October 22, 2025 • 36 mins
Donald Trump claims to be the President of Peace. But at home, he faces accusations of authoritarianism as protests sweep the country and the National Guard hits Portland.
From Gaza to Ukraine, and from Portland to Chicago, his foreign and domestic agendas are on a knife edge.
So, is Trump really the peacemaker he claims to be - or an authoritarian tightening his grip? Can America’s democracy withstand another Trump crackdown? And what does his vision of “law and order” mean for the rest of the world?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This isn't just a guy who's a little out of control, this is a
direct rise of an authoritarian regime.
The middle ground has been eroded in America, and you add
on top of that the fact that 75%of Republicans thought the 2020
election was indeed stolen or then you have a massive problem.
He's renamed the Department of Defence.
The Department of War seems a strange thing to do for the
(00:21):
peace president. The most chilling part of that,
Donald Trump essentially said we've got a war going on at
home. Public opinion is the last
barrier to authoritarianism. You've written before that
democracy and America are inextricable.
If it has changed, is there a way to put it back in the box?
(00:42):
Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Trump World.
I'm Anushka Astana and I'm in Washington DC.
And I'm Matt Fry and I'm in London, UK.
And today we're going to be talking about Donald Trump
abroad and at home Abroad, Matt,he's painting himself as the
president of peace. 8 wars ticked off his list, A 9th war
(01:04):
coming. Let's talk about the ninth war,
Ukraine in a minute. But I just wanna later in this
episode, contrast that with exactly what's happening here in
the US, where he has renamed theDepartment of Defence, the
Department of War, and made totally clear that that's so
that he can go to war with states inside the USA, states
(01:26):
largely run by Democratic governors and cities largely run
by Democratic mayors. And it is quite a contrast,
isn't it? But should we start with what's
happening overseas? Both in Gaza, where JD Vance has
rushed out to try and deal with things, and also what we've seen
overnight in Ukraine. I mean, let's start with Gaza
(01:48):
first of all. I went to a gathering last night
of UN types and many pro Palestinian kind of think tank
types and a very senior member of the government was there as
well who wanted to remain nameless.
But basically, they all came to the conclusion that the best
hope of this very fragile ceasefire surviving at all is
(02:08):
once again the weaponization of Trump's massive ego and his
vanity. He really needs the ceasefire to
work. If it collapses, whoever's to
blame, you know, and both sides will blame each other.
It looks bad for Trump, not justbecause he might not get his
Nobel Prize next year, but it's he owns this ceasefire, he owns
this deal. It bears his name.
(02:30):
It is a geopolitical, diplomaticbranding exercise of Trumpian
proportions. It's got to work.
So I think there is some hope here that even though Hamas has
not disarmed, in fact, more thannot disarming, they're kind of
showing off their arms in their uniforms by deploying on the
streets of Gaza and, as we said before, you know, shooting,
executing alleged collaborators and doing all sorts of things
(02:54):
that are really deeply unpleasant.
At the same time, you know, the ceasefire has been broken by
Israel as well, with 80 Palestinians dead so far.
That's a lot of dead people, youknow, in a, in a ceasefire
breakage. I mean, more people have been
killed by Israel breaking the ceasefire than have been killed
in Ukraine in the last week and the really, really heavy
bombardment. But to get back to the point, I
(03:14):
think he, I don't think we should give up on Trump, you
know, the ceasefire maker. Let's not call him the
peacemaker because as we know, there are lots of details that
haven't been discussed yet. I think that let's just think,
let's just hope that that's going to survive.
The more alarming thing is what he's been doing domestically,
but we'll get on to that in a minute.
And of course, that is the situation in the Middle East
(03:35):
where hostages are out. My my concerned with all of it.
And we've talked about this before, is whether he wants to
see it through to the end or whether his motivation was all
about getting the hostages out. I mean, you joke about the Nobel
Peace Prize. I do think still having it on
the table for next year. Well.
Very helpful, no? Useful motivation.
But but then he's got this idea that, you know, suddenly he can
(03:58):
deal with Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
And it, I mean, it is such a cliche, but it is so true that
the last person who's spoken to him is the the kind of view that
he brings out. So he has a call with Vladimir
Putin. Suddenly he's getting angrier
with Ukraine again. Suddenly there was the meeting
with President Zelensky on Friday in the White House.
(04:20):
It's sort of really interesting behind the scenes reporting from
the FT on all of that. Trump apparently getting really
angry in that meeting they keep.Putting the map on the floor by
Trump, Yeah. Really, Apparently, he said.
I've seen, I've seen this frontline enough, the map
basically showing just how much of Ukraine, Russia has invaded.
I mean, we have a situation now which I guess could lead us to a
(04:41):
position where at some point you'd hope that there would be a
ceasefire where Zelensky is saying it's a sensible
compromise to freeze things as they are now.
But a big meeting that was supposed to take place between
Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin in Budapest now looks like it's
often. We've had a situation overnight
where there's been a lot of attacks in both directions,
(05:03):
including Ukraine using British sent Storm Shadow missiles into
Russian territory and a number of children even being killed in
Ukraine from Russian strikes. How, how hopeful are you that
there can be any progress here, Matt?
Well, I think just to be fair toDonald Trump for a second, it's
not often that we say this words, but I think it's
important that we should on thisoccasion.
(05:24):
So I do think that he is absolutely authentic and genuine
when he comes to his wish to seepeace in Ukraine, you know, or
indeed to see a lasting ceasefire in Gaza.
I don't think he likes war, certainly not abroad.
I do think he wants that prize. I don't think he ever wants to
deploy American troops in any numbers in a foreign adventure
(05:47):
unless it's absolutely necessary.
And I think again, to be fair tohim, what happened from what I
gather talking to to diplomats here who I think are fairly well
sourced, to be honest, in this conversation that took place
last week was that yes, Donald Trump had a 2 1/2 hour
conversation with Putin. That's a very long conversation,
(06:09):
even if you allow for the duplication of, of translation
and stuff like that. And in that conversation,
basically Putin made the mistakethat he made in Alaska, is that
he essentially preached to Donald Trump his vision of
Russian and Ukrainian history, which is basically there's no
such thing as an independent Ukraine.
They're all basically Russians or little Russians as they used
(06:30):
to call them, you know, in the, you know, in Russian history.
So fine. I mean, Trump may not care about
Ukraine's independent history. I don't know.
I've not had that conversation with him.
But I think what he does care about is that he doesn't want to
be made a fool of by Putin. And Putin did insisted on
claiming the whole of the Donbass region, not just the
(06:50):
bits that Russia has occupied in, you know, 3 1/2 years of
war. Which we should say is most of,
we should say is most of that region, but the bit that's left
is really important to Ukraine. But he wants all of it, right?
He wants all of it because he's already declared that all of it
is already an integral part of Russia.
It's a Russian province now and and it looks a bit weird when
(07:11):
not all of it is actually in your hands.
And it it kind of, I would say to Vladimir Putin, if I could
forget about the last 15% of Donbass that you don't control.
But he clearly wants that. And for Trump, he says, hang on
a minute. You have, I'm imagining this.
I'm channelling Donald Trump in my mind.
You have barely moved the front line in the last three years of
war. Right now you want to win that
(07:34):
battle that you have failed to win on the battlefield.
In my head, by getting me to agree to something, which I know
because I have spoken to Zelensky quite a lot, I know
that they will never accept. So I think Trump in his own mind
has realized that there is a redline here for Ukraine that he
has to respect. And the Ukrainians have moved
quite a long distance towards accommodating Trump and his
(07:56):
particular vision. But Putin is not prepared to do
that. He doesn't want a ceasefire, not
at the moment. He wants to claim all of the
stuff that, you know, on paper he already owns, even if he
doesn't. And ultimately, he does not want
to see Ukraine as an independent, viable nation
state. And I think even Donald Trump
has understood, despite his lackof historical context, that that
is something that that's not going to work.
(08:18):
But of course, he's also impatient.
And he's impatient with that annoying President Zelensky, who
keeps saying no to, you know, to, to some of the stuff that he
comes up with. Yeah, and some of the language
you hear from Donald Trump does make me question what he
actually understands and wants from the outcome of this.
I mean, I noticed he he says quite a few times this should
have been over in a week, but hebasically says Russia should
(08:41):
have won in a week. So it's not like he's saying
Russia should never have invaded.
It's like he thinks Russia should have just done this and
done it quickly. There was some interesting
points where so there's, you know, for a blast, the areas on
the eastern side of Ukraine where Russia has made really big
inroads. Two of those a blast make up the
Donbass, which obviously is whatPutin would like to see the
(09:04):
whole of. But they've moved quite far, you
know, across that southern part of eastern Ukraine as well.
There was a suggestion that perhaps in return for getting
the extra bit of the Donbass, which partly for security
reasons, Ukraine is really, really anti getting that up
because they've got a big defensive that area.
Could could Russia move back in the other two?
(09:25):
A blast. And I thought it was an
interesting thing because at thetime of the Alaska summit that
you of course were at, some people were saying maybe a
compromise like that would be acceptable.
But that wasn't what Putin was talking about.
He was talking about freezing the line where it already was.
I don't think Russia have confirmed in any way that Putin
suggested to Trump on that call that he would move back in those
(09:46):
other two areas. But that was one thing I did
think sounded interesting. Very briefly, have you you heard
any more about whether Russia have actually suggested they
could move back in? Those, no, I, I can't confirm
that in any shape or form. And it's possible that it's one
of those compromises that has come up.
I think the, the point here is also, and this is something that
Fiona Hill, remember Fiona Hill,you know, originally from, from
(10:08):
County Durham, had been, has been living in the States for a
long time. She said to me on several
occasions, the big problem in this new White House is that
there are no Russia experts, at least no Russia experts that he
trusts as much as he trusts Steve Witkoff, you know who you
know is, at least as I heard this again, you know, from
someone last night who knows himquite well.
(10:28):
You know, he is able to admit when he doesn't know something,
he'll say, here's a blank piece of paper, tell me what I need to
know. But he's not a Russia expert.
He doesn't know how to deal withthe Russians.
You need people have been in theroom with the Russians a lot to
understand. They're very well honed, very
effective tactics of talking youinto the ground, of
waterboarding you with history and all the rest of it.
(10:49):
And there's no one like that to tell Donald Trump where he's
wrong or where he needs to spenda bit more time or be a bit more
reflective and to choose Budapest right as a venue for a
summit. It was so provocative in itself.
Not any. Is it a reminder of the Budapest
memorandum in which Ukraine gaveup its nukes after the fall of
(11:10):
the Soviet Union in return for security guarantees, which,
frankly, haven't been working out too well.
And for them to have that summitin Budapest without Zelensky
present would have been totally unacceptable from a diplomatic
point of view. So at least that one has been
kicked into the long grass. Yeah.
So in the meantime, on the basisof wanting to be the last person
in Donald Trump's here, Mark Rutter, the general secretary of
(11:33):
NATO, is coming over to the White House to meet.
Man who called him Daddy, right?So the sun is coming back to
Daddy. That's good.
Many think credit with having really shifted Donald Trump's
position on NATO and on Russia, Ukraine, can he shift it again?
So that will be happening. But look, while Donald Trump is
(11:54):
trying to be the peace presidentabroad, let's talk a bit about
what's happening here in the US As I said, he's renamed the
Department of Defense. The Department of War seems a
strange thing to do for the peace president.
Why does he do it? Well, you've heard it many, many
times, I thought, most remarkably, when he was speaking
to all those generals, American generals from the military that
he brought to Virginia to address, partly, as we've
(12:17):
discussed before, telling them to Pete Hagseth, the secretary
of war, was telling them to loseweight.
But what I thought was the most chilling part of that was where
Donald Trump essentially said tothem, we've got a war going on
at home in cities in the US. That's war as well.
It's the enemy within. That's what he's talked about
and we need to go and sort it out.
(12:38):
So just just to lay out what's actually happening in these
cities. And we've seen it in Los
Angeles, we've seen it in Chicago, we've seen it in
Portland. Very big legal ruling has just
happened on Portland. And there are protests that have
been taking place outside ICE facilities.
That's Immigration and Customs Enforcement facilities because
as as part of, you know, a big push to try and deport illegal
(13:02):
aliens, as Donald Trump called them, undocumented migrants, ICE
officers are, are literally in some cases snatching people off
the street in order to try to deport them.
So we've seen these protests. Donald Trump says these cities
are on fire. It's really clear, You know,
it's really clear that that is not the case.
If you take Portland as an example, there have been
(13:23):
protests on and off since June. They were particularly large in
June, 1 night, I think they wereactually described as a riot.
There have been one or two firesin that time that have been
very, very quickly put out. Donald Trump's argument is that
he is allowed to federalize the National Guard and send it into
American cities on the basis this is how legally you're
(13:45):
allowed to do it, either in the case of a foreign invasion.
Clearly, you can't argue that atthe moment.
Or a rebellion. So he's essentially arguing that
these cities are rebelling and also that in order for him to
bring law and order to these cities, he has to federalize the
National Guard. I mean, it is, it is quite
(14:05):
extraordinary. They've brought what they call
independent journalists to the White House to try and say that
Portland is on fire. Apparently, he's being shown
pictures of Portland on fire formost of the evenings.
I think there's been 200 protesters outside these ICE
facilities. As I say, no, no, real.
I mean, I think there's been a slight increase in Portland in
garden fires. I've been looking through the
(14:26):
data a reduction in building. Fires gone wrong.
Barbecue's gone wrong exactly, but that is his argument.
He's basically saying anyone whosays anything other than that is
wrong. There was a big protest in
Portland over the weekend, 40,000 I think marched but
again, largely peaceful but but a huge response from from the
(14:47):
government on that. What do you, what do you make of
it all? I mean, you obviously spent
eleven years here. Well, let's look.
There's never been anything likeit.
And I would broaden it out from,you know, the ICE raids, which
are very upsetting. And I witnessed quite a few.
And I was in Washington, you know, before you arrived at the
end of the summer, you know, literally ICE guys with their
masks parked outside Catholic schools, which means schools
(15:09):
where Hispanic kids go waiting to pick them up, you know, or
pick up the parents while the kids are in class.
I mean, this is just terrible stuff, right?
The National Guard is also really weird.
Deploying the National Guard in these big cities when they
haven't been invited by the governors is potentially A
constitutional crisis. It's not really happened for a
very, very long time. And then it was abandoned
(15:30):
because it's so it's so inflammatory and abrasive.
But I think the bigger picture, you know, and we'll, we'll talk
to our guest about this in a minute.
I think it's really alarming. It's alarming for me, certainly.
And it it may not be alarming for many Americans.
And that's also in itself quite interesting.
And the bigger picture is that you have a president who at home
(15:50):
has been trying to bend the Constitution, bend the laws or
ignore the laws or ignore Congress to channel executive
power. Like perhaps no president,
including, you know, Andrew Jackson in the middle of the
19th century has done before that, not in the history of the
Republic. And so, you know, it's the
(16:11):
deployment of the National Guard.
It's what ICE has allowed to do,you know, with an enormous
budget, bigger than the budget of most federal armies in most
countries that I know of what the Supreme Court has allowed
him to get away with. Because whenever there's a
ruling on, on, you know, an, an emergency order that he's
issued, a presidential order, it's challenged in the lower
(16:32):
courts. It goes to the Supreme Court on
what they call a shadow docket. So, you know, hurry up and and
rule on something that might notbe long term.
It may only last for a year or two.
They've always ruled in his favour, taking on the Free
Press, getting the Free Press toto pay, sometimes many cases in
order to carry on making money, taking on the judges, taking on
(16:53):
the universities. I mean, across the board.
We used to joke, Anushka, that you have to take him seriously
and not literally. It turns out you have to take
him really seriously and literally.
So the question is this for me, I honestly believe, and I think
lots of Americans do, especiallythe ones who turned up at the No
Kings demonstration of the weekends.
We'll talk about that as well. That American democracy is being
(17:15):
eroded, that Lady Liberty is being cut off at the legs.
You know, that the Constitution is being trampled on.
Why does only half the country care about that?
And I think we'll put a lot of that to our guests.
The journalist George Packer, who's a staff writer at The
Atlantic, written loads of books, and we'll be able to talk
to a lot of that. Just one final thing, and this
(17:37):
is a history point. One thing I find quite a bit
extraordinary is this big row that's taking place over whether
or not the president has the power to send the National Guard
into cities is based on something that happened in 1812.
You're going to have to stick with me here for a moment.
And it's a supreme, it's a Supreme Court judgement that
(17:58):
took place in 1827 and I hadn't quite clocked, but this is what
they're using as their justification for it.
And basically, and it involves ahorse always like a story that
that involves a horse, which wasthat basically Jacob Mott, who
was called up along with everyone else to be part of the
New York militia by by PresidentJames Madison at the time and
(18:22):
was court martialed and fined because he refused to take part
in it. And they took his horse away and
he sued because he wanted his horse back.
And in 1827, the Supreme Court basically ruled the that the
president had the power to make the decision for the New York
militia to go into, you know, into cities and to to deal with
(18:44):
this and not this individual. And that was what they kept
referencing in a recent court ruling as to why the president
now has the power to go into Chicago, Portland, LA,
Washington, DC and so on. And, and just at the moment, and
this is going back and forward in the courts and lower courts
(19:04):
have tried to block President Trump.
At the moment, a very major appeals court, the 9th Circuit,
which covers Oregon, but it alsocovers the whole of California
and a number of other states hassaid, but he does have the right
to do this. There was 1 dissenting judge.
The legal, the legal argument won't stop there.
But just to just put this in context quickly before we go to
(19:26):
our guests, you can't really compare what's happening in the
US now to what was happening in 1812.
I mean, it's a completely different situation and where
there very much was a foreign invasion in the eyes of the
Americans and one individual's decision not to take part in
that compared to governors of major states saying we don't
(19:48):
want you here. Well, you're right.
And also the thing, the thing about American history is that
there's not that much of it. I mean, 250 years, but boys, it
raided by both sides, you know, to suit their purposes.
I mean the, you know, the right to bear arms.
The Second Amendment to the Constitution, you know, was was
written at a time when you couldn't buy an, you know, an
M16 and an AR15, which are basically weapons of war, modern
(20:10):
weapons of war for the battlefield.
You know, at at your local gun shop in wherever you were living
in the then United States. Just one of his one other since
we're on history in Russia. One other tiny little point.
I was really struck yesterday bypictures of the East.
West Wing of the White House. Not The West Wing that we all
know about, but the East Wing. East Wing, which is where the
First Lady traditionally has heroffices being munched away by
(20:33):
massive diggers and jackhammers,right?
This is in order to make room for Trump's big beautiful
ballroom now. Fine, right?
He's a builder. He likes big beautiful
ballrooms. Let him build his big beautiful
ballroom. Maybe future presidents would
appreciate that. But the fact that he has the
cojones to use, you know, a Native American term to tear
(20:54):
down bits of the White House, which has, you know, even if
it's for a good reason or I'm not sure whether the ballroom is
a good enough reason. It's, it's it's, you know, it's
causing for very sharp intakes of breath.
And it kind of sums up Trump's attitude towards all of American
history and the Constitution. You know, tear it down and tear
it up if it suits you. Well, let's talk to our guest,
(21:15):
George Packer, staff writer at The Atlantic, author of 10
books, about to Be 11, includingThe Unwinding and In the History
of the New America. And George, next month, a new
novel called The Emergency, a political novel, one that you'll
have to tell us maybe doesn't indoesn't involve President Trump
(21:36):
himself, but certainly has a sense of it.
And you've obviously written loads about the impact that this
Trump presidency is having on democracy.
Congrats on the new book. Can I just start by asking you
something? I've very recently moved to
Washington, DC from the UK. And of course, everywhere I
look, I sort of almost can't believe some of the things that
(21:58):
the administration are talking about or doing.
But I've, I've heard you talk and I think it's really
interesting about the fact that you don't necessarily feel
what's going on as an individualliving in this country.
It's not like the impact of democracy being eroded in the
way that many feel it is, is part of our everyday lives.
(22:18):
Tell, tell me a bit about that. And also, does that make a
difference to how everyone's reacting to it?
Thanks Anoushka. This is not 1933.
You know, we, we don't suddenly have a a dark curtain falling
over our lives. Life goes on.
I can criticize the Trump administration every day and not
get a knock at the door because I don't look Latino.
(22:41):
I can walk down the street without fear of being grabbed
and pulled into a van by masked men.
So unless you are in a small group of people who are maybe
federal officials who've fallen afoul of Trump, or, or if you're
a migrant who might have some legal issue or even no legal
(23:01):
issue, you don't feel that you personally are affected.
And that's a problem. It's a huge problem because that
means the vast majority of Americans can go about their
lives and sort of say this isn'treally a big deal.
It's not happening to me. It's not happening to anyone I
know. I don't know what an Inspector
General is. I don't know what the Eastern
(23:22):
District of Virginia is and why it matters.
So why should we imagine that something as as huge as a threat
to democracy is even happening? But it is happening.
It's just not happening to to you, to us.
And that means you have to have an imagination.
You have to be able to sift through all the information we
(23:44):
all get in order to figure out what's true.
And you also have to care. You still have to believe in
democracy in order for this to matter to you.
But there are a lot of other Americans who may have voted for
him, who watching what he's doing, including the brutal way
in which immigration is being enforced.
It just happened in downtown NewYork, in lower Manhattan
(24:06):
yesterday. It's going to keep happening in
New York will be a big target for ICE.
They don't. They're not easy.
With that. There is a residual sense that
maybe there is something called due process.
Maybe there is something called common decency.
Maybe we don't want to see our president airing AI videos of
himself piloting a fighter jet and dumping an immense load of
(24:29):
excrement on people in Times Square.
You know it it. We don't know exactly where the
people are because we haven't had an election since last year.
And we will find a lot more out next year.
But I think we, I was at the no pings rally on Saturday, the
nationwide rallies. I was at one in a little town in
upstate New York. There were hundreds, maybe
(24:50):
thousands of people in a very small town and across the
country, possibly 7 million. That's a lot of people to come
out on a Saturday to demonstrate.
I think there is still a a kind of archaic attachment to this
thing called the Constitution and democracy that may get woken
up because Trump knows no limits.
(25:11):
But do you? But, you know, that resistance
that you're talking about? I, I see it all the time.
I see in terms of the disagreement on this, the divide
is more stark than anything I'veever seen.
People will either tell you how much they love him or they, they
are so upset about his presidency.
It's, you know, unreal. The reality is that, you know,
(25:31):
70 million people can feel the way you feel, but 77 million
could still vote for him. And I guess my question is, I
think you've written before thatdemocracy and America are
inextricable. Has that changed?
And if it has changed, is there a way to put it back in the box
(25:52):
at the end of this? I fear that the the idea of
America about our national identity as based on the first
words of the Declaration of Independence, which to me is the
the foundation of the country, that those words have lost some
of their hold on people, especially young people who
(26:13):
don't think they're true, who don't think they mean anything.
They don't think the country stands for that.
And that's on the right and the left.
Both sides have weakened that hold of those universal
democratic values of equality, self government, liberty, the
pursuit of happiness. And so how do you restore it?
I I don't have an answer for that, that that's an enormous
(26:36):
question. One way is for government to
work on behalf of people. If people feel that their
government is this far away thing that is either choking a
life out of them or indifferent to their problems, why would
they think democracy is the onlysystem that that's worth
supporting? They may think it isn't working
for me. So maybe we should try a little
(26:56):
authoritarianism and see if Trump can lower the price of
eggs and and raise the stock market.
So, yeah, it's it worries me a great deal.
And of course, this isn't new. We've always had this vexed
attachment to those ideals. We've often betrayed them.
But we've always returned to a notion of who we are as a people
(27:20):
and that we are a democratic people.
I don't know how you get back tothat, but because I've never
lived through a period in my life that in which it was so at
risk, but it is at risk. I guess one thing also is that
this sort of idea of democracy, although it is, you know, we
both understand what it means, is what does it actually look
(27:42):
like for a democracy to be eroded?
What are the specific things that are happening at the moment
that worry you the most? I mean, the most dramatic has
been the president using the Department of Justice to
prosecute his his enemies quite nakedly ordering prosecutors to
go after a list of people he considers his enemies, his
(28:03):
persecutors, regardless of whether career prosecutors or
even political appointees found that there was no 'cause.
Which is what's happened again and again.
He's just gone through one afteranother till he finds one
corrupt hack who's willing to use the tools of the law, the
immense power of the state to goafter a political enemy for for
(28:23):
no legal reason. And that to me is maybe the
single most vivid example of howwe're seeing the abuse of power
in the most dramatic way. Once you use the state, which is
so powerful to settle scores, there's really, I mean, where's
(28:45):
the limit then? Who won't you go after?
I think he will continue to do it because he's gotten away with
it. He's found people to do it.
He's found people in civil society, whether university
presidents, corporate CE OS or law firm executives to cooperate
with extortion schemes, essentially with him demanding
(29:07):
certain ideological conformity in exchange for federal money.
So again, if you if if you find that there's no push back,
there's no resistance, you push harder and push harder again.
And that's what he's been doing all year.
Because I think a good deal of the country is sort of in shock,
is not doesn't know how to respond.
And he has been on the offensivefrom the moment he got back into
(29:31):
the White House. And so it it, it requires an
understanding of what's happening, of a lucid sense that
this isn't just a guy who's a little out of control.
This isn't a direct rise of an authoritarian regime that needs
to be resisted if it is not going to permanently really for
(29:52):
a generation or more, as Orban has done in Hungary.
You mentioned him, Anouska or Matt, I can't remember which.
As Orban has done as Erdogan hasdone.
Once you go down that road, it'sextremely hard to reverse
course. Can I ask you, George, why, Why
you think the Republican Party, you know, the Grand Old Party,
the party of Abraham Lincoln, ofTeddy Roosevelt, who's put up
(30:16):
with this? Yeah, well, there's a long list
of Republican former office holders who are now in other
lines of work because they stoodup to Trump.
And it seems that for a politician losing office, losing
an election is death. And so they'll do anything,
including betray their oath, betray their commitment to their
(30:38):
constituents and betray everything that's decent about
being in politics in order to stay in office.
And that means doing whatever Trump wants because he made the
price so high. And so, yeah, the party has
become it's, it's a bunch of cowards, I'm sorry to say.
It's a bunch of cowards who havebecome his sycophants and his.
Yes. And it's, we see it over and
(30:59):
over. And that is the other half of
our constitutional problem. Congress is no longer acting
like a separate branch of government.
So there's only an executive. And I just wonder to what extent
this is exacerbated by the way, you know, American elections
take place that you have, you know, most, the vast majority of
congressional seats aren't even competitive between Democrats
(31:21):
and Republicans. They're competitive within the
Democratic Party, as we we saw in New York or within the
Republican Party, which is when you can mobilize that Trumpian
threat to not get someone, you know, nominated.
So the combination of the primary cycle, which really
favours the kind of people who shout loudest in the party, the
algorithm of social media and the way cable television works
(31:44):
where you're either with one side or the other side.
And if you look at Fox TV and MSNBC on each day, you might as
well be living in different galaxies, let alone countries.
All that conspires to make it more divided and more tribal.
You're right, when you have a two party system and a first
past the post electoral system and politics has become
(32:07):
absolutely tribal and in which there really is no independence
allowed for politicians, they have to be party men or party
women. You're going to have a system in
which nothing can get done because the two sides only see
victory in the others defeat notjust in the election but in
governing. If there were to be a compromise
(32:27):
bill of any kind, Trump would hate it.
He doesn't want to compromise. He wants to exert power.
And and the Democrats now are ina position where they have very
little power, which makes it seem as if there's no opposition
to Trump at all, except for these rather dignified and
earnest rallies every few monthscalled No King.
Joe, just a a final question forme.
(32:49):
Are you hopeful at all? It doesn't sound like it.
I mean, if the American people wake up to what's happening and
there is still a broad middle, what we're describing are the
extremes. They're the people you hear on
social media. They're the people who make
primary campaigns A misery for anyone who wants to think
(33:09):
independently. But there is still a middle that
can be persuaded and that swingsbetween elections.
We've seen that over and over inthe past 20 years.
If those Americans understand the gravity of the situation,
that this isn't just one more cycle with one party in power,
(33:30):
then I think in the next election, in the midterms, if
it's free and fair. And that's a big if right now.
And then again in 28 with the presidential election.
Public opinion is the last barrier to authoritarianism in
this country. And we haven't really heard from
the public. But the pendulum swings wider
every time, doesn't it? And isn't that the danger?
(33:50):
You go to the further to the left, which means a reaction
from the right, and the middle ground actually gets squeezed in
all this. Well, Joe Biden was actually the
middle ground. He was the most centrist
Democrat running for president in 2020.
You remember there was a whole array of other candidates to his
left, and they all lost, which shows that at that point, the
(34:11):
Democratic Party was sane enoughto understand that to beat
Trump, they couldn't go to theirfringe.
They had to occupy the center. But Biden was a failed president
for a lot of reasons that we know.
And Trump came back with an evenmore vengeful retributive
politics than before and with a more extreme base than before
(34:33):
because social media cable news had made turned everyone into
into an extreme partisan. So how do you undo that?
You know, this is a much longer conversation.
I wish I had the answer and I would put it into practice
immediately because I'm really worried the.
Extreme centre. The extreme centre, George.
That's what we need. Old.
(34:53):
Centre, the radical centre. The radical centre.
Exactly. George, thank you so much.
George Packer, author of Many Books of The Atlantic, thank you
very much for joining us. Thanks for having me.
So that was George Packer, Matt,I would say not loads of hope
there. Are you hopeful?
(35:14):
I don't know, the jury's out. I do think that, you know, the
centre ground, the, the, the numbers of people are kind of
willing to engage in that very boring but rather important
concept of consensus is dwindling.
And remember, this is a country that, you know, had a civil war.
America lost more people in the civil war in percentage and real
terms than it did in any other conflict it ever fought.
(35:35):
And that that civil war still haunts the country.
When I first got to America, thebeginning of the noughties,
everyone said to me, oh, you know, this is a bipartisan
effort. It was all about Democrats and
Republicans working together, even though they were frictions
at the time. But I think that's all gone.
I think there's more political capital to be gained out of
division, and that includes the left.
(35:56):
And let's you know this, this race in New York between Zoran
Mandami and Andrew Cuomo, who's going to run as an independent,
that's so fascinating because that's about the same issue
playing out inside the Democratic Party.
And I don't know. So I'd say, is America going to
be a democracy in 20 years time from now?
Maybe, but probably somewhat diminished to what it should be.
(36:20):
What a depressing thing to end on.
We will. We will certainly be talking
about that New York race over the next couple of weeks.
I'm already planning when we're going to go up and cover it.
So there'll be lots on that to come.
But that is it for this week from Trump World.
We will see you next Wednesday. We'll see you next Wednesday, as
(36:40):
we always do from Anushka in Washington and me in London.
Have a fabulous week.
This isn't just a guy who's a little out of control, this is a
direct rise of an authoritarian regime.
The middle ground has been eroded in America, and you add
on top of that the fact that 75%of Republicans thought the 2020
election was indeed stolen or then you have a massive problem.
He's renamed the Department of Defence.
The Department of War seems a strange thing to do for the
(00:21):
peace president. The most chilling part of that,
Donald Trump essentially said we've got a war going on at
home. Public opinion is the last
barrier to authoritarianism. You've written before that
democracy and America are inextricable.
If it has changed, is there a way to put it back in the box?
(00:42):
Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Trump World.
I'm Anushka Astana and I'm in Washington DC.
And I'm Matt Fry and I'm in London, UK.
And today we're going to be talking about Donald Trump
abroad and at home Abroad, Matt,he's painting himself as the
president of peace. 8 wars ticked off his list, A 9th war
(01:04):
coming. Let's talk about the ninth war,
Ukraine in a minute. But I just wanna later in this
episode, contrast that with exactly what's happening here in
the US, where he has renamed theDepartment of Defence, the
Department of War, and made totally clear that that's so
that he can go to war with states inside the USA, states
(01:26):
largely run by Democratic governors and cities largely run
by Democratic mayors. And it is quite a contrast,
isn't it? But should we start with what's
happening overseas? Both in Gaza, where JD Vance has
rushed out to try and deal with things, and also what we've seen
overnight in Ukraine. I mean, let's start with Gaza
(01:48):
first of all. I went to a gathering last night
of UN types and many pro Palestinian kind of think tank
types and a very senior member of the government was there as
well who wanted to remain nameless.
But basically, they all came to the conclusion that the best
hope of this very fragile ceasefire surviving at all is
(02:08):
once again the weaponization of Trump's massive ego and his
vanity. He really needs the ceasefire to
work. If it collapses, whoever's to
blame, you know, and both sides will blame each other.
It looks bad for Trump, not justbecause he might not get his
Nobel Prize next year, but it's he owns this ceasefire, he owns
this deal. It bears his name.
(02:30):
It is a geopolitical, diplomaticbranding exercise of Trumpian
proportions. It's got to work.
So I think there is some hope here that even though Hamas has
not disarmed, in fact, more thannot disarming, they're kind of
showing off their arms in their uniforms by deploying on the
streets of Gaza and, as we said before, you know, shooting,
executing alleged collaborators and doing all sorts of things
(02:54):
that are really deeply unpleasant.
At the same time, you know, the ceasefire has been broken by
Israel as well, with 80 Palestinians dead so far.
That's a lot of dead people, youknow, in a, in a ceasefire
breakage. I mean, more people have been
killed by Israel breaking the ceasefire than have been killed
in Ukraine in the last week and the really, really heavy
bombardment. But to get back to the point, I
(03:14):
think he, I don't think we should give up on Trump, you
know, the ceasefire maker. Let's not call him the
peacemaker because as we know, there are lots of details that
haven't been discussed yet. I think that let's just think,
let's just hope that that's going to survive.
The more alarming thing is what he's been doing domestically,
but we'll get on to that in a minute.
And of course, that is the situation in the Middle East
(03:35):
where hostages are out. My my concerned with all of it.
And we've talked about this before, is whether he wants to
see it through to the end or whether his motivation was all
about getting the hostages out. I mean, you joke about the Nobel
Peace Prize. I do think still having it on
the table for next year. Well.
Very helpful, no? Useful motivation.
But but then he's got this idea that, you know, suddenly he can
(03:58):
deal with Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
And it, I mean, it is such a cliche, but it is so true that
the last person who's spoken to him is the the kind of view that
he brings out. So he has a call with Vladimir
Putin. Suddenly he's getting angrier
with Ukraine again. Suddenly there was the meeting
with President Zelensky on Friday in the White House.
(04:20):
It's sort of really interesting behind the scenes reporting from
the FT on all of that. Trump apparently getting really
angry in that meeting they keep.Putting the map on the floor by
Trump, Yeah. Really, Apparently, he said.
I've seen, I've seen this frontline enough, the map
basically showing just how much of Ukraine, Russia has invaded.
I mean, we have a situation now which I guess could lead us to a
(04:41):
position where at some point you'd hope that there would be a
ceasefire where Zelensky is saying it's a sensible
compromise to freeze things as they are now.
But a big meeting that was supposed to take place between
Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin in Budapest now looks like it's
often. We've had a situation overnight
where there's been a lot of attacks in both directions,
(05:03):
including Ukraine using British sent Storm Shadow missiles into
Russian territory and a number of children even being killed in
Ukraine from Russian strikes. How, how hopeful are you that
there can be any progress here, Matt?
Well, I think just to be fair toDonald Trump for a second, it's
not often that we say this words, but I think it's
important that we should on thisoccasion.
(05:24):
So I do think that he is absolutely authentic and genuine
when he comes to his wish to seepeace in Ukraine, you know, or
indeed to see a lasting ceasefire in Gaza.
I don't think he likes war, certainly not abroad.
I do think he wants that prize. I don't think he ever wants to
deploy American troops in any numbers in a foreign adventure
(05:47):
unless it's absolutely necessary.
And I think again, to be fair tohim, what happened from what I
gather talking to to diplomats here who I think are fairly well
sourced, to be honest, in this conversation that took place
last week was that yes, Donald Trump had a 2 1/2 hour
conversation with Putin. That's a very long conversation,
(06:09):
even if you allow for the duplication of, of translation
and stuff like that. And in that conversation,
basically Putin made the mistakethat he made in Alaska, is that
he essentially preached to Donald Trump his vision of
Russian and Ukrainian history, which is basically there's no
such thing as an independent Ukraine.
They're all basically Russians or little Russians as they used
(06:30):
to call them, you know, in the, you know, in Russian history.
So fine. I mean, Trump may not care about
Ukraine's independent history. I don't know.
I've not had that conversation with him.
But I think what he does care about is that he doesn't want to
be made a fool of by Putin. And Putin did insisted on
claiming the whole of the Donbass region, not just the
(06:50):
bits that Russia has occupied in, you know, 3 1/2 years of
war. Which we should say is most of,
we should say is most of that region, but the bit that's left
is really important to Ukraine. But he wants all of it, right?
He wants all of it because he's already declared that all of it
is already an integral part of Russia.
It's a Russian province now and and it looks a bit weird when
(07:11):
not all of it is actually in your hands.
And it it kind of, I would say to Vladimir Putin, if I could
forget about the last 15% of Donbass that you don't control.
But he clearly wants that. And for Trump, he says, hang on
a minute. You have, I'm imagining this.
I'm channelling Donald Trump in my mind.
You have barely moved the front line in the last three years of
war. Right now you want to win that
(07:34):
battle that you have failed to win on the battlefield.
In my head, by getting me to agree to something, which I know
because I have spoken to Zelensky quite a lot, I know
that they will never accept. So I think Trump in his own mind
has realized that there is a redline here for Ukraine that he
has to respect. And the Ukrainians have moved
quite a long distance towards accommodating Trump and his
(07:56):
particular vision. But Putin is not prepared to do
that. He doesn't want a ceasefire, not
at the moment. He wants to claim all of the
stuff that, you know, on paper he already owns, even if he
doesn't. And ultimately, he does not want
to see Ukraine as an independent, viable nation
state. And I think even Donald Trump
has understood, despite his lackof historical context, that that
is something that that's not going to work.
(08:18):
But of course, he's also impatient.
And he's impatient with that annoying President Zelensky, who
keeps saying no to, you know, to, to some of the stuff that he
comes up with. Yeah, and some of the language
you hear from Donald Trump does make me question what he
actually understands and wants from the outcome of this.
I mean, I noticed he he says quite a few times this should
have been over in a week, but hebasically says Russia should
(08:41):
have won in a week. So it's not like he's saying
Russia should never have invaded.
It's like he thinks Russia should have just done this and
done it quickly. There was some interesting
points where so there's, you know, for a blast, the areas on
the eastern side of Ukraine where Russia has made really big
inroads. Two of those a blast make up the
Donbass, which obviously is whatPutin would like to see the
(09:04):
whole of. But they've moved quite far, you
know, across that southern part of eastern Ukraine as well.
There was a suggestion that perhaps in return for getting
the extra bit of the Donbass, which partly for security
reasons, Ukraine is really, really anti getting that up
because they've got a big defensive that area.
Could could Russia move back in the other two?
(09:25):
A blast. And I thought it was an
interesting thing because at thetime of the Alaska summit that
you of course were at, some people were saying maybe a
compromise like that would be acceptable.
But that wasn't what Putin was talking about.
He was talking about freezing the line where it already was.
I don't think Russia have confirmed in any way that Putin
suggested to Trump on that call that he would move back in those
(09:46):
other two areas. But that was one thing I did
think sounded interesting. Very briefly, have you you heard
any more about whether Russia have actually suggested they
could move back in? Those, no, I, I can't confirm
that in any shape or form. And it's possible that it's one
of those compromises that has come up.
I think the, the point here is also, and this is something that
Fiona Hill, remember Fiona Hill,you know, originally from, from
(10:08):
County Durham, had been, has been living in the States for a
long time. She said to me on several
occasions, the big problem in this new White House is that
there are no Russia experts, at least no Russia experts that he
trusts as much as he trusts Steve Witkoff, you know who you
know is, at least as I heard this again, you know, from
someone last night who knows himquite well.
(10:28):
You know, he is able to admit when he doesn't know something,
he'll say, here's a blank piece of paper, tell me what I need to
know. But he's not a Russia expert.
He doesn't know how to deal withthe Russians.
You need people have been in theroom with the Russians a lot to
understand. They're very well honed, very
effective tactics of talking youinto the ground, of
waterboarding you with history and all the rest of it.
(10:49):
And there's no one like that to tell Donald Trump where he's
wrong or where he needs to spenda bit more time or be a bit more
reflective and to choose Budapest right as a venue for a
summit. It was so provocative in itself.
Not any. Is it a reminder of the Budapest
memorandum in which Ukraine gaveup its nukes after the fall of
(11:10):
the Soviet Union in return for security guarantees, which,
frankly, haven't been working out too well.
And for them to have that summitin Budapest without Zelensky
present would have been totally unacceptable from a diplomatic
point of view. So at least that one has been
kicked into the long grass. Yeah.
So in the meantime, on the basisof wanting to be the last person
in Donald Trump's here, Mark Rutter, the general secretary of
(11:33):
NATO, is coming over to the White House to meet.
Man who called him Daddy, right?So the sun is coming back to
Daddy. That's good.
Many think credit with having really shifted Donald Trump's
position on NATO and on Russia, Ukraine, can he shift it again?
So that will be happening. But look, while Donald Trump is
(11:54):
trying to be the peace presidentabroad, let's talk a bit about
what's happening here in the US As I said, he's renamed the
Department of Defense. The Department of War seems a
strange thing to do for the peace president.
Why does he do it? Well, you've heard it many, many
times, I thought, most remarkably, when he was speaking
to all those generals, American generals from the military that
he brought to Virginia to address, partly, as we've
(12:17):
discussed before, telling them to Pete Hagseth, the secretary
of war, was telling them to loseweight.
But what I thought was the most chilling part of that was where
Donald Trump essentially said tothem, we've got a war going on
at home in cities in the US. That's war as well.
It's the enemy within. That's what he's talked about
and we need to go and sort it out.
(12:38):
So just just to lay out what's actually happening in these
cities. And we've seen it in Los
Angeles, we've seen it in Chicago, we've seen it in
Portland. Very big legal ruling has just
happened on Portland. And there are protests that have
been taking place outside ICE facilities.
That's Immigration and Customs Enforcement facilities because
as as part of, you know, a big push to try and deport illegal
(13:02):
aliens, as Donald Trump called them, undocumented migrants, ICE
officers are, are literally in some cases snatching people off
the street in order to try to deport them.
So we've seen these protests. Donald Trump says these cities
are on fire. It's really clear, You know,
it's really clear that that is not the case.
If you take Portland as an example, there have been
(13:23):
protests on and off since June. They were particularly large in
June, 1 night, I think they wereactually described as a riot.
There have been one or two firesin that time that have been
very, very quickly put out. Donald Trump's argument is that
he is allowed to federalize the National Guard and send it into
American cities on the basis this is how legally you're
(13:45):
allowed to do it, either in the case of a foreign invasion.
Clearly, you can't argue that atthe moment.
Or a rebellion. So he's essentially arguing that
these cities are rebelling and also that in order for him to
bring law and order to these cities, he has to federalize the
National Guard. I mean, it is, it is quite
(14:05):
extraordinary. They've brought what they call
independent journalists to the White House to try and say that
Portland is on fire. Apparently, he's being shown
pictures of Portland on fire formost of the evenings.
I think there's been 200 protesters outside these ICE
facilities. As I say, no, no, real.
I mean, I think there's been a slight increase in Portland in
garden fires. I've been looking through the
(14:26):
data a reduction in building. Fires gone wrong.
Barbecue's gone wrong exactly, but that is his argument.
He's basically saying anyone whosays anything other than that is
wrong. There was a big protest in
Portland over the weekend, 40,000 I think marched but
again, largely peaceful but but a huge response from from the
(14:47):
government on that. What do you, what do you make of
it all? I mean, you obviously spent
eleven years here. Well, let's look.
There's never been anything likeit.
And I would broaden it out from,you know, the ICE raids, which
are very upsetting. And I witnessed quite a few.
And I was in Washington, you know, before you arrived at the
end of the summer, you know, literally ICE guys with their
masks parked outside Catholic schools, which means schools
(15:09):
where Hispanic kids go waiting to pick them up, you know, or
pick up the parents while the kids are in class.
I mean, this is just terrible stuff, right?
The National Guard is also really weird.
Deploying the National Guard in these big cities when they
haven't been invited by the governors is potentially A
constitutional crisis. It's not really happened for a
very, very long time. And then it was abandoned
(15:30):
because it's so it's so inflammatory and abrasive.
But I think the bigger picture, you know, and we'll, we'll talk
to our guest about this in a minute.
I think it's really alarming. It's alarming for me, certainly.
And it it may not be alarming for many Americans.
And that's also in itself quite interesting.
And the bigger picture is that you have a president who at home
(15:50):
has been trying to bend the Constitution, bend the laws or
ignore the laws or ignore Congress to channel executive
power. Like perhaps no president,
including, you know, Andrew Jackson in the middle of the
19th century has done before that, not in the history of the
Republic. And so, you know, it's the
(16:11):
deployment of the National Guard.
It's what ICE has allowed to do,you know, with an enormous
budget, bigger than the budget of most federal armies in most
countries that I know of what the Supreme Court has allowed
him to get away with. Because whenever there's a
ruling on, on, you know, an, an emergency order that he's
issued, a presidential order, it's challenged in the lower
(16:32):
courts. It goes to the Supreme Court on
what they call a shadow docket. So, you know, hurry up and and
rule on something that might notbe long term.
It may only last for a year or two.
They've always ruled in his favour, taking on the Free
Press, getting the Free Press toto pay, sometimes many cases in
order to carry on making money, taking on the judges, taking on
(16:53):
the universities. I mean, across the board.
We used to joke, Anushka, that you have to take him seriously
and not literally. It turns out you have to take
him really seriously and literally.
So the question is this for me, I honestly believe, and I think
lots of Americans do, especiallythe ones who turned up at the No
Kings demonstration of the weekends.
We'll talk about that as well. That American democracy is being
(17:15):
eroded, that Lady Liberty is being cut off at the legs.
You know, that the Constitution is being trampled on.
Why does only half the country care about that?
And I think we'll put a lot of that to our guests.
The journalist George Packer, who's a staff writer at The
Atlantic, written loads of books, and we'll be able to talk
to a lot of that. Just one final thing, and this
(17:37):
is a history point. One thing I find quite a bit
extraordinary is this big row that's taking place over whether
or not the president has the power to send the National Guard
into cities is based on something that happened in 1812.
You're going to have to stick with me here for a moment.
And it's a supreme, it's a Supreme Court judgement that
(17:58):
took place in 1827 and I hadn't quite clocked, but this is what
they're using as their justification for it.
And basically, and it involves ahorse always like a story that
that involves a horse, which wasthat basically Jacob Mott, who
was called up along with everyone else to be part of the
New York militia by by PresidentJames Madison at the time and
(18:22):
was court martialed and fined because he refused to take part
in it. And they took his horse away and
he sued because he wanted his horse back.
And in 1827, the Supreme Court basically ruled the that the
president had the power to make the decision for the New York
militia to go into, you know, into cities and to to deal with
(18:44):
this and not this individual. And that was what they kept
referencing in a recent court ruling as to why the president
now has the power to go into Chicago, Portland, LA,
Washington, DC and so on. And, and just at the moment, and
this is going back and forward in the courts and lower courts
(19:04):
have tried to block President Trump.
At the moment, a very major appeals court, the 9th Circuit,
which covers Oregon, but it alsocovers the whole of California
and a number of other states hassaid, but he does have the right
to do this. There was 1 dissenting judge.
The legal, the legal argument won't stop there.
But just to just put this in context quickly before we go to
(19:26):
our guests, you can't really compare what's happening in the
US now to what was happening in 1812.
I mean, it's a completely different situation and where
there very much was a foreign invasion in the eyes of the
Americans and one individual's decision not to take part in
that compared to governors of major states saying we don't
(19:48):
want you here. Well, you're right.
And also the thing, the thing about American history is that
there's not that much of it. I mean, 250 years, but boys, it
raided by both sides, you know, to suit their purposes.
I mean the, you know, the right to bear arms.
The Second Amendment to the Constitution, you know, was was
written at a time when you couldn't buy an, you know, an
M16 and an AR15, which are basically weapons of war, modern
(20:10):
weapons of war for the battlefield.
You know, at at your local gun shop in wherever you were living
in the then United States. Just one of his one other since
we're on history in Russia. One other tiny little point.
I was really struck yesterday bypictures of the East.
West Wing of the White House. Not The West Wing that we all
know about, but the East Wing. East Wing, which is where the
First Lady traditionally has heroffices being munched away by
(20:33):
massive diggers and jackhammers,right?
This is in order to make room for Trump's big beautiful
ballroom now. Fine, right?
He's a builder. He likes big beautiful
ballrooms. Let him build his big beautiful
ballroom. Maybe future presidents would
appreciate that. But the fact that he has the
cojones to use, you know, a Native American term to tear
(20:54):
down bits of the White House, which has, you know, even if
it's for a good reason or I'm not sure whether the ballroom is
a good enough reason. It's, it's it's, you know, it's
causing for very sharp intakes of breath.
And it kind of sums up Trump's attitude towards all of American
history and the Constitution. You know, tear it down and tear
it up if it suits you. Well, let's talk to our guest,
(21:15):
George Packer, staff writer at The Atlantic, author of 10
books, about to Be 11, includingThe Unwinding and In the History
of the New America. And George, next month, a new
novel called The Emergency, a political novel, one that you'll
have to tell us maybe doesn't indoesn't involve President Trump
(21:36):
himself, but certainly has a sense of it.
And you've obviously written loads about the impact that this
Trump presidency is having on democracy.
Congrats on the new book. Can I just start by asking you
something? I've very recently moved to
Washington, DC from the UK. And of course, everywhere I
look, I sort of almost can't believe some of the things that
(21:58):
the administration are talking about or doing.
But I've, I've heard you talk and I think it's really
interesting about the fact that you don't necessarily feel
what's going on as an individualliving in this country.
It's not like the impact of democracy being eroded in the
way that many feel it is, is part of our everyday lives.
(22:18):
Tell, tell me a bit about that. And also, does that make a
difference to how everyone's reacting to it?
Thanks Anoushka. This is not 1933.
You know, we, we don't suddenly have a a dark curtain falling
over our lives. Life goes on.
I can criticize the Trump administration every day and not
get a knock at the door because I don't look Latino.
(22:41):
I can walk down the street without fear of being grabbed
and pulled into a van by masked men.
So unless you are in a small group of people who are maybe
federal officials who've fallen afoul of Trump, or, or if you're
a migrant who might have some legal issue or even no legal
(23:01):
issue, you don't feel that you personally are affected.
And that's a problem. It's a huge problem because that
means the vast majority of Americans can go about their
lives and sort of say this isn'treally a big deal.
It's not happening to me. It's not happening to anyone I
know. I don't know what an Inspector
General is. I don't know what the Eastern
(23:22):
District of Virginia is and why it matters.
So why should we imagine that something as as huge as a threat
to democracy is even happening? But it is happening.
It's just not happening to to you, to us.
And that means you have to have an imagination.
You have to be able to sift through all the information we
(23:44):
all get in order to figure out what's true.
And you also have to care. You still have to believe in
democracy in order for this to matter to you.
But there are a lot of other Americans who may have voted for
him, who watching what he's doing, including the brutal way
in which immigration is being enforced.
It just happened in downtown NewYork, in lower Manhattan
(24:06):
yesterday. It's going to keep happening in
New York will be a big target for ICE.
They don't. They're not easy.
With that. There is a residual sense that
maybe there is something called due process.
Maybe there is something called common decency.
Maybe we don't want to see our president airing AI videos of
himself piloting a fighter jet and dumping an immense load of
(24:29):
excrement on people in Times Square.
You know it it. We don't know exactly where the
people are because we haven't had an election since last year.
And we will find a lot more out next year.
But I think we, I was at the no pings rally on Saturday, the
nationwide rallies. I was at one in a little town in
upstate New York. There were hundreds, maybe
(24:50):
thousands of people in a very small town and across the
country, possibly 7 million. That's a lot of people to come
out on a Saturday to demonstrate.
I think there is still a a kind of archaic attachment to this
thing called the Constitution and democracy that may get woken
up because Trump knows no limits.
(25:11):
But do you? But, you know, that resistance
that you're talking about? I, I see it all the time.
I see in terms of the disagreement on this, the divide
is more stark than anything I'veever seen.
People will either tell you how much they love him or they, they
are so upset about his presidency.
It's, you know, unreal. The reality is that, you know,
(25:31):
70 million people can feel the way you feel, but 77 million
could still vote for him. And I guess my question is, I
think you've written before thatdemocracy and America are
inextricable. Has that changed?
And if it has changed, is there a way to put it back in the box
(25:52):
at the end of this? I fear that the the idea of
America about our national identity as based on the first
words of the Declaration of Independence, which to me is the
the foundation of the country, that those words have lost some
of their hold on people, especially young people who
(26:13):
don't think they're true, who don't think they mean anything.
They don't think the country stands for that.
And that's on the right and the left.
Both sides have weakened that hold of those universal
democratic values of equality, self government, liberty, the
pursuit of happiness. And so how do you restore it?
I I don't have an answer for that, that that's an enormous
(26:36):
question. One way is for government to
work on behalf of people. If people feel that their
government is this far away thing that is either choking a
life out of them or indifferent to their problems, why would
they think democracy is the onlysystem that that's worth
supporting? They may think it isn't working
for me. So maybe we should try a little
(26:56):
authoritarianism and see if Trump can lower the price of
eggs and and raise the stock market.
So, yeah, it's it worries me a great deal.
And of course, this isn't new. We've always had this vexed
attachment to those ideals. We've often betrayed them.
But we've always returned to a notion of who we are as a people
(27:20):
and that we are a democratic people.
I don't know how you get back tothat, but because I've never
lived through a period in my life that in which it was so at
risk, but it is at risk. I guess one thing also is that
this sort of idea of democracy, although it is, you know, we
both understand what it means, is what does it actually look
(27:42):
like for a democracy to be eroded?
What are the specific things that are happening at the moment
that worry you the most? I mean, the most dramatic has
been the president using the Department of Justice to
prosecute his his enemies quite nakedly ordering prosecutors to
go after a list of people he considers his enemies, his
(28:03):
persecutors, regardless of whether career prosecutors or
even political appointees found that there was no 'cause.
Which is what's happened again and again.
He's just gone through one afteranother till he finds one
corrupt hack who's willing to use the tools of the law, the
immense power of the state to goafter a political enemy for for
(28:23):
no legal reason. And that to me is maybe the
single most vivid example of howwe're seeing the abuse of power
in the most dramatic way. Once you use the state, which is
so powerful to settle scores, there's really, I mean, where's
(28:45):
the limit then? Who won't you go after?
I think he will continue to do it because he's gotten away with
it. He's found people to do it.
He's found people in civil society, whether university
presidents, corporate CE OS or law firm executives to cooperate
with extortion schemes, essentially with him demanding
(29:07):
certain ideological conformity in exchange for federal money.
So again, if you if if you find that there's no push back,
there's no resistance, you push harder and push harder again.
And that's what he's been doing all year.
Because I think a good deal of the country is sort of in shock,
is not doesn't know how to respond.
And he has been on the offensivefrom the moment he got back into
(29:31):
the White House. And so it it, it requires an
understanding of what's happening, of a lucid sense that
this isn't just a guy who's a little out of control.
This isn't a direct rise of an authoritarian regime that needs
to be resisted if it is not going to permanently really for
(29:52):
a generation or more, as Orban has done in Hungary.
You mentioned him, Anouska or Matt, I can't remember which.
As Orban has done as Erdogan hasdone.
Once you go down that road, it'sextremely hard to reverse
course. Can I ask you, George, why, Why
you think the Republican Party, you know, the Grand Old Party,
the party of Abraham Lincoln, ofTeddy Roosevelt, who's put up
(30:16):
with this? Yeah, well, there's a long list
of Republican former office holders who are now in other
lines of work because they stoodup to Trump.
And it seems that for a politician losing office, losing
an election is death. And so they'll do anything,
including betray their oath, betray their commitment to their
(30:38):
constituents and betray everything that's decent about
being in politics in order to stay in office.
And that means doing whatever Trump wants because he made the
price so high. And so, yeah, the party has
become it's, it's a bunch of cowards, I'm sorry to say.
It's a bunch of cowards who havebecome his sycophants and his.
Yes. And it's, we see it over and
(30:59):
over. And that is the other half of
our constitutional problem. Congress is no longer acting
like a separate branch of government.
So there's only an executive. And I just wonder to what extent
this is exacerbated by the way, you know, American elections
take place that you have, you know, most, the vast majority of
congressional seats aren't even competitive between Democrats
(31:21):
and Republicans. They're competitive within the
Democratic Party, as we we saw in New York or within the
Republican Party, which is when you can mobilize that Trumpian
threat to not get someone, you know, nominated.
So the combination of the primary cycle, which really
favours the kind of people who shout loudest in the party, the
algorithm of social media and the way cable television works
(31:44):
where you're either with one side or the other side.
And if you look at Fox TV and MSNBC on each day, you might as
well be living in different galaxies, let alone countries.
All that conspires to make it more divided and more tribal.
You're right, when you have a two party system and a first
past the post electoral system and politics has become
(32:07):
absolutely tribal and in which there really is no independence
allowed for politicians, they have to be party men or party
women. You're going to have a system in
which nothing can get done because the two sides only see
victory in the others defeat notjust in the election but in
governing. If there were to be a compromise
(32:27):
bill of any kind, Trump would hate it.
He doesn't want to compromise. He wants to exert power.
And and the Democrats now are ina position where they have very
little power, which makes it seem as if there's no opposition
to Trump at all, except for these rather dignified and
earnest rallies every few monthscalled No King.
Joe, just a a final question forme.
(32:49):
Are you hopeful at all? It doesn't sound like it.
I mean, if the American people wake up to what's happening and
there is still a broad middle, what we're describing are the
extremes. They're the people you hear on
social media. They're the people who make
primary campaigns A misery for anyone who wants to think
(33:09):
independently. But there is still a middle that
can be persuaded and that swingsbetween elections.
We've seen that over and over inthe past 20 years.
If those Americans understand the gravity of the situation,
that this isn't just one more cycle with one party in power,
(33:30):
then I think in the next election, in the midterms, if
it's free and fair. And that's a big if right now.
And then again in 28 with the presidential election.
Public opinion is the last barrier to authoritarianism in
this country. And we haven't really heard from
the public. But the pendulum swings wider
every time, doesn't it? And isn't that the danger?
(33:50):
You go to the further to the left, which means a reaction
from the right, and the middle ground actually gets squeezed in
all this. Well, Joe Biden was actually the
middle ground. He was the most centrist
Democrat running for president in 2020.
You remember there was a whole array of other candidates to his
left, and they all lost, which shows that at that point, the
(34:11):
Democratic Party was sane enoughto understand that to beat
Trump, they couldn't go to theirfringe.
They had to occupy the center. But Biden was a failed president
for a lot of reasons that we know.
And Trump came back with an evenmore vengeful retributive
politics than before and with a more extreme base than before
(34:33):
because social media cable news had made turned everyone into
into an extreme partisan. So how do you undo that?
You know, this is a much longer conversation.
I wish I had the answer and I would put it into practice
immediately because I'm really worried the.
Extreme centre. The extreme centre, George.
That's what we need. Old.
(34:53):
Centre, the radical centre. The radical centre.
Exactly. George, thank you so much.
George Packer, author of Many Books of The Atlantic, thank you
very much for joining us. Thanks for having me.
So that was George Packer, Matt,I would say not loads of hope
there. Are you hopeful?
(35:14):
I don't know, the jury's out. I do think that, you know, the
centre ground, the, the, the numbers of people are kind of
willing to engage in that very boring but rather important
concept of consensus is dwindling.
And remember, this is a country that, you know, had a civil war.
America lost more people in the civil war in percentage and real
terms than it did in any other conflict it ever fought.
(35:35):
And that that civil war still haunts the country.
When I first got to America, thebeginning of the noughties,
everyone said to me, oh, you know, this is a bipartisan
effort. It was all about Democrats and
Republicans working together, even though they were frictions
at the time. But I think that's all gone.
I think there's more political capital to be gained out of
division, and that includes the left.
(35:56):
And let's you know this, this race in New York between Zoran
Mandami and Andrew Cuomo, who's going to run as an independent,
that's so fascinating because that's about the same issue
playing out inside the Democratic Party.
And I don't know. So I'd say, is America going to
be a democracy in 20 years time from now?
Maybe, but probably somewhat diminished to what it should be.
(36:20):
What a depressing thing to end on.
We will. We will certainly be talking
about that New York race over the next couple of weeks.
I'm already planning when we're going to go up and cover it.
So there'll be lots on that to come.
But that is it for this week from Trump World.
We will see you next Wednesday. We'll see you next Wednesday, as
(36:40):
we always do from Anushka in Washington and me in London.
Have a fabulous week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Male Room with Dr. Jesse Mills
As Director of The Men’s Clinic at UCLA, Dr. Jesse Mills has spent his career helping men understand their bodies, their hormones, and their health. Now he’s bringing that expertise to The Male Room — a podcast where data-driven medicine meets common sense. Each episode separates fact from hype, science from snake oil, and gives men the tools to live longer, stronger, and happier lives. With candor, humor, and real-world experience from the exam room and the operating room, Dr. Mills breaks down the latest health headlines, dissects trends, and explains what actually works — and what doesn’t. Smart, straightforward, and entertaining, The Male Room is the show that helps men take charge of their health without the jargon.