Alien State, with MJ Banias

How can we better understand the growing, mainstream interest in UFOs? In this interview, Ben, Matt and Noel are joined by MJ Banias, host of Alien State, to explore his anthropological approach to humanity's attempt to understand those things it cannot yet explain. MJ agrees with Ben's description of UFOs as modern folklore -- and expands upon that concept.

They don't want you to read our book.: https://static.macmillan.com/static/fib/stuff-you-should-read/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called
me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer
or Alexis code name Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here, and that makes this the
stuff they don't want you to know. You could call
them UFOs, You can call them u a p s.

(00:46):
You can call yourself a skeptic. You can call yourself
a true believer in strange things in the sky. But
one thing is for sure. UFOs are part of the
mainstream conversation now more than any time since the UFO
craze of the fifties. We have been living through exciting times.

(01:09):
Mentioned this earlier on the air, Guys, but uh, it
was so funny. Amid the pandemic, the United States government
came out and said UFOs are real, we don't know
what's going on, and the American public pretty much went,
uh fine, I got I got other stuff, you know.
Collective shrug emoji you know, and it was a strange

(01:32):
time and this this continues and we um, but we
are very much invested in this ongoing conversation here on
stuff they don't want you to know. And fellow conspiracy realist,
you know, one of our favorite things to do is
to speak with experts in the field, regardless of what
field we are talking about. And that is why we are, uh,

(01:57):
you know, flying saucer over the moon to be speaking
today with the journalists, the educator, the creator of Alien State,
a podcast that dives deep into this conversation with m
J Benyas. M J. Thank you so much for coming

(02:18):
on the show with us today. I am honored to
be here. Thank you so much for having me. This
is unbelievable. Oh man, get out of here. You know
what we didn't mention is you're an author. Uh just
really quickly, before we even jump in, let's just go
over some of the the works you've created. I believe
one of the main ones is the UFO People, a
curious culture. Yeah. So um. In early I think or gosh,

(02:41):
I you ever remember anymore? Seventeen who knows anymore? I
wrote a book, yeah, called the UFO People, and it
was Um, it's a book about the UFO subculture as
a sort of collective um group that that sort of
has a very sort of similar belief system, ideological framework, whatever.
And I really wanted to sess out why do people,
even UFOs like what's going on here? And how does

(03:02):
it impact our culture in our society. So the book
is sort of like a subcultural analysis of of the
UFO community. And then that led to me sort of
engaging with Vice and I was their weird weird shit
guy for a while writing about UFOs and other spooky
things and other strange events, um. And then a ton

(03:24):
of that that just led to a bunch of other
projects with Vice and Popular Mechanics and and now Sony.
So um, yeah, it's been. It's been this kind of
trajectory of of I'm not sure how it happened, but
I was able to turn my weird sort of interest
in UFO subculture to somehow like a very prolific side
hustle that is like verging on main hustle, say, like

(03:48):
got you on a tractor beam and you're just right
and pulled up there. It is. I'm so glad that
we're starting with the UFO people because I really appreciated
your approach to this subject. I mean, let's be honest, J.
This is a world that is fraught with at times
problematic hyperbole. UH. And we'll get into move on, I hope,

(04:11):
in a little bit. But one thing about the book
is that you approach this concept of ufology and the
search for the unknown through UH a lens that I
find distinct. It is cultural exploration, there's anthropology to it.
It's critical thought, and I believe this makes it incredibly

(04:33):
different from many other books that publishers would say are
in the same field. You you talk about how this
book set you on a trajectory that in a very
real way led to our conversation today. But could you
tell us what inspired you to set about writing the work,

(04:53):
like writing the actual book. Are you one of those
you know did you have all right, I'll say it plainly,
did you see a UFO MJ? And say, I have
to know about I'm one of the few people in
this world who have I've never had a single UM
I guess you could say sort of euphological or paranormal experience.
I've never seen a ghost, I've never um seen a

(05:15):
strange light in the sky and was unable to sort
of figure out what it was after a bit of
you know, thinking and maybe some research. Um so so, No,
I have never seen anything strange. My interest sort of
was academic purely at the beginning. I was really just
interested in figuring out why people think about this subject
the way they do. And I have a background in

(05:35):
history and philosophy and culture studies. So for me, it
was just my jam my sort of academic interest and
it I guess, I guess that he kind of evolved
as I started doing the research. I realized that this
was a very kind of prolific mindset that exists amongst
people like you can, like I I say in the podcast,
you can walk into any bar in North America. You
can walk into any bar probably in the world and

(05:56):
just say, hey, have you ever seen anything weird? To
just like a table of people like any like ghosts, monsters, bigfoot, UFOs, aliens, whatever,
And you will get eventually, like fifty or sixty of
that bar will come to you sort of throw your
night there, and they'll be like, yeah, you know, my
mom saw something or my dad saw something, or my
brother or I or whatever, and all of a sudden
you have this these stories coming at you, and that's

(06:17):
how it all started. I just wanted to hear people's
stories because I maybe had never had my own experience,
and that's how it all began. It was just sort
of this collection of me trying to interview people and
have their stories written down, and then it evolved into
trying to have way too many stories. How do I
now boil this down into kind of like the key
key ideas that surround the UFO topic. It's interesting, I mean,

(06:39):
it really is kind of this modern folklore. You know,
all of the things you just kind of laundry listed,
you know, ghosts, the paranormal, UFOs, government cover ups, all
of these things. Everyone's got something to say, some inside
perspective or some scoop that that they think, you know,
they caught a glimpse of something mysterious that they want
to talk about. Um and it is largely passed around

(07:00):
in the same way as you know, these kinds of
stories of fairies and goblins and wizards and stuff were
passed around. It's like verbal you know, oral tradition like
at bars or around campfires or what have you. Um
with us, you know, every time someone asked us about
the show. We always start off by saying, it's a
critical thinking approach to conspiracy theories. And I think it's
very important caveat because it is a measured, you know,

(07:22):
thoughtful way of discussing these things that are, whether you
believe them or not, a very important part of the
fabric of kind of the world. Um. You are obviously
taking a very similar approach and kind of an academic
way of discussing these things, UM with real gravitas. Um.
How do you tell people what you do, uh, without
sounding like without making them think that it's sort of

(07:44):
fringe or like some kind of like out there whack
job kind of you know, side project. My my my
wife still doesn't know how to tell people what to
do for a living. Um, because it's just like I
don't actually know. I think the best way to describe
it is, at the end of the day, I'm on
a journalist and I I do journalism sort of that's
focused a lot on like science and tech, and you know,

(08:04):
I do some national security defense reporting and whatever, and
UFOs kind of fits into that that world, especially today
after seen Um, you know, UFOs became a national security
issue or at UFOs became like a national defense topic
of conversation. Literally, like Congress has like meetings and open
uh public hearings about it, and there's a Pentagon task force.

(08:25):
So so UFOs kind of, after Seen, really got themselves
wedged up into the sort of reporting that I'm currently doing. Um.
So it's easy today to say like, oh, yeah, I'm
I'm like you know, I'm a journalist. I cover you know,
national security and defense sometimes tech and whatever. UFOs are
kind of part of that. But before Seen, it was

(08:45):
just like I was just really into writing about the
culture as you as you said the folklore of UFOs,
because UFOs very much are a folkloric idea. All conspiracy
theories are folkloric in nature, right, Um, they sort of
have to be. And and I guess I guess the
best way that I've kind of always talked about it
when people start asking me like what you do, I mean, Um,

(09:09):
these are stories. Right at the end of the day,
I'm sort of a collector of stories because humans have
been telling stories about weird ship for really really really
long time. Um, and we still do. Um. And the
big question that I want to answer as a journalist
maybe is is are we telling those stories because there's
something to them, something like objectively real out there that

(09:29):
is that is influencing the creation of these stories. Or
is it's something that's kind of just inherently human. Is
just something about us we are just genetically and and
sociologically driven to create stories, you know? Is that something
just kind of inherently built within us? So so you know,
I kind of vacillate between both of these ideas all

(09:50):
the time. You know, at times you look at some
UFO stuff or you know, paranormal stuff, you're just like, oh, yeah,
this is just humans being humans, right, We're just making
shut up because that's how we how we function as
a society and have for you know, a hundred thousand years.
And then there's the other side where it's like, you know,
but you know, maybe something weird did happen and something
is influencing this story, um, some kind of anon less

(10:11):
event from the outside, and and it's yeah, you know,
I'll never I'm not sure if you'll ever really know.
That's that's the problem. So, first off, when everything you're saying,
I felt like one of those people, uh in one
of those people in in a Pentecostal church. I was
slowly going mm mmmm mmm mmmm. Amen. Because, Uh, the

(10:33):
reason that I describe so many conspiratorial thoughts or theories
as modern folklore is because of those commonalities that you
find yourself vacillating between in your work as a reporter. Uh,
you know how much of this is just humans using

(10:55):
pattern recognition and confirmation biased to craft a narrative. Why
do stories about of the Fay folk abducting children and
alien abductions have beat for beat the same story notes?
These are these are questions that, like you said, maybe
difficult to answer, but you have dived so deep into

(11:22):
attempting to at least explore those questions with people who
believe they do have the answer. And Uh, that's that's
gotta be. Um, that's gotta be a strange position at times,
because you've spoken with UM and you do speak with
in Alien State folks who are very convinced of specific things,

(11:45):
right even to the point where they might say, Hey,
this other person is dis info or this other person
is UM well intentioned but incorrect. But I have the
insight and I can tell you. And with this, I
want to introduce a recurring character in Alien State, Tom DeLong.

(12:06):
We've talked about Matt Nolan. I have spoken about Tom
DeLong and then to the Stars Academy, but you speak
directly with Tom in alien state, UM, and that I
think these are questions you and I are both dying
to ask. I'm not sure where to start. Well, this
is what I would say. Three months before September eleven,

(12:27):
we took off our pants and we jacked it and
we we loved it. But did we ever? Uh? And
that was you know, that was what Tom Geelong was
was known for. Right, Sorry, that was a reference to
an album. Everybody doesn't get it. Blink two times so
that we know. But but then in two thought you

(12:51):
mentioned MJ. Then, you know, sixteen years later, to have
that same guy that we were all rocking in, you know,
for me it was like my first vehicle, which was
a van. Sorry everyone, um. But now to have him
come out and like with a straight face, you know,
say like I've got this information and I'm going to

(13:12):
share it with you about a secret UFOs and in
a program and all this stuff and aliens like just
take us there to that moment and what occurred in
seventeen to really change the narrative and the discussion yeah, sure.
So so somewhere in twenty fift actually DeLong sixteen, DeLong
leaves Blink eighty two and he kind of goes on
his own um and and you know, I mean I

(13:35):
blink an e two was like my high school right,
like it was. It was played at every dance ever. Um. So,
so you know when it this happened, I was a
holy shit, like I can't believe, you know, Tom left
Blink um. And then there was like he starts kind
of popping up more frequently the UFO world and it's
kind of this un everyone kind of knew in the

(13:56):
UFO beat. Everyone kind of knew DeLong was into UFOs,
like this was this is not a secret. And because
he was at conferences, he'd shoop at UFO conferences often,
he'd show up at kind of other paranormal conferences and
hang on the back. And you know, there was this
kind of understanding that tommed along from liquin into was here,
but it was like not discussed very much. It was
just kind of kept down low. And then all of

(14:18):
a sudden hits on October he makes this big announcement
that he's starting this company, and it's like a live
video presentation there. They're like a public service company that
raising like I want to raise like fifty million dollars.
There's something shares and this idea stems of of you know,
I've connected, this is Tom. I've connected with a bunch
of government insiders as well as people from like defense contractors,

(14:40):
and we are going to do and create a sort
of a scientific research organization that will merge entertainment with
science to to like do UFO research and and reverse
The idea was to reverse engineer the physics and the
engineering to build our own like fucking spaceship um that

(15:04):
will be able to travel faster than light. And there
was like a mock up of it, and and he
brought these these people in and I mean it was like,
I mean, like your jaw like hit the floor. I
mean this sounded completely batshit crazy, and we a, it
sounds unbelievable. I mean it totally tracks a little bit.

(15:24):
But you're so, you're so, so this happens in October
and and people are like what the funk? And and
he has these people standing next to him on stage,
and then you know, journalists like kind of like looking
into who these people are, Like no, sure as ship.
That guy was like Defense secretary and sure as ship
that guy ran lockeed Martin skunk Works, like who, like
what is happening right? Like there was this two month

(15:45):
period of like scrambling to figure out how these people
were involved. Tom DeLong and his company were kind of
speaking to certain journalists and not others. There was very
much a sort of year the with us or against
us mentality. So then you need to start like again journalistically,
and all journalists, all journalists do this is you start
trying to figure out how do you get your sources
and how do you figure out how to win them

(16:07):
over to your side so that you can get the
whole story. And then like obviously there's always like that
potential like I haven't always tell the truth, and if
the truth is ugly, I may end up slitting your throat.
But it's the truth. I have to publish it. So
you have this moment of like back and forth for
two months and people are like, this is just Tom
DeLong has gone crazy, He's gone completely nut. He's gonna
build a spaceship. And then in December, like these pilot

(16:28):
videos dropped two months later from the Navy of like
fighter pilots encountering sort of these unknown objects in the sky,
and all of a sudden, everyone's like, oh my god,
Like Tom DeLong was right the whole fucking time, right
like like we should have put our faith in like
Tom for president, right, Like that's kind of what happened, right,

(16:48):
Correct me if I'm wrong. The videos you're mentioning, is
that the tic tac video. Yeah, so so sort of
two videos dropped, and the third one was released a
few weeks later. I don't remember how long. It was,
like four weeks or so by we had two videos.
One was the tik tak video from two thousand and
four off the Pacific coast. The second one was called
the Gimbal video, which happened in sorry, in June off

(17:11):
the off of the coast of Florida. And and then
the third video was connected to the gimbal video. It
was the same thing, just like a different angle or
as like a day later, so it was related to
the same incident. And and these so these videos drop
and there's a New York Times article about it, and
it's like the New York Times just said that there's
a UFO program and there's pilot seeing UFOs and the

(17:32):
nation is not safe, and it's like, oh my god,
what the hell? Um, And it started everyone off down
this journey of like trying to figure out what the
whole story was. UM. But as we do in the podcast,
you know, we start peeling away the layers of who
these people are, who they're talking to, how they're all
connected to one another, and what the story really is,
and all of a sudden you realize that this is

(17:54):
much more convoluted and complicated and it's not how it
seems on the surface, like like there's more going on
in the background that um is the stuff they don't
want you to know. Basically, thanks Ja, but you've you've
actually spent some time, you know, talking with Tom Um,
which is honestly something I think we would very much
like to do as well one day. But he's a

(18:17):
really thoughtful guy. I mean, you know, he definitely is
a smart dude. He he was very smart with his money. Um.
He left Blake what he too because he wanted to pursue,
you know, something completely different. I think he was just
tired of the limelight and only being known as this
kind of nasal singing like emo boy or mallpunk rather um,
and he has a lot to say. Can you talk
a little bit about what he's like as a person,

(18:39):
like the level with which he carries himself and the
passion that he kind of has behind these ideas. Tom's great, Like,
I'll be honest, straight up, he just he was. He
was fun to talk to. UM. He he is really
respectful and and he tries his best to answer the
questions he can. I think Tom is generally like a
smart guy. He's no fool. You know, he's significantly more

(19:02):
successful than I will ever be in my life. And
I agree with you, I think. I think for him,
he he got to a point in his life where
he should listen, I've made my money, I've made my wealth.
I don't I don't need to make any more money, right,
And he made the wise decision of realizing I'm going
to just pursue what I'm interested in and at the
end of the day, right, like when you're lying on
your deathbed, you never like lie there and say to yourself, Man,

(19:23):
I wish I made more money, Right, You wish for
like more times you could do what you want to do,
um and experience as much as you can. So so
I think that's what he did. And and and good
for him. Um and he started really at the end
of the day playing people. UM. He started to talk
to specific individuals within the United States government, and then
he would tell other individuals in the United States government
that he was talking to these people, and they knew

(19:43):
each other, so they like talk yeah I talked to yeah, okay.
And then suddenly he started basically doing good espionage, and
he started talking to people who are kind of connected
in this world, within the United States government or within
defense contractors, saying that like, oh he was named. He's
name dropping names, and all of a sudden, he's building
this web of influence around him until he's ready to say,

(20:03):
all right, let's do this. I'm starting a UFO company.
And they're like, oh yeah, if you're talking to this guy,
I'm in. And they just start like signing up like yeah,
in in, in, And Tom did what he did good
or ill, doesn't matter. He did because he loves it,
um and and and it's amazing. I think that's terrific.
I think where it's complicated is when you start, um

(20:25):
leading let's say the discourse. When you start like leading
the conversation about a specific topic, let's say, like the
UFO topic, you now don't need to be really honest
with yourself, like is this the voice of the person
who should be leading it or is this like me?
And there was a lot of pushback from the UFO people,
Like the UFO people were like, we don't want Tom
DeLong being like the UFO pope because of like the
other ship he sometimes says, which just sounds totally crazy,

(20:48):
and there was like drama and and so mad. Props
to Tom for being amazing, but you know, the UFO
people were very much like e galvanized in two parties
like pro Tom or against Tom, and there's like no
one in the middle, but terrific person. Yeah, that that
makes sense because you know, for many, many years, for decades,

(21:10):
there were people who were existing in the world of
ufology and they were perhaps um one could even say,
superstars in that field in their own right, but very
much not mainstream. So we can, I think we can
exercise the empathy to understand they feel like, hey, this
guy already has everything and now he's coming in and

(21:34):
we think he's a tourist who is now appointing himself president.
But I'm sure he doesn't see it that way. UM.
I do want to touch on something that that you mentioned.
The idea of disclosure is inextricably intertwined with the concept
of conspiracy. Right. The gist of the the legend here

(21:59):
is that these things are real and I explained them
as insert here. Depending on whom you're speaking with, the
government knows, and they want, for one reason or another
to hide it from the public. Uh. And you know
it's no secret that uh Tom DeLong at times has

(22:19):
stated that he does feel there is some sort of
cover up a foot and he is by no means
unique in that belief. Um. When you encounter people who
not only believe uh in you know, their particular version
of a UFO narrative, but also believe there is a

(22:40):
cover up of foot, Um, how how do you respond
to that? M And do you see do you hear
people um alleging the same conspiracy? And so what I
think this this now verges into sort of really like
dubious territory, right, because you have, Okay, when you're talking

(23:01):
to people and they believe there's a UFO cover up
of some sort, right, typically of the time it's like
this just innocent belief they have um that that won't
really influence like their life or or or like like
popular discourse, right. Um. But then you have segments within
the UFO community who are very vocal, who hold a

(23:24):
lot of sway in the sense that they have a
lot of followers let's say through social media or on
YouTube or Facebook or whatever. Um, and they do kind
of hold court. As you said, they were sort of
like the big players, the big actors within this world.
And Tom DeLong kind of nicely wedged himself in there. Um.
And and they hold sway let's say, over like a
million YouTube subscribers, and they start saying there's a government

(23:45):
cover up there, the government is lying to us about UFOs,
there's a shadow government or a deep state that is
purposefully misleading us um. And a lot of these narratives
will often then go into stuff to to discuss like
their per purposefully hiding the UFOs from us because they
know that it's going to upset the oil industry, and
the oil barons are the ones who run the government,

(24:06):
and actually the big oil and big pharma are actually
working together, and they don't want this to come out
because if the UFO technology does come out, well, it's
gonna be life changing. There'll be no more poverty, there'll
be no more scarcity. Right, everything's gonna be like like
futuristic Star Trek level shit. Um, but what's stopping us
is the deep state, Right, what's stopping us is this cabal.

(24:28):
And then all of a sudden you start getting into
really dubious like but you know there's people who are
working against us, right, there's patriots, there's there's um uh,
you know, Donald Trump has publicly said he would release
UFO information, whereas this presidential candidate is not. And then
it starts to verge into like actual conspiracist narratives to

(24:49):
the point where you have individuals who, for example, have
committed heinous, tragic murders of people, and they had a
UFO sticker and it was like, I believe in disclosure,
strapped side of their van um and like, you know,
tell us the truth about aliens because that's part of
their kind of um conspiratorial kind of ideological framework that

(25:09):
UFOs are just another aspect of that. So so you
can very easily draw connections between like let's say, the
Q and non conspiracy and the UFO crowd. You can
very easily draw lines between the anti vax community and
the UFO crowd. You can very easily draw lines between
sort of neo Nazi white supremacist movements and the UFO crowd.
It's not like a big segment of it, but it's

(25:30):
definitely an aspect of the subculture that that really percolates
under the uh, under the surface that doesn't make CNN
or doesn't make funt well, Fox News. It doesn't make
CNN makes Fox News all the time, doesn't make um,
you know, other sort of mainstream headlines. But there very
much is this kind of coalescing of conspiracy narratives, and

(25:51):
UFOs fit perfectly into it. Um. You know, we were
I was tracking particular sort of UFO celebrity and he
shows up on the rush in State Um the media
RT um all the time as a as a spokesperson
talking about how the CIA killed his friends. Um, they're
hiding secrets from the United States government or sorry, they're
hiding secrets from the world rather than the Unitiates government.

(26:13):
Is the CIA can't be trusted. And obviously RT loves
this guy because he's literally doing their job for them, right.
He's literally he's an American who's creating disinformation for them
without them having to try, and then they just put
that on loop on YouTube, right, and it just it
shows up on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, wherever, TikTok, and all
of a sudden, you know, like Russian state media is

(26:36):
is able to take shots at sort of the democratic
systems that have been created, um, and start kind of
peeling them down. And I mean, you know, January six happened.
I mean you know, I mean like it's it's it's
literally you can see how these all intertwined together. Um,
And that's when things get scary for people, and especially
for me as a journalist. We'll pause here for a
word from our sponsor and be right back and we're

(27:04):
back with more from m J. So, m J, I'm
thinking about what you're saying about this belief that there's, uh,
there's some kind of unseen force within the government that's
like feeding disinformation, holding us back, and you know, all
these things. I just want to relate it back to
something that did happen within the UFO community. I think

(27:27):
it was in the eighties early eighties, a guy named
Bill Moore. I'm sure you know some about this. We
we just put it in our book that's coming out
in October, by the Way to First book. UM. But
it's the concept that there was disinformation being fed to
the UFO community at large by a single person who's
working with a documentarian who you know, wanted to create

(27:51):
media much in the same way that To the Stars
wants to be this entertainment company that is disseminating information,
but you know, hopefully real information where they're trying to
read truth, but they were being lied to. I just
I want to relate that back to our current scenario
and situation with Two the Stars, like do you see
anything like that happening? Does it feel like anything like
that is happening? The Bill Moore situation is interesting and

(28:13):
where this is all I think where a lot of
these ideas came from of like that there is a
sort of active disinformation project within the government. The inherent
problem though, is is we can't really link the specific
Air Force UM agent to his superiors who told him
to do that. For example, he makes the claim that
that's the case, but there's no documentation paperwork, There's there's

(28:36):
no way that that can be confirmed. Um And and
generally the consensus I think falls to this guy just
act alone. He was an Air Force UM investigator. He
was technically an intelligence officer for the U S. Air Force,
but he wasn't given the order by someone above him

(28:58):
to funk with this guy and and and funk with
the EVA community. That was not a standing thing for
him to do. He just did it UM for whatever reasons.
And it could be a bunch, whether it's financial or
glory or fame or just have fun whatever. So so
the whole Bill Moore thing is interesting, but what it's
really done is it's laid this kind of interesting patchwork

(29:20):
and kind of seeded the ground for now that Tom
DeLong has stepped out and said in seen, here's all
of these people from the US government that I have
a lot of people, especially the the UFO group that
was the celebrity prior to Tom DeLong really came out
and said, listen, this is all disinformation. We've been here before,
guys like like like lu Alesondo and Chris mel and

(29:41):
all these guys, they're all disinformation agents sent by the
government because you know, Bill Moore happened, UM and Richard
Doughty happened, and that that's a thing in the past
that we should be learning from Meanwhile, I think, you know,
there's no real evidence to indicate that lu Alesondo was
given the order to create misinformation or disinformation or to

(30:02):
do counterintelligence work within the folk community. There's no standing
order for Chris Mellon to do. Like, there's just that
doesn't exist. There's no way to connect those dots back, um,
because you can't find them. There's no one who's come
forward to said that's the case. Um. I think rather
what's happening is and the reason why the show is
literally called alien State is because I think within the
government you have individuals who are really into this stuff,

(30:26):
and they sort of form a little alien state inside
the larger context of the government, and they are interested
in this topic. So they are going to work themselves
to push this topic out into the mainstream as best
they can. Um. It's the same way you have um,
right wing kind of Christian fundamentalist individuals within the US

(30:49):
government who are pushing a Christian um kind of you know,
right wing ideology onto the American public because that's what
they personally believe. Um. You know, it's it's the same
idea that the difference is that obviously the right wing
Christian fundamentalism thing is is like taking a lot more
root compared to like the alien state, but I think
it's the same concept. Um. I think lou Elizondo kind

(31:12):
of just did said what he said he did. He
kind of just left and was like, fuck this ship.
I believe in UFOs and aliens. I'm going to make
this a big deal. Chris Mellen kind of did the
same thing, and I think Jim some event kind of
did the same thing. And Tom DeLong kind of brought
them all together because he was able to connect those
dots and and did it. Um. There is no like conspiracy.
It's just these people all were like, let's just make

(31:33):
this a big fucking deal and go, And that's what
they did. Um, and here we are today. Yeah. You know,
I love that analogy because I think there's often a
a tendency in the public to think of a government
as a monolithic power structure instead of groups of people

(31:54):
who often disagree and have their own, you know, agendas
or the things they want their desires. M J twelve
is incredibly interesting to me. Majestic twelve. You're m J one.
We're talking about Yeah, yeah, you're g m J g MG. Yeah, sorry,
Mary Jane, you've got spider Man. You can just coast

(32:17):
on that. So what what's fascinating about this is that
it creates a UM, the concept of a monolithic government,
right instead of a bunch of people just sort of
trying to look like they know what they're doing, which
is the human condition. A monolithic government combined with this UM,

(32:40):
this beautiful framework that says anyone I disagree with in
the UFO sphere is therefore a disinformation agent. They're not
just wrong, they're purposely wrong. And you must listen to
me to learn the truth. That seems like some thing
that has bedeviled this field for UM for quite some time,

(33:07):
I would think, even before UH Majestic twelve and the
Bill Moore debacle. But I'm I'm interested in the idea
of competing views or contradictory views among the people that
you have spoken with and encountered, not just not just

(33:28):
an alien state, but in your work in vice UM.
Could you talk a little bit about the the discord
not servers, but like the discord UH that you find
in in the community, And could you tell us a
little bit about UM the people who are generally seen

(33:51):
as quote unquote disinfo agents and the people who are
generally seen as legit is there is there a number
one bad person? Is there a number one person? Well, listen,
I mean you just that that is like the whole
Volk community, so so so you know, I think I
think it depends on who side you're on. This is
why I think uphology will never become a scientific field

(34:14):
or a scientific um sort of study. And the key
reason is because you followed itself doesn't agree to a
certain term of like factual like baseline data, right um,
Because uthology is probably primarily kind of fractured and always
has been and always will be into different sort of
sects and schools and frames of thought. It's aliens or

(34:36):
it's interdimensional beings or it's um time traveling humans or
government secrets or whatever, and you have this fracturing. So
so it's very difficult for different individuals within the EU
folk community at times, so sort of engage in sort
of good conversation because then it becomes a fight of
of what beliefs you have. Um. So that's sort of
number one. So with that in mind, right, um, you

(35:00):
autom I can give an example when Luis Alazando first
went public and Chris Mellon and the rest of them.
With the Tom DeLong, you had an immediate gut reaction
within certain elements of THEO community um because it was like,
hold on a second, this guy who's a counter intelligence
officer whose job has literally been for decades to um

(35:22):
lie to some people in order to get the truth
out of them and then use that truth to to
like at times do sort of things that you know,
the US government has done that maybe it ought not
to be proud of, but you know, is a thing
so so automatical. People are like, holy shit, like why
are we Why are we trusting him? Why are we
putting all our our faith in this guy from the government,

(35:44):
this counter intelligence agent. And then you had the people
on the other side being like, well, no, no, like
he's he's on our side now right, he's he's gone
rogue and he's a whistle blower and he's with us,
and he's here to tell us the truth about UFOs
UM And then like you have him later saying you
know this department I worked for was engaged in a
cover up about UFOs. Don't trust them. And then people

(36:05):
like see, like he just said his own department you
can't trust it. And then now that department has a
new UFO task force, and then the same people on
the other or the other people on the other side
of like, but they have a task force and they're
gonna be investigating UFOs and that's amazing, and they're gonna
have money and big funding and and but it's never
gonna become public because I'll be classified, like and then
the people like, see it's people being classified now. Now

(36:26):
we're never gonna get the information. It's all gonna get
locked down. We're basically fucked. UFOs is over. Everyone go
study Bigfoot now, Like you have this back and forth
all the time. And then oh my gosh, you guys,
I'm going full I'm going full Canadian here. Okay, um,
we're at the Timmy's now talking over double double Um.
You then have the other people who are saying, oh, no,

(36:46):
the aliens have been here all the time. In fact,
they're communicating with us and me right now. And if
we sit and meditate, or if we channel, or if
we do whatever, the aliens are gonna come through and
they'll appear for us and they'll blink lights at us.
We don't need Alesando and the governant people to help us.
Their liars, they're just trying to, you know, blow up Russia.
Our plan is to engage in peaceful contact with like

(37:08):
the Galactic Federation, and and I mean it's it's I mean,
it becomes preposterous after that. And I mean it was
preposterous well before, but it was you know, we're really
going down the rabbit hole. And these factions fight each
other constantly, and you know, Louis Alisando has said on
his Twitter before that like, don't trust these people. They're
engaged in disinformation. They're crooks, they're just trying to steal

(37:30):
your money. They're basically a cult. And these people on
the side, I said, don't trust Louis Alisando. This is
what he did in his past. This is who he is.
He's a disinformation guy for the government. Don't trust the government.
And it just explodes into an argument of flame war
on Twitter. Of of then the armies of both of
these groups fighting one another, trolling each other, and there

(37:52):
you are, we essentially have a credibility problem here, you
know what I mean? Right, well, well that's exactly that's
the crux of of why you say this could never
really truly be a science because so much of it
is based in belief. Like it's not all based on
empirical evidence. So much of it is based on belief.

(38:12):
Not only belief in the great beyond and and and
things that we will never be able to maybe fully
experience or touch or see, but belief in who to believe. Yeah, right,
and just like you guys said earlier, right, like like
belief that there is a conspiracy and belief that there's
a cover up either the aliens are covering up or
the government's covering it up. Um And like you mentioned,

(38:34):
like the government is like one giant, monolithic structure when
when really isn't. There's like seventeen or eighteen intelligence agencies
within the United States government, all working for different bosses,
all functioning other different branches or other under various branches
of the military of military. I mean, they don't like
each other generally, they don't work together half the time. Um.

(38:55):
And And it's like, how could you possibly think that
this is all unified? I mean, look at the United States,
it's fractured beyond belief. If the government was monolithic, it
wouldn't be so like divided all the time. Um. It's
because as you say, it's human nature, right. People want
to think they have a handle on it um and
and really we don't. It's pandemonium. I gotta tell you

(39:16):
I had that reaction. I think it's episode one of
Alien State where sim Evan comes in Jim Simmovan or
maybe six. I'm sorry, I can't remember exactly which episode.
There's an episode of Alien State where you introduced Jim
Simmovan and I had that initial reaction really thinking about
him and his role right or his like what was

(39:37):
it like forty years or something he worked as a
CIA asset and he comes in. He's saying, oh, I
read this book that Tom DeLong was a part of
about secret Machines, and I was like, oh man, he's
got a bunch of stuff right, not everything, but some stuff,
but I can't tell you the parts that he got right.
And my instinct was like, Oh, this dude's gonna go

(40:00):
in there and wreck everything. He's gonna like feed him disinformation.
And it's just my initial reaction to hearing that there's
an x C I as set that's interested enough personally
in this stuff that he's going to insert himself into
the situation. Jim some event is a beautiful, beautiful person,
like he is like the nicest guy to let me right. Um,
But yeah he was, and he wasn't as he was

(40:20):
a c I A a human his intelligence officers here
and especially with human intelligence. So his job was to
go into a place and be like, this guy over
here has information we want or need. Um. So Jim's
job was to go in, become friends with the guy,
and then basically turn that guy into an asset. Um.
So right, So his job is to go in, figure

(40:40):
out what your weaknesses are, what your pressure points are,
or or how they can befriend you and then bring
you into the inner circle of of Jim. And you know, listen,
you have information. We want to help you. We can
get you out, we can pay you, we can you know,
we can find that you're having an affair with somebody
and we'll use that against you if we need to,
um whatever. But these becomes kind of very intimate relations
ships where where you now have somebody who typically works

(41:03):
for foreign government and is now providing you information from
that foreign government in exchange for X. Jim is a
wonderful human. This is what he does for a living,
or what he did for a living right. So when
he had to go suss Tom out, there's a bit
of like the old CIA brain kicks and of like
oh shit now. The other thing too, though, is with Jim,
he's also admitted he has been a long time fan

(41:24):
and believer of not just UFOs but generally the esoteric
and the occult um. He is very much into sort
of the more sort of fringe topics. So when he
says Tom got some stuff right, we really need to like,
is that stuff what? What? What is actually right? Like
objectively correct or is it just what Jim thinks is

(41:45):
right based upon the reading he's done and the people
he's communicated with who also share similar beliefs with him,
and and the big thing about the book Secret Machines
was that there was a crash flying saucer alien ship.
The American government reverse engineered it and was able to
create a vehicle that a pilot could sit in and
fly without controls. You'd think it the aircraft would do it, right,

(42:08):
And that's how the aliens fly around, right. They they
don't have control panels. They just sit there and it's
it's telepathy or remote viewing or clairvoyance. That was kind
of the that's his book. You know, I think Jim's
under the impression that this technology exists, UM, that the
United States government is developing this technology. Unfortunately, Jim's background
of the CIA would not really give him access to
that information. Like he was on an aerospace guy, right,

(42:30):
he was. He was a spy UM and he spought
up spied on humans, not necessarily like aerospace. So again
you have to kind of wigh that in your assessment,
like does Jim really know or is just Jim talking
to people who say they know? And then why are
those people saying they know these things? And how are
they connected to this? And then again you start going
down the rabbit hole. You read too much. Stephen Greer
in the ce fives right there, you go, Yeah, hold

(42:56):
the phone, we're gonna take a quick break. We're gonna
hear some words from our answers, and then we'll be
back with more of this incredible conversation with m J.
And we've returned. I think for people who are more
on the outside, the the average person who sees that

(43:19):
New York Times article or who reads UM, reads something
on Reddit or what have you, uh, they they may
also make the same mistake that people make about insert
government here. They often it's easy to think of the
world of UFOs as this monolithic thing largely in agreement

(43:43):
with itself. That with that in mind, and I greatly
appreciate you pointing out that it is very much not
um One thing. I would love to ask, what is
one of the strangest conversations that you have had in
your time working in this field, Because you've been in

(44:05):
the trenches. I'm sure you have some war stories. Okay,
I'll give you sure, this is this is some of
the Okay, there's a lot. Okay, well let me let
me me with but there are a lot of weird stories.
So what weird means depends on like who you are
as a person like and I've heard everything from I
personally have been referred to and like directly informed to

(44:28):
my face by a person that I am a ci
A like operative trying to create skepticism within the UFL
world to undermine UM like right, and it's just like, well,
first of I'm Canadian, so no, Secondly, like my like
have you seen my home? And I wish I wish

(44:49):
I was you know, um so, so you know, FMJ
is just trying to enjoy in Italiana and some wedges
over there at Timmy's. That's right. Did you look up
the menu Timmy? So so, so you know, I've had
a lot of weird I've been called a reptilian alien before,
like so, so, I have gone down the weirdest places

(45:11):
the moment, I guess that that has really Let's the
impacted me was. I was working on a docuseries with
Vice land On on a UFO cult and and this
woman ran an online UFO cult that is really just
shades of current cults that exist in the UFO world,
um and and um it basically everyone's reptilian. They clone
each other. Long story short, but part of her financial

(45:35):
system was she created this thing called Orgone. And I'm
sure you guys have talked about Orgon before on the show,
which is for you guys everyone who doesn't know. It's
sort of like, um, you take a bunch of like
rocks and metal and shove it into a resin and
you bake it and then it forms a pock usually
and and allegedly the way this stuff is designed is
it keeps aliens, evil spirits, you insert any sort of

(45:59):
bad cult ship, keeps it away. Bus clouds. Yeah, yeah,
that's right. It often within chem trail conspiracy theories, right,
it breaks up the chemicals and stuff in in the
So you're so the cam trails don't don't affect you anyway.
This woman, UM, this cult leader, she a lot of
her money came from making and selling Orgon and in
the show I was for this, For this documentary, I

(46:20):
was hired as a consultant researcher. I was able to
track down the woman she made it with. The cult
leader was was was deceased, but the woman who made
the organ was still alive. So so I was able
to track her down and I reached out to her
as as a buyer. UM. I pretended to be somebody
who was being like affected by these entities in my home.

(46:40):
I had been listening to this cult leaders sort of
YouTube show and podcasts and I was under the impression
I told this person that that this is what was
going on. Well, this this woman reached out contact me back,
said this is what you need to do, and she
basically started selling me Orgon as best she could, like
the pocks that the Orgon blaster machine, UM, appendance that

(47:00):
my family could wear UM. And I remember having this
weird moment of of I was pretending to be this
buyer and and she was telling me about how my daughter,
who was being impacted by the evil entities in our house,
needed to where it was a crucifix with like an
Oregon piece inside it that this woman had made, and
she says this will keep her safe from the devil

(47:21):
as well as the evil reptilian aliens that are in
your home. And I had this fundamental moment like holy
sh it, like what if this woman actually finds out
who I am, where I live, what I'm doing. She
probably will now because she probably since this show, But
like what happens if she's able to track me down?
And like how stable is this individual that they believe
this or is this just a con? They're just doing

(47:41):
it to make money and like sucking it puts my
kids through college. Um, And I had this kind of
weird moment of like I was told that this is
what I needed to do to prack my house from
the evil aliens and and I'm I'm like soaking all
this in and I'm just like nodding, and I'm like, yeah, no,
for sure, I agree, Um, what are you thinking about this?
And I'm trying to get the financial information with this
cult leader on how how much money they made, right,

(48:03):
And it was like it was in like it was
nearing a hundred grand in Oregon sales that kept this
cult leader funded to keep going. Um. Eventually we got there,
but you had to I had to build trust with
this individual to kind of get there. Um. And it
was like diming out my wife and kids for like
even reptilian aliens and and Oregon sales. Um. And that

(48:24):
was my weirdest moment of like, oh shit, I'm I'm
in it now and I have to like go to ground.
And I had like I I created a whole online
profile like Facebook, email whatever, had a fake name and everything,
and I just burned it all down after I was done. Um,
but it was it was it was a spooky moment
of like this person was like, you tell me everything
about the reptilians as you see. Well I didn't see reptiliens.

(48:45):
I said, they're kind of like entities. Tell me about them.
Are they shadows? Do they roam down your do they
visit you in your bedroom while you sleep? Or is
it while you're awake? And it was like, um, and
I'm just making stuff up as some going based upon
what I knew about this cult leader and just trying
to fit it into this worldview. And it was like
on her end just eating it up right, It was like,
tell me more, tell me more, Well, this is what
you need. This is the product you need, tell me more,

(49:06):
tell me more. Oh, this is the product you need
for that right, And I was like whole like, this
person is either really good at selling or they are
one they believe it outright, and both of those are scary, right, Like,
both of those are really scary that you're willing to
sell bullshit to that extent or you believe it to
that extent. I'm like, ah, So that was my weirdest

(49:26):
story of pretending to be an Orgon buyer um and
and having to deal with his cult follower and then
burning your persona after I vanished. I literally had to vanish. Yeah,
I respect your opset. That's pretty cool. So many people
listen to the show. I mean, there are probably many
believers out there who have something either from their past,
from the culture, from you know, their family, something like

(49:48):
an evil eye that you put up in your house
to keep away ward spirit, you know, ward away evil
spirits and things like that. It's just such the through
line of that kind of belief is so old it
feels to me. And this is why PEND it feels
like the Oregon thing is just kind of an evolution
of some of those older ideas with the crucifix, right
like where it's going to protect you, some unknown force

(50:09):
or some known force that is unseen is going to
protect you. I really just I want to ask one
last question. I know we're running pretty late here, um,
I'm thinking about all of these, Um, the UFO research
is happening right now within the government, within these private organizations,
the stuff that you're reporting on, m J. And I'm

(50:29):
imagining the SR Semini one and the B two bomber. Uh,
these two huge pieces of secret tech that the United
States government paid contractors like Northrop Grumman to create, you know,
in secret for as long as they needed to, and
test them as long as they needed to until they're operational,
and then even then keep them secret so that the

(50:51):
enemy doesn't know the tech that we have and how
advanced it is, and that our SR seventy one can
go eight tho feet in the air unlike any other
craft that's operational right now, or the B two can
fly over your country and nobody will even know it
was there. Um. I'm just you know, if you think
about that, what was that ben SR seventy one was sixties?

(51:11):
I think it was like nineteen four or something like that. Um.
And then the B two bomber, the stealth bomber, the
one that looks like the big V in the area,
the cool one. I mean, that's I mean, that's like
eighties nineties, right. I have to imagine with the way
our technology has advanced from the phone I was using,

(51:33):
uh in the eighties, to the phone that my you know,
my parents were using in the sixties, to what could
be flying around there right now that was created in
skunk works. And I do wonder how much of this
current movement towards disclosure, towards at least even just the
excitement in the in the popular mind, how much of

(51:54):
that is just really skunk works in the things they've
been creating since the nineties. Are and I mean, you
know like that that's a that's a big theme, right,
Like are these just test craft that we're seeing right? Um?
Are these just sort of you know, misidentified vehicles that
that we're building or somebody else's building, like a foreign government.
I mean, that's a massive, massive aspect of the UFO

(52:16):
discourse that that's all we're really seeing. We're just seeing
test craft, because we know for a fact that test
craft were seen, Like we know for a for a
fact that the SR seventy one was spotted a whole
bunch of times, and it was choked up to UFO
citing um sending with the B two right and and
and if somebody sees a test craft, the United States
government isn't going to go out of their way and say,
oh no, no no, listen, listen, it's just a secret plane work.
And they just gonna be like, yeah, UFOs whatever, man

(52:37):
like I don't I don't give a ship. Sure, yeah,
you keep go ahead, Um, good to UFOs are great,
like go nuts, like, yeah you saw that. Um it's
the same thing that happened at Roswell, right. Um. You
know the Roswell, New Mexico story was a downed um
spy balloon that that the United States Air Force had
no interest in exposing because it was being used to
spy on Russian atomic weapons tests. Um. And it wasn't

(52:58):
exposed until any four, when the Air Force said, yeah,
this is what it was. Was a balloon basically, and
we can talk about it now because the technology is
so archaic it doesn't matter. We don't use them anymore,
but this is what what it was. Um during the
you know, eighties and you know seventies and eighties, when
the Roswell story really became a big thing, there was
no interest in the part of the Air Force to
like be like, no, I listen, guys, it was a balloon.

(53:19):
Like we're gonna tell you the truth. Like why, like
your opinion that it's a UFO or a crash doesn't
really matter to us. Now in hindsight, like looking back
at it in a post Trump world, you know, maybe
the government needs to be a bit more open because
at the end of the day, what it's only doing
this building conspiratorial narratives. And in the eighties and nineties,
those conspiratorial narratives were kind of limited to very small communities.

(53:42):
And then now we live in a world where anybody
can start a YouTube channel, anybody can have a massive
Twitter account or a Reddit or whatever and start spinning
these narratives, and all of a sudden, um that information
spreads like wildfire. Um so, so I can see this
kind of the government being reticent to engage with the
UFO topic in any sort of serious way, creating problems

(54:06):
that we're now dealing with where there's like literally pundits
on mainstream news channels like Fox telling the American public,
don't trust your government because they're lying to you, trying
to poison you, trying to murder you. Whatever. I mean
that is that is a product of just like government
just being like whatever, man um and now we're like,
we're dealing with the repercussions. I think of this kind
of conspiratorial world. We live in this division that exists.

(54:29):
Um absolutely, But you listen, this is I'm a Canadian,
So for me, I'm a card carrying like socialist liberal
probe like healthcare, free healthcareah so, so I's not I
appreciate that some listeners might not like my lack of
right rightness, but it's okay, Well this this is uh.

(54:51):
I think this is a valuable perspective because this gives
some objectivity. Right. This is a perspect that comes from
someone who does not live in the United States but
clearly knows what's going on. And I think that um,
whatever people want to UM characterize it as you know,

(55:13):
if you say it's at a remove or something like that,
then I would argue that further increases objectivity, and your
point about the government capital g government of any country,
I argue stands true across the planet. Uh. Sometimes, yes,

(55:35):
secrecy is a matter of national defense, but that argument
of the greater good becomes such a slippery slope. And
we say it all the time on the show. Speculation
thrives in the absence of transparency, and sometimes, uh, at
least in our experience, UM, sometimes the most frequent actual

(55:58):
conspiracy incompetent act or some mistake, and the conspiracy is
trying to cover that up so as not to look incompetent.
And I'm just interested in would you agree with that?
M J? Are we off base in that? You know?
I think, I think for the listeners of Alien State,

(56:20):
who who potentially are still going to listen, I think
I think I don't want to I don't spell too much,
but I'll go here. I think as we start in
the show to peel away the layers of UFO story
and this government program, you start to kind of realize
as those layers get peeled away that the reason why
currently the Pentagon doesn't want to talk about UFOs or

(56:41):
engage in the subject in a public way, UM, not
through Congress, because Congress is engaged with How the Pentagon itself,
as like an institution, doesn't want to engage in this
UM is because of embarrassment. Right as we start to
peel the layers way in the show, you realize that
this uf UFO study that was conducted by the US
government UM dealt with some pretty far out things that

(57:07):
in hindsight look ridiculous, and all of a sudden, the
d i A has to figure out a way of saying, Okay,
so we gave a whole bunch of money to a
bunch of people who believe in what, and they did
what with the money, and we're accountable to the taxpayers
for that money. Oh shit, Okay, listen, guys, shut it

(57:27):
down no more. You have post this is insanity, and
it's just like, lock this ship down as fast as
we can UM. And it's not because there's a cover up.
It's because you had guys in You were able to
successfully convince the people within the d i A to
spend money on this when in reality, like the money
was spent on something totally different, totally way out there. Um.

(57:52):
That that that was was like in no way connected
to what they said they were gonna use the money for. Um.
So so you have this this amazing ability to play
fast and loose with with language and wording and and
and phrasing of ideas to the point where the d
i A turned around and said, yeah, here's here's money.
Go uh. And then as that money was spent kind

(58:14):
of realized, sorry, what did we pay for? And all
of a sudden that realization of like oh shit, right,
like there's goblins involved and werewolves and it's like, oh no, right,
and and that's it. Funding was kind Did they restart
the did they restart the Stargate program or something? I
need to finish listening to Alien State? You do need

(58:35):
to finish listening to um and anything about that? Yeah, yeah,
And we can't we can't spoil too much of the show, folks.
We are listening along with you. As you can tell,
we are fans of Alien State. We don't say that lightly.
We can't wait to get to the end of the show.

(58:58):
Episodes are available now. I believe wherever people find podcast
isn't that correct, m J. Yes, you can find it
on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Podcasts. If people use that,
I'm sorry, and then just like anywhere else you can
get a podcast, it's kicking around and where can people
go to learn more about your work, not just with

(59:18):
Alien State but in general. Yeah. So, um, I am
a co founder of a news site called The Debrief
www dot the debrief dot org where we cover sort
of science technology I like to say, from the fringes,
but not really, it's just sort of the outer peripheries
of where we are scientifically. Um. We talk about defense

(59:38):
and national security as well. So the Debrief is a
great resource if you're into the UFO subject or any
kind of science and tech subject, but not this, that's
the stuff Wired isn't like bold enough to cover. Um.
So so hopefully, uh, you know, you find me there
at the Debrief dot org. You can find my personal
website at m J Banis dot com or I'm on

(01:00:00):
Twitter and the social media's um really just Twitter at
m J Bania's um feel free to track me down.
I want to hear your ghost stories, your big foot stories,
you UFO stories, tell me the weird things. Um. I
love it and MJ, you mentioned a very specific Viceland video.
Do you know if that's still available on YouTube or
if you if you go on YouTube. Yeah, I was
involved in a docuseries called The Devil you Know, um,

(01:00:24):
and it's on Viceland if you can get it. If
you don't live in a country that has Viceland, you
can find it on YouTube. People have posted it online.
So if you just type in the Devil you Know
season two, um, it'll pop up. And it's about a
cult leader named Sherry Shriner. Um. And and we do
a six or eight episode, six episode deep dive into

(01:00:47):
who this cult leader was. Um. And I'm in a
couple episodes, which is fun. So yeah, you can find
me there. I'm also like on History Channel. I'm kicking around, man,
I'm all over the place. Man, Well, you've given us
a lot of things to consume, so we're very excited
about that. Thank you so much, MJ for hanging with us.
Appreciate it. It's been my pleasure. This has been a
lot of fun. What a wild ride puts Mr Toad

(01:01:11):
to shame? There we go. Oh, I love the reference.
So um off, Mike, folks, what what you didn't hear
was a in depth conversation about moth Man, which is
our palm Jay's favorite cryptid. Um. We might have to
have him back on the show to talk cryptids. What

(01:01:31):
do you guys think? Dude, I need to wear the
shirt you got me way more often every time I
wear it. I feel like people we talked to just
get super excited about moth Man. I think it's because
you look so good in the shirt. You're probably the
best advertisement for Mothman that Mothman has ever had. I
think they just see his booty in their minds when
they like see the reference on my shirt. It's not

(01:01:52):
just the booty, Fellas, it's the abs man. He doesn't
only have a six pack, he has like a twelve pack.
The dude is like the Masters of the Universe action figure.
Just so, and we hope that you enjoyed this interview
as much as whomever made that Mothman statue clearly enjoyed.
Abs and and butts uh uh and he Matt to

(01:02:14):
your point, noel uh. We are going to call it
a day. We hope you tune in for upcoming episodes
where we are going to explore the bleeding edge of
so called artificial intelligence. As well as allegations of conspiracy
and cover ups. In the meantime, we would love to
hear from you. Do you have personal experience with UFOs, U,

(01:02:38):
a P or just something strange in the sky reach out?
Let us know. We try to be easy to find online.
You can find us on Facebook, YouTube and Twitter at
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(01:02:59):
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(01:03:20):
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(01:03:53):
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