August 31, 2021 • 36 mins
Did you know that there's no systematic, comprehensive study of police shootings across the United States? Some blame a distaste for paperwork, while others think there's something sinister afoot.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So, Matt, I think I mentioned a while back. I
barely got out of Chile right when the lockdown for
coronavirus began. It was very fortunate to get out, very
fortunate to go and return safely in the first place.
But one thing I noticed is that Chile, like many
places in South America, has militarized its police force. M
(00:24):
that sounds familiar. Yeah, it's definitely something that has been
happening in the United States for quite a while, and
for the past few years here we've been discussing as
a nation, what the heck do police departments really do
you know, for communities in which they operate and back
(00:45):
we asked that question and we made this episode. I'm
interested to know how you, you know, see this conversation
changing since we recorded this episode, So please listen to
it and give us your thoughts. From UFOs two, Ghosts
and Government cover ups. History is riddled with unexplained events.
(01:05):
You can turn back now or learn the stuff they
don't want you to now. Greetings, Welcome back to the show.
My name is Matt and I'm Ben. We're here with
our super producer Noel Sirens on Brown, which means that
this is stuff they don't want you to know. Oh good, okay,
(01:29):
yes we're in the right place, and hopefully so are you,
ladies and gentlemen. Uh Matt put story. When I was younger,
when you were younger, I guess we're all younger if
we're talking about the past. There was a show on
television which I think might still be on called Cops
yess reloaded now I believe, maybe not. I know I've
(01:52):
seen that somewhere on the TV. Guy And as a kid,
I had this superstition at if ever I sang the
theme song out loud, something bad would happen, like you
would summon police or criminals. I'm not too clear on it. Again,
I was a kid, just something bad, and it's something
(02:14):
that I've stuck with today. Now. I'm not bothered, of course,
if anybody else is singing around me or if I
hear it. But as as ridiculous as I know that
is intellectually, there's still just a little part of me
that hesitates, because I, like most people in the United States,
(02:35):
want absolutely no problem with police officers. Absolutely. I have
a quick story. Yeah, So the house that I lived
next to, I take my dogs out in the backyard.
We have a little fenced in area, and I noticed
that my house just next to mine, the back door
to the basement was wide open and the lights were on.
(02:56):
This is around eleven o'clock at night when I noticed this,
and I didn't think too much of it, you know,
maybe they're airing out the basement, maybe so much, just
working and so anyway, I just went back inside. Well,
for the next three nights, I noticed that it was
in the exact same state when I would take my
dogs out, and I started getting a little worried. You know,
(03:17):
what if somebody in the house, you know, fell or
something and got hurt while I'm cleaning, you know. So
I ended up calling the police department, and I it
was the first time I've actually called the police department. Um,
because I was a little nervous. I don't know if
you would have been nervous, but I didn't want to
just walk into my neighbor's home to check and see
if everything is all right. Yeah, no, I don't. I don't.
(03:39):
I wouldn't do that unless I knew them pretty well. Well.
Maybe in the past I probably would have, especially if
I was a bit younger, but now, for some reason,
my maybe it's just the amount of television shows I've
watched with police investigations, Like I didn't want my prints
to be in the house, like my footprints or anything
to be in the house in case anything bad had happened,
(04:01):
or if there was a crime scene, to do anything
to compromise it. Like I was terrified. So I called
the police and they came and they looked at the house. Um,
but I have to admit I felt really tense when
the police officers were there. Was it? Uh what what
did they find? Just how to have no idea? I
I didn't stay stick around. They dealt with me very coldly,
(04:24):
and I don't know that it was just it was
an experience that I don't know that I would do
it again. I would probably find the homeowners association whatever.
There isn't one where I live, but something to that effect.
And I don't think you could call nine one reports
something suspicious. It would have to be an emergency or
(04:45):
like a crime in progress. And I had no idea
what the state was. Right, Well, I hope things were
doubt did someone live at that house? Someone did, but
I think there were tenants and they moved out. Okay, well,
maybe it was a squatter or something. Yeah, who knows.
I have no information, but anyway, just wanted to reiterate
my uneasiness and that I felt even calling the police.
(05:09):
And there have been generational attitude changes toward law enforcement. Now,
whether you think that is a result of changing laws
or incarceration rates, or whether you think that's just something
in pop culture, the zeitgeist. Either way it is. It
is true that people have changed their opinions. And today
(05:30):
we are talking about a topic that has been on
people's minds for a a number of years, recently in
particular right. But we're also going to find that this
is part of something that dates far far back in
American history. What we were talking about today, ladies and gentlemen,
(05:51):
is law enforcement and race. And before we jump into
a bunch of statistics and stuff, I want to make
sure that people know this is not a This is
not a podcast intended to um take pot shots at
police officers, um, many of whom die in the line
of duty. Absolutely not. I don't know. I can't remember
(06:15):
if you have any law enforcement in your family, but
I have some of my family. And this is not
nothing against law enforcement officers in general at all. Right,
What what we're talking about more today will be the
larger trends, the statistics, and uh possibly the future. So Matt,
let's just start off with some stats. Huh Okay. According
(06:38):
to the two thousand and ten US Census, thirteen point
six percent of the US population identifies as African American.
That's less than one five of the United States population
as a whole. And when we did our video on
five frightening statistics about being Black in America, we started
with that as number one, which doesn't doesn't sound that
(07:01):
scary by itself, but yeah, it just gives context for
these other numbers that we're going to be throwing out here, right,
because we also found that despite being a smaller segment
of the population or a minority part of the population,
African Americans in general are disproportionately more likely to be detained, arrested,
(07:21):
or even prosecuted for a crime. Yeah. At least seventy departments,
uh police departments from Connecticut to California arrested black people
at a rate ten times higher than people who were
not black or not African American. That's according to USA Today.
And here's a statistic from the a c O you
that we found marijuana usage. Cannabis usage is roughly equal
(07:44):
among white people and black people. However, black people are
three points seven three times more likely to be arrested
for marijuana possession. And if somebody is arrested for a crime,
right and prosecution goes forward and they are convicted, then well,
let's say, okay, let's say that you have two friends,
(08:07):
Joe and John, and one of them is white, one
of them is black. They both get caught doing the
same crime, both get convicted. Statistically, the African American defendant
will have a longer, harsher sentence. According to the Wall
Street Journal, prison sentences from black men were nearly longer
(08:27):
than those for similar crimes for white men. And the
Wall Street Journal, to be fair, is not what you
would consider a tree hugging super liberal, abolished money, closed
all prisons kind of almost said, rag, but it's it's
a well respected newspapers, uh. And then we have more
from the Sentencing Project as studies that examine death penalty
(08:52):
cases have generally found that the vast majority of cases,
if the murder victim is white, the defendant is more
likely to receive a death sentence, no matter who they
are in a few jurisdictions, mainly the federal system. Minority defendants,
particularly black people, are more likely to receive a death
sentence in general. So what what we're seeing here? Um
(09:16):
and and of course these are not fully uh fleshed
out studies in a lot of ways, But what we're
seeing here is that the identity of the person convicted
or suspected of the crime seems to be having an
impact beyond the actual letter of the law for a
(09:38):
crime and a punishment, and even even the identity of
the victim. Yeah. Absolutely, and this this is troubling stuff.
I know that in recent years, with like the Trayvon
Martin case, with Michael Brown, uh and numerous other instances,
the American public became uh surprisingly divided, and people are saying, well,
(10:04):
this has become some sort of liberal or conservative cause
and started, I guess, I don't know. It's strange how
quickly things can divide a public, right, Yes, and and
both of those are very specific cases with things that
you can analyze, and a lot of times it seems
(10:25):
that those two cases in particular, or at least recently,
have been used to try and paint a picture of
this overall of a larger Yeah, of a larger thing.
And and of course, Matt, you and I are not lawyers. Well,
nol does a lot of stuff. No Noel might do
some law. I'm not sure. Maybe he. He strikes me
(10:48):
as someone who could definitely hold that hold it down
in the court room. So Noel does just a touch
of law. Between us, we are like point three lawyer.
But the reason we're saying that is that we are
not here to um, we're not here to for try
to force our own opinion on people. And I hope
(11:08):
that we can both do a good job on preaching
to myself here. I hope we both do a good
job of separating our opinion from our facts. And speaking
of facts, let's look at some more. Another thing we
can look at is the likelihood of imprisonment for males.
And this is again from the sentence the Sentencing Project
dot org. One in seventeen, Uh identify as white. So
(11:32):
if you are if you identify as white, you have
a one in seventeen chance of being in prison. If
you identify as black, you have a one in three
chance of going to prison at some point in your life. Yeah. Uh,
And also one in nine four men overall, So if
you're a man, you have more than a ten percent
(11:53):
chance of being in jail at some point. Yeah, that's
that's pretty that's pretty frightening. And that's throughout the United States.
That's an average that takes in everybody from the top
one percent of income to you know, the bottom and below.
It makes me, I was going to say, a person,
but it makes me I want to follow every rule
(12:16):
as closely as I possibly can to avoid that. Yeah,
there's another thing here. We'll we'll talk about the police shootings.
So despite being thirteen point six percent of the population, uh,
African Americans people identify as African Americans comprise about twenty
six percent of reported police shootings, and they are not
(12:40):
the most likely group to die in the course of
like a police arrest or detainment. Now, this was a
very surprising statistic that you found. Ben the most likely
part of the population in the US to be killed
by police, our Native Americans, Right, Yeah, the uh that's
(13:01):
point eight percent of the population, but one point nine
percent of the police killings. And these are based on
not the best numbers, no, but it's you know a
lot of these numbers actually aren't based on the best
information out there, because we don't have that information. We
(13:23):
you know, John Oliver talked about this. We've we've heard
this before. The tracking of of killings by law enforcement
is not up to snuff currently, at least from a
federal level. Right. Yeah, We found that federal databases that
do track use of force or rest related deaths by
(13:43):
police are painting a partial picture that you know, you'll have.
The FBI has a justifiable homicide list, right, and the
Department of Justice has a couple of different databases that
they maintain police departments, individual police departments, and again, these
can all be very very different, um within the state,
(14:07):
you know, not even considering what one state's kind of
police department approach would be to another one. In terms
of record keeping of the seventeen thousand roughly police departments
across the United States, um, many don't report or haven't
filed reports for these things, or have filed them in consistently.
And it kind of goes back to the question, you know,
(14:29):
is this a is this some sort of purposeful effort,
or is this something like another mountain of paperwork and
people have to actually go fight crime. You know, you
and I are no, no strangers, to just piles of
work that you have to get to. And I can
only imagine what that must be like. You know, you
(14:51):
need to track everything that happens within your police department
at all times. Every single police officer that's out on
the street has to make records of what they did
that day. And I can only imagine just what that
must be like to tackle, at least from a managerial perspective. So,
if the question is, uh, is the black male part
of the US population more likely to go to jail,
(15:16):
to be to be killed in the course of an arrest,
or to have a harsher sentence than someone else than
than the answer is yes. There is clear racial disparity
in various factors of law enforcement. And this is not
a controversial thing to say, and it's not a new
(15:36):
thing at all, No, and it's noticeable today. Um in
New York, San Diego, Las Vegas, the percentage of black
people killed by police was at least double that of
their share of the city's total population. That's a study
by a group called Color Lines, And we'll talk more
about that after a quick word from our sponsor. But
(16:04):
there is a silver lining here. If you want to
call it that the number of police killings or violence
by police officers has dramatically decreased since nineteen sixty. According
to the Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice, the the
police killings of African Americans over the age of has
decreased by six since then. And there's this is such
(16:27):
a such an interesting and kind of disturbing thing. I
I do agree that it is what what was your
phrase of silver lining, but it hasn't dropped to zero. Yeah,
and and absolutely is not enough. However, it's when you
take into context the way this stuff is reported on
(16:51):
sometimes that number to me was at least a bit
I don't I don't know. Um made it feel a
little less like there's a dark cloud and it was
kind of moving away, slightly well going. And also considering
that this number accounts for the sixties, you know, in
the civil rights movement, Uh, there was probably also a
(17:13):
spike of violence. UM, so that might be that might
be part of it. Uh. You know, earlier we said
that someone identifying as African American has a one one
in three chance of going to jail for something at
some point in in his life. That to make it
a little more immediate. A black male born in in
(17:37):
this country has a chance of going to prison at
some point. That's compared to uh sixteen percent for Latino
or self identifying and for white males four per cent.
So there's a clear, clear disparity here. And you know,
(17:59):
when we first started looking at this UM, you know,
we we were concerned because we didn't want to be
out there vilifying an entire organization or even uh lionizing
leonizing um a group of people, like people commit crimes
and people can be corrupt because they're people, right, And
(18:21):
we'll talk some more about the state of police and
the government and the people that the police in the
government are supposed to be working with. And four which
has also changed. We talked about this and swat teams.
But first, for anyone who has not heard this yet,
if you're listening to our show, then we assume you
(18:42):
already kind of knew about this. But let's have a
word about incarceration in the United States. Okay, Well, as
many of you know, the United States of America is
a world leader when it comes to incarceration. We've even
branched out to you know, putting more nationals in jail
as well. Sure, Yeah, um, black sites across the planet. Chicago,
(19:06):
anybody the Chicago UM, which I think was I think
that was a dark site for local protesters maybe maybe
who knows. Guantanamo, of course. And I believe that the
private the private prison company c c P is UH
(19:27):
is looking to branch out into creating immigration holding centers. Yeah,
they wanna expand Oh man, I was gonna come with
some euphemism for business, but I'm not even gonna go there.
Um that CCP. If any of you don't know, CCP,
UH is one of the topics that we've covered before
in the past, and I highly recommend you check out
(19:48):
some of our videos on I forget exactly what the
titles are, but there's some of our classic videos on
incarceration and UH privatization of prisons. That's exactly what it is,
privatization of prisons. So we we know that it's it's
weird because we're looking at this and I don't want
(20:08):
to make light of this, but for a long time
everybody has said that, well, the United States is the
number one country when it comes to imprisoning people in
front of UH. It beats China, it beats the former
Soviet States. It beats on. I don't know, what's another
(20:29):
country that people say has a lot of prisoners. Well,
we just talked about North Korea. It beats North Korea.
I think, um and it and you know, maybe that's
just because it has more people to incarcerate. But we're
actually number two depending on the way you measure it,
which I I don't subscribe to, but technically yes, number
(20:51):
one is h l um. The this strange thing about
that is that it's such a small places, such a
it's an island country, it's such a small place that um,
I don't know if it's a fair comparison, But according
to the INN double a c P from to two
thousand eight, the number of people incarcerated in America quadrupled
(21:13):
just just from just from a few years, yeah, from
roughly five hundred thousand to two point three million people
behind bars, which makes us well, okay, here's the biggest
fact that stands out to me. The United States and
its territories make up five of the world's population. However,
(21:36):
we have of the world's inmates, right, and this means
that combining the number of people in prison or jail
currently with the people who are under parole or probationary
supervision gives us number one in every thirty one adults.
That's three point two per cent of the population. Under
(21:58):
some form of the phrase that's often used as correctional
control that sounds kind of euphemisica everything from the ankle
bracelets up to federal penitential. And of the two point
three million incarcerated people in this country, to bring it
back around, how many would you guess are African American? Well,
(22:20):
here is the tough truth. African Americans right now constitute
nearly one million of the total two point three million
incarcerated of the in the population. So that's an incarceration
rate nearly six times the rate of white citizens. And uh,
even though African Americans and people identifying as Hispanic or
(22:44):
Latino make up about one quarter of the US population,
they comprise fifty eight percent of all prisoners at least
in two thousand eight. So if if this group, if
if we went by these like ethnic lines, right, um,
then or this these categories, then uh, if everybody was
(23:04):
treated the way that uh, the current correctional system treats
white citizens, then the incarceration rate and the prison jail
populations would decline by approximately correct. It's it's strange, it's clearly,
it's clearly there, and it's it's tragic that this often
(23:26):
gets boiled down in the media into some sort of
um dare I say it's some sort of them or
US idea? When when we did our video on this
earlier this week, um, one of the things that that
really stuck with me was this idea that how the
(23:48):
government or the police, because really, when we're talking about
the police, what we're ultimately talking about is the government, right,
some level of governance that is supposed to be for
the people of the country, right. Um. But when when
we were doing that video, one thing that that I
remember clear as day is uh noting that how the
(24:12):
government treats any American citizens should be the concern of
every American citizen and and you know residents as well.
Like what we've heard horror stories before foreign nationals visiting
the States on vacation or to see family members and
having having a really where family shows I'll say messed
(24:34):
up time. Well, it makes me think of that show
Locked Up Abroad, I think is the name of it
that shows you, oh man, and this this prison was
so terrible in this other country and the experiences of
American citizens when they were abroad. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
It makes you feel like we need to have an
inverted version of that somewhere, and I wonder if there
is one. There may well be, but uh, you know,
(24:56):
I'm glad that we don't live in a country that
has and official death penalty for some of the things
where where there there are countries where it's still the
death penalty if you are a homosexual. Is the death
penalty if you get caught with um any kind of marijuana? Well,
that's a different podcast. And one thing that we're running
(25:17):
into when we look at this this idea is uh
that we're we're finding strings that connect to other things,
some of which we've covered, like, uh, the the idea
of privatized prisons, some of which we haven't, Like, is
there a purposeful churn to the cycle of poverty? Right?
We looked at income inequality? That might be a different question.
(25:39):
So now it's time for us to talk about the
the arguments or the the allegations of conspiracy here. Um,
Like the media is making out these cases of unarmed
black men being shot to be more than they are. Uh,
that's that's one of the arguments, and they talk about
the bias in reporting. Okay, I can kind of see
(26:02):
this situation where the media, you know, when a tragedy
like this happens, it is a story. It is not
only a tragedy, is also a story, and it is
something that can keep a twenty four hour news cycle
going for a long time because there are a lot
of different parts. There's the initial investigation, there's the trial, uh,
(26:23):
there's all the things that happened in splinter off. Because
of that, I can see how maybe in today's world,
where there are just hundreds of news channels and websites
and vlogs and podcasts like ours, even that will take
something like the Michael Brown case and would expand it
(26:44):
out into this huge thing when really, you know, at
the crux of it, it was a man that got
shot by a law enforcement officer. In the case of
Michael Brown specifically, this is this is the young man
who was who was shot by an officer named Darren
(27:04):
Wilson in Ferguson suburb in Missouri around August fourteen. And
one thing that we found is, you know, Ferguson became
the site of protest and the US government came down
pretty hard to the point where the airspace was controlled.
(27:26):
There were there were there were all kinds of rumors
flying back and forth about what the police may or
may not be doing. And we really saw the potential
for how much power government can bring to bear on
the people if it wishes. Yes, And we also saw,
(27:46):
you know, the reaction of a whole group of people
there that were protesting because they saw something that they
thought was a pattern that actually seems to be a pattern.
Did you see some of the leaks that were not leaks,
but some of the information coming out about the first
in police department? Uh? Yeah, yeah, they Ferguson is, at
(28:11):
least from this perspective for what we're talking about, a
bad place to be, right. Uh. I think there were
pretty good statistics that indicated even in areas where where
a black person would be by far the minority in
this situation, they were also by far more likely to
be pulled over, to be detained, to have the threat
(28:34):
of use of force. Right. Uh. And there was one
statistic where the the findings indicated that white members of
the community were more likely to be driving with guns
or something, driving with unlicensed guns or something and carrying
drugs and carrying drugs. So yeah, that's the one and
far less likely to be pulled over. This is this
(28:56):
is something that leads people on the other side to say,
on the other side of the argument, to say, the
government is actively working to suppress Black America, especially males.
And unfortunately this has historically at least been the case slavery,
Jim Crow laws. Right. Arguably the prison system today, the
(29:21):
especially with the use of contracted out labor. Right. Yeah, well,
I mean I hate to say it, but voting rights restrictions.
Voting rights restrictions. Yeah, you cannot vote if you were
a felon. So what what this leads us to is, um,
and you know, again we'll say police are people too.
They're often constrained by top down rules and and one
(29:42):
of the arguments that you will hear in in favor
or maybe as a mitigating factor for police, is that
they're frequently put in fight or flight situations. Uh. These
are life and death things where seconds really can make
the difference. Um. With with that being said, uh, there's
there's a question here. Ties into militarization of police are
(30:03):
the current training tactics. Uh, the hardware and the vehicles
that are being increasingly distributed to domestic law enforcement places,
are they teaching these professionals? Are training these professionals rather
to see every citizen as a potential threat and lethal force.
(30:24):
A lot of the weaponry and systems that are being
provided for these police departments are based upon lethal force,
unless you look at some of the like the tactical
not it's not l red system, but it's the sound
I forget the name of it, but it's the the
sonic pain thing. Yeah, it makes you feel like your
(30:45):
skin is on fire. Yeah. And there's also the one
that just has that really piercing loud sound that we
saw in Ferguson um and it just makes you wonder
how much more non lethal force could be used. However,
on the other side, again, if you're going in with
non lethal force against somebody who was you know, going
(31:08):
to attack a police officer with lethal force, I mean,
what do you do there? Well? Those uh, those non
lethal weapons, you know, they're they're non lethal asterix right,
unless you're you know, ill or have a bad heart
or yeah, they're definitely still weapons. And those are for
crowd control more than an individual. Um. But this, This
(31:32):
brought up some questions that that we had for you
out there listening, Um, what what do you think about this,
this racial discrepancy in in law enforcement, in UH sentencing.
What what do you think the future of the police
and race in America is going to be? No, Matt,
(31:54):
this makes me think of, um, some some interesting stuff
because remember we did Net neutral Reality recently, and we
had so many letters from you guys saying, well, net
neutrality or this Open Internet Order is just a backdoor
version of SOAPA, which was what was SOAPA meant. SOPA
(32:15):
was something that did get passed by the House of
Representatives a little while ago, at least I think I
can't remember the sober people the one was passed by
a House and then shut down by the Senate. Anyway,
it was. It was failed legislation that was going to
do a lot of things to control the Internet, and
there were it was mostly for corporations to benefit corporations,
(32:39):
and then also for the government to have control over
the Internet if they needed if they needed it. So
we received some letters about about this saying, you know,
arguing that the Open Internet Order was essentially a trojan horse.
And then it makes me wonder if we could find
a future where the where the answer to uh, discrepancy
(33:00):
or or prejudice in law enforcement would be something like
robot police, right, robotic police who who have some sort
of access to your history already and can objectively make
a decision about, you know, if you're breaking the law,
or what about what about pre crime? What about using
(33:21):
big data to predict the future, which is something we're
gonna be talking about later. I think that's something we're
going to see whether we like it or not, whether
or not it's actually effective. I guess we'll find out
by the statistics that will be made up. Yeah. It
reminds me of Isaac Asimov's Foundation series um where this
(33:42):
guy named Selden invents something he calls psychohistory, and the
idea is that if you take a large enough population size,
you can begin to predict the future. And it doesn't
work for individuals, right, only works for big systems exactly.
And I wonder if we could be in that kind
(34:03):
of situation, if that will be what is presented as
a solution to to what is a real problem. But
with pre crime, Ben, We've talked about this before. If
you arrest someone for a crime they were imminently going
to commit. There is no way to prove that they
were actually going to commit that crime, even if you
(34:23):
have data showing that they they most likely or with probability,
would have committed the crime until there's a legal precedent set.
Then after it's Katie by the door, or if there
we can somehow buffer reality, so there's like a ten
minute buffer on real time where this system operates ten
(34:44):
minutes in the future. I'm sorry, I'm just I mean,
if that was if that's possible, then one thing human
history has shown us is the first thing people will
do is use it as some kind of snooze button.
It won't be used effectively. It'll be like an extra
ten minutes to sleep. That I yeah, I'm cool with
it too. Um. So we've delved into statistics and some
(35:08):
facts and some statements and some analysis, and one of
the most devilishly difficult things about this again was that
there was so little comprehensive data. You know, we've got
little pieces of the pie, we've got little pieces of
the puzzle. But if there is some group or institution,
(35:30):
you know, maybe the n essay, Hi, guys, if you're listening.
If if they're tracking building a comprehensive database of of
these sorts of offenses, then it's something that needs to
be out in the public eye people. People need to know. Yeah,
but how effective is it if it's in the public eye, Ben,
I don't know. We should take a road trip to Utah.
(35:51):
Let's do it. So everyone, we want to hear from you.
Are you a law enforcement officer and have experience with
this type of stuff, please write to us. We would
love to get some perspective. Um. Also, if you've had
run ins with law enforcement and you want to tell
us about that, please do. We'd love to hear from you.
You can find us on Facebook, you can find us
(36:13):
on Twitter where conspiracy stuff on both of those And
that's the end of this classic episode. If you have
any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can get
into contact with us in a number of different ways.
One of the best is to give us a call.
Our number is one eight three three st d w
y t K. If you don't want to do that,
(36:33):
you can send us a good old fashioned email. We
are conspiracy at I Heart radio dot com. Stuff they
don't want you to know is a production of i
heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit
the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
So, Matt, I think I mentioned a while back. I
barely got out of Chile right when the lockdown for
coronavirus began. It was very fortunate to get out, very
fortunate to go and return safely in the first place.
But one thing I noticed is that Chile, like many
places in South America, has militarized its police force. M
(00:24):
that sounds familiar. Yeah, it's definitely something that has been
happening in the United States for quite a while, and
for the past few years here we've been discussing as
a nation, what the heck do police departments really do
you know, for communities in which they operate and back
(00:45):
we asked that question and we made this episode. I'm
interested to know how you, you know, see this conversation
changing since we recorded this episode, So please listen to
it and give us your thoughts. From UFOs two, Ghosts
and Government cover ups. History is riddled with unexplained events.
(01:05):
You can turn back now or learn the stuff they
don't want you to now. Greetings, Welcome back to the show.
My name is Matt and I'm Ben. We're here with
our super producer Noel Sirens on Brown, which means that
this is stuff they don't want you to know. Oh good, okay,
(01:29):
yes we're in the right place, and hopefully so are you,
ladies and gentlemen. Uh Matt put story. When I was younger,
when you were younger, I guess we're all younger if
we're talking about the past. There was a show on
television which I think might still be on called Cops
yess reloaded now I believe, maybe not. I know I've
(01:52):
seen that somewhere on the TV. Guy And as a kid,
I had this superstition at if ever I sang the
theme song out loud, something bad would happen, like you
would summon police or criminals. I'm not too clear on it. Again,
I was a kid, just something bad, and it's something
(02:14):
that I've stuck with today. Now. I'm not bothered, of course,
if anybody else is singing around me or if I
hear it. But as as ridiculous as I know that
is intellectually, there's still just a little part of me
that hesitates, because I, like most people in the United States,
(02:35):
want absolutely no problem with police officers. Absolutely. I have
a quick story. Yeah, So the house that I lived
next to, I take my dogs out in the backyard.
We have a little fenced in area, and I noticed
that my house just next to mine, the back door
to the basement was wide open and the lights were on.
(02:56):
This is around eleven o'clock at night when I noticed this,
and I didn't think too much of it, you know,
maybe they're airing out the basement, maybe so much, just
working and so anyway, I just went back inside. Well,
for the next three nights, I noticed that it was
in the exact same state when I would take my
dogs out, and I started getting a little worried. You know,
(03:17):
what if somebody in the house, you know, fell or
something and got hurt while I'm cleaning, you know. So
I ended up calling the police department, and I it
was the first time I've actually called the police department. Um,
because I was a little nervous. I don't know if
you would have been nervous, but I didn't want to
just walk into my neighbor's home to check and see
if everything is all right. Yeah, no, I don't. I don't.
(03:39):
I wouldn't do that unless I knew them pretty well. Well.
Maybe in the past I probably would have, especially if
I was a bit younger, but now, for some reason,
my maybe it's just the amount of television shows I've
watched with police investigations, Like I didn't want my prints
to be in the house, like my footprints or anything
to be in the house in case anything bad had happened,
(04:01):
or if there was a crime scene, to do anything
to compromise it. Like I was terrified. So I called
the police and they came and they looked at the house. Um,
but I have to admit I felt really tense when
the police officers were there. Was it? Uh what what
did they find? Just how to have no idea? I
I didn't stay stick around. They dealt with me very coldly,
(04:24):
and I don't know that it was just it was
an experience that I don't know that I would do
it again. I would probably find the homeowners association whatever.
There isn't one where I live, but something to that effect.
And I don't think you could call nine one reports
something suspicious. It would have to be an emergency or
(04:45):
like a crime in progress. And I had no idea
what the state was. Right, Well, I hope things were
doubt did someone live at that house? Someone did, but
I think there were tenants and they moved out. Okay, well,
maybe it was a squatter or something. Yeah, who knows.
I have no information, but anyway, just wanted to reiterate
my uneasiness and that I felt even calling the police.
(05:09):
And there have been generational attitude changes toward law enforcement. Now,
whether you think that is a result of changing laws
or incarceration rates, or whether you think that's just something
in pop culture, the zeitgeist. Either way it is. It
is true that people have changed their opinions. And today
(05:30):
we are talking about a topic that has been on
people's minds for a a number of years, recently in
particular right. But we're also going to find that this
is part of something that dates far far back in
American history. What we were talking about today, ladies and gentlemen,
(05:51):
is law enforcement and race. And before we jump into
a bunch of statistics and stuff, I want to make
sure that people know this is not a This is
not a podcast intended to um take pot shots at
police officers, um, many of whom die in the line
of duty. Absolutely not. I don't know. I can't remember
(06:15):
if you have any law enforcement in your family, but
I have some of my family. And this is not
nothing against law enforcement officers in general at all. Right,
What what we're talking about more today will be the
larger trends, the statistics, and uh possibly the future. So Matt,
let's just start off with some stats. Huh Okay. According
(06:38):
to the two thousand and ten US Census, thirteen point
six percent of the US population identifies as African American.
That's less than one five of the United States population
as a whole. And when we did our video on
five frightening statistics about being Black in America, we started
with that as number one, which doesn't doesn't sound that
(07:01):
scary by itself, but yeah, it just gives context for
these other numbers that we're going to be throwing out here, right,
because we also found that despite being a smaller segment
of the population or a minority part of the population,
African Americans in general are disproportionately more likely to be detained, arrested,
(07:21):
or even prosecuted for a crime. Yeah. At least seventy departments,
uh police departments from Connecticut to California arrested black people
at a rate ten times higher than people who were
not black or not African American. That's according to USA Today.
And here's a statistic from the a c O you
that we found marijuana usage. Cannabis usage is roughly equal
(07:44):
among white people and black people. However, black people are
three points seven three times more likely to be arrested
for marijuana possession. And if somebody is arrested for a crime,
right and prosecution goes forward and they are convicted, then well,
let's say, okay, let's say that you have two friends,
(08:07):
Joe and John, and one of them is white, one
of them is black. They both get caught doing the
same crime, both get convicted. Statistically, the African American defendant
will have a longer, harsher sentence. According to the Wall
Street Journal, prison sentences from black men were nearly longer
(08:27):
than those for similar crimes for white men. And the
Wall Street Journal, to be fair, is not what you
would consider a tree hugging super liberal, abolished money, closed
all prisons kind of almost said, rag, but it's it's
a well respected newspapers, uh. And then we have more
from the Sentencing Project as studies that examine death penalty
(08:52):
cases have generally found that the vast majority of cases,
if the murder victim is white, the defendant is more
likely to receive a death sentence, no matter who they
are in a few jurisdictions, mainly the federal system. Minority defendants,
particularly black people, are more likely to receive a death
sentence in general. So what what we're seeing here? Um
(09:16):
and and of course these are not fully uh fleshed
out studies in a lot of ways, But what we're
seeing here is that the identity of the person convicted
or suspected of the crime seems to be having an
impact beyond the actual letter of the law for a
(09:38):
crime and a punishment, and even even the identity of
the victim. Yeah. Absolutely, and this this is troubling stuff.
I know that in recent years, with like the Trayvon
Martin case, with Michael Brown, uh and numerous other instances,
the American public became uh surprisingly divided, and people are saying, well,
(10:04):
this has become some sort of liberal or conservative cause
and started, I guess, I don't know. It's strange how
quickly things can divide a public, right, Yes, and and
both of those are very specific cases with things that
you can analyze, and a lot of times it seems
(10:25):
that those two cases in particular, or at least recently,
have been used to try and paint a picture of
this overall of a larger Yeah, of a larger thing.
And and of course, Matt, you and I are not lawyers. Well,
nol does a lot of stuff. No Noel might do
some law. I'm not sure. Maybe he. He strikes me
(10:48):
as someone who could definitely hold that hold it down
in the court room. So Noel does just a touch
of law. Between us, we are like point three lawyer.
But the reason we're saying that is that we are
not here to um, we're not here to for try
to force our own opinion on people. And I hope
(11:08):
that we can both do a good job on preaching
to myself here. I hope we both do a good
job of separating our opinion from our facts. And speaking
of facts, let's look at some more. Another thing we
can look at is the likelihood of imprisonment for males.
And this is again from the sentence the Sentencing Project
dot org. One in seventeen, Uh identify as white. So
(11:32):
if you are if you identify as white, you have
a one in seventeen chance of being in prison. If
you identify as black, you have a one in three
chance of going to prison at some point in your life. Yeah. Uh,
And also one in nine four men overall, So if
you're a man, you have more than a ten percent
(11:53):
chance of being in jail at some point. Yeah, that's
that's pretty that's pretty frightening. And that's throughout the United States.
That's an average that takes in everybody from the top
one percent of income to you know, the bottom and below.
It makes me, I was going to say, a person,
but it makes me I want to follow every rule
(12:16):
as closely as I possibly can to avoid that. Yeah,
there's another thing here. We'll we'll talk about the police shootings.
So despite being thirteen point six percent of the population, uh,
African Americans people identify as African Americans comprise about twenty
six percent of reported police shootings, and they are not
(12:40):
the most likely group to die in the course of
like a police arrest or detainment. Now, this was a
very surprising statistic that you found. Ben the most likely
part of the population in the US to be killed
by police, our Native Americans, Right, Yeah, the uh that's
(13:01):
point eight percent of the population, but one point nine
percent of the police killings. And these are based on
not the best numbers, no, but it's you know a
lot of these numbers actually aren't based on the best
information out there, because we don't have that information. We
(13:23):
you know, John Oliver talked about this. We've we've heard
this before. The tracking of of killings by law enforcement
is not up to snuff currently, at least from a
federal level. Right. Yeah, We found that federal databases that
do track use of force or rest related deaths by
(13:43):
police are painting a partial picture that you know, you'll have.
The FBI has a justifiable homicide list, right, and the
Department of Justice has a couple of different databases that
they maintain police departments, individual police departments, and again, these
can all be very very different, um within the state,
(14:07):
you know, not even considering what one state's kind of
police department approach would be to another one. In terms
of record keeping of the seventeen thousand roughly police departments
across the United States, um, many don't report or haven't
filed reports for these things, or have filed them in consistently.
And it kind of goes back to the question, you know,
(14:29):
is this a is this some sort of purposeful effort,
or is this something like another mountain of paperwork and
people have to actually go fight crime. You know, you
and I are no, no strangers, to just piles of
work that you have to get to. And I can
only imagine what that must be like. You know, you
(14:51):
need to track everything that happens within your police department
at all times. Every single police officer that's out on
the street has to make records of what they did
that day. And I can only imagine just what that
must be like to tackle, at least from a managerial perspective. So,
if the question is, uh, is the black male part
of the US population more likely to go to jail,
(15:16):
to be to be killed in the course of an arrest,
or to have a harsher sentence than someone else than
than the answer is yes. There is clear racial disparity
in various factors of law enforcement. And this is not
a controversial thing to say, and it's not a new
(15:36):
thing at all, No, and it's noticeable today. Um in
New York, San Diego, Las Vegas, the percentage of black
people killed by police was at least double that of
their share of the city's total population. That's a study
by a group called Color Lines, And we'll talk more
about that after a quick word from our sponsor. But
(16:04):
there is a silver lining here. If you want to
call it that the number of police killings or violence
by police officers has dramatically decreased since nineteen sixty. According
to the Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice, the the
police killings of African Americans over the age of has
decreased by six since then. And there's this is such
(16:27):
a such an interesting and kind of disturbing thing. I
I do agree that it is what what was your
phrase of silver lining, but it hasn't dropped to zero. Yeah,
and and absolutely is not enough. However, it's when you
take into context the way this stuff is reported on
(16:51):
sometimes that number to me was at least a bit
I don't I don't know. Um made it feel a
little less like there's a dark cloud and it was
kind of moving away, slightly well going. And also considering
that this number accounts for the sixties, you know, in
the civil rights movement, Uh, there was probably also a
(17:13):
spike of violence. UM, so that might be that might
be part of it. Uh. You know, earlier we said
that someone identifying as African American has a one one
in three chance of going to jail for something at
some point in in his life. That to make it
a little more immediate. A black male born in in
(17:37):
this country has a chance of going to prison at
some point. That's compared to uh sixteen percent for Latino
or self identifying and for white males four per cent.
So there's a clear, clear disparity here. And you know,
(17:59):
when we first started looking at this UM, you know,
we we were concerned because we didn't want to be
out there vilifying an entire organization or even uh lionizing
leonizing um a group of people, like people commit crimes
and people can be corrupt because they're people, right, And
(18:21):
we'll talk some more about the state of police and
the government and the people that the police in the
government are supposed to be working with. And four which
has also changed. We talked about this and swat teams.
But first, for anyone who has not heard this yet,
if you're listening to our show, then we assume you
(18:42):
already kind of knew about this. But let's have a
word about incarceration in the United States. Okay, Well, as
many of you know, the United States of America is
a world leader when it comes to incarceration. We've even
branched out to you know, putting more nationals in jail
as well. Sure, Yeah, um, black sites across the planet. Chicago,
(19:06):
anybody the Chicago UM, which I think was I think
that was a dark site for local protesters maybe maybe
who knows. Guantanamo, of course. And I believe that the
private the private prison company c c P is UH
(19:27):
is looking to branch out into creating immigration holding centers. Yeah,
they wanna expand Oh man, I was gonna come with
some euphemism for business, but I'm not even gonna go there.
Um that CCP. If any of you don't know, CCP,
UH is one of the topics that we've covered before
in the past, and I highly recommend you check out
(19:48):
some of our videos on I forget exactly what the
titles are, but there's some of our classic videos on
incarceration and UH privatization of prisons. That's exactly what it is,
privatization of prisons. So we we know that it's it's
weird because we're looking at this and I don't want
(20:08):
to make light of this, but for a long time
everybody has said that, well, the United States is the
number one country when it comes to imprisoning people in
front of UH. It beats China, it beats the former
Soviet States. It beats on. I don't know, what's another
(20:29):
country that people say has a lot of prisoners. Well,
we just talked about North Korea. It beats North Korea.
I think, um and it and you know, maybe that's
just because it has more people to incarcerate. But we're
actually number two depending on the way you measure it,
which I I don't subscribe to, but technically yes, number
(20:51):
one is h l um. The this strange thing about
that is that it's such a small places, such a
it's an island country, it's such a small place that um,
I don't know if it's a fair comparison, But according
to the INN double a c P from to two
thousand eight, the number of people incarcerated in America quadrupled
(21:13):
just just from just from a few years, yeah, from
roughly five hundred thousand to two point three million people
behind bars, which makes us well, okay, here's the biggest
fact that stands out to me. The United States and
its territories make up five of the world's population. However,
(21:36):
we have of the world's inmates, right, and this means
that combining the number of people in prison or jail
currently with the people who are under parole or probationary
supervision gives us number one in every thirty one adults.
That's three point two per cent of the population. Under
(21:58):
some form of the phrase that's often used as correctional
control that sounds kind of euphemisica everything from the ankle
bracelets up to federal penitential. And of the two point
three million incarcerated people in this country, to bring it
back around, how many would you guess are African American? Well,
(22:20):
here is the tough truth. African Americans right now constitute
nearly one million of the total two point three million
incarcerated of the in the population. So that's an incarceration
rate nearly six times the rate of white citizens. And uh,
even though African Americans and people identifying as Hispanic or
(22:44):
Latino make up about one quarter of the US population,
they comprise fifty eight percent of all prisoners at least
in two thousand eight. So if if this group, if
if we went by these like ethnic lines, right, um,
then or this these categories, then uh, if everybody was
(23:04):
treated the way that uh, the current correctional system treats
white citizens, then the incarceration rate and the prison jail
populations would decline by approximately correct. It's it's strange, it's clearly,
it's clearly there, and it's it's tragic that this often
(23:26):
gets boiled down in the media into some sort of
um dare I say it's some sort of them or
US idea? When when we did our video on this
earlier this week, um, one of the things that that
really stuck with me was this idea that how the
(23:48):
government or the police, because really, when we're talking about
the police, what we're ultimately talking about is the government, right,
some level of governance that is supposed to be for
the people of the country, right. Um. But when when
we were doing that video, one thing that that I
remember clear as day is uh noting that how the
(24:12):
government treats any American citizens should be the concern of
every American citizen and and you know residents as well.
Like what we've heard horror stories before foreign nationals visiting
the States on vacation or to see family members and
having having a really where family shows I'll say messed
(24:34):
up time. Well, it makes me think of that show
Locked Up Abroad, I think is the name of it
that shows you, oh man, and this this prison was
so terrible in this other country and the experiences of
American citizens when they were abroad. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
It makes you feel like we need to have an
inverted version of that somewhere, and I wonder if there
is one. There may well be, but uh, you know,
(24:56):
I'm glad that we don't live in a country that
has and official death penalty for some of the things
where where there there are countries where it's still the
death penalty if you are a homosexual. Is the death
penalty if you get caught with um any kind of marijuana? Well,
that's a different podcast. And one thing that we're running
(25:17):
into when we look at this this idea is uh
that we're we're finding strings that connect to other things,
some of which we've covered, like, uh, the the idea
of privatized prisons, some of which we haven't, Like, is
there a purposeful churn to the cycle of poverty? Right?
We looked at income inequality? That might be a different question.
(25:39):
So now it's time for us to talk about the
the arguments or the the allegations of conspiracy here. Um,
Like the media is making out these cases of unarmed
black men being shot to be more than they are. Uh,
that's that's one of the arguments, and they talk about
the bias in reporting. Okay, I can kind of see
(26:02):
this situation where the media, you know, when a tragedy
like this happens, it is a story. It is not
only a tragedy, is also a story, and it is
something that can keep a twenty four hour news cycle
going for a long time because there are a lot
of different parts. There's the initial investigation, there's the trial, uh,
(26:23):
there's all the things that happened in splinter off. Because
of that, I can see how maybe in today's world,
where there are just hundreds of news channels and websites
and vlogs and podcasts like ours, even that will take
something like the Michael Brown case and would expand it
(26:44):
out into this huge thing when really, you know, at
the crux of it, it was a man that got
shot by a law enforcement officer. In the case of
Michael Brown specifically, this is this is the young man
who was who was shot by an officer named Darren
(27:04):
Wilson in Ferguson suburb in Missouri around August fourteen. And
one thing that we found is, you know, Ferguson became
the site of protest and the US government came down
pretty hard to the point where the airspace was controlled.
(27:26):
There were there were there were all kinds of rumors
flying back and forth about what the police may or
may not be doing. And we really saw the potential
for how much power government can bring to bear on
the people if it wishes. Yes, And we also saw,
(27:46):
you know, the reaction of a whole group of people
there that were protesting because they saw something that they
thought was a pattern that actually seems to be a pattern.
Did you see some of the leaks that were not leaks,
but some of the information coming out about the first
in police department? Uh? Yeah, yeah, they Ferguson is, at
(28:11):
least from this perspective for what we're talking about, a
bad place to be, right. Uh. I think there were
pretty good statistics that indicated even in areas where where
a black person would be by far the minority in
this situation, they were also by far more likely to
be pulled over, to be detained, to have the threat
(28:34):
of use of force. Right. Uh. And there was one
statistic where the the findings indicated that white members of
the community were more likely to be driving with guns
or something, driving with unlicensed guns or something and carrying
drugs and carrying drugs. So yeah, that's the one and
far less likely to be pulled over. This is this
(28:56):
is something that leads people on the other side to say,
on the other side of the argument, to say, the
government is actively working to suppress Black America, especially males.
And unfortunately this has historically at least been the case slavery,
Jim Crow laws. Right. Arguably the prison system today, the
(29:21):
especially with the use of contracted out labor. Right. Yeah, well,
I mean I hate to say it, but voting rights restrictions.
Voting rights restrictions. Yeah, you cannot vote if you were
a felon. So what what this leads us to is, um,
and you know, again we'll say police are people too.
They're often constrained by top down rules and and one
(29:42):
of the arguments that you will hear in in favor
or maybe as a mitigating factor for police, is that
they're frequently put in fight or flight situations. Uh. These
are life and death things where seconds really can make
the difference. Um. With with that being said, uh, there's
there's a question here. Ties into militarization of police are
(30:03):
the current training tactics. Uh, the hardware and the vehicles
that are being increasingly distributed to domestic law enforcement places,
are they teaching these professionals? Are training these professionals rather
to see every citizen as a potential threat and lethal force.
(30:24):
A lot of the weaponry and systems that are being
provided for these police departments are based upon lethal force,
unless you look at some of the like the tactical
not it's not l red system, but it's the sound
I forget the name of it, but it's the the
sonic pain thing. Yeah, it makes you feel like your
(30:45):
skin is on fire. Yeah. And there's also the one
that just has that really piercing loud sound that we
saw in Ferguson um and it just makes you wonder
how much more non lethal force could be used. However,
on the other side, again, if you're going in with
non lethal force against somebody who was you know, going
(31:08):
to attack a police officer with lethal force, I mean,
what do you do there? Well? Those uh, those non
lethal weapons, you know, they're they're non lethal asterix right,
unless you're you know, ill or have a bad heart
or yeah, they're definitely still weapons. And those are for
crowd control more than an individual. Um. But this, This
(31:32):
brought up some questions that that we had for you
out there listening, Um, what what do you think about this,
this racial discrepancy in in law enforcement, in UH sentencing.
What what do you think the future of the police
and race in America is going to be? No, Matt,
(31:54):
this makes me think of, um, some some interesting stuff
because remember we did Net neutral Reality recently, and we
had so many letters from you guys saying, well, net
neutrality or this Open Internet Order is just a backdoor
version of SOAPA, which was what was SOAPA meant. SOPA
(32:15):
was something that did get passed by the House of
Representatives a little while ago, at least I think I
can't remember the sober people the one was passed by
a House and then shut down by the Senate. Anyway,
it was. It was failed legislation that was going to
do a lot of things to control the Internet, and
there were it was mostly for corporations to benefit corporations,
(32:39):
and then also for the government to have control over
the Internet if they needed if they needed it. So
we received some letters about about this saying, you know,
arguing that the Open Internet Order was essentially a trojan horse.
And then it makes me wonder if we could find
a future where the where the answer to uh, discrepancy
(33:00):
or or prejudice in law enforcement would be something like
robot police, right, robotic police who who have some sort
of access to your history already and can objectively make
a decision about, you know, if you're breaking the law,
or what about what about pre crime? What about using
(33:21):
big data to predict the future, which is something we're
gonna be talking about later. I think that's something we're
going to see whether we like it or not, whether
or not it's actually effective. I guess we'll find out
by the statistics that will be made up. Yeah. It
reminds me of Isaac Asimov's Foundation series um where this
(33:42):
guy named Selden invents something he calls psychohistory, and the
idea is that if you take a large enough population size,
you can begin to predict the future. And it doesn't
work for individuals, right, only works for big systems exactly.
And I wonder if we could be in that kind
(34:03):
of situation, if that will be what is presented as
a solution to to what is a real problem. But
with pre crime, Ben, We've talked about this before. If
you arrest someone for a crime they were imminently going
to commit. There is no way to prove that they
were actually going to commit that crime, even if you
(34:23):
have data showing that they they most likely or with probability,
would have committed the crime until there's a legal precedent set.
Then after it's Katie by the door, or if there
we can somehow buffer reality, so there's like a ten
minute buffer on real time where this system operates ten
(34:44):
minutes in the future. I'm sorry, I'm just I mean,
if that was if that's possible, then one thing human
history has shown us is the first thing people will
do is use it as some kind of snooze button.
It won't be used effectively. It'll be like an extra
ten minutes to sleep. That I yeah, I'm cool with
it too. Um. So we've delved into statistics and some
(35:08):
facts and some statements and some analysis, and one of
the most devilishly difficult things about this again was that
there was so little comprehensive data. You know, we've got
little pieces of the pie, we've got little pieces of
the puzzle. But if there is some group or institution,
(35:30):
you know, maybe the n essay, Hi, guys, if you're listening.
If if they're tracking building a comprehensive database of of
these sorts of offenses, then it's something that needs to
be out in the public eye people. People need to know. Yeah,
but how effective is it if it's in the public eye, Ben,
I don't know. We should take a road trip to Utah.
(35:51):
Let's do it. So everyone, we want to hear from you.
Are you a law enforcement officer and have experience with
this type of stuff, please write to us. We would
love to get some perspective. Um. Also, if you've had
run ins with law enforcement and you want to tell
us about that, please do. We'd love to hear from you.
You can find us on Facebook, you can find us
(36:13):
on Twitter where conspiracy stuff on both of those And
that's the end of this classic episode. If you have
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into contact with us in a number of different ways.
One of the best is to give us a call.
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(36:33):
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