March 31, 2017 • 51 mins
How did the human species become the most self-aware, successful primate on the planet?
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff. They don't want you to know. Hello,
(00:25):
and welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name isn't They call me Ben? And you are
you that makes this stuff? They don't want you to know.
The gang's all here. The gang is all here. Uh.
And we're talking about something that a lot of people
have some very passionate opinions on. Yes, and this is
(00:46):
that old disclaimer that we make in front of every
podcast that has to do with anything religious or belief
system that is held tightly, and that is that we
are not telling you what to believe. Beliefs are your own. Yes,
there will be no poo pooing of faith right. Yes,
every single person has a right to their own personal
(01:08):
spiritual beliefs. Two posit otherwise would be at the very
least not well thought out correct. And it's kind of
the and and an athemat to what we do overall.
We're not here to tell you what's what. We're here
to look at some sides of issues and presented all
as fairly and balanced. Lee, is that a word is
(01:31):
American English. Everything is the word. I couldn't agree more so.
So we're gonna do is examine the history of one
particular religion and look at some you know, sides to
it that maybe aren't explored very often in your daily ongoings. Yeah,
it's very important. We're looking at this from an historical
academic perspective. We want to give a shout out to
(01:52):
a friend of the show, longtime listener, Henry h who
gave us this idea. You might remember him from our
previous episode on the FBI and counter culture and our
whole disclaimer thing. Basically, I feel like we're what we're
always implying is science hoologists in the audience. Oh man,
we left how a disclaimer on that last episode, though
(02:12):
it should have said don't do drugs. I know, speaking speaking, yes,
everyone listening, we discourage you from doing drugs. Uh, outrightly,
we cannot legally tell you that drugs are cool. Most importantly, though,
we were joking and we said we were on drugs
(02:33):
doing that. Oh yeah, that is very true. That was
a joke based on and I know you guys probably
know this, but we just had to say it again.
We were sleep deprived me less so than these fellas.
But we were playing off of that sleep deprived vibe
and writing that like a crazy snake to Valhalla. And yeah,
I hope everyone was aware of that. If not, and
(02:53):
you thought we were dosing up in the studio, I'm
here to tell you otherwise. And we we pre shade
all the emails we got. We had several people right
in and say, hey, just be sleep deprived all the time.
But NOL did a great job editing because the raw
form had some that was brutal. Yeah, yeah, slippery. So
(03:18):
here we are religion. The big are the earliest evidence
of religious ideas dates back hundreds of thousands of years,
all the way back to what is commonly called the
Middle and Lower Paleolithic periods. And just for some perspective here,
the average creature qualifying as human during this time would
probably disturb you if you just saw them walking on
(03:40):
the street today at least, wouldn't recognize them as human. Well,
even if they were wearing, you know, the clothes that
you yourself were wearing, you would you would notice some obvious,
obvious differences. And we don't want to get to too
caught up in this, but we did an episode on
(04:01):
what are called the like lost races of humanity, such
as Dennis Ouvans looking at differences between Homo rectus and
Homo sapiens, neanderthal and Homo Flunzis those the little uh
huh Yeah, the s have been found on on just
(04:21):
a very small patch of the world, and the current
the current debate is whether it was a true speciation
of some sort or whether it was just a community
condition for last a better word. So do check that
out if you haven't checked it out before. And there's
another there's another thing that's really interesting. You can hear. Uh.
(04:45):
You can hear our colleague and occasional guest on the show,
Joe McCormick, who works over It's Stuff to blow your mind. Uh,
when he and his co host Robert Lamb did an
episode on what is called the bicameral mind. This is crazy.
There's this theory that for part of human civilization, people
were not self aware the way you are now. Like,
(05:07):
if you're listening to this, you're thinking in your head,
maybe I am listening to this right, just just thought
that sentence right, and then the words that you hear
are translated into your own thoughts. Yeah, like an internal monologue.
I usually just see them visually as like letters in
a cartoon spelled out in the sky. You know. You
know that. I think it makes sense. You got the
(05:28):
you got the word balloons at that time. I think
I might be working with a tri cameral mind. So
what happens is the idea is that in in the
distant past of civilization, instead of hearing a voice in
your head and thinking that's my internal dialogue, that's my
internal dialogue, these early people would hear a voice and
(05:48):
they would think, holy crap, somebody's talking to me. Who
who is that in my head? Uh? What are you?
Why are you? Are there? Are you there? God? It's
me Kragner, you know? And uh. And one piece of
evidence for folks who believe this is the dramatically different
(06:11):
writing style of the Iliad. In the Iliad, classical scholars
amongst us will remember it was written somewhere between eight
hundred and seven b C or b C E, whatever
your favorite flavor is. Characters just sort of do things,
you know, and their motivations for a large part of
(06:32):
this story aren't kind of not present. Just something happens.
Things just happen, and since we know Greek culture very
quickly became a literature of consciousness. Uh. The Iliad is
sometimes seen as a great turning point, tipping point shout
out to Malcolm Gladwell uh, and a window back into
what they call the unsubjective times. And every kingdom was
(06:53):
at theocracy, and every man was the slave of voices
heard whenever novel situations occur. It's crazy. And religion it
might also predate humanity, depending on how you define religion. Right. So,
higher order mammals like cetaceans a new word, fancy word
(07:14):
for dolphins and whales that I just learned. Um, elephants, canines,
they all recognize the difference between a living thing and
a corpse. Hopefully you can as well. Uh. Millennia before
Homo sapiens existed, UM, its predecessors and parallels practiced some
form of ancestral recognition, which is an understanding that the
(07:35):
body was nothing but a vessel for the mind or
an idea. UM. And then archaeologists referred to apparent intentional
burials of early Homo sapiens from as early as three
hundred thousand years ago as evidence of religious beliefs, which
makes sense to me, right, Yeah, they realize that something
(07:55):
was there, there is a ritual going yeah, and then
it's not ritual occurs. Other evidence of religious ideas include
symbolic artifacts from the Middle Middle Stone Age sites in Africa.
But of course it's kind of tricky to interpret this,
you know, even even in the best case scenario, there's
(08:17):
room for interpretation, which is going to be important as
we explore this. Archaeological evidence from more recent periods is
less controversial. Number of artifacts from the Upper Paleolithic are
generally interpreted by scientists as representing religious ideas, meaning, in general,
a bunch really smart people who have spent their lives
(08:38):
figuring out what this stone shard means all got on
the same page and said, you know, cool, they knew
he was dead and they did a thing. Yeah. Well,
I suppose you could also argue that with enough experience,
you know, you might realize that a dead thing starts
to be gross and we should probably just get it
(08:58):
out of sight and out of my mind, or it
makes you sad, so you don't want to look at anymore.
So let's bury it in the hole in the ground.
Just Devil's advocating now that's a very you know, that's
a very good idea because you know, many animals, if
I remember their pure group or their mate or their
offspring dies, they just leave. I'm just like, all right,
(09:20):
but I like it here. I don't want to have
to look at dead, rotting grand mob for the rest
of you know, until for the foreseeable future. Let's let's
get her out of let's bury her in this upit.
Uh yeah, there are people who know there, there are
people who keep keep the remains of their loved ones.
And Faulkner has a great story about it, but of
(09:41):
course spoilers just in case for a hundred year old story. Yeah. Well, okay,
so we talked about these, Let's let's talk about like
examples of things that are clearly agreed to be religious.
The venus figurine are you know, a rather voluptuous, often
(10:06):
headless figure right certainly looks headless all of the examples
that I've seen, And there are elaborate burial rituals around
the world. There are cave paintings. But where did this
all come from? That's today's question. What prompted early humanity
or it's close predecessors and parallels is Moll said to
ascribe occurrences in the physical world to the winds and
(10:29):
the systems something unseeable. Is it drugs? Maybe? Well? Yeah,
what connected the either the bicamera mind, what connected the
parts of the brain that were previously not connected or
you know, was it just an evolutionary thing or was
it a chemical yeah? Or was it a social thing?
(10:50):
Is essentially we're not sure, like we as a species,
they're they're kind of still tossing this one around, spitballing.
But there's theories, right, yeah, yeah, the theories. Uh, let's
call one. We had to do it. D Oh, it's
not it's not funny for you guys yet because you're
(11:11):
listening and you don't. It's funny if you read it.
This is a theory that was put forth by Kelly
James Clark. He's a senior research fellow at Kaufman Interfaith
Institute at Grand Valley State University in Michigan. Oh, that
is a mouthful a lot. So he believes that humans
on the Serengetti who quote survived to procreate were those
who had developed what evolutionary scientists call a hypersensitive agency
(11:35):
detecting device or had h D. D becomes in a
fourth dimensional pun so in basic terms, in plain terms,
this meant that people who are more likely to survive
and reproduce, reproduce and pass on their experiences as well
as their genes were people who perceived that many other
(11:58):
things in the world external things have agency, and what
we mean by that is the ability to act of
their own accord. I have agency. Other things have agency,
like like what else? What would have agency? Animals walking
around might be the one of the first things you notice.
Secret agents other humans very didn't say human secret ages
(12:25):
like Perry the platypus on Phineas and firm he's a
secret agent with agency. It was also a platypus. I
gotta tell you, I don't know what that is. It's
a great show. It's like a kids show, but adults
like it too, alright, kind of like an Adventure Time thing. Right, Yeah,
it's a Disney show, but it's actually very clever. It's
very well written. Looking into it, do it while looking
(12:47):
into it, you'll you'll notice that this this had h
a d D. This understanding of how the world worked
facilitated this rapid decision making process that people had to
go through when they, for instance, are rustling in the grass.
So yeah, perfect, not so much stopping to reflect on
the transients of life as going holy smokes, lions do
(13:09):
what they want. I better run. I love that picture
of the some of the first humans understanding that that
lion can come over here and attack me at any time,
not just oh there's a lion, not just the grass moves,
but the grass moves because because so that's the kicker, right.
(13:32):
In addition to helping humans make rational decisions, survival based decisions,
had may have planted the seeds for what we know
as religious thought. Is it sort of like object permanence
where it's sort of like, you know, that thing will
always behave in that way, or that thing is only
behaving this way at this moment that I'm observing it. Yes,
(13:54):
So sort of like that if a tree falls in
the forest and you're not around, does it make us
sound or it's like if that if my mom is
there behind that bush, is she really not there? A? Yeah,
those are important distincts, That's what I'm saying, Like, well,
those are things that we come to psychologically as we
grow older. But it's important what we're talking about. You know,
(14:17):
in terms of evolution to make those distinctions that allow
us to actually learn from our mistakes. And it's absolutely crucial,
and it's one of those early developmental milestones, right like
when when your children are growing up, there are really
sensitive times in the early years when all of a
sudden they have that Eureka moment and you see it happen. Yeah,
(14:40):
I've seen it firsthand recently with my kids, especially with mirrors,
little things like that. We don't have to go into
it anyway, it's cool, but mirrors are weird, agreed. So
it wasn't just animals and other things moving around that
they ascribed agency to. They also ascribed it two things. Sure,
(15:01):
these rain drops now are falling on purpose on droptops,
but but yeah, things that absolutely don't have agency, like
drop tops. I don't know the first human raindrop. You
gotta make the top drop drop on its own drop top.
You got to apply something drops the top though, right,
(15:23):
So when the rainfalls, like something dropped that rain, what
was it? Yeah, like creation demands a creator? Yeah exactly.
I mean we're sitting in this room right now recording
this and wait, some someone is going to cut to
an ad break. It's me and we're back. But who
(15:47):
was it? It was? It was me? It was definitely
say it was. I gotta believe it. You don't see
it happen. That's the magic of podcasting. That part happens
away from your prying eyes, in the same way that
some sort of prime mover creator deity drops the drops
on the tops? What drop? But where does the drop
(16:12):
ultimately drop? Here's another theory about religion. What if instead
of a single individual um adaptation or Shamalan plot twist
and the story of humanity? But if it's not just
a story about things that apply to individuals reproducing, what
if religion is more of a group adaptation? Oh, I
(16:32):
could go along with that. This is an idea by
Robin Dunbar, and evolutionary psychologist and anthropologist at the University
of Oxford in the UK. His work focuses mostly on
the behavior of primates, including you know, things like baboons.
Why does he sound familiar to me? I think you know? No,
I don't. He is the famous proponent of something called
(16:57):
Dunbar's number. You made a video on this, Yes, we
talked about this on the show too. And it's the
idea that the human brain is physiologically limited. Think about
for anyone who works with computers extensively, think about the
physiological hardware limits of a computer. There's some software it
(17:20):
can't run. There are some things that it doesn't have
enough memory to store. Right. We run into this often,
as you can imagine daily. What was his number? Is
it a hundred something? It was two on four, six, five, three? No? No, no, okay, yes,
you're right, I think it's yeah, one, eight, eight, you know,
(17:43):
just keep it, Nate, it was it was a hundred
and fifty maybe fifty. Yeah, Humans that you can ever
really maintain a relationship with or see as a peer. Yes,
And then after see, as you know, the way that
you see your friends, you understand that they are the
main characters of their own story. And no matter how
(18:05):
close you are, you are a cameo. You are a
secondary character and everybody else's story. And after that number,
your brain is just incapable of understanding that those other
people past that, like number three hundred and forty seven
that you meet, is just the thing that takes the
(18:27):
garbage out, or the thing that walks by you on
the way to the bus every morning, the thing that
runs the justice department, the thing that you vote for.
You know, it's a scary idea. But Dunbar also applies
this thinking to your religion. Um, and that he says
that religion may have actually evolved as what he calls
(18:49):
a group level adaptation, which we mentioned before, religion being
a quote kind of glue that holds society together. Um.
We've also heard it as referred to as the opiate
of the masses. A similar yet antithetical notion to that
in an interesting way. Yeah, perfect, because it is like,
that's religion and ideology. A value system is a way
(19:10):
for number three seven to have something in common with you.
You know. Now it's not just the thing in the
justice department or the thing that cooks the food. It's
also the thing that believes what I believe. Yeah, yes, exactly.
And there's one more theory. It is one of the
most controversial theories. Do we need another disclaimer? Um, if
(19:37):
you if you're feeling uncomfortable at this point, stick your
fingers in your ears. No, yes, do that, and then
also rewind back to that part where we had a disclaimer,
and then come back here just to reassure yourself. Here's
the question, what if the original inspiration for some of
the world's most influential religions was ultimately not evolution, but hallucinogens. WHOA,
(20:02):
that's right, magic mushrooms, psilocybin, simple simon. Have we already
said psilocybin? Let's say it again. I think that's where
simple simon comes from, because it kind of sounds like psilocybin. Yeah,
how about those Mario make big bites God's flesh? Did
you make that last one out? I don't know. Is
that in the vernacular? It's a mushroom? Okay it is? Now.
(20:25):
I love mushrooms. Now when I say that, I mean
I love delicious mushrooms. Portobellos, you know, is trumpeters, the
weird ones, the weird, bulbous looking ones. But as we know,
when you grow them a certain way, certain species, they
can make the get a little funny, make you think,
make you feel a little funny, think a little funny,
(20:45):
see things a little differently. Here's where it gets crazy.
In his book The Sacred Mushroom in the Cross, an
author named John Marco Allegro argues that quote, our present
concern is to show that Judaism and Christianity are cultic
expressions of an endless pursuit by man to discover instant
power and knowledge. Granted the first proposition that the vital
(21:06):
forces of nature are controlled by an extra terrestrial intelligence,
these religions are logical developments from older, cruder fertility cults.
With the advance of technical proficiencies, the aim of religious
ritual became less to influence the weather and the crops
than to attain wisdom and the knowledge of the future. Essentially,
his argument is that modern religions, especially the Abramaic ones, Judaism, Christianity,
(21:30):
Islam of Islam, to a degree, sprang from these ancient
fertility cults. I gotta pause really fast here and just
point out that I've never thought in my head about
a religion as focusing on an extra terrestrial intelligence, as
an um an intelligence that is not on earth or
of Earth. Even when you say it that way, Isn't
(21:53):
that with like all religion, Yeah, it is, it is,
But I've never I've never used it. I've never used
the phrase extra terre real intelligence in that manner of
thinking about what God could be or is extraterrestrial has
become very specific in our time, at least in our
version of this language, it's become this kind of like
there's like hocum surrounding it to the point where you
(22:15):
can't use it in a way that people don't sort
of like turn their noses up at in a way,
you know what I mean. I don't know, like not
all people obviously, let people listen to the show and
we are, you know, into the that those explorations. But
the term extraterrestrial, which when it really just means not
of this earth, has become sort of a buzz phrase
that has negative connotations in terms of like its use
(22:38):
in veracity. But I think it's totally applicable to what
God is, to what religion is, to what these deities
actually are. They're totally extraterrestrials in many ways. Uh, In
many ways, people regardless of the particular religion, would say
this is something beyond us to some degree incomprehensible or dawned,
(22:58):
difficult to comprehend. Legrou goes on and he argues that
these ancient cults had knowledge of psychoactive drugs and plant form,
but they prevented this knowledge from becoming two widespread. They
were the shaman, you know, and they were the priests
and the quote is quote. These were the drug herbs,
the science of whose cultivation and use had been accumulated
(23:20):
over centuries of observation and dangerous experiment. Those who had
this secret wisdom of the plants were the chosen of
their God. To them alone, had he vouchsafed the privilege
of access to the heavenly throne. And if he was
jealous of his power, no less were those who served
him in the cultic mysteries. Theirs was no gospel to
(23:42):
be shouted from the rooftops. Paradise was for none but
the favored few. The incantations and rights by which they
conjured forth their drug plants, and the details of the
bodily and mental preparations undergone before they could ingest their God,
were the secrets of the cult, to which none but
(24:03):
the initiate, bound by fearful oaths, had access. That reminds
me of ayahuasca rituals like that takes the laborious thing
to create the substance that will take you on this
spiritual trip, and the and the ritual of ingestion is
as important as the substance itself. In times of war,
(24:27):
though the widespread social disruption, something happened this, these um
orally transmitted mysteries became difficult to transmit right. People were dying,
people were being imprisoned and slaved, slaughtered, and mass so
the priests had to write this knowledge down. And Allegro's
(24:49):
idea is that they wrote it down in an esoteric
or coded form that only another priest, only another initiate,
would recognize and be able to translate, essentially if you're
going to teach someone else about this. And Allegro argues
that the specific instance where this occurred the turning point
was the Jewish revolt of sixty six eight sixty six,
(25:13):
and we have a quote on that one too, Instigated
probably by members of the cult swayed by their drug
induced madness to believe God and called them to master
the world in his name. They provoked the mighty power
of Rome to swift and terrible action. Jerusalem was ravaged,
her temple destroyed, Judaism was disrupted, and her people driven
(25:34):
to seek refuge. With communities already established around the Mediterranean
coast lands, the Mystery cults found themselves without a central
fount of authority, with many of their priests killed in
the abortive rebellion or driven into the desert. The secrets,
if they were not to be lost forever, had to
be committed to writing, and if found, the documents must
(25:55):
give nothing away or betray those who had dared defy
the Roman author parties. So this need for coded communication
about the use of sacred plants and the performance of
sacred rituals. Then again, we cannot emphasize this enough, according
to this author. According to Allegro, it led to the
creation of a rabbi named Jesus. To tell the story
(26:20):
of a rabbi called Jesus and invest him with the
power and names of this magic drug, to have him
live before the terrible events that had disrupted their lives,
to preach a love between men, extending even to the
hated Romans. Thus, reading such a tale, should it fall
into Roman hands, even their mortal enemies might be deceived
and not probe farther into the activities of the cells
(26:43):
of the mystery cults within their territories. Oh, it sounds
so cool. Grand conspiracy, and this guy Allegro acknowledges that
his sub diffuge failed, as evidenced by the majority of
Christians who believe Jesus Christ was an historical figure, not
a metaphor for a psychoactive drug in some sort of
(27:06):
mystery religion. But what drug was it, you might wonder.
We have one last quote above all they forgot or
purged from the cult in their memories, the one supreme
secret on which their whole religious and ecstatic experience depended.
(27:26):
The names and identity of the source of the drug,
the key to heaven, the sacred mushroom, the fungus recognized
today as the amanita muscaria or the fly a garrick.
So let's take a moment, guys, what do you think
you want to do? Some pros and cons It sounds
(27:47):
like all prose to me. Speaking of all prose, his
argument hinges on pros or more specifically atomology. Yeah, we're
we're getting weird with the puns today. Uh. It relates
the development of language to the development of myths and
religions and cultic practices. So, for example, he relates mushrooms
(28:10):
to fertility or experience of the divine, So he's connecting
it to the phrase son of God. He's arguing that
since he's tracing this back to fertility cults, he's arguing
that the mushroom, by being an encounter with the divine,
was seen as you know, the offspring of God. And
(28:33):
in some ways it might be seen as like a
reproductive fluid, in other ways might be seen as the
flesh of this of this extraterrestrial divine creature. He believes
ancient evidence about the other phrases used to refer to
this stuff will bear out the argument, and he does
acknowledge that it's largely concerned with words and titles. And
(28:56):
he believes that only when we discover the nomenclature of
the sacred fungus within and without the cult can we
begin to understand its function and the theology behind it.
So you know, this leads into naturally the concept that
eat of my flesh. He also talks about the visual
similarities between uh iconic depictions of the crucifixion and the
(29:16):
shape of a mushroom. I feel like that's kind of
a stretch, but I mean, I get it, unless we
not forget that a mushroom does bear some resemblance to
a phallus male reproductive organiz thallus thallus in Wonderland, gotta say,
specifically circumcised. In most mushroom cases, Lewis Carroll is such
(29:39):
a creep. I just want to put that out there.
Did you know that part of his diary pages were
torn out and destroyed? It was death because they were
that it was too hot for TV. We'll never know.
There's also the idea of manna from heaven being the
bread of a life that comes from God himself itself.
(30:01):
Mm hmmm, yeah, yeah, that's that's something that mystifies a
lot of people, especially growing up with a belief system.
A lot of people, you know, think that manna is
something on a tree like an apple or you know,
a other fruit. Oraich, sure, yes, wasn't it like a
(30:29):
like the way you regained health in the Final Fantasy Games?
Wasn't that manna? I think? So? It was definitely magic
in Skyrom In most RPGs and games I play, manna
is yeah, your magic power which comes from this. I mean,
it's this idea that it's sort of a replenishing spiritual force,
that it can be squandered and regained or sort of
(30:50):
feeds your spiritual life force in some way. In magic,
the gathering, you have to tap your manna and make
use of all the land that you control to cast spells.
He blessed more of a Pokemon Now I'm kidding, I
actually want to get into that. If I've recently with
the kid, she's finally got the attention span for games
(31:11):
like that, and I'm I'm the one who just wants
to force her into it because I want to do it.
I need someone to play with. So we've been playing Pokemon,
but I'm gonna try to graduate her y magic the gathering.
Oh my gosh, Tyler's Okay, you guys will know who
Tyler is. He's another producer here. His kid is like
getting hard on the paint and with the Pokemon cards,
and both of us are just banking that he's gonna
be ready to play magic with us. Isn't really expensive? Yeah?
(31:35):
Is that? Though? We have like three decks, and you know,
I bought a couple of booster packs, but our decks
are pretty well masked. I think what happens is you
get tired of seeing the same cards over and over again,
or you need to like fit your trick your deck
out so that you, you know, can defeat someone that
has a super tricked out deck. But we digress and
we progress as well. So the uh, the weird thing
(31:58):
is all right. We know, we're fully conscious of the
fact that this sounds like maybe confirmation bias. Maybe this
guy just really wants to see it. Uh. But there
are numerous paintings of religious uh moments in the Old Testament.
In the New Testament, they clearly depict mushrooms. There's a
(32:21):
thirteenth century chapel in France. In there there's a clear
depiction of Adam and Eve and the next to a tree.
It's very Garden of Eden, but the tree is made
out of Emminita muscaria mushrooms and the serpents coiling around
the tree. It seems weird, right that this would be
(32:45):
the most arguably one of the most famous stories in
the Bible, Right, Yeah, the when Adam and Eve betrayed
God ate the fruit that it was like the only
thing you're not supposed to do appear that fruit. Well,
apparently it was. And there are you know, there are
a lot of beliefs that the fruit itself was knowledge
of like what I am? You know? I am Eve?
(33:08):
Have you tasted pure knowledge? Is that fruit? Well? In
this case, what if it was the key that the
key that unlocked all of the mysteries that's good. I
like that, especially compared to those quotes we were reading earlier.
I mean ingesting something, you know, like whether it's a
metaphor or a stand in for like enlightenment, but the
(33:30):
idea that maybe it's not, maybe it's an actual substance. Well,
yeah it's again. I go back to the invisibles because Ben,
thank you again for introducing me to that. But the
there's a substance in there, right that allows access to
a higher level of some sort in it, and it's
some kind of hallucinogen. It's like an where the guy
(33:52):
likes the homeless guy who kind of takes him on
as a real kid. He like smokes something, and then
all of a sudden they're like through the looking glass. Yeah, this, uh,
this idea is you know, um, this idea exists on
several different levels, metaphorical literal. As you can see, it's
(34:14):
open to interpretation, which brings us to some of the cons.
Not very con, not dragon con, comic con. Yeah, so
many cons in this case. One big con is that
all major scholars rejected Allegro's idea, and this guy's a legit,
a legit scholar. His mentor was like man what are
(34:39):
you doing, buddy? And the publisher who published it was like, ah,
we shouldn't have gotten involved. So the full text is
available online, The Sacred Mushroom in the Cross. You can
read it. Uh, you can read it online. It has
its own internal argument, it's own internal logic rather, but
it makes certain jumps assumptions that leave m for criticism
(35:01):
and invalidation, just like the guy wrote Chariots of the
Gods Eric von danikin it's easy for people to see
what they want to see when they look at ancient
writing and ruins. That's why, you know, in the beginning
of the show, we talked about how even the most
well read erudite people will disagree on the purpose or
(35:22):
the intention behind an ancient thing that they found the
flotsam and jetsam of the world, because many times there's
not another human or a piece of writing that will
will come out and give you a definitive answer. So ultimately,
like a lot of things, you're left with your own
interpretation or the interpretation of somebody who's studied it for
a long time. But but, but, but, but there's a
(35:45):
big butt. It is certainly true that many religions have
had relationships with psychoactive substances. Oh yes, and we will
wade into those psychedelic waters when we get back from this.
(36:06):
Feel like, out of so many shows that we've done,
this would be the one where we were just inexplicably
paused for a psychedelic guitar. There we go. You're tuned
into stuff they don't want you to know. Just just
keep looping that in the end. It so so We've
(36:27):
got some examples of different hallucinen's playing a role in
different religions, not just uh, not just in the abramaic
stuff that Allegro is talking about, but around the world.
In book nine of the classic Hindu text to the
rig Vada of this pressed juice called soma is mentioned
as something that was drunk by priests, and some sort
(36:49):
of visionary state is reported when you when you ingest
this stuff, um like this realm where happiness and joy
and all kinds of things just kind of combine, all
the good positive things combined. And it's also where longing
wishes are fulfilled. And some people believe that sola could
have been a psychedelic mushroom, maybe even amanita our Gordon
(37:12):
Wasson is a scholar who held this opinion, and in
Foot of the Gods, Terrence mckinna says that a more
likely candidate for soma, due to its better efficacy at
inducing psychedelic states, is a different mushroom, the Psilocybe cobenses.
This is a mushroom that can grow in cow dung
in certain climates, which may explain why the cow has
(37:33):
gained such a sacred status in the Hindu tradition. But
other academics claim that soma was cannabis. You know, and
I've actually had someone make soma for me before, but
it was not a hallucinogen. It was just this relaxing route.
There's also a pharmaceutical drug called Soma that's like a
(37:54):
muscle relaxer or like an antipsychotic. I want to say,
oh wow, I think out as Huxley right, uh references
Soma the Brave New World. You just to confirm what
I said before. Soma is in fact a drug on
the market called keras so prod all um and its
brand name or Soma or vana dem And it's a
muscle relaxer that can block pain to the nerves. So
(38:16):
you might take it if you have a skeletal muscle issue,
back injury, or the like. I just think it's interesting
this term has persevered over the years. Uh yeah. And
in addition, there were other examples. The blue lotus flower
was worshiped by the ancient Egyptian civilization, and it's now
believed that this flower had some psychoactive properties itself, maybe
a little naturally occurring d MT. We've we saw that
(38:38):
in our exploration of d MT. Right, there are tons
of plants that just contain it. I yes, to everyone
who's writing to us about d m T, we do
have uh an existing at least a video or two
on it. Again, dimethyl trip I mean, don't do drugs,
even though d MT naturally occurs in trace amounts in
your own brain. But don't worry about that. Just keep
(38:59):
on and keeping on. And there are mushroom cults in
Mesoamerica dating back to at least a thousand b c uh.
These are indicated by mushroom stone effigies found in the
Guatemalan Highlands. In addition, frescoes from Central Mexico also show
signs of mushroom worship. Then we get to these things
called mystery religions. Matt that's right. The Lucinian mysteries were
(39:24):
initiation ceremonies held every year for the cult of Demeter
and Persephone and ancient Greece. And there was this drink
called Kaikon and it was consumed, which the Iliad says
was made up of barley, water, herbs, and goat cheese.
That sounds disgusting. In the Odyssey, however, the character Searcy
(39:45):
adds a magic potion to it, and some people have
speculated that the barley used in this drink was parasitized
by ergot that's a fungus that it is believed to
be responsible for intense experiences people reported during these mystery
initiations and rituals, and ergot contains ergotamine, which is a
(40:07):
precursor to l s D. You've also maybe heard about
this as a proposed cause for uh sat almost fire
and for the Salem witch trials yea, and all kinds
of other vampire panics throughout the United States history. And
just to put this out there, I've said it before
and I'll say it again. Go see the Witch, one
(40:28):
of my favorite last year. In my opinion, this plays
a part and that it's up for debate. But cool.
Don't you mean the Witch? The it's titling is really cool.
It's like two vs. What is that like to live deliciously?
Yep black. Oh, we haven't spoiled it, but we hope
(40:50):
we've wetted your appetite for it. Right to us. Let
us know what you think about this movie, because we
will literally sit around off air and talk about it.
Actually saw it with co worker and fellow podcaster Lauren
Vogelbaum of food Stuff Fame. Uh and but when it
was over, we were both just kind of sat there
looking at each other like what we saw something we
(41:12):
weren't supposed to see. I watched it alone in my
house in the dark, with headphones on, and I was
unnerved in in the most spectacular way. I like to
play it while I exercise. Just watch the Witch while
you work out. Yeah, that in the shining mm hmm,
it just motivates. I get it. I got it. Well,
(41:34):
Well that's we don't want to get too deep into
the off air stuff. But yes, the which is completely
worth your time. So here we are with a cursory
examination of this theory. Now this make no bones about it.
This is very controversial. Some indeed found allegros exploration offensive,
(41:58):
but it is at this point still an exploration only.
It's completely possible that psychoactive substances have played crucial roles
in numerous religions. We know they have. We know they
have ayahuasca, for instance. However, if this specific mushroom did
play a role in the formation of fertility cults that
(42:19):
later led to the Abramaic religions, and if the priest
of the time really did manufacture Jesus Christ as some
sort of metaphor or code for these mushrooms, these plants,
and these rituals, then they clearly failed to preserve their
original meaning, because, as h No I think you pointed
(42:39):
out earlier, the vast majority of Christians today do not
believe this idea. And if preservation of these mysteries was
the key, wouldn't the priest have wanted people to know?
Unless that is of course, the Catholic Church has a few,
very very well kept secrets, more than we suspect up
(43:01):
their sleeves, which I would be I'm I would be
very surprised. But it's true. The Catholic Church has a
lot of SECRETSU buddy, that was about to say, they've
got like whole rooms that are just for secrets, right,
especially fitted to house various shapes and flavors of secrets.
Just to be fair here, I think if these Mystery
(43:21):
Religion cult leaders were trying to get all of this
stuff down in this incredibly complex allegory and they're doing
mushrooms on a consistent basis, I think I think, if
it's true, they did a pretty darn good job, because
I think they're a hat tip to you, Mystery religion priests,
(43:42):
for keeping it together with a head full of dreams. Right,
we want to hear from you. Have you have you
explored this idea yourself? What's what's your take on this?
Is this maybe um just just a fringe theory where
someone's out there to be out there on the fringes?
(44:03):
Is there something to it? Because again, those depictions, those
those paintings do have clear depictions of mushrooms. But is
this author reading too much into it or is there
something there? Well? I have a lot of thoughts on this.
You guys, do you listening out there? Do you have
any ideas or thoughts on this subject? I'm sure you do.
(44:26):
Have you tried one of these substances and experienced something.
Maybe don't write to us about that. Maybe that's a
bad idea. Is that a bad idea? Of course, it's
not a bad idea. We will not compromise your identity,
and if you wish, we will use an alias. Again,
don't do it. But if you've happen to find yourself
into that position where you've happened to do it, it
would be cool to hear about it. Okay, that's not
(44:47):
being irresponsible. We legally cannot tell you to do drugs,
but if someone you know does send us a message, yep,
this is probably the one. Speaking of messages, it's time
for shut at corners. So we received We received a
(45:09):
lot of feedback on our earlier episode called Lake City
Quiet Pills, which is about a Reddit mystery, and we
wanted to share with everyone some of the follow up
correspondence we had, which really surprised us. We have one
email that came to us through a blocker, meaning that
(45:31):
we were able to read it like a like what
you would read an anonymous post. We do not know
the identity of this person, which both means we cannot
verify it and we can't really make any any definitive decisions.
But we'd like to read it to you. Hello, stuff
they don't want you to know. Long time listener, though
(45:52):
never expected to be reaching out, especially not like this.
I had a bit of a personal revelation during your
episode referencing Lake City Pills. More than ten years ago,
I walked down on my father visiting a jailbait pornographic website.
I was aghast, and he screamed that we should never
speak of it, which made perfect sense to me. However,
I was terrified by what he was doing, so I
installed a key logger on his computer to determine if
(46:13):
this was accidental on his part or if I needed
to reach out to the authorities. The key logger generated
normal usage data and rather generic pornographic terms late at night,
only occasionally referencing the same jail bait site Old Guys
image Hosting, and then followed by what at the time
I felt was gibberish. I felt it was gibberish until
I heard you three read the same sort of code
(46:35):
out in the air on this podcast, and I immediately
broke out into a cold sweat. There is additional information
that ran home that my father was involved in this,
though some of it is two on the nose and
its identification of those close to me to be been
able to verify that information. Suffice to say, he went
on far too many business trips for one in his position.
(46:55):
I suppose I should also mention that the retire Prior
to nine eleven, my father was a ranger, later a
member of Delta. He came in during the eighties and
spent extended time doing ground operations in the Middle East.
I can still remember getting letters from him with every
word redacted aside from love Dad at the bottom. I
can also clearly remember Blackwater coming to recruit my father
post nine eleven, which was unnerving and unannounced. He refused
(47:18):
their offer. My father has also gone on at length
and private regarding the important role extra judicial killing serve
and keeping the relative peace in the world. He is
very much in needs of the many outweighs the needs
of the few. I will not be able to receive
a new replies to this mailbox. I also apologize for
not providing any proof to you, but it's an unnecessary
risk for me. Thank you. It is strangely comforting to
(47:38):
find out so many years later that my father is
a murderer and not a pedophile. Sometimes bad people need
a quiet pill so good people can sleep peacefully. Unsigned
wow wow, okay, are our second one, our second piece
of correspondence. Thank you to whoever that was um second
(47:58):
piece I think one reads and no need to comment
on that because it if you heard the episode, you
understand what an amazing artifact that is. And we really
do appreciate you sharing and shedding some light on this
system that we talked about that we we honestly uh
yeah that there's a lot to unpack there. Yeah, if
it is, you know, true, because we can't confirm or
deny any of it. Um, but let's move on. Our
(48:22):
second piece of correspondence comes from someone who signs their
letter T and it says to conspiracy. Hey, guys Dutch.
Milo was not part of a hit squad. He was
associated with a military contracting service. He would get people
in touch with a gentleman named Thomas Lahy, who, after
being removed from dp D, began recruiting for a company
(48:43):
called Alpha Omega Security Solutions. Milo was friends with Alpha
Omega because their operations in Central America lead to a
large amount of association in things that Milo had an
interest i e. Child porn, Milo helped recruiting some people
returned the favor. He did not die peacefully in his
philosophy of some people being evil so they just needed
(49:05):
to go was what ended up leading to his demise. Wow,
and our final shout out today is for Ron b Um.
He says, I've been a fan of the podcast since
the videos first started coming out, and I was zapped
temporarily off to a reality where it disappeared. When I
finally made it back to this reality, I discovered that
(49:26):
there was now an audio version, which I'm thoroughly enjoying.
That's good to hear. Thank you. Um. I just got
done listening to your Crime, Kidnapping and Organs the Red
Market episode, and I couldn't help but write about it.
During the parts of the episode where the Oregon Trail
was being discussed, I could not help but think of
the game the Organ Trail. The game has done faithfully
to the old school Oregan Trail graphics and play style,
(49:48):
but with zombies and a wood paneled station wagon in
lieu of the covered wagons. Even has the first person
you meet die of dysentery. Anything less would be a travesty.
That's my line, not ron By's keep up the good work.
I look forward to the notifications that pop up in
the app with each new episode. Oh man, he even
(50:08):
gets the notifications ap ron By. Thanks And speaking of
that reality with video, with lack of videos, what's what?
What's it? What it do? Guys, We're back in the game.
We're back in the game. I'm gonna expect more from
as soon. You can also find our first long form
documentary on the Georgia Guidestones that all three of us
(50:29):
put a lot of effort in uh for free on Amazon. Yeah.
If you go to Amazon, search guide Stones or etched
in the secret you could even search for Ben Bowling
if you want to, or No Brown and you'll find it.
And this concludes, but not our show. We are going
to head out and work on a number of things.
(50:53):
In the meantime, we want to hear from you. Do
you have information about this topic that you think would
illumine at your fellow listeners globally and unlimitedly? If so,
let us know. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter,
and Instagram, and you can write to us directly. We
are conspiracy at how stuff Works dot com.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff. They don't want you to know. Hello,
(00:25):
and welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name isn't They call me Ben? And you are
you that makes this stuff? They don't want you to know.
The gang's all here. The gang is all here. Uh.
And we're talking about something that a lot of people
have some very passionate opinions on. Yes, and this is
(00:46):
that old disclaimer that we make in front of every
podcast that has to do with anything religious or belief
system that is held tightly, and that is that we
are not telling you what to believe. Beliefs are your own. Yes,
there will be no poo pooing of faith right. Yes,
every single person has a right to their own personal
(01:08):
spiritual beliefs. Two posit otherwise would be at the very
least not well thought out correct. And it's kind of
the and and an athemat to what we do overall.
We're not here to tell you what's what. We're here
to look at some sides of issues and presented all
as fairly and balanced. Lee, is that a word is
(01:31):
American English. Everything is the word. I couldn't agree more so.
So we're gonna do is examine the history of one
particular religion and look at some you know, sides to
it that maybe aren't explored very often in your daily ongoings. Yeah,
it's very important. We're looking at this from an historical
academic perspective. We want to give a shout out to
(01:52):
a friend of the show, longtime listener, Henry h who
gave us this idea. You might remember him from our
previous episode on the FBI and counter culture and our
whole disclaimer thing. Basically, I feel like we're what we're
always implying is science hoologists in the audience. Oh man,
we left how a disclaimer on that last episode, though
(02:12):
it should have said don't do drugs. I know, speaking speaking, yes,
everyone listening, we discourage you from doing drugs. Uh, outrightly,
we cannot legally tell you that drugs are cool. Most importantly, though,
we were joking and we said we were on drugs
(02:33):
doing that. Oh yeah, that is very true. That was
a joke based on and I know you guys probably
know this, but we just had to say it again.
We were sleep deprived me less so than these fellas.
But we were playing off of that sleep deprived vibe
and writing that like a crazy snake to Valhalla. And yeah,
I hope everyone was aware of that. If not, and
(02:53):
you thought we were dosing up in the studio, I'm
here to tell you otherwise. And we we pre shade
all the emails we got. We had several people right
in and say, hey, just be sleep deprived all the time.
But NOL did a great job editing because the raw
form had some that was brutal. Yeah, yeah, slippery. So
(03:18):
here we are religion. The big are the earliest evidence
of religious ideas dates back hundreds of thousands of years,
all the way back to what is commonly called the
Middle and Lower Paleolithic periods. And just for some perspective here,
the average creature qualifying as human during this time would
probably disturb you if you just saw them walking on
(03:40):
the street today at least, wouldn't recognize them as human. Well,
even if they were wearing, you know, the clothes that
you yourself were wearing, you would you would notice some obvious,
obvious differences. And we don't want to get to too
caught up in this, but we did an episode on
(04:01):
what are called the like lost races of humanity, such
as Dennis Ouvans looking at differences between Homo rectus and
Homo sapiens, neanderthal and Homo Flunzis those the little uh
huh Yeah, the s have been found on on just
(04:21):
a very small patch of the world, and the current
the current debate is whether it was a true speciation
of some sort or whether it was just a community
condition for last a better word. So do check that
out if you haven't checked it out before. And there's
another there's another thing that's really interesting. You can hear. Uh.
(04:45):
You can hear our colleague and occasional guest on the show,
Joe McCormick, who works over It's Stuff to blow your mind. Uh,
when he and his co host Robert Lamb did an
episode on what is called the bicameral mind. This is crazy.
There's this theory that for part of human civilization, people
were not self aware the way you are now. Like,
(05:07):
if you're listening to this, you're thinking in your head,
maybe I am listening to this right, just just thought
that sentence right, and then the words that you hear
are translated into your own thoughts. Yeah, like an internal monologue.
I usually just see them visually as like letters in
a cartoon spelled out in the sky. You know. You
know that. I think it makes sense. You got the
(05:28):
you got the word balloons at that time. I think
I might be working with a tri cameral mind. So
what happens is the idea is that in in the
distant past of civilization, instead of hearing a voice in
your head and thinking that's my internal dialogue, that's my
internal dialogue, these early people would hear a voice and
(05:48):
they would think, holy crap, somebody's talking to me. Who
who is that in my head? Uh? What are you?
Why are you? Are there? Are you there? God? It's
me Kragner, you know? And uh. And one piece of
evidence for folks who believe this is the dramatically different
(06:11):
writing style of the Iliad. In the Iliad, classical scholars
amongst us will remember it was written somewhere between eight
hundred and seven b C or b C E, whatever
your favorite flavor is. Characters just sort of do things,
you know, and their motivations for a large part of
(06:32):
this story aren't kind of not present. Just something happens.
Things just happen, and since we know Greek culture very
quickly became a literature of consciousness. Uh. The Iliad is
sometimes seen as a great turning point, tipping point shout
out to Malcolm Gladwell uh, and a window back into
what they call the unsubjective times. And every kingdom was
(06:53):
at theocracy, and every man was the slave of voices
heard whenever novel situations occur. It's crazy. And religion it
might also predate humanity, depending on how you define religion. Right. So,
higher order mammals like cetaceans a new word, fancy word
(07:14):
for dolphins and whales that I just learned. Um, elephants, canines,
they all recognize the difference between a living thing and
a corpse. Hopefully you can as well. Uh. Millennia before
Homo sapiens existed, UM, its predecessors and parallels practiced some
form of ancestral recognition, which is an understanding that the
(07:35):
body was nothing but a vessel for the mind or
an idea. UM. And then archaeologists referred to apparent intentional
burials of early Homo sapiens from as early as three
hundred thousand years ago as evidence of religious beliefs, which
makes sense to me, right, Yeah, they realize that something
(07:55):
was there, there is a ritual going yeah, and then
it's not ritual occurs. Other evidence of religious ideas include
symbolic artifacts from the Middle Middle Stone Age sites in Africa.
But of course it's kind of tricky to interpret this,
you know, even even in the best case scenario, there's
(08:17):
room for interpretation, which is going to be important as
we explore this. Archaeological evidence from more recent periods is
less controversial. Number of artifacts from the Upper Paleolithic are
generally interpreted by scientists as representing religious ideas, meaning, in general,
a bunch really smart people who have spent their lives
(08:38):
figuring out what this stone shard means all got on
the same page and said, you know, cool, they knew
he was dead and they did a thing. Yeah. Well,
I suppose you could also argue that with enough experience,
you know, you might realize that a dead thing starts
to be gross and we should probably just get it
(08:58):
out of sight and out of my mind, or it
makes you sad, so you don't want to look at anymore.
So let's bury it in the hole in the ground.
Just Devil's advocating now that's a very you know, that's
a very good idea because you know, many animals, if
I remember their pure group or their mate or their
offspring dies, they just leave. I'm just like, all right,
(09:20):
but I like it here. I don't want to have
to look at dead, rotting grand mob for the rest
of you know, until for the foreseeable future. Let's let's
get her out of let's bury her in this upit.
Uh yeah, there are people who know there, there are
people who keep keep the remains of their loved ones.
And Faulkner has a great story about it, but of
(09:41):
course spoilers just in case for a hundred year old story. Yeah. Well, okay,
so we talked about these, Let's let's talk about like
examples of things that are clearly agreed to be religious.
The venus figurine are you know, a rather voluptuous, often
(10:06):
headless figure right certainly looks headless all of the examples
that I've seen, And there are elaborate burial rituals around
the world. There are cave paintings. But where did this
all come from? That's today's question. What prompted early humanity
or it's close predecessors and parallels is Moll said to
ascribe occurrences in the physical world to the winds and
(10:29):
the systems something unseeable. Is it drugs? Maybe? Well? Yeah,
what connected the either the bicamera mind, what connected the
parts of the brain that were previously not connected or
you know, was it just an evolutionary thing or was
it a chemical yeah? Or was it a social thing?
(10:50):
Is essentially we're not sure, like we as a species,
they're they're kind of still tossing this one around, spitballing.
But there's theories, right, yeah, yeah, the theories. Uh, let's
call one. We had to do it. D Oh, it's
not it's not funny for you guys yet because you're
(11:11):
listening and you don't. It's funny if you read it.
This is a theory that was put forth by Kelly
James Clark. He's a senior research fellow at Kaufman Interfaith
Institute at Grand Valley State University in Michigan. Oh, that
is a mouthful a lot. So he believes that humans
on the Serengetti who quote survived to procreate were those
who had developed what evolutionary scientists call a hypersensitive agency
(11:35):
detecting device or had h D. D becomes in a
fourth dimensional pun so in basic terms, in plain terms,
this meant that people who are more likely to survive
and reproduce, reproduce and pass on their experiences as well
as their genes were people who perceived that many other
(11:58):
things in the world external things have agency, and what
we mean by that is the ability to act of
their own accord. I have agency. Other things have agency,
like like what else? What would have agency? Animals walking
around might be the one of the first things you notice.
Secret agents other humans very didn't say human secret ages
(12:25):
like Perry the platypus on Phineas and firm he's a
secret agent with agency. It was also a platypus. I
gotta tell you, I don't know what that is. It's
a great show. It's like a kids show, but adults
like it too, alright, kind of like an Adventure Time thing. Right, Yeah,
it's a Disney show, but it's actually very clever. It's
very well written. Looking into it, do it while looking
(12:47):
into it, you'll you'll notice that this this had h
a d D. This understanding of how the world worked
facilitated this rapid decision making process that people had to
go through when they, for instance, are rustling in the grass.
So yeah, perfect, not so much stopping to reflect on
the transients of life as going holy smokes, lions do
(13:09):
what they want. I better run. I love that picture
of the some of the first humans understanding that that
lion can come over here and attack me at any time,
not just oh there's a lion, not just the grass moves,
but the grass moves because because so that's the kicker, right.
(13:32):
In addition to helping humans make rational decisions, survival based decisions,
had may have planted the seeds for what we know
as religious thought. Is it sort of like object permanence
where it's sort of like, you know, that thing will
always behave in that way, or that thing is only
behaving this way at this moment that I'm observing it. Yes,
(13:54):
So sort of like that if a tree falls in
the forest and you're not around, does it make us
sound or it's like if that if my mom is
there behind that bush, is she really not there? A? Yeah,
those are important distincts, That's what I'm saying, Like, well,
those are things that we come to psychologically as we
grow older. But it's important what we're talking about. You know,
(14:17):
in terms of evolution to make those distinctions that allow
us to actually learn from our mistakes. And it's absolutely crucial,
and it's one of those early developmental milestones, right like
when when your children are growing up, there are really
sensitive times in the early years when all of a
sudden they have that Eureka moment and you see it happen. Yeah,
(14:40):
I've seen it firsthand recently with my kids, especially with mirrors,
little things like that. We don't have to go into
it anyway, it's cool, but mirrors are weird, agreed. So
it wasn't just animals and other things moving around that
they ascribed agency to. They also ascribed it two things. Sure,
(15:01):
these rain drops now are falling on purpose on droptops,
but but yeah, things that absolutely don't have agency, like
drop tops. I don't know the first human raindrop. You
gotta make the top drop drop on its own drop top.
You got to apply something drops the top though, right,
(15:23):
So when the rainfalls, like something dropped that rain, what
was it? Yeah, like creation demands a creator? Yeah exactly.
I mean we're sitting in this room right now recording
this and wait, some someone is going to cut to
an ad break. It's me and we're back. But who
(15:47):
was it? It was? It was me? It was definitely
say it was. I gotta believe it. You don't see
it happen. That's the magic of podcasting. That part happens
away from your prying eyes, in the same way that
some sort of prime mover creator deity drops the drops
on the tops? What drop? But where does the drop
(16:12):
ultimately drop? Here's another theory about religion. What if instead
of a single individual um adaptation or Shamalan plot twist
and the story of humanity? But if it's not just
a story about things that apply to individuals reproducing, what
if religion is more of a group adaptation? Oh, I
(16:32):
could go along with that. This is an idea by
Robin Dunbar, and evolutionary psychologist and anthropologist at the University
of Oxford in the UK. His work focuses mostly on
the behavior of primates, including you know, things like baboons.
Why does he sound familiar to me? I think you know? No,
I don't. He is the famous proponent of something called
(16:57):
Dunbar's number. You made a video on this, Yes, we
talked about this on the show too. And it's the
idea that the human brain is physiologically limited. Think about
for anyone who works with computers extensively, think about the
physiological hardware limits of a computer. There's some software it
(17:20):
can't run. There are some things that it doesn't have
enough memory to store. Right. We run into this often,
as you can imagine daily. What was his number? Is
it a hundred something? It was two on four, six, five, three? No? No, no, okay, yes,
you're right, I think it's yeah, one, eight, eight, you know,
(17:43):
just keep it, Nate, it was it was a hundred
and fifty maybe fifty. Yeah, Humans that you can ever
really maintain a relationship with or see as a peer. Yes,
And then after see, as you know, the way that
you see your friends, you understand that they are the
main characters of their own story. And no matter how
(18:05):
close you are, you are a cameo. You are a
secondary character and everybody else's story. And after that number,
your brain is just incapable of understanding that those other
people past that, like number three hundred and forty seven
that you meet, is just the thing that takes the
(18:27):
garbage out, or the thing that walks by you on
the way to the bus every morning, the thing that
runs the justice department, the thing that you vote for.
You know, it's a scary idea. But Dunbar also applies
this thinking to your religion. Um, and that he says
that religion may have actually evolved as what he calls
(18:49):
a group level adaptation, which we mentioned before, religion being
a quote kind of glue that holds society together. Um.
We've also heard it as referred to as the opiate
of the masses. A similar yet antithetical notion to that
in an interesting way. Yeah, perfect, because it is like,
that's religion and ideology. A value system is a way
(19:10):
for number three seven to have something in common with you.
You know. Now it's not just the thing in the
justice department or the thing that cooks the food. It's
also the thing that believes what I believe. Yeah, yes, exactly.
And there's one more theory. It is one of the
most controversial theories. Do we need another disclaimer? Um, if
(19:37):
you if you're feeling uncomfortable at this point, stick your
fingers in your ears. No, yes, do that, and then
also rewind back to that part where we had a disclaimer,
and then come back here just to reassure yourself. Here's
the question, what if the original inspiration for some of
the world's most influential religions was ultimately not evolution, but hallucinogens. WHOA,
(20:02):
that's right, magic mushrooms, psilocybin, simple simon. Have we already
said psilocybin? Let's say it again. I think that's where
simple simon comes from, because it kind of sounds like psilocybin. Yeah,
how about those Mario make big bites God's flesh? Did
you make that last one out? I don't know. Is
that in the vernacular? It's a mushroom? Okay it is? Now.
(20:25):
I love mushrooms. Now when I say that, I mean
I love delicious mushrooms. Portobellos, you know, is trumpeters, the
weird ones, the weird, bulbous looking ones. But as we know,
when you grow them a certain way, certain species, they
can make the get a little funny, make you think,
make you feel a little funny, think a little funny,
(20:45):
see things a little differently. Here's where it gets crazy.
In his book The Sacred Mushroom in the Cross, an
author named John Marco Allegro argues that quote, our present
concern is to show that Judaism and Christianity are cultic
expressions of an endless pursuit by man to discover instant
power and knowledge. Granted the first proposition that the vital
(21:06):
forces of nature are controlled by an extra terrestrial intelligence,
these religions are logical developments from older, cruder fertility cults.
With the advance of technical proficiencies, the aim of religious
ritual became less to influence the weather and the crops
than to attain wisdom and the knowledge of the future. Essentially,
his argument is that modern religions, especially the Abramaic ones, Judaism, Christianity,
(21:30):
Islam of Islam, to a degree, sprang from these ancient
fertility cults. I gotta pause really fast here and just
point out that I've never thought in my head about
a religion as focusing on an extra terrestrial intelligence, as
an um an intelligence that is not on earth or
of Earth. Even when you say it that way, Isn't
(21:53):
that with like all religion, Yeah, it is, it is,
But I've never I've never used it. I've never used
the phrase extra terre real intelligence in that manner of
thinking about what God could be or is extraterrestrial has
become very specific in our time, at least in our
version of this language, it's become this kind of like
there's like hocum surrounding it to the point where you
(22:15):
can't use it in a way that people don't sort
of like turn their noses up at in a way,
you know what I mean. I don't know, like not
all people obviously, let people listen to the show and
we are, you know, into the that those explorations. But
the term extraterrestrial, which when it really just means not
of this earth, has become sort of a buzz phrase
that has negative connotations in terms of like its use
(22:38):
in veracity. But I think it's totally applicable to what
God is, to what religion is, to what these deities
actually are. They're totally extraterrestrials in many ways. Uh, In
many ways, people regardless of the particular religion, would say
this is something beyond us to some degree incomprehensible or dawned,
(22:58):
difficult to comprehend. Legrou goes on and he argues that
these ancient cults had knowledge of psychoactive drugs and plant form,
but they prevented this knowledge from becoming two widespread. They
were the shaman, you know, and they were the priests
and the quote is quote. These were the drug herbs,
the science of whose cultivation and use had been accumulated
(23:20):
over centuries of observation and dangerous experiment. Those who had
this secret wisdom of the plants were the chosen of
their God. To them alone, had he vouchsafed the privilege
of access to the heavenly throne. And if he was
jealous of his power, no less were those who served
him in the cultic mysteries. Theirs was no gospel to
(23:42):
be shouted from the rooftops. Paradise was for none but
the favored few. The incantations and rights by which they
conjured forth their drug plants, and the details of the
bodily and mental preparations undergone before they could ingest their God,
were the secrets of the cult, to which none but
(24:03):
the initiate, bound by fearful oaths, had access. That reminds
me of ayahuasca rituals like that takes the laborious thing
to create the substance that will take you on this
spiritual trip, and the and the ritual of ingestion is
as important as the substance itself. In times of war,
(24:27):
though the widespread social disruption, something happened this, these um
orally transmitted mysteries became difficult to transmit right. People were dying,
people were being imprisoned and slaved, slaughtered, and mass so
the priests had to write this knowledge down. And Allegro's
(24:49):
idea is that they wrote it down in an esoteric
or coded form that only another priest, only another initiate,
would recognize and be able to translate, essentially if you're
going to teach someone else about this. And Allegro argues
that the specific instance where this occurred the turning point
was the Jewish revolt of sixty six eight sixty six,
(25:13):
and we have a quote on that one too, Instigated
probably by members of the cult swayed by their drug
induced madness to believe God and called them to master
the world in his name. They provoked the mighty power
of Rome to swift and terrible action. Jerusalem was ravaged,
her temple destroyed, Judaism was disrupted, and her people driven
(25:34):
to seek refuge. With communities already established around the Mediterranean
coast lands, the Mystery cults found themselves without a central
fount of authority, with many of their priests killed in
the abortive rebellion or driven into the desert. The secrets,
if they were not to be lost forever, had to
be committed to writing, and if found, the documents must
(25:55):
give nothing away or betray those who had dared defy
the Roman author parties. So this need for coded communication
about the use of sacred plants and the performance of
sacred rituals. Then again, we cannot emphasize this enough, according
to this author. According to Allegro, it led to the
creation of a rabbi named Jesus. To tell the story
(26:20):
of a rabbi called Jesus and invest him with the
power and names of this magic drug, to have him
live before the terrible events that had disrupted their lives,
to preach a love between men, extending even to the
hated Romans. Thus, reading such a tale, should it fall
into Roman hands, even their mortal enemies might be deceived
and not probe farther into the activities of the cells
(26:43):
of the mystery cults within their territories. Oh, it sounds
so cool. Grand conspiracy, and this guy Allegro acknowledges that
his sub diffuge failed, as evidenced by the majority of
Christians who believe Jesus Christ was an historical figure, not
a metaphor for a psychoactive drug in some sort of
(27:06):
mystery religion. But what drug was it, you might wonder.
We have one last quote above all they forgot or
purged from the cult in their memories, the one supreme
secret on which their whole religious and ecstatic experience depended.
(27:26):
The names and identity of the source of the drug,
the key to heaven, the sacred mushroom, the fungus recognized
today as the amanita muscaria or the fly a garrick.
So let's take a moment, guys, what do you think
you want to do? Some pros and cons It sounds
(27:47):
like all prose to me. Speaking of all prose, his
argument hinges on pros or more specifically atomology. Yeah, we're
we're getting weird with the puns today. Uh. It relates
the development of language to the development of myths and
religions and cultic practices. So, for example, he relates mushrooms
(28:10):
to fertility or experience of the divine, So he's connecting
it to the phrase son of God. He's arguing that
since he's tracing this back to fertility cults, he's arguing
that the mushroom, by being an encounter with the divine,
was seen as you know, the offspring of God. And
(28:33):
in some ways it might be seen as like a
reproductive fluid, in other ways might be seen as the
flesh of this of this extraterrestrial divine creature. He believes
ancient evidence about the other phrases used to refer to
this stuff will bear out the argument, and he does
acknowledge that it's largely concerned with words and titles. And
(28:56):
he believes that only when we discover the nomenclature of
the sacred fungus within and without the cult can we
begin to understand its function and the theology behind it.
So you know, this leads into naturally the concept that
eat of my flesh. He also talks about the visual
similarities between uh iconic depictions of the crucifixion and the
(29:16):
shape of a mushroom. I feel like that's kind of
a stretch, but I mean, I get it, unless we
not forget that a mushroom does bear some resemblance to
a phallus male reproductive organiz thallus thallus in Wonderland, gotta say,
specifically circumcised. In most mushroom cases, Lewis Carroll is such
(29:39):
a creep. I just want to put that out there.
Did you know that part of his diary pages were
torn out and destroyed? It was death because they were
that it was too hot for TV. We'll never know.
There's also the idea of manna from heaven being the
bread of a life that comes from God himself itself.
(30:01):
Mm hmmm, yeah, yeah, that's that's something that mystifies a
lot of people, especially growing up with a belief system.
A lot of people, you know, think that manna is
something on a tree like an apple or you know,
a other fruit. Oraich, sure, yes, wasn't it like a
(30:29):
like the way you regained health in the Final Fantasy Games?
Wasn't that manna? I think? So? It was definitely magic
in Skyrom In most RPGs and games I play, manna
is yeah, your magic power which comes from this. I mean,
it's this idea that it's sort of a replenishing spiritual force,
that it can be squandered and regained or sort of
(30:50):
feeds your spiritual life force in some way. In magic,
the gathering, you have to tap your manna and make
use of all the land that you control to cast spells.
He blessed more of a Pokemon Now I'm kidding, I
actually want to get into that. If I've recently with
the kid, she's finally got the attention span for games
(31:11):
like that, and I'm I'm the one who just wants
to force her into it because I want to do it.
I need someone to play with. So we've been playing Pokemon,
but I'm gonna try to graduate her y magic the gathering.
Oh my gosh, Tyler's Okay, you guys will know who
Tyler is. He's another producer here. His kid is like
getting hard on the paint and with the Pokemon cards,
and both of us are just banking that he's gonna
be ready to play magic with us. Isn't really expensive? Yeah?
(31:35):
Is that? Though? We have like three decks, and you know,
I bought a couple of booster packs, but our decks
are pretty well masked. I think what happens is you
get tired of seeing the same cards over and over again,
or you need to like fit your trick your deck
out so that you, you know, can defeat someone that
has a super tricked out deck. But we digress and
we progress as well. So the uh, the weird thing
(31:58):
is all right. We know, we're fully conscious of the
fact that this sounds like maybe confirmation bias. Maybe this
guy just really wants to see it. Uh. But there
are numerous paintings of religious uh moments in the Old Testament.
In the New Testament, they clearly depict mushrooms. There's a
(32:21):
thirteenth century chapel in France. In there there's a clear
depiction of Adam and Eve and the next to a tree.
It's very Garden of Eden, but the tree is made
out of Emminita muscaria mushrooms and the serpents coiling around
the tree. It seems weird, right that this would be
(32:45):
the most arguably one of the most famous stories in
the Bible, Right, Yeah, the when Adam and Eve betrayed
God ate the fruit that it was like the only
thing you're not supposed to do appear that fruit. Well,
apparently it was. And there are you know, there are
a lot of beliefs that the fruit itself was knowledge
of like what I am? You know? I am Eve?
(33:08):
Have you tasted pure knowledge? Is that fruit? Well? In
this case, what if it was the key that the
key that unlocked all of the mysteries that's good. I
like that, especially compared to those quotes we were reading earlier.
I mean ingesting something, you know, like whether it's a
metaphor or a stand in for like enlightenment, but the
(33:30):
idea that maybe it's not, maybe it's an actual substance. Well,
yeah it's again. I go back to the invisibles because Ben,
thank you again for introducing me to that. But the
there's a substance in there, right that allows access to
a higher level of some sort in it, and it's
some kind of hallucinogen. It's like an where the guy
(33:52):
likes the homeless guy who kind of takes him on
as a real kid. He like smokes something, and then
all of a sudden they're like through the looking glass. Yeah, this, uh,
this idea is you know, um, this idea exists on
several different levels, metaphorical literal. As you can see, it's
(34:14):
open to interpretation, which brings us to some of the cons.
Not very con, not dragon con, comic con. Yeah, so
many cons in this case. One big con is that
all major scholars rejected Allegro's idea, and this guy's a legit,
a legit scholar. His mentor was like man what are
(34:39):
you doing, buddy? And the publisher who published it was like, ah,
we shouldn't have gotten involved. So the full text is
available online, The Sacred Mushroom in the Cross. You can
read it. Uh, you can read it online. It has
its own internal argument, it's own internal logic rather, but
it makes certain jumps assumptions that leave m for criticism
(35:01):
and invalidation, just like the guy wrote Chariots of the
Gods Eric von danikin it's easy for people to see
what they want to see when they look at ancient
writing and ruins. That's why, you know, in the beginning
of the show, we talked about how even the most
well read erudite people will disagree on the purpose or
(35:22):
the intention behind an ancient thing that they found the
flotsam and jetsam of the world, because many times there's
not another human or a piece of writing that will
will come out and give you a definitive answer. So ultimately,
like a lot of things, you're left with your own
interpretation or the interpretation of somebody who's studied it for
a long time. But but, but, but, but there's a
(35:45):
big butt. It is certainly true that many religions have
had relationships with psychoactive substances. Oh yes, and we will
wade into those psychedelic waters when we get back from this.
(36:06):
Feel like, out of so many shows that we've done,
this would be the one where we were just inexplicably
paused for a psychedelic guitar. There we go. You're tuned
into stuff they don't want you to know. Just just
keep looping that in the end. It so so We've
(36:27):
got some examples of different hallucinen's playing a role in
different religions, not just uh, not just in the abramaic
stuff that Allegro is talking about, but around the world.
In book nine of the classic Hindu text to the
rig Vada of this pressed juice called soma is mentioned
as something that was drunk by priests, and some sort
(36:49):
of visionary state is reported when you when you ingest
this stuff, um like this realm where happiness and joy
and all kinds of things just kind of combine, all
the good positive things combined. And it's also where longing
wishes are fulfilled. And some people believe that sola could
have been a psychedelic mushroom, maybe even amanita our Gordon
(37:12):
Wasson is a scholar who held this opinion, and in
Foot of the Gods, Terrence mckinna says that a more
likely candidate for soma, due to its better efficacy at
inducing psychedelic states, is a different mushroom, the Psilocybe cobenses.
This is a mushroom that can grow in cow dung
in certain climates, which may explain why the cow has
(37:33):
gained such a sacred status in the Hindu tradition. But
other academics claim that soma was cannabis. You know, and
I've actually had someone make soma for me before, but
it was not a hallucinogen. It was just this relaxing route.
There's also a pharmaceutical drug called Soma that's like a
(37:54):
muscle relaxer or like an antipsychotic. I want to say,
oh wow, I think out as Huxley right, uh references
Soma the Brave New World. You just to confirm what
I said before. Soma is in fact a drug on
the market called keras so prod all um and its
brand name or Soma or vana dem And it's a
muscle relaxer that can block pain to the nerves. So
(38:16):
you might take it if you have a skeletal muscle issue,
back injury, or the like. I just think it's interesting
this term has persevered over the years. Uh yeah. And
in addition, there were other examples. The blue lotus flower
was worshiped by the ancient Egyptian civilization, and it's now
believed that this flower had some psychoactive properties itself, maybe
a little naturally occurring d MT. We've we saw that
(38:38):
in our exploration of d MT. Right, there are tons
of plants that just contain it. I yes, to everyone
who's writing to us about d m T, we do
have uh an existing at least a video or two
on it. Again, dimethyl trip I mean, don't do drugs,
even though d MT naturally occurs in trace amounts in
your own brain. But don't worry about that. Just keep
(38:59):
on and keeping on. And there are mushroom cults in
Mesoamerica dating back to at least a thousand b c uh.
These are indicated by mushroom stone effigies found in the
Guatemalan Highlands. In addition, frescoes from Central Mexico also show
signs of mushroom worship. Then we get to these things
called mystery religions. Matt that's right. The Lucinian mysteries were
(39:24):
initiation ceremonies held every year for the cult of Demeter
and Persephone and ancient Greece. And there was this drink
called Kaikon and it was consumed, which the Iliad says
was made up of barley, water, herbs, and goat cheese.
That sounds disgusting. In the Odyssey, however, the character Searcy
(39:45):
adds a magic potion to it, and some people have
speculated that the barley used in this drink was parasitized
by ergot that's a fungus that it is believed to
be responsible for intense experiences people reported during these mystery
initiations and rituals, and ergot contains ergotamine, which is a
(40:07):
precursor to l s D. You've also maybe heard about
this as a proposed cause for uh sat almost fire
and for the Salem witch trials yea, and all kinds
of other vampire panics throughout the United States history. And
just to put this out there, I've said it before
and I'll say it again. Go see the Witch, one
(40:28):
of my favorite last year. In my opinion, this plays
a part and that it's up for debate. But cool.
Don't you mean the Witch? The it's titling is really cool.
It's like two vs. What is that like to live deliciously?
Yep black. Oh, we haven't spoiled it, but we hope
(40:50):
we've wetted your appetite for it. Right to us. Let
us know what you think about this movie, because we
will literally sit around off air and talk about it.
Actually saw it with co worker and fellow podcaster Lauren
Vogelbaum of food Stuff Fame. Uh and but when it
was over, we were both just kind of sat there
looking at each other like what we saw something we
(41:12):
weren't supposed to see. I watched it alone in my
house in the dark, with headphones on, and I was
unnerved in in the most spectacular way. I like to
play it while I exercise. Just watch the Witch while
you work out. Yeah, that in the shining mm hmm,
it just motivates. I get it. I got it. Well,
(41:34):
Well that's we don't want to get too deep into
the off air stuff. But yes, the which is completely
worth your time. So here we are with a cursory
examination of this theory. Now this make no bones about it.
This is very controversial. Some indeed found allegros exploration offensive,
(41:58):
but it is at this point still an exploration only.
It's completely possible that psychoactive substances have played crucial roles
in numerous religions. We know they have. We know they
have ayahuasca, for instance. However, if this specific mushroom did
play a role in the formation of fertility cults that
(42:19):
later led to the Abramaic religions, and if the priest
of the time really did manufacture Jesus Christ as some
sort of metaphor or code for these mushrooms, these plants,
and these rituals, then they clearly failed to preserve their
original meaning, because, as h No I think you pointed
(42:39):
out earlier, the vast majority of Christians today do not
believe this idea. And if preservation of these mysteries was
the key, wouldn't the priest have wanted people to know?
Unless that is of course, the Catholic Church has a few,
very very well kept secrets, more than we suspect up
(43:01):
their sleeves, which I would be I'm I would be
very surprised. But it's true. The Catholic Church has a
lot of SECRETSU buddy, that was about to say, they've
got like whole rooms that are just for secrets, right,
especially fitted to house various shapes and flavors of secrets.
Just to be fair here, I think if these Mystery
(43:21):
Religion cult leaders were trying to get all of this
stuff down in this incredibly complex allegory and they're doing
mushrooms on a consistent basis, I think I think, if
it's true, they did a pretty darn good job, because
I think they're a hat tip to you, Mystery religion priests,
(43:42):
for keeping it together with a head full of dreams. Right,
we want to hear from you. Have you have you
explored this idea yourself? What's what's your take on this?
Is this maybe um just just a fringe theory where
someone's out there to be out there on the fringes?
(44:03):
Is there something to it? Because again, those depictions, those
those paintings do have clear depictions of mushrooms. But is
this author reading too much into it or is there
something there? Well? I have a lot of thoughts on this.
You guys, do you listening out there? Do you have
any ideas or thoughts on this subject? I'm sure you do.
(44:26):
Have you tried one of these substances and experienced something.
Maybe don't write to us about that. Maybe that's a
bad idea. Is that a bad idea? Of course, it's
not a bad idea. We will not compromise your identity,
and if you wish, we will use an alias. Again,
don't do it. But if you've happen to find yourself
into that position where you've happened to do it, it
would be cool to hear about it. Okay, that's not
(44:47):
being irresponsible. We legally cannot tell you to do drugs,
but if someone you know does send us a message, yep,
this is probably the one. Speaking of messages, it's time
for shut at corners. So we received We received a
(45:09):
lot of feedback on our earlier episode called Lake City
Quiet Pills, which is about a Reddit mystery, and we
wanted to share with everyone some of the follow up
correspondence we had, which really surprised us. We have one
email that came to us through a blocker, meaning that
(45:31):
we were able to read it like a like what
you would read an anonymous post. We do not know
the identity of this person, which both means we cannot
verify it and we can't really make any any definitive decisions.
But we'd like to read it to you. Hello, stuff
they don't want you to know. Long time listener, though
(45:52):
never expected to be reaching out, especially not like this.
I had a bit of a personal revelation during your
episode referencing Lake City Pills. More than ten years ago,
I walked down on my father visiting a jailbait pornographic website.
I was aghast, and he screamed that we should never
speak of it, which made perfect sense to me. However,
I was terrified by what he was doing, so I
installed a key logger on his computer to determine if
(46:13):
this was accidental on his part or if I needed
to reach out to the authorities. The key logger generated
normal usage data and rather generic pornographic terms late at night,
only occasionally referencing the same jail bait site Old Guys
image Hosting, and then followed by what at the time
I felt was gibberish. I felt it was gibberish until
I heard you three read the same sort of code
(46:35):
out in the air on this podcast, and I immediately
broke out into a cold sweat. There is additional information
that ran home that my father was involved in this,
though some of it is two on the nose and
its identification of those close to me to be been
able to verify that information. Suffice to say, he went
on far too many business trips for one in his position.
(46:55):
I suppose I should also mention that the retire Prior
to nine eleven, my father was a ranger, later a
member of Delta. He came in during the eighties and
spent extended time doing ground operations in the Middle East.
I can still remember getting letters from him with every
word redacted aside from love Dad at the bottom. I
can also clearly remember Blackwater coming to recruit my father
post nine eleven, which was unnerving and unannounced. He refused
(47:18):
their offer. My father has also gone on at length
and private regarding the important role extra judicial killing serve
and keeping the relative peace in the world. He is
very much in needs of the many outweighs the needs
of the few. I will not be able to receive
a new replies to this mailbox. I also apologize for
not providing any proof to you, but it's an unnecessary
risk for me. Thank you. It is strangely comforting to
(47:38):
find out so many years later that my father is
a murderer and not a pedophile. Sometimes bad people need
a quiet pill so good people can sleep peacefully. Unsigned
wow wow, okay, are our second one, our second piece
of correspondence. Thank you to whoever that was um second
(47:58):
piece I think one reads and no need to comment
on that because it if you heard the episode, you
understand what an amazing artifact that is. And we really
do appreciate you sharing and shedding some light on this
system that we talked about that we we honestly uh
yeah that there's a lot to unpack there. Yeah, if
it is, you know, true, because we can't confirm or
deny any of it. Um, but let's move on. Our
(48:22):
second piece of correspondence comes from someone who signs their
letter T and it says to conspiracy. Hey, guys Dutch.
Milo was not part of a hit squad. He was
associated with a military contracting service. He would get people
in touch with a gentleman named Thomas Lahy, who, after
being removed from dp D, began recruiting for a company
(48:43):
called Alpha Omega Security Solutions. Milo was friends with Alpha
Omega because their operations in Central America lead to a
large amount of association in things that Milo had an
interest i e. Child porn, Milo helped recruiting some people
returned the favor. He did not die peacefully in his
philosophy of some people being evil so they just needed
(49:05):
to go was what ended up leading to his demise. Wow,
and our final shout out today is for Ron b Um.
He says, I've been a fan of the podcast since
the videos first started coming out, and I was zapped
temporarily off to a reality where it disappeared. When I
finally made it back to this reality, I discovered that
(49:26):
there was now an audio version, which I'm thoroughly enjoying.
That's good to hear. Thank you. Um. I just got
done listening to your Crime, Kidnapping and Organs the Red
Market episode, and I couldn't help but write about it.
During the parts of the episode where the Oregon Trail
was being discussed, I could not help but think of
the game the Organ Trail. The game has done faithfully
to the old school Oregan Trail graphics and play style,
(49:48):
but with zombies and a wood paneled station wagon in
lieu of the covered wagons. Even has the first person
you meet die of dysentery. Anything less would be a travesty.
That's my line, not ron By's keep up the good work.
I look forward to the notifications that pop up in
the app with each new episode. Oh man, he even
(50:08):
gets the notifications ap ron By. Thanks And speaking of
that reality with video, with lack of videos, what's what?
What's it? What it do? Guys, We're back in the game.
We're back in the game. I'm gonna expect more from
as soon. You can also find our first long form
documentary on the Georgia Guidestones that all three of us
(50:29):
put a lot of effort in uh for free on Amazon. Yeah.
If you go to Amazon, search guide Stones or etched
in the secret you could even search for Ben Bowling
if you want to, or No Brown and you'll find it.
And this concludes, but not our show. We are going
to head out and work on a number of things.
(50:53):
In the meantime, we want to hear from you. Do
you have information about this topic that you think would
illumine at your fellow listeners globally and unlimitedly? If so,
let us know. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter,
and Instagram, and you can write to us directly. We
are conspiracy at how stuff Works dot com.
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Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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