May 31, 2019 • 46 mins
On paper, the US government is a meritocracy. This means that, unlike older monarchical systems of government, state and federal positions are earned on the basis of individual talent, experience and skill, rather than being awarded as an entitlement due to a person's parentage. However, in practice, this doesn't always seem to be the case. Nepotism makes the world go 'round, and it seems even top US officials aren't immune to the siren call of unearned favoritism. While numerous critics have disparaged the practice, Presidents from the 1800s to the modern day tried (with varying success) to install their family members in positions of power -- and some people still wonder whether this is actually legal.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, welcome
(00:24):
back to the show. My name is Matt, my name
is they call me Ben. We're joined as always with
our super producer Paul Mission controlled decade. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here that makes this stuff they
don't want you to know. First things first, how's everybody doing, Matt,
how are you feeling I'm feeling great. Yeah, Ben, You
and I got to hang out on a Saturday for
(00:47):
the first time in a long time this weekend. That's true. Yeah,
we we. We did a show called Pitches right with
our mutual friend Rowan that Noel has been on previously
as on an episode of Pitches available now wherever you
find your favorite podcast, uh and highly recommended. It's a
(01:09):
it's a different show. It's it's a comedic show. I
don't want to spoil it, but you will. You will
have some fun. For those of our fellow listeners who
have written in asking us to curse more often, uh
you can. You can check out that show. I don't
know when our episodes coming out, but again Nol's episode
with rowing on Pitches is available now. An you guys
went blue, I mean a little when it was called
(01:32):
for appropriately appropriately, I just have to say it was
a tremendous amount of fun to be in a podcast
situation that was just a conversation. We weren't we weren't
thinking about research, we weren't think about notes. Who weren't
doing in that. It was just having a discussion and
it was such a different experience. It was pretty great.
(01:54):
I wish I would have been there, guys, I wish
I would have been there. Well, we're all here now.
We're all here now, and if you want to join
our conversation as we explore today's episode, please don't hesitate.
You can pause the podcast, hit us up, and then
get right back to it. There are many ways to
(02:15):
contact us. Usually we do it at the very end,
but here are some spoilers. You can hit us up
with conspiracy at I Heart radio dot com. You can
also call us directly if you're a telephone person. We
are one eight three three s T d W t K.
That's just stuff they don't want you to know and
you know letters for words shorthand yes, yes, how about
(02:38):
you know? How are you feeling? I'm pretty good. Yeah.
I started the day off in a bit of a
slump and then I found my I found my groove.
I got my groove back, like the proverbial stella. Your
Victorville Film Archives hat is fantastic and I can't stop
looking at it. So super producer Paul Um, Mission Control
(02:59):
Decand and I and another mutual super producer friend and
cohort of the podcast Casey pegram Um separately, but we
met up went to see Tim Heidecker and Greg turkington
um of Tim and Eric Slash neil Hamburger fame do
their movie review live show called on Cinema at the
variety of local local venue here and it was an
(03:20):
absolute delight. I couldn't stop laughing the whole time. It
made me feel so good. It was great. Glad to
hear you coming to your city. I recommend you see it.
And it was being filmed pretty prepelled, pretty from all angles,
so I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being
a Netflix special or because it was like a lot
of work went into it. Joe Estevez was there, Amelio
Estevez's father. He was in the show. It was spectacular. Well,
(03:42):
maybe maybe Tim and Joe just like to watch clips
of their show, you know, maybe they've connected. Maybe they're
making a special for themselves. Either. Joe is a part
of the on Cinema lore. He's featured in the show
on the YouTube show. And I would n't have thought
that he would have traveled along with them, but he
surely did. And it was it was just great, nice, nice,
(04:03):
So glad to hear that went well. And you said
it was a bit of a long show to One
of the most popular long running shows in the US
is something that we call the Presidential Administration. It's seasons
are issued in four year blocks. Some have uh, some
(04:25):
have gone longer, some have gotten renewed for season two. Uh.
And today's today's episode is about a question that occurred
to us way back in the days when we were
talking with Professor cult who will remember longtime listeners from
our episode on the Zone of Death and our episode
(04:47):
on what was it pardons? Right? Can the president pardon themselves?
So this is okay, let's set this question up. Like
many many other cultures here in the US, people have
a kind of romanticized obsession with family businesses. The family business.
It occurs in fiction, it occurs in on these documentaries, etcetera, etcetera,
(05:11):
and it may have occurred in your real life. You
may be the proprietor of, or the member of a
family run business, whether we are talking about a local
meet and three diner and international finance firm, or a
piano tuning shop. People love being able to build a legacy,
something that they can later pass on to their children,
(05:32):
something that they can use to give their kids a
leg up in the world. And in many ways this
is massively beneficial for the families totally, and it can
help the business remains stable as long as the kids
are not you know, the bad apples we hear about
who grow up privileged and then promptly rack everything. Well, yeah,
this is a country of immigrants, right and and if
(05:56):
you think about it in this way, one of the
only supports structures you have with you when you're moving
to a new country is your family. So it yeah,
being it was massively, as you said, beneficial to have
that stability within your money making. I was going to
say schemes, but the ways in which you are trying
to make money. If it's rooted in that that family,
(06:18):
that's the best way to go, right And in other
ways this can be tremendously controversial. There's a flip side
to the coin, especially when the family business quote unquote
is something that, in theory is a public a public concern,
something that's based on merit rather than familial connection. So
(06:39):
today's question is this, and it's something that that we
have been kicking around off air for some time. What
happens when the family business is the presidency of the
United States. Can the president, whoever she or he happens
to be at the time, higher their family members. To
answer this question, we have to we have to look
(06:59):
at the history of this sort of practice. So here
are the facts. We start with nepotism. You have listened
to the show before, or if you have maybe ever
been outside or met a group of people, then you
are well aware of what nepotism is, even if the
word seems unfamiliar. It's a practice among those with power
(07:21):
or influence in any situation of favoring relatives or friends.
Particularly when we say it these days, we usually mean
by giving them jobs. You know what I mean? Like my, uh,
my brother in law needs, uh needs a solid gig,
So I'm gonna make him a manager at my landscaping business,
(07:41):
even though he will be in charge of several people
who have been working there for eight to ten years
and are probably better at landscaping. Yeah, we're starting a
video department at this website. Who are we going to
hire all the people I went to college with zip recruiers? Yeah,
Zip recruiter will take take the nepatism out. Possibly so
(08:05):
in the very very first human tribes and religions and governments,
they they this was virtually ubiquitous. Every organization, regardless of
its ideology or you know, whatever other different beliefs I had,
they all placed a very heavy emphasis on this practice.
(08:26):
People in power gave their positions to their offspring or
their relatives, regardless of whether the person inheriting this position
was remotely qualified or even unqualified, or even whether they
wanted the job or not. You know what I mean.
It reminds me of that old uh MR show thing
where the guy working at the pepper factory wants his
(08:49):
kid to work at the pepper factory because that's what
he did. You know what I mean? It goes into
parents expectations of us, and you know, honestly, it's while
you can see the benefit, it would be a weird
world if we all inherited our parents jobs. Matt, I
believe you would be an accountant, Noll, I believe you
(09:11):
would be an opera singer and teacher. Yeah, and then
you would be in in an undisclosed location doing research
for a federal agency. I have no comment. So, so
it's weird because that that stuff, that kind of nepotism
can also become a trap, and it removes people's autonomy
(09:32):
to a very real degree, and in many cases, the
practice of nepotism lead to predictably terrible consequences for everyone involved.
I don't think that's super surprising, right, But in case
it is, let's look at one of the most famous
examples of this disastrous tendency. One of the most infamous
(09:53):
examples of the horrors of nepotism when it's taken to
the degree. It's the story of char Alds the Second
of Spain, the last Habsburg ruler of the Spanish Empire.
So as the result of almost two hundred and fifty
years of inbreeding, which arguably is its own kind of nepotism,
you know, albeit a very disturbingly extreme version. Um. Charles
(10:15):
suffered from multiple birth defects. He had a tongue that
was so big he could barely speak, and his lower
jaw was far larger than his upper um. This is
a condition called prognathism, and it gave it this colloquial
name known as the Habsburg jaw. Also is possible that
he suffered from acromelogy um swelling or disfigurement, especially in
(10:39):
his face and hands, and a form of kidney failure
where his urine was insufficiently acidic, causing the acid to
build up in his body. He was also infertile as
a result of this, this pestiche of conditions, and he
was unable to continue the Habsburg line even in those
(11:00):
those physical problems, if we're being completely fair, should not
ideally affect the position being being the king, outside of
outside of being infertile, because it should all be about
your intelligence, right. Uh. Charles didn't learn to speak until
(11:21):
he was four, and he didn't learn to walk until
he was eight. He didn't go to school, He was
not always expected to be clean, and there was a
study of his death over at the University of Santiago
di Compostela that concluded it is speculated that the simultaneous
occurrence in Charles two of two different genetic disorders combined
pituitary hormone deficiency and distal renal tubular acidosis, could explain
(11:46):
most of his problems. But the point is this, he
was also he was profoundly disabled on multiple levels. None
of these conditions, even those woefully, woefully serious mental disabilities,
prevented Charles the Second from literally becoming the King of Spain,
(12:07):
which is which is nuts his um. His mental acuity
was not at a level where he could be unsupervised,
let alone in charge of an empire. So this is
an example that hopefully history has learned from. And we
(12:28):
can thankfully say today that the majority of world leaders
are not inbreeding with their immediate relatives. So go team.
But the unfortunate truth here is that tribalism and nepotism
still reign supreme in our species. But wait, you might say,
not the United States, right, not the good old Us
of A. Surely there's a law, there ought to be
(12:50):
a law. You're right, there is a law, folks, and
for good reason. And we'll tell you about it right
after a quick word from our sponsor, and we're back.
Prior to nineteen sixty seven, which is distressingly recent, there
(13:12):
were no legal restrictions on presidents appointing family members to
jobs in the executive branch, the you know, the branch
of the presidency which they control. This all changed in
sixty seven when Congress included in the Postal Revenue and
Federal Salary Act a section containing restrictions on government officials
(13:32):
appointing family members to federal government jobs. Nowadays, the street
name of this thing is the Federal Anti Nepotism Statute,
and it's pretty thorough. We can actually, we can actually
read a little bit of it. It's it's in legal ease, though,
So wake up, let's stay awake. Public officials may not appoint, employee, promote,
(13:53):
advance on to advocate for appointment, employment, promotion, advancement in
to a civilian position in the agency in which he
is serving which he exercises jurisdiction, or controlled any individual
who is a relative of public official. Should I go on? Yes? Okay?
An individual may not be appointed, employed, promoted, or advanced
(14:17):
in or to a civilian position in an agency if
such appointment, employment, promotion, or advancement has been advocated by
a public official serving in or exercising jurisdiction or control
over the agency who is a relative of the individual.
So that's pretty clear, right, No way, no, how, you can't.
(14:40):
You cannot hire your relative. And part of that, part
of that is to find better employees or employees who
are more suited to the job. But a big part
of it, if we're being absolutely brutally honest, is that
hiring family members will naturally tend to lead towards corruption
(15:02):
or at least a much higher a much higher a
chance of corruption occurring. And just to be clear here,
this is just relatives, family members, like blood relatives that
we're discussing here. We're not talking about friends, acquaintances, people
who like have your back, your members of the skull
and Bones and college and stuff. Uh. And this this
(15:23):
goes on to define exactly what could be considered an
official Matt, do you do you want to give this
one a crack? Yeah, an officer, including the President and
a member of Congress, a member of the uniformed service
and employee, and any other individual in whom is vested
the authority by law, rule, or regulation, or to whom
(15:44):
the authority has been delegated to a point employee, promote
or advanced individuals, or to recommend individuals for appointment, employment, promotion,
or advancement in connection with employment in an agency. So
trying to cover all the basis they really really are.
So here's the question. This this law is is written
in a pretty water tigh way, right. They try to
(16:05):
govern every every possible way in which UH president could
hire one of their family members and maybe even give
them a pretty nice taxpayer funded salary without maybe having
them actually do anything, you know what I mean. That
happens in the private industry all the time. So the
question is was this law necessary? The answer is absolutely, absolutely,
(16:29):
one million percent. Yes, this was a problem. It was
an historical problem. Since the foundation of the country. US
presidents have had a long, long history of hiring people
based entirely on their familiar connections, despite the fact that
the US government is meant to be, in theory, a meritocracy, right,
And this was common across all political agendas I know
(16:52):
we have. You know, there might be people who say, oh,
this is just a Republican thing. O, oh, this is
just a Democrat thing. This is just a Freemason party thing, right, No,
this is this is just a Whig party or Federalist
party thing. No, this is a people thing. According to
the National Constitutional Center, at least six presidents in the
(17:12):
nineteenth century appointed family members to White House positions or
other executive branch positions, and at least eleven presidents total
have appointed family members to other positions. People hiring family
members to the White House include James Madison, James Monroe,
Andrew Jackson, John Tyler sort of a sleeping giant. It's
(17:33):
one of the presidents most people probably don't know much about.
And James Buchanan. Zachary Taylor, the twelfth president of the country,
took his brother and his son in law as unofficial
presidential advisors. That is interesting, too tricky, right, well, especially
because of that position. I can see extreme pros and
(17:55):
cons for that particular position as being your unofficial right
and left hands right right. And Ulysses S. Grant, the
eighteenth President hired his direct relatives in official paid positions
on the government payroll, and he hired him again. And
all these no one voted for these things. They may
they voted for the president and then the president just
(18:16):
did what they wanted. But by far the most infamous
example of a commander in chief hiring a family member,
and this is something that might steam some people, is
the story of President John F. Kennedy. He straight up
nominated his own brother as Attorney General in nineteen sixty one.
(18:37):
So we have, despite again this purportedly being a meritocracy,
we have a family. We have two siblings in charge
of arguably some of the most influential and important positions
in the US government. Well, I've got a question for you.
I have one for after year finished. This uh, this
Robbie Robert Kennedy. He must have been a powerful, extremely
(19:04):
good at his job attorney right, I mean no, that
was that was actually gonna be my question. I was
sure he was at least a viable candidate. You can't
just hire some kind of slouch, you know, no good
nick to be a job like he did have a
law degree. Well there you go. Yeah, so that the
(19:28):
nomination was controversial at the time. Critics said that guy
is not qualified to be King of the Attorneys, which
so a lot of people would think of the a
g right, he's not qualified to be the emperor of
of attorneys, but Kennedy, the president Kennedy. That is, at
the time, JFK appeared to take it pretty lightly. He
(19:51):
publicly stated when someone was asking about'm nominating him, He's like, uh,
then I gave him a little experience before I goes
out to practice law. Uh wow. But behind the scenes,
JFK was pretty nervous about hiring his brother. He thought,
you know, this is pretty unethical. The guy's main qualification
(20:15):
and everybody's going to know this in the press, the
means the guy's main qualification is that we are family.
And that's you know, that's like a imagine if just
imagine any other president who because we weren't alive when
JFK was alive, but imagine if uh President Clinton or
(20:36):
Obama or one of the bushes where the current president
hired their own brother to be in charge of what
is and what isn't legal in a way I mean,
supremes would be the ring race would be the Kings.
We have a follow up to the question I was asking, um,
is it? I mean, what how do you feelbout hiring
(20:57):
your friends cronyism? I don't hire people to be attorney general.
That's that's fair. But if it's okay for you to
do it, he's saying that the law should that the
rules should be different depending on the stakes. I I personally,
I understand that nepotism makes world grow round. But at
this level and with the kind of power these people
(21:18):
are touching, Uh, no, it is. It is fundamentally wrong
and repugnant. I think it should fall under checks and
balances or be regulated in some way, especially in a
public office. Yeah, you know that that kind of thing.
It rubs me, certainly philosophically the wrong way. But you know,
and it may you as well. But when we were
(21:38):
talking about JFK here, he may not be the one
that you should blame for this act exactly. Yeah, that's
what he's getting to because he was although he put
on a brief face in public, he was privately nervous.
He knew everybody would see this is what it was,
which was clearly nepotistic higher and he did it because
his dad made him. Yeah, his father, Joseph P. Kennedy
(22:02):
is the one who had the idea, told him to
hire your brother. Don't trust these others. You're making me
attorney general. I see you breathe, and you like breathing,
don't your son keep breathing. Look, I've seen that movie
Chap Aquittic. We all three of us in this room.
I've seen it. We we know that character now, So
(22:25):
that's true. So the anti nepotism law gets passed by
Congress in direct response to this appointment. And that's the
way the government should work. Somebody check and balances. Right,
somebody does one thing that needs to be checked and
some other branch of the government comes in and checks
on them. So, good thing, we fix that right, balanced? Yeah,
(22:47):
not so fast, that's right. And we'll learn about the
law right after this. Here's where it it's crazy. We'll
learn about the law versus the law. So it's just
such a classic classic versus they're right. So I mentioned
(23:13):
that nineteen sixty seven anti nepotism stuff. In ninety eight,
Congress passed something called h R. Eleven zero zero three
to build to clarify the authority for employment of personnel
in the White House Office and the Executive Residents. This
was signed into law by then President Jimmy Carter. What
(23:35):
it mainly states is that the president can appoint and
fix the pay of employees in the White House without
regard to any other law regulating employment or compensation of
people in government service. And these employees can perform the
official duties that the president wants them to do. This
(23:58):
this seems pretty positional to that sixty seven law. Right
in a guy named Judge Lawrence Silberman, sorry, a judge
named Lawrence Silberman. He wasn't. His first name was a judge.
Uh uh. He was at the U. S. Court of
Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit and he said,
(24:21):
you know, guys, maybe this anti nepotism thing, Like, I
get where you're going, but maybe maybe it shouldn't apply
to presidential appointments. He said, Look, the statute defines agency
as an executive agency, but we doubt that Congress intended
to include include the White House or the Office of
the President. So he says, I get it. A president
(24:42):
shouldn't be able to make their brother attorney general, but
maybe they can make them all, you know, like a
special assistant. Yeah, do that well, And again I can
see the benefits of that from the inside. Wanting to
have the ear of someone close enough to you that
you can trust them, I guess I do not have
(25:03):
experience in this, I don't think any of us do.
But the the pressures that it would take to function
within the White House, you know, amongst that political matrix
I've seen VEEP seems like a healthscape. Well yeah, only hilarious,
but truly having someone that close to you, with that
(25:25):
amount of trust, just as a special assistant in the
White House, I can imagine that being desirable for people
in the executive branch. What about Trump and his daughter,
No one's talking about that. It's an unpaid position that
has been legally debatable, along with his son in law
Jared Kushry, who does not have you know it does
(25:46):
not have what would typically be considered the skill set
or the experience, but he keeps asking for higher clearances
for these people and they take pretty important meetings. So
it's true, is to pay the issue or is it
more of the influence in the their their face time
and there you know they're being around the office. It's
more the influence, and it's more the level of access
(26:10):
and the question of conflicts of interest and control over
messaging and sorts of things like that. But to your point, Matt,
you can you know it's it's incredibly understandable to have
someone that you know won't write a tell all expose
about you right after you're out of office. It's it's
super comforting to have that person give you their take
(26:33):
on stuff. Um again, they can't recommend the onion articles
on Joe Biden highly enough. Uh, it's it's like, legally speaking,
if you if you agree with that hr leven z
Roso three finding, then it's legally speaking completely fine for
(26:57):
Paul to be president. And then to to a point, Uh,
some guy he met at a bar named snake Bite
to be like his special advisor, and he's like snake
Bite stopped me about a lot of stuff. He taught
me how to avoid ditch weed. He taught me how
to appreciate the music of Scorpion. He taught me about love.
He's the man that I think should be going to
(27:19):
Builderberg whatever Bohemian growth, bringing the message of Scorpion to
the masses. So this is not where the story ends though.
In January, Deputy Assistant Attorney General by the name of
Daniel Kofsky, was a longtime career lawyer at the Justice Department,
(27:40):
issued a fourteen page opinion and in this he said
that anti nepotism law that applies to agencies across the
executive branch doesn't actually cover the White House. So like
the main big tent item of the executive branch is
not is is excluded from this And he says, we
believe that the president special hiring authority from that seventy
(28:02):
eight law permits him to make appointments to the White
House Office that the anti nepotism statute might otherwise forbid.
This Justice opinion is not binding on courts, so relatives
hired by any current or future administration could still face
legal challenges. But it's tough. It's tough because how would
(28:22):
you how would you make that a legal challenge? Who
would the plaintiff be? You know what I mean? Who
who would be able to say the hiring of this
unqualified person directly and demonstrably harmed me or someone else
or did some sort of damage. I would certainly take
(28:43):
time to prove, right, I mean, what are you gonna
are you gonna say I was going to be the
special advisor and then the President found out that I
wasn't related to them? Like what what leg do you stand? Off?
Like the causality there is very hard to exactly exactly
and very good point. So this issue came back into
the mainstream. It wasn't as it wasn't a huge deal
(29:06):
oddly enough in the early days of American society because
people were just expected to do that kind of stuff.
But it came into the mainstream recently with the current
administration because of the appointment of Jared Kushner, who was
the who wasn't is the son in law of the
current president, Donald Trump. Jerry Kushner is currently the senior
(29:30):
advisor to the President and he is also an investor,
real estate developer, newspaper publisher. This hiring was controversial because
they said, well, what is he what? What is he
advising you on? Like? Why why him? Right? Yeah? What
what expertise is he gleaning or experiences he pulling from
(29:52):
to help you out with this advising? Does he have
decades of experience? Uh, similar to Henry Kissing or something?
You know what I mean? Is he deep in the
game of real politic? No, he's not. Um. But again
they're saying, it's just it's the president's prerogative. Right, he's younger.
(30:12):
Maybe he's helping him with you know, memes and Twitter
and all that stuff. Perhaps perhaps um later seen later
the same year that that fourteen page opinion got released
and used as legal standing for this uh, the Justice
Department also released a series of memos that argued exactly
the opposite of what caught coastco is saying they did this.
(30:36):
They released this due to a Freedom of information Act,
so they wouldn't have come out with this in the
other way. And these memos dealt with President Carter, President Obama,
and President Nixon, and in each case they prohibited these
guys and these presidents rather from hiring family members. So
(30:56):
the question is the question is what makes this case
di front Currently as we look at this high level
stuff currently, it looks like the consensus here is that
the president can hire advisors as he or she wishes.
And you can kind of kind of understand if you
had a person that you knew was a perfect pick
(31:17):
for the job, and you had an oppositional Congress, you
wouldn't want Congress or someone else being able to step
in and say no, you know, we know that um
doctor buzz Dr Rendezvous aldrin Is is your primary pick
for lunar policy, but we don't like him, and we
want you to hire. You know this this flat earther
(31:40):
because it's better for the numbers, like you wouldn't want
that kind of interference, But how do you make how
do you make something that can also avoid nepotism in
the same stroke. It's very difficulty. So regardless of their
qualifications or lack thereof, it does appear that, at least
in certain situations, the president whomever that may be, can
(32:02):
hire their family members, and we just kind of go, Okay,
that's where we're at right now. I mean, what do
you guys, what do you guys think though, because this
is you know, no, we're not legal experts, but this
comes down to, I would say a personal question, a
question of personal preference. Do you think that is? That
(32:26):
is Kach for like, were you president, would you be
hiring your family members? I feel like there's a big
backlash to it because of the fact that democracy is
meant to be this antithesis to monarchy, which is obviously
inherently a familial thing. So we like the idea that
it's a meritocracy, like you said, Ben, but we also
(32:47):
know that necessary thing is not what you think it is.
All the time, that there is stuff going on in
back rooms. There are deals being made to enrich people,
and I feel like in a family situation where there's
more to be gain by enriching your family member, because
it didn't turn enriches you and your legacy, maybe that's problematic.
I think it's definitely problematic. Uh, yeah, Ben, My opinion
(33:12):
is that this is a bad move just in general. Yeah,
I think it's a bad move because at this point,
the way communication is, the way transparency exists, You're not
gonna pull a fast one, like maybe you could back
in the day where it wouldn't have been as big
(33:32):
a deal, but at this point you can get hashtagged
the moment that you try and make this kind of
decision of appointing a loved one or maybe even a
loathed one from your family. But it just doesn't seem
like a smart move. I think it will probably go away.
I think the practice will go away because it's so unpopular.
(33:53):
Artist is just such a bad look, because it's such
a bad look, and the backlash can be so real, sudden,
and uh, it can be devastated. I think that is
tremendously optimistic. I feel like it is a very very
bad habit that has been with our species for a
very long time, and I don't see it changing. I mean,
(34:15):
let's not forget there are some of the more powerful
nations in the world are still monarchies. No, I mean
maybe constitutional monarchies, but there's still like that means there's
still a contingent of people in charge for no reason whatsoever, no,
like no defensible reason. And this I feel like we
(34:39):
are due for a swing back in that medieval direction.
Especially we have a lot of we have we have
a lot of people uh in the West who are
currently proponents of neo feudalism. So yeah, no, I see
that point completely, but it does what I would say
along with that, because that seems terrifying we um logical
(35:02):
to me. I feel like the friend angle, the acquaintance
thing like that will probably make a resurgence because we're
also interconnected nowadays. It would be hard to argue a
lot of the social relationships out of hiring for a
position or appointing for a position, for sure, because you know,
(35:24):
if you are a person in charge of hiring, you
usually want someone that you can vouch for, and then
friends like to help their friends too, so you get
in situations where maybe a stranger who is better qualified
gets passed over because somebody knows Donnie Hallbrook from high
school or something, you know what I mean, Or from
(35:46):
junior year of college or there. You're like hang out
after work buddy and that. And it's important to say
that doesn't necessarily mean those people are unqualified. It really
does true true, especially when you consider in some fee wields.
We tend to hang out with people who share our interest.
So if, for instance, you're talking about hiring someone to
(36:09):
be a new high wire trapeze artist, and you're a
high wire trapeze artist, it's relatively rarefied air, you're going
to be aware of the other high wire trapeze artist.
You're probably going to know them on some level, so
(36:30):
naturally you would reach out to them. I don't think
we can remove nepotism from the world entire, and it
would probably be a fool's errand to try. But what
about removing it from the highest offices in the land,
you know what I mean? And again, this is not
this is not to cast this version on or throw
(36:52):
stones at any particular instance of this. This is a trend.
This is a systemic thing, a human desire. It's a
human desire, but it's also a human desire that can affect,
at least, in this country's case, more than three hundred
million people, you know what I mean, Like just because
(37:13):
like if I were president, would be terrified of hiring
any of my family members. And that's not a commentary
on any of you listening. That's just saying it would
it would look bad for us, you know what I mean, right, right,
and all the various spellings. Okay, that's true, that's true.
Sketchy enough, But we want to hear from you as well,
(37:36):
because this is this is a this is sort of
a philosophical problem. The the stuff they don't want you
to know in this episode is that there has been
a long running, not very widely publicized legal battle for
decades about nepotism in the in the highest offices in
(37:59):
the land. And of course you can't you can't eliminate
all of that, especially to your point, Matt, regarding friends.
But should there yeah, a long time ago, I think
we talked about this too. Should there be a law
that says, if you're if you're a president, or your
attorney general or your a justice on the Supreme Court,
(38:21):
your close relatives cannot also hold those positions, like in
a certain time frame. I think, okay, yeah, yeah, I
can see that, But what's what's the time frame? It's tricky,
like you get you know. I I am one hundred
percent on board with so much of of of Paul
(38:44):
mission controlled decands, like vision, his technique. I dig him.
I like what he's about. But if he were president
and he was pushing to get his brother or something
appointed to the head of the Federal Reserve, no, when
it doesn't matter how much I trust you, you know
what I mean, how did you even get access to
(39:07):
make that decision, Paul Man? Because his other brother is
not kidding a kidding. But but that's that's the pickle,
that's the question, that's the dilemma. What do you think
is nepotism a good thing? I know a lot of
us listening now, I'm probably have at least once or
(39:28):
twice gotten a job or a cool a cool thing
of some sort because of depotism. But should this, should
this also exist in government? If so? Why? If not,
how would you remove it? Could you? Should you? Is
it even a problem at all? Is it even a
problem at all? Is it just? Is it better? Then?
(39:50):
Is it better than the effort to try to make
a country and meritocracy. I mean that's the question, and
I'm not being flippant with that, I'm asking I don't know.
I think the worst thing. And we've mentioned it before.
I don't even know if it was a full episode,
but we've talked about it before. And that's you mentioned
at the top of this about members of the same
secret society appointing and running for an office and uh
(40:13):
like holding a public office this office while having allegiances
to some secret organization um and then appointing those members
two things. I think that's a bigger problem, Ben, Yeah,
I think it is because now they can have secret
meetings with minutes not secret if they key minutes. You
never write things down all internal minutes, buddy, like the
(40:34):
jay Z of Conspirators. I just I don't write things
down anymore. Yeah, I mean it's a good point. And
then also just to be fair, if it's a personal
if it's if it's like your personal business, it's your
private thing, or it's a private sector thing, then you know,
do do as you will hire your kids. Just it
(40:59):
would be nice if you made sure they were qualified
or they had a chance to work their way up. Uh.
It may not be the best decision for your business
or your ambitions, but it is your right to do so.
Just again, the question is, um, what happens when when
it's like a when it's public office. I don't know.
I still like, I'll be honest, I it does. It
(41:21):
does hit my spider sense. It's a bad idea, but
I have no idea how we would fix it, and
I think a lot of people would be against it,
especially in Congress, which is also a hotbed of nepotism.
Did you know, Uh, did you know a lot of
congressmen used to hire their wives when they're elected as
(41:42):
secretaries because not not necessarily because they were grifters, but
because of spousal privilege. It means it would mean that
legally their secretaries could never testify against them or present
evidence against them. Brilliant, Yeah, let's say technically brilliant. Yeah. Hey, guys,
(42:03):
speaking of spidy since, guess what I saw last night?
Spider Spider verse. Yeah, I saw the Spider Verse finally, right,
I thoroughly enjoyed myself. Were you familiar with the with
the comics? I know who Peter Parker is I've never
met Peter B. Parker before, or Peter Porker or any
(42:23):
of Yeah, but pretty, pretty dang, pretty dann great. Yeah,
I bought a copy of it. It's it's a great
relaxing film, and it's a film for everybody. You don't
have to know about the life of Spider Man. They
lay it out for you about seven times, the basis
(42:44):
Peter Parker story. They do. Well, Matt, when are you
going to see Avengers End Game? Because I am just
I'm and I know Paul is as well. We're just
we're waiting for you to see it so we can
ask questions when some intergalactic tough guy, you know, gets
a glove that has all the pretty gems on it.
(43:05):
That day, time out, Michael Jackson. Yeah, sure, canceled, but
that day I will see end game alright, basically on
the end game and during the end game, during the
end game, all right, maybe when it hits Netflix. Yeah, yeah,
it's not Infinity Wars. Right, it's on Netflix currently. I did.
(43:26):
I sleepily watched it on a plane and I was enthralled,
sleepily enthralled. Hey, if you want to, uh, if you
want to give Matt some some fake spoilers as long
as they're absolutely not true spoilers about Avengers endgame. Uh,
where they can? They can just call us right yeah,
(43:46):
leave us a message. We are one eight three three
stdy t K. We had a very funny person calling
recently to when we were recording this who told us
about their their pets that were very disturbed by an
episode that we had recently. Yeah, do you want to
just play that one? Now? I think we should. It's
(44:08):
just fun. Let's just play it. Hey, guys, So that
episode really upset my ferrets, Roger Menaphort and Paul Stone.
Could you look back a bit? Also, my bull frog
mitch Man, his eyes bulged every time you say at countability.
(44:30):
It's almost like he doesn't understand what that term means.
And you're really throwing the whole dinning that goes a
souse off and it's just kind of upsetting for everyone.
So if he could just keep that in check, I'd
appreciate it. Thanks, Just so dry talking about his ferrets
(44:51):
with the political names. Scaring scaring ferrets and frogs. That's
that's that's our new thing. Do you. I wonder if
any pets listened to our show. Yeah? I think so
there's got to be some right. I have my cats
sort of listened to it, but mainly for the sound cues.
(45:13):
That's really great. I tried to play it out loud
in my house one time, and my my doctor Penny
genuinely was doing that thing where she tilts her head
a little bit and perks her ears up. Doesn't understand
what the sound sources or what's coming from where she
She knows it's your voice. Yeah, but I was sitting
right next to her. Why isn't coming from you? What else?
(45:34):
If you hate the phone, but you have some opinions
on this, some arguments for or against nepotism in the
highest office in the land. Uh, you can tell us
about it on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter. You can
talk directly to our favorite part of the show, your
fellow listeners on our Facebook page. Here's where it gets crazy.
(45:55):
If you don't want to do any of that, you
can send us an email that I think is working now.
I've been in a little bit of back and forth
or I T department as to whether these new anglass
are working yet or not, but I think they are
as of now. We are conspiracy at I Heeart Radio
dot Com. Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is
(46:29):
a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more
podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, welcome
(00:24):
back to the show. My name is Matt, my name
is they call me Ben. We're joined as always with
our super producer Paul Mission controlled decade. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here that makes this stuff they
don't want you to know. First things first, how's everybody doing, Matt,
how are you feeling I'm feeling great. Yeah, Ben, You
and I got to hang out on a Saturday for
(00:47):
the first time in a long time this weekend. That's true. Yeah,
we we. We did a show called Pitches right with
our mutual friend Rowan that Noel has been on previously
as on an episode of Pitches available now wherever you
find your favorite podcast, uh and highly recommended. It's a
(01:09):
it's a different show. It's it's a comedic show. I
don't want to spoil it, but you will. You will
have some fun. For those of our fellow listeners who
have written in asking us to curse more often, uh
you can. You can check out that show. I don't
know when our episodes coming out, but again Nol's episode
with rowing on Pitches is available now. An you guys
went blue, I mean a little when it was called
(01:32):
for appropriately appropriately, I just have to say it was
a tremendous amount of fun to be in a podcast
situation that was just a conversation. We weren't we weren't
thinking about research, we weren't think about notes. Who weren't
doing in that. It was just having a discussion and
it was such a different experience. It was pretty great.
(01:54):
I wish I would have been there, guys, I wish
I would have been there. Well, we're all here now.
We're all here now, and if you want to join
our conversation as we explore today's episode, please don't hesitate.
You can pause the podcast, hit us up, and then
get right back to it. There are many ways to
(02:15):
contact us. Usually we do it at the very end,
but here are some spoilers. You can hit us up
with conspiracy at I Heart radio dot com. You can
also call us directly if you're a telephone person. We
are one eight three three s T d W t K.
That's just stuff they don't want you to know and
you know letters for words shorthand yes, yes, how about
(02:38):
you know? How are you feeling? I'm pretty good. Yeah.
I started the day off in a bit of a
slump and then I found my I found my groove.
I got my groove back, like the proverbial stella. Your
Victorville Film Archives hat is fantastic and I can't stop
looking at it. So super producer Paul Um, Mission Control
(02:59):
Decand and I and another mutual super producer friend and
cohort of the podcast Casey pegram Um separately, but we
met up went to see Tim Heidecker and Greg turkington
um of Tim and Eric Slash neil Hamburger fame do
their movie review live show called on Cinema at the
variety of local local venue here and it was an
(03:20):
absolute delight. I couldn't stop laughing the whole time. It
made me feel so good. It was great. Glad to
hear you coming to your city. I recommend you see it.
And it was being filmed pretty prepelled, pretty from all angles,
so I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being
a Netflix special or because it was like a lot
of work went into it. Joe Estevez was there, Amelio
Estevez's father. He was in the show. It was spectacular. Well,
(03:42):
maybe maybe Tim and Joe just like to watch clips
of their show, you know, maybe they've connected. Maybe they're
making a special for themselves. Either. Joe is a part
of the on Cinema lore. He's featured in the show
on the YouTube show. And I would n't have thought
that he would have traveled along with them, but he
surely did. And it was it was just great, nice, nice,
(04:03):
So glad to hear that went well. And you said
it was a bit of a long show to One
of the most popular long running shows in the US
is something that we call the Presidential Administration. It's seasons
are issued in four year blocks. Some have uh, some
(04:25):
have gone longer, some have gotten renewed for season two. Uh.
And today's today's episode is about a question that occurred
to us way back in the days when we were
talking with Professor cult who will remember longtime listeners from
our episode on the Zone of Death and our episode
(04:47):
on what was it pardons? Right? Can the president pardon themselves?
So this is okay, let's set this question up. Like
many many other cultures here in the US, people have
a kind of romanticized obsession with family businesses. The family business.
It occurs in fiction, it occurs in on these documentaries, etcetera, etcetera,
(05:11):
and it may have occurred in your real life. You
may be the proprietor of, or the member of a
family run business, whether we are talking about a local
meet and three diner and international finance firm, or a
piano tuning shop. People love being able to build a legacy,
something that they can later pass on to their children,
(05:32):
something that they can use to give their kids a
leg up in the world. And in many ways this
is massively beneficial for the families totally, and it can
help the business remains stable as long as the kids
are not you know, the bad apples we hear about
who grow up privileged and then promptly rack everything. Well, yeah,
this is a country of immigrants, right and and if
(05:56):
you think about it in this way, one of the
only supports structures you have with you when you're moving
to a new country is your family. So it yeah,
being it was massively, as you said, beneficial to have
that stability within your money making. I was going to
say schemes, but the ways in which you are trying
to make money. If it's rooted in that that family,
(06:18):
that's the best way to go, right And in other
ways this can be tremendously controversial. There's a flip side
to the coin, especially when the family business quote unquote
is something that, in theory is a public a public concern,
something that's based on merit rather than familial connection. So
(06:39):
today's question is this, and it's something that that we
have been kicking around off air for some time. What
happens when the family business is the presidency of the
United States. Can the president, whoever she or he happens
to be at the time, higher their family members. To
answer this question, we have to we have to look
(06:59):
at the history of this sort of practice. So here
are the facts. We start with nepotism. You have listened
to the show before, or if you have maybe ever
been outside or met a group of people, then you
are well aware of what nepotism is, even if the
word seems unfamiliar. It's a practice among those with power
(07:21):
or influence in any situation of favoring relatives or friends.
Particularly when we say it these days, we usually mean
by giving them jobs. You know what I mean? Like my, uh,
my brother in law needs, uh needs a solid gig,
So I'm gonna make him a manager at my landscaping business,
(07:41):
even though he will be in charge of several people
who have been working there for eight to ten years
and are probably better at landscaping. Yeah, we're starting a
video department at this website. Who are we going to
hire all the people I went to college with zip recruiers? Yeah,
Zip recruiter will take take the nepatism out. Possibly so
(08:05):
in the very very first human tribes and religions and governments,
they they this was virtually ubiquitous. Every organization, regardless of
its ideology or you know, whatever other different beliefs I had,
they all placed a very heavy emphasis on this practice.
(08:26):
People in power gave their positions to their offspring or
their relatives, regardless of whether the person inheriting this position
was remotely qualified or even unqualified, or even whether they
wanted the job or not. You know what I mean.
It reminds me of that old uh MR show thing
where the guy working at the pepper factory wants his
(08:49):
kid to work at the pepper factory because that's what
he did. You know what I mean? It goes into
parents expectations of us, and you know, honestly, it's while
you can see the benefit, it would be a weird
world if we all inherited our parents jobs. Matt, I
believe you would be an accountant, Noll, I believe you
(09:11):
would be an opera singer and teacher. Yeah, and then
you would be in in an undisclosed location doing research
for a federal agency. I have no comment. So, so
it's weird because that that stuff, that kind of nepotism
can also become a trap, and it removes people's autonomy
(09:32):
to a very real degree, and in many cases, the
practice of nepotism lead to predictably terrible consequences for everyone involved.
I don't think that's super surprising, right, But in case
it is, let's look at one of the most famous
examples of this disastrous tendency. One of the most infamous
(09:53):
examples of the horrors of nepotism when it's taken to
the degree. It's the story of char Alds the Second
of Spain, the last Habsburg ruler of the Spanish Empire.
So as the result of almost two hundred and fifty
years of inbreeding, which arguably is its own kind of nepotism,
you know, albeit a very disturbingly extreme version. Um. Charles
(10:15):
suffered from multiple birth defects. He had a tongue that
was so big he could barely speak, and his lower
jaw was far larger than his upper um. This is
a condition called prognathism, and it gave it this colloquial
name known as the Habsburg jaw. Also is possible that
he suffered from acromelogy um swelling or disfigurement, especially in
(10:39):
his face and hands, and a form of kidney failure
where his urine was insufficiently acidic, causing the acid to
build up in his body. He was also infertile as
a result of this, this pestiche of conditions, and he
was unable to continue the Habsburg line even in those
(11:00):
those physical problems, if we're being completely fair, should not
ideally affect the position being being the king, outside of
outside of being infertile, because it should all be about
your intelligence, right. Uh. Charles didn't learn to speak until
(11:21):
he was four, and he didn't learn to walk until
he was eight. He didn't go to school, He was
not always expected to be clean, and there was a
study of his death over at the University of Santiago
di Compostela that concluded it is speculated that the simultaneous
occurrence in Charles two of two different genetic disorders combined
pituitary hormone deficiency and distal renal tubular acidosis, could explain
(11:46):
most of his problems. But the point is this, he
was also he was profoundly disabled on multiple levels. None
of these conditions, even those woefully, woefully serious mental disabilities,
prevented Charles the Second from literally becoming the King of Spain,
(12:07):
which is which is nuts his um. His mental acuity
was not at a level where he could be unsupervised,
let alone in charge of an empire. So this is
an example that hopefully history has learned from. And we
(12:28):
can thankfully say today that the majority of world leaders
are not inbreeding with their immediate relatives. So go team.
But the unfortunate truth here is that tribalism and nepotism
still reign supreme in our species. But wait, you might say,
not the United States, right, not the good old Us
of A. Surely there's a law, there ought to be
(12:50):
a law. You're right, there is a law, folks, and
for good reason. And we'll tell you about it right
after a quick word from our sponsor, and we're back.
Prior to nineteen sixty seven, which is distressingly recent, there
(13:12):
were no legal restrictions on presidents appointing family members to
jobs in the executive branch, the you know, the branch
of the presidency which they control. This all changed in
sixty seven when Congress included in the Postal Revenue and
Federal Salary Act a section containing restrictions on government officials
(13:32):
appointing family members to federal government jobs. Nowadays, the street
name of this thing is the Federal Anti Nepotism Statute,
and it's pretty thorough. We can actually, we can actually
read a little bit of it. It's it's in legal ease, though,
So wake up, let's stay awake. Public officials may not appoint, employee, promote,
(13:53):
advance on to advocate for appointment, employment, promotion, advancement in
to a civilian position in the agency in which he
is serving which he exercises jurisdiction, or controlled any individual
who is a relative of public official. Should I go on? Yes? Okay?
An individual may not be appointed, employed, promoted, or advanced
(14:17):
in or to a civilian position in an agency if
such appointment, employment, promotion, or advancement has been advocated by
a public official serving in or exercising jurisdiction or control
over the agency who is a relative of the individual.
So that's pretty clear, right, No way, no, how, you can't.
(14:40):
You cannot hire your relative. And part of that, part
of that is to find better employees or employees who
are more suited to the job. But a big part
of it, if we're being absolutely brutally honest, is that
hiring family members will naturally tend to lead towards corruption
(15:02):
or at least a much higher a much higher a
chance of corruption occurring. And just to be clear here,
this is just relatives, family members, like blood relatives that
we're discussing here. We're not talking about friends, acquaintances, people
who like have your back, your members of the skull
and Bones and college and stuff. Uh. And this this
(15:23):
goes on to define exactly what could be considered an
official Matt, do you do you want to give this
one a crack? Yeah, an officer, including the President and
a member of Congress, a member of the uniformed service
and employee, and any other individual in whom is vested
the authority by law, rule, or regulation, or to whom
(15:44):
the authority has been delegated to a point employee, promote
or advanced individuals, or to recommend individuals for appointment, employment, promotion,
or advancement in connection with employment in an agency. So
trying to cover all the basis they really really are.
So here's the question. This this law is is written
in a pretty water tigh way, right. They try to
(16:05):
govern every every possible way in which UH president could
hire one of their family members and maybe even give
them a pretty nice taxpayer funded salary without maybe having
them actually do anything, you know what I mean. That
happens in the private industry all the time. So the
question is was this law necessary? The answer is absolutely, absolutely,
(16:29):
one million percent. Yes, this was a problem. It was
an historical problem. Since the foundation of the country. US
presidents have had a long, long history of hiring people
based entirely on their familiar connections, despite the fact that
the US government is meant to be, in theory, a meritocracy, right,
And this was common across all political agendas I know
(16:52):
we have. You know, there might be people who say, oh,
this is just a Republican thing. O, oh, this is
just a Democrat thing. This is just a Freemason party thing, right, No,
this is this is just a Whig party or Federalist
party thing. No, this is a people thing. According to
the National Constitutional Center, at least six presidents in the
(17:12):
nineteenth century appointed family members to White House positions or
other executive branch positions, and at least eleven presidents total
have appointed family members to other positions. People hiring family
members to the White House include James Madison, James Monroe,
Andrew Jackson, John Tyler sort of a sleeping giant. It's
(17:33):
one of the presidents most people probably don't know much about.
And James Buchanan. Zachary Taylor, the twelfth president of the country,
took his brother and his son in law as unofficial
presidential advisors. That is interesting, too tricky, right, well, especially
because of that position. I can see extreme pros and
(17:55):
cons for that particular position as being your unofficial right
and left hands right right. And Ulysses S. Grant, the
eighteenth President hired his direct relatives in official paid positions
on the government payroll, and he hired him again. And
all these no one voted for these things. They may
they voted for the president and then the president just
(18:16):
did what they wanted. But by far the most infamous
example of a commander in chief hiring a family member,
and this is something that might steam some people, is
the story of President John F. Kennedy. He straight up
nominated his own brother as Attorney General in nineteen sixty one.
(18:37):
So we have, despite again this purportedly being a meritocracy,
we have a family. We have two siblings in charge
of arguably some of the most influential and important positions
in the US government. Well, I've got a question for you.
I have one for after year finished. This uh, this
Robbie Robert Kennedy. He must have been a powerful, extremely
(19:04):
good at his job attorney right, I mean no, that
was that was actually gonna be my question. I was
sure he was at least a viable candidate. You can't
just hire some kind of slouch, you know, no good
nick to be a job like he did have a
law degree. Well there you go. Yeah, so that the
(19:28):
nomination was controversial at the time. Critics said that guy
is not qualified to be King of the Attorneys, which
so a lot of people would think of the a
g right, he's not qualified to be the emperor of
of attorneys, but Kennedy, the president Kennedy. That is, at
the time, JFK appeared to take it pretty lightly. He
(19:51):
publicly stated when someone was asking about'm nominating him, He's like, uh,
then I gave him a little experience before I goes
out to practice law. Uh wow. But behind the scenes,
JFK was pretty nervous about hiring his brother. He thought,
you know, this is pretty unethical. The guy's main qualification
(20:15):
and everybody's going to know this in the press, the
means the guy's main qualification is that we are family.
And that's you know, that's like a imagine if just
imagine any other president who because we weren't alive when
JFK was alive, but imagine if uh President Clinton or
(20:36):
Obama or one of the bushes where the current president
hired their own brother to be in charge of what
is and what isn't legal in a way I mean,
supremes would be the ring race would be the Kings.
We have a follow up to the question I was asking, um,
is it? I mean, what how do you feelbout hiring
(20:57):
your friends cronyism? I don't hire people to be attorney general.
That's that's fair. But if it's okay for you to
do it, he's saying that the law should that the
rules should be different depending on the stakes. I I personally,
I understand that nepotism makes world grow round. But at
this level and with the kind of power these people
(21:18):
are touching, Uh, no, it is. It is fundamentally wrong
and repugnant. I think it should fall under checks and
balances or be regulated in some way, especially in a
public office. Yeah, you know that that kind of thing.
It rubs me, certainly philosophically the wrong way. But you know,
and it may you as well. But when we were
(21:38):
talking about JFK here, he may not be the one
that you should blame for this act exactly. Yeah, that's
what he's getting to because he was although he put
on a brief face in public, he was privately nervous.
He knew everybody would see this is what it was,
which was clearly nepotistic higher and he did it because
his dad made him. Yeah, his father, Joseph P. Kennedy
(22:02):
is the one who had the idea, told him to
hire your brother. Don't trust these others. You're making me
attorney general. I see you breathe, and you like breathing,
don't your son keep breathing. Look, I've seen that movie
Chap Aquittic. We all three of us in this room.
I've seen it. We we know that character now, So
(22:25):
that's true. So the anti nepotism law gets passed by
Congress in direct response to this appointment. And that's the
way the government should work. Somebody check and balances. Right,
somebody does one thing that needs to be checked and
some other branch of the government comes in and checks
on them. So, good thing, we fix that right, balanced? Yeah,
(22:47):
not so fast, that's right. And we'll learn about the
law right after this. Here's where it it's crazy. We'll
learn about the law versus the law. So it's just
such a classic classic versus they're right. So I mentioned
(23:13):
that nineteen sixty seven anti nepotism stuff. In ninety eight,
Congress passed something called h R. Eleven zero zero three
to build to clarify the authority for employment of personnel
in the White House Office and the Executive Residents. This
was signed into law by then President Jimmy Carter. What
(23:35):
it mainly states is that the president can appoint and
fix the pay of employees in the White House without
regard to any other law regulating employment or compensation of
people in government service. And these employees can perform the
official duties that the president wants them to do. This
(23:58):
this seems pretty positional to that sixty seven law. Right
in a guy named Judge Lawrence Silberman, sorry, a judge
named Lawrence Silberman. He wasn't. His first name was a judge.
Uh uh. He was at the U. S. Court of
Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit and he said,
(24:21):
you know, guys, maybe this anti nepotism thing, Like, I
get where you're going, but maybe maybe it shouldn't apply
to presidential appointments. He said, Look, the statute defines agency
as an executive agency, but we doubt that Congress intended
to include include the White House or the Office of
the President. So he says, I get it. A president
(24:42):
shouldn't be able to make their brother attorney general, but
maybe they can make them all, you know, like a
special assistant. Yeah, do that well, And again I can
see the benefits of that from the inside. Wanting to
have the ear of someone close enough to you that
you can trust them, I guess I do not have
(25:03):
experience in this, I don't think any of us do.
But the the pressures that it would take to function
within the White House, you know, amongst that political matrix
I've seen VEEP seems like a healthscape. Well yeah, only hilarious,
but truly having someone that close to you, with that
(25:25):
amount of trust, just as a special assistant in the
White House, I can imagine that being desirable for people
in the executive branch. What about Trump and his daughter,
No one's talking about that. It's an unpaid position that
has been legally debatable, along with his son in law
Jared Kushry, who does not have you know it does
(25:46):
not have what would typically be considered the skill set
or the experience, but he keeps asking for higher clearances
for these people and they take pretty important meetings. So
it's true, is to pay the issue or is it
more of the influence in the their their face time
and there you know they're being around the office. It's
more the influence, and it's more the level of access
(26:10):
and the question of conflicts of interest and control over
messaging and sorts of things like that. But to your point, Matt,
you can you know it's it's incredibly understandable to have
someone that you know won't write a tell all expose
about you right after you're out of office. It's it's
super comforting to have that person give you their take
(26:33):
on stuff. Um again, they can't recommend the onion articles
on Joe Biden highly enough. Uh, it's it's like, legally speaking,
if you if you agree with that hr leven z
Roso three finding, then it's legally speaking completely fine for
(26:57):
Paul to be president. And then to to a point, Uh,
some guy he met at a bar named snake Bite
to be like his special advisor, and he's like snake
Bite stopped me about a lot of stuff. He taught
me how to avoid ditch weed. He taught me how
to appreciate the music of Scorpion. He taught me about love.
He's the man that I think should be going to
(27:19):
Builderberg whatever Bohemian growth, bringing the message of Scorpion to
the masses. So this is not where the story ends though.
In January, Deputy Assistant Attorney General by the name of
Daniel Kofsky, was a longtime career lawyer at the Justice Department,
(27:40):
issued a fourteen page opinion and in this he said
that anti nepotism law that applies to agencies across the
executive branch doesn't actually cover the White House. So like
the main big tent item of the executive branch is
not is is excluded from this And he says, we
believe that the president special hiring authority from that seventy
(28:02):
eight law permits him to make appointments to the White
House Office that the anti nepotism statute might otherwise forbid.
This Justice opinion is not binding on courts, so relatives
hired by any current or future administration could still face
legal challenges. But it's tough. It's tough because how would
(28:22):
you how would you make that a legal challenge? Who
would the plaintiff be? You know what I mean? Who
who would be able to say the hiring of this
unqualified person directly and demonstrably harmed me or someone else
or did some sort of damage. I would certainly take
(28:43):
time to prove, right, I mean, what are you gonna
are you gonna say I was going to be the
special advisor and then the President found out that I
wasn't related to them? Like what what leg do you stand? Off?
Like the causality there is very hard to exactly exactly
and very good point. So this issue came back into
the mainstream. It wasn't as it wasn't a huge deal
(29:06):
oddly enough in the early days of American society because
people were just expected to do that kind of stuff.
But it came into the mainstream recently with the current
administration because of the appointment of Jared Kushner, who was
the who wasn't is the son in law of the
current president, Donald Trump. Jerry Kushner is currently the senior
(29:30):
advisor to the President and he is also an investor,
real estate developer, newspaper publisher. This hiring was controversial because
they said, well, what is he what? What is he
advising you on? Like? Why why him? Right? Yeah? What
what expertise is he gleaning or experiences he pulling from
(29:52):
to help you out with this advising? Does he have
decades of experience? Uh, similar to Henry Kissing or something?
You know what I mean? Is he deep in the
game of real politic? No, he's not. Um. But again
they're saying, it's just it's the president's prerogative. Right, he's younger.
(30:12):
Maybe he's helping him with you know, memes and Twitter
and all that stuff. Perhaps perhaps um later seen later
the same year that that fourteen page opinion got released
and used as legal standing for this uh, the Justice
Department also released a series of memos that argued exactly
the opposite of what caught coastco is saying they did this.
(30:36):
They released this due to a Freedom of information Act,
so they wouldn't have come out with this in the
other way. And these memos dealt with President Carter, President Obama,
and President Nixon, and in each case they prohibited these
guys and these presidents rather from hiring family members. So
(30:56):
the question is the question is what makes this case
di front Currently as we look at this high level
stuff currently, it looks like the consensus here is that
the president can hire advisors as he or she wishes.
And you can kind of kind of understand if you
had a person that you knew was a perfect pick
(31:17):
for the job, and you had an oppositional Congress, you
wouldn't want Congress or someone else being able to step
in and say no, you know, we know that um
doctor buzz Dr Rendezvous aldrin Is is your primary pick
for lunar policy, but we don't like him, and we
want you to hire. You know this this flat earther
(31:40):
because it's better for the numbers, like you wouldn't want
that kind of interference, But how do you make how
do you make something that can also avoid nepotism in
the same stroke. It's very difficulty. So regardless of their
qualifications or lack thereof, it does appear that, at least
in certain situations, the president whomever that may be, can
(32:02):
hire their family members, and we just kind of go, Okay,
that's where we're at right now. I mean, what do
you guys, what do you guys think though, because this
is you know, no, we're not legal experts, but this
comes down to, I would say a personal question, a
question of personal preference. Do you think that is? That
(32:26):
is Kach for like, were you president, would you be
hiring your family members? I feel like there's a big
backlash to it because of the fact that democracy is
meant to be this antithesis to monarchy, which is obviously
inherently a familial thing. So we like the idea that
it's a meritocracy, like you said, Ben, but we also
(32:47):
know that necessary thing is not what you think it is.
All the time, that there is stuff going on in
back rooms. There are deals being made to enrich people,
and I feel like in a family situation where there's
more to be gain by enriching your family member, because
it didn't turn enriches you and your legacy, maybe that's problematic.
I think it's definitely problematic. Uh, yeah, Ben, My opinion
(33:12):
is that this is a bad move just in general. Yeah,
I think it's a bad move because at this point,
the way communication is, the way transparency exists, You're not
gonna pull a fast one, like maybe you could back
in the day where it wouldn't have been as big
(33:32):
a deal, but at this point you can get hashtagged
the moment that you try and make this kind of
decision of appointing a loved one or maybe even a
loathed one from your family. But it just doesn't seem
like a smart move. I think it will probably go away.
I think the practice will go away because it's so unpopular.
(33:53):
Artist is just such a bad look, because it's such
a bad look, and the backlash can be so real, sudden,
and uh, it can be devastated. I think that is
tremendously optimistic. I feel like it is a very very
bad habit that has been with our species for a
very long time, and I don't see it changing. I mean,
(34:15):
let's not forget there are some of the more powerful
nations in the world are still monarchies. No, I mean
maybe constitutional monarchies, but there's still like that means there's
still a contingent of people in charge for no reason whatsoever, no,
like no defensible reason. And this I feel like we
(34:39):
are due for a swing back in that medieval direction.
Especially we have a lot of we have we have
a lot of people uh in the West who are
currently proponents of neo feudalism. So yeah, no, I see
that point completely, but it does what I would say
along with that, because that seems terrifying we um logical
(35:02):
to me. I feel like the friend angle, the acquaintance
thing like that will probably make a resurgence because we're
also interconnected nowadays. It would be hard to argue a
lot of the social relationships out of hiring for a
position or appointing for a position, for sure, because you know,
(35:24):
if you are a person in charge of hiring, you
usually want someone that you can vouch for, and then
friends like to help their friends too, so you get
in situations where maybe a stranger who is better qualified
gets passed over because somebody knows Donnie Hallbrook from high
school or something, you know what I mean, Or from
(35:46):
junior year of college or there. You're like hang out
after work buddy and that. And it's important to say
that doesn't necessarily mean those people are unqualified. It really
does true true, especially when you consider in some fee wields.
We tend to hang out with people who share our interest.
So if, for instance, you're talking about hiring someone to
(36:09):
be a new high wire trapeze artist, and you're a
high wire trapeze artist, it's relatively rarefied air, you're going
to be aware of the other high wire trapeze artist.
You're probably going to know them on some level, so
(36:30):
naturally you would reach out to them. I don't think
we can remove nepotism from the world entire, and it
would probably be a fool's errand to try. But what
about removing it from the highest offices in the land,
you know what I mean? And again, this is not
this is not to cast this version on or throw
(36:52):
stones at any particular instance of this. This is a trend.
This is a systemic thing, a human desire. It's a
human desire, but it's also a human desire that can affect,
at least, in this country's case, more than three hundred
million people, you know what I mean, Like just because
(37:13):
like if I were president, would be terrified of hiring
any of my family members. And that's not a commentary
on any of you listening. That's just saying it would
it would look bad for us, you know what I mean, right, right,
and all the various spellings. Okay, that's true, that's true.
Sketchy enough, But we want to hear from you as well,
(37:36):
because this is this is a this is sort of
a philosophical problem. The the stuff they don't want you
to know in this episode is that there has been
a long running, not very widely publicized legal battle for
decades about nepotism in the in the highest offices in
(37:59):
the land. And of course you can't you can't eliminate
all of that, especially to your point, Matt, regarding friends.
But should there yeah, a long time ago, I think
we talked about this too. Should there be a law
that says, if you're if you're a president, or your
attorney general or your a justice on the Supreme Court,
(38:21):
your close relatives cannot also hold those positions, like in
a certain time frame. I think, okay, yeah, yeah, I
can see that, But what's what's the time frame? It's tricky,
like you get you know. I I am one hundred
percent on board with so much of of of Paul
(38:44):
mission controlled decands, like vision, his technique. I dig him.
I like what he's about. But if he were president
and he was pushing to get his brother or something
appointed to the head of the Federal Reserve, no, when
it doesn't matter how much I trust you, you know
what I mean, how did you even get access to
(39:07):
make that decision, Paul Man? Because his other brother is
not kidding a kidding. But but that's that's the pickle,
that's the question, that's the dilemma. What do you think
is nepotism a good thing? I know a lot of
us listening now, I'm probably have at least once or
(39:28):
twice gotten a job or a cool a cool thing
of some sort because of depotism. But should this, should
this also exist in government? If so? Why? If not,
how would you remove it? Could you? Should you? Is
it even a problem at all? Is it even a
problem at all? Is it just? Is it better? Then?
(39:50):
Is it better than the effort to try to make
a country and meritocracy. I mean that's the question, and
I'm not being flippant with that, I'm asking I don't know.
I think the worst thing. And we've mentioned it before.
I don't even know if it was a full episode,
but we've talked about it before. And that's you mentioned
at the top of this about members of the same
secret society appointing and running for an office and uh
(40:13):
like holding a public office this office while having allegiances
to some secret organization um and then appointing those members
two things. I think that's a bigger problem, Ben, Yeah,
I think it is because now they can have secret
meetings with minutes not secret if they key minutes. You
never write things down all internal minutes, buddy, like the
(40:34):
jay Z of Conspirators. I just I don't write things
down anymore. Yeah, I mean it's a good point. And
then also just to be fair, if it's a personal
if it's if it's like your personal business, it's your
private thing, or it's a private sector thing, then you know,
do do as you will hire your kids. Just it
(40:59):
would be nice if you made sure they were qualified
or they had a chance to work their way up. Uh.
It may not be the best decision for your business
or your ambitions, but it is your right to do so.
Just again, the question is, um, what happens when when
it's like a when it's public office. I don't know.
I still like, I'll be honest, I it does. It
(41:21):
does hit my spider sense. It's a bad idea, but
I have no idea how we would fix it, and
I think a lot of people would be against it,
especially in Congress, which is also a hotbed of nepotism.
Did you know, Uh, did you know a lot of
congressmen used to hire their wives when they're elected as
(41:42):
secretaries because not not necessarily because they were grifters, but
because of spousal privilege. It means it would mean that
legally their secretaries could never testify against them or present
evidence against them. Brilliant, Yeah, let's say technically brilliant. Yeah. Hey, guys,
(42:03):
speaking of spidy since, guess what I saw last night?
Spider Spider verse. Yeah, I saw the Spider Verse finally, right,
I thoroughly enjoyed myself. Were you familiar with the with
the comics? I know who Peter Parker is I've never
met Peter B. Parker before, or Peter Porker or any
(42:23):
of Yeah, but pretty, pretty dang, pretty dann great. Yeah,
I bought a copy of it. It's it's a great
relaxing film, and it's a film for everybody. You don't
have to know about the life of Spider Man. They
lay it out for you about seven times, the basis
(42:44):
Peter Parker story. They do. Well, Matt, when are you
going to see Avengers End Game? Because I am just
I'm and I know Paul is as well. We're just
we're waiting for you to see it so we can
ask questions when some intergalactic tough guy, you know, gets
a glove that has all the pretty gems on it.
(43:05):
That day, time out, Michael Jackson. Yeah, sure, canceled, but
that day I will see end game alright, basically on
the end game and during the end game, during the
end game, all right, maybe when it hits Netflix. Yeah, yeah,
it's not Infinity Wars. Right, it's on Netflix currently. I did.
(43:26):
I sleepily watched it on a plane and I was enthralled,
sleepily enthralled. Hey, if you want to, uh, if you
want to give Matt some some fake spoilers as long
as they're absolutely not true spoilers about Avengers endgame. Uh,
where they can? They can just call us right yeah,
(43:46):
leave us a message. We are one eight three three
stdy t K. We had a very funny person calling
recently to when we were recording this who told us
about their their pets that were very disturbed by an
episode that we had recently. Yeah, do you want to
just play that one? Now? I think we should. It's
(44:08):
just fun. Let's just play it. Hey, guys, So that
episode really upset my ferrets, Roger Menaphort and Paul Stone.
Could you look back a bit? Also, my bull frog
mitch Man, his eyes bulged every time you say at countability.
(44:30):
It's almost like he doesn't understand what that term means.
And you're really throwing the whole dinning that goes a
souse off and it's just kind of upsetting for everyone.
So if he could just keep that in check, I'd
appreciate it. Thanks, Just so dry talking about his ferrets
(44:51):
with the political names. Scaring scaring ferrets and frogs. That's
that's that's our new thing. Do you. I wonder if
any pets listened to our show. Yeah? I think so
there's got to be some right. I have my cats
sort of listened to it, but mainly for the sound cues.
(45:13):
That's really great. I tried to play it out loud
in my house one time, and my my doctor Penny
genuinely was doing that thing where she tilts her head
a little bit and perks her ears up. Doesn't understand
what the sound sources or what's coming from where she
She knows it's your voice. Yeah, but I was sitting
right next to her. Why isn't coming from you? What else?
(45:34):
If you hate the phone, but you have some opinions
on this, some arguments for or against nepotism in the
highest office in the land. Uh, you can tell us
about it on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter. You can
talk directly to our favorite part of the show, your
fellow listeners on our Facebook page. Here's where it gets crazy.
(45:55):
If you don't want to do any of that, you
can send us an email that I think is working now.
I've been in a little bit of back and forth
or I T department as to whether these new anglass
are working yet or not, but I think they are
as of now. We are conspiracy at I Heeart Radio
dot Com. Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is
(46:29):
a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more
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