May 16, 2025 • 31 mins
We’re continuing the series on Dr. Steve Peters' book, "A Path Through the Jungle.” This one focuses on Depression, how to gain perspective, how to recognize depressive thoughts, and how to take care of your Chimp so that it doesn’t get worse. Dr. Liz talks about different paths you can take with different thoughts and the importance of action.
*** Suicide is mentioned around RT 24:00 min.
“Helpful Autopilots” phrases are given throughout this episode.
“A Path through the Jungle” can be purchased on Amazon: https://a.co/d/4hx7M7M
See more about Dr. Peters at https://chimpmanagement.com
Previous episodes in this series are at:
Stop your Chimp’s Panic Attacks >>>>https://drlizhypnosis.com/hm316-stop-your-chimps-panic-attacks-with-dr-liz
Manage your Anxiety by Managing your Chimp >>>> https://drlizhypnosis.com/hm315-manage-your-anxiety-by-managing-your-chimp
Your Chimp vs your Human >>>>https://drlizhypnosis.com/hm313-from-inner-chaos-to-inner-peace
About Dr. Liz
Winner of numerous awards including Top 100 Moms in Business, Dr. Liz provides psychotherapy, hypnotherapy, and hypnosis to people wanting a fast, easy way to transform all around the world. She has a PhD in Clinical Psychology, is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor (LMHC) and has special certification in Hypnosis and Hypnotherapy. Specialty areas include Anxiety, Insomnia, and Deeper Emotional Healing.
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Do you have Chronic Insomnia? Find out more about Dr. Liz’s Better Sleep Program at https://bit.ly/sleepbetterfeelbetter
Search episodes at the Podcast Page http://bit.ly/HM-podcast
Help yourself with Hypnosis Downloads by Dr. Liz! http://bit.ly/HypnosisMP3Downloads
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A problem shared is a problem halved. In person and online hypnosis and CBT for healing and transformation. Schedule your free consultation at https://www.drlizhypnosis.com.
Listened to in over 140 countries, Hypnotize Me is the podcast about hypnosis, transformation, and healing. Certified hypnotherapist and Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Dr. Liz Bonet, discusses hypnosis and interviews professionals doing transformational work
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey everyone.
Dr Liz, here we are doing an episode on A
Path Through the Jungle by Dr Steve Peters.
This one is on depression.
I did one laying the groundwork what is
that versus human?
(00:23):
One on anxiety, one on panic attacks and
this one is on depression.
This is a hard one, I'll tell you, because
I find it very easy to be an anxiety
specialist.
I find it fun actually to help people
decrease anxiety, get rid of their panic
attacks.
(00:46):
Get rid of their panic attacks, face
phobias, fears that are coming up, you know,
when people stop driving places and then
they're able to drive again very satisfying.
Depression is harder for me because I
really can relate to the thoughts going on
that the world is awful and there's, it's
pointless and why do anything.
These are all depression thoughts.
(01:07):
They're also all messages from the chimp,
not the human, and it's like, yeah, I get
it, I've been there.
I used to struggle myself with cyclical
depression.
I would say so every couple of years I'd go
into a depressive episode.
I had severe postpartum depression with
(01:29):
both of my kids after they were born, so I
had been in therapy for years, which was
helpful, absolutely.
Talk therapy went and did what's called
core healing, hypnosis, with a mentor of
(01:50):
mine who really looked at the underlying
beliefs of what's causing this depression,
because we often have this default of
depression or anxiety.
Sometimes both that happens and gets
established when we're really young.
She did some really deep hypnosis work with
me to knock that depression belief that's
(02:12):
driving the depression out, and it was very
effective.
That was probably, that was 2018.
And it is 2025 that I'm recording this and
I have not had a depressive episode since
and that feels somewhat like a miracle to
(02:34):
me because we did go through the pandemic.
We have been through a major move to
Jacksonville.
Sometimes I find it creeping in and I will
move into action before it gets worse.
So I think that was part of that hypnotic
work.
I also trained in that technique myself and
(02:54):
I've helped many, many people with it.
So if you have been to talk therapy a long
time and you're like, why can't I get rid
of my depression, maybe hypnosis is for you,
whether it's with me or somebody else.
Anyway, let's see what Dr Peter says about
depression and how it's coming about.
(03:15):
According to Dr Peter's, depression occurs
when the chimp takes over.
Remember, the chimp is the one that sends
emotional messages to us, so emotional
messages like it's hopeless, you're
worthless, there's nothing you can do,
(03:36):
everything's just going to remain awful.
That would be a chimp depression message.
And then sometimes, often past experiences,
internal thoughts that we tell ourselves,
sometimes unresolved trauma, feed these
negative thought cycles that the chimp is
throwing at us.
Now, remember it's the human that comes in
(03:58):
and has to solve the problem.
The chimp can't do it.
And the human is that logical, rational
part of our brains.
It's informed by our computer, that storage
system for beliefs and habits, and helpful
autopilots, or unhelpful autopilots, those
gremlins and goblins that come in.
That's where subconscious beliefs come in
(04:19):
as well.
So these unhelpful thought processes, these
gremlins and goblins, come in and feed the
depression.
Instead of telling the chimp, hey, go, take
a hike, we've got the sandal they decide to
like go on the playground or, let's say,
swing from tree to tree with the chimp.
(04:40):
Then the chimp starts to dominate and take
over.
You're likely to get stuck unless we move
into human mode to find a solution, unless
we exercise the chimp as well, unless we
recognize like, hey, the chimp needs some
attention here and we need to go into
(05:00):
action to make sure the chimp doesn't take
over.
There's another episode I ran called
depression prevention plan that would be
going into action.
Like, oh, the chimp is coming up and saying
all kinds of bullshit.
Let's say right, and I've got to get a
handle on this, I've got to get those
helpful autopilots going.
(05:21):
And this is really hard.
I am not pretending it's easy.
It's very difficult to see.
Sometimes it takes a lot of energy to go
into action.
Often and depression is a lack of energy
you really do want to sleep more.
You're more tired, you're more fatigued.
(05:41):
Thinking about getting out and taking even
a brief walk or something like that feels
overwhelming often, depending on what level
that depression is at.
So not saying this is easy, but I am saying
it is helpful to get out of the depression
or to not let the depression get worse.
(06:02):
So what do we do?
Sometimes it's finding just a very small,
manageable action that you can take like,
okay, I'm, I'm just going to do this one
thing today, for example, I moved from
South Florida, where I had been living over
30 years, to North Florida in February of
(06:26):
this year, 2025.
And so my practice, which was
well-established down in South Florida, I
always had lots of referrals, often full.
My practice took a hit when I moved because
nobody knows me here.
The doctors don't know me here yet, the
other therapists that live here don't know
me yet.
(06:47):
And so this fear came up and with a tiny
bit of depression, I would say it's like,
oh my God, how am I going to support myself?
I did have savings Planning for the move.
I knew, okay, often when you move, your
practice goes down some.
So I've got to have enough to cover that
Feeling that I'm giving the example of is
(07:09):
actually fear and sometimes helplessness.
Fear will create anxiety, helplessness will
create depression.
Like there's nothing I can do about.
This is depression.
If I had worthlessness on top of that,
which I don't, it'd be worse.
Like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to
(07:30):
succeed would be some worthlessness in
there.
I don't have what it takes to build a new
practice.
That would be some worthlessness in there.
That's not the case for me, but that's an
example of depressive thoughts.
It's okay to talk these out, write them
(07:52):
down, express them in what Peter says, a
healthy, contained way.
He calls this like exercising the chimp,
like the chimps got to speak.
It's going to tell you what it needs to
tell you.
But then, once we do that, we move into
solutions.
So we don't stay with the chimp.
(08:12):
We don't let the chimp take over and just
continue to tell us these awful things.
Instead, we start to move to our truths of
life or helpful autopilots.
A helpful autopilot for me is I've built
several businesses in my life.
I've moved to new areas before I can do
(08:33):
this again.
I know how to reach out and build
connections with people.
Those are all helpful autopilots.
I know I'm a good therapist.
I've got to let other people know that I'm
a good therapist and have them directly
experience that.
Not that they're going to become clients if
they're a doctor and I'm getting referrals
from them, I mean sometimes, but more like,
oh, they get to meet me and just get my
(08:56):
vibe and see that I'm a professional and
those type of things.
But everyone has their own truths of life
that help them through.
There's a couple he gives in the book of
there are always good people around to lean
on.
I can always create my own sunshine.
(09:19):
That's a cute one, huh.
People are unlikely to change, but I can
change my approach towards them.
That's a really interesting one.
If your experience is that people stay the
same they don't change no matter what I do,
you still have control over your own self.
I can change how I approach them.
So I like that one Effort and results don't
(09:40):
always go hand in hand.
He says this might be useful if you always
try very hard, but things don't always work
out.
Again interesting A very American thought
is if you put in enough effort, you'll get
the result.
Sometimes it's the type of effort Sometimes
it takes stepping back and seeing am I
(10:03):
making the effort in the right place?
I've learned that through being a business
owner Some things end up being completely
irrelevant to building your business.
You don't know at the time.
You can only know afterwards.
You can look around at other businesses,
you can listen to business podcasts, you
can look at different ideas.
(10:25):
You can make business plans.
You can look at others' business plans, you
can read a lot of books, but at some point
you've got to take the step to get the
experience, to try the different things and
get the information back.
Another one he says is sometimes the bad
guys win.
Man, that one's hard for me.
(10:47):
He says this could be relevant if injustice
has happened to you and it's like yeah, man,
clearly sometimes the bad guys win.
Just because someone's successful does not
mean that they're a good person or doing
good things in the world or the reverse,
that you're a good person, that you're
(11:07):
going to win.
So if we use that to get out of depression
instead of be depressed, it's very
different.
We could easily use that and say, well,
sometimes the bad guys win, so there's no
point in trying Like that would be a
depressive thought that leads you down to
hang out with the chimp versus sometimes
(11:29):
the bad guys win.
Sometimes the bad guys win and that is a
fact of life.
But that doesn't mean that my efforts don't
make a difference in the world, that I
can't help other people and create meaning
and take steps to do that, take steps to
make myself feel better and win in my own
ways.
Those would be out of depression kind of
(11:50):
thoughts.
So you've got to be careful.
You can't just take it and lead it down the
negative path.
You really have to take them and say, okay,
let's say this one to help myself feel
better.
Another one he gives is there will always
be good times ahead.
(12:17):
Always be good times ahead.
Now you could again take this one and say,
okay, yeah, occasionally I get five minutes
of relief.
I watch a funny show, or I read a book that
I like, or I go out in nature and get some
relief.
I see a beautiful tree or some flowers.
You have to find what works for you.
I'm going to talk a little bit about
quilting here.
(12:38):
I hand quilt and so it'll often take me
nine months to a year to make a quilt and
there are sometimes years in between me
starting another quilt.
They're floating around in my head.
I see them all the time because I'm in
those social media circles.
I guess Like oh, that's a beautiful quilt,
(12:59):
oh, I'd love to do this.
Or a newsletter comes, or I buy quilting
magazines.
Be easy to get down on myself to say why
haven't you started a new quilt?
You're so lazy, you're not being productive.
Those are messages from my childhood.
I wasn't ever called lazy, but definitely
productivity was prioritized in my family,
(13:23):
and so when I feel like I'm not being
productive, sometimes the chimp comes up
and starts doing this little dance.
I have to say, well, I'm percolating.
When the time is right to start a new quilt,
I will Related to this there's always good
times ahead.
Be like well, if I really want to feel
(13:45):
better, I can start a quilt.
Like.
I know that that helps me feel better, even
though the effort seems very large at the
beginning, because I know it's a long-term
project.
But that's an example of you find something
that you really like to do.
You may not start it, but you can say, well,
I could probably do that in the future and
(14:08):
I know that will make me feel good.
There's always a beautiful flower to see.
I'm seeing all kinds of new flowers and
plants up here that they don't have in
South Florida.
It's too warm.
I saw a beautiful little wildflower called
the powder puff yesterday.
It's like it looks like a little purple
dandelion.
(14:28):
It's so pretty.
It was just outside the office of the
dentist that I was going to, so I stopped
and took a picture and sent it to my girls
and said look at this beautiful little
purple flowers.
They're so pretty.
So it's like, ok, there's always a
beautiful flower to see.
I can take myself to the art museum or I
(14:50):
can take myself just on a walk down the
street.
I can take myself on an excursion to help
me feel better, myself on an excursion to
help me feel better.
So you want to do these things so that
you're tapping into some of your own truths
of life, not buying into the chimp's
(15:13):
message.
Dr Peters calls it.
You got to box the chimp.
You can't let the chimp take over.
Let the feelings express, then move to your
truce, your helpful autopilots to combat
the depressive thoughts that the chimp is
throwing at you.
Now he doesn't say to make this like pie in
(15:33):
the sky.
We are addressing reality.
Addressing reality, and he calls these
building the stone of life, like a strong
inner foundation, and what that is is
addressing what life actually is like, not
what we wish it was like Like.
(15:56):
Sometimes life really does suck.
Sometimes things don't happen the way we
want them to, in very small ways and in
much larger ways.
Sometimes the checkout line at the grocery
store is much longer than we thought it was
going to be and now we're running late.
Or sometimes people get elected to office
that we don't appreciate and it didn't work
out like we wanted it to.
Sometimes people are not nice to us and we
(16:17):
want them to be.
Sometimes people are not nice to us and we
want them to be Our partner's not in a good
mood.
Sometimes we have to face these realities
and this is a constant state of flux for
most people.
Like even a partner, you're negotiating
things that you like and you don't like,
things that are annoying.
Author.
There's an older author.
(16:37):
I have no idea if he's published something
recent, but his name was Dr Harley.
Like the motorcycle Dr Harley, he had all
these books about couples and he had this
whole list of what he called love busters
like annoying things that your partner does
that certainly don't build love and can
(16:58):
certainly break down love if they're too
severe, and his advice was to negotiate
some of them.
Negotiate as many as you could Like hey, do
you mind not picking your nose while I'm
around?
It's annoying to me If that partner says,
yeah, that's cool, just do it.
You know, in private you're good to go.
(17:19):
If they say, no, I really like to pick my
nose all the time.
I don't care if you're around.
Then you got to say okay, let's, you know,
let's talk about this.
You understand that that makes me feel like
you're disgusting and then I'm less
attracted to you and then, if I'm less
attracted to you, we have sex less.
We have sex less than we lose some of our
(17:41):
connection and that might lead to divorce.
It's like people don't think about it that
way.
Let's just say a lot of people don't like
to think about divorce Probably not a great
thing to say to your partner, so let me.
Take that back.
I don't know how you want to put it to them.
Some people just don't take it down the
path, and so don't take it down the path.
And so once you take it down the path for
(18:02):
them, they're much more likely to change if
you really know the reason underneath.
There's some things people can't change,
and in coupleship that's part of acceptance.
There's all these wonderful things about my
partner and there are some not so wonderful
things.
They're not a perfect person, and so I have
to decide.
(18:24):
Am I going to let these things depress and
annoy me and create anxiety and that's
where the chimp, would you know, start
doing their dance and a little hoo-haas or
am I going to box that and say, yep, that's
one of the realities of life.
Our partners don't always do what we want
them to do.
As part of truths of life, people can
(18:45):
disappoint us.
Life is uncertain, feelings change all the
time.
And then he also talks about personal
values.
I talk about this a lot in my practice of
acting in a way that's consistent with our
own personal values, and these are
decisions we make.
Yes, our parents help instill values into
(19:07):
us, and then, as adults, we make the
decision about the values we want to live
by and act in accordance.
All of this, when we go through these types
of things and when we even talk out the
problem, get ideas, builds resilience,
which we also like to call grit now.
(19:28):
It gives us the ability to get through
difficult times.
So the feelings of depression is often a
message.
I believe that you do need to make some
adjustments.
They're not just to be ignored, just like
the anxiety message, like something needs
to be adjusted here.
(19:49):
We need to go into some kind of action.
The chimp needs to be taken care of in some
way.
When it's depression we don't just come up
with a helpful thought, we also do actions.
So in the morning you can check in with
yourself how am I feeling right now?
And then you can ask is this my chimp
(20:09):
speaking or my human?
If you notice an emotional trigger, you can
pause and ask is this my chimp reacting?
Do I need to vent my emotions, talk them
out, write them down, voice note, talk it
through and then can I now either reframe
(20:34):
it with a helpful thought, with one of my
core beliefs, with a helpful thought, with
one of my core beliefs, or can I set a core
value intention at that moment or for the
day that can sound like I'll practice
kindness to myself.
Today, I'll go out and do one thing outside
(20:55):
of the house.
Perhaps it's acknowledging.
This feeling won't last forever.
I've handled tough days before.
I've handled tough times before.
If you want to go more to the spiritual, it
may be there's reasons that I'm here in
this life.
It may be difficult, but I'm still here.
(21:18):
There's a reason for that.
It may be difficult, but I'm still here.
There's a reason for that For me.
I've had several bouts of suicidal thoughts
in my life, but I was unwilling to act on
it because I had children.
It's like nope, my children need me, they
need me to stick around.
Now, sometimes, when someone becomes
severely suicidal, they think that their
(21:39):
kids are better off, or their loved ones
are better off without them, like they
truly begin to believe that their very
presence is hurting their children or their
loved ones.
Depending on your own beliefs, you may
think that suicide is a legitimate out, or
you may believe okay, they need some help.
(22:02):
To put things more in perspective, to come
back to reality that their children or
loved ones very much need them and love
them.
Maybe that's not the case, though, you know.
And so they decide to check out.
You know, and so they decide to check out.
You can focus more on the small helpful
(22:23):
thoughts, like I got out of bed today.
I answered a message, I checked my email, I
read a page in a book, I took a brief walk,
I stepped outside and just let the sunshine
hit my skin.
So these are actions that you can take.
(22:44):
It's not just all thought work.
Particularly with depression, I think
action is really important.
Anxiety too.
Often when someone's in a really difficult
anxiety spiral, the advice is take one
small action to help solve your problem.
(23:09):
You could say the same thing with
depression Take one small action to help
solve your problem.
Like maybe you can't do 30 minutes of
exercise but you could do a five minute
workout and maybe you just half-ass it but
you get through it.
You say okay, I did five minutes, good
(23:31):
enough, that's good enough for today.
Now Peters has some interesting advice
about gaining perspective.
He says that you've got to program your
computer to recognize when you're losing
perspective, because once you've lost
(23:51):
perspective it's very difficult to get it
back without some outside help.
Let's say he says to program the computer
to see the bigger picture, make bigger
picture statements, like problems do
eventually get solved.
Solutions can be found.
We never know what is around the corner.
(24:14):
Everything we experience in life will
change with time.
Those are bigger picture kind of statements.
These run around as memes these days that
people pass to each other.
Another way is to think of deathbed advice.
People are on their deathbed and you know
(24:35):
they're always saying eat more ice cream,
spend more time with your family that type
of thing.
You find your own deathbed advice.
Focus on what really matters for me.
Service Volunteering always helps me feel
good.
If one place doesn't work out, I try a
different place.
(24:55):
Kittens, people it's all about kittens.
Man, kittens always make you feel really
good.
You know, I could combat that if I want.
The chimp could come up and say oh no,
kittens don't always make you feel better.
What about all the sick and hurt kittens in
the world, ones that don't have homes?
That's a chimp thought.
(25:15):
The human thought is it's helpful to go
take care of animals and help them feel
more comfortable in this life, help them
feel loved, help them find homes.
That's more of the human thought.
So you start to develop these bigger
picture and deathbed advice kinds of things
(25:37):
to get you through hard times.
You program yourself to catch yourself when
you're losing perspective, like, oh no,
here it comes.
Here are depressive feelings coming around.
I need to go into action.
That's a programming statement.
I need to make sure I do things that help
me feel better.
(25:58):
That's a programming statement.
I do things that help me feel better.
That's a programming statement, and for me
that was put there by a very good therapist
that I had many years ago.
Don't wait till it's worse.
You need to catch it early and also look at
the underlying belief that's driving it,
and once we do that, the depression can
(26:20):
begin to lift.
That's not an overnight thing.
That's not a boom in a snap Maybe for some
people, not for me.
Not that you don't hear about cases like
that, where an insight came to them and
suddenly, yes, they felt better, they
proceeded with their life.
Sometimes you hear about people just
leaving their jobs, like that was it.
(26:41):
They reached a breaking point and they say
I quit.
I found a huge sense of relief.
I hadn't planned anything, but I moved
across.
I moved across the country or the world and
everything changed for the better.
And now I'm here to share my experience.
They're making meaning of that experience.
That must be their own value of helping
other people know that there are
(27:03):
possibilities for change, that you're not
always stuck, that there's ways out,
because, remember, depression is a feeling
of stuckness, helplessness, so you come up
with things to combat that, to get out of
it.
All right, everyone.
I'm going to end here.
I will most likely do another one from this
(27:24):
book, again called A Path Through the
Jungle, by Professor Steve Peters,
wonderful book.
Highly recommend it, so much so that I'm
doing a podcast series on it.
With his permission, I'll probably do
another one, though, on managing stress.
So he has a great unit on recognizing the
(27:44):
stress stages, managing them and then
preventing them.
It's like that's awesome.
Can we prevent the stress stages?
Apparently?
We can Well, some of them at least.
If we don't manage the stress, then
sometimes we do go into more severe
depression or anxiety.
So it's important to manage it.
All right, I hope that this was helpful to
(28:05):
you.
It's one of my own values to help as many
people as I can while I'm here on this
planet.
I'll talk to you soon.
I hope you're healthy and safe Peace.
Hey everyone.
Dr Liz, here we are doing an episode on A
Path Through the Jungle by Dr Steve Peters.
This one is on depression.
I did one laying the groundwork what is
that versus human?
(00:23):
One on anxiety, one on panic attacks and
this one is on depression.
This is a hard one, I'll tell you, because
I find it very easy to be an anxiety
specialist.
I find it fun actually to help people
decrease anxiety, get rid of their panic
attacks.
(00:46):
Get rid of their panic attacks, face
phobias, fears that are coming up, you know,
when people stop driving places and then
they're able to drive again very satisfying.
Depression is harder for me because I
really can relate to the thoughts going on
that the world is awful and there's, it's
pointless and why do anything.
These are all depression thoughts.
(01:07):
They're also all messages from the chimp,
not the human, and it's like, yeah, I get
it, I've been there.
I used to struggle myself with cyclical
depression.
I would say so every couple of years I'd go
into a depressive episode.
I had severe postpartum depression with
(01:29):
both of my kids after they were born, so I
had been in therapy for years, which was
helpful, absolutely.
Talk therapy went and did what's called
core healing, hypnosis, with a mentor of
(01:50):
mine who really looked at the underlying
beliefs of what's causing this depression,
because we often have this default of
depression or anxiety.
Sometimes both that happens and gets
established when we're really young.
She did some really deep hypnosis work with
me to knock that depression belief that's
(02:12):
driving the depression out, and it was very
effective.
That was probably, that was 2018.
And it is 2025 that I'm recording this and
I have not had a depressive episode since
and that feels somewhat like a miracle to
(02:34):
me because we did go through the pandemic.
We have been through a major move to
Jacksonville.
Sometimes I find it creeping in and I will
move into action before it gets worse.
So I think that was part of that hypnotic
work.
I also trained in that technique myself and
(02:54):
I've helped many, many people with it.
So if you have been to talk therapy a long
time and you're like, why can't I get rid
of my depression, maybe hypnosis is for you,
whether it's with me or somebody else.
Anyway, let's see what Dr Peter says about
depression and how it's coming about.
(03:15):
According to Dr Peter's, depression occurs
when the chimp takes over.
Remember, the chimp is the one that sends
emotional messages to us, so emotional
messages like it's hopeless, you're
worthless, there's nothing you can do,
(03:36):
everything's just going to remain awful.
That would be a chimp depression message.
And then sometimes, often past experiences,
internal thoughts that we tell ourselves,
sometimes unresolved trauma, feed these
negative thought cycles that the chimp is
throwing at us.
Now, remember it's the human that comes in
(03:58):
and has to solve the problem.
The chimp can't do it.
And the human is that logical, rational
part of our brains.
It's informed by our computer, that storage
system for beliefs and habits, and helpful
autopilots, or unhelpful autopilots, those
gremlins and goblins that come in.
That's where subconscious beliefs come in
(04:19):
as well.
So these unhelpful thought processes, these
gremlins and goblins, come in and feed the
depression.
Instead of telling the chimp, hey, go, take
a hike, we've got the sandal they decide to
like go on the playground or, let's say,
swing from tree to tree with the chimp.
(04:40):
Then the chimp starts to dominate and take
over.
You're likely to get stuck unless we move
into human mode to find a solution, unless
we exercise the chimp as well, unless we
recognize like, hey, the chimp needs some
attention here and we need to go into
(05:00):
action to make sure the chimp doesn't take
over.
There's another episode I ran called
depression prevention plan that would be
going into action.
Like, oh, the chimp is coming up and saying
all kinds of bullshit.
Let's say right, and I've got to get a
handle on this, I've got to get those
helpful autopilots going.
(05:21):
And this is really hard.
I am not pretending it's easy.
It's very difficult to see.
Sometimes it takes a lot of energy to go
into action.
Often and depression is a lack of energy
you really do want to sleep more.
You're more tired, you're more fatigued.
(05:41):
Thinking about getting out and taking even
a brief walk or something like that feels
overwhelming often, depending on what level
that depression is at.
So not saying this is easy, but I am saying
it is helpful to get out of the depression
or to not let the depression get worse.
(06:02):
So what do we do?
Sometimes it's finding just a very small,
manageable action that you can take like,
okay, I'm, I'm just going to do this one
thing today, for example, I moved from
South Florida, where I had been living over
30 years, to North Florida in February of
(06:26):
this year, 2025.
And so my practice, which was
well-established down in South Florida, I
always had lots of referrals, often full.
My practice took a hit when I moved because
nobody knows me here.
The doctors don't know me here yet, the
other therapists that live here don't know
me yet.
(06:47):
And so this fear came up and with a tiny
bit of depression, I would say it's like,
oh my God, how am I going to support myself?
I did have savings Planning for the move.
I knew, okay, often when you move, your
practice goes down some.
So I've got to have enough to cover that
Feeling that I'm giving the example of is
(07:09):
actually fear and sometimes helplessness.
Fear will create anxiety, helplessness will
create depression.
Like there's nothing I can do about.
This is depression.
If I had worthlessness on top of that,
which I don't, it'd be worse.
Like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to
(07:30):
succeed would be some worthlessness in
there.
I don't have what it takes to build a new
practice.
That would be some worthlessness in there.
That's not the case for me, but that's an
example of depressive thoughts.
It's okay to talk these out, write them
(07:52):
down, express them in what Peter says, a
healthy, contained way.
He calls this like exercising the chimp,
like the chimps got to speak.
It's going to tell you what it needs to
tell you.
But then, once we do that, we move into
solutions.
So we don't stay with the chimp.
(08:12):
We don't let the chimp take over and just
continue to tell us these awful things.
Instead, we start to move to our truths of
life or helpful autopilots.
A helpful autopilot for me is I've built
several businesses in my life.
I've moved to new areas before I can do
(08:33):
this again.
I know how to reach out and build
connections with people.
Those are all helpful autopilots.
I know I'm a good therapist.
I've got to let other people know that I'm
a good therapist and have them directly
experience that.
Not that they're going to become clients if
they're a doctor and I'm getting referrals
from them, I mean sometimes, but more like,
oh, they get to meet me and just get my
(08:56):
vibe and see that I'm a professional and
those type of things.
But everyone has their own truths of life
that help them through.
There's a couple he gives in the book of
there are always good people around to lean
on.
I can always create my own sunshine.
(09:19):
That's a cute one, huh.
People are unlikely to change, but I can
change my approach towards them.
That's a really interesting one.
If your experience is that people stay the
same they don't change no matter what I do,
you still have control over your own self.
I can change how I approach them.
So I like that one Effort and results don't
(09:40):
always go hand in hand.
He says this might be useful if you always
try very hard, but things don't always work
out.
Again interesting A very American thought
is if you put in enough effort, you'll get
the result.
Sometimes it's the type of effort Sometimes
it takes stepping back and seeing am I
(10:03):
making the effort in the right place?
I've learned that through being a business
owner Some things end up being completely
irrelevant to building your business.
You don't know at the time.
You can only know afterwards.
You can look around at other businesses,
you can listen to business podcasts, you
can look at different ideas.
(10:25):
You can make business plans.
You can look at others' business plans, you
can read a lot of books, but at some point
you've got to take the step to get the
experience, to try the different things and
get the information back.
Another one he says is sometimes the bad
guys win.
Man, that one's hard for me.
(10:47):
He says this could be relevant if injustice
has happened to you and it's like yeah, man,
clearly sometimes the bad guys win.
Just because someone's successful does not
mean that they're a good person or doing
good things in the world or the reverse,
that you're a good person, that you're
(11:07):
going to win.
So if we use that to get out of depression
instead of be depressed, it's very
different.
We could easily use that and say, well,
sometimes the bad guys win, so there's no
point in trying Like that would be a
depressive thought that leads you down to
hang out with the chimp versus sometimes
(11:29):
the bad guys win.
Sometimes the bad guys win and that is a
fact of life.
But that doesn't mean that my efforts don't
make a difference in the world, that I
can't help other people and create meaning
and take steps to do that, take steps to
make myself feel better and win in my own
ways.
Those would be out of depression kind of
(11:50):
thoughts.
So you've got to be careful.
You can't just take it and lead it down the
negative path.
You really have to take them and say, okay,
let's say this one to help myself feel
better.
Another one he gives is there will always
be good times ahead.
(12:17):
Always be good times ahead.
Now you could again take this one and say,
okay, yeah, occasionally I get five minutes
of relief.
I watch a funny show, or I read a book that
I like, or I go out in nature and get some
relief.
I see a beautiful tree or some flowers.
You have to find what works for you.
I'm going to talk a little bit about
quilting here.
(12:38):
I hand quilt and so it'll often take me
nine months to a year to make a quilt and
there are sometimes years in between me
starting another quilt.
They're floating around in my head.
I see them all the time because I'm in
those social media circles.
I guess Like oh, that's a beautiful quilt,
(12:59):
oh, I'd love to do this.
Or a newsletter comes, or I buy quilting
magazines.
Be easy to get down on myself to say why
haven't you started a new quilt?
You're so lazy, you're not being productive.
Those are messages from my childhood.
I wasn't ever called lazy, but definitely
productivity was prioritized in my family,
(13:23):
and so when I feel like I'm not being
productive, sometimes the chimp comes up
and starts doing this little dance.
I have to say, well, I'm percolating.
When the time is right to start a new quilt,
I will Related to this there's always good
times ahead.
Be like well, if I really want to feel
(13:45):
better, I can start a quilt.
Like.
I know that that helps me feel better, even
though the effort seems very large at the
beginning, because I know it's a long-term
project.
But that's an example of you find something
that you really like to do.
You may not start it, but you can say, well,
I could probably do that in the future and
(14:08):
I know that will make me feel good.
There's always a beautiful flower to see.
I'm seeing all kinds of new flowers and
plants up here that they don't have in
South Florida.
It's too warm.
I saw a beautiful little wildflower called
the powder puff yesterday.
It's like it looks like a little purple
dandelion.
(14:28):
It's so pretty.
It was just outside the office of the
dentist that I was going to, so I stopped
and took a picture and sent it to my girls
and said look at this beautiful little
purple flowers.
They're so pretty.
So it's like, ok, there's always a
beautiful flower to see.
I can take myself to the art museum or I
(14:50):
can take myself just on a walk down the
street.
I can take myself on an excursion to help
me feel better, myself on an excursion to
help me feel better.
So you want to do these things so that
you're tapping into some of your own truths
of life, not buying into the chimp's
(15:13):
message.
Dr Peters calls it.
You got to box the chimp.
You can't let the chimp take over.
Let the feelings express, then move to your
truce, your helpful autopilots to combat
the depressive thoughts that the chimp is
throwing at you.
Now he doesn't say to make this like pie in
(15:33):
the sky.
We are addressing reality.
Addressing reality, and he calls these
building the stone of life, like a strong
inner foundation, and what that is is
addressing what life actually is like, not
what we wish it was like Like.
(15:56):
Sometimes life really does suck.
Sometimes things don't happen the way we
want them to, in very small ways and in
much larger ways.
Sometimes the checkout line at the grocery
store is much longer than we thought it was
going to be and now we're running late.
Or sometimes people get elected to office
that we don't appreciate and it didn't work
out like we wanted it to.
Sometimes people are not nice to us and we
(16:17):
want them to be.
Sometimes people are not nice to us and we
want them to be Our partner's not in a good
mood.
Sometimes we have to face these realities
and this is a constant state of flux for
most people.
Like even a partner, you're negotiating
things that you like and you don't like,
things that are annoying.
Author.
There's an older author.
(16:37):
I have no idea if he's published something
recent, but his name was Dr Harley.
Like the motorcycle Dr Harley, he had all
these books about couples and he had this
whole list of what he called love busters
like annoying things that your partner does
that certainly don't build love and can
(16:58):
certainly break down love if they're too
severe, and his advice was to negotiate
some of them.
Negotiate as many as you could Like hey, do
you mind not picking your nose while I'm
around?
It's annoying to me If that partner says,
yeah, that's cool, just do it.
You know, in private you're good to go.
(17:19):
If they say, no, I really like to pick my
nose all the time.
I don't care if you're around.
Then you got to say okay, let's, you know,
let's talk about this.
You understand that that makes me feel like
you're disgusting and then I'm less
attracted to you and then, if I'm less
attracted to you, we have sex less.
We have sex less than we lose some of our
(17:41):
connection and that might lead to divorce.
It's like people don't think about it that
way.
Let's just say a lot of people don't like
to think about divorce Probably not a great
thing to say to your partner, so let me.
Take that back.
I don't know how you want to put it to them.
Some people just don't take it down the
path, and so don't take it down the path.
And so once you take it down the path for
(18:02):
them, they're much more likely to change if
you really know the reason underneath.
There's some things people can't change,
and in coupleship that's part of acceptance.
There's all these wonderful things about my
partner and there are some not so wonderful
things.
They're not a perfect person, and so I have
to decide.
(18:24):
Am I going to let these things depress and
annoy me and create anxiety and that's
where the chimp, would you know, start
doing their dance and a little hoo-haas or
am I going to box that and say, yep, that's
one of the realities of life.
Our partners don't always do what we want
them to do.
As part of truths of life, people can
(18:45):
disappoint us.
Life is uncertain, feelings change all the
time.
And then he also talks about personal
values.
I talk about this a lot in my practice of
acting in a way that's consistent with our
own personal values, and these are
decisions we make.
Yes, our parents help instill values into
(19:07):
us, and then, as adults, we make the
decision about the values we want to live
by and act in accordance.
All of this, when we go through these types
of things and when we even talk out the
problem, get ideas, builds resilience,
which we also like to call grit now.
(19:28):
It gives us the ability to get through
difficult times.
So the feelings of depression is often a
message.
I believe that you do need to make some
adjustments.
They're not just to be ignored, just like
the anxiety message, like something needs
to be adjusted here.
(19:49):
We need to go into some kind of action.
The chimp needs to be taken care of in some
way.
When it's depression we don't just come up
with a helpful thought, we also do actions.
So in the morning you can check in with
yourself how am I feeling right now?
And then you can ask is this my chimp
(20:09):
speaking or my human?
If you notice an emotional trigger, you can
pause and ask is this my chimp reacting?
Do I need to vent my emotions, talk them
out, write them down, voice note, talk it
through and then can I now either reframe
(20:34):
it with a helpful thought, with one of my
core beliefs, with a helpful thought, with
one of my core beliefs, or can I set a core
value intention at that moment or for the
day that can sound like I'll practice
kindness to myself.
Today, I'll go out and do one thing outside
(20:55):
of the house.
Perhaps it's acknowledging.
This feeling won't last forever.
I've handled tough days before.
I've handled tough times before.
If you want to go more to the spiritual, it
may be there's reasons that I'm here in
this life.
It may be difficult, but I'm still here.
(21:18):
There's a reason for that.
It may be difficult, but I'm still here.
There's a reason for that For me.
I've had several bouts of suicidal thoughts
in my life, but I was unwilling to act on
it because I had children.
It's like nope, my children need me, they
need me to stick around.
Now, sometimes, when someone becomes
severely suicidal, they think that their
(21:39):
kids are better off, or their loved ones
are better off without them, like they
truly begin to believe that their very
presence is hurting their children or their
loved ones.
Depending on your own beliefs, you may
think that suicide is a legitimate out, or
you may believe okay, they need some help.
(22:02):
To put things more in perspective, to come
back to reality that their children or
loved ones very much need them and love
them.
Maybe that's not the case, though, you know.
And so they decide to check out.
You know, and so they decide to check out.
You can focus more on the small helpful
(22:23):
thoughts, like I got out of bed today.
I answered a message, I checked my email, I
read a page in a book, I took a brief walk,
I stepped outside and just let the sunshine
hit my skin.
So these are actions that you can take.
(22:44):
It's not just all thought work.
Particularly with depression, I think
action is really important.
Anxiety too.
Often when someone's in a really difficult
anxiety spiral, the advice is take one
small action to help solve your problem.
(23:09):
You could say the same thing with
depression Take one small action to help
solve your problem.
Like maybe you can't do 30 minutes of
exercise but you could do a five minute
workout and maybe you just half-ass it but
you get through it.
You say okay, I did five minutes, good
(23:31):
enough, that's good enough for today.
Now Peters has some interesting advice
about gaining perspective.
He says that you've got to program your
computer to recognize when you're losing
perspective, because once you've lost
(23:51):
perspective it's very difficult to get it
back without some outside help.
Let's say he says to program the computer
to see the bigger picture, make bigger
picture statements, like problems do
eventually get solved.
Solutions can be found.
We never know what is around the corner.
(24:14):
Everything we experience in life will
change with time.
Those are bigger picture kind of statements.
These run around as memes these days that
people pass to each other.
Another way is to think of deathbed advice.
People are on their deathbed and you know
(24:35):
they're always saying eat more ice cream,
spend more time with your family that type
of thing.
You find your own deathbed advice.
Focus on what really matters for me.
Service Volunteering always helps me feel
good.
If one place doesn't work out, I try a
different place.
(24:55):
Kittens, people it's all about kittens.
Man, kittens always make you feel really
good.
You know, I could combat that if I want.
The chimp could come up and say oh no,
kittens don't always make you feel better.
What about all the sick and hurt kittens in
the world, ones that don't have homes?
That's a chimp thought.
(25:15):
The human thought is it's helpful to go
take care of animals and help them feel
more comfortable in this life, help them
feel loved, help them find homes.
That's more of the human thought.
So you start to develop these bigger
picture and deathbed advice kinds of things
(25:37):
to get you through hard times.
You program yourself to catch yourself when
you're losing perspective, like, oh no,
here it comes.
Here are depressive feelings coming around.
I need to go into action.
That's a programming statement.
I need to make sure I do things that help
me feel better.
(25:58):
That's a programming statement.
I do things that help me feel better.
That's a programming statement, and for me
that was put there by a very good therapist
that I had many years ago.
Don't wait till it's worse.
You need to catch it early and also look at
the underlying belief that's driving it,
and once we do that, the depression can
(26:20):
begin to lift.
That's not an overnight thing.
That's not a boom in a snap Maybe for some
people, not for me.
Not that you don't hear about cases like
that, where an insight came to them and
suddenly, yes, they felt better, they
proceeded with their life.
Sometimes you hear about people just
leaving their jobs, like that was it.
(26:41):
They reached a breaking point and they say
I quit.
I found a huge sense of relief.
I hadn't planned anything, but I moved
across.
I moved across the country or the world and
everything changed for the better.
And now I'm here to share my experience.
They're making meaning of that experience.
That must be their own value of helping
other people know that there are
(27:03):
possibilities for change, that you're not
always stuck, that there's ways out,
because, remember, depression is a feeling
of stuckness, helplessness, so you come up
with things to combat that, to get out of
it.
All right, everyone.
I'm going to end here.
I will most likely do another one from this
(27:24):
book, again called A Path Through the
Jungle, by Professor Steve Peters,
wonderful book.
Highly recommend it, so much so that I'm
doing a podcast series on it.
With his permission, I'll probably do
another one, though, on managing stress.
So he has a great unit on recognizing the
(27:44):
stress stages, managing them and then
preventing them.
It's like that's awesome.
Can we prevent the stress stages?
Apparently?
We can Well, some of them at least.
If we don't manage the stress, then
sometimes we do go into more severe
depression or anxiety.
So it's important to manage it.
All right, I hope that this was helpful to
(28:05):
you.
It's one of my own values to help as many
people as I can while I'm here on this
planet.
I'll talk to you soon.
I hope you're healthy and safe Peace.
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