#384 - For King and Country on Why Joel Was Depressed After Grammy Loss with Hillary Scott + Getting Their Start as Kids Touring with their Famous Sister + Their Family Moving from Australia to Nashville with Nothing

For King and Country (@forkingandcountry) are made up of two Brothers Joel & Luke Smallbone. They stop by Bobby’s house fresh off their trip to the Grammys after earning a nomination with their friend, Hillary Scott of Lady A. Joel shares why he was depressed days after the trip. They share their amazing story of how their family moved from Australia with nothing to the United States and how they got by living in a house without furniture. They got their start touring with their famous sister Rebecca St. James and how they didn’t want anyone to know they were related when they became, For King and Country. They also share stories about their large family, what it’s like working as brothers, their new movie, and their perception as Christian artists.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Last night I had a bath and I listened to Bono.
Here's that book Surrender, which is a marvelous book. I
don't know, and just put the sound I speak from
the bath like comfort me, and it was great. But
no comforted me in the shower in the bath. Episode
number three eight four for King and Country. You know
somebody who messaged me and was like, what's up with

(00:24):
all the Christian artists? Man? And I'm like, I guess
I haven't brought anyone on simply because there are a
Christian arty. I haven't none that on purpose. It's just
sometimes you find music or people that are awesome. I
don't care what they're singing about, and so but I mean,
I guess we have had a few on recently for
King and Country. This one Chris Tomlin. Is that the

(00:46):
only two? I mean, there's been a lot of Christian people,
but not people just in that space. And maybe they're
just talking about those two. I don't know, But I
was like, if you got a little time to complain
about that, you've got too much time. We've also had
so many guests. We're just trying to find different people. Yes,
And it's like, who have we missed? That's awesome and
for King and Country. So what had happened was the

(01:07):
kind of root as to how I know them now,
is that Eddie was asking for tickets to go to
the show, and so Amy who knows them or you
knew them, still knows them. It was like I got
him and it was a very hard show to get into,
and then he's like, I can't go, never mind, and
so now he's gotta go. Hey, guys don't need the
tickets anymore. So it was a little awkward. But then
they came into the studio and they were I mean,

(01:28):
blow me away good, even just for like three people
or whatever they had in here, and so became friendly
with them. It was already a fan of their music
and how like contemporary and how big it sounded, and
you know, I think I talked about this in this
interview where they sell out these shows at these arenas,
but they were in the grandy red carpet and people
weren't paying an attention to them, and I was like,

(01:49):
as you have no idea, these guys are all bigger
than you. It doesn't matter. I mean, there are very
few pop stars that can sell it on arena like
freaking Country can and so they came in. I really
enjoyed this. I feel like we could have gone another
half hour definitely, Um, but I think it had to
work out. Can we schedule this stuff pretty tight? Yeah,
we do an hour, but every day we do an hour,

(02:10):
there's something right before and right after it, so maybe
we'll get them back in soon. It's Joel and Luke
at for King and Country, which if you're just looking
at it looks like Forking and Country. I see it
all the time. Yeah, a lot of followers. They got
a big tour coming up in the spring. What are
we waiting for? Tour starts marks nine, um, he goes
all the way until basically the first of June. For
King and Country dot com. They talk about a movie.

(02:34):
I'll let them do that. There's a CMPT Crossroads special
with Jimmy Allen coming up this year. And this is
their current single, love Me Like I Am with Jordan Sparks.
I mean that's so catchy. That's something they didn't hear. Yeah,
I still have. It's like in my head love Me
like a little pause. Yeah, that's a jam there from Sitney, Australia.

(02:56):
You'll hear all about their dad and their mom. And
they're sister who I didn't know until after I knew them,
But she was so big they didn't want to be
known as just known as her brothers, so they tried
to do it on their like with their own name
for a while, which I found was interesting. But here
we go. This is for King and Country, four time

(03:16):
Grammy Award winners. Yes, sucking everybody. The Grammy's not paying
attention to them. All right, here we go for King
and Country. Thank you, guys. To be sure to check
out Movie Mike's Movie podcast. It is the best podcast
from a guy named Mike that does movies, that works
for Nashville podcast I work that I've ever man number one.
Al Right, here you go, Episode three four. Gentlemen, good
to see you. Good to see you man from l
A to Vegas. And I wouldn't say this, but I

(03:39):
was just with you guys like I'm fried because this
is the time jump constantly, and I'm sure you guys
have to be too. Did you get I didn't stay
for the show. As soon as I was done working,
I flew right home. I had to get on the
air the next morning. Yeah, you didn't even get the
benefit of the payoff. I was going to ask how
the show I'm assuming you guys went, we did? How

(03:59):
what I mean Luke did leave early? Did leave early?
Why don't go on? So I like, just to the Grammy,
you know, the the Academy. I stayed. So let's we're
gonna approach this a couple of different ways. One we'll
approach it because a lot of folks that are hearing
this will be introduced you for the first time. You know.
I think we're both in a world of we have

(04:21):
built what we've built in our place and it feels great,
but everything is so fractured. We're reaching new people all
the time. It almost doesn't matter how big it get
it you just haven't. There's just so much out there. Um.
And so we'll approach it is people have never heard
of you. But we'll also approach it as we've kind
of known each other at this rate for a little
bit and we've just been a couple of a couple
of hours together sort of minute. Feels good to see

(04:44):
you guys, though, because I'm just not like that long
for you. It's like a warm wish to all of
you don't know us, but you know and love Bobby.
It was awesome to see him in that environment because yes,
he all the things, he owned it. He was Bobby,
he was himself. But there was this thing of like,
I'm amazed that you're here right now, Like I'm amazed

(05:07):
that you actually you you did that thing? Are you
saying that to me? Or I was saying that to
you know, I'm saying it to you. Oh got it? Yeah? Thanks.
I mean, it was good to see you guys, because
I don't do well in Hollywood and I have a
whole and I don't know, maybe you guys could speak
on this in a different way, but fame, how we
grew up is not fame now. Everything is very fractured.

(05:27):
You could be wildly popular in one certain section of
this entertainment world, crazily popular, and you could go somewhere
else and nobody knows who you are. Or you can
get all these crazy benefits, which I got all my
clothes for free, which is crazy to me, and when
I was poor, I got nothing for free. And so
then there's this guilt, but then there's this awesomeness and
you don't know which part like a drug. I just

(05:47):
it's weird for me because I had nothing ever happened
til later in my career, and now everything now everything's
like happening, and yet there's still all these failures that
you don't talk about, and so I constantly go through
a lot of these these struggles and wellness checks on myself.
And that is why we have podcasts. Everyone, Yeah, I know,
this is great. You know I'm being serious. This is

(06:09):
the only form left. I think that you can actually
digest some of this stuff. I agree, and you can
sit down in it, right and with you guys, I like,
look at your shows, meaning I'll see video or pictures
not even that you post, and it is They're massive.
It's massive, I mean, and people that have seen you
guys are passionate and they love you and you're selling out.
But again, I would imagine that in Los Angeles you

(06:32):
walk around there and people are like, who the crap
are you? We felt awesome. We felt awesome on Sunday
because we had Hilary Scott from Later. She helped us out.
Every time we're like the redheaded step child. Usually we
start walking down that red capital. Before we went on there,
we were talking about how long it is. It's the
longest one. It's a very very long ago, and usually

(06:53):
we walked down there and people like cool to the listeners,
this is what happens. So this is what So you
have a pulicist with you and they go out in
front of you and it's basically it's a free fraud.
Is this sort of tests the waters, like embarrassing for
me when I have to do that? Do you want
to talk to these people? He ever want to talk
to me? And and most of the time we've been

(07:14):
we've been a duo for a better part of a
decade now, about a decade, and most of the time
it's like so you see get rejected for a year
dies most times. But but I thought about you guys,
is that they are all of these Hollywood celebrities that
people know, but you guys are out selling them. They
just have no idea. That's what was crazy to me

(07:36):
because because we spent a few minutes together and you
won't say this, you don't have to say this, and
but it's my whole like theory on fame and fractured
fame and success and for me trying to just find
my own a film and what I enjoy and I
have to do that now. I can't compare to what
it used to be. You can't compare it to what
I thought it we used to be, what my goals
used to be ten years ago. But I would see
you guys, and I would go, man, if people had

(07:58):
any idea how successful, popular, and how many tickets these
guys so like they would be going crazy to know
that you were just walking down that carpet. But that
was my thought when I saw you guys. Man, you yeah,
you were a friendly, friendly face like l A. I
don't like it. No, I think what you're saying, like, yeah,
I think what you're saying is well spot on. Um

(08:19):
l A is about putting on the way that you
want to be perceived, right, and so everybody there is
posturing at some level. O the people watching. When I'll
tell you this story, So we were walking down. We
were walking down, my wife and I, Courtney. We were
walking down to our seats, and it was a mad
house because everybody shows up late. So obviously the show
started at five, and it's very tense, and so you've

(08:42):
got traffic issues. So we're like five fifteen and the
show has already been going and there's like hundreds of
people trying to go down this one aisle. I'm like,
why are we sitting here? This is insane. I had
to wait in the car off a by the way
seven Central, just that people know that it's back two hours.
So we're waiting for it. And there was like this
pressure behind us that I'm like, guys, I mean, we
can't go any further and shore enough. There was a

(09:04):
security on his radio going I've got Megan Fox here
and machine gun killing and I've got to get them
down there. But I can't get them down there, and
she's having a panic attack while we're here. This is
the megans that. This is the level of intensity and
what you realize, Man, my heart broke for a lot
of people in l A. That's what I felt me too.

(09:25):
And I never thought I would feel that way until
I got close to it. I always felt jealous of
it until I would see it and go, I don't
know that that's real. I don't know that if I
was around that all the time, because it's a constant competition, right,
I think it would kill us, man, I think so.
I think you and I tore him from the same cloth. Well,
I we sat right on the edge. So in the

(09:48):
Crypto dot Com arena now, which but um, you know,
the suit of the main acts and so on. We're
in the middle at these table walls, and then we
were just just on the side about five or six
rows back, so we had like this perfect bird's eye
view that was amazing, and there it's a it's a

(10:10):
fish bowl. Man. People don't want to get in the
fish bowl. And you guys maybe are more mature than
I am, But don't you get a little resentful that
you're not in the seats with I said, you've had,
I said to my sister, I just like it's just
you just feel you feel like an outsider. But then
at some point you realize that that's actually a fish
bowl that they're in, Like there's literally in the arena.
You've got all these people pictures and that's going on

(10:33):
right now, right What happened? What happened with just like
so bored? I mean, it was like the greatest performances ever,
you know what. I could see it from the side,
like the hip hop performance. Everyone was losing their mind
and you had been precariously right in the middle. Just like,
poor fella, I don't know what to do, Like what
do I do with my hands kind of type thing,

(10:53):
except of this whole body. Congratulations on all the success
and you want to go or how many? Then you
can't be If you've won four Grammys, you're like Beyonce,
then you can't be always to get more man Hollywood
for three days too long. I love this fractioned fame.
I mean, you go to TikTok and there's somebody. I'll

(11:16):
give you an example. There's a guy as a kid um,
his name is Brew and he got popular on TikTok.
He just did ready in Detroit. But I like him
a lot, young kid, but he just found a funny
thing to do and he got TikTok famous, and he
has millions followers. And I was talking to him for
a while and some of the guys in the industry
were kind of hate on him because because they couldn't
figure how to do what he did, and I was like, dude,

(11:37):
screw them. You figured out somebody something that nobody else could.
And they're upset about it. But a lot of people
know who he is. But he's very TikTok famous. But
if you went to Walmart and Chesapeake, Virginia, he's probably
not gonna get stopped. If he's in l A. He
may get If I walk in in Nashville having dinner,
people record me eating. If I go to Los Angeles,

(12:00):
nobody gives a crap at all. Right, So it's so
fractured where I go and when night. But that's I
like that because for the most part, people don't. I
think that's where we land. Ultimately, I'm with you on
the like you can get stuck. If I was in
l A. I think I'd be sort of a jittery
mess and like sort of I would drink the kool
aid if I could show a moment of self awareness,
I agree would I would have drank the kool aid.

(12:22):
But and it probably would have killed us both. We'd
meet each other, you know, buying drugs off the street,
you know, but from each other. Confused. But Nashville has
been great for us because we often say, like if
New York's the business and l A is the entertainment,
like Nashville is the heartbeat of the arts. So Nashville

(12:43):
has been amazing. And family doing it with family. I'm
so proud. I was so excited he you married, because
that's been the other part of it. It's like just
the grounding of marriage in this whole, Like you're just
trying to figure out right side up from upside down
in this thing. And we actually love now. Luke is
like six ft, so he's a bit inconspicuous, homeschooled. I

(13:05):
know that doesn't make sense. All six ft, that's so cool.
If he slouches is four but that's so cool. Um.
But but so he's a bit hard too. But I
put a bull cap on and yeah, it's not listen.
Away from all that, I was proud to see you
guys there and I just thought if everybody else knew
how actually one awesome and successful you were, they just

(13:25):
had no idea. It was just like you were just
like this unicorn walking around and there with such success
and they had no idea. And I was like, you guys,
thank you guys. Something going on. Look at these dudes.
It's great. By the way, you look great. Your suit
was awesome. Here's a pretty good but it's awesome. Like
I was like, I remember just going be like, dude,
what are you wearing? Not for like TV? I don't
like doing red carpets. I didn't try to apply to
do that job. They came to me and said we

(13:46):
need somebody to do this that knows a little bit
about all formats. So if it was like grand Master
flashes there, I could talk to him, Bonnie Ray. So
that's why I was there, and I just but I
don't know anything about fashion. And I'd be like, you're
pretty like that's not what you say. I'd be like, well, okay,
do you And then I was like, what's what you
got there? What's that? City's like? I don't know, man,

(14:07):
And so there it was, but congratulations on all of that.
I digress from that. Um, let's go back to the
very beginning. Your accents are obviously from Texas or something,
definitely Boston, Boston, from Australia. What part born in Sydney,
lived in Brisbane? What's the difference? They're different cities, Bobby, uh,

(14:31):
Sydney is about a thousand kilometers south of Brisbane, so
they're not even close. Okay, So I've been to Sydney,
h wonderful place, right, loved it. Ye, it's amazing place.
Haven't been to Brisbane. But I say, what's the difference
in culturally? Because you can say that about America right
in Boston and Austin. I mean Sydney's Sydney's New York

(14:53):
and Nashville is Brisbane. Yeah, probably Little Brisbane have a
culture like a music. I wouldn't to Melbourne. I wouldn't
say it does Melbourne. Brisbane is interesting because it's um
it's kind of locked behind an island that makes all
the beaches not so cool. So, uh, it's a little
bit more business iron it. It's a it's a younger

(15:14):
city compared to you know, Melbourne is a huge city. Uh,
Sydney is a huge city. Sydney is a huge city.
So you were born in Sydney in a little town,
a suburb of Sydney called WARUNGA true story, true story.
So you're born near Sydney and you end up leaving
to go to Brisbane for years. Why Brisbane though was

(15:38):
at school? Was your parents? We had family up there.
My dad was a concert promoter in Australia and he
lost a lot of money on a tour, a single tour,
and namy grant to and um, so he went up
to We had we had family up in Brisbane and
it was kind of like, hey, well we had to
sell a house and I had to do that whole thing,
and so we went up to Risban as kind of

(16:01):
a holding pattern to kind of see what was next.
And then parents made a decision to move to Nashville, Tennessee,
and we went along. There was six of us at
the time, six kids. So when he makes that decision
or they made that decision, you know, the unit was Nashville.
The was it because of the industry and the opportunity
to have a shot at what his skill set already was.

(16:23):
He was forty six kids. One on the way, Well,
my mom was pregnant with our those sister Libby and
literally Bobby packed sixteen suitcases, moved halfway around the world plane,
train and automobile literally like flew in, got into l A,
got on a train from l A to like Memphis,
and actually ran over a bloke on the train. Wait

(16:44):
all of you together a train? No, no, we all
went together. How old do you remember this? Yeah, you do,
your distinct memory, Okay, keep going. And then got to
Memphis and got in a taxi from Memphis to Nashville
to Union Station, like three miles from here. Um. We
stayed there for two weeks. Two months later Dad lost

(17:04):
his job. He had a job here though that he
had advanced, he was going to be a manager, got fired,
sleeping on beds, man out of clothes, no car, nowhere
to get home. Where where are you sleeping on these
beds in Brentwood Lipscombe Drive. So it was like a
rental like you guys, Yeah, we showed up and uh,

(17:25):
obviously you know, there's no furniture and so we lived
in a furniture house for what how it was months?
It was and we had the best time in the world.
I was gonna ask if that feels like a loving time,
like if if it feels like as kids. Yeah, that's
what's actually funny about. You know, I got my wife
and I we got four kiddos ourselves. And it's interesting
what kids pick up on because obviously this had to

(17:46):
have been and was a tense time for my parents,
but for us, we're playing cricket inside. You know, I've
never never allowed to do that. You know you have
You were able to um make special memories because you
felt loved and you knew you were loved. You don't
care if you had to counch or not. You don't
care if you had a bed or not. I mean,
I just distinctly remember the sheet trying to put the

(18:06):
sheet around making my bed, putting the sheet around clothes,
and you're trying to get the clothes to kind of
hang to to give you a corner of your bed.
And I remember my mom coming in and helping me
make that bed, and I never thought anything of it.
It was just this kind of Yeah, great leaves, mode lawns,
cleaned houses. So all of the money went back into

(18:27):
the family. So there's your mom and your dad, there's
you two. Who's older of you two? Who do you think? Yeah,
he's looking deep into the grown taller and maybe it
would take more time to do that. However, really thinking
about this, but it would be older though. You have
to at least take a guess. It's it's okay. You
have a fifty percent chance of being right. I know,

(18:49):
but I probably probably Joel, are you older? I am
one never gets people do the same thing. Is he's
not a it's a it's a leader thing. Sometimes you
grab the role of I am gonna I'm just the
big It's actually funny speaking of that. I think that's
actually helped us in music. Is because I'm the only

(19:11):
I've said this to Joe fias As that I will
knowingly give you the answer to the first question the
first moment in the room every time, because I'm his
younger brother. So that's how it always was. It's always
been that way. Um okay, but where do you guys
ranking the all the siblings. I'm the deprived middle chow.
It explains a lot. And are you the youngest of all?

(19:31):
I'm the third youngest. I got a little brother and
a little sister. Wow. Okay, So in this house there
is you too, your two parents, there's two other six
the six other kids five other kids, so seven total,
five boys, two goes, two parents, your mind across the world.
You get just flew all the wy across the world together.
So he gets here and loses his job. So then

(19:54):
what I don't know then what we were like literally
ranking leaves. We found some lawn equipment of the house.
We were waking leaves one day and someone came by
and said, hey, would you help without because we moved
in the fall or the autumn as we'd call it,
And so we started doing jobs for folks. Um. Not
long afterwards was Thanksgiving and and and so we've been

(20:17):
going to a local church and they'd sort of we
really stuck out like a sore thumb, you know, because
you because accents. There's there's seven kids, all under the
age of fourteen. You know, we weren't dressed and we
were going to a Baptist church. So everyone in that
that era, like the Baptist church was you know, the
suits and the holding, and we just we had no clothes.

(20:37):
So we just sort of rag tag, like two parents
and seven little ducklings into the church. And the church
really was kind of school class in the church really
rallied around us and and um gave us away and
we prayed for everything. We prayed for food, We prayed
for our bills to be covered. Was that a big
because for me it was if it wasn't from my

(20:59):
youth director in church, and it wasn't for different different
seasons of my life in church. But we've been had
food Christmas presence, you know, and so and I don't
want to asking that question by going that's my story
and so your story please share it too. But I
mean I remember once the only gift I got was
one of those colors By paint sets and it was
from their and the church brought me wanted. I'm just
happy to have a gift. It was like, so the

(21:21):
first Christmas we were here because we we loved Santa
growing up. I mean we were home school as well,
so I probably believed in Santa for about five years
too many. He was. But and I remember mom coming
because in Australia block your children's yea, we can do
that where where? She said, you know, because in Australia

(21:45):
with the big thing about Santa and Sander was awesome
in Australia. And we came over here. I was like, hey, guys,
Santa's only to bring you things from the dollar shop
this year. And I was like, what are you talking about, Like,
Sander is not impacted by our financial situation. He's coming
and she was like, well, he might not know where
we live. We're like, how did she? Of course he knows.

(22:06):
It's sad like and and underknown to us. At first
grade school, class found out the week weren't be able
to give each other gifts and they sponsored our Christmas
with Santa, and we had more gifts that year. It
was just such an iron ironic moment. Didn't barely anything
in our house. We're the most gifts we've ever gone,
and just more gifts than ever. Did you guys feel shame? Man,

(22:33):
I don't know if I you know what, that's probably
a better question for my parents, because I'm sure they did.
I'm sure my dad did. Actually it's still I think
a wound him. He did um for us, man, my
parents did a pretty good job of like teaching us like, man,
it doesn't really matter whatever what everybody else thinks. And
we were odd because obviously were you know, my accent
has been very compromised now, but very Australian. We were.

(22:55):
There was a bunch of us, we were young, and
so you had all these the granny's coming up. Oh
they're so cute, know you know, So you know, we
were used to um sticking out and but I don't
think I ever felt any shame. And part of it
was it's funny because we still work together with family,
real real close, and I think that if we hadn't
have moved, our family friendships would be much more, to

(23:17):
use a word that we've used before, fractured. Right. But
because you come to a new place, you speak, you know,
even though a culturally, even though culturally Australia and America
are fairly similar, it's still totally different. If that makes sense.
And so you're experiencing things that make you feel a
little unsafe. So who do you turn to? Your turn
to your older brother, you turn to your younger brother,
You're talking to your You're leaning on your older siblings.

(23:39):
And I think because of that, family has become such
a strong muculus for us that otherwise I don't think
makes a lot of sense in the Western world. But
for us that's all we had. And so what happened
was is you grew up with it, and so now yeah,
we still work really really close to the end of
the story is our sisters started traveling and and the older, yes,

(24:00):
oldest and managed her and so is that kind of
his path? Then did he did he go? And did
you know she had talent? Yeah, she was in like
the rock band at school in Australia. She'd done some
demos and things in Australia, and so there was she'd
opened for Carmen. Your sister is Rebecca St. James, and

(24:21):
so in Australia she kind of already had I mean,
she made she was six, she was fifteen, sixteen, fourteen
when we came, Yeah, fifteen, I think when she signed sixteen,
when she released her first album that he took around
to every label, no one want to have anything to
do with her, and took her to Forefront Records with
Editor Gamo and Dan Brock greg Ham, and they said

(24:41):
we'll sign her because ironically they thought she could be
the next Gammigrant, which Amy Grant was the reason Waby
the hearing the first place, because he lost all the
money on the Immigrant to her. So it was sort
of this bizarre full circle moment. And then we all
traveled together. So we jumped in like a Ford fifteen
passenger van. So you went with your dad and sister
kind of tis almost his dad needed cheap labor. He

(25:03):
looked around and sorry had five sons, and we all
came the round our first our first jobs were I
was a spotlight operator. I think at nine crazy stories
child could be a broken I mean, Joel was a
stage manager, like you know, twelve thirteen. I became a
lighting director at like fourteen fifteen. I mean, just crazy things.
I mean I remember going up to these festivals and

(25:23):
it was good that I was speaking of being tall.
I would go up to these festivals and I have
these union guys, and you guys are tough cookies, right,
And they would look at me and they thought, maybe
he's sixteen, you know, maybe it's legal, you know, because
he's not tall. And I was like this young guy
and she would be performing in front of thousands of
people as a Grammy Award winner and I was the
lighting guy. I mean, none of it made sense, but

(25:43):
you know, here we were. Did she have an I
don't know if unfair is the word. Did she have
a pressure on her there was a fifteen six year
old because now here she is, she's what do you
think as a kid, and it's all on her now.
I don't know, I've never met your sister before, but
I just think about that. I mean, she is now

(26:04):
the son in that she's she's I just wonder what
she what she felt like then if she was able
to be a kid at all, or I wouldn't say
not much, you know. And now Beck was always mature,
well beyond her years. She was always a third mom.
But you I mean, maybe it's just maybe as for me,

(26:26):
as I'm getting older and and I've got young kids,
you start to realize that there's pros and cons to
absolutely everything in life. And she was always supermature. But
if you if you kind of skip a few steps
in life, there's gonna be some ramifications to that, right,
And Beck's note amazing, But I think that she would
come on, if she was ever to come here, she'd
probably say, yeah, there was a difficult There was some

(26:47):
difficult days because you don't get to live out childhood
in some cases, you don't get to make some some
mistakes without even a teenagehood and young adulthood. All that
just it all rests on her, or did for a
while a long time. So you guys are traveling around
and then is everybody doing music in your family at

(27:10):
some point? Though in some way obviously you're working making
sure that the bit, But does everybody know something kind
of yeah? So so like not like our youngest brothers,
our general manager kid? Though, does does your mom and
dad say everybody have to learn how to play at
We were not down? We were not all in down

(27:32):
with musical really, Okay, don't get Josh in here's to sing,
it'll be upset. But could he play if he needed none? Okay?
So he's the business guy? Was that always this thing?
Even as a kid? Kid, what's been cool? Is like mom,
really felt a promise when because she was terrified Mom, Mom,

(27:53):
who's a hero. She had just had three brothers, all
in the education system in Australia. They were all like
principles of that. She pulled her kids out of school
and then home schools all of them, which and you're
also talking around you know, years ago is cooling. I
mean it's still maybe not cool. But everyone homeschooled during COVID,
so it became much more publicly accessible, you know. But

(28:15):
but so she takes not only out of school, takes
them on the road and she's terrified, like they're not
getting a proper education. She really sensed to God say,
don't worry teaching what they need to know. And what's crazy.
As you fast forward you go down the list, we're
all still working in the roles that we learned. Like so,
our brother is an awfully successful lighting designer and director.

(28:36):
He just you know, does like the chick fil a
Summits and all the rest of our brother. Ben's a filmmaker.
We're in the band together, you know. Josh is a
general manager. Livy's an artist. Our younger sister in the Questry,
and our older sister Rebecca, so that we're all still
doing the same thing. It sounds to me like your
mom's kind of the unsung because as we talk about
everybody's stories here, your dad and and but it sounds

(28:57):
like your mom was just such a fundamental at times
unheralded like pillar, I love what you're gonna say, You're
gonna say on the sun Hero, I was, I don't
know where ye are your parents? Are they still alive?
By the way, mom and dad? Okay, your mom sounds strong. Yeah,
I mean that that's regardless that she just sounds strong.

(29:19):
Here's the thing. You know, it's interesting because and I
would say this with my dad in the room. My
dad was the he's the full runner, you know, he's
the he's the entrepreneur, he's he's he's you know, a
big personality. But um, he's nothing without my mom. And
I think for us, you know, even someone asked me
the other day a little bit like, hey, how was
it raising being raised in your family? And I said,

(29:41):
you know what, it's interesting. No parents are ever perfect.
We all know that. Everybody knows that. But my mom
handled the big moments perfectly. There was never a big
moment for me where it was like because I got
I told my a c L in high school and
I had, you know, some issue even being doing the
job out on the road. I struggled with a little bit,
you know times and Mom was Mom handled those moments,

(30:02):
those ones what you come and you're like, I've got
a little bit of a crisis going here, Those conversations,
the moments that transpired after that, she nailed it. It It
was like she knew the right things to say when
I needed the right things to to to to hear them,
to absorb them, to grow from them. She told them
to me. It's just as we were telling these stories,
I just felt hints of your mom at all times.

(30:25):
That work pillar. That's that again. I don't know her.
It could be wrong, but I felt like that that
was the case. And when you talk about her being
her family, being in the school system and she's like,
I feel like this is the right thing to do.
It didn't sound like the most popular thing that she
could have done, the most conventional thing that she could
have done. She heard her mom calling Nana just like

(30:46):
and then please, why didn't she come home? This is awful?
What is your husband? What are you doing this to
your children? You know? That love stuff. Yeah, yeah, you
know it's crazy, Bubby, here's a pair of them. It's uh,
we truly just came from this is a true story.
We just we've been working for about two two and

(31:07):
a half years on telling our mom and dad's migration
story the literally what from mom's perspective because she is
sort of our unsung hero? And what do you mean,
been telling it, working time telling it. We've been working
a film. So when we're going on an independent, six
million dollar feature film and we just literally hopped in

(31:29):
the car and came from watching the first thirty minutes
of it. So, well, isn't that kind of wild how
we got there? Because we didn't I have all these notes,
I mean looked at a single note on you guys,
because we just started talking and we were here. We
haven't really talked, haven't really even announced the film that
much yet because it doesn't come out till later in
the year. Well, what an organic way to even bring

(31:50):
it up. They don't even announce it now, Well, what's
funny is you were actually you were using the word
unsung hero. That's what you want to That is literally
I was about to say that, and I thought I'm
not going to say it doesn't matter, but I did
almost syndsung hero that Yeah, it's funny. Well look, that's awesome.
I can't wait to hear more about it when you
guys are ready to talk about it. Just back to

(32:15):
the Los Angeles. When did you guys get back? I
got back yesterday evening o'clock last night. And you're like,
you're good, you have energy, not tired. I mean, what
do you do when you done? We've done worse, if
that makes sense. You know, there's a little bit of weariness.
I get slightly depressed. I got a bit depressed from well,
it was a bigger week for me because we flew
out We did this Chick fil A Summer in San

(32:36):
Diego the beginning of the week, and then I went
into a bunch of like and had some great meetings
and whatnot about the film and just different um entities
and people, and and then went straight out of that
into the the Grammy thing and then straight at that
to home. And my wife's been away three weeks two
she's in Spain working on a project, and so I

(32:57):
just don't feel speaking grounding. I just I just got
home last night and I was like, I just need
to check in with myself for a moment. There's something
too about like Hillary Scott, who you love. We love
like she's just a joy, I guess, a human being.
Yeah obviously lady, yes, but like Hillary, she's an incredible
vocal because she's an even better person. And I felt

(33:20):
we just I just feel little bit of sadness, like
she featured on this song with us and flown her
out there and I had this moment and it was
still beautiful, but I just had this You sort of
feel like a bit of a parent and I feel
like you owed it to her to win. Is that
what you're saying. I think you subconsciously are saying that
maybe yeah, yeah, because it's just you know, don't believed

(33:41):
in us absolutely. But let me just flip it around
a little bit. I'll just be Hillary for a second.
I feel like I owed it to you guys that
I can see her putting the same pressure on herself
and yeah, and I would if I mean if it
were me and you were like, do this song and
I'm like, haly, I come on and we don't win.
I hope you don't put that burden on you because

(34:02):
I think in the same way. She's probably doing that
to herself in the same way, and it is not fair.
I can tell you one thing about the Grammys and
you're on the board and you don't have you don't
need to comment on this. It's just run a different
way because I know that I vote, and sometimes even
with all the votes from my perspective, from what I
have learned, not you guys. There are people that can
sit in a room and go, you know what, I

(34:23):
don't know if that we're gonna go with, we're gonna
as a board just pick this one instead. And that
was an issue for a while and they got some.
So you shouldn't feel that way. And I'm I'm absolutely
bananas when it comes. I am in my head all
the time, anxious about stuff constantly. And I'll tell you,
I think there's a lot of us that ways that
we're similar. She's probably going to day I feel like

(34:45):
I let them down. No, I think, And it's it's funny.
It's a good life moment to just going. I mean, look,
I wasn't contemplating passing to the next life or anything,
but I just got home last night and again it
was empty home. It was like six days away and
I've been like, I've been going that hole came home.
I've been going pretty hard that whole time, and I

(35:06):
was like, oh, it's a bit sad. I literally had
this lonely advice sat out on the balcony last night,
just looking out in the distance, like on my own
do you do that? When I would do that would
be after a show. Now I didn't have a wife
for a family, and I would go out and do
stand up and have a really good show couple. I
think that's probably that was the proverbial end of show

(35:26):
for me. And now I go I go back to
a hotel and be just loneliest crap. I get all
this love out on stage, and I'll go back and
just be sad, because what do you do? You turn
on the fresh prints on the on the TV and
sit there alone and wait for the next show. Last
night I had a bath and I listened to Bono.
Here's that book Surrender, which is a marvelous book. By
the way, I just put the Sono speaker on the bar,

(35:48):
like comfort me, and it was great. Bono comforted me
in the shower. In the bath, I was fully closed
and sometimes no you weren't, but I get that feeling
of like rush, but your wife's also gone, so that's
not helping things. But also you're not mere for a grammy.
It's like I have to check myself sometimes too, And

(36:10):
I'm like, but but that's the shame. That's the shame part,
because then you go from like oh, gie, and then
and then you swing back to this, like you like
the life. I said to Rebecca our system and we're
out there, it's like the life that we're like that
we've been. We went from like literally seeing beds man
out of clothes and I was like, back, isn't this
amazing that we're literally in l a together, going to

(36:31):
like looking at this celebrating music, biggest night together and
we've devoted out lives to music. So it's like yeah,
and so then shame creeps in. It's it's just a
weird it's a weird cycles. And if we weren't crazy creative,
I'll just use the alliteration there, we wouldn't be in
this business anyway. But it just goes hand in hand
with how we have to judge and juggle our emotions

(36:52):
as a creative, Like that's gonna happen or I mean
we got into this being like this, So why would
we not be like this once we're in it? And
so I st you guys are a therapy at all?
Have I do? Let me know, you'll let me know.
You're bloke or Sheila not now they call you guys
called Sheila's Is that? Is that a woman in Australia,
You guys do z or z z. That's weirder than

(37:16):
all of every That's the weirdest thing conversation, you know,
the weirdest thing. You guys in America say h it's
h h. You say Henry, you know, I say for Henry, Yeah, yeah,
I'm I can't justify the English language for many, many
many reasons, the American version of it, because it's if
I had to not learn a language, would be the

(37:37):
American version of English because we got it everywhere all
the time. You're just you're just doing the most. America
is just doing the most all the time. Your rs
how like Car? It's so hard to say, Car, hey man,
how are you today? It's great to be here on
the Bobby Bones show like that. My mouth is tired.

(37:57):
Do you have different accents in Australia? Are you kidding?
What do you mean, like you know, like, oh, you're
a good eye. Might how you going. I just figured
it was more Australia. I didn't know it's a different
accent in Australia. Just figured that was like deep more
in the middle or something. I mean, if you're in
Australia and you hear a Boston accent, no, you can
hear it when you hear the American difference. All I

(38:17):
hears the thicker Australian accent. I don't hear different Adelaide, Adelaide,
you know, Perth, Adelaide, Sydney all different in in the
the outback of Australia. Those guys, man, it's a whole
lot of language. Yeah I have, yeah, you know though
some of those guys in there they get real yeah.

(38:38):
But I just thought it was more Australian. Honestly, I
wouldn't be able to tell that. I mean, I was like, well,
they're really AUSTRALI you call them bogans, so you have
sort of I suppose you call them rednecks. Here, we
have bogans, like the bush is what I would learn,
Like that's like the kind And this was the rabbit
trail of all rabbit Trails podcast. Like you said, you
can do what, you can do this, you can do this,

(38:59):
you are your sister? Is her success? When when do
you think it hit Not that she's not still at peak,
but when did it first hit the peak for her?
And where were you guys then when that was happening
for her? Were you still working with her? Did you
have aspirations to do that? Were you doing music around her? Yeah?

(39:21):
So we grew up so we were Rhodes and then
Joel started doing background vocals for Rebecca. There was some
good footage of that, and you should find somewhere. Trouble
is when you make it when you when you have
kids who do not have the grounding of school, and
then they travel and then you put them in front
of thousands of people. It's just a recipe for like
a home school of fourteen year old kids to think

(39:42):
he's awesome and have no right. So it's just critous
still getting to travel and do some of the things
that different education. We are you jealous of her success
as a kid, don't? I don't think that we ever really.
I mean, for me, you know, I grew up with
melodies in my head. I've always grown up with thoughts

(40:03):
in my head, you know, um that could become songs.
But I actually never thought that I would do music
until probably when I was eighteen nineteen. Really so all
the time on the road working in music, Yeah, so
close to it, yeah, I think so. I just thought
that I was going to be there help her along.
I always felt like I worked for my sister, and
it was kind of a nice thing, you know, and

(40:24):
it was like there was no ego attached to it
and it and it wasn't until you know, kind of
Joel came along and I was like, hey man, what
do you think about writing some songs and singing on
some demos that we got to a point of kind
of considering it, and I said yes in some cases
because A I didn't have anything else going. But two,
I think that I knew that there was something. I heard,
these things, you know, I heard, you know, I used

(40:46):
to listen to music and go, why did they do
that with that melody? They should have changed it to this.
So when you're around music most of your life, I
mean you joked about it being traveling with our education.
Music was our education. That is a thousand but percent true.
And I didn't grow up I grew up playing a
little bit of drumas but I didn't grow up writing,
you know, working on chords or working on songwriting until

(41:07):
I was about nineteen. Okay, so you did you grat
do you graduate? Yeah? Quote unquote, we graduated school. So
you have your high school diploma? You both do? Ye?
Did you finish like a year before? Is it like
standard school? Here's a funny story for you when I
when I got my diploma sent to me in the mail.

(41:28):
Um My mom my mom was like, look, here's your
high school diploma. And I was like, oh, that's good.
And she looked at me and said, you're the only
one in the entire family that has graduated high school
on time. Everybody else I don't know, a year too late, Ben,
a year or too late. Yeah, there's a lot of josh,
there's a great area with school. I think mom was like,

(41:51):
all right, luck, you're dumb, here's your diploma. So did
you um? Do you played basketball? Though? Right? He he's modest,
but he was actually a bowler. And I know, I
know this is true. And you mentioned the a c
L injury which was held you back or stopped you.
But how did you play ball? If so, here's all right,

(42:13):
you know, if we want to go there, we can't.
It's a podcast. We can do this. So I started.
I didn't start playing basketballuntil my um freshman year of
high school. It was the first time I've ever played
basketball in the league. And I did well, Like I
got player of the Year that year. I was pretty
talk were you athletic? So I grew up playing sports,
But because we were traveling all the time, I didn't
get to play in the league's and all this add

(42:34):
of thing. So anyway, I my sophomore year, I just
tried to balance traveling with my sister and playing basketball.
And because of that, I'd missed practices obviously, and so
the coaches are like, we can't stop you if you're
literally here, like two thirds of the time, your either
here or you're not. So I started coming off the
bench and I didn't have a great year. You know,
you start to realize, like sports, you have to really

(42:55):
dedicate your life to it. So anyway, I finished that year.
Don't have as good of a year. Uh, And um,
I kind of went to mom and dad. I was like, yeah,
I just wanted the last two years of high school.
I want to give everything to to basketball and just
see what happens. And so I go through that, I
get I get prepared for my junior year um playing sports.
And the very first game my junior year of high school,

(43:16):
I told my a cl and so in some cases
when it comes to sports, freak tear or fall like
hard fall, just a freak tear, just cut on boom
and uh, I'll never forget. They called the time out.
I came out and the coach looked at me. It's like,
so you're good now, right, And I was like yeah,
because I didn't know what was going on. And I
get back in and this guy just came driving down
the lane. I went to defend him and my leg

(43:37):
just went and I was like, I'm done, but it
just gum, this is this jellow feeling is a terrible feeling.
Got on the bench and he's like, he said, what's
going on? I said I, And I looked at him
and I was like, I think I'm really hurt, and
he gave me the weird I'll just never forget that
look in his eyes. His eyes were huge, and he
walked back and he kept coaching the rest of the game.
I called my mom and I said, hey, mama, and

(43:59):
that was when hit me. What I call mom? So
do you repair it? And does it? Yeah? So you yeah,
you have surgery a year later. When I went and
played a year later, but I knew it was like, man,
it's literally, I mean, it's what you realize with these
professional athletes. It's it's amazing when they come back and
really contribute a year later. Like if there there are

(44:20):
those stories out there because it's a very it's kind
of like relearning how to do everything. I mean even
I went through all the practices, never thought of my knee,
and in the first game I played my senior year,
all of a sudden, I was super aware of my knee. Like, oh,
I don't want to jump to confidence. I don't. I
don't want evidence. Yeah, I just messed with you. So
these professional athletes have come back and really, you're good

(44:42):
a year after turning their a c O. You know,
my hat's off. It's it's it takes a bit. So
you're seventeen or eighteen and Joel you're a couple of years.
How much older are you there? So if you're twenty,
what are you doing it? When he's doing this? I
had had an Australian one of Dad's actually old Australian mates.
When I was about sixteen is he said to Dad.
I remember we were on an RV because we rented

(45:03):
these RVs for Rebecca on the road instead of two
of us were cheaper, and he said, hey, David, you
should your son should do music, and and uh it
was I don't know Dad, his middle Charlotte, I know
what it was, but it was never really a consideration
for him. So for about sixteen onward I started writing
and just sort of exploring music, and periodically between sixteen

(45:24):
and twenty one, Dad had come and said, hey, I
think you know you should, you know, you should do
music with your your little brother, and I was like,
I don't know, I don't want to mess with that. Yeah,
he can play drums because he's a good drummer. And
I was like, no, I think you should try writing
with him. So almost to sort of shut that up,
I was like, all right, and Luke at Towns a
c l As I felt really sorry for him. Of course,

(45:46):
that maybe an elaboration story. Dad wanted you to to
actually do music because he saw something that could be completed,
or do you think he wanted you to to do
something together because you were brothers and you both were
kind of just finding I think I actually think I
think he actually saw something. I think he knew there
was a there was a First of all, Dad's a

(46:06):
smart cookie, so he looked at the market place and
at that point there were no duos duos, so he's like, okay, choose.
So he was like, uh, you know, this is a
good idea of marketing wise, but he's like, there's something
actually between you guys personality wise and voices that sort
of blends. So personality wise on stage, are you do

(46:30):
you have the same dynamic? Are you A? And are you?
And I mean that's like type A because my comedy
partner we do music, Eddie, he's such a type being.
It's awesome. Fits me perfectly because he there has never
been a more stable straight guy and it makes me.
He makes me funnier because he's just freaking so everybody's like,
Bobby is so good funny, But it's like it wasn't ready.

(46:52):
I wouldn't be able to knock his Like Eddie's your
baseline just but he's so like, is that dynamic with
you too? The same as it was a brothers, are
you the foundation? Are you since you're the older? How
does that work? On stage? On stage is a little
bit different, right because and is it different than creating?
Does some really flamboyant moves on stage that I'm like, man,

(47:15):
I'm flamboyant, but I don't even think I could do that?
And you know what's funny? So anyway, off stage, off
stage absolutely, because I haven't been to a show. Yeah, tickets, okay,
Now it's a bit bombastic on stage, but offstage, which
is sort of the bit that probably counts the most.
It's it's so like there's the there's the yin and

(47:39):
the yang, you know, like I'm out, he's okay with
me taking the lead of points and and and it's
really it's actually music we didn't get on when we
were teenagers, Like he got taller than me. It's a
bit of sports. All the things that shouldn't happen for
a younger sibling happen with him. And so I resented
him for bettering a you know, and it was actually

(48:02):
music that kind of brought uspect together. But man I
gave him a hard time. Was there a moment musically though,
where you guys went, oh wow, okay, maybe like whether
you can think back and maybe not an exact moment
or a song that you wrote or you know. We
had Dallas Smith then, who's a Canadian singer songwriter and
he never sang, and he practiced once with like his
two boys and he and then he went it was

(48:24):
in default and there was this massive rock they had
a massive pop song and he was like, I don't
even know what I was doing. I just went and sang.
And I was like, oh gosh, I'm pretty It was
a slow it was I think it was the Jay
Leno Show January. We was our first late night show. Wait,
I'm talking about before, I'm talking about just as brother. Yeah.
I just think it was a slug. And if people

(48:46):
were to do like this and they had the footage,
because they don't, but if they were to do like
a documentary of the six years of Joel and I
are developing, it wouldn't be very interesting because it was
all the it's just the grind. It was never so natural.
And then I feel like, oh, or but what's funny
is you know what do they say? You know, you
practice really hard, so it looks effortless. You know in

(49:07):
some cases it's all the songwriting sessions where he pissed
me off and I pissed it. You know, like all
of those things are the things that shape you together
and and and you know your humor has developed so
resistant the moment actually comes, you're actually you'reified. And I
think we didn't have a story, but we don't. We
don't have a yeah, we don't have like a It

(49:27):
was this moment. I've always said that the Keen Countries
just always kind of been like this is this. We've
always had just enough to keep going, and it just
keeps getting a little bit better. And I think even
like probably how we work together because we are in
some cases an unlikely likely pair. And what I mean
by that is you're unlikely because of how different the
personalities are, but you're likely because you are so different,

(49:48):
and that actually, if you have two people vying for
the same spot, it will never work. I mean, if
there was two bobbies, you guys would kill each other.
And so it's you have to have some of that.
And I don't think we probably realized it, and tell
those those years it was kind of like now I
can appreciate it because when I get up on stage.
I can, I can sit there and I go, man,
we we we work well together like this, this works.

(50:11):
But when you're when it's undefined and nobody you know,
you've you've you've not signed a record deal and you
don't have a publishing deal. You don't have these things
where other people are coming and saying I recognize something
inside of you. In some cases, you're just wandering in
the dark. Well, and then you lay on the Rebecca
component like you're always in that shadow, like, oh, that's
just that's cute. They're just Rebecca and James little brothers.

(50:33):
Look at you. You still you still doing that little
duo thing. Yeah, that's tough. And I guess I knew
you before I knew her, right because we can she
wanted Grammy kept we kept it pretty underwrap though initially
because we we oh, is that a thing? Like you
just didn't talk about it talk about And I guess
that's why I'm not even I never even thought about

(50:56):
not approaching it, because I just knew you guys first,
because I had I saw Carmen in concert, I saw
you know, I had my stage of when But I mean,
you guys are so good. I think you could. I
think sometimes and I'm gonna just pivot and get back
to it. I think sometimes you guys get unfairly pigeonholed
in a way that limits your growth because some people

(51:19):
maybe think there are there ares we don't want them
to be other in more mainstream areas. I don't know
if that's a fair because you're Christians, you're Christian artists.
But I think what you guys do and how you
do it is is I don't want to say bigger,
but I think it could reach more people even that
weren't looking for a specific message but more of a

(51:42):
generalized musical positive message. Like when I watch you guys videos,
I go and the guys are good. I mean, that's it.
It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that you're Christian artists,
doesn't matter that you're metal artists, is that you're not
metal artists. But there's just something about good music that
trans ends, and you guys have that and and country
music does it too, where they go, we're locking this down,

(52:06):
it's ours and anything else, and they don't need to
be trying to go outside of country music, and that
you don't need to be coming over here and getting
it it's always controversial when someone does it, and I
feel like, and I hope that doesn't happen to you
guys where but you are so good And I'm like, man, man,
we try not to pay attention. I think so because

(52:27):
because it guy's both ways. It's like you have the
grammar read compet and you're like, hi, everyone away here,
and you watch your publicist walk up, you know, and
then the flip side, maybe maybe not, but but of
of people who wanted to claim you, which we all
do that like this is my person and we're trying
for sure tribal. But country music is the same way.

(52:47):
And I say that speaking from the same spot where
country music does it to its artists too. I do
you guys feel that that at all has happened where
there's a certain so groups like we don't want to
see you guys go out. It's because we're so proud
of you. We don't want anybody else to have your
are your are nights. You know, it's funny, you know

(53:07):
that there's I understand the perspective that that comes from, right,
And you've said very nice, encouraging things, and I thank
you for that. I would say one of the things.
Somebody said to me years ago that they've kind of
taken to hot and that is you know, there's there's
two genres of music. There's good music and there's bad music.
And at the end of the day, there are some

(53:28):
boundary markers and and um, there are occasionally some walls.
But you're still allowed to write great music. And you
never know. In some cases, when you start to think
of things as I'm I'm just boxed in. I just
have to write these songs. The magic of of and
the brilliance of songwriting and the power of a song,
it's is destroyed. It's it's it's just been blown up.

(53:52):
But the truth is, man, it's not to say that,
you know, if if as Christians right, we should be
making the greatest art in the history of the world,
if we're in touch with the creator of the world.
I mean, this is a good thing, right, this is
an amazing thing. And so in some cases when we say, well,
you're actually good at what you do and these other

(54:12):
guys are, it's like, man, well, what if we are
all to raise our game, What if we're all to
do a little bit better? You know, what if we're
we ought to write a song that we call it
crossover or whatever. I'm never going to leave these group
of people over here, and who knows, maybe there's a
chance I can go see these people over here. But
the moment that I try to feel like I'm actually
boxed in with the way that I construct my my

(54:33):
life or my my songs on my writing, I feel
like they actually won, you know, the other people actually won.
Where my goal is man to write inspired music from
the hot that's always has always been one of his
and who knows the magic of music can take it
all around the world. And I agree with you insteadiment
completely just when you get a word put attached to

(54:55):
you like they're a Christian artist, you are Christian artists.
Your artists, you're Christian. You're a Christian. But but some
people just wanted to give you a shot because and
I guess at that point you say, well, I guess
I gotta be and I guess, And that's frustrating to
me for you. But but you know what, Bobby, there,
this is where you're powerful, Like it's really meaningful too.

(55:17):
But we followed you for a time and we've been fans.
You know, um, there have been people like yourself that
are confident enough in their own skin and um bold enough.
The only part was one of them as well, because
I don't care. This is good and and for for folks,
for a pair of us who are trying to, I think,

(55:39):
break stereotypes and and break boundaries and and come into
wider conversations, because I think that's the beauty of music,
is this free thing that we all get to be
a part of, and it can meet us on any
religious or irreligious level. And you know, it's universal language

(56:01):
that there's people like you that actually raise the flag
and go I'm in like, sign me up for that.
And I hope our story has not been completed yet
as musicians. I hope that that storyline continues, that that
people start keep breaking down the walls. What do you

(56:25):
like best about each other now as adults? It's a
good question, that's a great question. You know, I'm not
jealous of Joel, and I can see who he is
as as a younger brother with I'm actually proud, you know,
I'm not competing with him, and I love that and
I and that's not necessarily saying about him, But to

(56:46):
my point, I can say that Joel is a better
leader than me. We have different leadership styles. I can
still lead, but he has a god given ability of
Like he gets into a room, people want to follow him. Well,
why am I gonna go pete with compete with that?
Can Can I offer him a tremendous amount of support
in life in my role? Of course I can't. But
it's one of the he's got. He's got drive that

(57:08):
I don't have, you know, um and I and I
love to celebrate that in him. I don't want to
compete with that. It's like, no, I don't need to
sit there and say, oh, I'm oh, I don't forget
about me, man, I'm I'm proud of him. I'm proud
of him as a brother, proud of him as a leader,
and I'm proud of what we've been able to, you know,
some of these things that we're able to do and
and if it wasn't for him, many of which we

(57:29):
would not be doing. Joel adult version. What do you
love about him? I'm well, I love that he put
up with me at such a long time. You know,
I think you and I have probably taking snapshots of
the our younger selves and just sort of politely and
kindly and lovingly sort of shaking our heads and our
younger selves. And man, I put in through the ring
in those earliers because he hadn't written a song. He

(57:51):
was as green as the grass on the lush spring
day playing and so I sort of loaded that over
him for a long period of time. It was actually
was when he got really ill early in our public
career that that it really kind of reset a lot.
And even down the last year there was another reset um.

(58:14):
But I'm so I'm proud of him for just staying
in it, like and I'm proud of him for digging.
And I think part of what Luke's type of personality,
the peacemaker can just be like if I don't if
I don't exert myself, then I never quite fail. But
if I don't exert myself, then you know, quite win neither.
And he's really he's dug in deep on not only
our relationship, he's dug in deep on music. And then

(58:35):
I'm really, I'm really I'm not a dad yet he's
a father of four. I'm really proud of him as
a dad, Like I'm proud of proud of the way
he loves his wife. But he's just a good he's
just a good dad, like he brings his brings my
god children and his kids around a lot um. Yeah,
what's the hardest thing about working with your brother all

(58:58):
the time. You kind of know each other's tricks. You know,
he knows when I'm you know, feeling one way or
or you know, in some cases of going back off.
I'm a good pitch man, but I'm a crap pitch
man with Luke. To renegotiates, you can't. You can't, you know,

(59:18):
he knows. You know. Even there's been times where there's
been sensitive decisions that have to be made and I'm
kind of dancing around some things and he goes, you know,
tell me what it really is, you know, because I
know you don't want to do this because of X,
y Z. And sometimes they're difficult things to then discuss,
but it must be discussed. It's those types of things

(59:39):
where you you know, you know each other so very well.
It's like playing It would be like playing yourself in
a sports match. You know what you're gonna try and
do to the other person, right, and you've got to
But I think it's probably good, you know. That's one
of the things I actually like about working with families,
like at the end of the day with friends at times,
and obviously work well with friends, but um, if they

(01:00:00):
if you can't make them mad enough, they're just like peace.
With family. You've still got to do Thanksgiving together, You've
still got to do Christmas, and you've got to so
in some cases you're forced to reconcile. I don't think
that's a bad discipline. M hm. That's interesting. Do you
feel like love is a discipline? Well, you can get

(01:00:22):
You're always given the choice of loving and hating, you know,
so in some cases you know you have it. The
discipline of love is um, I think that's something that
Isn't that human? Isn't that life? Isn't that what we're
trying to do with life? Sure? I asked, I mean
I was. I've been estranged from different before my mom died,
and she had a lot of issues and we got

(01:00:42):
to the point with her addiction that it got to
the point where we got a strange for a while,
my sister for a while until she got she's completely
clean now. But I always dealt with is this a choice?
Do I get to am I giving? I don't know.
It's just a good it's a good question. I think
with that specific ingredients. You know, it's funny. I talked
it back on the plane belt yesterday. There's a lot

(01:01:04):
of these really cool, like biblical parables that's just stories basically,
But the parable the prodigal son, it's like we always
focus on the kid and and like this guy is
a bit of an idiot. But the dad, like the
dad not only did he give him all the stuff,
but the dad waited, like he didn't go and enable him.
He didn't go. He might have died in the pig pen,

(01:01:26):
but didn't go to the farm land. He didn't go
get in the He literally actively waited for his son
to return. So I think man loves all of it,
loves and action, loves waiting, loves the boundary points, you know.
But it's it's but, But I think where we get
tangled up, at least where I've gotten tangled up, is
like love. Part of love can be a feeling, but

(01:01:49):
it is in my experience it isn't. I think it's
your example. Man, Addiction is a tough one to navigate
when it comes to am I hurting or am I
helping right now? But if you're countenance of when given
the opportunity, do you forgive? That's love, doesn't mean that
I mean it's all gonna be perfect, but let's say
something changes. Are you Are you going to be that?

(01:02:11):
I forgive? Man? Is there any greater love than forgiveness?
When you've been actively wronged and you're gonna give that
post and the opportunity to forgive them, that's a big one.
I feel like you guys have to be nice to
everybody all the time because you're quote unquote Christian artists,
and that will be hard. Yeah, I don't mind. It's

(01:02:31):
an unfair I think it's and I try to be
nice everybody all the time anyway. But still I can.
And I'll give you an example of when I'm in
a room, I feel like I'm a walt. I'm so
introverted until I'm extroverted. I'm not an extrovert in any
way whatsoever until it's time to perform. And that's where
it sounds. It's all of it right. And so if
I'm somewhere, just like in line at Chipotle, I don't

(01:02:53):
keep my head down. I don't want to bother anybody,
but some maybe like hey, we saw Bible and Chipotle
can't talk to a single person. What a jerk, now,
But I don't have And that's just me being well,
you're not you're not representing this to make this a
spiritual analogy just for a second, like he did. I
always found it funny when it would talk about all
the stories of Jesus, when he would go and heal

(01:03:14):
all these people, right, that means that he passed by
thousands upon thousands of people never healed him. He wasn't nice.
Historically he would have based on the locations he was in,
he would have just passed. And the other thing is
is how many times did he say and he went
away to be alone by himself actively saying no to
the people that are like chasing him. So we should

(01:03:35):
do the same at times. We can't be all things
to all people. That's that's that's you know. But my
my goal is to be generous. My goal is to
be to be kind, you know, to the best of
our billy. I think that's the way we meant to live.
But there are times when I go to Chipotle and
I can't. I kind of keep my head down and
I go and order my food, and I'm with my kids,
and I just feel like it's a pressure that you

(01:03:57):
guys don't deserve because of then, and I've kept you
beyond time. But um, we we did a lot of
the data stuff before you guys came in. We know
you're wildly famous, you got all the number one singles,
you got all the shows, and you know, I just
wanted to use this time that we had together so
people get to know so good man, the folks. I mean,
that's what it is. I think the best interviews you
talked about it before. The best interviews is when you

(01:04:18):
don't have to listen to the notes where you don't
have to like, yeah, I mean I have all the
I didn't really even go to it because I'm just
interested in perspective mostly and as we own it with yours.
And I will say this just probably as far as
perspective like your, I think it's because you're so arranged
in the people that the genres and the people that
you sort of touch on as far as interviewing and

(01:04:40):
and and and doing life with and holding up it's
a very unique perspective that you have. It's an important
one because you're actually you're a bridge builder, I think
in between uh different people and and this is this
is like the last frontier of a format. We can
actually sit around and really digest some of this stuff.

(01:05:01):
Like not give you a bit of candy to get
your sugar levels up, but like, let's digest these these ideas.
We feel very very sane. So thank you. Well, let's
do this. Whenever you guys do announce your movie and
do announce the project, come back. I could do another hour,
but honest, I got my trainers on the front yard
ready for me right now, with Eddie probably, and he's

(01:05:23):
out there taking your well, I mean, waiting on me
at this point right now. Man, if you're just getting
out of it, man, this is good. There's no getting
out of it, no getting out of it. But I
I just I enjoy you guys. I know when I've
been watching you guys the same way, mostly just because
your science will pop up all over when I'm driving
to work, and I'm like, those guys are both better

(01:05:44):
looking than me, and i'd be jealous, and then I
would listen to the music and go, I'm inspired, and
probably not for the same reasons they think everybody else
is inspired, the same reason that they're being told. I
just listen and then motivated by the music, and then
I would see clips you guys, you're just really good.
And in the end, it's the most simple thing I
could say, is that what you guys do, the elementary version,

(01:06:06):
is just really good at it. And what it is
isn't really able to be defined because do you sound good. Sure,
do you have a good but you see your instrument
daysers lives. Yeah, yeah, but everybody does. But but also
it's just good all the elements people can do really
well individually. But it's just something about you guys. Man,

(01:06:27):
I don't know, and if I could define it, I would,
and you can't. But it's there and you don't need
my my little pep talk here. But I'm just I'm
a believer and so keep it up. You're killing it.
I love to see it. I'm proud of you guys,
And that's all. Mike, don't don't edit that low spit
out of the We're gonna beat it. I'm gonna take

(01:06:48):
that and I'm gonna like just play that just anytime
I have a depressing night, I'm in there. There are
a few artists that actually moved me. I'm jaded. I'll
end with this. I'm JD. We all get a bit
jade because we're around the best of the best all
the time. Where the town where the giants, Land of Giants.
Everybody's good here. I'm moved by you guys, and I
don't and it's it could be one of many things,

(01:07:10):
but I love it. Thank you for spending over an
hour with me, and we talked about it. But you
guys go check it out. The spring Tour what are
waiting for starts March ninth, all the way to the
end of May for King and Country dot Com. And
I'm gonna go work out, and you guys are gonna
go to sit in the bathtub. And your son left

(01:07:31):
in and now Mike told him about the pool. He's
probably like the pool. Mike lives here. Good to see
you guys,