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May 28, 2024 40 mins

Over her lifetime, Dame Barbara Cartland would write over 700 books that would sell more than 750 MILLION copies worldwide. Though her books were primarily aimed and read by women, Cartland's messages were strickingly regressive, with an ephasis on purity that seems strange to modern readers of romance novels. As her step-granddaughter Diana Spencer would one day discover, some fairy tales don't align with reality.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
and Mild from Aaron Mankie Listener discretion advised. The year

eighteen o eight, the setting Regency, England. There we meet
a man called Sir Giles Staverlely, a gambling addict who
attempted to win back all he had by betting his
daughter Serena's hand in marriage and betting her eighty thousand

pound trust fund, but he lost once again, and unable
to face his daughter, he instigated and lost a duel
on purpose, ultimately killing himself. This left Serena's fate in
the hands of the man her father lost to, Lord

Justin Vulcan, who she'd been told was simply the worst
sort of rake. She swore she could never fall in
love with a man like Lord Vulcan, but after he
invited her to come live at his estate, Man Drake,
the two come to form an unlikely bond, but they

also had to contend with Justin's scheming mother, highwaymen, gamblers,
and smugglers before the two of them could admit their feelings.
In case you haven't realized, that is, of course all
a work of fiction, a historical romance written long before

any of the Bridgeton's stepped into their semi anachronistic shoes.
Published in nineteen forty nine, A Hazard of Hearts was
just one of over seven hundred works published by Dame
Barbara Cartland, otherwise known as the Queen of Romance. Her

work earned her many fans of all ages, including a
young Diana Spencer, who would eventually become both the Princess
of Wales and Barbara's own step granddaughter. Despite not being
born with a title, Barbara would run in noble circles

her entire life, including her connections to her dearest friend,
Lord Mountbatten of Burma, Prince Philip's uncle, and other men
of high birth that she would allege were the potential
true fathers of her daughter. To this day, Barbara continues
to hold her spot as the fifth most translated author worldwide,

thanks to the success of novels like A Hazard of Hearts,
as well as The Cruel Count, The Angel and the Rake,
and my personal favorite title, The Marquise Who Hated Women,
all featuring fantastically illustrated covers that are, as best as
I can describe them, buttoned up bodice rippers. More on

the purity later, though some of those novels were even
adapted into films. A Hazard of Hearts was made for
television in nineteen eighty seven, featuring a fresh faced Helena
Bonham Carter in one of her first major roles as
the unlucky Angenoux Serena. A print ad for the film

read quote, he captured her body with force, he freed
her soul with passion. That is more often and not
a general theme in Barbara's novels. An innocent girl is
caught up in a dastardly scheme, but she ultimately makes
a good man out of a not so good one.

Barbara certainly did not invent the tropes of the romance novel,
but it's not a stretch to say she defined them
for an era. Still, we can't say her extensive collection
is exclusively one note. Heroiness also include a professional figure skater,
a quote lovely young gang leader, and a Scottish spy

in the French court watching over a young Mary Stuart,
which should delight any of our listeners over on Patreon
who have been listening to our recap of the television
show Rain. As time went.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
On and Barbara continued to produce more and more books
every year. She became a British culture figure, frequently showing
up in print and on television to discuss her thoughts
on love and morality in an extensive and iconic pink wardrobe.

Barbara may have been the Queen of Romance, but as
we will learn from her once fan Diana, fairytale stories,
especially when they involve nobles, don't always follow a simple
plot structure. I'm Dana Schwartz and this is noble blood.

Gwenn Robbins authorized biography of Barbara Cartland begins by making
something very clear. Quote. Firstly, she is a direct descendant
of the oldest Saxon family in existence. End quote. Barbara's
mother's ancestor was apparently Thomas de Scovenhol, the High sh

Sheriff of Devonshire thirty two years before the Norman conquest.
From him, you can trace the family lineage directly to
Mary Hamilton Scobel aka Polly, Barbara's mother. The family faced
major upheaval shortly after Barbara was born in nineteen oh one.

Her paternal grandparents, the Cartlands, had been suddenly bankrupted when
their bank surprise called in immediate payment on a twenty
five thousand pound loan that Barbara's grandfather, James, had taken out.
That very weekend, Barbara's parents left young Barbara to go
visit the distraught grandparents, inviting them to come stay with

the young family. The elder Cartlands refused to leave their home,
and James told his daughter in law that he would
see her on Monday. On Sunday morning, James Cartland shot himself.
His death left his debt to his son, Barbara's father, Bertie.
Polly and Bertie's home, Bobrooke, had been verbally given to

them by James, but as the title deeds were not
in their name, the bank said the house was to
be surrendered to pay the overdue loan. The house was
put up for sale, along with nearly all of the
belongings in it. Poor I may be, but common I
am not, Barbara's mother, Polly declared. While her husband and

his mother were said to be incapacitated by the circumstances,
Polly found a new home for the family to rent
on their three hundred pounds a year income. Bertie, a
former officer of the British Army, naturally did not work
as would be completely unbefitting of a gentleman of the age,

and so that money came from allowances from their respective families.
For forty pounds a year, they moved into a country
home in Worcestershire, fit with six bedrooms, a tennis court, stables,
and four acres of overgrown gardens. That was where Barbara
grew up, and those gardens were where she first invented

new worlds. Quote. I never drive through Worcestershire in the
spring without the memory of our garden like a pink
and white fairyland, she would reflect as an adult. She
recalls listening to the trees and hearing the fairies moving
about inside, and she was sure that she saw wings
among the flowers. Her first experience with literature was with

the novels she could find in her father's study, mainly Dickens,
and her mother then began to nurture Barbara's love of
stories by reading her fantasy books. Upon her mother's death
years later, Barbara would find amongst the piles of paper
her mother had kept the very first short story she

had ever written at five and a half years old.
But sudden bankruptcy wouldn't be the only upheaval in young
Barbara's life. When it became obvious in nineteen fourteen that
the country was to go to war with Germany, Bertie
was called up to serve. As he was stationed in

different parts of England, the family moved around to stay
with friends near him. In nineteen seventeen, Bertie was killed
in action. Polly was now a widow and a single
mother to three children, Barbara and her two younger brothers.
Barbara recalls that her mother adopted a stricter sense of

discipline during that time, but it was always clear that
she did everything out of love. Polly had also been
something of a surrogate mother to her husband, who needed
motivation and guidance throughout his lia adult life, and she
was determined that her own children would be self sufficient.
Barbara would later reflect quote, Mummy lit a flame in

all three of us that was to burn brighter year
by year. She made us believe in ourselves and our capabilities.
She made us see that anything was possible if we
really wanted it and worked hard enough. Shortly after her
father's death, Barbara turned eighteen and left school. During her
school years, her love of storytelling only grew. She discovered

the romance novels of ethel M. Dell, BERTA. Ruck, and
Eleanor Glynn, who was notably quite the scandalous writer of
her time. It was actually Dell's influence in particular that
would have the greatest impact on Barbara's career. Barbara's biographer writes,
Barbara really believed all heroes should be tall, silent men,

seething with burning passions, but passions so controlled that one
was not aware of them until they broke down under
an overwhelming love. Her leading ladies, on the other hand,
should be quote soft, sweet, easily frightened, yet longing to
be dominated by a strong and masculine man. Barbara was

a so called plain child, so much so that apparently
other mothers pitied Polly, but by this time she had
blossomed into something of a classic leading lady herself. Barbara
received her first proposal this summer after school, on holiday
with her family on the Isle of Wight. He was

a colonel over forty years old with a red handlebar mustache.
Barbara wanted absolutely nothing to do with him, rushing to
her mother to ask for help. Polly told her daughter,
you must learn to look after yourself. It's harsh advice,
but falls in line with Polly's desay desire to instill

self sufficiency and tenacity within her daughter. Still, when another
elderly married this time man, tried to make advances on
Barbara that same summer, he was met with Polly's fury.
This clown, in turn asked out Polly instead. When asked

if any of her suitors that summer attempted to kiss her,
Barbara responded, certainly not. We were not mauled in those days.
Our innocence protected us. I was quite determined that the
only man who would ever be allowed to kiss me
on the lips was the one I would marry. Barbara
would have plenty more marriage candidates to consider when she

moved to London with the family after that summer break.
She had a small budget for clothes provided by her mother,
and she began to experiment with fashionable makeup and hair
of the time, all in service of her coming out
in society, and Barbara was a hit. Courting in nineteen

twenty's London mainly consisted of dinner and dancing, but it
was improper for a man and woman to dine alone together,
so the woman would have dinner at home while the
man dined at his social club before picking up his
date later. Once the dancing was done, a taxi would
be called. The driver would stop for a coffee at

the green painted stand at the corner of Hyde Park
while the young couple sat in the back seat. This
was all a dance of its own. The cab drivers
would all sit together and chat and play cards while
the couples in their back seats scored some convenient alone time.

Barbara often sat in these back seats, remembering the quote
delicious feeling of anticipation, but mind out of the gutter.
Which she was anticipating was a potential proposal, or just
to see if her date would attempt a kiss in
the backseat of one of those cabs. Barbara did accept

a proposal from a gentleman named Dick Usher, a young
officer Polly. Her mother had advised her to wait a
month to announce the engagement in the Times, and it
was a good thing she did, because Barbara had a
question for her mother, How does one have a baby?

Speaker 1 (14:31):
She asked.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
It had been nagging at her and it was never
taught at the girls' schools she attended. Barbara had thought
it had something to do with a man kissing a
woman's neck, because one of the novels she read contained
the line quote he kissed her neck passionately, and she
knew what he meant. When Barbara's mother told her how

things actually worked, Barbara was so horrified that she broke
off the engagement. Barbara would go on to say that
throughout her life she never enjoyed being touched or kissed
unless it was by someone she really loved. Two nights
after she broke the news to Dick, they ran into

each other at a party, and, feeling sorry for him,
Barbara agreed to talk. They took a taxi to the
stall at Hyde Park, where Dick proceeded to take out
a revolver and he declared, unless you marry me, I
will shoot myself. This was, believe it or not, Barbara's

second incident with a loaded gun in her young life,
after another army officer had attempted to flirt with her
by showing off his weapon and nearly shooting her after
incorrectly believing the gun had no bullets left. And to
be clear, I promise these are not innu windows. Barbara
was able to talk Dick down far enough that he

got tired and agreed to take Barbara home, where she
rushed through the front door and up to her mother's bedroom.
Dick later wrote a letter to Polly describing his agony.
If only I weren't cursed with such a big, big love,
it might be easier. But you know that I just

worship Barbara with my whole heart and soul and body.
That to lose her is worse than a million times.
The torture of the damned life was certainly providing Barbara
with plenty of material for her future career. In nineteen twenty,
Barbara declared to her family one morning over breakfast that

she was going to write a novel. They laughed, You'll
never finish it, they said. She started right away. Once
she had a few chapters completed, she showed them to
her mother, Polly, who offered both criticism and compliments. Polly
asked a writer friend over for lunch, where she in
turn asked Barbara to read her draft out loud, A

personal nightmare for many writers, especially a writer just starting out,
but it was apparently a breeze for Barbara. It's very good,
the writer told her. Finish it. Barbara spent three months
doing just that. Where many writers also struggle to find
their voice, Barbara had internalized her beloved romance novels and

knew exactly what she wanted to say and how to
say it. Their eyes met reads one of the closing
lines of that first novel. Each was conscious of the
flame of love and desire within the other explanations words
were unnecessary. Barbara called the book Jigsaw and dedicated it

to Polly. It cost seven shillings and sixpence and it
became a minor sensation almost immediately. Jigsaw tells the story
of the innocent but enchanting Mona, who ends up in
a love triangle with a sensible, strong willed duke and
a dark and handsome stranger. Mona ultimately chooses the duke

as goodness prevails over temptation. This is a good moment
to talk about the tropes of Barbara's writing. In her
own words quote, there are two means. One is the impatient,
rather aggressive crusader, sometimes overpowersing with a tendency to fight

violently for what I believe is right. And the other
image I have of myself is sweet, soft, gentle, understanding,
perceptive and very feminine. Longing to be protected by a
strong masculine man. It is a kind of idealistic, mental
and spiritual virginity which I have given my heroines, and

which I have always had myself. End quote Mona Or
Barbara has an angel and a devil, so to speak
on her shoulder in Jigsaw, the strong but silent Duke
Peter and the exciting but dangerous Alec. It brings to
mind the Madonna horror complex, which sees women as either

saintly or degenerate, never in between. Barbara's heroines are always
pure madonnas who seek stability with Peters, and they must
reject their inner whore who is driving them toward an
alec or. Sometimes the heroine is so saintly that the

leading man will overcome his degeneracy in order to devote
himself to her. This episode isn't a book report, but
these themes, especially with regards to the way she frames
and portrays women and female desire, I think is important
when we think about how much Barbara has stated that
her heroines represent herself and her morals. Back to Jigsaw's success.

Now a minor celebrity, Barbara was becoming even more popular
in the London social scene than she had already been.
Her dance card was always full, and she was always
present in the gossip columns of magazines like Tattler and
other newspapers. At the same time, Barbara had already been

secretly writing four gossip columns, gathering tips from her society circles,
and she would continue that secret career four years. Can
someone say, Lady Whistle down? These social circles contained various
lords and ladies, earls and countesses, and a young Winston Churchill,

who Barbara struck up a friendship with. Barbara would get
further inspiration for her leading men when she met the
Duke of Sutherland. He, like most men Barbara encountered, also
fell in love with her, but there was the issue
of his already having a wife, and his advances were rejected.

When Barbara did decide to marry, it was proposal number fifty.
Alexander George mccorkadale was not one of Barbara's brooding dukes. Rather,
he was a British Army officer from Scotland and heir
to a printing fortune. He was, however, said to have

looked the part of a Cartland hero, dark haired, strong,
and yes, of course brooding. The couple were married on
April twenty third, nineteen twenty seven. For the wedding, Barbara
wore the first tool dress that society had seen since
World War One, made by the English designer extraordinary Norman Hartnell,

but designed by Barbara herself. Years later, Barbara would write
an article on honeymoons for The Evening News, and although
she describes a fictitious young bride in the article, there
was truth to her own experience quote. She the fictional

bride dreamed of a strong, silent cave man, a man
of deeds but a few words, a man who, underneath
a deep reserve, was passionate, commanding, conquering. Finally, she thought
she had found that in her husband. She mistook inertia
for reserve, lack of interest for silent strength, and inexperience

for hidden passion. She was miserably disappointed. Barbara's marriage would
last only five years, but it brought the couple a baby, girl,
Rain mccorkidale. In September of nineteen twenty nine, Barbara's mother
in law implored her to give up her career and
stop writing her quote immoral novels, but she had no

intention of doing that. Not only did Barbara continue her
literary career as a mother, but she took on new ventures,
including advocating for better public health awareness. After her daughter
reign inexplicably fell nearly fatally ill, and Barbara also became
interested in aviation advancements. Particularly, she was interested in recent

innovations in gliding, and she worked with two inventors to
deliver the first air mail cross country via glider. When
the project was complete, it was of course christened the
Barbara Cartland Glider. Her experiment proved to be essential to
further designs and had an impact on the air mail

system during the Second World War, so much so that
in nineteen eighty four she was awarded the US Bishop
Wrights Air Industry Award. While Barbara continued to explore her
new career ventures and interests, she faced difficulties at home.

In the early nineteen thirties, while her husband was away,
Barbara came across a series of love letters in another
woman's handwriting. Instead of confronting her husband directly the next morning,
she took her findings straight to his parents. Upon returning
from his trip, her husband went straight to their home

and refused all requests to see or speak to his wife.
The social circles Barbara had once been the darling of
were now beginning to shun her as a divorcee. The
Matrimonial Causes Act that allowed for either spouse to petition
for divorce on the basis of adultery had only just

been adopted in nineteen twenty three, a decade earlier, and
the upper echelons of British society were never the ones
to quickly adopt progressive mindsets. The Countess of Pembroke forbade
Barbara from helping her arrange a charity ball, which was
ironic considering the Earl of Pembroke had just run away

with another woman and was at the moment begging his
wife for a divorce. It should also be noted though
Barbara may not have been entirely faithful during the marriage either.
This claim must be taken with a grain of salt,
as it was reported in The Daily Mail posthumously as
a conversation that happened off the record, but she allegedly

told a journalist that she had a number of lovers
who could even potentially have been Rayne's real father, including
her prototypical hero, the Duke of Sutherland and Prince George,
the Duke of Kent. Barbara would go on to have
two more children, both sons, with a second husband, her

ex's cousin, Hugh mccorkydale. They had been friends and he
became something of a rock for Barbara during the years
following the divorce. Darling, I am getting older, reads a
letter from Hugh to his future wife. Yet you, the
loveliest creature God ever made, loves me and wants to

marry me. It's so wonderful, I can't believe it's true.
The couple would have twenty seven years together before Hugh
passed due to a heart condition, but he would be
the great love of Barbara's life. The couple were married
in nineteen thirty six, by which point Barbara had begun

to publish around two novels a year. Throughout all of
those events I discussed, and all of the events I
will discuss, it is safe to say that Barbara was
writing through them. Barbara would continue to publish throughout the
nineteen forties, but once again she was forced to live

through a World war, and once again she would lose
family in the fighting. This time, both of her brothers
died in Dunkirk. As daily life in London got more perilous,
Barbara and her children left for Canada at the invitation
of a friend, but Barbara soon decided she had made

a mistake and that she and her family should return
to England, where her husband, Hugh had remained. She wanted
to help however they could. She would become the chief
Lady Welfare Officer to the Services in Bedfordshire, which often
meant improving the lives of local women. Some of her
aid came in the form of getting the service women

better material for their clothing, helping them feel more beautiful,
and some of it came in the form of helping
local pregnant women or women going through divorces. As the
only female welfare officer, she was in a unique position
to understand problems that were often overlooked by men. By

all accounts, she was excellent at her job, but it
seems like an odd fit when you consider that Barbara
publicly stated numerous times that she did not care for
women in general and had very few women friends in
her life. As the war ended, Barbara became even more

devoted to her writing, finishing her thirtieth novel and resuming
her journalistic career. In nineteen forty eight, inspired by her
daughter's first extravagant wedding, Barbara responded to a request from
a woman's magazine that implored her to write a historical romance.

That book would be Hazard of Hearts, and it would
change the course of Barbara's career. Until that point, her
stories had been modern, but the more she researched, the
more she discovered her love of history. It also didn't
hurt that one of Barbara's primary values, a woman being
a virgin, had been even more valuable in the days

of yore. In nineteen fifty, Barbara and her family moved
to Camfield Place, a country estate built by Edmund Potter,
grandfather of Beatrix Potter. Its gardens actually gave birth to
Peter Rabbit, just as the gardens of Barbara's childhood home
had been the original source of her imagination. That same year,

Barbara faced a plagiarism allegation from one of her original inspirations,
Georgette Hayre Hayer, alleged that Hazard of Hearts replicated character
names and plot points from a number of her novels,
but the case never went to court, so we'll never
know exactly what went down. Over the next decade, Barbara

would continue to produce an astonishing number of novels, and
by the sixties there was a devoted market of British
women eagerly awaiting every publication. By the early seventies, Barbara
had sold fifty million books. As the decade went on,
she would produce on average two books a month. Her

afternoons consisted of dictating her writing to her secretaries. She
could average seven thousand words in accession, which usually lasted
a few hours. Her secretaries were not permitted to sneeze
or cough while Barbara dictated from the couch with a
hot water bottle at her feet and her dog cuddled

next to her. This would be her routine for the
rest of her life. In nineteen seventy six, Barbara's daughter
Rain married Earl Spencer, the father of Diana. However, when
Rain fell for the Earl, she was already married with
four children. It's like one of your books, she apparently

told her mother. I am wildly in love and there's
nothing anyone can do about it. Sixteen year old Diana
had grown up a fan of her new step grandmother's novels,
and one of the princess's biographies claims that Cartland used
to send her advanced copies even before they became family.

There's a really great picture of a young Diana reading
one Cartland novel while two other books sit on her lap,
and we can only imagine she's dreaming about her own
romance one day with a duke, or an earl, or
even a prince. Rain, as Princess Diana scholars might know,

was hated by Diana and often referred to by Diana
and her siblings as Acid Rain. Their relationship was incredibly
strained for most of her life, although they would mend
things shortly before Diana's tragic death. Even before Diana became family,

Barbara had another royal connection, a long intimate friendship with
Lord Mountbatten of Burma, Prince Philip's uncle, who even helped
her write one of her romances, Love at the Helm,
by providing her information from his naval background. Barbara did
not attend the eventual royal wedding between Diana and Charles,

but she insists it was not a snub that she
instead gave up her seat so that her son Ian
could go instead. Still, Barbara would only gain more tabloid
attention from her association with the princess at a time
when her books were already becoming more popular than ever.
After all, what was Diana but a Cartland character come

to life, a young woman swept away by a romance
with a prince. The nineteen sixties saw censorships being lifted
that allowed for racier material to now be published, but
a boom of pornography meant that for many the pendulum

of taste would swing the other way, and publishers saw
a major market for Barbara's virginal heroines. The debate between
erotica and romance was best exemplified in a nineteen eighty
seven TV appearance from Barbara, where she appeared alongside the
novelist Jackie Collins, whose hit book The stud exemplified for Cartland.

Everything wrong with romance? It's evil, really, Barbara began, what
Collins asks, the book books you write quite frankly. Collins
replies that she doesn't believe there's anything evil about writing
about sex, something so natural. But Barbara is having none
of it. Don't you think it has helped perverts? She asks,

and worries about the book's influence on children. The YouTuber
Contrapoint in her video on Twilight actually discusses that debate,
describing it as quote surreal to watch a quote eighty
year old woman in clown drag lecture an audience about

sexual purity. Since this is an audio medium, I leave
it to you to watch the debate for yourself and
decide if that description is apt. Barbara's crusades in her
older age didn't just stop at bashing what she saw
as immoral erotica. She campaigned for purity for women, promoting

religious morality, as well as writing an article where she
expressed her worries that books published by gay man's press
could quote easily pollute children's minds. In response, The Gay
Times wrote, quote, given the garbage that Cartland turns out,
I would think that GMP are quite happy to be

in a different league, youch There's a quote from Cartland
that's in Robin's biography that reveals a sad truth. Cartland
says marriage is the best investment that was ever invented
for women. It's a security against their old age, against

them being deserted after losing their looks and becoming unattractive.
To throw away all that when you are young and
foolish is very reckless end quote. Even as the Sexual
Revolution and the Equal Rights Amendment began to gain traction,
Barbara held onto the security of tradition and shamed the

women who did not. It's incredible in a way that
a woman who would sell millions of copies of books
with a sizeable income would still see the greatest security
in her old age as still being wanted or tolerated
by a man. While the world was progressing in a

way that frankly horrified her, Barbara could always write about
a past she believed was exemplary. In the nineties, Barbara
published her five hundred and sixty fifth book, breaking the
record for the greatest number of books ever written by
British authors. By then, in her nineties, Barbara was still

churning out novels, and in nineteen ninety one, apparently after
years of complaining that she never received even a quote
measly mbe, she was made a Dame for her contribution
to literature and for her work in the community and
with charities. In two thousand, at the age of ninety eight,

Barbara died in her sleep, in her home. Her official
website states that over her career, she wrote seven hundred
and twenty three novels. She also left behind a series
of one hundred and sixty unpublished novels, which were later
published by her son Ian as the Barbara Cartland Pink Collection.

Barbara believed in reincarnation and was not afraid of death. Quote.
I've had a wonderful life with ups and downs, tears
and laughter, but so much kindness, so much happiness, so
much love, she told her biographer. How could all that
be lost? How could the effort, the striving, the sacrifices

be wasted. I believe my faith will make it all
come true tomorrow. It's a very romantic thought. That's the
story of the particular British icon Dame Barbara Cartland. But

keep listening after a brief sponsor break to hear one
important story I believe about one of her most important hobbies.
I could not end this episode without telling you about
Album of Love Songs, Barbara's record with the Royal Philharmonic.

Her singing is, let's say, interesting, but the real gems
of the album are the spoken word tracks, where she
waxes poetic about all things love. It is really the
kind of thing you just have to go listen to
on your own. I could give you my thoughts or
I could read you. A YouTube comment from noted critic

Lizzie Allen twenty two eighty four quote, OMG, it doesn't
get any camper than this. Could not have said it
better myself. Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and
Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Noble Blood is hosted
by me Danish Forts, with additional writing and researching by

Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zewick, Courtney Sender, Julia Milani, and Armand Cassam.
The show is edited and produced by Noemy Griffin and
rima Il Kali, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive
producers Aaron Manky, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Four more

podcasts from iHeartRadio visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
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