October 8, 2025 • 37 mins
On the two-year anniversary of the October 7 Hamas attacks, a new push for peace in Gaza is gaining momentum and this time it’s being driven directly by President Trump. His personal involvement marks a major shift from previous negotiations, raising hopes and deep scepticism in equal measure.
In this week’s episode of TrumpWorld, Anushka Asthana speaks with our Foreign Correspondent Secunder Kermani, who has reported extensively from the region. Since the attacks, Secunder has made dozens of trips to Israel and was among the few international journalists embedded with the IDF inside Gaza during the early stages of the war.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I've spent so many Saturday nights at the protests in Tel
Aviv in solidarity with the hostages, and so many of them
direct their appeals not to Netanyahu, but to President
Trump. They're like going over his
head. They're like, I want to speak to
the head teacher in this situation.
Basically, Sir, can you sort this mess out?
Really interested in this split within the administration
between the people who are kind of Israel 1st and those who
(00:22):
America first. In the end, it almost doesn't
matter because Donald Trump doesn't listen to anyone.
You know, it's, it's hard to getinto the mind of President Trump
is even harder, I would say, to get into the mind of a Prime
Minister Netanyahu. Hi, I'm Anushka Astana, welcome
to Trump World. You will notice that I am not
(00:43):
joined by Matt this week. He is having a well deserved
break, although I would love to chat to him about the crazy
amount of stuff that has once again happened this week in
Trump World. It is, of course, the 2nd
anniversary of the October 7th Hamas attacks.
And I want to talk about Israel,Gaza, because it's feeling
extremely positive at the moment.
(01:04):
At least the possibility of a first stage deal, hostages
perhaps being released and you know, detainees in Israel also
being released. They're being held without trial
at the moment. Let's look at all of this.
Let's see where we are. Both sides seem to have said to
Donald Trump's 20 point peace plan.
(01:25):
Yes. But the president really wants
to seize on the yes and wants torun with that.
And for the first time in all ofthis, he is really exerting
pressure on Benjamin Netanyahu. The perfect person to talk to
about all of this is our foreignaffairs correspondent, Sukunda
Kamani. He has travelled to Israel a
(01:46):
dozen times since October the 7th.
He spent a lot of time reportingfrom the West Bank and he even
was able to go into Gaza at the beginning of all of this with
the IDF. He has a perspective on the
region that goes very far and very deep.
And I want to talk to him about that relationship with the US,
about how important it is and about whether Donald Trump is
(02:07):
the man who is finally going to get some progress on all of
this. Welcome Secunder to the podcast.
So much has happened in the lasttwo years.
I just wonder if I could start by asking you to almost just
take us back, remind us where weare right now.
You know, starting with October the 7th itself.
(02:28):
Do you remember where you were when you found out about it and
just what it meant to Israel andthe world?
Yeah, well, good to be with you,Anushka.
And as, as you say, it's been a horrific 2 years.
Let's see how things end and where we are right now.
A great deal of optimism after so much horror going back to to
(02:50):
October the 7th. You know, I was here in London
and received a message early morning on my phone from our
local colleague in Gaza saying something, something massive,
something very worrying is just happening.
We immediately realised as we saw the images coming in on, on
our phones, on social media, that this was something on a
(03:11):
scale that has we had never seenbefore, that Israel had never
seen before, that the conflict had never seen before, certainly
in, in terms of Israel being targeted by, by, by Palestinian
militants. And so as soon as possible, we
got on a flight to Israel and, and within, you know, less than
24 hours, we were there on the ground reporting on Hamas
(03:35):
attack, um, the, the civilians, 800 or so who were killed, Uh,
particularly around, um, in, in the Kabut scene, the little
communities right on the border with Gaza and at the music
festival. Um, and at that time, you know,
I remember so many heartbreakingstories from, from Israelis
there also getting a sense really of the, of the rage
(03:58):
within Israel that we would see build and build and build and
manifest in itself in the, in the brutal assault that, that
Israel has carried out in, in Gaza with more than 65,067
thousand, I, I believe now Palestinians killed in Gaza, I
don't think anyone expected things to go as far as they've
(04:18):
gone. And and you know, beyond Israel,
Palestine, there's been huge repercussions right across the
Middle East. You look at the defeat
effectively of Hezbollah in Lebanon, long seen as, you know,
a massive threat by the Israelis.
You look at the direct conflict between Israel and and Iran.
(04:40):
You know, a kind of shadow war had played out for many years
between those two sides. We ended up seeing ballistic
missiles being traded between them.
We really saw the destruction ofIran's so-called axis of
resistance by Israel at the sametime that Israel has achieved
this massive military dominance within the region.
(05:01):
At the same time, you've seen it's international standing
absolutely decimated. I mean, it's incredible to think
that, you know, the Prime Minister serving Prime Minister
of Israel, the the the former defence minister, you have
gallant they are indicted by theInternational Criminal Court on
war crimes. You have Aun Commission of
inquiry that has described what's happening in Gaza as as a
(05:25):
genocide. You know, Israel disputes that.
But, but really you can see fromcertainly European countries,
countries that have been traditional supporters of of
Israel, there's a a great deal of of anger and frustration
directed particularly from, fromfrom public opinion also at
governmental level. Obviously, as we speak, the
talks are taking place in Egypt.It's feeling quite positive for
(05:48):
certainly the first stage of this.
And I want to go through quite alot of what you've said and try
and unpack some of it. You know, that point about how
isolated Israel is has really struck me recently.
The thing that really struck me was when Benjamin Netanyahu flew
from Israel to New York in the US to speak at the UN General
Assembly, he actually had to avoid French and Spanish
(06:10):
airspace because of that indictment by the International
Criminal Court. I thought it was a real symbol
of how isolated Israel has become.
Let's talk about this and I wantto really focus in on the US
Israel relationship, the importance of it and the extent
to which Donald Trump himself isplaying an important role in
this. To the negotiations in in Egypt,
(06:31):
the mood amongst everyone right now seems to be optimistic,
certainly the most optimistic that we've seen in the last in
the last two years. There seems to be real concerted
pressure from President Trump. He's the one who's really
driving this. And we've seen that throughout
the conflict that President Trump in particular, unlike
Biden, has the ability to turn the screws on, on all sides, but
(06:53):
particularly on on the Israelis,because that was something that
was missing under the the previous administration, I think
and and push forward deals. We saw that when President Trump
was assuming office in, in, in, in in January and we had the
first ceasefire. So right now negotiations are
taking place in direct negotiations between the
Israelis and and Hamas in Egypt,brokered by the Egyptians and
(07:16):
categories. We've got Steve Witkoff, US, the
President Trump special envoy, Jared Kushner, Trump's
son-in-law. They've flown in Ron Derma,
who's kind of Netanyahu's right hand man He's there.
These are all promising signs because they say that that they
tell us that the negotiations are making progress.
Wickoff is that I think explicitly said that he he was
(07:37):
going to only arrive when, when and if progress was being made.
At this stage. Right now, Hamas say that
they've given a list of prisoners, detainees who they
want to be released in exchange for the Israeli hostages.
You know, there's talk that perhaps something could be
agreed within the next couple ofdays.
(07:57):
Let's wait and see. There are also, you know, major
sticking points that that frankly, I'm not clear how we're
going to be resolved. For example, you know, Hamas
still wants a full Israeli, Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in
exchange for releasing the hostages.
Israel still wants Hamas to, to completely disarm itself.
(08:18):
Hamas does not want to to, to dothat.
Now, I think it's quite possiblethat some of those issues are
going to be somewhat kicked intothe longer grass and you're
going to, we're seeing a kind offirst stage of an agreement
being reached in which Israel commits to some kind of
withdrawal in exchange for the hostages.
And and then those even thornierissues around governance in
(08:43):
Gaza, Hamas's future, a completeIsraeli withdrawal are still,
are still, are still discussed. Hopefully whilst there's no,
there's an end to, to the bombing right now, you know,
there's still a degree of, of Israeli attacks going on, but
nothing like what we've seen in,in the past where it's routine
to see, you know, dozens, 5060, a hundred Palestinians in excess
(09:06):
of that of their times killed ona, on a, on a daily basis.
I just want to focus in on why Donald Trump is a person who's
able to do this. The relationship between America
and Israel, a relationship that has, you know, existed and been
unbelievably closed for decades.As Israel has become more
isolated, that bipartisan relationship has not weakened,
(09:27):
although Donald Trump is for thefirst time exerting pressure
onto Israel. I mean, this goes right back.
And we don't have to go all the way back in this conversation,
but, you know, to President Truman, you know, actually being
the first, I think, leader in the world to recognise the state
of Israel. And then after the 1967 war,
(09:48):
America particularly associatingitself with Israel, seeing
Israel as its absolute key ally in in that region.
Why? Why are these two countries as
close as they are? I mean, I'm sorry to say to our
viewers and listeners in the UK that while I do get the
impression since being here in the US, that they, the
Americans, do consider U.S. special, that there is no other
(10:12):
special relationship that tops Israel for Americans.
Why do you think that is? Yeah, You know, I was just
looking at some data today and it's going it was saying that
that since World War 2, I think there's been in excess of the
equivalent contemporary equivalent of around $300
billion of aid supplied by by America to Israel.
(10:34):
So it's been a huge, a huge support for for Israel continues
to be a huge support. You know, there's a guarantee of
around $3 billion of military aid that is supplied every year.
America wields huge political, cultural and, you know, economic
influence over over as well as its largest trading partner.
(10:55):
As well as you say, the relationship goes back to the
founding of Israel the the creation of it in 1948.
President Truman was actually somewhat his administration was
somewhat split over whether to recognise Israel or not.
He he went ahead with it. But but you know, particularly
during the Cold War, you saw thethe Americans ally themselves
(11:17):
with the Israelis on the on the other side, the Palestinians,
Yasser Arafat, the PLO, They were, they were left wing
movements. They were, you know, they were
not the, the Hamas of today, which are a religious
organization. They were, they were
secularists. They were part of the kind of
the left wing, anti colonial post colonial movements all
(11:38):
around the world. And so, you know, the Americans,
which were, you know, opposed tothe the Soviet Union, saw their
natural ally as as the Israelis.You've also seen American
administrations, for example, Clinton playing key roles in
trying to broker some kind of some kind of peace.
But you, you, you've seen, you know, consistent accusations
(12:00):
and, and feelings from the Palestinian side that the
Americans are, are, yes, they're, they're mediating and
they're negotiating, but they'realways favouring the favouring
the, the, the, the Israeli side.I mean, 11 American diplomat I
was speaking to not long after October the 7th, You know, it
gave me something of an insight into the personal connections
(12:22):
that some, that some Americans, I think feel towards Israel,
where he said, you know, I, I'm a Zionist in the same way that
President Biden is a Zionist in that I don't believe Europe can
be trusted with the Jews given their history.
And so they need their own homeland.
And that, that was to me was very interesting because that's
not the kind of language I'd ever really heard expressed by,
(12:46):
by politicians in, in, in, in Europe, even those who are
supportive of, of Israel and youknow, who, who want to ensure
Israel's security as, as well as, you know, a part of the
statehood for the, for the Palestinians.
So that was that was interestingto me.
And, and perhaps we can discuss it later, but there's also been,
you know, a very strong Christian Zionist movement in,
(13:09):
in the United States. And that has also been certainly
for the, the Republican Party, akey factor, I think in their, in
their support for, for Israel. Now what we're seeing, I think
is, is, is perhaps some levels of declining support in, in
America for, for, for, for Israel.
(13:29):
You know, 1 Israeli official I was speaking to last year who's
very into, had a big presence onsocial media.
He said, you know, we see what'shappening.
We see the protests in, in universities like Colombia.
And we realize that perhaps there's, there's a generational
shift and, and that this level of support that Israel has
traditionally received from America is not always going to
(13:50):
last initially. I mean, you're there in DC and I
wanted to ask you, I mean, how do you see all these competing
influences on President Trump when when it comes to Israel
policy on on the one hand, there's been, you know, this
very traditionally strong pro Israel lobby within American
politics. On the flip side, you know, he's
got strong ties in this good relationship with the Qataris,
(14:12):
with the Saudis. He wants to be a peacemaker.
What what's driving President Trump because it's something,
you know, that I here in London or when I'm in the Middle East
have, have, have always wanderedand have never really been able
to, to, to fathom. Well, what's driving President
Trump is his own desires for what he wants.
I said to a former negotiator who's worked for literally
decades on Middle East negotiations within Republican
(14:35):
and Democratic administrations about this.
And I said, really interested inthis split within the
administration between the people who are kind of Israel
1st and those who are America First.
And his argument was that in theend, almost doesn't matter
because Donald Trump doesn't listen to anyone.
You know, it doesn't kind of really matter what they're
saying to him because it's just what his desire is.
(14:55):
And clearly at the moment, and Idon't mean to be facetious with
this, but I think he really, really wants a Nobel Peace
Prize. And this is the kind of ultimate
point at which he knows he has the power to get it.
And we'll come into why I think Donald Trump has this particular
power at the moment. But in terms of those divides,
you know, in 2019, Donald Trump said he was the most pro Israeli
(15:17):
president in history. And when we looked at the
formation of his team initially that it really speaks to that.
I mean, you talk about evangelical Christians.
Mike Huckabee, who is the ambassador for America to
Israel, is an evangelical Christian who I don't think can
even bring himself to say the words.
West Bank thinks that the West Bank is an area that by God's
(15:37):
will belongs to Jewish people and is a really, really key
player in all of this. You've also got Marco Rubio as
the Secretary of State who is really, you know, quite hawkish
when it comes to the Israel situation.
But we have a really interestingsituation unfolding in the US
where even on the right there are now big divides in this,
(15:59):
including the rise of some anti-Semitism.
It feels like to me within that MAGA Make America Great movement
again, we have very kind of highprofile figures like Tucker
Carlson who are now really, really critical about Israel.
There are a lot of conspiracy theories about the death of
Charlie Kirk that are doing the rounds that people are talking
(16:20):
about. The podcasts in which some of
these things are being discussedare the most listened to
podcasts sack even more listeners than we've got right
now here. And and that is happening on the
right. Meanwhile, we have an age divide
where younger people are much less sympathetic to Israel than
some older people, even within their own families, even within
(16:41):
the Jewish community. I spent, you know, a recent day
in New York with liberal Jewish communities who were really,
really unhappy about what was happening in Gaza and were
telling me about the difficult conversations they were actually
having with their parents back home.
If you look at the polling, you know, sentiment has shifted
that, you know, there's more sympathy towards Israel here
(17:03):
than there, it towards Israelis here than there is towards
Palestinians. But the gap has massively closed
and the sympathy has actually dropped below 50%, which it has,
I think in Gallup's polling donefor the first time since they've
been doing that polling. So there is a shift and Donald
Trump will be aware of that. But but I just want to ask you
this, actually, Donald Trump's position that he's put himself
(17:26):
out as, as the most pro Israeli president has in many ways, I
think got us to where we are now.
On the one hand, as someone was saying to me, America hasn't
actually imposed a single cost or consequence on Israel
throughout all of this. And I think it's really
important to remember that now. And even now he's talking about
giving Benjamin Netanyahu the green light to obliterate Hamas
(17:49):
if they don't agree to what he'sputting forward.
But, but is there also an argument that in Israel, in
Israel, that relationship with the US is so important?
The relationship with the US president is so important.
And it's even more important nowwhen there is that massive
isolation across the rest of theworld and that has empowered
(18:09):
Donald Trump to be stronger whenit comes to this and to put much
more pressure on Netanyahu, including, as we've seen, you
know, he he does lose his tempo.You saw in June, he said that
neither Iran nor Israel knew what the F they were doing.
Some people say that was more hot air than substantive.
(18:30):
I'm interested in your view on that.
But behind the scenes here, it looks like he's picked up the
phone to Netanyahu, who said there was nothing to celebrate
when Hamas said they were open to agreeing to the beginning of
this and telling him to stop being so effing negative.
I mean, is he the one man in theworld who can actually influence
Netanyahu? Yeah, I think you're.
You're absolutely right. I mean, I remember for example,
when when the Trump administration was coming into
(18:52):
office in, in in January and special envoy Steve Witkoff was
going flying into to, to Israel to meet Prime Minister Netanyahu
as part of negotiation to try and introduce a, a, a ceasefire.
Just as as Trump was going to besworn in.
And he was he wanted to meet Netanyahu on on Saturday, the
Shabbat, the, the holy day for, for, for in Israel, for, for the
(19:14):
Jewish people when people don't wouldn't normally work.
And so Prime Minister Netanyahu said, I, you know, I can't meet
you during the day. And, and Witkoff is reported to
have said, look, I don't care. You're meeting me.
Trump wants me to meet you. You're meeting me.
And, and, and Netanyahu turned up and, and, and met him.
And I mean, the, the, I think the big difference is yes,
there's, there's of course the, the relationship between Israel
(19:36):
and, and, and America that's strong.
But you can see the difference in tone that Netanyahu talks
with President Trump with compared to how we talked with,
with, with Biden, you know, who's also president, Because I
think the difference is that when, when Biden was in power,
Netanyahu always had in the backof his mind, he's on his way out
(19:57):
and Trump is coming and Trump isgoing to give us everything we
want. He's going to.
And that was very much the tone within, within, within the
Israeli, within the Israeli, particularly right wing
political sphere where they thought, right, Trump is going
to come in because on, on the back, as, as you said, in his
first administration, he recognized Jerusalem as the, the
(20:17):
capital of Israel. He, you know, put forward a.
Deal of the century plan that would have recognised Israeli
control over lots of settlements, for example.
So they thought right. And and all the noises from
Trump on the campaign trail werealso about about Biden is not
strong enough on in supporting Israel.
So I think Netanyahu was able tokind of bat off anything that
(20:40):
that Biden tried to throw at him.
Not that really Biden ever really tried to exert any
pressure. We saw kind of tough words at
times from people like Blinken 0National, I think.
Largely supplying billions pounds worth of weapons?
No, rather than any actual pressure?
Exactly. Exactly.
I mean, you saw words, right? You saw Blinken saying, OK, the
level of killing is is unacceptable, but what does that
(21:02):
mean if you're continuing to send all the weapons?
And so where's now, where does Netanyahu go?
He's got, he's got no one else other than Trump.
I mean, even he's, as we've discussed, like his European
allies have become increasingly frustrated.
They've, you know, they're backing the idea of A2 state
solution, something that he's become increasingly vocal and
in, in, in opposing. So that has a, a kind of a bit,
(21:26):
a big weight. You know, I think it's, it's
interesting when you're in Israel, I've, you know, I've
spent so many Saturday nights atthe, the, the protests in Tel
Aviv in solidarity with the, with the, with the hostages
where, you know, large numbers of people there are anti
government, fed up with the, with the Netanyahu government,
frustrated by the fact that he hasn't signed a deal that would
(21:47):
bring the hostages back. And so many of them direct their
appeals not to Netanyahu, but toPresident Trump.
They're like going over his head.
They're like, I want to speak tothe head teacher in this
situation. Basically, Sir, can you sort
this mess out? Because we want our hostages
back and, and, and we have no trust in our own leadership to
(22:07):
do it. You're the one who can do it.
And, you know, I saw videos of hostages once they've been
released, going and meeting President Trump in, in the Oval
Office and they're all praising him, lavishing him with these,
you know, words of Sir, you're the only one who could do this.
As soon as you came to office, we knew that you would be able
to get things moving again. Everyone wants to say yes.
(22:29):
No one wants to say no. That includes Hamas, right?
I mean, you look at the statement that Hamas gave that
that in relation to this, this US plan, it was, it was a yes,
but but it was, it was framed invery positive language.
And that allowed Trump, I think,to latch onto it with a as being
a yes, rather than focusing on the on the but, which is
(22:51):
definitely what Prime Minister Netanyahu was hoping to do, I
think. Yeah, it is it.
Is fascinating, 1 Middle East analyst said to me yesterday.
And I wasn't completely convinced by this, but
interested in your opinion that maybe Netanyahu doesn't mind
some of this pressure from Donald Trump because it gives
him something to play against those who are even further to
the right of him in the cabinet.I mean, it was quite telling
(23:13):
that when he was here at the White House 4th visit this year,
you know, by far, I think the the person who's been here the
most since Trump's second presidency began.
And he had to do obviously the theatrics of what Donald Trump
likes, call the Qatari Prime Minister on the phone and
apologise for the strike in on Doha that immediately the those
(23:35):
to the right of him in the cabinet were criticising what he
was doing, were really unhappy with it.
Do you think it almost gives Netanyahu a tiny bit of cover or
do you think he's probably quitefrustrated with how far Donald
Trump has now gone? You know it's it's.
Hard to get into the mind of President Trump.
It's even harder, I would say, to get into the mind of of Prime
Minister Netanyahu and, and whatexactly he wants.
(23:58):
He was always being described certainly to me as someone
who's, you know, a master strategist and someone who's not
necessarily really particularly ideologically driven, but just
someone who is interested in maintain maintaining power.
Certainly that and that's the critique you get from lots of
his opponents within Israel who say that he's prolonged the war
for his own political gain to keep his, his coalition with
(24:22):
those far right Israeli, frankly, extremist parties keep
to keep that alive, to keep thatgoing.
Also keeping an eye on the fact that he's got a, a trial
ongoing. And and, you know, more focus
will inevitably fall on that if and when the war, the war ends.
And and certainly if there's newelections, it, it seems unlikely
(24:44):
at the moment that he would, he would, he would win those, those
elections. I mean, going back to Trump as
well, though, I mean, what what's interesting to me is the
way he's kind of oscillated. So January, he pushes through a
ceasefire and the far right in Israel was shocked.
I mean, I remember like the settler leader, Daniella Weiss,
who's like the godmother, the settler movement saying, you
(25:06):
know, he came into power saying he was going to give Hamas hell.
He's giving us hell. And they were, they were
rattled. Then just a few weeks later, you
have Trump saying, actually, there's going to be a plan
that's going to basically ethniccleanse Gaza and take it over.
And Netanyahu was sitting there next to him and you could see
Netanyahu thinking, wow. I mean, this is language that I
(25:29):
haven't used that this is this is very much the language that
my far right partners, Smotrich and and Ben Gavir are on board
with. And and then kind of the Israeli
government caught up with with Trump.
And you know, similarly, when, when Israel blocked off all
humanitarian aid for, for like 2months, you know, the situation
that led to basically the declaration of famine that we,
(25:52):
that we've had in, in Gaza, who had not a like, not a squeak out
of Trump, right? There was no pressure really, it
seemed to to resume humanitarianaid.
By contrast, Biden did. I mean, that's one of the few
instances where I think he managed to exert some pressure
on on Netanyahu. And straight after October the
7th, they put a lot of pressure on them to to resume supplies
(26:15):
to, you know, inadequate levels of supplies, but some supplies
back into Gaza after they had been initially completely,
completely cut off. But I think right now Netanyahu
definitely feels under pressure from Trump.
He feels like he has nowhere else to turn.
So whatever Trump dictates, he'sgoing to have to go along with.
We saw him like being able to play, I think Trump, certainly
(26:40):
Biden in the past by coming up with new demands, framing
acceptances, framing de facto refusals of of agreements as
acceptances. Right now, there seems to be a
momentum that seems to be sweeping him away.
But there's still, there's stilla long way to go.
(27:00):
And you know what, what, what, what I'm wondering is how long
will this conflict sustain President Trump's interest,
especially if we we only reach some kind of initial phase of a
deal where all the hostages are out.
You know, Hamas has a big fear that we give away all our
leverage. What's to stop Israel resuming
the war, The Qataris and the Saudis and Egyptians obviously
(27:22):
pressuring the Americans to givesome kind of guarantees around
that. But I mean, how do you use it?
Do you think that that that Trump wants to see a lasting
peace? I mean, he, he doesn't, he's
been very critical of the Europeans for recognising
Palestine as a, as a state or, or is he focused on a more short
(27:43):
term win? It's really hard to know.
Because of the the isolation that you talk about and you
know, just to give another example of it, you talk about
the Ukraine. We talked a lot about the
Ukraine situation, about Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
You know, in the summer, Donald Trump was talking about Ukraine
will have to cede land in order for that to end.
(28:03):
Then suddenly he was talking about the idea that Ukraine
could win back all the land thathas already been taken.
I mean, these two positions are so far apart, it's hard to
understand how the same person could mutter those words.
And I think we have a similar situation here with Israel and
Gaza that you've just set out. I think the kind of the drive
for him, and you've mentioned itwhen you've mentioned the other
(28:23):
Arab countries that involved in these talks, is that, you know,
he wants to, in the long term, try to normalise relations
between Israel and Arab countries, in particular between
Israel and Saudi Arabia. In reality, that's quite a long
way away because of the butts inthe yes, butts.
And I just want to come to thosein a minute.
(28:45):
But, you know, just remember, this is a president who
travelled to Qatar, a country that he's been so critical of in
the past and had a absolutely lavish, you know, trip there.
You know, I was speaking to someof the Qataris, they were saying
the first time they've ever actually had an official visit
from AUS president, although US presidents have been there
before because of the American base that is there.
(29:05):
How furious or not he really waswhen Israel struck Doha.
He wants the world to think he'sfurious about that because he
sees those relationships with Arab countries as incredibly
important. And, you know, I wouldn't say on
the same level as his relationship with Israel, but
not so far off. And so for him, actually there
(29:27):
is a kind of personal desire in terms of the long term Middle
East policy for America, which has actually crossed through
Biden and back to Donald Trump, which is that normalisation if
they can get to it between those.
At one point he was talking about the idea of actually
having a security pact between those countries, but then he has
the issue with with especially with the Doha strike, those
(29:47):
countries are increasingly seeing Israel as a pariah in all
of this. Now, as much as he's pressuring
Israel, they're obviously pressuring Hamas.
As you say, the Qataris really pushing hard for written
guarantees from Israel. Now, in terms of what happens,
you know, after the hostages were released, then Hamas have
no leverage over Israel. How do we then guarantee what
(30:10):
comes next? And let's just talk about that
because, you know, I sat and watched Benjamin Netanyahu at
the UN General Assembly. He couldn't have been clearer.
He does not want a Palestinian state.
He stood there and he said giving the Palestinians and he
said Palestinians, not Hamas, Palestinians, a state a mile
from Jerusalem is like giving AlQaeda a state a mile from New
(30:32):
York. He then travelled to the White
House. He had a six hour meeting where
he insisted on a number of editsto the 20 point peace plan, some
of which are pretty significant around the timetable of the
Israeli withdrawal. He made changes that apparently
made some of the Arab officials furious.
(30:52):
He then stood up in the White House.
He agreed to this plan. He didn't take a single question
from journalists and and .19 of the plan talks about a path
towards Palestinian statehood. It has lots of caveats set, but
it talks about a plan to Palestinian statehood.
And then within no time at all, Benjamin Netanyahu makes a video
message saying there will not bea Palestinian state for the Arab
(31:15):
countries. When I talk to sources who are
working with the Arab countries,there will never be a
normalisation for them with Israel until it is very clear
what that path to a Palestinian state is.
So as as positive as we are at the moment about the hope of a
hostage exchange with all these detainees in Israel who have
been held without any sense of atrial, the butts are quite
(31:39):
important, aren't they? Like how likely is it that
whatever we get this week actually leads to a position
where we are moving towards a 2 state solution or or do you see
that as impossible with this Israeli government?
Yeah. Look, it's, it's an interesting
question in this game. I mean, I mean, so many people
(31:59):
I've, I've, I've read and talkedto have said that what we're
looking at now, you know, is, isreally a, a, a ceasefire rather
than an end to the conflict. And, and, you know, let's not
denigrate the importance of a ceasefire, you know,
particularly when you have famine that 10s of thousands of
(32:20):
Palestinians killed. I mean, you know, the worst
humanitarian disaster taking place under it in front of our
eyes right now in, in, in, in Gaza.
You know, that's clearly, that is clearly the immediate
priority. But yes, I mean, the, the idea
of a longer lasting just solution for, for, for everyone
(32:42):
in the region looks to be a verydistant prospect.
I mean, what's interesting to meis, is being in Israel, you
know, when so many of those Western countries were were
recognizing A Palestinian state,it wasn't just Prime Minister
Netanyahu who came out in opposition to it.
It was right across the political spectrum.
You know, it was the head of theopposition, it was the Yaya
(33:04):
Lapid, it was Yaya Galan who's the head of the Democrats, the
kind of the main, you know, further to the left party.
Certainly. You know, the person who's
perhaps if he, if he, if he endsup formally running Naftali
Bennett, who, who, who might become the new Prime Minister.
He's he's, you know, another right wing figure.
He's absolutely viscerally opposed to, to, to, to A2 state
(33:27):
solution. So, you know, it's not just
necessarily a question of right,this government is voted out,
which is, is quite likely to happen when there are elections
next year. And you know, we might see a new
attitude. At the moment there is no
appetite at all. In fact, there's absolute
determination not to allow a Palestinian state to, to, to be
(33:47):
created. Of course things can change.
And you know, you are like I, I was speaking to a Palestinian
official from, from the Palestinian Authority, you know,
who, who it's hoped would have arole in, in, in governing Gaza
instead of Hamas in the future. And I said to him, you know,
actually prior to October the 7th, all the polls in in the
(34:08):
West Bank, and probably, I thinkpolls still now certainly in the
West Bank would show that if there were democratic elections
which have not taken place for around 2 decades there, then
Hamas would be elected. So how do you deal with that
like that? That's the reality of what
people feel on the ground. And he said the problem is like,
we can't, you can't polling now.People's emotions are so
(34:29):
inflamed that there's no point. There's no point or there's a
limited value in in asking them their views right now.
Ask after everything as as the dust has settled somewhat and
then and when we have results toshow people.
So perhaps the same could happenin Israel.
Perhaps we'll see, you know, in a year's time, six months time,
(34:51):
perhaps we'll see a a greater mood of reflection.
I mean, we've seen a kind of a small but growing vocal left
wing movement on the on the ground in Israel that that's
kind of more opposed to, to, to Israeli actions.
But I mean, when you look at thereality, particularly in the in
the occupied West Bank, which isa place where I spend a lot of
time, because as you know, foreign journalists are, are
(35:12):
banned from getting into Gaza bythe Israelis.
You know, the way that you have 500,000 settlers, Israeli
settlers now living there, carving up the territory.
It seems on the face of it to make any kind of future
Palestinian state extremely, extremely, extremely difficult,
if not impossible, certainly without visionary, very
(35:33):
motivated leadership on, on on all sides, particularly on the
Israeli side. And and that doesn't seem to be
something that's on the cards and just a.
Final thought from me on that and then we'll wrap up.
But the question you asked me about what where does America
stand on the long term? Does it want a lasting peace?
I was in the White House briefing room this week
(35:54):
listening to Press Secretary Caroline Leavitt and and the
absolute focus was on getting this first stage done, getting
security guarantees for Israel in particular and getting to a
ceasefire as fast as they can. When she was asked by an
American journalist, do you then, you know, if there is then
a technocratic Palestinian leadership in Gaza, do you then
(36:17):
support the idea of a Palestinian state?
She wouldn't be drawn on it at all and basically said, let's
not get ahead of ourselves. So for all the pressure Trump is
exerting right now, I don't think we should kid ourselves
that America is going to come all out in terms of completing
the plan. And support for Israel remains
very strong within this administration.
(36:39):
Seth, thank you so much for yourtime and for being with us
today. I really, really appreciate it.
Good to be with you. That was Sakanda Kamani, our
foreign affairs correspondent here at Channel 4 News.
Do watch all of his amazing content.
That's it for this week at TrumpWORLD.
Next week, I'll be back with Matt when he returns from
(37:01):
holiday. See you then.
I've spent so many Saturday nights at the protests in Tel
Aviv in solidarity with the hostages, and so many of them
direct their appeals not to Netanyahu, but to President
Trump. They're like going over his
head. They're like, I want to speak to
the head teacher in this situation.
Basically, Sir, can you sort this mess out?
Really interested in this split within the administration
between the people who are kind of Israel 1st and those who
(00:22):
America first. In the end, it almost doesn't
matter because Donald Trump doesn't listen to anyone.
You know, it's, it's hard to getinto the mind of President Trump
is even harder, I would say, to get into the mind of a Prime
Minister Netanyahu. Hi, I'm Anushka Astana, welcome
to Trump World. You will notice that I am not
(00:43):
joined by Matt this week. He is having a well deserved
break, although I would love to chat to him about the crazy
amount of stuff that has once again happened this week in
Trump World. It is, of course, the 2nd
anniversary of the October 7th Hamas attacks.
And I want to talk about Israel,Gaza, because it's feeling
extremely positive at the moment.
(01:04):
At least the possibility of a first stage deal, hostages
perhaps being released and you know, detainees in Israel also
being released. They're being held without trial
at the moment. Let's look at all of this.
Let's see where we are. Both sides seem to have said to
Donald Trump's 20 point peace plan.
(01:25):
Yes. But the president really wants
to seize on the yes and wants torun with that.
And for the first time in all ofthis, he is really exerting
pressure on Benjamin Netanyahu. The perfect person to talk to
about all of this is our foreignaffairs correspondent, Sukunda
Kamani. He has travelled to Israel a
(01:46):
dozen times since October the 7th.
He spent a lot of time reportingfrom the West Bank and he even
was able to go into Gaza at the beginning of all of this with
the IDF. He has a perspective on the
region that goes very far and very deep.
And I want to talk to him about that relationship with the US,
about how important it is and about whether Donald Trump is
(02:07):
the man who is finally going to get some progress on all of
this. Welcome Secunder to the podcast.
So much has happened in the lasttwo years.
I just wonder if I could start by asking you to almost just
take us back, remind us where weare right now.
You know, starting with October the 7th itself.
(02:28):
Do you remember where you were when you found out about it and
just what it meant to Israel andthe world?
Yeah, well, good to be with you,Anushka.
And as, as you say, it's been a horrific 2 years.
Let's see how things end and where we are right now.
A great deal of optimism after so much horror going back to to
(02:50):
October the 7th. You know, I was here in London
and received a message early morning on my phone from our
local colleague in Gaza saying something, something massive,
something very worrying is just happening.
We immediately realised as we saw the images coming in on, on
our phones, on social media, that this was something on a
(03:11):
scale that has we had never seenbefore, that Israel had never
seen before, that the conflict had never seen before, certainly
in, in terms of Israel being targeted by, by, by Palestinian
militants. And so as soon as possible, we
got on a flight to Israel and, and within, you know, less than
24 hours, we were there on the ground reporting on Hamas
(03:35):
attack, um, the, the civilians, 800 or so who were killed, Uh,
particularly around, um, in, in the Kabut scene, the little
communities right on the border with Gaza and at the music
festival. Um, and at that time, you know,
I remember so many heartbreakingstories from, from Israelis
there also getting a sense really of the, of the rage
(03:58):
within Israel that we would see build and build and build and
manifest in itself in the, in the brutal assault that, that
Israel has carried out in, in Gaza with more than 65,067
thousand, I, I believe now Palestinians killed in Gaza, I
don't think anyone expected things to go as far as they've
(04:18):
gone. And and you know, beyond Israel,
Palestine, there's been huge repercussions right across the
Middle East. You look at the defeat
effectively of Hezbollah in Lebanon, long seen as, you know,
a massive threat by the Israelis.
You look at the direct conflict between Israel and and Iran.
(04:40):
You know, a kind of shadow war had played out for many years
between those two sides. We ended up seeing ballistic
missiles being traded between them.
We really saw the destruction ofIran's so-called axis of
resistance by Israel at the sametime that Israel has achieved
this massive military dominance within the region.
(05:01):
At the same time, you've seen it's international standing
absolutely decimated. I mean, it's incredible to think
that, you know, the Prime Minister serving Prime Minister
of Israel, the the the former defence minister, you have
gallant they are indicted by theInternational Criminal Court on
war crimes. You have Aun Commission of
inquiry that has described what's happening in Gaza as as a
(05:25):
genocide. You know, Israel disputes that.
But, but really you can see fromcertainly European countries,
countries that have been traditional supporters of of
Israel, there's a a great deal of of anger and frustration
directed particularly from, fromfrom public opinion also at
governmental level. Obviously, as we speak, the
talks are taking place in Egypt.It's feeling quite positive for
(05:48):
certainly the first stage of this.
And I want to go through quite alot of what you've said and try
and unpack some of it. You know, that point about how
isolated Israel is has really struck me recently.
The thing that really struck me was when Benjamin Netanyahu flew
from Israel to New York in the US to speak at the UN General
Assembly, he actually had to avoid French and Spanish
(06:10):
airspace because of that indictment by the International
Criminal Court. I thought it was a real symbol
of how isolated Israel has become.
Let's talk about this and I wantto really focus in on the US
Israel relationship, the importance of it and the extent
to which Donald Trump himself isplaying an important role in
this. To the negotiations in in Egypt,
(06:31):
the mood amongst everyone right now seems to be optimistic,
certainly the most optimistic that we've seen in the last in
the last two years. There seems to be real concerted
pressure from President Trump. He's the one who's really
driving this. And we've seen that throughout
the conflict that President Trump in particular, unlike
Biden, has the ability to turn the screws on, on all sides, but
(06:53):
particularly on on the Israelis,because that was something that
was missing under the the previous administration, I think
and and push forward deals. We saw that when President Trump
was assuming office in, in, in, in in January and we had the
first ceasefire. So right now negotiations are
taking place in direct negotiations between the
Israelis and and Hamas in Egypt,brokered by the Egyptians and
(07:16):
categories. We've got Steve Witkoff, US, the
President Trump special envoy, Jared Kushner, Trump's
son-in-law. They've flown in Ron Derma,
who's kind of Netanyahu's right hand man He's there.
These are all promising signs because they say that that they
tell us that the negotiations are making progress.
Wickoff is that I think explicitly said that he he was
(07:37):
going to only arrive when, when and if progress was being made.
At this stage. Right now, Hamas say that
they've given a list of prisoners, detainees who they
want to be released in exchange for the Israeli hostages.
You know, there's talk that perhaps something could be
agreed within the next couple ofdays.
(07:57):
Let's wait and see. There are also, you know, major
sticking points that that frankly, I'm not clear how we're
going to be resolved. For example, you know, Hamas
still wants a full Israeli, Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in
exchange for releasing the hostages.
Israel still wants Hamas to, to completely disarm itself.
(08:18):
Hamas does not want to to, to dothat.
Now, I think it's quite possiblethat some of those issues are
going to be somewhat kicked intothe longer grass and you're
going to, we're seeing a kind offirst stage of an agreement
being reached in which Israel commits to some kind of
withdrawal in exchange for the hostages.
And and then those even thornierissues around governance in
(08:43):
Gaza, Hamas's future, a completeIsraeli withdrawal are still,
are still, are still discussed. Hopefully whilst there's no,
there's an end to, to the bombing right now, you know,
there's still a degree of, of Israeli attacks going on, but
nothing like what we've seen in,in the past where it's routine
to see, you know, dozens, 5060, a hundred Palestinians in excess
(09:06):
of that of their times killed ona, on a, on a daily basis.
I just want to focus in on why Donald Trump is a person who's
able to do this. The relationship between America
and Israel, a relationship that has, you know, existed and been
unbelievably closed for decades.As Israel has become more
isolated, that bipartisan relationship has not weakened,
(09:27):
although Donald Trump is for thefirst time exerting pressure
onto Israel. I mean, this goes right back.
And we don't have to go all the way back in this conversation,
but, you know, to President Truman, you know, actually being
the first, I think, leader in the world to recognise the state
of Israel. And then after the 1967 war,
(09:48):
America particularly associatingitself with Israel, seeing
Israel as its absolute key ally in in that region.
Why? Why are these two countries as
close as they are? I mean, I'm sorry to say to our
viewers and listeners in the UK that while I do get the
impression since being here in the US, that they, the
Americans, do consider U.S. special, that there is no other
(10:12):
special relationship that tops Israel for Americans.
Why do you think that is? Yeah, You know, I was just
looking at some data today and it's going it was saying that
that since World War 2, I think there's been in excess of the
equivalent contemporary equivalent of around $300
billion of aid supplied by by America to Israel.
(10:34):
So it's been a huge, a huge support for for Israel continues
to be a huge support. You know, there's a guarantee of
around $3 billion of military aid that is supplied every year.
America wields huge political, cultural and, you know, economic
influence over over as well as its largest trading partner.
(10:55):
As well as you say, the relationship goes back to the
founding of Israel the the creation of it in 1948.
President Truman was actually somewhat his administration was
somewhat split over whether to recognise Israel or not.
He he went ahead with it. But but you know, particularly
during the Cold War, you saw thethe Americans ally themselves
(11:17):
with the Israelis on the on the other side, the Palestinians,
Yasser Arafat, the PLO, They were, they were left wing
movements. They were, you know, they were
not the, the Hamas of today, which are a religious
organization. They were, they were
secularists. They were part of the kind of
the left wing, anti colonial post colonial movements all
(11:38):
around the world. And so, you know, the Americans,
which were, you know, opposed tothe the Soviet Union, saw their
natural ally as as the Israelis.You've also seen American
administrations, for example, Clinton playing key roles in
trying to broker some kind of some kind of peace.
But you, you, you've seen, you know, consistent accusations
(12:00):
and, and feelings from the Palestinian side that the
Americans are, are, yes, they're, they're mediating and
they're negotiating, but they'realways favouring the favouring
the, the, the, the Israeli side.I mean, 11 American diplomat I
was speaking to not long after October the 7th, You know, it
gave me something of an insight into the personal connections
(12:22):
that some, that some Americans, I think feel towards Israel,
where he said, you know, I, I'm a Zionist in the same way that
President Biden is a Zionist in that I don't believe Europe can
be trusted with the Jews given their history.
And so they need their own homeland.
And that, that was to me was very interesting because that's
not the kind of language I'd ever really heard expressed by,
(12:46):
by politicians in, in, in, in Europe, even those who are
supportive of, of Israel and youknow, who, who want to ensure
Israel's security as, as well as, you know, a part of the
statehood for the, for the Palestinians.
So that was that was interestingto me.
And, and perhaps we can discuss it later, but there's also been,
you know, a very strong Christian Zionist movement in,
(13:09):
in the United States. And that has also been certainly
for the, the Republican Party, akey factor, I think in their, in
their support for, for Israel. Now what we're seeing, I think
is, is, is perhaps some levels of declining support in, in
America for, for, for, for Israel.
(13:29):
You know, 1 Israeli official I was speaking to last year who's
very into, had a big presence onsocial media.
He said, you know, we see what'shappening.
We see the protests in, in universities like Colombia.
And we realize that perhaps there's, there's a generational
shift and, and that this level of support that Israel has
traditionally received from America is not always going to
(13:50):
last initially. I mean, you're there in DC and I
wanted to ask you, I mean, how do you see all these competing
influences on President Trump when when it comes to Israel
policy on on the one hand, there's been, you know, this
very traditionally strong pro Israel lobby within American
politics. On the flip side, you know, he's
got strong ties in this good relationship with the Qataris,
(14:12):
with the Saudis. He wants to be a peacemaker.
What what's driving President Trump because it's something,
you know, that I here in London or when I'm in the Middle East
have, have, have always wanderedand have never really been able
to, to, to fathom. Well, what's driving President
Trump is his own desires for what he wants.
I said to a former negotiator who's worked for literally
decades on Middle East negotiations within Republican
(14:35):
and Democratic administrations about this.
And I said, really interested inthis split within the
administration between the people who are kind of Israel
1st and those who are America First.
And his argument was that in theend, almost doesn't matter
because Donald Trump doesn't listen to anyone.
You know, it doesn't kind of really matter what they're
saying to him because it's just what his desire is.
(14:55):
And clearly at the moment, and Idon't mean to be facetious with
this, but I think he really, really wants a Nobel Peace
Prize. And this is the kind of ultimate
point at which he knows he has the power to get it.
And we'll come into why I think Donald Trump has this particular
power at the moment. But in terms of those divides,
you know, in 2019, Donald Trump said he was the most pro Israeli
(15:17):
president in history. And when we looked at the
formation of his team initially that it really speaks to that.
I mean, you talk about evangelical Christians.
Mike Huckabee, who is the ambassador for America to
Israel, is an evangelical Christian who I don't think can
even bring himself to say the words.
West Bank thinks that the West Bank is an area that by God's
(15:37):
will belongs to Jewish people and is a really, really key
player in all of this. You've also got Marco Rubio as
the Secretary of State who is really, you know, quite hawkish
when it comes to the Israel situation.
But we have a really interestingsituation unfolding in the US
where even on the right there are now big divides in this,
(15:59):
including the rise of some anti-Semitism.
It feels like to me within that MAGA Make America Great movement
again, we have very kind of highprofile figures like Tucker
Carlson who are now really, really critical about Israel.
There are a lot of conspiracy theories about the death of
Charlie Kirk that are doing the rounds that people are talking
(16:20):
about. The podcasts in which some of
these things are being discussedare the most listened to
podcasts sack even more listeners than we've got right
now here. And and that is happening on the
right. Meanwhile, we have an age divide
where younger people are much less sympathetic to Israel than
some older people, even within their own families, even within
(16:41):
the Jewish community. I spent, you know, a recent day
in New York with liberal Jewish communities who were really,
really unhappy about what was happening in Gaza and were
telling me about the difficult conversations they were actually
having with their parents back home.
If you look at the polling, you know, sentiment has shifted
that, you know, there's more sympathy towards Israel here
(17:03):
than there, it towards Israelis here than there is towards
Palestinians. But the gap has massively closed
and the sympathy has actually dropped below 50%, which it has,
I think in Gallup's polling donefor the first time since they've
been doing that polling. So there is a shift and Donald
Trump will be aware of that. But but I just want to ask you
this, actually, Donald Trump's position that he's put himself
(17:26):
out as, as the most pro Israeli president has in many ways, I
think got us to where we are now.
On the one hand, as someone was saying to me, America hasn't
actually imposed a single cost or consequence on Israel
throughout all of this. And I think it's really
important to remember that now. And even now he's talking about
giving Benjamin Netanyahu the green light to obliterate Hamas
(17:49):
if they don't agree to what he'sputting forward.
But, but is there also an argument that in Israel, in
Israel, that relationship with the US is so important?
The relationship with the US president is so important.
And it's even more important nowwhen there is that massive
isolation across the rest of theworld and that has empowered
(18:09):
Donald Trump to be stronger whenit comes to this and to put much
more pressure on Netanyahu, including, as we've seen, you
know, he he does lose his tempo.You saw in June, he said that
neither Iran nor Israel knew what the F they were doing.
Some people say that was more hot air than substantive.
(18:30):
I'm interested in your view on that.
But behind the scenes here, it looks like he's picked up the
phone to Netanyahu, who said there was nothing to celebrate
when Hamas said they were open to agreeing to the beginning of
this and telling him to stop being so effing negative.
I mean, is he the one man in theworld who can actually influence
Netanyahu? Yeah, I think you're.
You're absolutely right. I mean, I remember for example,
when when the Trump administration was coming into
(18:52):
office in, in in January and special envoy Steve Witkoff was
going flying into to, to Israel to meet Prime Minister Netanyahu
as part of negotiation to try and introduce a, a, a ceasefire.
Just as as Trump was going to besworn in.
And he was he wanted to meet Netanyahu on on Saturday, the
Shabbat, the, the holy day for, for, for in Israel, for, for the
(19:14):
Jewish people when people don't wouldn't normally work.
And so Prime Minister Netanyahu said, I, you know, I can't meet
you during the day. And, and Witkoff is reported to
have said, look, I don't care. You're meeting me.
Trump wants me to meet you. You're meeting me.
And, and, and Netanyahu turned up and, and, and met him.
And I mean, the, the, I think the big difference is yes,
there's, there's of course the, the relationship between Israel
(19:36):
and, and, and America that's strong.
But you can see the difference in tone that Netanyahu talks
with President Trump with compared to how we talked with,
with, with Biden, you know, who's also president, Because I
think the difference is that when, when Biden was in power,
Netanyahu always had in the backof his mind, he's on his way out
(19:57):
and Trump is coming and Trump isgoing to give us everything we
want. He's going to.
And that was very much the tone within, within, within the
Israeli, within the Israeli, particularly right wing
political sphere where they thought, right, Trump is going
to come in because on, on the back, as, as you said, in his
first administration, he recognized Jerusalem as the, the
(20:17):
capital of Israel. He, you know, put forward a.
Deal of the century plan that would have recognised Israeli
control over lots of settlements, for example.
So they thought right. And and all the noises from
Trump on the campaign trail werealso about about Biden is not
strong enough on in supporting Israel.
So I think Netanyahu was able tokind of bat off anything that
(20:40):
that Biden tried to throw at him.
Not that really Biden ever really tried to exert any
pressure. We saw kind of tough words at
times from people like Blinken 0National, I think.
Largely supplying billions pounds worth of weapons?
No, rather than any actual pressure?
Exactly. Exactly.
I mean, you saw words, right? You saw Blinken saying, OK, the
level of killing is is unacceptable, but what does that
(21:02):
mean if you're continuing to send all the weapons?
And so where's now, where does Netanyahu go?
He's got, he's got no one else other than Trump.
I mean, even he's, as we've discussed, like his European
allies have become increasingly frustrated.
They've, you know, they're backing the idea of A2 state
solution, something that he's become increasingly vocal and
in, in, in opposing. So that has a, a kind of a bit,
(21:26):
a big weight. You know, I think it's, it's
interesting when you're in Israel, I've, you know, I've
spent so many Saturday nights atthe, the, the protests in Tel
Aviv in solidarity with the, with the, with the hostages
where, you know, large numbers of people there are anti
government, fed up with the, with the Netanyahu government,
frustrated by the fact that he hasn't signed a deal that would
(21:47):
bring the hostages back. And so many of them direct their
appeals not to Netanyahu, but toPresident Trump.
They're like going over his head.
They're like, I want to speak tothe head teacher in this
situation. Basically, Sir, can you sort
this mess out? Because we want our hostages
back and, and, and we have no trust in our own leadership to
(22:07):
do it. You're the one who can do it.
And, you know, I saw videos of hostages once they've been
released, going and meeting President Trump in, in the Oval
Office and they're all praising him, lavishing him with these,
you know, words of Sir, you're the only one who could do this.
As soon as you came to office, we knew that you would be able
to get things moving again. Everyone wants to say yes.
(22:29):
No one wants to say no. That includes Hamas, right?
I mean, you look at the statement that Hamas gave that
that in relation to this, this US plan, it was, it was a yes,
but but it was, it was framed invery positive language.
And that allowed Trump, I think,to latch onto it with a as being
a yes, rather than focusing on the on the but, which is
(22:51):
definitely what Prime Minister Netanyahu was hoping to do, I
think. Yeah, it is it.
Is fascinating, 1 Middle East analyst said to me yesterday.
And I wasn't completely convinced by this, but
interested in your opinion that maybe Netanyahu doesn't mind
some of this pressure from Donald Trump because it gives
him something to play against those who are even further to
the right of him in the cabinet.I mean, it was quite telling
(23:13):
that when he was here at the White House 4th visit this year,
you know, by far, I think the the person who's been here the
most since Trump's second presidency began.
And he had to do obviously the theatrics of what Donald Trump
likes, call the Qatari Prime Minister on the phone and
apologise for the strike in on Doha that immediately the those
(23:35):
to the right of him in the cabinet were criticising what he
was doing, were really unhappy with it.
Do you think it almost gives Netanyahu a tiny bit of cover or
do you think he's probably quitefrustrated with how far Donald
Trump has now gone? You know it's it's.
Hard to get into the mind of President Trump.
It's even harder, I would say, to get into the mind of of Prime
Minister Netanyahu and, and whatexactly he wants.
(23:58):
He was always being described certainly to me as someone
who's, you know, a master strategist and someone who's not
necessarily really particularly ideologically driven, but just
someone who is interested in maintain maintaining power.
Certainly that and that's the critique you get from lots of
his opponents within Israel who say that he's prolonged the war
for his own political gain to keep his, his coalition with
(24:22):
those far right Israeli, frankly, extremist parties keep
to keep that alive, to keep thatgoing.
Also keeping an eye on the fact that he's got a, a trial
ongoing. And and, you know, more focus
will inevitably fall on that if and when the war, the war ends.
And and certainly if there's newelections, it, it seems unlikely
(24:44):
at the moment that he would, he would, he would win those, those
elections. I mean, going back to Trump as
well, though, I mean, what what's interesting to me is the
way he's kind of oscillated. So January, he pushes through a
ceasefire and the far right in Israel was shocked.
I mean, I remember like the settler leader, Daniella Weiss,
who's like the godmother, the settler movement saying, you
(25:06):
know, he came into power saying he was going to give Hamas hell.
He's giving us hell. And they were, they were
rattled. Then just a few weeks later, you
have Trump saying, actually, there's going to be a plan
that's going to basically ethniccleanse Gaza and take it over.
And Netanyahu was sitting there next to him and you could see
Netanyahu thinking, wow. I mean, this is language that I
(25:29):
haven't used that this is this is very much the language that
my far right partners, Smotrich and and Ben Gavir are on board
with. And and then kind of the Israeli
government caught up with with Trump.
And you know, similarly, when, when Israel blocked off all
humanitarian aid for, for like 2months, you know, the situation
that led to basically the declaration of famine that we,
(25:52):
that we've had in, in Gaza, who had not a like, not a squeak out
of Trump, right? There was no pressure really, it
seemed to to resume humanitarianaid.
By contrast, Biden did. I mean, that's one of the few
instances where I think he managed to exert some pressure
on on Netanyahu. And straight after October the
7th, they put a lot of pressure on them to to resume supplies
(26:15):
to, you know, inadequate levels of supplies, but some supplies
back into Gaza after they had been initially completely,
completely cut off. But I think right now Netanyahu
definitely feels under pressure from Trump.
He feels like he has nowhere else to turn.
So whatever Trump dictates, he'sgoing to have to go along with.
We saw him like being able to play, I think Trump, certainly
(26:40):
Biden in the past by coming up with new demands, framing
acceptances, framing de facto refusals of of agreements as
acceptances. Right now, there seems to be a
momentum that seems to be sweeping him away.
But there's still, there's stilla long way to go.
(27:00):
And you know what, what, what, what I'm wondering is how long
will this conflict sustain President Trump's interest,
especially if we we only reach some kind of initial phase of a
deal where all the hostages are out.
You know, Hamas has a big fear that we give away all our
leverage. What's to stop Israel resuming
the war, The Qataris and the Saudis and Egyptians obviously
(27:22):
pressuring the Americans to givesome kind of guarantees around
that. But I mean, how do you use it?
Do you think that that that Trump wants to see a lasting
peace? I mean, he, he doesn't, he's
been very critical of the Europeans for recognising
Palestine as a, as a state or, or is he focused on a more short
(27:43):
term win? It's really hard to know.
Because of the the isolation that you talk about and you
know, just to give another example of it, you talk about
the Ukraine. We talked a lot about the
Ukraine situation, about Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
You know, in the summer, Donald Trump was talking about Ukraine
will have to cede land in order for that to end.
(28:03):
Then suddenly he was talking about the idea that Ukraine
could win back all the land thathas already been taken.
I mean, these two positions are so far apart, it's hard to
understand how the same person could mutter those words.
And I think we have a similar situation here with Israel and
Gaza that you've just set out. I think the kind of the drive
for him, and you've mentioned itwhen you've mentioned the other
(28:23):
Arab countries that involved in these talks, is that, you know,
he wants to, in the long term, try to normalise relations
between Israel and Arab countries, in particular between
Israel and Saudi Arabia. In reality, that's quite a long
way away because of the butts inthe yes, butts.
And I just want to come to thosein a minute.
(28:45):
But, you know, just remember, this is a president who
travelled to Qatar, a country that he's been so critical of in
the past and had a absolutely lavish, you know, trip there.
You know, I was speaking to someof the Qataris, they were saying
the first time they've ever actually had an official visit
from AUS president, although US presidents have been there
before because of the American base that is there.
(29:05):
How furious or not he really waswhen Israel struck Doha.
He wants the world to think he'sfurious about that because he
sees those relationships with Arab countries as incredibly
important. And, you know, I wouldn't say on
the same level as his relationship with Israel, but
not so far off. And so for him, actually there
(29:27):
is a kind of personal desire in terms of the long term Middle
East policy for America, which has actually crossed through
Biden and back to Donald Trump, which is that normalisation if
they can get to it between those.
At one point he was talking about the idea of actually
having a security pact between those countries, but then he has
the issue with with especially with the Doha strike, those
(29:47):
countries are increasingly seeing Israel as a pariah in all
of this. Now, as much as he's pressuring
Israel, they're obviously pressuring Hamas.
As you say, the Qataris really pushing hard for written
guarantees from Israel. Now, in terms of what happens,
you know, after the hostages were released, then Hamas have
no leverage over Israel. How do we then guarantee what
(30:10):
comes next? And let's just talk about that
because, you know, I sat and watched Benjamin Netanyahu at
the UN General Assembly. He couldn't have been clearer.
He does not want a Palestinian state.
He stood there and he said giving the Palestinians and he
said Palestinians, not Hamas, Palestinians, a state a mile
from Jerusalem is like giving AlQaeda a state a mile from New
(30:32):
York. He then travelled to the White
House. He had a six hour meeting where
he insisted on a number of editsto the 20 point peace plan, some
of which are pretty significant around the timetable of the
Israeli withdrawal. He made changes that apparently
made some of the Arab officials furious.
(30:52):
He then stood up in the White House.
He agreed to this plan. He didn't take a single question
from journalists and and .19 of the plan talks about a path
towards Palestinian statehood. It has lots of caveats set, but
it talks about a plan to Palestinian statehood.
And then within no time at all, Benjamin Netanyahu makes a video
message saying there will not bea Palestinian state for the Arab
(31:15):
countries. When I talk to sources who are
working with the Arab countries,there will never be a
normalisation for them with Israel until it is very clear
what that path to a Palestinian state is.
So as as positive as we are at the moment about the hope of a
hostage exchange with all these detainees in Israel who have
been held without any sense of atrial, the butts are quite
(31:39):
important, aren't they? Like how likely is it that
whatever we get this week actually leads to a position
where we are moving towards a 2 state solution or or do you see
that as impossible with this Israeli government?
Yeah. Look, it's, it's an interesting
question in this game. I mean, I mean, so many people
(31:59):
I've, I've, I've read and talkedto have said that what we're
looking at now, you know, is, isreally a, a, a ceasefire rather
than an end to the conflict. And, and, you know, let's not
denigrate the importance of a ceasefire, you know,
particularly when you have famine that 10s of thousands of
(32:20):
Palestinians killed. I mean, you know, the worst
humanitarian disaster taking place under it in front of our
eyes right now in, in, in, in Gaza.
You know, that's clearly, that is clearly the immediate
priority. But yes, I mean, the, the idea
of a longer lasting just solution for, for, for everyone
(32:42):
in the region looks to be a verydistant prospect.
I mean, what's interesting to meis, is being in Israel, you
know, when so many of those Western countries were were
recognizing A Palestinian state,it wasn't just Prime Minister
Netanyahu who came out in opposition to it.
It was right across the political spectrum.
You know, it was the head of theopposition, it was the Yaya
(33:04):
Lapid, it was Yaya Galan who's the head of the Democrats, the
kind of the main, you know, further to the left party.
Certainly. You know, the person who's
perhaps if he, if he, if he endsup formally running Naftali
Bennett, who, who, who might become the new Prime Minister.
He's he's, you know, another right wing figure.
He's absolutely viscerally opposed to, to, to, to A2 state
(33:27):
solution. So, you know, it's not just
necessarily a question of right,this government is voted out,
which is, is quite likely to happen when there are elections
next year. And you know, we might see a new
attitude. At the moment there is no
appetite at all. In fact, there's absolute
determination not to allow a Palestinian state to, to, to be
(33:47):
created. Of course things can change.
And you know, you are like I, I was speaking to a Palestinian
official from, from the Palestinian Authority, you know,
who, who it's hoped would have arole in, in, in governing Gaza
instead of Hamas in the future. And I said to him, you know,
actually prior to October the 7th, all the polls in in the
(34:08):
West Bank, and probably, I thinkpolls still now certainly in the
West Bank would show that if there were democratic elections
which have not taken place for around 2 decades there, then
Hamas would be elected. So how do you deal with that
like that? That's the reality of what
people feel on the ground. And he said the problem is like,
we can't, you can't polling now.People's emotions are so
(34:29):
inflamed that there's no point. There's no point or there's a
limited value in in asking them their views right now.
Ask after everything as as the dust has settled somewhat and
then and when we have results toshow people.
So perhaps the same could happenin Israel.
Perhaps we'll see, you know, in a year's time, six months time,
(34:51):
perhaps we'll see a a greater mood of reflection.
I mean, we've seen a kind of a small but growing vocal left
wing movement on the on the ground in Israel that that's
kind of more opposed to, to, to Israeli actions.
But I mean, when you look at thereality, particularly in the in
the occupied West Bank, which isa place where I spend a lot of
time, because as you know, foreign journalists are, are
(35:12):
banned from getting into Gaza bythe Israelis.
You know, the way that you have 500,000 settlers, Israeli
settlers now living there, carving up the territory.
It seems on the face of it to make any kind of future
Palestinian state extremely, extremely, extremely difficult,
if not impossible, certainly without visionary, very
(35:33):
motivated leadership on, on on all sides, particularly on the
Israeli side. And and that doesn't seem to be
something that's on the cards and just a.
Final thought from me on that and then we'll wrap up.
But the question you asked me about what where does America
stand on the long term? Does it want a lasting peace?
I was in the White House briefing room this week
(35:54):
listening to Press Secretary Caroline Leavitt and and the
absolute focus was on getting this first stage done, getting
security guarantees for Israel in particular and getting to a
ceasefire as fast as they can. When she was asked by an
American journalist, do you then, you know, if there is then
a technocratic Palestinian leadership in Gaza, do you then
(36:17):
support the idea of a Palestinian state?
She wouldn't be drawn on it at all and basically said, let's
not get ahead of ourselves. So for all the pressure Trump is
exerting right now, I don't think we should kid ourselves
that America is going to come all out in terms of completing
the plan. And support for Israel remains
very strong within this administration.
(36:39):
Seth, thank you so much for yourtime and for being with us
today. I really, really appreciate it.
Good to be with you. That was Sakanda Kamani, our
foreign affairs correspondent here at Channel 4 News.
Do watch all of his amazing content.
That's it for this week at TrumpWORLD.
Next week, I'll be back with Matt when he returns from
(37:01):
holiday. See you then.
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