February 28, 2023 • 53 mins
You've probably heard of the infamous (and controversial) Bermuda Triangle, that alleged site of numerous disappearing aircraft and oceangoing vessels... but have you heard of the Dragon's Triangle, its counterpart in the Pacific Ocean? Join the guys as they dive headfirst into the conspiratorial lore surrounding vile vortices, as well as the fact -- and fiction -- surrounding the so-called Devil's Sea.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, fellow conspiracy realist. If you've been with us for
a while now, or if you're tuning into the show
for the first time ever, we're pretty confident you've heard
of the Bermuda Triangle, right, But have you heard of
the counterpart in the Pacific Ocean. That's what we talked
about in our classic episode this week, the so called
(00:21):
Dragons Triangle. Do you guys remember this one? Most definitely
the same kind of things that happened in the Bermuda Triangle,
but just in a different part of the world. Come on,
what could you not like about this? Let's dive in
from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
(00:45):
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello,
welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my
name is Noel. They call me Ben. You are you?
(01:06):
And that makes this stuff they don't want you to know.
We are joined by our super producer Alex Williams in
on the ones and twos today in the booth. Are
there more than one? Yeah, we have a we have
a We've expanded two and threes by my account, that's
fair oh, you meant more than one whatever stereo channels,
It's true. There you go. That's the ones in the
(01:27):
twos except our m P three's are mono. So we're
working on changing there. Yeah, we're working on all sorts
of things today. And if we don't take a if
we don't take an ill fated trip, all of those
things would come true. Just a bit of a bureaucratic
notation here. Before we begin today's episode, you're going to
(01:47):
see some some big changes coming up with the stuff
they'll want you to know. Should we give them the
full scoop I don't know, I don't know two inside baseball,
or should we do like a dippin dot kind of thing.
We could just say we've been hashtag blessed with funding
from on high, which could mean more and more shows expansions.
(02:11):
There's a tech Yeah, there's a tech Crunch article you
can find if you wish to learn all about it.
M Yeah, and we are you know, we have our
parent company How Stuff Works. We are now officially our
own thing with how Stuff Works. So now if now,
if Matt Nolan I say this goes all the way
(02:34):
to the top. We're talking about the guy who works
next next to us. Okay, in our previous episode, well,
the episode we previously recorded, we mentioned some maritime adventures, right,
and Noel, you and I have not been on cruises,
however our compatriot has. Yes, do we want to rehash
(02:58):
the cruises again? Boys? Don't have to? You were you?
Weren't You didn't hate it, right, I didn't hate it?
And uh, it was a thing. It was a thing
that happened, yes, and it was a creepy and cruise right,
which brought us to brought you perhaps to something that
many people have heard of, the Bermuda Triangle. Yes, I
(03:22):
was near it, but not in it. And yet here
you sit, right, I made it through you guys reporting back.
It was it was a little weird, but it was cool.
And that is the as you know that as the
alleged side of numerous plane crashes, boat sinkings, and disappearances. Yeah, yeah,
(03:44):
But today we're going to examine the alleged eastern version
of this, the so called Devil's Triangle. According to legends,
there have been tens of thousands of people who've tried
to cross this stretch of ocean, only to perish or
disappear in the attempt in the modern era, so it
(04:05):
goes to the story. Several Japanese research and military vessels
have also gone missing in this triangle, leading to a
number of dead and disappeared estimated to be over seven
hundred people. Pretty pretty hefty stuff. We'll get those claims
in a bit. First, let's let's look at the facts.
What are we talking about when we say Devil's Triangle. Well,
(04:28):
it's not only known at the Devil's Triangle. It's also
called the Devil's c the Dragon's Triangle, and the Taiwan Triangle,
And just as with the Bermuda Triangle, it's even sometimes
called the Devil's triangle Don Don doung. Yeah, so it
gets weird when we ask each other, you know, well,
(04:49):
where is this? What was devil c Dragon's Triangle, Taiwan triangle,
because there's no official world map that plots this. Yeah,
it's written all over the place online where it's supposed
to run from. You know, it's a triangle, so in
theory it should have some pretty defined areas in which
(05:11):
it is affecting the world around it. Usually it's said
to run from Taiwan up to the volcanic island of
miyake Jima that's just south of Tokyo, and then to
about Iwajima or somewhere in that vicinity pretty close. Both
of those locations are along something called the Ezu Mooning
(05:31):
Volcanic Arc. That's a line of underwater volcanoes and islands
that stretch, well, they're part of a larger system that
stretches twenty five hundred kilometers all the way from Japan
to Guam. And some people, like the author Charles Berlitz,
say that the Devil's Sea, which I think is my
(05:52):
favorite name so far, what do you think I think
Devil's c is quite I like ascribing a shape to it,
implying that it's sort of a zone. See, yeah, it's
pretty is like the whole sea, right, Yeah, it's a
sea that exists in itself within park the ocean. Yeah,
I don't know. That's a good point. We didn't need
to have parameters. Well, according to this author, Charles Burlet's,
(06:13):
the Devil's Triangle is every bit as dangerous and mysterious
as the Bermuda Triangle. And we can imagine right now
how the people who are very dismissive of the Bermuda
Triangle might find this hilarious. Somebody is actually in their
car right now going that is true, oh me, oh my,
(06:38):
for sure. But then there are other people in the
audiences who, as soon as they hear Devil's triangle, they
think of the vile vortices, which is something that has
been traded around amongst the mysteriously minded for quite a while.
Vile vortices. Okay, what's a vile vortices? Oh wait, that's
(06:59):
the plural, m What are vile vortices? Man? Well, a
vile vortex is a concept, really, it's the idea that
there's perhaps something strange going on with either the Earth's
electromagnetic system. It's the way it functions. Maybe it's a
little stronger in this place than anywhere else, and odd
(07:22):
things tend to happen with metal objects and living beings. Okay,
all right. So the idea then is that these are
distributed across the planet. Yes, precisely, there are. There is
a map of sorts that you can find and it
(07:42):
shows you where there's one at the north pole and
there's one at the South pole, and then the rest
of them are kind of polka dotted in a pattern,
albeit across the Earth and we can trace this idea
specifically to the author Ivan T. Sanderson, and he is
the sort of a lot of these claims. When he
first proposed this concept, other authors took it up and
(08:06):
they attributed different causes as the source of the alleged disruption. Right, So,
like you said, Matt, electromagnetic stuff gateway to hell, paranormal
things portal to another dimension maybe extra dimensional, yeah, extra
dimensional portals. And we have a rundown of the of
(08:29):
the vortices that you mentioned, Matt, that are distributed across
the planet. Ladies and gentlemen, would you like to know
where they are? Okay, let's start at the North and
South pole, if that's okay, just because that's kind of obvious.
If you're talking about electromagnetic strangeness, you're going to have
perhaps some things going on at the North and South pole.
(08:49):
Then you move on to the Bermuda triangle that's the
you know, the granddaddy of these vortices. Then you got
the Algerian megaliths. This is just south of tim book too,
and there you can find this stuff online if you
want to learn more about these other specific vorticase and
perhaps you know, we can pick some of these up later.
(09:11):
The Indus Valley over in Pakistan. There's oh, there's a
volcano just east of Hawaii. That's a pretty interesting place.
We got the Devil c the one we're talking about today,
the Triangle, whatever you want to call it. There's a
oh well, I'm gonna save this one for last, the
(09:31):
Wharton Basin, and you can you can find a link
to that on Wikipedia and check that out. The Eastern
Island megalist the statues, the just east of Rio de Janeiro.
There's a section an area over there that's said to
be part of this. The Loyalty Islands, which are I
believe between just north of the intersection, or I guess
(09:54):
the area between New Zealand and Australia. Okay, then my
favorite one by are the South Atlantic Anomaly, which perhaps
is a whole separate episode on its own. It's this
place where the Van Allen Belts dip a little bit
closer to Earth than the rest of the belts, So
you have this radiation at x miles above the Earth
(10:16):
that's much higher than it should be and is in
any other part of the Earth and can interfere with
high altitude orbital craft as well as spacecraft. Right. Yeah.
Even astronauts have reported specifically those above on the Space
Shuttle when they would orbit, that they would get the
shooting stars in their eyes when they would go near
(10:38):
that area. So then later on down the road they
had to improve the radiation shielding for any other vessels,
specifically the International Space Station post. They don't know. The
Van Allen Belts are like, it's like a charged area
in the atmosphere, the ring, Yeah, it's it's things. These
are the major reason that people one of the major
(10:59):
reasons that people believe we never went to the Moon
because you couldn't get through that in theory, right right, yeah,
And these can they fluctuate, right, but this specific area
has a higher rate. So Van Allen beltsa wax wayne
and depending on solar energy, and sometimes they can damage satellites.
(11:24):
And I think you are correct. We do have a
South Atlantic anomaly episode in our future. Today, most oceanographers
or naval experts and scholars and related disciplines are going
to dismiss the vast majority of claims made by Ivan
Sanderson and his supporters, and they're gonna say that's malarkey,
(11:44):
don't believe it. Via vortices, or a whole nother other
realm of the made up. And you know, we see this,
we see similar things happen with theories about lay lines
or something where they say people are just drawing lines
random and ascribing meaning to them. But what exactly is
(12:05):
supposed to be going on here? So in his book
which was published in nineteen eighty nine called The Dragon's Triangle,
this author of Berlitz said that Japan lost five military
vessels in the area that we're talking about between nineteen
fifty two and nineteen fifty four, and that accounts for
(12:25):
a loss of somewhere in the neighborhood of seven hundred sailors.
Another author by the name of Dan Cohen wrote a
book in nineteen seventy four called Curses, Hexes and Spells,
in which he reported that legends of the Danger of
the Devil, c Devil's Triangle, what have you, are centuries
(12:46):
old as far as Japanese lore goes. So it's most
famous modern casualty was the number five Kyo Maru, which
was a scientific research vessel that disappeared with the loss
of everyone on board on September twenty fourth, nineteen fifty three,
and that's a date that's wrongly reported often then yeah, yeah, yeah,
(13:11):
sometimes nineteen fifty two, nineteen fifty eight, but the actual
date is in nineteen fifty three. And by any any
single person's measurement, it is it is an enormous tragedy
to lose people. Let see, but let's let's look at
some of these other claims. There's stories and allegations. That's
(13:31):
number five, Kyo Maru. That's the most well known modern
one according to other proponents of the idea. As Noel
mentioned just a second ago, the story dates back for centuries.
So you'll hear tales of fleets from China and Kublai
Khan going missing in the area. The specific legend that
(13:53):
we're digging around in is one that says in the
twelve hundreds, Kubla Khan tried several times to invade Japan,
crossing the Devil's Triangle. In this process, according to his story,
he lost his vessels and he lost forty thousand men,
especially at the time. Yes, it is um and we mentioned,
(14:17):
you know, we we mentioned that they've wrongly reported the
date of that modern tragedies nineteen fifty two or nineteen
fifty eight, which lets us know that things slip a
little um with the Cayu Maru. Oftentimes, the authors who
say that this is an example of somebody being lost
in Japan's Bermuda Triangle, they often make increasing the unsubstantiated claims,
(14:42):
and they say that everything from a visiting UFO to
some sort of lost style electromagnetic Fluke response, I didn't
say what happened. I knew you were going to say
that I didn't. Oh man, there's an entire wiki dedicated
to lost. That's true. I'm not Yeah, I'm not standing
(15:05):
down on that one. The other examples that we hear
cited are often going to be portrayed as military vessels
or large commercial vessels disappearing in calm weather with no
clear explanation. That's the thing where it gets weird for
me is like, you know, you've got these giant vessels
(15:25):
where there's meticulous bookkeeping. They know exactly who's on board,
what's on board, and there is you know, protocol of
keeping in touch with home base. That's the stuff that
really makes me kind of like think, huh, is this
a thing? You know? Yeah, I absolutely absolutely agree. That's
the The ocean is vast and deep. Right, but we
(15:47):
also have technology even the fifties that would allow people
to be in if not continual, incredibly frequent communication with
someone else, you know what I mean, radio existed. You know.
There's one thing. One of the pieces of research that
we looked at in this I think we should just
mentioned at this point was Skept Away, who did an
(16:09):
episode on this and mentions that a lot of the
times the large military vessels from way back in the
day that were reported being missing, we're actually fishing vessels.
Just just point that out right, I'm glad you mentioned that. Well,
we'll see that coming up again later on in the show.
(16:30):
For now, we've I think we've painted some of the
lore and some of the legends and the claims here.
Let's take a look at the evidence evidence after a
word from our sponsor. Unfortunately, evidence of this Devil's triangle
(16:54):
or see in action is extremely hard to come by, right, sure, sure,
of course, there are historical records of fishing boats going missing, sinking,
or wrecking throughout regional history, throughout global history, from the
ancient past to the modern day. However, in this instance,
there are no cases of scholars at the time citing
(17:15):
a Dragon's triangle or attributing widespread paranormal causes to these tragedies.
It was enough for most of human history to just
acknowledge that, you know, the ocean is a very dangerous
and deadly place, and people are not built for it.
To be fair, there were also numerous spiritual explanations for
the tragedy, but I think we can agree that's a
(17:37):
very different thing. Maybe it's more of a belief system,
maybe even on some level coping mechanism. But we would
be remiss if we did not talk about the Kubla
Khan adventure. Because first things first, there really was an
attempted invasion of Japan by the Mongol forces in the
twelve hundreds. Not only was there one, there was more
(17:58):
than one. I guess anything that isn't one is more
than one. Cresson zero. Somebody saved me here, right. So
in twelve to seventy four, the Yuon Fleet set out
with an estimated fifteen thousand Mongol and Chinese soldiers and
eight thousand Korean soldiers in three hundred large vessels, and
(18:18):
they also had four hundred to five hundred smaller craft,
although figures vary widely as to healthen do with these
things depending on the source. Man, that is a massive fleet.
It's a pretty pretty mega fleet. So they initially made
significant progress into the area, but then around nightfall, a
typhoon caused the Mongol ship captains to suggest the land
(18:42):
force re embark in order to avoid the risk of
being shipwrecked marooned on Japanese soil, which would be bad times. Right,
So they were saying, Okay, the weather is clearly sourines,
we need to hop on the boats here and get
back for we are stuck. And who knows what would
have happened, you know, maybe other supporting Japanese forces could
(19:05):
have come to the area. Can we just set the
scene here bends a little bit, or if you would
maybe help. What's what's at stake here? What is the
kind of like the surrounding reason before this of this event? Well,
if we were painting with broad brush strokes, the typical say,
the typical line would be that the Mongol empire depended
(19:30):
upon expansion, so sort of like unrestricted capitalism, it didn't
it couldn't exist without things to consume, you know what
I mean. And also the Mongol forces of the time
were not well known seafaring fighters. They were. They were
(19:54):
you know, they didn't have an awesome navy. They were
much more well known for their ability wage one horses,
for their specialized bows, which were some real, real fascinating stuff.
We're talking about explosives, we're talking about rockets. But can
I just pause the conversation here for one second, everybody
(20:15):
take one step back. As we're recording this, we're in
the aftermath of Harvey here in the United States, and
then Hurricane Irma is on its way, possibly to striking Florida,
definitely going to hit the Caribbean islands, and it's even
coming through Atlanta. Yeah, imagine in the twelve hundreds, you're,
you know, you were experts at the sea, if you're
you know, the captain of a naval ship back then,
(20:37):
especially in a military capacity. Still, you don't have Doppler
radar from across, you know, the other side of the
ocean to see as a typhoon is forming and like
to really get an understanding of where it's headed or
what's going on. That's that's an intense situation because you know,
it has to be pretty close just to even see it.
(20:58):
You know, I would I completely agree I also would
be quick not to underestimate the knowledgies folks have, because
they're probably reading the migratory patterns of birds. They're probably
noticing little things that would pass most of us completely by,
you know, but it's act. But still it's not. But
(21:21):
still you make a great point. It's not comparable to
having Doppler radar or something. By daybreak, only of almost
all the ships had set out to sail back to
mainland China, and those that had This is where the
Devil's dragons triangle stuff comes in, because those that had
(21:41):
were destroyed by the storm. We're talking about around two
hundred Mongol ships lost at sea. The small Japanese boats
were much more maneuverable than the Mongol ships, and so
the remaining ships were on the Mongols I were boarded
(22:02):
by the Japanese and cripple took over. Very un goood,
double plus bad day for everybody, or double unplus. I mean,
I'm not caught up in my nineteen eighty four. The
Mongols would attempt another invasion just a few years later
in twelve eighty one. So that is as we can see,
(22:24):
that is like the root of the cryptic references you'll
hear in these vile vortices or Dragon's Triangle books about
the Great CON's hoards were lost in the Devil's Sea well,
and as as intense and horrifying as being caught in
(22:45):
a typhoon. I'm assuming is I have never experienced it,
but I'm assuming it's intense. Especially then it would have
been considered not such a strange thing, right, I mean, yeah,
when people are aware of weather patterns and the force
of nature at that time, and you attribute it to,
you know, whatever you attribute it to, but generally it's
(23:07):
kind of mundane. Was there may be a sense that,
like the Bermuda Triangle, in some of these areas of
you know, disturbance, shall we say, are maybe more prone
to extreme weather conditions, and that's sort of what gives
them this reputation because there's just you know, that far
out to see you're going to get bigger storms than
(23:30):
you are closer to the mainland. I don't know, that's
a great question. One of the things that we run
into a lot here in the modern day is that
authors and critics, opponents and proponents of different ideas will
accuse each other of misleading the audience. So Charles Berlitz
gets accused of sort of editorializing this thing, this instance
(23:54):
of a failed invasion, and taking a as Matt said,
completely explicable sort of series of events and reframing it
as something in a poorly written reality TV show. And
you know, that's the thing about reality television that just
to go a little bit off air here. I was
(24:15):
never the biggest fan, but I had no idea how
much of that stuff is scripted? And carefully will they
call it produce? Which is funny though, because the like
industry term for that stuff is unscripted. Yeah, exactly right,
And I think, yeah, I think off air. The three
of us at least of all run into what that
(24:37):
looks like a little bit behind the curtain, you know.
And I guarantee you if you if you watch reality television,
I wish you the best and I hope you have
a good time with it. But do be aware that,
I'm sure most people know that every time the camera
is not directly on somebody who is making a big
deal out of an incredibly insignificant problem, there is a
(24:59):
producer or an assistant producer who's sort of grooming them
and coaxing them. Man in some cases trying to get
them drunk. And this is sort of like that, only
the individuals being described didn't really have a say in
it at all. It's just kind of one guy sort
of painting with a broad brush, I guess, and deciding
with the narrative. Actually, and I mean we see that
(25:21):
all the time with history. I mean they say history
is written by the by the victors, and this is
a little bit different than that. But I will never
forget the end of the Ozzy Osbourne reality TV show
where they show you the behind the scenes of the
scripted parts. Oh really, yeah, I never said ruin it
blew my mind, blew my mind. Ozzy Osbourne can read
(25:43):
it well. I said it was a long time ago.
When you imagine that was I guess high school for me.
I can't even remember exactly when it was, but you know,
only mackerel. I don't remember where this came from, and
I will try to find it and put it on
our social media. I read somewhere that there was a
study being conducted, a genetic study being conducted on Ozzy Osbourne.
(26:08):
I don't know if this was a hoax, because they
were trying to figure out how he could have done
so many drugs and still you know, not had debilitating
disease and still be relatively all there. I certainly hope
they included Keith Richards in that study, right, Yeah, he
should be in there too. We've got to well, let's see,
let's give the show a little bit and see if
(26:29):
we can. We can dig that up as we proceed.
But yes, also, to be fair to mister Burlet's we
have not spoken with him directly, and to be even
to be even more fair, this typhoon, this historic typhoon,
(26:53):
did occur at an abnormal time. The invasion took place
in November, but the typical typhoon season runs from May
to October. We've already started talking about some of the
problems with this story and this legend. In nineteen ninety five,
an American author named Larry Cush published The Bermuda Triangle
(27:17):
Mystery Solved Who I Know. Along the way, he debunked
or for many people, he debunked Burlitz's claims about the
Bermuda Triangle and the Dragon's Triangle. He says that the
military vessels that were mentioned that as we allude to earlier,
were actually just fishing vessels. Now Why does that matter, Well,
(27:41):
it matters because fishing vessels are easily lost, and they're
extremely common, right, and they're probably a little bit smaller,
and they're yeah, they're going to be in many cases,
they're gonna be much much smaller, and for those to
get lost is an unfortunate reality of life at sea,
(28:02):
especially if we're considering also that many of the fishing
military vessels have the ability for their story to be known.
They probably have better communications systems, you know, might not
be the case with a lot of smaller fishing vessels,
you know, anywhere from mom and pop operations to like
local businesses or local regional businesses. But there's more, yes, yes,
(28:28):
as Billy Mays was wont to say, there is indeed more.
Some of those crashes listed by Charles Burletts sank outside
the area that's defined as the Dragons triangle. Now, is
that a problem with where they sank or you know,
the boundaries of the Dragons triangle. Maybe it's bigger than
we think, Maybe it is, Maybe it is. Kush also
(28:50):
wrote that the Japanese vessel carried not a hundred personnel,
as burlets a claim, but only thirty one, and that
an undersea volcane, know is what destroyed it. M Now
that's peculiar on its in its own right in my mind. Yeah,
and your ce volcano has sound weird. And then okay,
another another problem with this idea. If the legend really
(29:12):
does go back for centuries and centuries, then why isn't
there more scratch that, any information about it in the
historical record from any of the countries lining the place
where this this triangle is supposed to exist. And then
enters the skeptoids. Brian Dunning he did, or supposedly did
(29:37):
a large search for any type of newspaper, magazine, articles, books,
really anything written down specifically about the dragons see Triangle,
Devil's Triangle, all that stuff, and he came up empty
handed until twenty years after the loss of the Cayumaru.
Apparently the story then just be came, It was breathed
(30:02):
into existence. So yeah, apparently this legend of things going
back for centuries was fairly recent invention, at least according
to Brian Dunning and the research she conducted. The first
written records of the trying will only show up in
the nineteen seventies, and then when they blew up in
the fringe scene. The literature became flooded with accounts of
(30:23):
this new mysterious region, with tales that had been feared
for centuries. Nearly all published references again, Dunning sites this
as well do as well as a couple of others.
Nearly all published references are from the early seventies, and
they're immediately upon the heels of Ivan Sanderson's articles from
nineteen seventy one nineteen seventy two, and all of that
(30:46):
stuff led Dunning to conclude that quote, in short, there
is no devil cy and there never was outside the
imagination of Ivan Sanderson and the authors who wrote about
his vile vortices. But it sounds so great. Vile vortices.
They're just really like disgusting. Yes, yeah, they don't tip,
(31:10):
they squeeze toothpaste from the middle. They picked their noses
forgot to shower for about a month. So uh. Personally,
I think the phrase vild vortices sounds um like a
super villain weapon, like something Cobra Commander would use. Yeah,
or a team. It's like a team of somebody really
(31:34):
really dastardly. It's just a it's like a biker gang
that got whole a hold of a thesaurus but didn't
read the whole entry. What is a team rocket from
from Pokemon? So we we do, you know, we do
hate to look. We all want to believe in these
(31:55):
amazing extraordinary things. And the long and short of it
is in the research that we found, in primary historical
sources and in common parlance in the area, this is
largely considered a myth, and it's not treated with near
(32:15):
as much prominence as several other local or regional extraordinary
events or beliefs. This is in many ways kind of
a Western thing, strangely, right, Yeah, it's a It's a
thing that people in the coast of China and in
the coast of Japan don't really think about or give
(32:37):
near as much credence to feel like a tale of
the other. Yeah, yeah, and haven't for certainly haven't been
worrying about it for centuries. Most people are you know,
families or friends on the coast just hoping they're loved
ones make it back. Before you know, a storm hits
(32:58):
or disaster occur, which are real dangers. But we're not
ending the tail there yet. We do have some explanations
a peak if you will, behind the curtain. After a
word from our sponsors, welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. As
(33:23):
we promised before the break, we have some possible explanations
for some of these bizarre occurrences in the Devil's Sea. Um.
Starting off, there's pretty much no way around it. But
U boats and ships and vessels you know what, float uh?
They really have disappeared in this area of the Pacific,
(33:46):
you know quite a bit in fact um that much
is true. But what's the deal with the triangle or
with all of the triangles? You know what? Why y
Rooney there for a second like it? What's the deal
is that? Any seld seinfeld E Rooney? Too interesting? But really,
(34:08):
really really really yes, what's going on the triangle? Why
aren't there more Devil's squares or Devil's octagons? Obviously? You
know you gotta have the angs and angles, Devil's pentagram.
Come on, that's what I'm saying, you know you Devil's
not a square, Devil's not a circle, all right. The
devil is clearly a triangle or a series of triangles.
(34:30):
It shaped like a goat's head. Okay, literally edgy, okay,
boys too too much by that's fine? Um, But yeah,
like that's true. But what's what why? So you know,
we there there is research that explores some of these
environmental changes UM as the cause of such anomalies as
said triangle triangles. Um. One of these explanations is that
(34:55):
the vast field of methane hydrate that exist at the
bottom of the ocean in that area could potentially have
something to do with these disturbances that we talked about
that originally of some people attributed to an electromagnetic lost
kind of situation. Yeah, these are the existence of these
(35:20):
So yeah, this is this is very unfair. Nature's brutal
and unfair. This is one example nature doesn't care about you. No,
not at all. There are these deposits of methane hydrates
gas methane class rates, and when they reach a certain
(35:43):
temperature they will quote unquote explode. That temperature just so
you know, is not very insane. It's sixty four degrees.
Thankfully there are you know the bottom of the ocean.
M Yeah, there are these ice like deposits that break
off from the bottom and they can rise, forming bubbles
on the surface of the water. And again this is
(36:06):
just like this is the scary part. This theoretical, Uh,
these gas eruptions could interrupt buoyancy. What this means is
they could easily sink a ship, leaving no trace of debris.
You would just be sailing along and then like it
would suck you down. Essentially, you almost you lose buoyancy,
(36:26):
so you would just you're the ship would just go.
When I picture your Bermuda triangle, that's kind of what
I've always pictured is something like that. So that's pretty wild.
See in my head, it's it's a vortex essentially. So
you're saying it literally just disrupts the ability of your
(36:46):
vessel to float. It would be like a bunch of
air bubbles down below your ship that you're going over
and you just kind of and it's not exactly that.
I picture like the water just opening up in like
a hole and then you just fall down. And I
always pictured, you know, I remember so many films or older,
(37:10):
older things like episodes of the Twilight Zone, where there
would be this gray, all enveloping fall rolling in and
then you know, the captain or the pilot of a plane,
for instance, they do the thing where they tap their
their yeah, their compass and stuff and the altimeter and
everything's going crazy and next thing you know, it opens
(37:31):
up in there in a weird unknown land. But then
they crash or they're like on top of the mountain
or something. Yeah, I'm really I gotta I gotta harp
on this. So the water is affected in such a
way that it will not support the weight of the ship.
So here's here's the problem. No one has ever seen
(37:54):
an actual eruption like this, and you wouldn't. No one
would be left to tell the tale. No one knows
how large the bubbles coming off the methane deposit would be.
But in theory give it. Yeah, but the scientists who
pump your break, we're getting right. But the jazz. But
there are scientists who have conducted research on this, and
they found that they made a model of a single
(38:17):
large bubble coming up under a ship, and they trapp
trapped water between vertical glass plates. They launched gas bubbles
from the bottom right, and they used a video camera
to record what happened to this whole they have floating
on the surface. If the thing is exactly above the bubble,
then it's safe. But if it's far enough way it safe.
(38:39):
It's where it's toward the edge that it just sinks
in so it doesn't explode. The bubble sort of swallows it,
for lack of a better word, which to me is
more frightening than an explosion. No, you're helping me out
real big with my mental image of this phenomenon. It's
freaking me out. This is this the best advertisement for
(39:02):
cruise ever? I don't really, I don't want to be
that far out in the man. You know, we just
did the Titanic. I mean, like, come on, we really
are scaring people away from you know, being on the
ocean right now. Well, no reason to stop yet because
there's a different explanation, right, Should we get into Great
White sharks instead? No? Because yeah, what's up with sars?
(39:24):
Save that for another day. I'm just saying, like, another
reason why I don't like to swim in the ocean.
But okay, let's keep going. Oh okay. Well, another reason
that ships could disappear more frequently in this area would
be that small islands in this triangle in the Dragons
triangle frequently disappear in New islands frequently up here due
(39:48):
to volcanoes and seismic activity. We cannot forget, ladies and
gentlemen about the Ring of Fire. The Ring of Fire
is this huge twenty five thousand mile shoe shaped area
in the basin of the Pacific Ocean down there at
the bottom, including in the area that we consider to
be the Devil's Seas. It's home to just a ton
(40:11):
of earthquakes and volcanic activity down there. It's associated with
almost a continuous creation of trenches, oceanic trenches, of volcanic arcs,
volcanic belts, plate movements, and it has over four hundred
and fifty volcanoes. That's over seventy five percent of the
world's active and dormant volcanoes exist in this Ring of
(40:34):
fire down at the bottom of the ocean. So is
it possible that a volcanic eruption on the ocean floor
could reach a ship? Well, yeah, you're just talking about
the release of gases again as the you know, the
immense heat that's being generated right below where the water
is and then coming up and meeting with that water,
(40:56):
creating steam that has to get pushed up. Again, you're
talking about following ships potentially. I know that, Um, this
is this kind of ridiculous. Twenty fifteen, there was an
active underwater volcano that was that came to life off
of Granada and you guys will really enjoy the name.
(41:18):
Are you ready? It was called the Kick Him Jenny Volcano. Yeah,
kick him Jenny? Yeah, yeah, like that like three words.
If it's New Zealand, uh, kick him, kick him Jimmy
Jimmy or Jenny Jeni. Yeah, oh boy, everybody and everybody
(41:39):
in New Zealand. We apologize. We've been practicing this accent.
I don't think we have any New Zealand listeners left
at this point. Every's gone no right in and let
us know. Actually, let us know about keyweek conspiracies too.
We'd love to hear those. Um. So, the problem with
this is I'm bringing this up because this is a
good it is a good specific example of the problems here,
(42:05):
because not only is a underwater volcano powerful enough, as
as Matt said, to affect the surface, but it could
even shoot hot rocks into the air. These can be massive.
In the case of Kickum Jenny, scientists set up an
(42:26):
exclusion zone for ships around the volcano. Recreational ships had
to stay three miles away from it, and I think
commercial ships had to stay a mile or two away. Yeah,
just in case so it is completely possible that some
of these ships, maybe even the Maru that we mentioned
earlier number five, it is possible that these ships were
(42:48):
instead the victims of volcanoes. Wow. That's terrifying for me,
much more terrifying than a mysterious devil's area. Yeah, what
about mysterious gas bubbles? That's that's that's the one that
gives me pause. Yeah, I feel like a fiery death
at c is um more understandable than just all this
(43:11):
sudden saying, oh, we're on the water, now we're in it.
Why can't I breathe? Yeah? Yeah, that's the thing though,
I mean, like a fiery death at sea, it seems
like it would leave behind more flotsam and jetsam and whatnot.
Like the whole you know, kicker of these of these
places usually tends to be gone without a trace, right,
that's sort of like the the calling cards. Yeah, and
(43:36):
then if you do find them, it's, you know, fifty
two hundreds of years later at the bottom of the sea. Weird.
And we'd like to know what We'd like to know
what your experiences are, your maritime experiences, and most importantly,
what your take is on these ideas. Of the Bermuda triangle,
(43:56):
the Dragons triangle. Also, you know, I want to ask people, well,
which idea about this vile vortices thing in general, because
we would love to hear about a source that comes
from before the nineteen fifties. Let's say, you know, I
(44:16):
do you live near one right? Could you go check
it out? Or have you had any experiences there? It's
how we find out if we have any friends in
the Eastern Islands. If so, we may be coming to
your house to crash. Will be there in two weeks?
And is it? Will it take us two weeks? Well,
it's just there's a lot of planning that goes into
(44:37):
that's probably true. Yeah, so unfortunately, Yeah, a lot of
the stuff about this seems to have sprung up after
the fact, with a little supporting evidence in the preceding literature. However,
we do know that there is absolutely nothing fictitious about
losing ships at sea. According to a maritime assurer named Leon's,
(45:00):
losses at sea continue in the modern day. Yeah, I mean,
this is still clearly happening. We've got stats from two
thousand and seven to twenty sixteen indicating that the area
comprising South China Indonesia and the Philippines counted two hundred
and forty nine lost ships, while the area north of that,
(45:23):
think Japan the Korean Peninsula in the like, counted one
hundred and thirty three lost vessels. And these numbers are
actually only decline thankfully. Yeah, the maritime industry on the
whole has seen the total number of losses decrease during
(45:43):
twenty sixteen to eighty five, and then the number of
incidents or casualties also is on a year over year downturn.
And according to another report from Alians, one of the
big questions would be how many ships disappeared without a
(46:04):
trace right overall from two thousand and twenty thirteen, there
were only seven that were considered what they call missing
slash overdue. So you can still be missing for two
years and be overdue. Wow, missing for two years at sea.
(46:25):
It's not a fate I want to experience. And so
concludes our show. You know what we haven't done in
a little while? Is it a jot Gona? Our first
shout out goes to Nick says high gang, love your show.
In the effervescent episode three hundred, you mentioned blood donations.
(46:47):
I think it was a ninety nine Pie podcast or
maybe Radio Lab where I first heard that donated blood
is a big business and that hospitals seek out more
blood than they need to sell it to other hospitals.
It might even have been stuff to blow your mind
to come to think of it. Well, you need to
get your podcast straight, Nick, come on. In the process.
In the process, lots of plasma gets thrown away. Apparently
(47:11):
here are a couple of links that go that take
us down this rabbit hole. So we send us some
great stuff from WPTV and then there's a nice little
reddit today I learned section here. So we're going to
dive into this, Nick, and we'll report back with what
we find. Literal blood money, What about plasma money? The
(47:33):
same ring to it, doesn't It's a wave of the
future though, right, plasma money, that's where all the money is.
Let's get in early. Our next shout out comes from Nicole. Hi, Guys,
what happened to the video podcast in the iTunes store?
I haven't received any new updates in quite some time?
Are the podcast audio only now? Thanks Nicole. We mentioned
the top of the show we had some changes in
(47:55):
the works in terms of some investment in our company
and the podcast business. I guess he could say, spinning
off from the how stuff works in general. With that
has come kind of an emphasis on the podcasts, and
that means a less video man and you know, Matt
and beyond the iTunes store or Apple podcast video store.
(48:19):
We have put a pause on our video production for
the stuff they don't want you to know, video series,
specifically on our YouTube channel and anywhere else that you've
been watching our show, maybe on Amazon, and we're just
putting a pause on that. Like Noel said, to focus
on this show, this thing that people who make more
(48:40):
money than us and make decisions above us have faith in.
So we're gonna keep going with it. But there may
be like opportunities online to supplement some of the stuff
we do here with some video stuff or so full
and off, so we'll see. But you know, a lot
of exciting new stuff coming down the pike, but we're
not fully aware of all of it yet. Thanks so
much for writing in Nicole. We have one more shout
(49:03):
out for today, but it's a it's a bit of
a doozy, so get comfortable in your seat or scoot
to the edge of it, you know, wherever you prefer
to encounter doozy messages. Hey guys, says Laura B. I
just listened to your podcast about America's Zone of Death,
and I'm actually a former student of Professor cult. I
attached the photo of his class syllabus to prove it.
(49:23):
I really appreciate you guys giving him credit for this
topic because it's been showing up a lot on social
media without him being credited at all. That's real. That's
a real pill, Laura. I find that personally offensive. That
was me, Ben, that wasn't Laura. Laura continues, You guys
should give professor call to Google because he has also
written on a wide variety of other super interesting little
(49:46):
discuss topics and I'm sure he'd be more than happy
to talk with you guys. Keep up the good work,
Laura nice. Thank you so much for writing in Laura.
And here's the bonus. Here's the du you part. Professor
Kay did write back to us. He wrote back to
us yesterday, I think, and his email was very very kind,
(50:12):
to the point where I was thinking, Man, I wish
you were my professor. He will just read some some
brief highlights here. What they really liked was he said
a few points I heard and enjoyed your podcast about
my Yellowstone theory, I wanted to reach out offer my
enthusiastic participation with whatever else you want to do with
(50:33):
the subject, and also on the pardon power. As you mentioned,
a few points that came to mind as I listened. One,
you called me doctor cult, but like so many law professors,
I'm not a PhD. Also, I pronounced cults like halt
or as salt, not kilt. No worries, though I've been
called far worse. I think this guy's it creates. It's
a humor too. In case you get me feedback on
(50:55):
the Yellowstone theory, of very common response is that the
state of Idaho would just prosecute you, and that's true
of most national parks. If the Feds couldn't prosecute you,
the state would be able to step in. But in
a few of them, like Yellowstone, the FEDS have exclusive jurisdictions,
so that's no go. Three, It's worth mentioning that if
you tried to use the loophole, you would still be
subject to get ensued civil liability and prosecuted for misdemeanors
(51:18):
for which you have no right to a jury trial.
You also would not be able to use the loophole
if you did any part of the crime, like forming
your intent or conspiring outside the zone. Oh man, you
know what that means. We're already guilty. Our moonshine operation
already went elbows up. Perhaps most importantly, if you're thinking
a point something, there's probably someone else there with the
(51:40):
same idea, and he's bigger than you. All of this
eliminates much of the loophole's usefulness to would be criminals.
I still think the loophole is worth fixing, though, even
with all the reasons why it's limited and why it
might not work, there really is no good reason not
to fix it and just color inside the lines. On pardons.
(52:01):
Number one, you mentioned pardons declaring you guilty. I wrote
a short piece and attempt to disabuse people of that notion,
And so he has a piece in the Wall Street
Journal that he refers as to pardons aren't only for
the guilty. And two he said self pardoning was the
subject of my first legal article in nineteen ninety six
and a chapter of my book in twenty twelve. If
(52:22):
you're ever interested in doing anything on pardons, I'd love
to help and he also recommends chapter from a book
called Constitutional Cliffhangers, a legal guy for presidents and their enemies,
And it's on the loophole in the twenty second Amendment
that could allow a two term president to stay in power. Oh,
I want to do both of those. You want to
(52:42):
both be president's stay of power? Yeah, that specifically, as
well as self pardoning and partnering in general. I just
want to learn more about that, and I think people
afterre would want to as well. Yeah, let us know
if you'd like to learn more about legal loopholes. And
we are going to be following up with our new
(53:03):
favorite law professor. And for now, this concludes our osh
but our show, and that's the end of this classic episode.
If you have any thoughts or questions about this episode,
you can get into contact with us in a number
of different ways. One of the best is to give
us a call. Our number is one eight three three
(53:25):
stdwy TK. If you don't want to do that, you
can send us a good old fashioned email. We are
conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff they Don't Want You
to Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Well, fellow conspiracy realist. If you've been with us for
a while now, or if you're tuning into the show
for the first time ever, we're pretty confident you've heard
of the Bermuda Triangle, right, But have you heard of
the counterpart in the Pacific Ocean. That's what we talked
about in our classic episode this week, the so called
(00:21):
Dragons Triangle. Do you guys remember this one? Most definitely
the same kind of things that happened in the Bermuda Triangle,
but just in a different part of the world. Come on,
what could you not like about this? Let's dive in
from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
(00:45):
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello,
welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my
name is Noel. They call me Ben. You are you?
(01:06):
And that makes this stuff they don't want you to know.
We are joined by our super producer Alex Williams in
on the ones and twos today in the booth. Are
there more than one? Yeah, we have a we have
a We've expanded two and threes by my account, that's
fair oh, you meant more than one whatever stereo channels,
It's true. There you go. That's the ones in the
(01:27):
twos except our m P three's are mono. So we're
working on changing there. Yeah, we're working on all sorts
of things today. And if we don't take a if
we don't take an ill fated trip, all of those
things would come true. Just a bit of a bureaucratic
notation here. Before we begin today's episode, you're going to
(01:47):
see some some big changes coming up with the stuff
they'll want you to know. Should we give them the
full scoop I don't know, I don't know two inside baseball,
or should we do like a dippin dot kind of thing.
We could just say we've been hashtag blessed with funding
from on high, which could mean more and more shows expansions.
(02:11):
There's a tech Yeah, there's a tech Crunch article you
can find if you wish to learn all about it.
M Yeah, and we are you know, we have our
parent company How Stuff Works. We are now officially our
own thing with how Stuff Works. So now if now,
if Matt Nolan I say this goes all the way
(02:34):
to the top. We're talking about the guy who works
next next to us. Okay, in our previous episode, well,
the episode we previously recorded, we mentioned some maritime adventures, right,
and Noel, you and I have not been on cruises,
however our compatriot has. Yes, do we want to rehash
(02:58):
the cruises again? Boys? Don't have to? You were you?
Weren't You didn't hate it, right, I didn't hate it?
And uh, it was a thing. It was a thing
that happened, yes, and it was a creepy and cruise right,
which brought us to brought you perhaps to something that
many people have heard of, the Bermuda Triangle. Yes, I
(03:22):
was near it, but not in it. And yet here
you sit, right, I made it through you guys reporting back.
It was it was a little weird, but it was cool.
And that is the as you know that as the
alleged side of numerous plane crashes, boat sinkings, and disappearances. Yeah, yeah,
(03:44):
But today we're going to examine the alleged eastern version
of this, the so called Devil's Triangle. According to legends,
there have been tens of thousands of people who've tried
to cross this stretch of ocean, only to perish or
disappear in the attempt in the modern era, so it
(04:05):
goes to the story. Several Japanese research and military vessels
have also gone missing in this triangle, leading to a
number of dead and disappeared estimated to be over seven
hundred people. Pretty pretty hefty stuff. We'll get those claims
in a bit. First, let's let's look at the facts.
What are we talking about when we say Devil's Triangle. Well,
(04:28):
it's not only known at the Devil's Triangle. It's also
called the Devil's c the Dragon's Triangle, and the Taiwan Triangle,
And just as with the Bermuda Triangle, it's even sometimes
called the Devil's triangle Don Don doung. Yeah, so it
gets weird when we ask each other, you know, well,
(04:49):
where is this? What was devil c Dragon's Triangle, Taiwan triangle,
because there's no official world map that plots this. Yeah,
it's written all over the place online where it's supposed
to run from. You know, it's a triangle, so in
theory it should have some pretty defined areas in which
(05:11):
it is affecting the world around it. Usually it's said
to run from Taiwan up to the volcanic island of
miyake Jima that's just south of Tokyo, and then to
about Iwajima or somewhere in that vicinity pretty close. Both
of those locations are along something called the Ezu Mooning
(05:31):
Volcanic Arc. That's a line of underwater volcanoes and islands
that stretch, well, they're part of a larger system that
stretches twenty five hundred kilometers all the way from Japan
to Guam. And some people, like the author Charles Berlitz,
say that the Devil's Sea, which I think is my
(05:52):
favorite name so far, what do you think I think
Devil's c is quite I like ascribing a shape to it,
implying that it's sort of a zone. See, yeah, it's
pretty is like the whole sea, right, Yeah, it's a
sea that exists in itself within park the ocean. Yeah,
I don't know. That's a good point. We didn't need
to have parameters. Well, according to this author, Charles Burlet's,
(06:13):
the Devil's Triangle is every bit as dangerous and mysterious
as the Bermuda Triangle. And we can imagine right now
how the people who are very dismissive of the Bermuda
Triangle might find this hilarious. Somebody is actually in their
car right now going that is true, oh me, oh my,
(06:38):
for sure. But then there are other people in the
audiences who, as soon as they hear Devil's triangle, they
think of the vile vortices, which is something that has
been traded around amongst the mysteriously minded for quite a while.
Vile vortices. Okay, what's a vile vortices? Oh wait, that's
(06:59):
the plural, m What are vile vortices? Man? Well, a
vile vortex is a concept, really, it's the idea that
there's perhaps something strange going on with either the Earth's
electromagnetic system. It's the way it functions. Maybe it's a
little stronger in this place than anywhere else, and odd
(07:22):
things tend to happen with metal objects and living beings. Okay,
all right. So the idea then is that these are
distributed across the planet. Yes, precisely, there are. There is
a map of sorts that you can find and it
(07:42):
shows you where there's one at the north pole and
there's one at the South pole, and then the rest
of them are kind of polka dotted in a pattern,
albeit across the Earth and we can trace this idea
specifically to the author Ivan T. Sanderson, and he is
the sort of a lot of these claims. When he
first proposed this concept, other authors took it up and
(08:06):
they attributed different causes as the source of the alleged disruption. Right, So,
like you said, Matt, electromagnetic stuff gateway to hell, paranormal
things portal to another dimension maybe extra dimensional, yeah, extra
dimensional portals. And we have a rundown of the of
(08:29):
the vortices that you mentioned, Matt, that are distributed across
the planet. Ladies and gentlemen, would you like to know
where they are? Okay, let's start at the North and
South pole, if that's okay, just because that's kind of obvious.
If you're talking about electromagnetic strangeness, you're going to have
perhaps some things going on at the North and South pole.
(08:49):
Then you move on to the Bermuda triangle that's the
you know, the granddaddy of these vortices. Then you got
the Algerian megaliths. This is just south of tim book too,
and there you can find this stuff online if you
want to learn more about these other specific vorticase and
perhaps you know, we can pick some of these up later.
(09:11):
The Indus Valley over in Pakistan. There's oh, there's a
volcano just east of Hawaii. That's a pretty interesting place.
We got the Devil c the one we're talking about today,
the Triangle, whatever you want to call it. There's a
oh well, I'm gonna save this one for last, the
(09:31):
Wharton Basin, and you can you can find a link
to that on Wikipedia and check that out. The Eastern
Island megalist the statues, the just east of Rio de Janeiro.
There's a section an area over there that's said to
be part of this. The Loyalty Islands, which are I
believe between just north of the intersection, or I guess
(09:54):
the area between New Zealand and Australia. Okay, then my
favorite one by are the South Atlantic Anomaly, which perhaps
is a whole separate episode on its own. It's this
place where the Van Allen Belts dip a little bit
closer to Earth than the rest of the belts, So
you have this radiation at x miles above the Earth
(10:16):
that's much higher than it should be and is in
any other part of the Earth and can interfere with
high altitude orbital craft as well as spacecraft. Right. Yeah.
Even astronauts have reported specifically those above on the Space
Shuttle when they would orbit, that they would get the
shooting stars in their eyes when they would go near
(10:38):
that area. So then later on down the road they
had to improve the radiation shielding for any other vessels,
specifically the International Space Station post. They don't know. The
Van Allen Belts are like, it's like a charged area
in the atmosphere, the ring, Yeah, it's it's things. These
are the major reason that people one of the major
(10:59):
reasons that people believe we never went to the Moon
because you couldn't get through that in theory, right right, yeah,
And these can they fluctuate, right, but this specific area
has a higher rate. So Van Allen beltsa wax wayne
and depending on solar energy, and sometimes they can damage satellites.
(11:24):
And I think you are correct. We do have a
South Atlantic anomaly episode in our future. Today, most oceanographers
or naval experts and scholars and related disciplines are going
to dismiss the vast majority of claims made by Ivan
Sanderson and his supporters, and they're gonna say that's malarkey,
(11:44):
don't believe it. Via vortices, or a whole nother other
realm of the made up. And you know, we see this,
we see similar things happen with theories about lay lines
or something where they say people are just drawing lines
random and ascribing meaning to them. But what exactly is
(12:05):
supposed to be going on here? So in his book
which was published in nineteen eighty nine called The Dragon's Triangle,
this author of Berlitz said that Japan lost five military
vessels in the area that we're talking about between nineteen
fifty two and nineteen fifty four, and that accounts for
(12:25):
a loss of somewhere in the neighborhood of seven hundred sailors.
Another author by the name of Dan Cohen wrote a
book in nineteen seventy four called Curses, Hexes and Spells,
in which he reported that legends of the Danger of
the Devil, c Devil's Triangle, what have you, are centuries
(12:46):
old as far as Japanese lore goes. So it's most
famous modern casualty was the number five Kyo Maru, which
was a scientific research vessel that disappeared with the loss
of everyone on board on September twenty fourth, nineteen fifty three,
and that's a date that's wrongly reported often then yeah, yeah, yeah,
(13:11):
sometimes nineteen fifty two, nineteen fifty eight, but the actual
date is in nineteen fifty three. And by any any
single person's measurement, it is it is an enormous tragedy
to lose people. Let see, but let's let's look at
some of these other claims. There's stories and allegations. That's
(13:31):
number five, Kyo Maru. That's the most well known modern
one according to other proponents of the idea. As Noel
mentioned just a second ago, the story dates back for centuries.
So you'll hear tales of fleets from China and Kublai
Khan going missing in the area. The specific legend that
(13:53):
we're digging around in is one that says in the
twelve hundreds, Kubla Khan tried several times to invade Japan,
crossing the Devil's Triangle. In this process, according to his story,
he lost his vessels and he lost forty thousand men,
especially at the time. Yes, it is um and we mentioned,
(14:17):
you know, we we mentioned that they've wrongly reported the
date of that modern tragedies nineteen fifty two or nineteen
fifty eight, which lets us know that things slip a
little um with the Cayu Maru. Oftentimes, the authors who
say that this is an example of somebody being lost
in Japan's Bermuda Triangle, they often make increasing the unsubstantiated claims,
(14:42):
and they say that everything from a visiting UFO to
some sort of lost style electromagnetic Fluke response, I didn't
say what happened. I knew you were going to say
that I didn't. Oh man, there's an entire wiki dedicated
to lost. That's true. I'm not Yeah, I'm not standing
(15:05):
down on that one. The other examples that we hear
cited are often going to be portrayed as military vessels
or large commercial vessels disappearing in calm weather with no
clear explanation. That's the thing where it gets weird for
me is like, you know, you've got these giant vessels
(15:25):
where there's meticulous bookkeeping. They know exactly who's on board,
what's on board, and there is you know, protocol of
keeping in touch with home base. That's the stuff that
really makes me kind of like think, huh, is this
a thing? You know? Yeah, I absolutely absolutely agree. That's
the The ocean is vast and deep. Right, but we
(15:47):
also have technology even the fifties that would allow people
to be in if not continual, incredibly frequent communication with
someone else, you know what I mean, radio existed. You know.
There's one thing. One of the pieces of research that
we looked at in this I think we should just
mentioned at this point was Skept Away, who did an
(16:09):
episode on this and mentions that a lot of the
times the large military vessels from way back in the
day that were reported being missing, we're actually fishing vessels.
Just just point that out right, I'm glad you mentioned that. Well,
we'll see that coming up again later on in the show.
(16:30):
For now, we've I think we've painted some of the
lore and some of the legends and the claims here.
Let's take a look at the evidence evidence after a
word from our sponsor. Unfortunately, evidence of this Devil's triangle
(16:54):
or see in action is extremely hard to come by, right, sure, sure,
of course, there are historical records of fishing boats going missing, sinking,
or wrecking throughout regional history, throughout global history, from the
ancient past to the modern day. However, in this instance,
there are no cases of scholars at the time citing
(17:15):
a Dragon's triangle or attributing widespread paranormal causes to these tragedies.
It was enough for most of human history to just
acknowledge that, you know, the ocean is a very dangerous
and deadly place, and people are not built for it.
To be fair, there were also numerous spiritual explanations for
the tragedy, but I think we can agree that's a
(17:37):
very different thing. Maybe it's more of a belief system,
maybe even on some level coping mechanism. But we would
be remiss if we did not talk about the Kubla
Khan adventure. Because first things first, there really was an
attempted invasion of Japan by the Mongol forces in the
twelve hundreds. Not only was there one, there was more
(17:58):
than one. I guess anything that isn't one is more
than one. Cresson zero. Somebody saved me here, right. So
in twelve to seventy four, the Yuon Fleet set out
with an estimated fifteen thousand Mongol and Chinese soldiers and
eight thousand Korean soldiers in three hundred large vessels, and
(18:18):
they also had four hundred to five hundred smaller craft,
although figures vary widely as to healthen do with these
things depending on the source. Man, that is a massive fleet.
It's a pretty pretty mega fleet. So they initially made
significant progress into the area, but then around nightfall, a
typhoon caused the Mongol ship captains to suggest the land
(18:42):
force re embark in order to avoid the risk of
being shipwrecked marooned on Japanese soil, which would be bad times. Right,
So they were saying, Okay, the weather is clearly sourines,
we need to hop on the boats here and get
back for we are stuck. And who knows what would
have happened, you know, maybe other supporting Japanese forces could
(19:05):
have come to the area. Can we just set the
scene here bends a little bit, or if you would
maybe help. What's what's at stake here? What is the
kind of like the surrounding reason before this of this event? Well,
if we were painting with broad brush strokes, the typical say,
the typical line would be that the Mongol empire depended
(19:30):
upon expansion, so sort of like unrestricted capitalism, it didn't
it couldn't exist without things to consume, you know what
I mean. And also the Mongol forces of the time
were not well known seafaring fighters. They were. They were
(19:54):
you know, they didn't have an awesome navy. They were
much more well known for their ability wage one horses,
for their specialized bows, which were some real, real fascinating stuff.
We're talking about explosives, we're talking about rockets. But can
I just pause the conversation here for one second, everybody
(20:15):
take one step back. As we're recording this, we're in
the aftermath of Harvey here in the United States, and
then Hurricane Irma is on its way, possibly to striking Florida,
definitely going to hit the Caribbean islands, and it's even
coming through Atlanta. Yeah, imagine in the twelve hundreds, you're,
you know, you were experts at the sea, if you're
you know, the captain of a naval ship back then,
(20:37):
especially in a military capacity. Still, you don't have Doppler
radar from across, you know, the other side of the
ocean to see as a typhoon is forming and like
to really get an understanding of where it's headed or
what's going on. That's that's an intense situation because you know,
it has to be pretty close just to even see it.
(20:58):
You know, I would I completely agree I also would
be quick not to underestimate the knowledgies folks have, because
they're probably reading the migratory patterns of birds. They're probably
noticing little things that would pass most of us completely by,
you know, but it's act. But still it's not. But
(21:21):
still you make a great point. It's not comparable to
having Doppler radar or something. By daybreak, only of almost
all the ships had set out to sail back to
mainland China, and those that had This is where the
Devil's dragons triangle stuff comes in, because those that had
(21:41):
were destroyed by the storm. We're talking about around two
hundred Mongol ships lost at sea. The small Japanese boats
were much more maneuverable than the Mongol ships, and so
the remaining ships were on the Mongols I were boarded
(22:02):
by the Japanese and cripple took over. Very un goood,
double plus bad day for everybody, or double unplus. I mean,
I'm not caught up in my nineteen eighty four. The
Mongols would attempt another invasion just a few years later
in twelve eighty one. So that is as we can see,
(22:24):
that is like the root of the cryptic references you'll
hear in these vile vortices or Dragon's Triangle books about
the Great CON's hoards were lost in the Devil's Sea well,
and as as intense and horrifying as being caught in
(22:45):
a typhoon. I'm assuming is I have never experienced it,
but I'm assuming it's intense. Especially then it would have
been considered not such a strange thing, right, I mean, yeah,
when people are aware of weather patterns and the force
of nature at that time, and you attribute it to,
you know, whatever you attribute it to, but generally it's
(23:07):
kind of mundane. Was there may be a sense that,
like the Bermuda Triangle, in some of these areas of
you know, disturbance, shall we say, are maybe more prone
to extreme weather conditions, and that's sort of what gives
them this reputation because there's just you know, that far
out to see you're going to get bigger storms than
(23:30):
you are closer to the mainland. I don't know, that's
a great question. One of the things that we run
into a lot here in the modern day is that
authors and critics, opponents and proponents of different ideas will
accuse each other of misleading the audience. So Charles Berlitz
gets accused of sort of editorializing this thing, this instance
(23:54):
of a failed invasion, and taking a as Matt said,
completely explicable sort of series of events and reframing it
as something in a poorly written reality TV show. And
you know, that's the thing about reality television that just
to go a little bit off air here. I was
(24:15):
never the biggest fan, but I had no idea how
much of that stuff is scripted? And carefully will they
call it produce? Which is funny though, because the like
industry term for that stuff is unscripted. Yeah, exactly right,
And I think, yeah, I think off air. The three
of us at least of all run into what that
(24:37):
looks like a little bit behind the curtain, you know.
And I guarantee you if you if you watch reality television,
I wish you the best and I hope you have
a good time with it. But do be aware that,
I'm sure most people know that every time the camera
is not directly on somebody who is making a big
deal out of an incredibly insignificant problem, there is a
(24:59):
producer or an assistant producer who's sort of grooming them
and coaxing them. Man in some cases trying to get
them drunk. And this is sort of like that, only
the individuals being described didn't really have a say in
it at all. It's just kind of one guy sort
of painting with a broad brush, I guess, and deciding
with the narrative. Actually, and I mean we see that
(25:21):
all the time with history. I mean they say history
is written by the by the victors, and this is
a little bit different than that. But I will never
forget the end of the Ozzy Osbourne reality TV show
where they show you the behind the scenes of the
scripted parts. Oh really, yeah, I never said ruin it
blew my mind, blew my mind. Ozzy Osbourne can read
(25:43):
it well. I said it was a long time ago.
When you imagine that was I guess high school for me.
I can't even remember exactly when it was, but you know,
only mackerel. I don't remember where this came from, and
I will try to find it and put it on
our social media. I read somewhere that there was a
study being conducted, a genetic study being conducted on Ozzy Osbourne.
(26:08):
I don't know if this was a hoax, because they
were trying to figure out how he could have done
so many drugs and still you know, not had debilitating
disease and still be relatively all there. I certainly hope
they included Keith Richards in that study, right, Yeah, he
should be in there too. We've got to well, let's see,
let's give the show a little bit and see if
(26:29):
we can. We can dig that up as we proceed.
But yes, also, to be fair to mister Burlet's we
have not spoken with him directly, and to be even
to be even more fair, this typhoon, this historic typhoon,
(26:53):
did occur at an abnormal time. The invasion took place
in November, but the typical typhoon season runs from May
to October. We've already started talking about some of the
problems with this story and this legend. In nineteen ninety five,
an American author named Larry Cush published The Bermuda Triangle
(27:17):
Mystery Solved Who I Know. Along the way, he debunked
or for many people, he debunked Burlitz's claims about the
Bermuda Triangle and the Dragon's Triangle. He says that the
military vessels that were mentioned that as we allude to earlier,
were actually just fishing vessels. Now Why does that matter, Well,
(27:41):
it matters because fishing vessels are easily lost, and they're
extremely common, right, and they're probably a little bit smaller,
and they're yeah, they're going to be in many cases,
they're gonna be much much smaller, and for those to
get lost is an unfortunate reality of life at sea,
(28:02):
especially if we're considering also that many of the fishing
military vessels have the ability for their story to be known.
They probably have better communications systems, you know, might not
be the case with a lot of smaller fishing vessels,
you know, anywhere from mom and pop operations to like
local businesses or local regional businesses. But there's more, yes, yes,
(28:28):
as Billy Mays was wont to say, there is indeed more.
Some of those crashes listed by Charles Burletts sank outside
the area that's defined as the Dragons triangle. Now, is
that a problem with where they sank or you know,
the boundaries of the Dragons triangle. Maybe it's bigger than
we think, Maybe it is, Maybe it is. Kush also
(28:50):
wrote that the Japanese vessel carried not a hundred personnel,
as burlets a claim, but only thirty one, and that
an undersea volcane, know is what destroyed it. M Now
that's peculiar on its in its own right in my mind. Yeah,
and your ce volcano has sound weird. And then okay,
another another problem with this idea. If the legend really
(29:12):
does go back for centuries and centuries, then why isn't
there more scratch that, any information about it in the
historical record from any of the countries lining the place
where this this triangle is supposed to exist. And then
enters the skeptoids. Brian Dunning he did, or supposedly did
(29:37):
a large search for any type of newspaper, magazine, articles, books,
really anything written down specifically about the dragons see Triangle,
Devil's Triangle, all that stuff, and he came up empty
handed until twenty years after the loss of the Cayumaru.
Apparently the story then just be came, It was breathed
(30:02):
into existence. So yeah, apparently this legend of things going
back for centuries was fairly recent invention, at least according
to Brian Dunning and the research she conducted. The first
written records of the trying will only show up in
the nineteen seventies, and then when they blew up in
the fringe scene. The literature became flooded with accounts of
(30:23):
this new mysterious region, with tales that had been feared
for centuries. Nearly all published references again, Dunning sites this
as well do as well as a couple of others.
Nearly all published references are from the early seventies, and
they're immediately upon the heels of Ivan Sanderson's articles from
nineteen seventy one nineteen seventy two, and all of that
(30:46):
stuff led Dunning to conclude that quote, in short, there
is no devil cy and there never was outside the
imagination of Ivan Sanderson and the authors who wrote about
his vile vortices. But it sounds so great. Vile vortices.
They're just really like disgusting. Yes, yeah, they don't tip,
(31:10):
they squeeze toothpaste from the middle. They picked their noses
forgot to shower for about a month. So uh. Personally,
I think the phrase vild vortices sounds um like a
super villain weapon, like something Cobra Commander would use. Yeah,
or a team. It's like a team of somebody really
(31:34):
really dastardly. It's just a it's like a biker gang
that got whole a hold of a thesaurus but didn't
read the whole entry. What is a team rocket from
from Pokemon? So we we do, you know, we do
hate to look. We all want to believe in these
(31:55):
amazing extraordinary things. And the long and short of it
is in the research that we found, in primary historical
sources and in common parlance in the area, this is
largely considered a myth, and it's not treated with near
(32:15):
as much prominence as several other local or regional extraordinary
events or beliefs. This is in many ways kind of
a Western thing, strangely, right, Yeah, it's a It's a
thing that people in the coast of China and in
the coast of Japan don't really think about or give
(32:37):
near as much credence to feel like a tale of
the other. Yeah, yeah, and haven't for certainly haven't been
worrying about it for centuries. Most people are you know,
families or friends on the coast just hoping they're loved
ones make it back. Before you know, a storm hits
(32:58):
or disaster occur, which are real dangers. But we're not
ending the tail there yet. We do have some explanations
a peak if you will, behind the curtain. After a
word from our sponsors, welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. As
(33:23):
we promised before the break, we have some possible explanations
for some of these bizarre occurrences in the Devil's Sea. Um.
Starting off, there's pretty much no way around it. But
U boats and ships and vessels you know what, float uh?
They really have disappeared in this area of the Pacific,
(33:46):
you know quite a bit in fact um that much
is true. But what's the deal with the triangle or
with all of the triangles? You know what? Why y
Rooney there for a second like it? What's the deal
is that? Any seld seinfeld E Rooney? Too interesting? But really,
(34:08):
really really really yes, what's going on the triangle? Why
aren't there more Devil's squares or Devil's octagons? Obviously? You
know you gotta have the angs and angles, Devil's pentagram.
Come on, that's what I'm saying, you know you Devil's
not a square, Devil's not a circle, all right. The
devil is clearly a triangle or a series of triangles.
(34:30):
It shaped like a goat's head. Okay, literally edgy, okay,
boys too too much by that's fine? Um, But yeah,
like that's true. But what's what why? So you know,
we there there is research that explores some of these
environmental changes UM as the cause of such anomalies as
said triangle triangles. Um. One of these explanations is that
(34:55):
the vast field of methane hydrate that exist at the
bottom of the ocean in that area could potentially have
something to do with these disturbances that we talked about
that originally of some people attributed to an electromagnetic lost
kind of situation. Yeah, these are the existence of these
(35:20):
So yeah, this is this is very unfair. Nature's brutal
and unfair. This is one example nature doesn't care about you. No,
not at all. There are these deposits of methane hydrates
gas methane class rates, and when they reach a certain
(35:43):
temperature they will quote unquote explode. That temperature just so
you know, is not very insane. It's sixty four degrees.
Thankfully there are you know the bottom of the ocean.
M Yeah, there are these ice like deposits that break
off from the bottom and they can rise, forming bubbles
on the surface of the water. And again this is
(36:06):
just like this is the scary part. This theoretical, Uh,
these gas eruptions could interrupt buoyancy. What this means is
they could easily sink a ship, leaving no trace of debris.
You would just be sailing along and then like it
would suck you down. Essentially, you almost you lose buoyancy,
(36:26):
so you would just you're the ship would just go.
When I picture your Bermuda triangle, that's kind of what
I've always pictured is something like that. So that's pretty wild.
See in my head, it's it's a vortex essentially. So
you're saying it literally just disrupts the ability of your
(36:46):
vessel to float. It would be like a bunch of
air bubbles down below your ship that you're going over
and you just kind of and it's not exactly that.
I picture like the water just opening up in like
a hole and then you just fall down. And I
always pictured, you know, I remember so many films or older,
(37:10):
older things like episodes of the Twilight Zone, where there
would be this gray, all enveloping fall rolling in and
then you know, the captain or the pilot of a plane,
for instance, they do the thing where they tap their
their yeah, their compass and stuff and the altimeter and
everything's going crazy and next thing you know, it opens
(37:31):
up in there in a weird unknown land. But then
they crash or they're like on top of the mountain
or something. Yeah, I'm really I gotta I gotta harp
on this. So the water is affected in such a
way that it will not support the weight of the ship.
So here's here's the problem. No one has ever seen
(37:54):
an actual eruption like this, and you wouldn't. No one
would be left to tell the tale. No one knows
how large the bubbles coming off the methane deposit would be.
But in theory give it. Yeah, but the scientists who
pump your break, we're getting right. But the jazz. But
there are scientists who have conducted research on this, and
they found that they made a model of a single
(38:17):
large bubble coming up under a ship, and they trapp
trapped water between vertical glass plates. They launched gas bubbles
from the bottom right, and they used a video camera
to record what happened to this whole they have floating
on the surface. If the thing is exactly above the bubble,
then it's safe. But if it's far enough way it safe.
(38:39):
It's where it's toward the edge that it just sinks
in so it doesn't explode. The bubble sort of swallows it,
for lack of a better word, which to me is
more frightening than an explosion. No, you're helping me out
real big with my mental image of this phenomenon. It's
freaking me out. This is this the best advertisement for
(39:02):
cruise ever? I don't really, I don't want to be
that far out in the man. You know, we just
did the Titanic. I mean, like, come on, we really
are scaring people away from you know, being on the
ocean right now. Well, no reason to stop yet because
there's a different explanation, right, Should we get into Great
White sharks instead? No? Because yeah, what's up with sars?
(39:24):
Save that for another day. I'm just saying, like, another
reason why I don't like to swim in the ocean.
But okay, let's keep going. Oh okay. Well, another reason
that ships could disappear more frequently in this area would
be that small islands in this triangle in the Dragons
triangle frequently disappear in New islands frequently up here due
(39:48):
to volcanoes and seismic activity. We cannot forget, ladies and
gentlemen about the Ring of Fire. The Ring of Fire
is this huge twenty five thousand mile shoe shaped area
in the basin of the Pacific Ocean down there at
the bottom, including in the area that we consider to
be the Devil's Seas. It's home to just a ton
(40:11):
of earthquakes and volcanic activity down there. It's associated with
almost a continuous creation of trenches, oceanic trenches, of volcanic arcs,
volcanic belts, plate movements, and it has over four hundred
and fifty volcanoes. That's over seventy five percent of the
world's active and dormant volcanoes exist in this Ring of
(40:34):
fire down at the bottom of the ocean. So is
it possible that a volcanic eruption on the ocean floor
could reach a ship? Well, yeah, you're just talking about
the release of gases again as the you know, the
immense heat that's being generated right below where the water
is and then coming up and meeting with that water,
(40:56):
creating steam that has to get pushed up. Again, you're
talking about following ships potentially. I know that, Um, this
is this kind of ridiculous. Twenty fifteen, there was an
active underwater volcano that was that came to life off
of Granada and you guys will really enjoy the name.
(41:18):
Are you ready? It was called the Kick Him Jenny Volcano. Yeah,
kick him Jenny? Yeah, yeah, like that like three words.
If it's New Zealand, uh, kick him, kick him Jimmy
Jimmy or Jenny Jeni. Yeah, oh boy, everybody and everybody
(41:39):
in New Zealand. We apologize. We've been practicing this accent.
I don't think we have any New Zealand listeners left
at this point. Every's gone no right in and let
us know. Actually, let us know about keyweek conspiracies too.
We'd love to hear those. Um. So, the problem with
this is I'm bringing this up because this is a
good it is a good specific example of the problems here,
(42:05):
because not only is a underwater volcano powerful enough, as
as Matt said, to affect the surface, but it could
even shoot hot rocks into the air. These can be massive.
In the case of Kickum Jenny, scientists set up an
(42:26):
exclusion zone for ships around the volcano. Recreational ships had
to stay three miles away from it, and I think
commercial ships had to stay a mile or two away. Yeah,
just in case so it is completely possible that some
of these ships, maybe even the Maru that we mentioned
earlier number five, it is possible that these ships were
(42:48):
instead the victims of volcanoes. Wow. That's terrifying for me,
much more terrifying than a mysterious devil's area. Yeah, what
about mysterious gas bubbles? That's that's that's the one that
gives me pause. Yeah, I feel like a fiery death
at c is um more understandable than just all this
(43:11):
sudden saying, oh, we're on the water, now we're in it.
Why can't I breathe? Yeah? Yeah, that's the thing though,
I mean, like a fiery death at sea, it seems
like it would leave behind more flotsam and jetsam and whatnot.
Like the whole you know, kicker of these of these
places usually tends to be gone without a trace, right,
that's sort of like the the calling cards. Yeah, and
(43:36):
then if you do find them, it's, you know, fifty
two hundreds of years later at the bottom of the sea. Weird.
And we'd like to know what We'd like to know
what your experiences are, your maritime experiences, and most importantly,
what your take is on these ideas. Of the Bermuda triangle,
(43:56):
the Dragons triangle. Also, you know, I want to ask people, well,
which idea about this vile vortices thing in general, because
we would love to hear about a source that comes
from before the nineteen fifties. Let's say, you know, I
(44:16):
do you live near one right? Could you go check
it out? Or have you had any experiences there? It's
how we find out if we have any friends in
the Eastern Islands. If so, we may be coming to
your house to crash. Will be there in two weeks?
And is it? Will it take us two weeks? Well,
it's just there's a lot of planning that goes into
(44:37):
that's probably true. Yeah, so unfortunately, Yeah, a lot of
the stuff about this seems to have sprung up after
the fact, with a little supporting evidence in the preceding literature. However,
we do know that there is absolutely nothing fictitious about
losing ships at sea. According to a maritime assurer named Leon's,
(45:00):
losses at sea continue in the modern day. Yeah, I mean,
this is still clearly happening. We've got stats from two
thousand and seven to twenty sixteen indicating that the area
comprising South China Indonesia and the Philippines counted two hundred
and forty nine lost ships, while the area north of that,
(45:23):
think Japan the Korean Peninsula in the like, counted one
hundred and thirty three lost vessels. And these numbers are
actually only decline thankfully. Yeah, the maritime industry on the
whole has seen the total number of losses decrease during
(45:43):
twenty sixteen to eighty five, and then the number of
incidents or casualties also is on a year over year downturn.
And according to another report from Alians, one of the
big questions would be how many ships disappeared without a
(46:04):
trace right overall from two thousand and twenty thirteen, there
were only seven that were considered what they call missing
slash overdue. So you can still be missing for two
years and be overdue. Wow, missing for two years at sea.
(46:25):
It's not a fate I want to experience. And so
concludes our show. You know what we haven't done in
a little while? Is it a jot Gona? Our first
shout out goes to Nick says high gang, love your show.
In the effervescent episode three hundred, you mentioned blood donations.
(46:47):
I think it was a ninety nine Pie podcast or
maybe Radio Lab where I first heard that donated blood
is a big business and that hospitals seek out more
blood than they need to sell it to other hospitals.
It might even have been stuff to blow your mind
to come to think of it. Well, you need to
get your podcast straight, Nick, come on. In the process.
In the process, lots of plasma gets thrown away. Apparently
(47:11):
here are a couple of links that go that take
us down this rabbit hole. So we send us some
great stuff from WPTV and then there's a nice little
reddit today I learned section here. So we're going to
dive into this, Nick, and we'll report back with what
we find. Literal blood money, What about plasma money? The
(47:33):
same ring to it, doesn't It's a wave of the
future though, right, plasma money, that's where all the money is.
Let's get in early. Our next shout out comes from Nicole. Hi, Guys,
what happened to the video podcast in the iTunes store?
I haven't received any new updates in quite some time?
Are the podcast audio only now? Thanks Nicole. We mentioned
the top of the show we had some changes in
(47:55):
the works in terms of some investment in our company
and the podcast business. I guess he could say, spinning
off from the how stuff works in general. With that
has come kind of an emphasis on the podcasts, and
that means a less video man and you know, Matt
and beyond the iTunes store or Apple podcast video store.
(48:19):
We have put a pause on our video production for
the stuff they don't want you to know, video series,
specifically on our YouTube channel and anywhere else that you've
been watching our show, maybe on Amazon, and we're just
putting a pause on that. Like Noel said, to focus
on this show, this thing that people who make more
(48:40):
money than us and make decisions above us have faith in.
So we're gonna keep going with it. But there may
be like opportunities online to supplement some of the stuff
we do here with some video stuff or so full
and off, so we'll see. But you know, a lot
of exciting new stuff coming down the pike, but we're
not fully aware of all of it yet. Thanks so
much for writing in Nicole. We have one more shout
(49:03):
out for today, but it's a it's a bit of
a doozy, so get comfortable in your seat or scoot
to the edge of it, you know, wherever you prefer
to encounter doozy messages. Hey guys, says Laura B. I
just listened to your podcast about America's Zone of Death,
and I'm actually a former student of Professor cult. I
attached the photo of his class syllabus to prove it.
(49:23):
I really appreciate you guys giving him credit for this
topic because it's been showing up a lot on social
media without him being credited at all. That's real. That's
a real pill, Laura. I find that personally offensive. That
was me, Ben, that wasn't Laura. Laura continues, You guys
should give professor call to Google because he has also
written on a wide variety of other super interesting little
(49:46):
discuss topics and I'm sure he'd be more than happy
to talk with you guys. Keep up the good work,
Laura nice. Thank you so much for writing in Laura.
And here's the bonus. Here's the du you part. Professor
Kay did write back to us. He wrote back to
us yesterday, I think, and his email was very very kind,
(50:12):
to the point where I was thinking, Man, I wish
you were my professor. He will just read some some
brief highlights here. What they really liked was he said
a few points I heard and enjoyed your podcast about
my Yellowstone theory, I wanted to reach out offer my
enthusiastic participation with whatever else you want to do with
(50:33):
the subject, and also on the pardon power. As you mentioned,
a few points that came to mind as I listened. One,
you called me doctor cult, but like so many law professors,
I'm not a PhD. Also, I pronounced cults like halt
or as salt, not kilt. No worries, though I've been
called far worse. I think this guy's it creates. It's
a humor too. In case you get me feedback on
(50:55):
the Yellowstone theory, of very common response is that the
state of Idaho would just prosecute you, and that's true
of most national parks. If the Feds couldn't prosecute you,
the state would be able to step in. But in
a few of them, like Yellowstone, the FEDS have exclusive jurisdictions,
so that's no go. Three, It's worth mentioning that if
you tried to use the loophole, you would still be
subject to get ensued civil liability and prosecuted for misdemeanors
(51:18):
for which you have no right to a jury trial.
You also would not be able to use the loophole
if you did any part of the crime, like forming
your intent or conspiring outside the zone. Oh man, you
know what that means. We're already guilty. Our moonshine operation
already went elbows up. Perhaps most importantly, if you're thinking
a point something, there's probably someone else there with the
(51:40):
same idea, and he's bigger than you. All of this
eliminates much of the loophole's usefulness to would be criminals.
I still think the loophole is worth fixing, though, even
with all the reasons why it's limited and why it
might not work, there really is no good reason not
to fix it and just color inside the lines. On pardons.
(52:01):
Number one, you mentioned pardons declaring you guilty. I wrote
a short piece and attempt to disabuse people of that notion,
And so he has a piece in the Wall Street
Journal that he refers as to pardons aren't only for
the guilty. And two he said self pardoning was the
subject of my first legal article in nineteen ninety six
and a chapter of my book in twenty twelve. If
(52:22):
you're ever interested in doing anything on pardons, I'd love
to help and he also recommends chapter from a book
called Constitutional Cliffhangers, a legal guy for presidents and their enemies,
And it's on the loophole in the twenty second Amendment
that could allow a two term president to stay in power. Oh,
I want to do both of those. You want to
(52:42):
both be president's stay of power? Yeah, that specifically, as
well as self pardoning and partnering in general. I just
want to learn more about that, and I think people
afterre would want to as well. Yeah, let us know
if you'd like to learn more about legal loopholes. And
we are going to be following up with our new
(53:03):
favorite law professor. And for now, this concludes our osh
but our show, and that's the end of this classic episode.
If you have any thoughts or questions about this episode,
you can get into contact with us in a number
of different ways. One of the best is to give
us a call. Our number is one eight three three
(53:25):
stdwy TK. If you don't want to do that, you
can send us a good old fashioned email. We are
conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff they Don't Want You
to Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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