Almost Famous In Depth: Dean Unglert

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous in Depth. Yeah,
do you feel like it sits it down very sixty minutes?
Um in Depth has been one of our favorite projects
that we've ever done. Uh almost Famous podcasts. It's actually
I was talking about it the other day. It's probably
my favorite project I've ever done since The Bachelor. Um.

(00:22):
Here's the reason why we get to sit for as
long as we want, as long as we need with
people from the Bachelor, Bachelor at talking about their life,
what they've been through, who they are becoming, who they are,
what's made them who they are, any stances they take
on life. We just like to dig deep and then
you the listener, get to know them better. Well. A

(00:42):
few weeks ago, we started a poll and it's it's
ironic in a sense, And I want to tell you why.
We started a poll that said, who would you like
to hear from an all of Bachelor Nation and we'll
bring them into studio and we'll do it in depth
with them. Well, you would expect, probably from that pool
that's the most popular, the person from Bachelor Nation would
be chosen. Well, the ironic piece of all this is

(01:05):
the person that was chosen does not believe that he
is the most popular person. He probably never has believed
he is the most popular person. He actually um. I think,
as we talked to today, will be will make fun
at some point of the fact that he was chosen.
He'll he'll he'll make some comment that diminishes it. But
the truth is this Dean Anglet was chosen in a landslide,

(01:26):
and I think there's a reason why it's one because, yes,
Dean is charming, but charm can't be deceitful. What Dean
is is he's deep, He's real, um, he cares, um.
He he doesn't uh just walk past real situations, he
walks into them. And he's had his ups and downs,
as we'll talk about in the podcast today. But but

(01:48):
you get to know Dean because you spend time with Dean,
and I think there's a relatability to Dean that has
not only made America go this guy's got something more
and I like it. But it also doesn't hurt that
he's absolutely beautiful, but he's so much more. Dean. Thanks
for coming in, Hey, thanks for having me. Thanks for
that last little cherry on top. You know, it's always

(02:10):
great when somebody gives you a really good compliment that like,
and I think you would appreciate being called real? And
then how like much does it make you cringe when
somebody's like, and you're beautiful? Honestly, that was my favorite
part about the whole because it's like, oh, he's dp
walks into the situations and I'm just like, I'm a

(02:31):
little uncomfortable. But then you sprinkle on that he's good looking.
I'm like, Okay, this is all a joke, and now
I understand. Now I know it's true. Um, Dean, how
do we meet? You? And I met for the very
first time. Actually, we we could have met at a
wine store in Low Highlands in Denver. I think I
told you the story. I was with my best friend
and his girlfriend. We walked in to buy some wine

(02:52):
to watch some I don't remember football, Navy or something
like that. But my season Bachelor hadn't aired. In fact,
I had just finished filming and I was in Colorado.
I didn't even see you, but my friend's girlfriend was like,
oh my god, that was Been Higgins. I just walked
by and I was like, I should have said hi,
but we didn't get a chance to. I don't remember
how we met for the very first time, though, I
think one of the very first times, and this is
funny is I was sitting at breakfast on a date. Yeah.

(03:15):
Well no, we had known each other at that point though,
because I remember I stopped and I was like, oh, hey, Ben, Yeah,
well that's funny that you say it like that. I
actually said Dean, and you kind of like kept walking like, oh,
what's up, dude, Oh yeah, you're right, yeah, and it's
kind of kept going. Okay in my defense, Okay, so
Ben was on a date at breakfast and I was
like randomly walking with a couple of friends and I

(03:36):
hear my name called and this is like fresh off
the show, so like you kind of get that a lot,
you know, And I look over and I see this
tall dude, like you were kind of like standing in
the shadows a little bit, and you were wearing wearing
like a flat build hat forwards and like low on
your head, which I had never really seen you wear
anything like that before, and like maybe your facial hair
was a little different, and I just didn't know who
you were for the first like thirty seconds of talking

(03:57):
to you. It's fine, we're fine, But what's happened with
Dean and I is Dean and I and I'd like
to say this, Please tell me if I'm wrong. We
met and we became friends pretty quickly, and we got
a real friendship like one that uh is not We
don't do any events together really remind me. I think
the first time we met was in Tahoe when we
were doing podcast it might be, and we got to

(04:20):
spend time together. We got to talk about life and
what I what in tregues me about you is that
you're not afraid to talk about some of the like
the depths of life. You don't you don't run away
when somebody wants to bring up something that's that's heavy. Yeah,
I think sometimes I struggle to feel the empathy that
you're able to possess. But I think that, Uh, something
I've learned as of lately over the past two or
three years or so is leaning into those difficult conversations

(04:42):
can be fun and and growth oriented. You know what
I mean? Uh, something that didn't really know for a
very long time. But yeah, I agree, I think it's
fun to have those conversations. You learn a lot about yourself,
you gotta learn a lot a lot about other people.
So I'm a little envious you gotta do this, uh
in depth on this show with Ashley be because I'm like, oh,
it sounds like a fun thing to want to be
able to get this. This is a blast. It makes

(05:04):
this feel like it's real, Like this is there's no
agenda this, I have no notes on where to go
with this. It's it's wherever we want to take it.
Is it hard for I wonder if this will be
difficult for you because you basically know me in and
out right, so you know what questions you want to ask.
But also it's not like there's no novelty to you
to like learn about me as we go on, because
you already know everything. No, that's not true. So here's

(05:25):
the thing I told as I was prepping for this.
I was talking to a buddy of mine saying, they
get to do this today, and I said, here's one
of the cool parts is how often you get to
sit down with your friend, no matter how will you
know them, and you get to ask them questions and
they can't run away from it and they can't turn
it back on you because you like to turn it
back on me as quick as you can. But I'm
hosting this like this is this is my plane to fly,

(05:46):
and you've got to stay on board. And so you're
gonna have to walk through this with me, and so
I think I'll get to know or hear things that
I've always wondered that it's never been appropriate to ask,
you know. But also bear in mind that the reason
that I able to open up to you so much
is because I'm able to direct the conversation in certain
ways and feel comfortable through misdirection like that. And so

(06:07):
I wonder if me not being able to deflect the
conversation back to you will shut me off at all.
We'll see, Yeah, we'll see. It's gonna be a fun ride.
Dean Angler in studio. Dean, let's dive in right away. Sure,
you just said something, UM that I think is is
how I'd want to start this. You said you're unable to,
um feel the empathy that that I would be in

(06:30):
deep conversations or painful conversation. Uh, take me out of
it for a second. Why do you immediately say that
about yourself? The uh that I lack empathy? Um, It's
something that I've kind of become more aware of as
time moves on and it's been kind of an im
uh an issue, not an issue, but like a hurdle

(06:51):
of sorts in past relationships. Remember this girlfriend in college
you was like, you like don't feel things, You never
feel any sort of way. And I remember I was
like watching something on Netflix and I texted her. I
was like, hey, I think I just cried. I watched
something on Netflix, Like are you proud of me? And
she goes, oh my gosh, things are changing. Um, I
don't know. I think that I just kind of grown
numb to that stuff. And it's like hard for me,

(07:12):
just like my viewpoint on life, Like you know that
UM foundationally or like our our root values are a
little different, similar but different, right, Like you get your
values from different places that I do, UM, And I
think part of where I've draw my values from, it's
like it's like a numbing thing like I draw like

(07:34):
I'm a nihilist, you know, Like I don't think that
life has any meaning, but I think that the beauty
and life not having meaning is that everything has value
in it. And so I think, like, you know, having
conversations with people and getting like to dive into who
they are and get to do this in depth, you know,
it's like, be nice to people because life is meaningless
versus you is You're like be nice to people because
it's just like the right thing to do, and like
you have your like your faith and all that kind

(07:55):
of stuff, you know what I mean. So I think
the the uh product is the same, but the process
is a little bit different for us. And I think
that the process is different for me is because I
just like, I don't know, I've been through some stuff
with my mom obviously, with my friends and with my
family and all that, and I don't want to like

(08:16):
ever blame the way that I am because of any
of those things. But I think that has obviously like
a bit of a h it's like a bit of
reason for it. Right. I don't know your store was
I don't know if you would say accurately told during
your time on The Bachelor, right, but you you definitely
had a story that was told. Um, it wasn't inaccurately told.

(08:38):
I mean, obviously it's like you're not gonna have every
uh every little crevice and crack of your story shown, right, Like,
I'm sure when you were on the show, it's not
like it was Ben Higgins, it was a shadow or
a shell of yourself. But uh yeah, I mean they
covered like the main points, you know, my mom passing,
my family kind of falling apart, and that was basically it.

(08:59):
But tell me if I'm wrong, and I just as
I've got to know you better, I feel I mean,
watching those moments back and and seeing that now on
national and television, was it uncomfortable? Um? It was uncomfortable.
It was the first time I had ever like watched
myself back, right, So it's always gonna be uncomfortable. On
top of that, I was like I was drinking to

(09:20):
like cope with the discomfort, right, And so I didn't
while we were filming, right, So I didn't necessarily, like
I know exactly how I would come across having been
like a little buzz or something like that. Right, Like normally,
when you're when you're drinking in your buzz and you
go out to the bars and you like say something silly, like,
that's the only time that you have to deal with that, right,
But when you're doing on TV, you have to deal
with it a second time when you watch it back. Um,

(09:40):
So there was like a little bit of anxiety written
because I was like, Okay, like what, how is this
going to come across? Like how am I gonna look like?
Am I gonna be coherent? Or am I gonna like
say the right things like that kind of stuff. So
that was a little anxiety inducing. Um. What's funny is
the fourth time around on the TV show, when I
didn't drink at all I had, I felt no anxiety,
you know, stressed when you think that, because I was

(10:01):
like I was completely in control of everything I was
doing and saying. So it's like I have nothing to
be afraid of. You know, Yeah, I totally get that.
When I was the Bachelor, I barely drunk drink it all. Um.
Well yeah, but and also because I had so much
anxiety going into it, I couldn't just if I drank
to cover it up it and take a lot of drinks. Um,
And your schedule is exhausting, so you're like, you know

(10:22):
you're gonna bet at two am, waking up at seven am.
Probably it's like a constant hangover and it's not gonna
be fun. I I watched your season without knowing you, um,
and your your story during that time was it was
deeper than any other we've ever seen. I would like
to believe no way. I think the idea of you.

(10:43):
I think there was a moment when you laying on
the floor of your father's house with Rachel and everything
had kind of fallen out around you during that hometown
date and you were reminiscing on all the things that
have happened to lead you that point. I think there
was a moment there where maybe just because I liked
you already, there was a depth to that With that,
I felt an emotion that I don't feel watching this show,

(11:04):
like your life was was was being displayed in front
of you. Things were what happened during that day would
have ramixifications past the show. So I want to know
from you. I don't know how in the world you
end up on this show, but during the like, as

(11:24):
you watch it back, are you glad you did it? Um? Yeah,
I think that in hindsight, I'm super grateful that I
did it because not only what like, like have I
grown as an individual since the show the first show
that I went on, but also just like seeing myself,
Like I said, I'm not much of an EmPATH right, so,
like I don't feel things, but that first show that
I went on, when I cried for the first time

(11:47):
on camera. I was like looking back that night and
I was like, oh, man, I'm gonna be like such
a woos Like I shouldn't have cried. I'm so embarrassed. Um.
And then I remember one of the producers was like, man,
like people cry, Like as long as your story took
just one person, like you should consider it a success.
And I was like, yeah, that makes sense, that's sense,
I guess. But then watching it back, I was like
so worried my friends were gonna, like, you know, make

(12:07):
fun of me and like whatever as a guy crying
on TV. But even just that small little thing, like
I guess, provide a lot of growth for me to
be like, okay, like it's okay to feel things. It's
okay to like be vulnerable and to like be upset
and be sad and cry, which I never really felt before. Um.
And that's obviously something I'm still working on. It's not
like it's gonna happen overnight. UM. But that, in and
of itself, just that first episode where it was Rachel

(12:28):
and I in UMU, Hilton Head, South Carolina or North Carolina.
I don't remember exactly what Carolina was, but I remember
I cried on that date, I told about my mom, etcetera.
And uh yeah, I was like worried about it. But
then watching it back, like the outpouring of support from everyone,
even my friends who were reaching out to me. They
were like because even before that, like before I went
on the show, Like even some of my closest friends

(12:49):
didn't even know that I, you know, lost my mom
at a young age or whatever it was, and they
watched the show and they're like, holy calic. I didn't
know this, And it was just something that I had
never really wanted to share with anyone because I didn't
want to feel receive any sympathy or like preferential treatment
because they felt bad for me something like that. You know, so, um,
but wouldn't you here's the part that and this is
where I want to pause you. This is what I

(13:09):
don't get is wouldn't you want people to fully know you?
Like these are your friends that you're worried about if
they're gonna make fun of you because you cry, yet
they don't know you, And like getting to know you
as a friend is is honestly sometimes impossible personally or
just generally generally, I would say, and like if if
you're good friends, some of your closest friends don't know

(13:30):
that your mom had passed at a young age, something
that is a pivotal moment in your life for every reason,
I don't know, Just like as a twenty five year
old guy, you're you know, you're making new friends, you're
like going out. It's it's not really something that you
bring up in conversation, even like if you have an
opportunity to bring it up. It's just not something that
I ever really cared to be like, hey, by the way,
like you know this happened to me when I was

(13:51):
fifteen or A big part of it too, was I
didn't want anyth Like I said, I don't want to
receive sympathy or preferential treatment for it. I didn't want
anyone to I didn't want to be like liked, for
liked because of the things that had happened to me.
I wanted to be liked because of the person I
am now, not the things that had happened to me
in the past, I think. And I just never really
took it on myself to be like, yeah, like this

(14:12):
is my story, you know, And a lot of people too,
especially me, Like I don't feel like my story is
wholly unique. I don't think that my story is like
worth sharing. I like kind of like began to turn
around in that a little bit. Obviously, having a podcast
and meeting people like you, uh, it kind of like
makes you feel like every story is special in its
own way. Like, sure it's unique, um, but every story

(14:34):
is worth being heard as well. And that's like taking
some time to come around on. But even now, it's like, yeah,
I don't know, I don't it's hard. It's hard to say. Really,
I guess about why I didn't open up about that
part of my life, you know, and it was such
a long time ago, and it's like, obviously the between
fifteen and twenty five is when I went on the show.
Those ten years are like some of the most transformative

(14:54):
years of your life, and so I didn't even really
associate my current self with my past self when I
was fifteen. So it's just like there's no point really
diving into that side of it. I guess have you
at all resented, um? Because as I listen to you
talk here, said, you know, I get it. I get
that you when you're twenty five, you're going out, you know,
to the bar as you meeting new friends. It's not
on the topic that's going to come up. But now
that it's happened, people know that about you. Um, they

(15:17):
know that at a young age your mother had passed
that you're all are you? Are you all resentful that
that's brought up so often? Now? Yeah, I don't like
that people can use it as an excuse for like
my behavior or something like that, you know what I mean,
Explain more, tell me more. Like, let's say, because I'm
obviously I make a lot of bad decisions in life.
I think we all do. I mean, maybe more so
than others. But sometimes I see the case being made like, oh,

(15:40):
he had a heart upbringing, so like let's give him
a pass on this. You know, I don't like hearing that.
I don't necessarily think that just because my mom died
when I was fifteen, or my friend Hunter died when
I was ten, or Alex that when I was twenty one,
that like that gives me a pass on anything. Um,
So yeah, I don't know, Like I just think it's
kind of I don't think that excuses any type of
bad behavior, you know what I mean. So I guess
maybe that's kind of why I stay quiet about it.

(16:03):
That's an anti victim mentality that you're taking. So like
you're saying, don't give me sympathy, don't don't lay off
of holding me accountable to live to being a greater
person because of the pains of my past. Though that's
not an excuse for you. I think it's a silly
thing to think that it would be things like who
whatever I wanted? People use that excuses, Yeah, but no

(16:24):
one wants that like you should You shouldn't really have
excuses and be it shouldn't be for anything that happened
to you in the past. Like, I don't know, I
just think it's silly. It's like, Okay, that was a
long time ago, a b. Even if it was like
that should encourage you to do things maybe better or differently. Um,
and so I would never like, I would never be like, oh,
I'm sorry that I did this, but when I was younger,

(16:46):
like this happened to me, and so now I feel
this way and that's what's making me act like this,
you know what I mean? Does that make sense? I
I it completely makes sense to me. It's not common.
It's the thought process of don't you my pass as
an excuse is not common. I think it should be
more common. Fair, you can you can think that it's

(17:07):
just not so when when you sit here and you
tell me, then let me, let me try to get
to the bottom of this. What role did your past
in these traumatic situations in your life that did change
the course of direction? What role do they play in
your life now? I don't think if they're not an excuse,
I don't think they play any role in my life.

(17:28):
I mean, sure they've there, they were of all stepping
stones that like every time that something happened to me,
you know, you have to come out the other side
of it, But I don't think that I don't know,
it's hard to say, Like, obviously I'm a product of
all of the experience that I've had as a person,
right and I would be a completely different person had
none of those things ever happened. And a lot of
the good things in my life that have happened are
in a weird way like because of those things, those

(17:50):
bad things, Right, So I would never say that I'm
I'm not who I am because of those things. But
they don't have like any bearing on my day to
day life, you know, like, I don't. I think they
do at least. Yeah. I think one of the things
that has always amazed me about you is that your
thought process in these moments like this, because if you

(18:12):
really do believe that, and it's it's pretty it's it's
pretty true for you that you don't use these things
that have like definitely hurt, that have caused tears, that
have caused confusion, that have shaken your world view up.
You don't use those as excuses for what you're doing today.
They're they're pivotal points, they're they're foundational building stones, as

(18:34):
you call them, but they aren't excuses for Hey, because
my mom is past, that's why I am doing X
y Z, So I want to shift gears here because
it's not fair for me. And I don't really know
what would be talked about when it comes to these
bad decisions. What bad decisions are people talking about when
it comes to you that they're dismissing your behavior because

(18:54):
of your past. I don't know. You see a lot
of like, obviously I've got not the most successful dating history, right,
So it's like I would never like now that I'm
dating Kalin, Right, I would never like if I lose
my temper, which obviously doesn't happen very often, if ever.
But I would never blame a bad decision on something
that happened to me back then because of that. Like, like,

(19:15):
so you lose your temper, right, I'm like, oh, I'm upset,
but it's okay because my mom's dead. Like that's just
kind of messed up, you know what I mean, Like,
I would never do that. That's kind of what I'm
saying where it's like, and I think it's why people.
I think it's why you're voted the one interview that
every wants to here because I think you are unique
in it. I don't think you're alone in that, and
I don't think you're wrong in it. But I Dean,

(19:36):
I think what intrigues people about you is that mindset,
because yes, you've done things like we all have, that
have been considered mistakes or maybe have hurt people in
the process or hurt yourself in the process, but you
don't look at those situations. And this is the beautiful
thing about having being a friend of yours is you
don't look at those situations and blame anything but yourself.
You take ownership for it. Everybody out there watch goes.

(20:01):
There's something freeing about that. Then I want to know
more about and I won't know where that comes from.
I don't know where it comes from. I wish I
could know where it comes from. Confidence. I don't think
there's I don't I don't know. I don't know if
I'm the most confident person in the world. Maybe inwardly,
but I don't think I expressed. I don't know. Do

(20:21):
what am I confident? I suppose maybe sometimes Tori's not
even heard. Yes, I guess so, Um. I honestly, I
really don't know. I haven't really put too much thought
into why that is that way I think again, it
boils back down. So. I mean when I was a kid,
up until I was about thirteen or fourteen, we were
pretty like devoutly Presbyterian. We went to Sunday school and

(20:42):
Sunday Church every every week up until my mom got
really really sick, and we had like this good foundational
um religious aspect to our family. Even though like the kids,
as most kids do, they hate to go to church
on Sundays, but my parents wanted to do. It was
like an hour drive every day every Sunday. I'm sorry,
um and then I went to college, I kind of
like shed all of that and I became for like

(21:04):
three years or something, I was like this like steadfastly
atheist in college, and I was like, God, isn't real
that all this is just bogus whatever. Um. I've kind
of come around on that a little bit since then,
but I think that those years in college, I was
kind of just like very heavily to nihilistic as well,
and I was just like nothing matters. All of the
past is the past, the future is the future, and

(21:25):
there's no reason to like let the past have any
dictation on your future self, right, And so I think
that's kind of where I took that mentality from. And
even in college, Like I remember I was dating this
girl when I was a sophomore. We had been dating
for like ten months or something like that, and I
had just moved into a house and with that moving
I had like a shoe box that I had like
a bunch of old pictures and stuff in and like

(21:47):
letters and all that kind of stuff that I had
never told anyone about. And she like was moving with
with me, and we like opened it together and she
was like, oh my gosh, like I'm finally getting like
a peek into you as a child or like you're older,
you know, like some of your memories and like something
that I had never really shared before. I guess I
just I've never really associated uh like past self with
either present or future self. Um, for better for worse.
Like what you're able to do with your platform is

(22:10):
like you're building things right, And maybe I guess like
I'm ashamed of who I am now or who I'm
going to be, and so that's kind of why I
like kind of keep things under wraps a little bit. Um,
I don't know. I guess I haven't really liked held
much too much deeper much into that. If you just
notice their Dean's really good at like quietly turning it
back on me for just a second. It's really great.

(22:31):
It's a really good skill set he has. But we're
not gonna let it happen today. Um, We're gonna take
a break here, and when we get back, I want
to talk to Dean. I want to start the beginning
how in the world, uh is Dean? Ungle who he is?
And then also how does he get on the show,
because it just doesn't make sense. You're gonna hear the
end of the podcast, UH an interview with Bob Dalton.

(22:52):
Bob Dalton, I both have started small businesses. UH. Part
of starting a small business is also hiring team around you. Actually,
when some he asks me, Okay, how do you make
a small business work, my response is always I never
make it work. It's the team we have that makes
this work. You want to surround yourself with the best people,
and that's why I use zip Recruiter. Hiring can be

(23:12):
a challenge, as Quotable co founder Gretchen Heabner discovered. Gretchen
needed to hire a game artist for her education tech company.
She knew it wouldn't be easy to find someone to
grow with her team. That's why she went to zip Recruiter.
Like Gretchen, Generous also uses zip Recruiter to help mind
the most talented of people. In fact, before Generous even started,

(23:34):
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Gretchen posted her job on zip recruiter, and she said
she was so impressed with how quickly she found qualified applicants.

(23:57):
She also uses zip recruiter screening questions to filter her
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n Zipp recruiter dot com slash ben Zipp recruiter the
smartest way to hire. Come back with Dean Angler. Dean,
let's start at the beginning. You're raised an Aspen, Colorado,
Yeah right, more Basalt, Colorado, but Aspens the nearest time
that everyone knows you know, close enough and and pretty

(25:00):
normal childhood. Yeah, I suppose talk about it, and that
is not it's not convincing. I don't know if I
know your childhood very well at all. Where do you
want to start with the childhood exactly? Let's started at seven?
Well I was six, Ben, Okay, it's a little backstory
for the listener out there. I can finde it in Ben,

(25:22):
a story that I have only dressed recently open and
started opening up about. Um. Actually not to long ago.
Ashley and Jared's wedding, I think was the first time
I told you about it. It's one of the best
we're gonna I'll help you here, though you tell yours,
I'll tell mine well. And so I was gonna say
that one of the reasons that I was able to
open up to Ben about this was because he has
obviously as warm and welcoming as he is. Not only
was he like receptive and empathetic, but he also had

(25:44):
a very similar story of his own to share back
with me, which only just helps us connect on a
deeper level. I think, right, I don't want to diminish
how great this podcast is gonna be. Getting to know you.
I have a feeling that this will be the segment
that gets the most response. My heart's beating a factor
that normally I thought about this story a lot, and
I thought about how if I ever decided to share

(26:04):
it publicly, how I would go about doing it. I
never thought that I would be sharing it on a podcast.
Let's do it. Um. So, I was bullied a lot
in high school and middle school for one very specific
read well, yeah, for one specific reason. Um. And I've
only just started sharing this story, probably within the past year,
so I would say December was the first time I

(26:25):
started staring sharing this story, so less than a year actually, um,
and some of my closest friends know about it. My
current girlfriend knows about it. Ben obviously knows about it.
Band's girlfriend knows about it. And you know what, I'm
just gonna share it anyways. I don't know if we
can curse on this one. Let's go ahead and bleep
that out. So. I was bullied a lot in middle

(26:45):
school and in high school because of an event that
happened to me when I was six years old. I
hurt myself in a way that's very specific to how
only a man can hurt himself. UM. And I didn't
have the courage to stand up for myself later on
in life to the people that would then bully me
forward that event. So it was first grade. It was recess.

(27:06):
I was. We had this like suspension bridge on the playground,
and on the sides of the sustension suspension bridge, obviously
we're like these ropes to hold the bridge in the air.
And one of the ropes came undone somehow throughout the
wear and terror of the of a normal day, and uh,
they were attached at the bottom by these little hooks

(27:28):
that would like hook onto the bridge. And so marks
marks already kind of get into it a little bit.
This is not even looking anymore. And so as a
six year old, curious, adventurous, excited, I put my foot
on the hook to like swing back and forth and
beat my chest like Tarzan swinging through the jungle. And uh,

(27:48):
sure enough, that hook was small, My foot was small,
didn't have very good grip. Slipped off. This bridge was
probably i want to say, seven ft in the air.
I was, you know, three ft tall. So it was
a tall bridge, and the hook, instead of finding anywhere
else to fall it, decided to go right it between
my legs, hook onto the thing that carries the two

(28:10):
things that define us as meant and ripped up just
about to just below the end of that other thing
that it literally ripped all the wa up to the
end of his penis, scrolled him to the end of
his penis, if we're using those words, shore from about
halfway on my ball sack to about three uh just
below the tip of my penis about six inches, So like,

(28:32):
you know, let's just say it was a big it
was a top. It's a big cut, uh yes. And
so obviously, as a six year old, I run to
the doctor. I'm like screaming, I'm crying. I have no
idea what to do. So I like hobble run all
the way up to the nurse and she goes, this
is way over my head. I gotta figure out what
to do with nurse. So she calls my mom, my mom.
I'm like laying in the nurse's office. My mom comes

(28:54):
and she's like, okay, well, we've gotta like bring you
to surgery. So I go to like the nearest surgeon
and they stitched me up. I think it was like
four you're so stitches and my penis from my scrolled
them to the up up the shaft to my penis
down to just blow the head um. Everything was fine
obviously as a six year old, so I don't remember
the pain too much. I remember like some of the
side effects, like having the gaza every every so often.
My mom had like take care of me, clean me,

(29:16):
make sure it was like disinfected um. And for the
longest time, I was like, this is the worst thing
that ever could have happened to me, Like I'm deformed,
I'm so abnormal. Everything was fine, Like my penis and
scrolled them are perfectly fine. I just got like kind
of a narlage scar down there, you know what I mean.
We were able to to urinate normally. Oh, I don't remember,
I think so I remember the catheter for an extended period. No,
I didn't definitely didn't need a catheter. I remember one

(29:36):
specific story. We were like I went on vacation somewhere
and this hotel had to pool, and I really wanted
to go to the pool, but obviously wasn't allowed in
the water because I had this open wound on my
on my testicles. And I remember like like hobbling running
down the hallway for a long time. My brother. I
don't know, it's just this this very distinct memory that
I have. But um, as kids do, they like to
obviously like create stories and start rumors. And what they

(29:58):
did was they kind of started this rumor that I
only had one testicle for a long long time and
it didn't really matter much. When I was an elementary
school or middle school at this rumor was going around
that I I had one testicle. But then when I got
to high school, when testicle has become an important thing, right,
the rumor became that I only had one testicle still
when I was in high school, and everyone like joked
about it like behind my back and something like very

(30:19):
rarely brought it up to my face, but it happened
a couple of times, and I was always like so
like ashamed and taking it. Like I couldn't defend myself
because I just wasn't confident enough to be like, I've
got two testicles, and I like everyone needs to know it,
you know what I mean? And so I was bullied
pretty heavily for that. And on top of that, I
had like a very attractive my sister is very attractive,
and they always like bullied me for that. Um and
then I like because of I don't know, if it

(30:41):
was because of the stitches that I got on my
scrolled him, or I had a couple of unique injuries
as well. But I walked really funny. And so everyone
in high school, well not everyone, like the upper classman
when I was playing football, they would always say that
I walked around, I had a build up my and
so because of these things, and he didn't, and so
I did not have a build um. And this was
a story that Ben and I bonded over because Ben,

(31:01):
I think has maybe shared on this podcast almost famous,
but he has a similar ish story. But I just
want to be clear, right, that's similar in the hook
to the genital yeah, not the second party. Oh and
also I think I might have shared this on the
Help I Suck, a dating podcast. But when I moved
to Los Angeles, one of the first things I did
was to get my potency checked. And what I said
was on the podcast the first time was that I

(31:23):
wanted to, you know, I just wanted to see how
I was doing down there, just out of curiosity. But
the reality of it is, I just wanted to know
if like the stitches or you know, the rusty hook
that just cut my penis open, maybe like inhibited my
ability to have children. Who knows, right, the long story short,
it didn't like it might. Everything's fine down there in
that sense, But that's always it was always just going
to send pictures out if anybody's like, yeah, send pics.

(31:45):
No that's not funny, it's about I can show you.
Well I won't, but I could. I can't. Got really excited.
Is it Is it that noticeable? No, it's not. And
no one you would, like of all the girlfriends I've
ever had, no one ever knew about it until I
finally just started telling, like talking about it a year ago, right, Um,
and yeah, I think like talking about it it's kind

(32:05):
of like released some of the power that has had
on me. The thing is like a lot of the
kids from high school with like some of my best
friends from high school still think that I probably only
have one testicle. Let's being a clear you have to
I have two testicles and they both function as testicles
for function. Um, I guess I can share this story.
Like the reason the first time I ever opened up
about the scar my penis uh is when Leslie and

(32:28):
I were dating. Leslie of course had a double mistech
to me, and she has scars on her breast because
of that, and I was like, look, you're not that
different than me. I've got a scar on my genitals
as well, and let me prove it to you. And
so that's how I started. That was like, the first
time I told the story to someone, what was her response?
She was like, why are you so freaked out about this? Like,
if your penis is perfectly normal, that's kind of weird
talking about my penis in the context of my ex girlfriends.

(32:53):
But that was but that was the first time I
ever shared the story with anyone, right, And so then
then I would like kind of get drunk with some
of my US friends and be like, hey, guys, I've
got a funny story to tell you about my penis.
And obviously they're like, yeah, tell us, this is going
to be great. Yeah. And it was I the first
ever go I think I don't have one, the one upset.
It's on the same level though, and I you were
the first one to ever rebuttal with the story of

(33:14):
your own, which I really appreciate, and I would I mean,
if you want to give us like a I would
love to. Yeah, that make you feel better. It's a
great segment we're gonna we're gonna skip all of Dean's
childhood just for this segment. But I guess the point
the point of that story was that that was something
that I was centrally bullied for for a lot as
a kid, Right, the thought that I had a test?

(33:34):
Isn't it funny that it's not funny? Isn't it odd
that some of those stories like that that we maybe
like suppress and hold deep and like laugh about now
a little bit are the ones that have affected us
a most as we've grown up. This story that I'm
about to share did suck my confidence away. Um, Okay,
So here it is. I'll tell a quick version later
on what we record a longer version of it. Um.

(33:55):
I was so freshman year of Heist school. Um, I
got called to be the starting quarterback. It's a big deal.
Two injuries. It wasn't because I was great. It was
two injuries. I got to step up and I had
a great first game. It was awesome. It was fun.
I thought, like the futures in football. Um, sophomore year,
I'm supposed to start again. Obviously, Um, the senior class

(34:18):
had graduated, and so I have a shot to to
be the starter. All of a sudden, I start feeling
like just a pain in my testicles, like a soreness,
a heat like just like it throbbed all the time.
So I'd reach down there and I was feeling just
in case there's something going on, and I felt a
clump like a bump, a clump of of something in
my testicles, and so I told my parents and they

(34:40):
took me to the doctor. I went to doctor, and
the doctor diagnosed me with something called a very coast seal.
Very co steal is something very common one in four
men and get it um. Not every I think it's
one and eight that need to get removed. But mine
was big enough that I need to get removed. But
a very coast seal is is it's a it's an
extra like vein in your sack that heats that blood
comes through I' sleep and it overheats your testicles and

(35:02):
so it would kill off your sperm. So if you
leave it for long enough, actually your sperm will stop
producing um and you'll become sterile. So you need to
get removed at some point soon. Well, mine started to
get so bad and so sore that I did it.
A couple of months before football season, thinking I'll get
this done, I'll get it cleared up and then I'll
be good to go for football. It's an easy surgery. Actually,
they just go in through your groin um arthur scopic.

(35:24):
They pull it out, cut it up, caught aorized the ends.
You don't even hardly know it happened, and within two
days you're back gone. So all that's going really well
for me. Um I go in for surgery, I come
back home. I remember this. I'm laying on my bed
in my house and all of a sudden, um, my

(35:45):
nuts just start hurting so bad after surgery. And at
the time I thought maybe it was because I just
had surgery in my testicles. That would make sense, right,
But they start hurting so bad and they start burning.
And I called my dad in. It's been about twenty
four hours in surgery, and I said, Dad, I need
you to look at these. It hurts so bad. And
so I lifted up my my sheets or whatever, and

(36:06):
he looked, and he's like, we need to get you
the doctor right now. My ball had swollen up to
the size of a grapefruit and we didn't know why.
So my my I had a massive testicle, and I
go into the doctor and this is what the doctor does.
Literally what happened was the vein that they're supposed to
caughter ice together did not cauter ice completely, and so

(36:26):
blood was just pumping directly every time my heart would
pump into my testicle. And so they had to take
a needle, a drainage needle, and shove it right into
my ball sack without numbing me because it was getting
so big so fast, and start draining the blood and
the liquid off of my ball sack like as I'm
wide awake and on non numbed, non numbed, well, my

(36:50):
swelling doesn't go down for a few days. And so
I go back to the high school and because of
the damage that's been done down there, and it was
a lot of damage, you know, they had to go
back in recaught her eyes. They had just stuck a
needle in my testicles. Like there's a lot of like
trauma to a place that's like really sensitive. It stayed swollen,
and I had to go back to high school and
I had to sit on ice in every class. I

(37:11):
couldn't missed more class and so I had to sit
on ice. So I had to carry an ice bag
around and sit on it where you can't hide that
in class, and so people would ask what's happened, what happened? Well,
it got to the point where it's like, screw it,
I'm just gonna start showing, like people my testicle. So
I showed the football team, like why I wasn't practicing?
And I showed the basketball team, like why I wasn't
going to the open gyms, like here, check out my

(37:32):
my testicles, and they did, and I'm not kidding, like
it's it's still to this day. Was something that was
brought up every time I was like, I had a
deformed test school that was the size of a grape
fruit for probably two weeks of my life in class.
So that's why Den and I related on that. So
at that point, So at that point, Dina and I

(37:55):
are sitting around having drinks at Ashley Jared's wedding going
I knew I liked you, and I knew there's a
reason why, but I got made fun of it for
it too, and it really did affect me and like,
I think a little bit of my confidence. I don't
know if you felt this way, but the fact that
every underlying story about I felt like everybody was talking
about behind my back. Oh yeah, absolutely. I thought I
was gonna be a virgin for my entire life. I

(38:16):
was like, I'm no one's everyone asleep with me? Well,
and we'll talk about later. That hasn't in the case.
And what's funny is I remember when I hooked up
with my my girlfriend for the first time, she spent
a lot of extra time down there, like examining, like
feeling around, making sure everything felt normal because she had
obviously heard the stories, and she was like, Okay, well,
I'm going to spend a little bit time, you know,

(38:36):
figuring it out. But I was like, I was like
I would wake up has like a thirteen I lost
my virgin any when I was sixteen. I think I
would wake up almost every single day before that happened.
I was like, I'm going to be a virgin forever.
No one's gonna want to like have sex with me.
This is the worst thing in the world. How could
this happen to me of all people? Like this sucks?
And then obviously I lost it, and then I began
to realize, like, there's nothing wrong with me. Yeah, I

(38:57):
just like I created this thing in my head where
like I don't know, I let this have some power
over me in a weird way. There's there's about four
or five health stories from my high school to days,
middle school in high school days that have like dramatically
affected my life. We'll talk about him at some other point.
Five there's some wild ones man, and we'll talk about
at some other point, but not today. But that that

(39:18):
is my best story with UM. Yeah, with with our nuts.
Um Hey, before d and I really want to dive
into your childhood and some of the parts that mean
the most. But before we do, let's take one break
and we'll come back. UM to reach out with Dean.
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Frame bridge dot com promo code almost famous. A lot
of screwed them talk today on the podcast. That's actually
a fantastic segment because it's it's so real, it's so true,
and it really did. It really did affect I just

(41:34):
I can I mean, honestly, ever since you told me
this story, I can't get over the idea that there's
a hook that just dolly ripped apart. You're under carriage, um,
dean with that, we're in a transition. It's there's no
easy way to do this. Um, what are your happiest
moments growing up? My happiest moments growing up? That's a
great question. Actually I don't know, um, I My childhood

(41:58):
started off kind of weird where we like lived in
RV Park up until I was about four or five
years old. Um, and I have like some distinct memories
from the r V that we're pretty wholesome. Like we
remember sitting on top of our ore well it was
a bus, right, so my dad like gutted us school
bus and put a bunch of beds into it, and
we lived in that for like four years. And I
just thinkly remember like one time we sat on top
of this bus and like watch some demolition derby while

(42:19):
we were eating oreos at night in some like town
in Oklahoma or something weird like that. Like that was
a good memory. UM. As a kid, like older wise,
I don't. I don't know. It's basically it was a
normal childhood, except aside from obviously all those other things,
you know what I mean. Like I remember we had
an easter and steamboat where like my mom had candy

(42:39):
around the apartment that we were staying in, like the
hotel room or something like that. I remember like spending
a lot of time with my brothers and sister like
looking for him, like having fun, and the snow was
falling outside and we're like this cool, exciting new place.
Just like small things like that, Um, but I don't
remember anything like specific. That's like that was like the
happiest moment of my life. You know. Do you think, um,
your family would look back on Dean as a kid
and say, we knew this who he is going to become?

(43:02):
What have I become? I guess is the question? Well,
you're living in a van, um. You you have a
lot of wonder lust. You're an artist, you do incredible videos, um,
and you've you can be kind of this like artist
wonder lust figure. And also I don't, I don't. I
can't say it any other better way, Like do really

(43:22):
well in reality television in some weird way. Yeah, what's
funny is the first time I went on the show,
my best friend was like, dude, you're gonna suck on
that show, like you're way too normal for it. And
I guess the more I think about it, the more
I'm like, I hope I'm not normal, you know what
I mean? Um? And what's funny about the living in
a van things? I'm actually in the majority in my
family for living in a van. My brother lives in
his truck, my father lives in an RV. My sister

(43:43):
and other brother both live in like home like an apartment.
Uh so three out of five of us live in
a car essentially, So I'm not wholly unique in my
family specifically. Um, I don't think that they would look
at me and think that at all, But like, I
don't know what interesting story about out my old Both
my brothers are older, but the second brother right. Uh.

(44:04):
None of us in our family are like really good
at communicating our feelings, especially as it comes to like
being brothers with each other, like how much we mean
to each other. Just a weird thing for brothers to do. Um.
On top of that, we're just weird people to begin with.
And I remember my brother's girlfriend and I were like
we were all going out, me, my brother, his girlfriend,
and my other brother and both my brothers went upstairs
because they forgot something. So it's just like me and
my brother's girlfriend were like waiting for them downstairs. I

(44:26):
remember she said something to me. She was like, Ross,
uh the other day told me how special you are?
And he was like, he told me that he that
Dean possesses all of my good qualities and none of
my bad qualities. And I was like, wow, I would
never expect Ross to say that, Like he would never
say that to me, just me and him talking, you
know what I mean. So it was like a cool
third party way to like find out that I don't know,

(44:48):
my brother's thought highly of me, which I've never really thought.
I would never think they thought lowly of me, you
know what I mean. But like it was just like
it's an interesting thing to hear that I really appreciated um.
But no, I mean, I don't think anyone would ever
expect or have suspected this. I was always kind of
this weird black sheep, where like I was the only
member of my family to have like an office job
as a recruiter, like I I set in an office

(45:08):
for at a desk for for you to fIF two
hours a week, and all my other brothers are like
your siblings are like you know my sister's hairstyle as
my brother is a waiter, My other brother is a carpenter,
My father is a carpenter. So it's like, I don't
know why I felt like this need to kind of
have like a more of a normal life at first. Um,
obviously reality tv TV kind of derailed that normalcy a
little bit, but uh, yeah, I don't know if it

(45:31):
if childhood wasn't full of like the happiest memories and
what are some of the hardest Uh, childhood was not
full of that? Well, obviously that the story of my
balls is not the best story. You had to bring
it back. Um, when I was ten, my best friend
got hit by a truck. That was like the first
experience of trauma that I've like I was kind of

(45:51):
had to deal with. He was my best friend. His
name was Hunter Holly Scott. Uh. He and I shared
a birthday April seventeenth, nine. And you know when you're
that age, like that's like a big deal. It's like
it's like enough of a reason to become best friends
with someone. And we were neighbors. We lived pretty close
to each other, so we spent a lot of time together.
But yeah, we were best friends. And then one summer
we were both like riding our bicycles to the market

(46:13):
and we had picked up like some drinks and some
snacks and we were riding back. And as I was riding,
we were riding back, he was like maybe ten feet
in front of me, and he lost his balance and
he fell over into the street. And as he fell
over into the street, truck came and ran him over,
like ran his head over. It was actually, it was
pretty pretty, uh pretty graphic. So that was my first
first Prussian with trauma, right when I was ten years old.
And I actually remember funny enough to to kind of

(46:33):
bring this back to what we were talking about earlier.
As I was sitting there as a ten year old
on the side of the road, like my best friend's
brains were basically spilled out into the street. At this point,
they had thrown tarp over it. Um they were like
trying to contact both of our parents. But I remember
I was sitting there like like the there's like a
crowd starting to gather from like the cold Desac because
it was like, you know, pretty close knit community, and
they all that come around me and they're like are
you okay? Are you okay? And I remember crying, and

(46:55):
I remember the only reason that I was crying because
it was because I felt like I was expected to
be crying. Like I felt like people thought they were
like Deans should be crying right now. So I was like,
I'm gonna cry, like I'm gonna make it. But then
I remember thinking to myself, I was like, there's nothing
I can do about this situation, so what's the point
of crying, you know what I mean? But I was
like performing, right I was like I was performative crying.
I was like, I think I'm supposed to be sad here,

(47:17):
so I'm gonna cry. And I was sad, of course,
but like I felt like I wasn't necessarily visually as
upset until I was like, oh, like I probably should
be crying right now, you know what I mean? Um,
how do you how do you process that? As a
ten year old? I don't think I ever really did,
to be perfectly honest, I remember my parents were super
like obviously they were there. My mom was like super supportive.
She was like I'll do like whatever I need to

(47:37):
do to make this better for you. Um. And then
they were like, we're gonna like set you up in therapy.
So I went to therapy a couple of times, but
I like hated it. Um. And so they I was like,
I asked him. I was like, I don't. I can't
do therapy anymore, Like pull me out of therapy. I
think it did like two sessions, um. And then it's
kind of like I just kind of buried it and
forgot about it for a long time. Uh, and like
I still don't really think about it often. Like you know,

(47:58):
I was ten years old, so my memory is like
super strong from those times. I remember who's my best friend,
and I remember like obviously the visual of it happening.
But what's funny is then that fast forward ten well,
I guess twelve years when I was twenty two, my
best friend overdosed. He was found dead in a bathtub. Uh,
the day that we were supposed to drive to Connecticut together.

(48:19):
And as an adult, like obviously I had maybe like
matured a little bit grown process my emotions more. That
death hit me a lot harder than I think even
like the death of my mother because I was just
like older and I just I guess uh felt things
more deeply, and so that one was pretty challenging. We
had like a like a like a wake or whatever.

(48:39):
We all got together to to like commemorate our friend Alex,
and I remember I like give I like went up
there to give a speech in front of like thirty
of our friends, and I like broke down and started
like crying, like uncontrollably, which is pretty uncommon for me,
especially as it pertains that kind of trauma. Like I
remember at Hunter's funeral, I was like running back up
and forth, like giving speeches about some great memories that

(49:01):
Hunter and I had together, and I was like smiling
and laughing and having fun with it because like I
was remembering the good times, right. But then with Alex,
like I wasn't able to do that, and I just
kind of like broke down and like couldn't even get
words that sort of thing. But with my mom it
was a little bit different, Like obviously, like my family
was super close with her, but we didn't have like
it wasn't like I was like giving speeches to my

(49:22):
like not speeches, but like talking to my friends about things.
It was kind of more just like me processing everything internally.
Um So, like the tath at ten with Hunter was hard,
but in the death that fifteen for my mom was
super harder than the death at twenty two for Alex
was like probably the hardest, at least on the surface,
like at least like emotionally. Obviously the death of my
mom was probably the most influential. But I don't know.

(49:44):
Death definitely has um a massive impact in all of
our lives, but especially yours. Um at three separate segments,
at three separate pivotal years of your life. It's weird
that it came at like very very different times, right,
I don't know how how was that effected you? I
don't know, I really think about it. I think it

(50:05):
Remember when I said earlier, like I think I struggle
with empathy because I just like, I know that I've
been through a lot of those bad things. And even
when I was, like I said, when I was ten
years old, I was sitting there, I was like, why
am I crying? There's no point for me to cry
because I can't change anything. So like when I see
something bad happen, or when something comes to me and
they're like, hey, this happened, and I'm really sad. I
can be like, Okay, well I can help you do this,

(50:25):
and I want to help you through this. UM, But
in the back of my head the entire time, I'm thinking, like,
just like get over it, because like it's done with
and the only thing that you can now control is
your reaction to it, and like your state of mind
and your well being moving forward. So there's no point
really dwelling on those negative things that happened in the past.
And I go back and forth onto whether or not
that's like a good thing or not. UM, like to

(50:46):
be able to like look back and cry, Like sometimes
I'll look back on my mom's passing and like cry
a little bit and just like be like I feel
good after like a nice cry, you know what I mean. UM,
But I think like overall, I don't try to let
it affect me too much. And like my advice for people,
as like callous as it might sound, is just to
be like, yeah, just like I think happier thoughts, you

(51:09):
know what I mean. No, I don't, UM, because I
don't think that's always an option, but it is. Though
that's kind of the point is like that's really the
only option is to deal with things like yeah you can, ah,
you can like dwell on it and like let it
affect you negatively for the longest time, but at the

(51:29):
end of the day, like that's just time wasted dealing
with this negative thoughts unless you're actually growing from the thoughts,
right unless you're actually like sitting down and processing things
and they're being like, Okay, like this sucked. Um, I'm
gonna remember like all the positive times and all the
good memories and try to like make them proud through
my life moving forward. But if you're like having consistent
negative thoughts about something like that, then the only thing

(51:50):
you really can do is be like, Okay, well, I'm
just gonna change it around and be positive about it,
you know what I mean. I would imagine what I'm
thinking through right now is though when you duly and
and I get Hunter put a huge roll in your life,
but you were ten and like life at tin is
is a lot about having fun and yeah it's pretty simple.
But as you lose your mother and then Alex, there's

(52:10):
huge pieces of your life that now are being taken
it's not so simple. And there there is a there's
a value that they held in your life that is
now gone. How do you how do you look at
the how do you replace those things? Do you replace them?
I don't think you replace them. I think that Uh.
Malcolm Gladwell obviously is a great author. I remember I
can't remember which book it was that he wrote. I

(52:31):
think it was Tipping Point perhaps, but he said something
along the lines of no child is aware of how
unique their situation is. And because every child thinks that
their childhood is exactly like everyone else's, you know what
it means. So like when I'm ten, I think, like
everyone else is going through the same stuff I'm going
through in my situation isn't unique. When I'm fifteen, I
think the same thing. I think, like my life is
just my life and it's not like wholely unique in

(52:52):
any sort of way. Um, but yeah, you're right. I
was obviously much more affected practically speaking, by the death
of my mom than I was by obviously Hunter or Alex.
I kind of like turned the world upside down in
a lot of ways. But but again I was just
like dealing with it, like you haven't really no choice
but to just put it all aside and figure it

(53:12):
out as you go, you know, yeah, and I and
I think though the those moments, though, dinare like the
ones that always feel like they they hit the hardest,
they're the hardest to process, but they're there the things
that connect us the most. So there's a lot of
people out there listening that have have obviously related with
you because of the deaths of friends or close family members,

(53:36):
and I think your story is one that they listened
to and and sit on. I would imagine anxiously going
how do you do it? Like, how do you continue
to move forward in the midst of great pain and
great sorrow? And to those people that are saying that
and looking at you, is that that figure to help
them respond? What would you say? Well, I just don't

(53:58):
think you really have much of another option. It's like,
if you're not moving forward, then you're standing still and
moving backwards. And it's like, well, do you want to
look back and be like, Okay, well I just wasted
all that time feeling sorry for myself, feeling sorry for
the people around me, feeling sorry for my situation. Or
did I use that time to figure it out and
kind of grow from it? And it's obviously it's easier
said than done. Um, they were like some pretty dark

(54:19):
times when I was like between fifteen and eighteen, I
like basically lived by myself, Like my dad kicks my
brothers out of the house, and then he was gone
all the time, either traveling for work or visiting his
I think his mom was sick in New Jersey other time. Um,
And so I spent a lot of time alone and
like a house made for six people, right, which is
just a weird it's a weird, eerie situation. Um, But

(54:40):
I never felt like, I don't know, it never felt
like a challenge, you know what I mean, because it
just felt it was just what was. And so that's
what I'm saying. I struggle with empathy where it's it's
like I can't really put myself in those shoes because
I just felt I've always felt like whatever you're given
is like the hand that you're supposed to be playing,
and because of that, like you just kind to find
a way to make that handle winning hand, you know

(55:02):
what I mean. Do you ever feel resentment then towards
to myself life? I mean, if if you're sitting there
and you look around, you go I've I mean, I
had a ten years old had to witness my best
friend get him on the set of Road. I've lost
my mother at a young age, and at twenty two,
I lost my best friend. I can move forward, but
what I would feel, and this maybe is just me,

(55:23):
is a resentment. I would still move forward, that can happen,
but I would carry on this this kind of like
chip on my shoulder saying this isn't fair. Um. I
think the death of my mom really really brought that
side out of me where I was like, this is
both like this doesn't make sense, this isn't fair. Um.
The Testical story was a big one too. I was like,

(55:44):
this doesn't make it, Like why me? Why me? Of
all people was I chosen? It's a funny story, but
like really did hurt, Like you know, yeah, Like emotionally,
I thought my life was like transformed in a negative
way forever, more so than because I was young, I
didn't know any better. Um, but with my mom too,
It's it's tough losing a mother or a parent, especially

(56:04):
obviously losing anyone is difficult. But like a lot of
my friends that I was like super super close with
in high school, like they all had families that were
like super tight and they were always super supportive there,
like if you ever need anything, like you can come
to us and ask for it. But that was I
think that's kind of a reason why I kind of
didn't really ever feel the need to share my story
post college or anything like that, like an adulthood was because, uh,

(56:26):
no one really understands until they experience it. And so
my friends, when I the people I was friends within college,
I'm sorry, in high school, they all had like very
well off families. Everyone was wealthy, everyone was happily married.
They didn't really deal with much adversity in their lives,
and so I did. I didn't feel comfortable sharing my
story with those people because they didn't they didn't get it,
you know what I mean. Um, And so I kind

(56:48):
of just swept it under the rug and and kind
of kept quiet about it for a long time until
obviously Bachelorrette when I shared it with However, many people
watched the Bachelorrette. Um, but yeah, and it wasn't is
the story of the your mom that was brought out.
There's this master's storyline that I know you don't like,
but but your dad was also highlighted then because there's

(57:09):
been this disconnect then that was at least portrayed during
the show there. Well, what's funny about the my old
Dad situation is it's like I've never really put myself
in his shoes. I've never really considered what it was
like to lose your wife at fifty years old. He's
never cooked a meal in his life for anyone, Like,
he's never had to take care of anyone. He just

(57:29):
made money and like funded our family for my mom
to take care of us. Right, So it's not like
he knew any better than to do what he did,
which was basically disconnected, and do what he thought was best,
and like he even asked him now he he doesn't
think he did anything wrong, and I think he really
believes that I didn't do anything wrong. But from my perspective,
he did everything wrong. But that doesn't make him. That
doesn't make what he did wrong. You know, he was
just dealing with it the only way that he really

(57:50):
knew how. And that's only something that I've kind of
come around on recently where it's like I can't really
blame the guy for for bailing out when I was
fifteen or whatever, because that was like his way of
dealing with his dramatic loss of his wife that he's
been married to for the past thirty years. Um sure,
I always kind of considered like the loss of my
mom to be like this weird everything obviously, but like

(58:13):
I always kind of wish that it brought our family
closer together rather than like it was kind of acting
like a bomb that like put us put us all
further apart um. And with my dad specifically, like he
him and I had this this weird h dynamic on
the show. And I remember being in high school and
going to school every day, and like I got in
trouble a lot. I was like always I was like
the one obviously responsible for getting myself to school, which

(58:34):
means I was late basically every single day, which means
I was in detention and in suspension, etcetera all the time.
I remember a couple of times the principle would pull
me aside and be like, what's the deal, Like should
we get your dad in here to like talk about this,
And I remember always being like, no, I hate my father.
I never want to be like him, don't even talk
to him, Like I don't even want to be part
of this conversation, UM, and I was just like so

(58:54):
vehemently like my dad sucks. I hate him so much.
I hate him so much. And eventually, like the principle
would be like okay, like I won't tell my I
won't tell your father. Eventually obviously they tell my father,
and it just like kind of continue to drive a
wedge between us. And there were like moments where we
were like put things aside bygones, be bygones, Like my
father drove me out to my university on to like

(59:15):
you know, what is it like visiting weekend where you
go check out and makeu you want to go to
school there. So like we like had salvage the relationship
like weirdly a couple of times, but ultimately ended up
falling back apart. I think I think it's just like
the Angler curse where we can't really stay communicative with
each other and we don't really stay in touch with people. Um,
and then through high school like or through I'm sorry,
through college, we weren't never really close and then uh,

(59:38):
we like when I moved to l A. I saw
him for a couple of days before I moved to
Los Angeles. Two years later, I go on the show,
and I didn't really talked to him since seeing him
on my way from Denver to l A like stopped
by for like a day and I hung out with him.
But then since then, like it was two and a
half years between that and going on The Bachelorette, hadn't
talked to him, hadn't seen him whatever. And I knew
going into that hometown that he was going to act

(59:58):
like everything was like hunky door, everything was like okay, um.
And I was like so deep in my own two
where I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna
call him out for it right now on national television,
which in hindsight probably wasn't the best idea, but I
was just like I didn't like that necessarily the facade
that was being put on that like we were like
a loving family that we all looked out for each
other and that we all like we're just super tighten it,

(01:00:20):
because we weren't. And then the second I saw him
like try to pretend that we were, I was like,
you know what, I'm just gonna like lean into this
and be like this is just isn't right. Um. And
so yeah, that that whole experience on the show what's
funny is like my dad loves the experience on the show,
you know, Like he he'll even be like, yeah, dude,
you were bole to me on the show, but it
was the best experience of my life. Why he he's

(01:00:42):
an narcissist, just like just like me, just like my
brother is just like my sister. He he loves the
attention that the show gave him for for however much
time it gave it to him, Um, good or bad.
Like he just like loved being in the spotlight quote
unquote for that short amount of time. Ah. I would
like to think that I don't reach that level of narcissism.
I hope I don't. But yeah, he's he's got a

(01:01:04):
funny mentality on it. And like we've obviously like prepared
our relationship to some extent between then and now, like
he helped me rebuild my van and build out the
living quarters of it a little bit. I like see
him maybe like one once or twice twice a year
to two or three times a year now. Um, and
there's not really any love loss. Like he's he's getting older,

(01:01:26):
and I know that at some point he's gonna die
before I die, hopefully, Like that's how it works. You
obviously want your kids to outlive your parents. Um, and
I I don't want to live with the regret of
not having a better relationship with my father after it's
no longer to be had. Like after I can't you know,
salvage anything. So uh, I go back and forth and
like I try to make it work. And you know,
obviously he lives his life. I live my life, and

(01:01:48):
whenever we get together, it's like him kind of catching
me up on all of his things and him talking
the whole time, and it's great and we like to
see each other. But then it's just like in a
reminder of like Okay, ye'll see again in six more
months or two more months or however long it is.
Just it's just like, you know, obviously people kind of
grew apart. I guess would there have been an option
to bring it, to bring the family together, like because
of the passing of your mom, was there ever a

(01:02:10):
pivotal point where it did kind of break the family apart? Um? Well,
I think that's just actual passing of it. So my
brothers and my father all but it heads constantly. My
dad was like an alcoholic for a long time. He's
since been sober for I think like ten years or
something like that, but for a long time he drank
a lot, and I think that like tensions were high
because you know, my brothers were like maybe like eighteen

(01:02:30):
to three or twenty four living in the house, and
my dad was like, you guys need to move out,
like get your own place, figure out, get your life
together sort of thing. Um, And that like kind of
created some tenacity between the three of them, more so
one of my brothers and the other. But uh, that
was kind of a challenging thing too, because it's like
one of my brothers was like my best friend and

(01:02:50):
like he you know, I like respected him a lot,
I liked him a lot, and then to see him
and my father getting such heated arguments to each other,
I was like, well, I love my brother and he's
like he's my role models and really and if he's
fighting my dad, then I should probably fight my dad too,
And like, you know, it's just kind of one of
those things where it's like a slippery slope or like
a snowball effect where things just kind of got progressively
worse for no one, and no one was at fault

(01:03:12):
for any of it, you know what I mean, They're
just one of those weird things. I hear all of this,
and one of the you know we we mentioned at
the beginning of the podcast, one of the criticisms that
you um that you get the most, that you're not
unfamiliar with is Dean's got to grow up. Yeah. You
know what's really interesting after I hear all this is
it made sense to me is you you grew up
at a really young age, and I wonder if you

(01:03:33):
met and there's no this is gonna be a weak statement,
but you mastered adulthood at such a young age that
now you can play around with it a little bit.
Uh may perhaps I like to think that I'm never
gonna grow up, though honestly, I guess I see. I
see your point. Like I had to grow up, support
myself whatever from fifteen until now. I had to grow
up maybe a little earlier. But also it's like I

(01:03:55):
don't ever really want to lose like that child like
spark that I think that we all kind of look
back and be like, thing, I wish I was like that,
But you built in the you built in the necessities
to at least making your life function at such a
young age that now you know them so clearly that
you like that, you may that you you you hold
you fight hard to hold onto that childlike spark because

(01:04:17):
a lot of your childhood was taken from you. I
can understand that makes sense, I will say one of
the metapsychologist. I don't. I'm not like diagnosing that. I'm
just saying I'm hearing this. I'm saying it ten years old.
If I had to put myself in a position of
seeing my friend get hit on the side of road
and then lose my mom a few years later, and
then at twenty two, kind of like I would say
my twenty early twenties were like late teens. Early twenties

(01:04:40):
were the years that like literally had If I would
have experienced pain during that time, like real pain, I
don't think I would have processed it, because it felt
like a year's almost wasted of just bliss in college
and euphoria. Like if those things happen to be like
they happened to you, and they dramatically changed your course

(01:05:01):
leading up to who we know today, how old are
you know you're not too far removed from those years,
I will say one of the one of the most
challenging things, well, not the most challenging things, but like
I said, I grew up with a lot of kids
who had like well to do families a basically like

(01:05:22):
security blankets, security nets, right, I guess I always kind
of looked around at them too and resented them in
a sense where I was like, look, if you fail
miserably at whatever you want to do, like reach for
the stars, you fail, you have them to lean on
or like, they'll support you, they'll put you up, they'll
like bring you back into their home and take care
of you. If I do that, I'm gonna be living
on the streets because I don't have anywhere to go
other than wherever I can put myself, you know what

(01:05:44):
I mean. And so for the longest time, I was
always like, I don't have I don't I don't have
a safety net. I don't have anything to do unless
I do it now and figure it out. And so
I think that's maybe kind of what you're getting at.
Where I was like, I was, everything was so on
me for the longest time, where now I guess I
have the relity to be like, Okay, I can kind
of do whatever I want, and so I'm gonna do that.
You know, I completely get it, and I've never thought

(01:06:06):
about that with you, Dean until now. I'm never half Um.
It's a good psychoanalysis. It's just it's the part of
this podcast that I enjoy the most because getting down
and hearing your story. UM. I don't know if it
allows me things to make sense, because afterwards, we're gonna
walk out of here and we're gonna still struggle, and

(01:06:26):
I'm gonna get upset with you because you do lack
in your communication now and then, and I don't hear
from you for days, um, which I still don't know why. Um.
I'm not gonna blame it on the Angler curse. But
that's the thing. I have no excuses for that type
of stuff now, so I would never be like, oh,
I'm this way because of I don't know genetics or
because of the traumatic experience that I had as a kid.
I have no excuse to not be communicative with you

(01:06:47):
other than you don't like me, ben Um. But all
of it makes sense, which is why this podcast means
so much for me. I'm glad I'm doing it with you, Uh, Dean.
I want to get into what led you to be
on The bachelorret but before we do, we're gonna take
a break. Before we come back with Dean. I'm gonna

(01:07:13):
take a second. At the end of the podcast, you're
gonna hear a segment with one of my buddies, Bob Dalton,
talking about sackcloth and ashes. Uh blanket company giving blankets
to um people without homes all across the US. UH.
Their partnership with my company generous. So make sure you
tune in and wait to the end of the podcast
conversation with myself and Bob Dalton. But until that conversation,

(01:07:35):
I am here with Dean Ungler, fan favorite from The
Bachelor at Bachelor in Paradise two times over and Bachelor
Winner Games. We've we've caught up with Dean so far,
but now we're getting into this stuff that listeners, you're
familiar with Dean. How do you end up on the show? Uh?

(01:07:55):
But how did you end up on the show? Why
do you turn this on me? I was signed up
through a friend and then I just went through it
with myself and I kept doing the process. After they
sent in my first like application, I just kept did
a video and I did all that stuff the normal way.
To do it. Um, well, I guess we can go
back to your season of the Bachelor. So we were

(01:08:17):
watching your season while we weren't watching I've never really
watched the Shop before going on it? Did you? Um?
Off and on? Yeah, my mom and I spent time
when I would be home. We loved watching it together.
But when I was away at like I wouldn't, it
was just like my thing with her, which is great.
That's a nice little tradition to have. So what one
of my best friends loved the show. It was always

(01:08:39):
kind of this thing that we ragged on him for.
He would watched it by himself. You know, he doesn't
like doing things alone, so sometimes he would like rope
and coaxes coaxes friends into watching it with him. I
remember one time he made me watch Caitlin Bristow's season.
Funny enough, I think it was with her one on Nick.
I hadn't watched it again. Um. He is the one

(01:09:00):
that I moved to Los Angeles with. So your season
was on and I remember he made me watch a
couple episodes of your season with you, and I was like, Wow, man,
that Kaylea Quinn girl. There's something about her that I
just like really adore and admire UM. And so I
was working one day downtown Los Angeles and my friends
were like, dude, there's a casting call and like Rancho

(01:09:21):
Cucamonga like an hour and a half away, and I
didn't have a car at the time, and I was like,
I think Kayla was like just maybe announced as the bachelorette.
And I was like I gotta go, like she's my girl.
I want to figure this out. Ended up obviously not going,
and then Judge got announce the next day anyway, so
it wasn't a big deal. UM put that to bed
for like a year or something like that. And then
a year later, like I'm at work again and that

(01:09:43):
same friend of mine calls me and he goes, Dean,
I'm gonna do something, and I want you to do
I wanted to follow through with it no matter what
it is, and what that something was was. He got
me on a phone call with Amy, the producer of
this podcast we had uh core so much, who has
a great relationship with this I was executive producer, and
so Amy and I talked on the phone for like
an hour and a half and she was like, I

(01:10:04):
love I love your story. I love everything about this.
Let's figure this out, let's try to get you on.
And then so the next day I received a call
from one another executive producer. Talked to her for like
an hour and a half, and she goes, oh my gosh,
like this, you're You're fantastic. Let's get you streamlined it.
This is like in February of the show films in March.
Um and I fortunately lived local in Los Angeles, and
so they're like coming into these uh, coming to the

(01:10:26):
office meet. Some of the producers will give you like
the psych test, we'll give you the physical, we'll give
you the background check. But we need to do it
as quickly as possible because the show starts filming in
like a couple of weeks. Um and I was at
a point in my life where I was single. My
girlfriend and I had broken up a few months prior.
We were still on like friendly terms, but obviously it
wasn't really gonna amount to anything. Um And so I

(01:10:48):
was like, you know what, why not? Like I don't
really think I'm gonna go on the show, don't. I don't.
I think they'll find a way to not want me
on the show. So I did everything the things started
like progressing, and they were like every time you get
two dollar step in the process, You're like, is this
for real? I don't I know. Um. Everything happened so
fast and so eventually they were like, yeah, we like
we want you. March thirteenth is your first day filming. Um.
And there's like March five when they told me this

(01:11:09):
or something like that, and I go like, are you
sure like me? Is this really like the real Bachelorette?
So it's all, like, it is very confusing, especially if
for someone that's like not like I don't watch the
show very often, but I knew about it. I watched
like a couple episodes of Jojo season the day before
going on to like kind of get an understanding for
it a little bit more. Uh. But if I just

(01:11:29):
like kind of did everything that they told me to do,
and every time I went in and talk to them,
they're like, yeah, you're great, we think you're fantastic. We
would love to have you on, And every time I
was like, really, are you sure like me? Um? And
then I went on and yeah, I think pretty pretty
public knowledge. I packed to be on the show for
like I expected to be gone night one back to
like a small duffel bag backpack. Uh, two suits, and

(01:11:52):
I just like I thought I was gonna go home.
I didn't tell any of my friends until like three
of my best friends obviously the one that nominated me, uh,
one of my roommates. And then like the day before
I left, were having like a barbecue and I told
my guy friends, was like, yeah, I'm going on the
Bachelorette tomorrow, and no one else knew. And then, funny enough,
actually the first day that I was on the Bachelorette

(01:12:13):
was the live show with Rachel and so like everyone
knew right away that I was on the show, but
I didn't have my phone for the next two and
a half months, so I couldn't like really talk to
anyone about it. But yeah, that's how it happened. My
friend just nominated me through Amy funny enough, and uh,
it turned into be a much bigger thing than I
ever expected it to be. Amy Sugman, who he's talking about,
who helped him also start his new career in podcasting
with the help I Suck at Dating podcast. Uh, So,

(01:12:36):
go to your um wherever you listen to I Heeart podcast, Spotify,
iHeart dot Com podcast, iTunes, I don't know, and and
that podcast help I Suck at Dating is fitting? Uh,
because of your time on the Bachelorette and Bachelor in Paradise,
your time on the Bachelotte, I would say we talked
a lot about kind of the pivotal moments of it.

(01:12:57):
Um your time with Rachel did end after hometowns um
any residual consequences good or bad from that season in
the Batcherette? Do you still have a relationship with Rachel Um? Well,
first and foremost, I was shocked. I got sent home
and I did I thought I was. I was like,
because I saw a couple of my good friends at
my hometown. They didn't air any of it, unfortunately, but
I gotta hang out with him after like the night

(01:13:19):
portion of my family a little bit. It was like
an emotional time, so like they like, let me I
have a couple of drinks with my friends, like decompress
and unlined a little bit, and I was like talking
to them, I was like, you, guys, I think she's
gonna choose me, Like I'm pretty sure I'm the one,
And they're like, wow, man, that's crazy. And like three
days later I texted them I was yeah, because I'm
not the one. Were you ready to get engaged Rachel? Um?
I think at the time I will. I don't know.

(01:13:41):
In hindsight, it's easy to say no that I wasn't
ready to get in good, but it's it's hard to
put myself back in that situation and say one way
or the other whether I was or not. Obviously Rachel
made the right choice. She's she's married to the level
life Brian. So it's weird even like put myself back
in that situation at all. Um, But do I have
a relationship with Rachel now? Not really like she obviously
leads her life and of my life. Um gee, yeah,

(01:14:03):
I don't know what was the next question that was it?
Do you still have any like any any residual things
fro the Bachelor? I mean, I feel like your time
of the Bachelotte ended, and it's really we know you
best through your time on Bachelor in Paradise, in Bachelor
Order game more well, more well defined and known for
my time in Bachelor Paradise. And I will say my
time on Bachelotte, I mean it went overarchingly incredibly well,

(01:14:24):
like I was with Peter Krauss. You know, a fan favorite.
There were really no negative things that were said about me,
which was like and all honestly a bad first impression.
Like it sucks that the first taste of like publicity
that I've ever experienced my life was so overwhelmingly positive,
because then that set me up to be so crushed
by any negative publicity that I would received later on,
which I obviously inevera believed did. Um. So my tagline

(01:14:48):
was the perfect bin you literally can't set yourself up
for I get it, any more failure than that. The
perfect band. Well, you are a perfect tense. I guess
that makes sense. I wonder what mine would have been,
you think, m hm, Because I didn't. I didn't live
a vent at the time. I was like a normal
guy at the time. I mean you had yeah you
still to this day you you have an aura and

(01:15:09):
a uniqueness about you that I think would have added
some great taglines. And even then, people like you you
have the movie star thing going for you. I don't
know what that means, but I appreciate it. I think
it's Yeah, it's a huge compliment. Yea imilia at least
minute as it so like they talked to me about
Bachelor for for a hot minute, Actually, would you've done it? Yes,
I said I would. I absolutely would never not like
refuse that opportunity. I think I talked to you actually

(01:15:30):
about a little bit, because we were talking about like
money and stuff like that, and I just wanted to
make sure I was getting a fair value for whatever
the role entailed. Um, And when I met with thee
I never met with like Flys or any of them,
but I met with like a couple of the executives
for like m z K, the production team that makes
The Bachelor, and I obviously met with the executive producers
of the show like a Lot and Bennett and all

(01:15:51):
kind of stuff. And I'm prettyure this is all fair
to share. I don't really see why it wouldn't be.
But we were talking and this is a post Bachelor
in Paradise filming pre airing, so they knew that things
weren't gonna go look good for me. Um, But they
they I think they sense that, like Peter, something wasn't
gonna happen with him. W Obviously you in nevatively fell through.
I don't know exactly why, but um, they were talking

(01:16:12):
to me about it and they were like, yeah, how
do you feel about this, And I was like, well,
I don't know if I believe in the institution of
marriage as much as I as you need me to.
I definitely don't believe in the idea of a diamond
engagement ring. Um. I don't want my family to be
a part of it at all, because I saw how
you guys like made it a big ordeal and I
know that they would like Dean and Dean's father meet

(01:16:32):
again sort of thing like that would have been a
central storyline. I didn't want that, um. And I said
all these things, like to the executive producers and like
the studio heads, and they were like, well, that's not
really what we want to hear. It just isn't gonna work.
You don't like what the concepts about. You're not into
the symbolic ring that is makes the show, and you
don't we don't. You don't want to be part of

(01:16:53):
the main storyline that we want you Yeah, yeah, not cool. Um.
But they're still like it's funny because they have a
good way of making you feel like you're still like
the guy, you know what I mean. Like they still
I still after leaving every meeting, I was still like, Wow,
that went really well, yeah, you don't doubt it. They
they have mastered the art of human They have to

(01:17:14):
direct communicate and get people to where they want. And honestly,
like I didn't want to be the Bachelor, but I
would never have said note to the opportunity, no you can't.
And I mean, you know, today, the Bachelor holds very
little role in my life. I mean I still get
asked about it every day and I still do a
podcast that is about the bat Like, so from the

(01:17:35):
outside looking in, it holds a tremendous role in my life.
For my day to day life, it holds very little. Right.
I have a girlfriend that is not at all associated
with it. She doesn't even know a lot about the show. Um.
I live in Denver that with with nobody that's from
the Bachelor around me, and I haven't gone to a
Bachelor event in years, Like they're I'm very disconnected at
this point. Um, But I don't regret a second of

(01:17:59):
it because of the people I've met working on the
show and outside of the show. And if I feel
like and for you too, and tell me if I'm wrong,
It's helped us live out our our biggest passions. Absolutely,
I'm incredibly grateful for the time that I had on
the show and the things that it's allowed me to

(01:18:20):
be able to do. I remember like being a kid
when I was in middle school, thinking things like, man,
one day, I just really want to skydive, or like
I want to scoop it, I want to learn how
to fly, or I want to travel to Egypt, like
all these things that I've always wanted to do since
the super young age, but I never had the ability
to because I was making forty dollars a year, working
fifty hours a week, living in Los Angeles, spending two
thousand dollars a month on rent. It's just like there
was no way to save money. And the Bachelor in

(01:18:43):
it's some weird like in a way that I initially
never expected it to gave me, like the time to
do things I gotta quit my job, the financial freedom
to do got the places I wanted to go, and
like the publicity you're notoriety to. I don't want to
say be given things like to be to have doors
open for you to go places that you never really
would expected to be able to go, You know what

(01:19:04):
I mean. I want to take a second here and
pause because I'm I'm sensing when we get to this
point in the podcast, Um, everything leading up to this,
this conversation about the Bachelor feels so good and real,
and then the Bachelor hits and almost like I feel
like it's it's a little bit weak, It's a little

(01:19:25):
bit more shallow than what I'd want to do with you.
But I think there is this and what we're talking
about here and like we're saying, is the Bachelor. Let's
legitimize a little bit. The Bachelor has played a huge
role in your life, like it or not, and it's
also allowed you to do and be a fuller version
than of yourself than you ever dreamed of. So it
is important for us to talk about The Bachelor because

(01:19:47):
these things have helped define you for now how many years?
How long has it been since you been on the
show and half I think two and a half years
of your life in your mid twenties. The Bachelor has
been a part of it. Leading up to this. After
Rachel SE's in The Bachelor, we found you in Bachelor
in Paradise, Bachelor in Paradise this time, Bachelor in Paradise
helped lead to uh, you now having the help I

(01:20:08):
Second Dating Podcast, And I want to know why, Dean,
your time on Bachelor Paradise was not great, not the
first time around, right, the first time around was hard. Um.
There was a lot of things that happened during that
that that season, um, that I think affected people's image

(01:20:29):
of you. And I don't believe it's at all why
they want you on this in depth episode, but I
want to. I think people want to know why. And
there's a thousand questions I could throughout you, like why
did you do it the way you did? And I
don't think that would that would be fair. I want
to know what was it about that season in Bachelor
in Paradise that you look back on and that you
either regret or that you're proud of, or why did

(01:20:49):
it go so wrong? Um? Yeah, I guess we can
kind of dive into that a little bit. So when
you're on the Bachelorrette, obviously you're not working, you're not
getting paid, but you still have your bills to pay back. Um.
And like I said earlier, I was making fort k
fort k a year, living in Los Angeles, a lot
of expenses, not a lot of income. I was flat
broke by the time I got off Bachelor atte, I

(01:21:10):
think I had like a hundred and forty dollars in
my bank account and all all of my banking I
had us checking in and saving account a hundred four
dollars across to my name, basically didn't own a car,
didn't own anything. Um, it's just a weird spot to
be in, Like you're basically starting at zero. And like
I said earlier, like I don't have a safety net
or anything like that. So it's like if I hit
zero in my bank account and I am basically on

(01:21:31):
the streets, right, I'm sure I could like find a
friend to bring me into their house too, let me
like couch sur for a little bit. But I don't
want to do that. No one wants to do that. Um.
And so I was off the show and let's see
end of May and Paradise. He no, I'm sorry. End
of the beginning of May. Paradise began filming end of May,
beginning of June. I don't know about those days. There's

(01:21:53):
it's something like that. That's off the show for a month,
three to four weeks between Bachelorette filming and Bachelor and
Paradise filming, and I to make a decision um go
back to work for three weeks and then leave again
to potentially go to Bachelom Paradise or two. I guess
I didn't really know what the decision was between. But

(01:22:14):
I had to borrow money for my brother. I borrowed
a couple hundred dollars tied me over. But the decision
to go to Paradise, and this might sound messed up,
it was entirely financial. They were like, we're gonna offer
you this much money to come onto a TV show
where we're gonna feed you, give you drinks, in a
place to sleep for however long you're here. And I
was like, if I'm on that show for three days,
I have more money in my bank acoun than I've
ever had in my entire life. Absolutely signed me up,

(01:22:35):
and I remember talking to my friends before I left.
I was like, yeah, like I might make a thousand,
two thousand dollars on this show and then go, You're
gonna have two thousand dollars in your bank account. That's crazy?
How I know? That's insane. So the motive to go
on Bachelom Paradise, and again it might sound messed up,
was entirely financial because I needed to find a way
to like obviously support myself there after. And this was
before Bachelor already even aired, before I had even ever

(01:22:58):
known that song as things on Instagram WI the thing,
and the I had entirely processed my relationship with Rachel.
There was no hindrance going into Bachelo in Paradise that
anything that was holding on too from that first yew Bachelorette, right,
I just didn't know what was gonna happen again. I
thought I would go into Bachelo in Paradise, not kiss
a single person, not have anyone interested in me, uh,

(01:23:19):
and then leave after a couple of days exactly how
I ended up going into Bachelorette and I'll go into
Paradise hit it off with Christina. Christina is a beautiful
girl at the time, the most like beautiful girl I've
ever seen in my entire life, you know, like I
still haven't really had a taste of anything that kind
of comes after the fact. So I was like head
over heels for this girl solely just because she was

(01:23:39):
so pretty. Um and we had both were able to
like bond over our traumatic past and like these these
challenging things that we had to go through as children. Um.
And then the shutdown happened, and instead of flying from
Mexico to Los Angeles, where I lived at the time,
I decided to fly to Los Angeles to Kentucky where
Christina lived. And I was just like, yeah, I liked
this girl. Let's see, I hadn't known her for three

(01:23:59):
or four days at the time. Let's se if we
can like hang out and see if anything goes anywhere. Um.
So we fly back to Kentucky, spend a couple of
days there, Like, I'm head over heels, like obsessed with
this girl. I might calling my best friends. I was like,
I met the best girl, like the greatest girl in
the world. Um, and she was she is She wasn't
is great, She's a great person. Obviously things fell apart
later on, but I remember we then decided to drive
to Chicago. From Lexington to Chicago. It's like a six

(01:24:21):
hour drive to meet up with a couple of our
friends who lived in Chicago who wanted to go out
and party with. So, like, we drove up there, We
met up with them, partied a little bit. Things got
a little tense between me and Christina, Like we went
out for the first time to like a club together
and we started like it was like our first taste
of like our incompatibility whatever. Um, and so I left that.

(01:24:42):
We left that to get she had to drive back
to Lexington, but I flew to Denver to meet up
with my friend to drive back to like kind of
a long story, weird story, but even to get from
Chicago to Denver, I like had to call my friend Iggy.
I was like, hey, can I borrow eighty bucks to
get this flight from Chicago to Denver? Because that's how
broke I was. And I think that drove a lot
of insecurity in me as well, because it's like it's
hard to it's hard to consider yourself like a a

(01:25:04):
viable partner when you don't really have much money, enough
money to support yourself, you know what I mean. So
I think that that drove a lot of insecurity through me. Uh.
And then on my way back from Denver to Los
Angeles with my with my buddy, I got the call
saying that Bachelor and Paradise were to kick back up
and we would like go back and resume filming in
a couple of days. And again I was like, great,
Like I can, I was gonna make like three or three,

(01:25:27):
like two or three thousand dollars, and I can go
back and make even more than that, which is fantastic. Um.
And like, things with Christine and I were going fine,
but there was this weird like after that night in Chicago,
things didn't really go well and like something just didn't
sit right and I just didn't didn't really feel like
a long term thing. Um. And again I think that
it just semmed from a lot of insecurities that I
possessed at the time, and like uncertainty of what the

(01:25:48):
future held. So you go back to Paradise, and I
guess even before going to Paradise the first time, obviously
I told the producers I was like super interested in
me Danielle, and they obviously knew that, and they decided
to send her in. Right after that, the shutdown stopped
and the show resumed. And this is the girl that
I like held so highly in my eyes. I was

(01:26:12):
like super attracted to her. She seemed like a really
interesting person. And then obviously we met on the show
and I was like, Wow, this beautiful girl is like
super into me in the weirdest way. But she like
she expressed interest in me, but she still like pulled
away a lot. UM, and I like for something like
something about the chase, like really like ignited to spark
and interest in me. Um. And then meanwhile, Christina obviously
and I had this sistery together because we had just

(01:26:33):
spent a couple of days in Kentucky together in Chicago, UM,
and we had known each other for like a week
or a couple of weeks at that point. And I
don't know, I think that I think that if I
could go back into it differently, I don't know if
I would. It's hard to say. Obviously I would, I would,
I don't know. I don't think I was ready to
be in a relationship at the time. I guess, really
is what it boils down to. I shouldn't gone a
bachelor in Paradise because I didn't want to be in

(01:26:55):
a relationship, like the fact that it was a financial
move for me, rather than like I want to find
some one moved for me. I think really kind of
with me a lot. Sorry the language, uh, And that's
kind of how I've always been in Los Angeles too,
Like I would never go on dates with the intent
to have a girlfriend, you know, Like before I went
on the TV show, I would never go on dates
to like they're like, oh, I wonder if this girl's
like a suitable partner for me, you know what I mean. Um,

(01:27:17):
So I've always kind of sucked at dating in that sense,
and then to just go on the show and have
it like kind of be nationally televised, it was it
was a long time coming, right, Like even throughout Bachelorette,
I would get text from like X's or girls that
I went on dates with, uh not girls I want
to dates with, but like a girl I dated. And
then even like my ex girlfriend, they're like, Wow, you're

(01:27:38):
getting a lot of positive attention and like that's not
really right, um because I just like in a in
a real world setting, I'm not that's like focused on
one person, you know what I mean. And that's and
and is do you believe that is the reason that
you suck at dating? Is because it's hard for you
to focus on one person. It's hard for me to

(01:27:59):
actually then it's I'm getting better at this, but it's
hard for me to. I enjoy the good times obviously,
but it's hard for me to like want to like
stick around through the bad times. Like if you get
an argument, I'm all right, well, if we're getting an
arguments right now, like, there's no reason to stick around.
I don't see the value in it, you know what
I mean. That's something I'm working on, and I think
I've actually gone a lot from both the show, the
podcasts and just life in general. Um But at the time,

(01:28:21):
I was like, any any whiff of trouble, I'm out,
you know, like there's no point in sticking around and something.
It's difficult, what's the point of it? Um? So yeah,
So it was basically me like Para actually in Paradise
was a more accurate representation of who I was at
the time than Bachelorrette for me, you know what I mean.
And so it was hard, Like I said earlier, it
was hard to go from that uh pedestal of like

(01:28:43):
very well liked contestant to them like very heavily criticized
contestant and rightfully so like I should have been criticized.
I think I could have handled things obviously much better.
Um But but yeah, that was that was a challenging time.
And I think a lot of it too, was like
it was just everything was so new, like I had
never really had like an open bar to drink as

(01:29:04):
much as I could possibly drink. I never had this
much attention from two women that were just like way
too attractive to be talking to me, you know what
I mean. Um, And I think I was just kind
of like a weird in a weird like a kid
in a candy store. So I just didn't really have it.
Like the paradox of choice is just kind of overwhelming me. Um.
And yeah, that that whole saga was like pretty taxing
on me mentally, um and obviously on the two girls

(01:29:27):
as well. But so even though all this stuff that's
happening you could watch and say, yeah, this is true,
this is happening, this is just my own issues, it
was still taxing on you mentally. Oh, I was like
super depressed throughout the whole process and walks my girlfriend. Um,
there was a there was a lot of like depression

(01:29:47):
and anxiety and stress that were going through my head
with all that all that was airing. But again, it
was like it wasn't like unjust like it's not that
I shouldn't have been receiving that it was it was
me because I was just acting uh wrongly. I think
a lot of it too, was like I said, I
was like, I would get really drunk when I was
on the show, and I think, in hindsight, like if
I could go back, I would just not drink because

(01:30:08):
I would make a lot more conscious decisions, just better decisions. Um.
Even now, Like I like, when I was twenty six,
I was like partying a lot a lot. Now I
don't really go out ever, you know. And we went
to the party the other day and I was like
the first time we got really party together Kalen and I. Um,
and four or five months of dating, which I think
is great, but well, like watching that stuff back, I

(01:30:28):
was like, I was like, yes, this is me who
I This is like who I am now in this
moment of life or whatever in this in this snapshot
of life. And it's just like it wasn't very obviously
the best version of myself, you know. That's That's one
thing that I don't think we've seen out of you
through television, is you upset. And I think that's the

(01:30:50):
one thing that people probably like I want to ring
your next sometimes and be like you're you aren't showing
any emotion here. Um, There's been moments, but it's quickly
moved on. From and I think to hear that this
really hurt you or affected you or allowed you to
look inward, I think, I don't know, there's a there's
a it's it encourages me as a friend maybe, but

(01:31:15):
also it hurts because I know that it was just
I mean, that season of life is so confusing because
there's a thousand things coming at you. You're dating people
that you never imagine that you'd be dating in your life, right,
I mean, you're you're batting way out of your league
every time you talk to a woman in Paradise or
on the show, and then when it comes back and
it feels like you're alone in it and everybody's criticizing

(01:31:37):
you it, it does get depressing. And and to know
that that's how it affected you opens my eyes to
something I've never seen. Yeah, it's it's hard to kind
of put myself back in that situation too, because there's
so it was challenging. And I think that the people
that I was surrounded by, like the people from the
show specifically, I had I hadn't really had the chance

(01:32:00):
get to know a lot of people from the show,
like Super Well, like I've gotten to know you over
the past two and a half years. Um, I don't.
I mean, I don't really know how to say this,
but like, I like because I continue to date Christina
after Bachelor in Paradise, Right, I did a deal for
like a short amount of time after the Paradise um,

(01:32:21):
but then I called that off because I still have
feelings for Christina. The reason I called Christina off the
first time was because I like didn't like a lot
of the things that I had heard from other people.
But then I realized that I shouldn't be upset by
those things, and so, um, it was just like this
weird bit of confusion that I was constantly but throughout
Paradise airing. And I don't want to like put Christine

(01:32:43):
on the spot or anything like this, but like there
was just no support from this person that I was
like trying to invest into and like supposedly cared about me.
There was no support from her at any moment throughout
those times, maybe like maybe glimpses and very privately, but publicly,
she was like very critical of me because I don't
know exactly why she wanted to play that role I suppose, um,

(01:33:04):
and that really took a big toll on me, as well,
where I was like going through this really challenging time
publicly and and and and openly, but then I wasn't
really receiving much support on the back end or like
the behind closed doors. Um, And so that was like
a super I don't know, it was just a really
weird time in my life where I like I thought
that things were supposed to be this way with this person,

(01:33:27):
and like I was like trying to convince myself consistently
that like what was happening was normal and it was okay,
and it was like easy to look past. But then
like the longer, like the more time we're on, I
just began to realize that wasn't normal and it wasn't
like right, it wasn't okay right. So it leads you
to where you're at now. We we had a stint
on Bachelor Winter Games. Um, you did walk away from

(01:33:47):
Bachelor with Games in a relationship with Leslie we publicly
Actually I was able to be with you and Hunters
um at one point. Um, that's ended, and it leads
you up to this paradise this season, um, which was
another shocking twist for Dean Angler. Um. But here's where,

(01:34:07):
here's where I want to sit at for one second.
Is all these things that we've talked about leading up
to this point have helped me understand you better as
a friend, and this season on Paradise helped me understand
you better because yes, from a viewer's perspective, it was
entertaining you going down there. Uh, your relationship with Kalen,
you leaving the pain that that cause, and going Dean,

(01:34:30):
You've done it again. Bring on the criticism, Bring on
the critics. The charming man is deceitful, because charm is deceitful.
But the man I knew was missing there and you
came back and you're dating here today. Um, through the

(01:34:50):
years and years that you've been on the show and
now your second time on Paradise in a time and
winter game and you're time about Sorry, why did you
want to come back for calin? Uh? Why did I
want to come back? What did you learn through those
things about the relationships that have failed, the people that
you've lost contact with them? Assuming at this point Christina

(01:35:11):
and Daniel are no longer a part of your life, Rachel,
isn't we've clarified, is not really a part of your life?
What is it about these relationships publicly that you've dated
within that's allowed you to lead learn enough about who
you're looking for, what you're looking for, and what you
wanted to say. I'm gonna take the risk. It's not
gonna be easy. I'm gonna fly all the way back
down to Mexico to pick a girl up off a

(01:35:32):
beach because I need to know something more about her. Yeah,
that was an interesting time, um to start, kind of
from the beginning of going to Batch. I think I
got the call for this Bachelor in Paradise around February.
I was in Japan with my friend. They called me,
and at the time I was like, absolutely not. I
don't want to be in a relationship right now. Like
I've got these plans to move into a van and
focus on myself and like explore every avenue of interest

(01:35:55):
that I could possibly have, So like, Paradise not gonna
happen unless you, like pay me more money, you know.
I literally said, I found out the most money that
anyone's ever made on the show, and I requested one
dollar more than that person made. I said, I'm not
doing it for a dollar less than this number. You
are a nurse. And eventually it came like I got
laughed at and hung up on. Basically, they called me

(01:36:18):
back a couple of months, a month or two later
and they're like, Okay, have you reconsidered. I go, yes,
I'll do it for this much money, still an exorbitant,
ridiculous amount that is just never gonna be approved. Hung
up on me again. And then eventually I was like
talking to my friends about it, and they're like, you know,
like whatever I think. I was talking to Nick about it,
actually he goes, what do you have to lose? Like,
you're not You're not like going to miss out or
anything by going down to the beach. It's it would

(01:36:39):
be another fun experience, just like you know yourself better,
behavirself better this time too. So like, yeah, I guess
I'll give it a go. We'll see what happens. Um.
I had grown out like my facial like my goute
a lot randomly, and I like walked the carpet with
Wells and I saw how disgusting my chin hair looked,
and I was like, you know, I'm gonna shave off
this little under part of my goutique. Keep the must

(01:37:00):
dash um. And then I got to Mexico and I
still have the mustache for the more or less, and
I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna keep
this mustache. Walked down unto the beach, um, and let's
and it's also the confidence that we talked about earlier.
Yeah I suppose Okay, yeah, no, you're right. I don't know.
It's it's hard to It's easy to like paint a

(01:37:21):
picture of what you expect to happen, but then when
you get down there, it's like, obviously, never really gonna
happen how you expected to. Um. I thought I was
gonna be a gimmick, you know. I thought I was
gonna walk down to the beach and be like, oh,
here's Dean back for the fourth time. Like he's gonna
hang out for a couple of days, maybe like kiss someone,
and then probably go home because he's not taking it seriously.
Uh So I walked down and see a lot of

(01:37:41):
people I don't know, but I see it like obviously
Christina Blake and Derek, who I am friends with for
the most part, all of them. Um, and then I
was like, oh, it's like it's weird being back here.
I made a conscious decision to stay sober the whole
time too, just because that's kind of been a downfall
of mine through season's past, and it was if you

(01:38:03):
ever think about going on the show, do not drink alcohol,
just like you have like a glass of wine maybe
every once in a while, But like the first couple
of seasons, I was getting like black out drunk almost
every episode. They're almost every day, I mean, because I
just like it. There was nothing really else to do,
and I didn't really have much else to do other
than that. This time, I didn't drink, and it was
the best experience out of all of them by a

(01:38:24):
landslide um. And obviously Caylin and I go on that
first date, and Caylin and I have a bit of
a history, right, like she d MS me before she
even went on the Bachelor, uh, and so like I
knew that there's interest there. I like randomly saw her
do an interview before I even went down to Paradise
of her saying like, oh, Dean so attractive, and I
was like, Wow, this girl really like likes me weirdly, um,
which in hindsight like it's I don't know, I really

(01:38:46):
appreciate the fact that she reached out to me before
even going on The Bachelor, uh, because like I think
that there's a lot of insecurity that's driven from the
fact that, like, sometimes you feel like people are just
using you for whatever reason, and um, I don't know. Anyways,
we're going a date goes well, chemistry is there. I
didn't expect to like this girl. I thought that we
were just going to go on a date and be like, yeah,
you know whatever, this girl sucks. It turns out like

(01:39:08):
I actually do really like her, and time kind of
starts to continue to go on, and I like I
started liking her, but I was like so convinced in
myself that I was not going to leave that beach
in a relationship, and the producers all knew that too,
and Caylin even knew that too. I told her every
single day. I was like, look, I'm not gonna I'm
gonna break up with you in the last day of
the Passion in Paradise, like just understand that. And she
I think she like said that she understood it, but

(01:39:30):
I think she kind of thought that I was like
just joking around. Obviously I wasn't um And eventually one
night the producers were like, look, man, like you're not
taking this seriously, you know you're gonna leave. Uh. Caylin's
expressed interest in this other guy who's probably gonna come
down in the next couple of days, like it would
probably be smart of you to get out of here
now so she can explore that relationship. And I was like,
you know what, that makes a lot of sense. And
I agree with it because I was like, again, still

(01:39:53):
convinced that I wasn't gonna leave in a relationship. And
so I leave. I I back to San Diego, where
my van was, and I drive out to Horseshoe Bend
and think about things. And when I landed actually in
San Diego, I like even I texted my producer friend
and I was like, listen, man, I'm like, really sad,
I think I might have made the wrong choice. And

(01:40:14):
he was like, just think about it, like dwell on
it for a little bit. Process it. Uh. He's something
like a full on list of things like coping ideas
of like go here, think about this, like do this,
eat this, like things just like the kind of like
put my mind at ease a and be like allows
a lots of introspection. H And he's like and I
was like, look, man, like come sad, I think I

(01:40:34):
made the wrong decision. He goes, well, hey, listen obviously
for for ratings wise, we would love to have you
come back on the show. It's up to you, obviously
at the end of the day if you want to
come back on or not take the night to sleep
on it. Text me in the morning if you want
to come back. We'll book you a planet to get
and we'll foll you back down. Ah. So I drive
out to hors you Bend, stay there for a couple
of hours, drive down to Phoenix, book a flight from
Phoenix to Los Angeles, wake up the next day, and uh,

(01:40:58):
I was like, you know what I miss? Hanging around
this person that I spent the past eight days basically
attached at the hip. I don't know if you remember
Bachelor and Paradise that in its entirety, but this girl
was like a piece of velcrow to me. She was
stuck on me. Uh, like Elmer Fudd's strongest gripping glue. Yeah,
she wouldn't leave you, She wouldn't leave me alone. Obsessed.

(01:41:21):
They say, yes, they absolutely do say that, and it's accurate.
It's accurate. Um, it was hard to go from that
eight days, twenty four hours a day to being around
this person who I like, actually genuinely enjoyed hanging Like
it wasn't this weird, like me convincing myself that I
enjoyed spending time with this person. It was like I
actually genuinely like enjoyed it. And there wasn't really like
many lapses in conversation, and when there was, it felt natural.

(01:41:41):
It felt normal, you know. Um. And then I left
and I I got to thinking. I was like, well,
I could wait until Bachelor Paradise has done filming and
like just text her and like ask her if she
has the time to talk to me, and like see
if we can figure this out off camera. Like there's
less risk that way because I'm not putting myself out
there so publicly again. But also I knew that she

(01:42:03):
would really liked Connor and she was really interested in
meeting him. So I was like, well, like the more
I duelled on it and actually called the cup of
my friends, I was like, what should I do? None
of them were supportive of me going back, by the way,
but I knew that like if I had if I
didn't go back, she would have left the beach more
more likely than not in a relationship with Connor, and
then I would be infringing upon that relationship at the time,

(01:42:25):
and it would eventually become public when they left the
beach together when the show aired. So I was like,
this girl is great, She's gonna get swooped up sooner
rather than later. If I don't go back now, I'm
probably never gonna have a chance to see if this
would like actually work out. Um, So I fly back,
walked down to the beach, and yeah, obviously things went
well for me. But that whole decision process, it wasn't easy. Man.

(01:42:47):
Like I talked to uh like Alex and Mike, some
of my best friends, and then I came into the
studio and recorded a podcast like to Jared, and Jared
was actually one of the few that was like super
supportive of the idea and I'm glad I did it.
It was uh yeah, I don't know. It wasn't easy,
even like walking back down onto that beach that second time,
I was like I almost like turned around a couple
of times. I almost like told the producers. I was like, look,

(01:43:08):
you know what, actually, on second thought, this is a
bad idea, Like let's let's not do this. Um but yeah,
and and you know, kind of to bring everything full circle,
like I'm sick of I'm sick of like running away
from all the problems in my life, like all the
bad things that happened to me. All I do is
like basically either run away from them, uh physically or
or figuratively in so many ways. And even like living
in a van you could look at is like me

(01:43:28):
literally physically running away from everything that's important to me
or has value in my life. Um So coming back
down to the beach was kind of like a symbolic
version of me saying like, look, I'm gonna stop running
away from these things. I'm gonna stop like running away
from the good things in my life and figure out
exactly what I want to do and where I'm gonna go.
And I want you to be part of that with me.

(01:43:50):
And I'm grateful I did. I don't think that she's
upset that she did either. But it wasn't easy. What
was it about, Klin? There's there's something I've caught on
here and I want to tell you, tell me. I
want you to tell me if I'm wrong. Every other
person you've dated in the Bachelor franchise. You've explained the
very first thing is a bit a physical compliment. Klin

(01:44:12):
is obviously gorgeous. It's not a secret to anybody. But
with Klin, your very first comment to her about her
is about who she is as a person. Do you
feel that change in yourself? Um, what I've experienced in
relationships is obviously, I think the first thing that brings
us to like want to talk to someone is a
physical attraction, or like you see someone at a bar,

(01:44:33):
like even you with Jess Jes caught your eye on Instagram, right,
so you just go out of your way to try
to try and find it, get to know her deeper.
I don't think that's a bad thing to be physically
attracted this someone off the bat. Um. I think my
kind of like Achilles heal and relationships is I kind
of let that override my other um I guess way
of thinking, and what I've like slowly began to realize

(01:44:55):
it is like I'm I'm this is gonna sound kind
of silly and maybe a little melodramatic. I'm like, I'm
like probably on the spectrum of a sexuality. Really, I like,
don't I'm not like motivated by sex, but like the
novelty of like meeting someone new and like seeing if
you can like kiss them or hook up with them,
Like that's exciting to me. Um. But like if I

(01:45:15):
date someone that's just just solely beautiful, like the main
reason I'm dating dating them is beauty that fades incredibly quickly.
And I've experience with Kalen is, yes, she's an incredibly
beautiful person, but it's a lot more than that, and
like I can actually enjoy it, Like I spent a
lot of freaking time with this girl, right, And there
are times where I'm like I need to get out
of here, but it takes a lot longer for me

(01:45:37):
to get to that point than it has for anyone
in the past, where like I'm running from these relationships,
like this is pretty Kalin. I'm running from these relationships,
but I feel like I'm running from them because I
got into them for the wrong reason, you know, like
for some superficial, shallow reason. Um. And what's nice about
obviously my relationship with Kalin is it goes a little
bit deeper than that, and there's like a little bit

(01:45:57):
more of I guess, like banter back and forth that
we're able to have, and so yes, she is a
beautiful woman and I'm very lucky to be able to
call her my girlfriend. But it goes on. It goes
a lot deeper than just that physical beauty, which I
typically would place ahead or in the past had placed
ahead of, like a deeper connection, I suppose. Yeah. Then
the thing with Kylyn is, for at least the time

(01:46:18):
being no pressure on you, guys. Um is that when
you do start to feel that like I need to
get out of here, which I get I feel that too, right,
I love my girlfriend, but it happens. The interesting part
is once you do leave and you can collect your
thoughts there, when I know it's right, is there's an
excitement also go back. Yeah it sucks. Yeah. We just
spent like nine days together in a row, like literally

(01:46:40):
every waking moment together and every unwaking moment, like we
start obviously in the same bed and everything, and uh,
I was like it was yesterday. I was like, dude,
I just gotta get the hell away from you for
a little bit, you know what I mean. So I
drove out to Paris. I wanted to skydive all day,
but the winds weren't didn't allow me to skydive. So
I basically it's like kind of hung around, like worked
on things like watching Netflix a little bit, watch football.

(01:47:00):
Then I was like like sorry language again, but like
I was like, I was like, I just want to
kind of want to get back and hang out with her,
you know what, which is like it's it's a really
thing to feel, and it's a really weird feeling because
I haven't felt it many times in my life. Yeah,
it's like it's like, dang it, like I I think
I've found something. Gosh, I've I've been really good at

(01:47:21):
running away and feeling like, oh yeah, I can't do
this is getting annoying, and then all of a sudden
you found something that you're like, I kind of like it. Yeah.
And that was the big thing too, where it's like
a lot of the reason that I wanted to live
in a van was because I wanted to experience ah,
not like individuality, but like seclude just like complete freedom
and every facet of the word. Right, that's what the

(01:47:43):
appeople of living in a van expressed. I thought of it, asked, well,
that was a weird way to say that sentence. Um,
And then so like the idea of a girlfriend kind
of is counterintuitive to that same idea, and so that's
why I left the beach in the first place, where
I was like, look, I have this very clear picture
of what I want to be doing for the next
whole months in my life. That's completely not her for you, don't.
I want to be able to drive where I want
to drive to. I want to be able to skydive

(01:48:04):
where I want a skydive, ski where I want to ski,
scoobar where I want a scooba, etcetera, etcetera. Um, and
the idea of having a girlfriend is only going to
hinder that idea. And then so coming back, I think
like a lot of my reservations about coming back, we're
like okay, well, like I'm still not gonna be able
to do those things. But what's great about Kalin is
she's very like supportive and encouraging of that. And sometimes
she's like, yeah, like I'm gonna come along with you

(01:48:25):
on this trip wherever you want to go. But then
she also like, tomorrow I'll leave for Ptaro, Chico for
two weeks, and she's like, okay with me going away
for two weeks. Whether she has the option to not
be okay with it or not. Maybe he's a little
bit for debate, but the fact is she like she's
not making me hinder my uh explorative side of myself.
Like I feel like some relationships kind of like kind

(01:48:47):
of really back in a little bit, and she's just
as keen to get out there and do the things
that I want to do for the most part um
in terms of at least like going places. She's obviously
on board with a lot of that stuff. But uh, yeah,
it's it's it's a little different than past relationships. It's funny. Actually,
we were just talking the other day, uh and I
can't remember exactly the context that it came up in,

(01:49:07):
but we're talking about me. I shaved my legs for Halloween,
just as a as a beautiful girl for Halloween, the
most beautiful girl I've ever seen, second most beautiful girl
I ever seen. And we're talking about shaving my leg hair.
And I was like, yeah, like this leg hair has
been with me my entire life. It's been with me
through good girlfriends and through bad girlfriends. And I was like, well,
I'm just gonna shave it off and start over new,

(01:49:28):
because like, I actually like my girlfriend for once, not
for once, but like, you know what I mean, Like
it's basically like like a fresh start of sorts in
a weird leg hair centric way up to the belly button. Um.
I actually I went about four inches down in my thigh.
I don't know why I didn't go all the way up,
but I didn't feel right to go all the way up.
But yeah, it was like this weird Uh. I had
never really audibly said like like I like my girlfriend

(01:49:50):
more than I've liked a girlfriend in a long time,
you know what I mean? It was just like a
weird I don't know, like I didn't really I don't
think she registered it. I don't think I really registered it.
But for me to like say that was just like
a weird thing, you know what I mean, I know
what you mean. Yeah, to like say it and mean
it and feel The other day somebody asked me with Jessica.
My dad did Actually He's like, so what do you

(01:50:11):
what's going on there? Like? Where is this gonna go?
I said, Dad. The craziest part about it is like
I have so much peace around this relationship, Like it's
exciting for me to say things like I like my girlfriend,
which hasn't happened many times in my life. It's not
the only time it's happened, it's not many. But the
thing with Jessica is like, there is this like enormous
amount of piece that follows it that has never been

(01:50:33):
the case. I thought it is too And obviously, like
we have our differences Kylen and I, Um, she's a
little bit more traditional and a little bit less traditional
of course, but uh yeah, it's just it's a it's
a it's a nice feeling, Dean, You're in a relationship.
Life has changed for you since we were last introduced,

(01:50:54):
first introduced to you on The bachelorat I have a
few emails from me your biggest fans. They're not gonna
be easy to answer. And then I leave with this.
In every in depth episode we do this, we say, hey, Dean,
give us a message to send our listeners out on
because we've got to know you through this podcast. And
I think everybodys sitting around would say, yeah, we've got
to know Dean a little bit better today, Greed, all

(01:51:17):
the heads are shaking. Yeah, well, you guys know that
about my testicles now, So I guess a little bit
at least Dean uh This emails from Susan soon says,
I was wondering how Dean feels about the way Rachel
has been talking about Klin without even meeting her the
Calan listened to his interview on the Rachel's podcast. What
were her thoughts? When does he think the two will

(01:51:38):
ever meet? Caitlin and Rachel have Matt post I think
I don't know. I don't know. I don't I don't
really want to have much of an opinion on this.
I don't think I don't need to. Okay, cool, if
you don't want to, you don't need to. I think
my girlfriend's great, and I think that's really all that
matters as it pretends to the relationship, And I think
Rachel should focus on our relationship. Next emails from Vanessa

(01:52:00):
not the Vanessa we know. Back during Courtland's season, there
was dramas for ending Kalin sighting into Dean's d m
s and not being there for the right reasons. Is
it ironic that the next chance she gets to date him,
they walk off on the show together. Was this a
red flag for Dean knowing that she was cast for
Colton season while interested in you? Also the timeline of

(01:52:20):
Kalin's being in a relationship with Blake doesn't add up
because she was in talks to be the potential bachelort.
So if that were true, there's no reason why she
would be committed in a committed relationship with Blake, like
she told people in Paradise was a red flag for you, Dean. Um, No,
I don't think that really made much sense. Uh. Calin

(01:52:40):
was cast for Colton's season. Yes, I think that you're
allowed to have a crush on someone and then also
you're allowed to go and date someone else too. I
don't think there's much issue with that. I will say
I'm gonna speak on Kalen's behalf. She wanted Jason Tartick
to be the Bachelor, and she's she went on Colton season.
I don't think that's an issue either. It's not like
I need someone to be like I've only had eyes
for you since the day that I was born, and
like she's a free woman to do what she wants.

(01:53:02):
It's like, um, the Blake stuff. Man, that stuff's been
beaten like a dead horse. Like a dead horse. Is
it like a dead horse? It's been beaten to death? Um,
And I don't think we really need to talk about
that anymore, I would agree. So here's the truth to it.
In summary, Dean and Kiln are together. Things are going well.
You were the hard emails you were telling about. I
feel like there has to be something harder than that. No,

(01:53:23):
that's pretty hard, especially hard because Kalin is in the room.
I know you're right. Um, okay, Dean, this is the
end of the in depth episode one that we were
very thankful that you came on. Thank you first off
for coming on here and sharing, um who you are
with us, allowing us to to fill in the gaps

(01:53:44):
of where we might have missed it during your time
on The Bachelor, I think hopefully, and tell me if
I'm wrong. These podcasts help give a clearer picture of
who Dean is. Um. Yeah, What's funny about podcast to
me is I always I don't always listen to them back,
but sometimes I listen back to a podcast that either
I was on or a friend of mine was on,
and I'll always like look back and be like, well,

(01:54:05):
I wish we would have dived into this a little
bit deeper or went down this alley a little bit
longer kind of thing. Um, And I'm sure like it
if I listened to this podcast back, I might obviously
not because it's kind of embarrassing for me in a
lot of ways. I hope that I don't feel that way.
I don't expect to. UM. Whenever you like think about
your story to yourself and for whatever reason you're doing it,

(01:54:27):
you always like kind of plan the things that you
want to talk about and like what you want to
touch on. And so I feel like obviously conversation flows
ebbs and flows and doesn't necessarily allow at all times.
But I think that this was really good and I
think that you did a great job of navigating the conversation.
You got the ball story out of me for the
first time in public that's ever happened. That's a big one.
And I thought about every every platform that I would

(01:54:49):
have had to share that story. I never never expected
it to be this, but you did a fantastic job.
You made me feel comfortable, You made me feel like
I was at home. So I appreciate that. But is
there any thing right now that you do look back
on during this and you're like, I wish you would
have gone deeper. Um, I'm grateful that we didn't go
deeper on Bachelor Winter Games. I'm grateful that the thing

(01:55:14):
about all these stories, right is that there whatever I say,
whatever story I share, it's never going to be the
full truth, whether I think it is or not, it's
never gonna be a pent accurate And so it just
doesn't necessarily make sense to kind of go into a
lot of like the he said, she said type of
stuff because it's never gonna be right. And so I
appreciate that we didn't dwell on that stuff very long

(01:55:34):
because my experience with Bachelor in Paradise is my experience
and everyone else's is everyone else is. So it's just
like it's kind of a challenging thing to navigate when
you want to open up about it, And like I
don't want to put anyone in blast ever either, so
like while you're trying to be respectful of their privacy,
you also want to share your side of the story,
even though you know that that's maybe not exactly like

(01:55:56):
if you were to go with a third party objective
view to that stuff, like maybe you would see things
a little bit differ. Only so it's just always like
a weird, challenging dynamic. But um, I don't think that
we could have gone deeper into anything than we did.
I I am a little upset that. Um. We talked
a little bit about how there were only a few

(01:56:17):
moments that I were to show emotion during this podcast
that you said because I wanted to show more, and
I do want to show more, and I obviously you know,
we've we've gotten there a couple of times as friends.
But it's kind of, I guess hard to be like
that performative and be like, let's dive into this and like,
let's get super emotional about it, especially when when when
it comes to things like talking about my mother passing
away or Hunter or Alex. It's kind of gotten to

(01:56:38):
the point where I've just began to recite like a
script in my head, you know what I mean. You
you explain it enough times, you basically just spit out
the facts as quickly as you can and then you
hope to move on to the next topic. And this
was it was that, but it was like a maybe
a more water down version of that where we dove
a little bit deeper into which I appreciate, but I
still feel like there were times where I was kind
of like going into autopilot mode and just like saying

(01:57:00):
things that I've said a thousand times, you know what
I mean, and so ill if I were to listen
back to this, I would I would probably be critical
of myself for not being more I guess, like spontaneous
with my emotions and like figuring out exactly what might
have been causing those like words that I was saying,
you know, And and I don't know how to respond

(01:57:20):
to that, because I feel like it's it is one
of the detriments to doing a having a public life
at any level is you get asked about the things
that have been most pivotal in your story, like a
mother passing or best friend passing, and you could ask
about it so consistently even today, like different thing. But
for me, some pivotal points in my life are my
times in hnderous and like my relationship with Lauren. I

(01:57:42):
just did a press to her today and I was
asked about Lauren getting married on every single one of
my stops, Like that's my ex who I spent two
years of my life with, who like has held a
big piece of my heart for a while, Or your
your mother who has a huge role in your life,
but you talk about it so consistently that you've become
numb to the answers, and it does become routine, and
it's scary. It's scary, but it's also healthy because I

(01:58:06):
know that in my own time there is a deep
sensitivity and caring for those moments that like I can't
highlight publicly because I just I do, I turn into
a robot right well, And also think about it this way,
like in my case, what would it be like if
every time someone asked me to talk about my mother,
like I broke down and started crying, you know what

(01:58:26):
I mean? Like that just doesn't really seem healthy. I
don't know, but maybe it is. Maybe it's not. I
don't know. I don't know exactly. It's just it's like likely,
like you said, you kind of become numb to it
and you just basically recite the things that you've learned
to recite just so you can kind of either get
off a topic you're uncomfortable talking about and move on
to something else, or for whatever other reason, I don't know,
deing um close out here. Thirty second message to our listeners.

(01:58:51):
Before we do, Ashley has written some rapid fire questions
for you. We're gonna bring on Bob Dalton at the
end of the podcast. But thirty second message to our
listeners of who you're becoming, who you want to be,
and how they can live their best life. Wow, best life.
That's a good one. Um. Who am I becoming? I
think every day I grew up to hopefully become a

(01:59:13):
better version of myself. I don't really know. This is
kind of a weird thirty second segment. Um. If you're
listening to this, be sure to listen to help I
second dating on I Heart Radio. Also if you're listening
to this. A big thing that people reach out to
me often about on Instagram is about the traveling that
I do. And I think that I've learned a lot
about myself through the travels that I've done, both by
myself and with friends and significant others. Um. And if

(01:59:34):
you're ever questioning whether you should do something along those lines,
I fully support it and encourage you to do it
because I've learned a lot about myself. I've gained Uh.
I would say almost all the confidence I have nowadays
is just through traveling, especially as of lately, by myself
with my friends, and it's invaluable experience and it's incredibly fun.
Be sure to check out my website www dot Danie

(01:59:55):
babies dot com. I'm writing about my travels a little
bit more, and I want to be able to share
with you kind of like the nitty gritty side of
traveling and not really like the puffed up like I
share about my costs and my planning and all that
kind of stuff. And I kind of want to shed
some light on that side of things to hopefully allow
you to understand it better to be able to do
it yourself, because it's changed me a lot as a human.

(02:00:17):
So that's it. So where can they find the blog?
Danny babies dot com, Deanie babies dot com Coming at you, Dean,
send us out here. Ashley's Rapid Fire Questions TV show.
You're loving right now? Oh, living with yourself? You can
only have one of these toothpaste flost soap. Which one
do you pick? Oh Man toothpaste artists? You want to

(02:00:39):
have play at your wedding? Oh John craigy good choice?
Widing know. I just saw him live, did you? Oh? Yeah?
Love John Grays. That's I like that about you. Hey,
celebrity crush Kaylyn Miller Keys can't choose her Jamie Chunk,
not Surprised, Jared or Nick Jared and Nick. I don't know, Ben.

(02:01:05):
That's a messed up question that you can only listen
to one of these bands forever. Which one do you pick?
In sinc Backstreet Boys or Jonas Brothers. I'll go deaf,
thank you very much. And this one is easy. Which
one did you rather give up? Drinking or traveling? Drinking?
Dean and glared everybody, it's holiday season. We're up in flying,

(02:01:32):
we're driving, we're playing trains, automobiles, walking. I don't know
what you wanna do. You can do a lot of
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(02:01:55):
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(02:02:17):
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(02:02:41):
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(02:03:04):
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(02:03:26):
during checkout again for twenty dollars off a suitcase, visit
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famous during checkout. You heard us talk about it many
times before. Just for a little reminder, two years ago,
I started on a journey with a few my buddy
starting company called Generous International. I'm not gonna bore you

(02:03:49):
with it because if you're a fan of the show,
you've probably heard it many times before. But Generous sells coffee,
t shirts, bracelets, mugs, other products of stories behind them
and we donate the profits of them back to nonprofits,
social causes, etcetera that are making uh life change in
the world. So it's fighting human injustice that are affecting humans.

(02:04:10):
And here right now, we're partnering with a campaign with
Sackcloth and Ashes. Uh. Sackcloth and Nashes is a blanket
company that is a give one How would you explain
that bob by one give one model? Is that what
you call that? One local local model? Uh? We're partnering
cyck Cloth Nash is because for every blanket you buy

(02:04:31):
between October through October, a blanket will be donated to
your local homeless shelter along with you will receive a
twelve ounce bag of coffee and the proceeds will be
donated to the l A Mission. And right now, my
good buddy, one of my greatest friends, one of my
newest friends, Bob Dalton, is in studio talking to us

(02:04:53):
about the campaign right now. Bob, obviously I know uh
the story behind Sackcloth Nashes. But for the listeners out
there that do not, um, why was that Claus started? Yeah?
So I launched the company five years ago and it
was inspired by my mom who ended up living on
the streets for a short period of time, and it

(02:05:14):
completely changed my paradigm of how I view and understand
homelessness because I was always the guy that would drive
by people on the street and whisper under my breath,
go get a job. And she ended up in that situation,
and it um changed my paradigm because she has two
college degrees, she raised my sister and I by herself.
She's the hardest working woman I know, and so the
idea that she would end up in that situation, it

(02:05:35):
inspired me to call my local home of shelters and
ask what they needed, and they all said blankets. And
I was familiar with the one for one model. But
I felt like the evolution to the one for one
model was to evolve it and make it local and um,
giving people all around the United States an opportunity to
make a difference down the street from where they live.
And so I came up with the idea that for
every blanket purchased, will donate a blanket to that person's

(02:05:58):
local home of shelters. So if you live in Austin, Texas,
and you buy a blanket, will send a blanket to
a homeless shelter in Austin. If you live in Nashville, Tennessee,
and you buy a blanket, will send a blanket to
a shelter in Nashville. And the whole concept was, let's
empower people to make a difference in their local communities
to help an issue that is in all of our backyards.
You actually brought in I think two blankets from market

(02:06:18):
Easton to day. You want to pass those out real quick? Yeah,
that'd be great. Check these out as we're talking. Uh, yeah,
we're passing on the blankets right now. Um for Mark
and Easton to take home, keep cuttle up with tonight
with their their lovely wives. Easton has the biggest male space.
There's that one man that loves getting gifts more than
easton Um Bob. As as they open up these gifts here,

(02:06:42):
I want to talk to you a little bit. Then
you see a need, um, you hear a need from
the local shelters. You start this blanket company, and then
what is the story of sackcloth and ash has been?
Because that's where it starts, but it's definitely not There's
a lot that's happened to get you to this place
you are now. Yeah, So the quick overview is I

(02:07:03):
launched the company with a sewing machine and a roll
of fabric from Joe Ann's Fabric and shout out to
Joe Ann's. I still get the discount codes on my phone.
And I realized really quickly that I can't sew, and
so I found a lady in my community that could.
So she started making me blankets. I'd box them up,
started driving up and down the Oregon coast and getting
into as many shops as I could. And my only

(02:07:25):
business strategy was post on Instagram once a day. So
I'm posting on Instagram. This is back in two thousand fourteen,
when Instagram was just at the early stages of kind
of at the bottom of the wave. November of two
thousand fourteen, five months into business, Instagram emailed me and
they're like, Bob, we love your story, we love what
you're doing. We want to feature you on Instagram's Instagram account.
And that was kind of our kickstarter. That was our

(02:07:47):
big break as a company. They post about us, we
go out to forty two million people and we grew
like twenty thou followers overnight. Ultimately, what that did was
it gave us the ability to work with pretty much
any content creator on Instagram. So there was a time
like two thousand fourteen, two thousand fifteen, I was working
with over a hundred influencers at one time and just
built the brand on social media for the first four years.

(02:08:09):
Two thousand eighteen, we launched our first major campaign called
Blanket the United States, where our goal is to donate
one million blankets a home of shelters by two thousand
twenty four. And we're gonna do that by partnering with
people individually who buy a blanket from our website will
send a blanket to their local Homer shelter. And we're
gonna do that by partnering with companies that want to
give gifts to their employees of their customers. They can

(02:08:30):
now give a blanket as a gift and make a
difference in their local home and shelters. So it's answering
a huge question for tons of corporations around the United
States that are like, how can we make a difference
in our local communities. You can now give a blanket
as a gift and make a difference in your local community.
So what that's done is it's opened up the door
for us to work with organizations all around the United
States and partner with people like ben UH to run

(02:08:51):
a specific awareness campaigns to bring exposure and light to
organizations that are actually doing really good work on a
grassroots level. It's you know, prettybody out there listening. Cyclous
nash Is has quickly become one of the most um
prominent for purpose companies UH in the US, and UH

(02:09:12):
and obviously Generous is working really hard um to continue
to do good as well. You know for somebody like
Sackcloth nash Is, who have you have a platform, you
have a product, things are going well, why do you
partner with a company like Generous? I just had a
lot of respect for you personally, because you know, anybody
that gains following really quick, it's really fascinating to see

(02:09:35):
what they ultimately do with that platform. And I had
a lot of respect for you because you actually use
your platform to start something from the ground up. And
you know, I just have respect for anybody that's out
there trying to start something from the ground up. Is
entrepreneurship is incredibly difficult and of the time doesn't work out.
So the fact that you use the platform that you
had to actually start something from the ground up and

(02:09:57):
specifically start something from the ground up, that actually is
making a difference. That's what really drew me to what
you're doing. And you know, I'm a fan, I'm I'm
a supporter of anybody out there that's actually showing up
and trying to make stuff happen like that. And so yeah,
it's been a privilege to be able to partner with
you in Generous and being able to do this specific campaign. Yeah, well,

(02:10:17):
it sounds like I just teed myself up for a
really nice compliment there, Um, that's not you know, I
think Bob and I have got along really well because
I think Generous Mission to donate profits back to and
kind of be the engine that fuels nonprofits. They are
trying to make life change and Sackcloth and Nash is
a mission to blank the US and to help UM
people without homes feel known, be loved and have that blanket. Uh.

(02:10:40):
As we close out here, Bob, you said something this
morning as we had coffee that I think, is it
really hits home for me? Um, because blankets are so
much more uh than just a material item to have
in the whole. Why was blankets and why has been
blankets been so important to you? Yeah, we kind of
hit the jackpaw with blankets just because blankets was or

(02:11:01):
is a universal product. Everybody has blankets. Everybody deserves to
have a blanket, and blankets are an item of dignity
and comfort, you know. And and beyond that, ultimately, blankets
have become a third party object that's connecting me with
people that have incredible amount of resources and influence and
companies that have influence, and connecting me with the organizations

(02:11:23):
on a ground level that are showing up every single
day and actually doing the work on a grassroots level.
And I get to be the bridge builder. The blankets
become the connector where I actually get to have conversations
with these people that have resources and have a platform
to bring exposure and resources to the people that actually
need it right now. And the more that we focus
on issues in our society and our media, the more

(02:11:46):
issues we create, the more that we focus on solutions,
the better society we create. And so the blankets ultimately
are creating an opportunity for me to be able to
use my platform and invite other people to use their
platform to highlight solutions that are being created all around
the United States, UM that are doing good work to
help solve and UM bring some aid to the issue

(02:12:07):
of homelessness. So in summer, here's what's happening October through
UM and we'll probably let it run out a little
bit longer. UM. So if you listen to this and
you're like, oh, it's the thirty feet, it's okay. You
can still play UM. Type in the code generous when
you purchase a blanket online at sackcloth nash dot com.
With that, your local homeless shelter will receive a blanket.

(02:12:29):
Along with you will receive a bag of Generous coffee,
and then the l A mission is going to receive
twenty five of the proceeds from this campaign. We've talked
about it before and I want to say it again.
The only heroes in this are the consumers, and so
you have to purchase to make this campaign successful. Uh,

(02:12:49):
it's the holiday season. These are great holiday gifts. Um.
We're excited to be doing this together. And thank you
to I Heartful Attingness come on and talk about it
and also thinks that I heard for helping set up
kind of the press tour today. It's been a great
day and I am so excited to be able to
partner with people like Bob and his team of sack
Cloth nash Is along with Generous Um to make some

(02:13:11):
life change happen. And we're excited to do with you. Also, again,
that's sack Cloth Nash's dot com typing the code generous.
Follow the Bennon Ashley I Almost Famous podcast on iHeart
Radio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Ben Higgins

Ashley Iaconetti

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