June 6, 2018 • 54 mins
It’s official -- after decades of dead ends, tantalizing theories and frustrating leads, justice has finally caught up with The Golden State Killer, also known as The Original Night Stalker. 72 year old Joseph James DeAngelo seemed set to quietly disappear from history, known only as a grandfather with a weird temper problem -- one of the cranky old men so common in neighborhoods across suburban America. But new DNA anaylsis leveraging the massive, growing databases in both federal and private hands led law enforcement down a trail they'd long thought had grown cold. Tune in to learn more about how justice finally caught up to the Golden State Killer.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M Hello,
(00:24):
welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my
name is no they call me. Then we are joined
with our super producer Paul Mission controlled decond But most importantly,
you are you. You are here, and that makes this
stuff they don't want you to know. This episode is
going to be an update on something. It's an update
that we hoped but never truly thought we would ever
(00:47):
have the chance to do. This is very much a
what a what a time to be alive? Sort of show.
You may recall long time listeners that a while ac
when was it Matt ma Mayen, we did an episode
on what is known as the original night Stalker or
(01:09):
the Golden State Killer, And in this episode we looked
at the current research and investigation into those at the
time unsolved crimes, the various theories, the various leads that
were taken up and later rejected by law enforcement and
(01:29):
armchair investigators on specialized crime forums on Reddit, all over
the internet, and including some of the authors who made
it their life's work to hunt down this killer. Today, however,
we're telling a very different story. Today. We are making
it official. After decades of dead ends, tantalizing theories, and
(01:52):
frustrating leads, justice may have finally caught up with the
Golden State Killer. But four you listen to this episode
if you would like a deep dive into the crimes
and the past investigation of the crimes of the Golden
State Killer, or East Area Rapists as they were also known,
(02:12):
U do check out our episode from mayen. We'll wait.
Oh man, that's a good one. Wasn't it kind of
a bummer? Really? Yeah? But news It was a lots
of lots of avenues to investigate, but we we get
a happy ending. Here is what is? What was? What
(02:34):
this amounts to? Right, which it's there's definitely a light
at the tunnel at the end of the tunnel. That's
a better turn of phrase. We'll see, we'll see, we'll see.
We hope we as a society make it to the light.
Quick background for everybody who just sat quietly the way
the three of us did in the studio while your
(02:54):
fellow listeners were checking out that episode from at least
ninete six California was plagued by a serial break in artist,
a burglar, later a rapist, and then finally a murderer
who was known by several different names and was believed
to be several different people for a time, the vizalea ransacker,
(03:14):
the Diamond not Killer, the Golden State Killer, the East
Area rapist, and also the original night stalker, nowadays more
often referred to as the Golden State Killer. I believe yeah,
because the Golden State Killer encombs as all of these
different crimes breefe and eventually, in the course of their investigation,
law enforcement and independent investigators began to connect the dots
(03:38):
and they said, we believe this is all the work
of a single individuals, so not copycatters, not a group
operating in concert, although we do have a bit of
a rabbit hole about that. But a single man, a
man who might never be apprehended until that is on
April two, thousand eighteen, when authorities announced the arrest of
(04:00):
a suspect named Joseph James D'Angelo, Jr. A seventy two
year old retired police officer. He was rested on eight
counts of first degree murder based on DNA evidence, and
more than forty years since his criminal career began, the
original night stalker would finally maybe be held accountable. This
(04:24):
is the accumulation of countless of hours of police work,
contributions and analysis by thousands and thousands of people, several
of whom are doubtlessly listening to this podcast today, and
in a very real sense, a lucky break. So so
what happens. Can we look back over some of these
original crimes? I think we must, Well, here are the
(04:46):
facts that maybe we start with the Vasalia ransacker, and
we do have to say we are only at this
point talking about documented crimes. As you've seen in previous shows,
is unfortunate fact in the US that many, many, many
crimes do not get reported. Do you think that because
of what's come to light that that we'll find out
(05:07):
about more or do you think that's unlikely? You know, ideally,
ideally there wouldn't be more to fined, but realistically there
are probably some. It's just a safe thing to guess.
The question then becomes, if we're talking about pre nineteen
seventies stuff, were the authorities at the time collecting DNA?
(05:30):
Does anything remain? You know, so it's it's tough, but
who knows. Also, if it turns out we should say
D'Angelo has not been convicted yet. But if it turns
out that he is uh, that he is convicted, and
he already from what we understand, confessed to several things,
he may just go on and start naming more names
(05:50):
and instances because he is frankly at the end of
his life one way or the other. Yep. Has can
often happen with these kinds of lega. He crimes, yeah,
unfortunately well, the Visalia ransacker was a master burglar and
break in guy, believed to be responsible for more than
one crimes. Again, only the ones that we know of.
(06:13):
The first ransacking that was recorded was on Tuesday, March
nineteenth four, and one thing that stood out to people
was that he passed over a lot of high value items,
a lot of electronics, a lot of keepsakes and stuff,
and instead he stole about fifty bucks worth of coins
from a piggy bank. That's what That's what he took.
(06:35):
Clearly something else at work here other than desire for
monetary gain right right, because there there are pawn shops everywhere.
He could have taken something and then pawned it, uh
and made much more than fifty dollars. Is the keyword here, Ransack, right,
because this is about going through people's private things. Yes,
(06:57):
just so. He was tearing houses of park, knocking over furniture,
cutting stuff up, going in the closets, throwing out things.
But he would only actually steal a few small items trinkets,
cuff links, keepsakes, keepsakes. And he would also probably the
creepiest thing you would do is he would arrange items
(07:18):
and what appeared to be almost a ritualistic fact fashion,
you know, like women's underwear. He did steal weapons. He
stole six weapons. He was prolific. He committed multiple break
ins in the same area on the same day and
he also set a record for that too. Yeah, he
broke into twelve different homes in a single day on Saturday,
November and at this point, other than the strange arrangement
(07:45):
of items, it looks like a really creepy burglar, right
until that is, on September eleven, a man who is
strongly believed to be the rand Sacker broke into the
home of one Claude Snelling at five thirty two Whitney Lane.
It's now South Whitney Street if you're familiar with the neighborhood.
(08:07):
Claude caught someone trying to kidnap his daughter in their
cardboard and this still a named person shot Claude twice
and Claude died and the assailant fled. This became the
first known murder linked to what we call the original
night stalker. And this murder prompted him to leave town.
(08:29):
So he's escalated already from ransacking to child snatching. Yeah,
it seems that it seems like that was the course.
It's it's pretty safe to say that if the daughter
had been successfully kidnapped, she would have at very least
been assaulted. And then the murder, though was a byproduct
of being caught. Yes, the murder was more than likely
(08:51):
a moment of panic to or perhaps in some sense
meant to erase a witness. It's probably not the primary intense,
but the story of this man is one of escalations.
I just wanted to point that out. And it's interesting
that this this particular killing. I wonder if it's like
what kind of gave him the taste or something like that,
(09:11):
and he's like, maybe I want to add this to
my repertoire. You have to wonder too, because we find
often in serial murders, like in our previous episodes on
Uncaught serial Killers, we do see this escalation. You know,
someone starts with fires, someone starts with mutilations right or
(09:33):
running by and slashing someone or choking somebody, and then
it builds and builds. But this killer was at this
point still lucid enough to realize the dangers if they
chose to stay in Visalia. So in mid nineteen seventy
six he moves to Sacramento, and that's where he progresses
(09:58):
fully from burglary and murders, perhaps unintentionally, to sexual assault.
So around June six, our person here of interest moved
to Sacramento, and this is when he's really progressing from
burglary into sexual assault. Although you know he he originally
(10:19):
targeted these women who were alone. Usually that's what what
his victim would look like. Um, they would be in
their homes, sometimes they would be with their children, and
he would later prefer couples. Somehow it switched from just
a alone victim that he could attack to perhaps, like
(10:39):
we were saying, the escalating thrill and whatever he was
getting out of this escalated to where he needed to
have a partnered couple, to where there is a male
and female usually And perhaps some of that is tied
into his perception of the unattainable nature of someone already
in a relationship. Perhaps some of it is is a
(11:01):
power move on his on his part to someone else
witness helpless. It's spooky and disturbing stuff. He is standard procedure,
smacked of prior training. He's weren't He's may have been
crimes of passion when he got there, but he did
(11:21):
a lot of homework. He did extensive research. She would
typically break in through a window and awaken someone with
a flashlight and a gun so they can't clearly see
him as well, and then buying the victims, blindfold them,
gag them with towels from their own house, and he
would typically force the female victim to tie up her
(11:43):
male companion before he tied the female victim up himself.
And he operated that way for from for about a
year June to seventy six to May seventy seven, and
he had a three month gap and then he returned
in sacrament so in other counties he had another three
month gap, and then he was operating in other counties
(12:05):
until nineteen seventy nine, and from what the timeline shows,
from June seventy six to July nine, he committed overall
fifty one crimes as the East Area Rapist. As the
Original night Stalker, he committed seven known crimes with multiple homicides.
(12:29):
That marks his move from break ins to rape to murder.
So stay tuned. After a brief break for our sponsor,
we will return and give you a grim introduction to
the man known as Joseph James D'Angelo Jr. So there
are a lot of great timelines that have come out
(12:50):
so far, a lot of them pretty brief, but we
stumbled upon one on Reddit that been found and we're
just gonna kind of go over this and hit some
of the high points and low points in this man's life. Yeah,
you can find You can find this on the East
Area Rapist Original nights Stalker subreddit posted by a user
(13:13):
named Sacred Geometry. And I know it might sound, uh
maybe a little cursory for the three of us to
be citing this sort of source, but this person has
done their homework extensively and we found quite a quite
a thorough, robust timeline here that follows from the birth
(13:37):
of D'Angelo to the arrest. He was born November eight
in Bath, New York. Yeah, and just to jump on
there with what Ben was saying, I linked up some
of these dates just as effact checking exercise, and the
Sacramento B has much of the same exact stuff on it.
So and shout out to the Sacramento B. They've been
(13:57):
really leading the charge on reporting here. So he's born
ve Then in nineteen sixty four he joins the Navy.
He enlists there, and he goes into naval training that
same year in San Diego. And this is where he
would have, as part of his training, learned a lot
(14:18):
of knots that the average person would not would either
not be aware of or would not be able to
do on command. Specifically, like that diamond knot. Specifically like
that diamond knot, Matt, is that like a sheepshank was
at some kind of like specialized sailing knot. Yeah, Yeah,
and it was found at several of the crime scenes.
(14:38):
I knew that, but I just you know, is it
is it a particularly tricky one? Not tricky, just you
wouldn't you wouldn't think to make that way It's super
interesting too when you you know, it's such a long
timeline of crime and now we have um a person
to associate with it. This timeline that we're looking at
has photographs of him through about his life, which is
(15:01):
really interesting just to visually trace his you know, kind
of progression and think about what he was doing at
the time that those photos were taken. UM. So he did,
in fact serve in the Vietnam War. UM. And then
in August of nineteen sixty eight, he goes to Sierra
College is in Rockland, California, and fascinatingly got an associate
(15:22):
degree in police science that that could come in Andy
m Yeah, he also attends later after the year. After
he graduates with an associate degree in police science, he
goes to cs U and Sacramento, where he spends a
year earning a bachelor's in criminal justice. And the same
(15:43):
year he gets out of there, in nineteen seventy two,
he has UH. He spends the next approximate year UH
sometime during nine and nineteen seventy three, he completes an
internship in the Roseville Patrol This this is interesting because
at the time, if we look at the context, many
(16:05):
police officers and law enforcement professionals did not have college
education or higher education to this degree, not to mention
an internship. So it's somewhat strange that will see this
as his career continues. It's somewhat strange that he goes
to smaller police forces. You know, he could have maybe
(16:26):
written a ticket to Los Angeles or Chicago, but for
some reason, he stayed in these in these smaller areas. Uh.
The same year wherein we believe he completes his internship,
he joins the Exeter Police Department on their burglary task
force in May of nineteen seventy three. May of nineteen
(16:48):
seventy three is also when experts believe the Vassalia Ransacker
crimes began. Yeah, the burglary crimes. Hey, I'm on a
burglary task force. In such a trope in fiction, right,
like the what was that movie about the crime scene
photographer Nightcrawlers? Who who starts perpetrating crimes? Does he not? Really?
(17:14):
Kind of yes, he does, that's true. He does. That's
very true. He at first it starts off that he's
he's looking for the big scoops and then in order
to get them, he kind of starts behaving in a
in a monstrous way. He escalates, or like Dexter for example,
Not that it's like a good show exactly, but you
know blood expert who is also a serial or would
(17:38):
Jude Law from Road to Perdition be an example. I
don't wow, I don't remember. It's been a minute. What
was he what was his deal? I feel like we
may be on the verge of a spoiler alert. It's
okay if we if we say it okay, then it's okay,
all right. Just don't don't get Tom Hanks angry at
us for spoiling his movies. Road to Perdition spoiler coming
(17:59):
in three two one. Jude Law's character is a photographer
who is also killing people to get the best photographs
of crime scenes. Yeow, yeah, but this and it's a
solid film. If you haven't seen, Oh, it's coming back
to me. I haven't seen it since it was in
the theaters, but now I'm having flashes of it and
(18:20):
it was quite good. One thing to point out here,
in nineteen seventy Joseph was engaged and then he got
married in nineteen seventy three as well. If we're imagining
so he's got his professional life and he's also got
his personal life that's going on. So he's engaged. And
then three years later he gets married. At this in
the same year that the Vasilia ransackers, right, but he
(18:43):
doesn't marry the woman he was originally engaged to know,
he married someone different. And Uh, in seventy five, as
we said, Claude Snelling is murdered during the attempted kidnapping. Uh,
there's an attempted murder of an officer McGowan in December
of the same year when the police got close to
(19:03):
apprehending the rand Sacker. And then this is when not
only does the Ransacker disappear from Vizalea, but someone in
Sacramento begins committing the East Area rapist crimes. For d'angelo's part,
he has relocated to the Auburn Police Department. So again
(19:25):
these relocations, at least timing wise, begin to match up.
And then in nineteen seventy nine, he gets caught and
he's shop but not for any of these major crimes.
He gets caught shoplifting. It's a hammer and what was
the other thing, Oh it was it was not tape um,
But yeah, he got shop, got caught shoplifting small items. Yeah, specifically,
(19:48):
I know a hammer was one of the major things.
Was the kind of items that you maybe wouldn't want
a record of you having purchased. I don't know, it's
it definitely seemed a bit strange, specifically with that hammer.
But the police to apartment finds out because he is
actually found guilty of shoplifting and then he gets fired
from the Auburn Police Department in August of seventy nine.
(20:10):
And many people will tell you that there was a
slight pausing crime at that time. That's not entirely true
because in October of seventy nine, we know that there
was an attack that went wrong on the on the
E A R Side on what would be classified as
the original night Stalker crimes, and tried to break in
(20:30):
and assault and murder a couple, but he botched it. Then,
as the original night Stalker, there was the murder of
Robert Offerman and Deborah Manning in December of nineteen seventy nine.
The next month there's a pause. March of nineteen eighty
Lyman and Charlene Smith are murdered. In August, Keith and
(20:53):
Patrice Harrington or murdered uh at. During this time, D'Angelo
buys a home in a name borhood called Citrus Heights.
February one, woman named Manuela Whithoun is murdered, and then
to jump back into his personal life, his first child
is born in September one, another huge change in his life.
(21:14):
And then you see that there's a bit of a break,
a big gap here, um that happens after September one, right,
a five year gap in May of so the murder
before the child was Sherry Domingo and Greg Sanchez. In
July one, Matt, as you said, September one, D'Angelo has
(21:38):
his first child and in Los Angeles, but he wasn't
living there, was he His child was born in Sacramento.
And then, ma, as you said, radio silence for five
years at least as far as we know. In May
ninety six, another murder is associated with the original night Stalker,
that's Janelle Cruise. And in that same or in November, um,
(22:01):
he has his second child in Los Angeles, but did
he live there for an extended amount of time. It
seemed like he was sticking to the smaller areas well.
We know that the murders, at least the document of
ones appeared to have stopped at that time, and as
as as we look, he continues on for a while
to have a relatively normal life. Despite what some of
(22:26):
us might assume about about killers, and despite how we
would assume having a criminal record for shoplifting would screw
up your job prospects, he he seems to have continued.
He stayed working at the same place until retirement, the
save mart, which was I guess he was like a
loader or something in the in a distribution center, or
(22:46):
he definitely worked at the distribution center. And I'm assuming
after working that many years, he probably moved up the ladder,
but we don't have that information. Yeah, from August nineteen
eighty nine, he was working at that distribution center nol
mentioned in Ru's Belle, California, and he worked there until
what until last year. It's retirement age, so he was
(23:07):
settled in and everything seemed to indicate that this guy
would you know, retire and relative obscurity. He was living
with one of his daughters at the time and her husband,
so that would put him today at in the neighborhood
(23:27):
of seventy two years of age, and that would put
the assuming and there's a big assumption that's probably incorrect.
Assuming that all the crimes that occurred are the crimes
we know about h then that would put him at
a murder rate of twelve to thirteen people UHT, five
(23:47):
to fifty sexual assaults easily more than a d and
twenty homes broken into. Yeah, and that's, of course, if
he actually did all of these crimes, and that that's
a very good point to make. If, of course he
actually did all of these crimes. He's being charged for
several murders right now as we're recording this, but it's
not all of them. Well what's that based on? Guys? What? What?
(24:09):
What do we actually know? We'll answer what might be
the most important question in today's episode after a word
from our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy. This man
Angelo was associated with these crimes, not through a bunch
(24:32):
of people digging through micro fiche or hunting down old
leads alone. No, this man was apprehended due to a
lead they derived from d n A, a DNA database.
So one of the first questions is how did they
(24:52):
find this DNA because clearly, like in the nineties seventies,
for instance, they wouldn't have had the sophistication in terms
of technology to investigate this. You can find a loose
leaf notebook or something, but you wouldn't automatically be able
to pull that info off of it totally. And when
I first saw this case the story, I assumed that
(25:12):
they had a sample of his DNA that ended up
in one of these databases. But that's not quite how
it went down, is it. No, not quite. It turns
out that they took crime scene DNA which they had
had from the time of the crimes, and ran it
through various databases where all of a sudden, ding ding ding,
(25:33):
it showed a match to what would turn out to
be one on d'angelo's distant relatives U someone who was
who had their DNA in a public database. So let's
let's look at that arrest. Though it isn't until March
of this year as we record this Marchen that he
(25:53):
is identified as a suspect in these in these decade
old crimes via a public database. And what's strange about
it happening in two thousand eighteen for a lot of
people is the idea that WHOA and authorities would hold
on to this information for decades and not do anything
(26:14):
in DNA was just emerging as a criminal investigative tool,
and according to the experts, D'Angelo, as a former police officer,
would have probably, according to them, have known that this
thing was on the way or there was a possibility
(26:35):
at least. So when they when they started looking for this,
a lot of the stuff we read about says that
they found a match that was a distant relative. But
what does that mean. Oh well, it means that they
took what they did have as far as DNA evidence
from this killer, and they threw it into one of
these databases called g D match dot com, and they
(26:56):
found a fourth cousin of D'Angelo. Now they have no
idea at this point who D'Angelo is. They just know
that this DNA match matches this person at least in
some way, and this person had used this g e
D match program already and this the service. And then
they start looking through this person's family tree, this fourth cousin,
(27:18):
and then they start trying to match up people's backgrounds
from that family tree, and does anybody match up. Do
they live in Vassilia around this time, Do they live
in Sacramento around this time? Um? And they start picking
out a few people to look at, and they eventually
come upon Mr D'Angelo and uh, it's a really strange
(27:39):
process how that I just happened to work. Remember on
the the Here's Where It Gets Crazy episode, we talked
about this whole thing, and there was a story about
this very same process that led them to like a
false positive. That can happen too, because they they got
a hit, but the guy didn't match criteria for the
crime they were trying to to solve. So they looked
(28:01):
at like his son or something like that, and it
matched a little more, and so they went with that
and then ended up not being Yeah, well, in this case,
the investigation is fascinating because they got this match with
the fourth cousin. Then they actually start looking at this
guy and they start staking out his house for like
six or seven days, yeah, exactly, and they're looking at
his trash. I mean, they don't they don't state specifically
(28:24):
how they got the DNA samples, but they do say
it was probably from a container that he had drunken,
he had taken a drink out of, and they would
watch him come in and out of his house, and
they you know, then they took that DNA sample and
they tested it with the other DNA that they had
from the previous case, and they went, oh, boy, guess what.
(28:45):
Somehow we got the guy. It's him. Yeah, And the
match was not something that was contested. We can't be
more clear about this. It wasn't It wasn't like, oh,
to go to indicator, let's see. I know this. This
was something that had been under investigation in a while,
(29:05):
for for some time. A criminologist in Contra Costa County,
way back in two thousand and one had linked two
sets of cases to the same individual thanks to DNA evidence.
They just didn't know who it was. And that was
the East Area rapist and the original night stocker. Yeah.
(29:26):
And to to the point that that you made knowl
when they get the d n A, it led them
to a number of people, right, and they had to
separate timeline. So they had to spend this time surveilling
this guy and going through his trash. Most likely, although
they don't say it that way because I don't think
(29:48):
they want that image of law enforcement to be you know,
they want to be presented as people digging through your trash.
But I will but and they you know, they're there
is a beyondent likelihood, beyond likelihood that they have the
(30:09):
right guy. This is the US, so technically he's innocent
until proven guilty. Digging through trash is just good police work.
I would agree, I would agree. And this this is
where the story stands. As the story emerges, we're going
to hear new updates. Will we can go ahead and
(30:30):
call it. We're inevitably gonna hear I think the conviction
of this criminal um. On a side note, the neighbors
said the same things that you would hear about serial
killers in works of fiction. They said he was kind
of a recluse. We didn't think he was a killer
or a monster. They did say he was prone to
(30:50):
violent public outbursts. Did you catch that? But but somehow
you've maintained it and kept it under control for years
and years and years after his children were born, except
for one case right after his first daughter. Again, that is,
unless more stuff emerges, like we of pointing out earlier,
Unless it comes out that he is implicated and other stuff,
(31:14):
I would be at this point, I would be surprised
because if there were DNA leavings from other crimes, they
would have also pinned on those databases. Right, because those
databases work together pretty well. And this leads into the
larger implication, which is a big question for us today.
(31:37):
What what does this mean for not just the like
the DNA of criminals and these human monsters like serial killers,
but what does this mean for you right now listening
your DNA. We talked a little bit about this with
an excellent postum in our community page. Like you mentioned, Nolan,
here's where it gets crazy. And sometimes the three of
(32:00):
us are usually on the same page about a lot
of things. I mean, we get along famously, but we
might have some differing opinions about DNA testing, like a
number of people, and this is just personally. I've held
off on some DNA testing due to privacy concerns. Yeah,
that's a good call, and that seems to be a
sentiment shared by many. Oh yeah yeah, and No, you
(32:24):
had earlier mentioned that you had experience with DNA testing
from our earlier show Stuff of Life. I did, and
I kind of just threw myself into it like a
big dummy, thinking this will be cute and it's free,
so why not. Um kind of regretting it a little
bit after digging into some of this stuff. A little
bit more, not that I have anything to hide that
I'm worried about, you know, the government making a clone
(32:46):
army based on my pristine DNA. I would do it
if I could, Buddy, that's really sweet. But but here's
the deal. Yeah, what we found with this case is
that it doesn't even matter if you have or have
not submitted your DNA. Oh exactly. That's that's why I
said earlier. When I first read the details of this,
I'm like, oh, I guess he did one of those,
and then they got access to it somehow. Now it
(33:08):
was somewhere way down the line you can't control. We
haven't even met our fifth cousins. Ben and I did
an episode about lineage in our other show, Ridiculous History,
and the idea of knowing personally a fifth cousin was
sort of absurd, well at least for for us, for
our Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant between between us
um Ben, I think you said you were aware of
(33:29):
some fifth cousins, but you certainly aren't, you know, taking
in a movie of a weekend. Yeah, I come from
a strange place, but but yeah, it met. You make
an excellent point that in other cultures in place around
the world, it's quite common to know your extended family
or even live with them, or you know, maybe you're
all in the same town or the same region. Uh.
(33:50):
Not a lot of people here in the US are
that close. And there are these implications that you mentioned.
It's not somebody, it's not always going to be case
of someone signing up directly. We know that the military,
as we mentioned earlier, will take DNA samples. Now, if
you are involved in law enforcement on the wrong side,
(34:13):
if you get caught, then your DNA will go into
a system. But the implications are that even if you say,
like let's say Matt mayis you as an example. Okay,
let's say that Paul uh doesn't has never never been
to jail because he's a paragon of of upstanding young
(34:37):
gentleman this. And let's say he was also never in
the military or something like that. And let's say he
also additionally never signed up for something like twenty three
and meter ancestry dot com or anything like that. If, however,
one of Paul's relatives signs up for this thing, or
if one of his relatives joins the right kind of organization,
(35:01):
or if god forbid, they get in trouble with the law,
then they will end up in the system, which means,
by extension, he has ended up in a system whether
or not he agreed to be there. And in this case,
it would be probably metadata on Paul. It wouldn't actually
have his DNA or anything, right, I mean, that's how
this whole thing would work. It's just you're in the
(35:23):
system now because you are related in some way. Right. Yeah,
And we talked a little bit about how this data
is supposed to be made anonymous. I can't pronounce it.
Can you help me out? Anonymized? There we go, hold
in one. Yes, anonymity, anonymity my enemies anonymity and enmity
(35:46):
and enmity, Uh means many things to me if we're
just going to finish the poem. But the the strange
thing here is that we you know, we can't help.
But think of the comparison to big data and Facebook
or the so called frictional list sharing. Right. We have
(36:07):
friends who have never been on Facebook and never want
to be for various reasons of their own, but because
they know us, or because if you have friends like this,
they know you. Facebook has a shadow profile on them.
And again for anyone who heard our Cambridge analytic episode.
Facebook doesn't like us to call them shadow profiles. It
(36:28):
sounds spooky. Yeah, but literally everybody else except for Facebook
calls them shadow profile. What what their internal nomenclature is
for it, I don't know. Maybe they call them like
headstart profiles, fun pages, fun pages, party profiles. So right now,
there's no escaping that this this stuff has made life
(36:52):
massively better or at the very least provided some sense
of closure for people who are survivors of the TEMs
of these horrific atrocities. But that doesn't mean that we
should forget the implications. At least that's what a lot
of critics are saying about this stuff. Once you give
that data way, you yourself have little to know legal
(37:16):
legal protection regarding what happens to that information, and you
have no control over where it ultimately ends up. We
found we found an interesting take on this from the Parallax,
which does a pretty solid job of painting the backgrounds
here of the of the current industry and where it
(37:38):
seems set to go. Yeah, there are a lot of
um possible positives that are here in this industry. So
it says, quote the consumer DNA market is poised to
become the ten billion dollar business by dozens of companies
sell home DNA kits. Some like ancestry dot Com and
family Tree DNA allow you to divine your ethnic background
(38:00):
and connect you with different distant relatives. Others like twenty
three and Me can also identify genes linked to ten diseases,
including Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and Celiac's. Mine didn't do any of
that stuff. See twenty three and me is pretty cool
in that regard, And I mean it's pretty great. You
can see ads for these services. Uh they talk about
(38:22):
how millions of people are already using them. Why don't
you join in and let's find out. Well, I mean yeah,
because they gotta get that um. But what they don't
tell you is that unlocking your genetic code could also
get you into trouble, legal trouble. Specifically, you can also
prevent you from getting life insurance if you find something
in your DNA that you didn't know was there before,
(38:43):
and now your insurance company is all like, uh yeah, yeah, man.
It's at least if you like lie on your insurance
papers and say you don't smoke, and then they like
ransack your Facebook page and find a picture of you smoking. Okay,
that's all in good fun. You know, they they gave
good chase. Whatever this is, like, you know this is it? Yeah, well,
here's the worst one for you. What if you, let's say,
(39:06):
do twenty three and me, then you find out, oh wait,
that's not my dad. That would be pretty messed up, right,
are you my dad? Matt? I'm just saying, well, you'll
find out one day soon. Uh so? Uh no, daddy, No,
But like this is a genuine thing that I'm assuming
(39:28):
has happened. I haven't seen it reported, but surely like you,
you you understand the risk of finding out something like
maybe you don't though. Maybe that's the thing they think
it just pops up as a notification, like your dad.
Maybe they send like a very avuncular guy to come
in and break the news to you while he takes
your fishing or something. That's one of these things too.
(39:48):
If we start like really like we're going out a
rabbit hole here, but getting into the territory of targeted ads,
what if you start getting ads targeted at you because
of your DNA information? Right, Yeah, that a great question.
I mean, it is completely it used to be possible.
We're about two years from it being plausible. And it's
(40:09):
a spooky escalation. Like in the same way that person
got um an ad for a baby product right before
knowing No the father, I think the household received an
ad for in the mail for expectant mothers, and that's
how they found out that their daughter was pregnant. Target
(40:29):
literally knew before they do. It's why they're called Target Boy.
No kidding, man. And now, whenever I don't know about you,
I don't want to ruin this for anybody who still
receives those circulars and those you know, the slightly better
quality than straight up newspaper coupon books when when I
(40:50):
received those. Now ever, since we we did that episode
and looked into that stuff, I always get a little
freaked out. And I always try to treat it like
a magic eight ball or some tea leaves for the
believers in uh prognostication, you know, I always always wonder, like,
what what what do they know about me that made
(41:12):
them think I need to deck At this point, I
just kind of wish they would deliver my mail directly
into the trash. Yeah, saved me as a trip I
use it for art projects. It's cool, you're a very
enterprising and earth friendly um individual. Cheap is another way
to put it, but a thrifty, brave, clean, and reverence
if you get that right. In Uh, there's a there's
(41:34):
a real world example of this stuff happening, at least
the life insurance stuff happening. In two thousand and sixteen
of a writer named Christina Farr, writing for Fast Company,
gave us the story of someone identified as Jennifer Marie,
not the real name to protect their privacy, although the
(41:56):
horse may have already left the barn there uh. At
the time, she was thirty six, gainfully employed, and had
no current medical issues. But on September of twenty fifteen,
her application for life insurance was denied. And here's the
quote they used. Unfortunately, after carefully reviewing your application, we
(42:19):
regret that we were unable to provide you with the
coverage because of your positive b r c A one gene.
The letter reads. In the US, for background far rights,
about one and four women have a b r c
A one or two gene and it's associated with an
increased risk of breast or ovarian cancer. Wow. So she
was denied that because she had done one of these tests,
(42:41):
because the insurance company had access to that genetic information.
So now does that qualify as a as a pre
existing condition? Does you know? Is it something where we
would have to say from the life insurance company and
you know, of course the US is privatized insurance. From
(43:03):
the life insurance company's perspective, is it a matter of
in the long run, protecting the rest of their customers
so they don't go under what you mean? Is that
part of it? How do they how do they address that?
How do they process that? Stop being private companies selling
(43:23):
health insurance? That's how that's how they fix that. A
lot of people would make that argument, but there is
there is hope in form of the Genetic Non Discrimination Act,
which we mentioned I think previously as well, and also
known as GINA. It is meant to prohibit employers and
health insurers from using your genetic info against you. However,
(43:45):
it is full of loopholes and Congress is going to
swiss cheese it a little bit more. And this goes
back to that question we asked before we received a
fantastic comment regarding the the idea of UM how to
prioritize technological process progress and potential gains. Right, if we're
(44:10):
risking ruining the lives and the livelihoods of a few people,
certainly maybe more than we think, is that worth the
potential of saving maybe hundreds of thousands or even millions
of lives down the line. I mean this, this becomes
(44:31):
a very deep dilemma very quickly. I don't know what.
What do you guys think? We talked about it a
little bit about this earlier. I definitely see the side
and mentioned this in the other episode that we're just recorded.
Just I do see this as being a great thing
potentially in the long run, specifically fixing a lot of
these genetic disorders, just by having enough data, because that's
(44:53):
one of the biggest problems is not being able to
track DNA over time and looking at how these specific
sequences actually really change a human beings development. I think
it could be huge, and it could be exactly what
we need. But is it for everybody? Though? Like? Is
it is? It? Is it gonna mean the wealthy are
going to be prioritized and be able to, you know,
(45:13):
extend their lives and the lives of their offspring by
having access to this because of their wealth. Certainly, Yes,
that's what will happen um until there's some big change.
And and here's the here's the other thing. What happens
when let's just say, the wrong group of people ends
up getting in power somehow, and there are all of
(45:35):
these databases that can be found and someone in power
wants to, let's say, get rid of certain types of
DNA in the culture mass eugenics or something. You've got
literally all of the data that you would ever need
for that, if you know, it's compulsory, and everyone eventually
one day signs up for something like this because you
(45:57):
kind of have to present your papers the way it
was in various world wars. It's spit into this tube
and stand here wait, I mean, that's a that's a
terrifying thing. We'd all like to think it's it's far
it's far off right, or that it's not actually going
to happen, sort of a nimbi process. Not in my backyard.
(46:22):
But at this point, you know, again, if you haven't
written into us about this, we we we want to
hear from you. Where do you fall on the side
of the line. And we want to end today's episode with,
first off, a clear admission again, Joseph James D'Angelo has
not been convicted. He is, he is talking from what
(46:43):
we understand, and he is confessing, but that doesn't he
hasn't had the court time yet. Although it's it's pretty
much a clear cut. Do we know anything about his
mental state apparently aside from the violent outburst, Uh, he
does appear lucid interesting, which is which is interesting. And
(47:06):
you know right now, given the time that's elapsed, if
there are other crimes or murders, he is literally the
best chance of finding them. Oh yeah, And and every
day we're finding out new things. I would follow the
Sacramento B online if you can, you have the time
to do it and you're interested in this case. They're
all kinds of new little stories about maybe he had
an accomplice during some of these crimes, maybe it was
(47:28):
a breakup that sent him on that first raping spring,
unsuccessful engagement. Yeah, I mean there's all there was all
kinds of interesting things coming out, and I just have
to say, like we said before, the Sacramento B is
the place that I'm finding them the soonest. And we
have one other thing here, not not a conclusion. There's
not really a conclusion to this story yet and not
(47:51):
not a shout out corner, though we will be returning
that segment soon. We have something that when we were
talking about this off off air, we're all texting each
other as we're as we were working on this, and
nol you pointed out to us another recent development involving
DNA and killers and the Sacramento b um they I
believe we're first on the scene to report that police
(48:14):
in vallejo Um have obtained DNA supposedly linked to the
Zodiac Killer and that it's being processed in a lab
and we could see results any day now. This was
on May the two, and they're probably gonna do a
lot of the same things here, or at least potentially
doing the same things, finding that match, linking that up,
(48:37):
and then going from their familial searches looking looking at
that trash again. Maybe maybe trash going through belongates. You know,
there's not really a different way to phrase it. But
today this ends our episode. From now our update on
the Golden State Killer a k a. The Diamond Not
Killer a k a. The Original night Stalker a k a.
(49:00):
The East Area Rapist, and the Salia Ransacker. We would
like to hear from you what what do you think
will be the results of this What do you think
of a world wherein for the greater good, everyone's DNA
is considered part of this large database. Would do you
(49:22):
think the benefits outweigh the negatives? I mean, in this case,
it seems pretty clear cut that they do. I propose
that it's very similar to requiring you know, this is
gonna be controversial, maybe to register your car. Your car
has to be in a database because it could either
allow you to escape from a criminal act or you
could even use it as a weapon. It is a
(49:43):
very powerful thing, um, and you can't have a car
unless you register it. You can do all those things
with your human body. So yeah, that that logic. I mean,
I'm not saying that I necessarily support that, but I
could see law enforcement surely thinking that this is something
that would be very helpful and important to solving crimes,
but at the risk of of what privacy and uh,
(50:06):
it's my d n A. You also have a requirement
to have a license to operate a car, would you
have would that lead into having a license to reproduce
I mean, I'll double down out here on controversy here. Uh,
there are inevitably some some of you listening are are
going to see the potential parallel thread between registering a car,
(50:29):
registering DNA, registering a firearm. If we're gonna go controversial, right, yeah,
I don't, I don't know. I mean, that's a really
interesting argument though, because you can't have an unregistered car.
But you're right though, when you start going, you know,
taking that and taking it to well, what if then
you you need a license to reproduce? Or then we
(50:50):
start entering when we start, when we start putting our
physical forms into the into the equation and treating them
as though we as though it were a motor vehicle
or a gun or something like that, that really opens
up a lot of a lot of worm cans. It
is interesting, I am. It's so weird. I would have
been so against this, thousand percent against all of this,
(51:15):
and for some reason, somehow, as I'm getting older, oh gosh,
you guys, I'm kind of like, well, get everyone a
DNA scan and put it on a tattoo and then
their arms in their registered and if anyone does no no,
we will find you no no yes. If you no no,
then we get you. I love this voice. It sounds
(51:37):
like he's either got loose dentures or he's also eating
cottage cheese. I'm not sure there's a cottage cheese is
one of the finest foods you can eat. I would
recommend it early in the morning and laid it in
the afternoon and also early at night. Well, you know
what I have to say, thank you so much for
giving us a note of levity gracing us. Yeah, Gray
(52:00):
seen us. That was saying. I can't stop smiling at
that old man. Man. That's what happens to you get old.
You start to decide you want to give up all
your civil liberties, or at least the young whipper snappers
should right with with with those realizations. Also, your voice
changes and you start to sound like a very very
old man. Yeah, it's mostly the the testicular droup, I
(52:23):
think is what causes that. I keep trying to get
a rise out of Paul mission control decond and he's
just not even No, that's not true. You're not seeing
him from the angle that I'm seeing him. He had
a he's got a smirk, he's got a bit of
a glimmer of a smile, and as always want to
thank you for tuning in. You are the most important
(52:43):
part of the show and we would like to hear
from you. Tell us what do you think about DNA
collection and all of this stuff. Do you think they
got the right person? Do you think there's someone else
out there? What? What? What else? Do you think about
the East Area rapist? Have you ever lived in any
of those races? How did these crimes affect you growing up?
Just anything you want to talk about. Is there another
(53:05):
serial killer that you think we need to jump and
jump into a little bit deeper, or maybe information about
the Zodiac killer because that may potentially be an episode
coming up with all the the things happening right now.
In that case, talk to us. Let us know. You
can hit us up on Facebook most of the social media's,
um we are conspiracy stuff on Facebook, We're conspiracy stuff
(53:27):
show on Instagram. And if you have a cool story,
a little, a little missive uh something about growing up
in one of these areas, we would love it if
you left us a voicemail. Please. We are one eight
three three st d w y t K. You can
call that number right now, leave a message and it
might get on the air. Pretty cool. That we're exactly
(53:48):
seven digits for the for the show acronym. Yeah, I
can't believe that worked out. If you don't want to
do any of that stuff, but we really wish you'd
leave the voicemail because we want to see some action
on there. You can just write it's a good old
fashioned he out. We are conspiracy at House of Works
dot com m m m
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M Hello,
(00:24):
welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my
name is no they call me. Then we are joined
with our super producer Paul Mission controlled decond But most importantly,
you are you. You are here, and that makes this
stuff they don't want you to know. This episode is
going to be an update on something. It's an update
that we hoped but never truly thought we would ever
(00:47):
have the chance to do. This is very much a
what a what a time to be alive? Sort of show.
You may recall long time listeners that a while ac
when was it Matt ma Mayen, we did an episode
on what is known as the original night Stalker or
(01:09):
the Golden State Killer, And in this episode we looked
at the current research and investigation into those at the
time unsolved crimes, the various theories, the various leads that
were taken up and later rejected by law enforcement and
(01:29):
armchair investigators on specialized crime forums on Reddit, all over
the internet, and including some of the authors who made
it their life's work to hunt down this killer. Today, however,
we're telling a very different story. Today. We are making
it official. After decades of dead ends, tantalizing theories, and
(01:52):
frustrating leads, justice may have finally caught up with the
Golden State Killer. But four you listen to this episode
if you would like a deep dive into the crimes
and the past investigation of the crimes of the Golden
State Killer, or East Area Rapists as they were also known,
(02:12):
U do check out our episode from mayen. We'll wait.
Oh man, that's a good one. Wasn't it kind of
a bummer? Really? Yeah? But news It was a lots
of lots of avenues to investigate, but we we get
a happy ending. Here is what is? What was? What
(02:34):
this amounts to? Right, which it's there's definitely a light
at the tunnel at the end of the tunnel. That's
a better turn of phrase. We'll see, we'll see, we'll see.
We hope we as a society make it to the light.
Quick background for everybody who just sat quietly the way
the three of us did in the studio while your
(02:54):
fellow listeners were checking out that episode from at least
ninete six California was plagued by a serial break in artist,
a burglar, later a rapist, and then finally a murderer
who was known by several different names and was believed
to be several different people for a time, the vizalea ransacker,
(03:14):
the Diamond not Killer, the Golden State Killer, the East
Area rapist, and also the original night stalker, nowadays more
often referred to as the Golden State Killer. I believe yeah,
because the Golden State Killer encombs as all of these
different crimes breefe and eventually, in the course of their investigation,
law enforcement and independent investigators began to connect the dots
(03:38):
and they said, we believe this is all the work
of a single individuals, so not copycatters, not a group
operating in concert, although we do have a bit of
a rabbit hole about that. But a single man, a
man who might never be apprehended until that is on
April two, thousand eighteen, when authorities announced the arrest of
(04:00):
a suspect named Joseph James D'Angelo, Jr. A seventy two
year old retired police officer. He was rested on eight
counts of first degree murder based on DNA evidence, and
more than forty years since his criminal career began, the
original night stalker would finally maybe be held accountable. This
(04:24):
is the accumulation of countless of hours of police work,
contributions and analysis by thousands and thousands of people, several
of whom are doubtlessly listening to this podcast today, and
in a very real sense, a lucky break. So so
what happens. Can we look back over some of these
original crimes? I think we must, Well, here are the
(04:46):
facts that maybe we start with the Vasalia ransacker, and
we do have to say we are only at this
point talking about documented crimes. As you've seen in previous shows,
is unfortunate fact in the US that many, many, many
crimes do not get reported. Do you think that because
of what's come to light that that we'll find out
(05:07):
about more or do you think that's unlikely? You know, ideally,
ideally there wouldn't be more to fined, but realistically there
are probably some. It's just a safe thing to guess.
The question then becomes, if we're talking about pre nineteen
seventies stuff, were the authorities at the time collecting DNA?
(05:30):
Does anything remain? You know, so it's it's tough, but
who knows. Also, if it turns out we should say
D'Angelo has not been convicted yet. But if it turns
out that he is uh, that he is convicted, and
he already from what we understand, confessed to several things,
he may just go on and start naming more names
(05:50):
and instances because he is frankly at the end of
his life one way or the other. Yep. Has can
often happen with these kinds of lega. He crimes, yeah,
unfortunately well, the Visalia ransacker was a master burglar and
break in guy, believed to be responsible for more than
one crimes. Again, only the ones that we know of.
(06:13):
The first ransacking that was recorded was on Tuesday, March
nineteenth four, and one thing that stood out to people
was that he passed over a lot of high value items,
a lot of electronics, a lot of keepsakes and stuff,
and instead he stole about fifty bucks worth of coins
from a piggy bank. That's what That's what he took.
(06:35):
Clearly something else at work here other than desire for
monetary gain right right, because there there are pawn shops everywhere.
He could have taken something and then pawned it, uh
and made much more than fifty dollars. Is the keyword here, Ransack, right,
because this is about going through people's private things. Yes,
(06:57):
just so. He was tearing houses of park, knocking over furniture,
cutting stuff up, going in the closets, throwing out things.
But he would only actually steal a few small items trinkets,
cuff links, keepsakes, keepsakes. And he would also probably the
creepiest thing you would do is he would arrange items
(07:18):
and what appeared to be almost a ritualistic fact fashion,
you know, like women's underwear. He did steal weapons. He
stole six weapons. He was prolific. He committed multiple break
ins in the same area on the same day and
he also set a record for that too. Yeah, he
broke into twelve different homes in a single day on Saturday,
November and at this point, other than the strange arrangement
(07:45):
of items, it looks like a really creepy burglar, right
until that is, on September eleven, a man who is
strongly believed to be the rand Sacker broke into the
home of one Claude Snelling at five thirty two Whitney Lane.
It's now South Whitney Street if you're familiar with the neighborhood.
(08:07):
Claude caught someone trying to kidnap his daughter in their
cardboard and this still a named person shot Claude twice
and Claude died and the assailant fled. This became the
first known murder linked to what we call the original
night stalker. And this murder prompted him to leave town.
(08:29):
So he's escalated already from ransacking to child snatching. Yeah,
it seems that it seems like that was the course.
It's it's pretty safe to say that if the daughter
had been successfully kidnapped, she would have at very least
been assaulted. And then the murder, though was a byproduct
of being caught. Yes, the murder was more than likely
(08:51):
a moment of panic to or perhaps in some sense
meant to erase a witness. It's probably not the primary intense,
but the story of this man is one of escalations.
I just wanted to point that out. And it's interesting
that this this particular killing. I wonder if it's like
what kind of gave him the taste or something like that,
(09:11):
and he's like, maybe I want to add this to
my repertoire. You have to wonder too, because we find
often in serial murders, like in our previous episodes on
Uncaught serial Killers, we do see this escalation. You know,
someone starts with fires, someone starts with mutilations right or
(09:33):
running by and slashing someone or choking somebody, and then
it builds and builds. But this killer was at this
point still lucid enough to realize the dangers if they
chose to stay in Visalia. So in mid nineteen seventy
six he moves to Sacramento, and that's where he progresses
(09:58):
fully from burglary and murders, perhaps unintentionally, to sexual assault.
So around June six, our person here of interest moved
to Sacramento, and this is when he's really progressing from
burglary into sexual assault. Although you know he he originally
(10:19):
targeted these women who were alone. Usually that's what what
his victim would look like. Um, they would be in
their homes, sometimes they would be with their children, and
he would later prefer couples. Somehow it switched from just
a alone victim that he could attack to perhaps, like
(10:39):
we were saying, the escalating thrill and whatever he was
getting out of this escalated to where he needed to
have a partnered couple, to where there is a male
and female usually And perhaps some of that is tied
into his perception of the unattainable nature of someone already
in a relationship. Perhaps some of it is is a
(11:01):
power move on his on his part to someone else
witness helpless. It's spooky and disturbing stuff. He is standard procedure,
smacked of prior training. He's weren't He's may have been
crimes of passion when he got there, but he did
(11:21):
a lot of homework. He did extensive research. She would
typically break in through a window and awaken someone with
a flashlight and a gun so they can't clearly see
him as well, and then buying the victims, blindfold them,
gag them with towels from their own house, and he
would typically force the female victim to tie up her
(11:43):
male companion before he tied the female victim up himself.
And he operated that way for from for about a
year June to seventy six to May seventy seven, and
he had a three month gap and then he returned
in sacrament so in other counties he had another three
month gap, and then he was operating in other counties
(12:05):
until nineteen seventy nine, and from what the timeline shows,
from June seventy six to July nine, he committed overall
fifty one crimes as the East Area Rapist. As the
Original night Stalker, he committed seven known crimes with multiple homicides.
(12:29):
That marks his move from break ins to rape to murder.
So stay tuned. After a brief break for our sponsor,
we will return and give you a grim introduction to
the man known as Joseph James D'Angelo Jr. So there
are a lot of great timelines that have come out
(12:50):
so far, a lot of them pretty brief, but we
stumbled upon one on Reddit that been found and we're
just gonna kind of go over this and hit some
of the high points and low points in this man's life. Yeah,
you can find You can find this on the East
Area Rapist Original nights Stalker subreddit posted by a user
(13:13):
named Sacred Geometry. And I know it might sound, uh
maybe a little cursory for the three of us to
be citing this sort of source, but this person has
done their homework extensively and we found quite a quite
a thorough, robust timeline here that follows from the birth
(13:37):
of D'Angelo to the arrest. He was born November eight
in Bath, New York. Yeah, and just to jump on
there with what Ben was saying, I linked up some
of these dates just as effact checking exercise, and the
Sacramento B has much of the same exact stuff on it.
So and shout out to the Sacramento B. They've been
(13:57):
really leading the charge on reporting here. So he's born
ve Then in nineteen sixty four he joins the Navy.
He enlists there, and he goes into naval training that
same year in San Diego. And this is where he
would have, as part of his training, learned a lot
(14:18):
of knots that the average person would not would either
not be aware of or would not be able to
do on command. Specifically, like that diamond knot. Specifically like
that diamond knot, Matt, is that like a sheepshank was
at some kind of like specialized sailing knot. Yeah, Yeah,
and it was found at several of the crime scenes.
(14:38):
I knew that, but I just you know, is it
is it a particularly tricky one? Not tricky, just you
wouldn't you wouldn't think to make that way It's super
interesting too when you you know, it's such a long
timeline of crime and now we have um a person
to associate with it. This timeline that we're looking at
has photographs of him through about his life, which is
(15:01):
really interesting just to visually trace his you know, kind
of progression and think about what he was doing at
the time that those photos were taken. UM. So he did,
in fact serve in the Vietnam War. UM. And then
in August of nineteen sixty eight, he goes to Sierra
College is in Rockland, California, and fascinatingly got an associate
(15:22):
degree in police science that that could come in Andy
m Yeah, he also attends later after the year. After
he graduates with an associate degree in police science, he
goes to cs U and Sacramento, where he spends a
year earning a bachelor's in criminal justice. And the same
(15:43):
year he gets out of there, in nineteen seventy two,
he has UH. He spends the next approximate year UH
sometime during nine and nineteen seventy three, he completes an
internship in the Roseville Patrol This this is interesting because
at the time, if we look at the context, many
(16:05):
police officers and law enforcement professionals did not have college
education or higher education to this degree, not to mention
an internship. So it's somewhat strange that will see this
as his career continues. It's somewhat strange that he goes
to smaller police forces. You know, he could have maybe
(16:26):
written a ticket to Los Angeles or Chicago, but for
some reason, he stayed in these in these smaller areas. Uh.
The same year wherein we believe he completes his internship,
he joins the Exeter Police Department on their burglary task
force in May of nineteen seventy three. May of nineteen
(16:48):
seventy three is also when experts believe the Vassalia Ransacker
crimes began. Yeah, the burglary crimes. Hey, I'm on a
burglary task force. In such a trope in fiction, right,
like the what was that movie about the crime scene
photographer Nightcrawlers? Who who starts perpetrating crimes? Does he not? Really?
(17:14):
Kind of yes, he does, that's true. He does. That's
very true. He at first it starts off that he's
he's looking for the big scoops and then in order
to get them, he kind of starts behaving in a
in a monstrous way. He escalates, or like Dexter for example,
Not that it's like a good show exactly, but you
know blood expert who is also a serial or would
(17:38):
Jude Law from Road to Perdition be an example. I
don't wow, I don't remember. It's been a minute. What
was he what was his deal? I feel like we
may be on the verge of a spoiler alert. It's
okay if we if we say it okay, then it's okay,
all right. Just don't don't get Tom Hanks angry at
us for spoiling his movies. Road to Perdition spoiler coming
(17:59):
in three two one. Jude Law's character is a photographer
who is also killing people to get the best photographs
of crime scenes. Yeow, yeah, but this and it's a
solid film. If you haven't seen, Oh, it's coming back
to me. I haven't seen it since it was in
the theaters, but now I'm having flashes of it and
(18:20):
it was quite good. One thing to point out here,
in nineteen seventy Joseph was engaged and then he got
married in nineteen seventy three as well. If we're imagining
so he's got his professional life and he's also got
his personal life that's going on. So he's engaged. And
then three years later he gets married. At this in
the same year that the Vasilia ransackers, right, but he
(18:43):
doesn't marry the woman he was originally engaged to know,
he married someone different. And Uh, in seventy five, as
we said, Claude Snelling is murdered during the attempted kidnapping. Uh,
there's an attempted murder of an officer McGowan in December
of the same year when the police got close to
(19:03):
apprehending the rand Sacker. And then this is when not
only does the Ransacker disappear from Vizalea, but someone in
Sacramento begins committing the East Area rapist crimes. For d'angelo's part,
he has relocated to the Auburn Police Department. So again
(19:25):
these relocations, at least timing wise, begin to match up.
And then in nineteen seventy nine, he gets caught and
he's shop but not for any of these major crimes.
He gets caught shoplifting. It's a hammer and what was
the other thing, Oh it was it was not tape um,
But yeah, he got shop, got caught shoplifting small items. Yeah, specifically,
(19:48):
I know a hammer was one of the major things.
Was the kind of items that you maybe wouldn't want
a record of you having purchased. I don't know, it's
it definitely seemed a bit strange, specifically with that hammer.
But the police to apartment finds out because he is
actually found guilty of shoplifting and then he gets fired
from the Auburn Police Department in August of seventy nine.
(20:10):
And many people will tell you that there was a
slight pausing crime at that time. That's not entirely true
because in October of seventy nine, we know that there
was an attack that went wrong on the on the
E A R Side on what would be classified as
the original night Stalker crimes, and tried to break in
(20:30):
and assault and murder a couple, but he botched it. Then,
as the original night Stalker, there was the murder of
Robert Offerman and Deborah Manning in December of nineteen seventy nine.
The next month there's a pause. March of nineteen eighty
Lyman and Charlene Smith are murdered. In August, Keith and
(20:53):
Patrice Harrington or murdered uh at. During this time, D'Angelo
buys a home in a name borhood called Citrus Heights.
February one, woman named Manuela Whithoun is murdered, and then
to jump back into his personal life, his first child
is born in September one, another huge change in his life.
(21:14):
And then you see that there's a bit of a break,
a big gap here, um that happens after September one, right,
a five year gap in May of so the murder
before the child was Sherry Domingo and Greg Sanchez. In
July one, Matt, as you said, September one, D'Angelo has
(21:38):
his first child and in Los Angeles, but he wasn't
living there, was he His child was born in Sacramento.
And then, ma, as you said, radio silence for five
years at least as far as we know. In May
ninety six, another murder is associated with the original night Stalker,
that's Janelle Cruise. And in that same or in November, um,
(22:01):
he has his second child in Los Angeles, but did
he live there for an extended amount of time. It
seemed like he was sticking to the smaller areas well.
We know that the murders, at least the document of
ones appeared to have stopped at that time, and as
as as we look, he continues on for a while
to have a relatively normal life. Despite what some of
(22:26):
us might assume about about killers, and despite how we
would assume having a criminal record for shoplifting would screw
up your job prospects, he he seems to have continued.
He stayed working at the same place until retirement, the
save mart, which was I guess he was like a
loader or something in the in a distribution center, or
(22:46):
he definitely worked at the distribution center. And I'm assuming
after working that many years, he probably moved up the ladder,
but we don't have that information. Yeah, from August nineteen
eighty nine, he was working at that distribution center nol
mentioned in Ru's Belle, California, and he worked there until
what until last year. It's retirement age, so he was
(23:07):
settled in and everything seemed to indicate that this guy
would you know, retire and relative obscurity. He was living
with one of his daughters at the time and her husband,
so that would put him today at in the neighborhood
(23:27):
of seventy two years of age, and that would put
the assuming and there's a big assumption that's probably incorrect.
Assuming that all the crimes that occurred are the crimes
we know about h then that would put him at
a murder rate of twelve to thirteen people UHT, five
(23:47):
to fifty sexual assaults easily more than a d and
twenty homes broken into. Yeah, and that's, of course, if
he actually did all of these crimes, and that that's
a very good point to make. If, of course he
actually did all of these crimes. He's being charged for
several murders right now as we're recording this, but it's
not all of them. Well what's that based on? Guys? What? What?
(24:09):
What do we actually know? We'll answer what might be
the most important question in today's episode after a word
from our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy. This man
Angelo was associated with these crimes, not through a bunch
(24:32):
of people digging through micro fiche or hunting down old
leads alone. No, this man was apprehended due to a
lead they derived from d n A, a DNA database.
So one of the first questions is how did they
(24:52):
find this DNA because clearly, like in the nineties seventies,
for instance, they wouldn't have had the sophistication in terms
of technology to investigate this. You can find a loose
leaf notebook or something, but you wouldn't automatically be able
to pull that info off of it totally. And when
I first saw this case the story, I assumed that
(25:12):
they had a sample of his DNA that ended up
in one of these databases. But that's not quite how
it went down, is it. No, not quite. It turns
out that they took crime scene DNA which they had
had from the time of the crimes, and ran it
through various databases where all of a sudden, ding ding ding,
(25:33):
it showed a match to what would turn out to
be one on d'angelo's distant relatives U someone who was
who had their DNA in a public database. So let's
let's look at that arrest. Though it isn't until March
of this year as we record this Marchen that he
(25:53):
is identified as a suspect in these in these decade
old crimes via a public database. And what's strange about
it happening in two thousand eighteen for a lot of
people is the idea that WHOA and authorities would hold
on to this information for decades and not do anything
(26:14):
in DNA was just emerging as a criminal investigative tool,
and according to the experts, D'Angelo, as a former police officer,
would have probably, according to them, have known that this
thing was on the way or there was a possibility
(26:35):
at least. So when they when they started looking for this,
a lot of the stuff we read about says that
they found a match that was a distant relative. But
what does that mean. Oh well, it means that they
took what they did have as far as DNA evidence
from this killer, and they threw it into one of
these databases called g D match dot com, and they
(26:56):
found a fourth cousin of D'Angelo. Now they have no
idea at this point who D'Angelo is. They just know
that this DNA match matches this person at least in
some way, and this person had used this g e
D match program already and this the service. And then
they start looking through this person's family tree, this fourth cousin,
(27:18):
and then they start trying to match up people's backgrounds
from that family tree, and does anybody match up. Do
they live in Vassilia around this time, Do they live
in Sacramento around this time? Um? And they start picking
out a few people to look at, and they eventually
come upon Mr D'Angelo and uh, it's a really strange
(27:39):
process how that I just happened to work. Remember on
the the Here's Where It Gets Crazy episode, we talked
about this whole thing, and there was a story about
this very same process that led them to like a
false positive. That can happen too, because they they got
a hit, but the guy didn't match criteria for the
crime they were trying to to solve. So they looked
(28:01):
at like his son or something like that, and it
matched a little more, and so they went with that
and then ended up not being Yeah, well, in this case,
the investigation is fascinating because they got this match with
the fourth cousin. Then they actually start looking at this
guy and they start staking out his house for like
six or seven days, yeah, exactly, and they're looking at
his trash. I mean, they don't they don't state specifically
(28:24):
how they got the DNA samples, but they do say
it was probably from a container that he had drunken,
he had taken a drink out of, and they would
watch him come in and out of his house, and
they you know, then they took that DNA sample and
they tested it with the other DNA that they had
from the previous case, and they went, oh, boy, guess what.
(28:45):
Somehow we got the guy. It's him. Yeah, And the
match was not something that was contested. We can't be
more clear about this. It wasn't It wasn't like, oh,
to go to indicator, let's see. I know this. This
was something that had been under investigation in a while,
(29:05):
for for some time. A criminologist in Contra Costa County,
way back in two thousand and one had linked two
sets of cases to the same individual thanks to DNA evidence.
They just didn't know who it was. And that was
the East Area rapist and the original night stocker. Yeah.
(29:26):
And to to the point that that you made knowl
when they get the d n A, it led them
to a number of people, right, and they had to
separate timeline. So they had to spend this time surveilling
this guy and going through his trash. Most likely, although
they don't say it that way because I don't think
(29:48):
they want that image of law enforcement to be you know,
they want to be presented as people digging through your trash.
But I will but and they you know, they're there
is a beyondent likelihood, beyond likelihood that they have the
(30:09):
right guy. This is the US, so technically he's innocent
until proven guilty. Digging through trash is just good police work.
I would agree, I would agree. And this this is
where the story stands. As the story emerges, we're going
to hear new updates. Will we can go ahead and
(30:30):
call it. We're inevitably gonna hear I think the conviction
of this criminal um. On a side note, the neighbors
said the same things that you would hear about serial
killers in works of fiction. They said he was kind
of a recluse. We didn't think he was a killer
or a monster. They did say he was prone to
(30:50):
violent public outbursts. Did you catch that? But but somehow
you've maintained it and kept it under control for years
and years and years after his children were born, except
for one case right after his first daughter. Again, that is,
unless more stuff emerges, like we of pointing out earlier,
Unless it comes out that he is implicated and other stuff,
(31:14):
I would be at this point, I would be surprised
because if there were DNA leavings from other crimes, they
would have also pinned on those databases. Right, because those
databases work together pretty well. And this leads into the
larger implication, which is a big question for us today.
(31:37):
What what does this mean for not just the like
the DNA of criminals and these human monsters like serial killers,
but what does this mean for you right now listening
your DNA. We talked a little bit about this with
an excellent postum in our community page. Like you mentioned, Nolan,
here's where it gets crazy. And sometimes the three of
(32:00):
us are usually on the same page about a lot
of things. I mean, we get along famously, but we
might have some differing opinions about DNA testing, like a
number of people, and this is just personally. I've held
off on some DNA testing due to privacy concerns. Yeah,
that's a good call, and that seems to be a
sentiment shared by many. Oh yeah yeah, and No, you
(32:24):
had earlier mentioned that you had experience with DNA testing
from our earlier show Stuff of Life. I did, and
I kind of just threw myself into it like a
big dummy, thinking this will be cute and it's free,
so why not. Um kind of regretting it a little
bit after digging into some of this stuff. A little
bit more, not that I have anything to hide that
I'm worried about, you know, the government making a clone
(32:46):
army based on my pristine DNA. I would do it
if I could, Buddy, that's really sweet. But but here's
the deal. Yeah, what we found with this case is
that it doesn't even matter if you have or have
not submitted your DNA. Oh exactly. That's that's why I
said earlier. When I first read the details of this,
I'm like, oh, I guess he did one of those,
and then they got access to it somehow. Now it
(33:08):
was somewhere way down the line you can't control. We
haven't even met our fifth cousins. Ben and I did
an episode about lineage in our other show, Ridiculous History,
and the idea of knowing personally a fifth cousin was
sort of absurd, well at least for for us, for
our Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant between between us
um Ben, I think you said you were aware of
(33:29):
some fifth cousins, but you certainly aren't, you know, taking
in a movie of a weekend. Yeah, I come from
a strange place, but but yeah, it met. You make
an excellent point that in other cultures in place around
the world, it's quite common to know your extended family
or even live with them, or you know, maybe you're
all in the same town or the same region. Uh.
(33:50):
Not a lot of people here in the US are
that close. And there are these implications that you mentioned.
It's not somebody, it's not always going to be case
of someone signing up directly. We know that the military,
as we mentioned earlier, will take DNA samples. Now, if
you are involved in law enforcement on the wrong side,
(34:13):
if you get caught, then your DNA will go into
a system. But the implications are that even if you say,
like let's say Matt mayis you as an example. Okay,
let's say that Paul uh doesn't has never never been
to jail because he's a paragon of of upstanding young
(34:37):
gentleman this. And let's say he was also never in
the military or something like that. And let's say he
also additionally never signed up for something like twenty three
and meter ancestry dot com or anything like that. If, however,
one of Paul's relatives signs up for this thing, or
if one of his relatives joins the right kind of organization,
(35:01):
or if god forbid, they get in trouble with the law,
then they will end up in the system, which means,
by extension, he has ended up in a system whether
or not he agreed to be there. And in this case,
it would be probably metadata on Paul. It wouldn't actually
have his DNA or anything, right, I mean, that's how
this whole thing would work. It's just you're in the
(35:23):
system now because you are related in some way. Right. Yeah,
And we talked a little bit about how this data
is supposed to be made anonymous. I can't pronounce it.
Can you help me out? Anonymized? There we go, hold
in one. Yes, anonymity, anonymity my enemies anonymity and enmity
(35:46):
and enmity, Uh means many things to me if we're
just going to finish the poem. But the the strange
thing here is that we you know, we can't help.
But think of the comparison to big data and Facebook
or the so called frictional list sharing. Right. We have
(36:07):
friends who have never been on Facebook and never want
to be for various reasons of their own, but because
they know us, or because if you have friends like this,
they know you. Facebook has a shadow profile on them.
And again for anyone who heard our Cambridge analytic episode.
Facebook doesn't like us to call them shadow profiles. It
(36:28):
sounds spooky. Yeah, but literally everybody else except for Facebook
calls them shadow profile. What what their internal nomenclature is
for it, I don't know. Maybe they call them like
headstart profiles, fun pages, fun pages, party profiles. So right now,
there's no escaping that this this stuff has made life
(36:52):
massively better or at the very least provided some sense
of closure for people who are survivors of the TEMs
of these horrific atrocities. But that doesn't mean that we
should forget the implications. At least that's what a lot
of critics are saying about this stuff. Once you give
that data way, you yourself have little to know legal
(37:16):
legal protection regarding what happens to that information, and you
have no control over where it ultimately ends up. We
found we found an interesting take on this from the Parallax,
which does a pretty solid job of painting the backgrounds
here of the of the current industry and where it
(37:38):
seems set to go. Yeah, there are a lot of
um possible positives that are here in this industry. So
it says, quote the consumer DNA market is poised to
become the ten billion dollar business by dozens of companies
sell home DNA kits. Some like ancestry dot Com and
family Tree DNA allow you to divine your ethnic background
(38:00):
and connect you with different distant relatives. Others like twenty
three and Me can also identify genes linked to ten diseases,
including Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and Celiac's. Mine didn't do any of
that stuff. See twenty three and me is pretty cool
in that regard, And I mean it's pretty great. You
can see ads for these services. Uh they talk about
(38:22):
how millions of people are already using them. Why don't
you join in and let's find out. Well, I mean yeah,
because they gotta get that um. But what they don't
tell you is that unlocking your genetic code could also
get you into trouble, legal trouble. Specifically, you can also
prevent you from getting life insurance if you find something
in your DNA that you didn't know was there before,
(38:43):
and now your insurance company is all like, uh yeah, yeah, man.
It's at least if you like lie on your insurance
papers and say you don't smoke, and then they like
ransack your Facebook page and find a picture of you smoking. Okay,
that's all in good fun. You know, they they gave
good chase. Whatever this is, like, you know this is it? Yeah, well,
here's the worst one for you. What if you, let's say,
(39:06):
do twenty three and me, then you find out, oh wait,
that's not my dad. That would be pretty messed up, right,
are you my dad? Matt? I'm just saying, well, you'll
find out one day soon. Uh so? Uh no, daddy, No,
But like this is a genuine thing that I'm assuming
(39:28):
has happened. I haven't seen it reported, but surely like you,
you you understand the risk of finding out something like
maybe you don't though. Maybe that's the thing they think
it just pops up as a notification, like your dad.
Maybe they send like a very avuncular guy to come
in and break the news to you while he takes
your fishing or something. That's one of these things too.
(39:48):
If we start like really like we're going out a
rabbit hole here, but getting into the territory of targeted ads,
what if you start getting ads targeted at you because
of your DNA information? Right, Yeah, that a great question.
I mean, it is completely it used to be possible.
We're about two years from it being plausible. And it's
(40:09):
a spooky escalation. Like in the same way that person
got um an ad for a baby product right before
knowing No the father, I think the household received an
ad for in the mail for expectant mothers, and that's
how they found out that their daughter was pregnant. Target
(40:29):
literally knew before they do. It's why they're called Target Boy.
No kidding, man. And now, whenever I don't know about you,
I don't want to ruin this for anybody who still
receives those circulars and those you know, the slightly better
quality than straight up newspaper coupon books when when I
(40:50):
received those. Now ever, since we we did that episode
and looked into that stuff, I always get a little
freaked out. And I always try to treat it like
a magic eight ball or some tea leaves for the
believers in uh prognostication, you know, I always always wonder, like,
what what what do they know about me that made
(41:12):
them think I need to deck At this point, I
just kind of wish they would deliver my mail directly
into the trash. Yeah, saved me as a trip I
use it for art projects. It's cool, you're a very
enterprising and earth friendly um individual. Cheap is another way
to put it, but a thrifty, brave, clean, and reverence
if you get that right. In Uh, there's a there's
(41:34):
a real world example of this stuff happening, at least
the life insurance stuff happening. In two thousand and sixteen
of a writer named Christina Farr, writing for Fast Company,
gave us the story of someone identified as Jennifer Marie,
not the real name to protect their privacy, although the
(41:56):
horse may have already left the barn there uh. At
the time, she was thirty six, gainfully employed, and had
no current medical issues. But on September of twenty fifteen,
her application for life insurance was denied. And here's the
quote they used. Unfortunately, after carefully reviewing your application, we
(42:19):
regret that we were unable to provide you with the
coverage because of your positive b r c A one gene.
The letter reads. In the US, for background far rights,
about one and four women have a b r c
A one or two gene and it's associated with an
increased risk of breast or ovarian cancer. Wow. So she
was denied that because she had done one of these tests,
(42:41):
because the insurance company had access to that genetic information.
So now does that qualify as a as a pre
existing condition? Does you know? Is it something where we
would have to say from the life insurance company and
you know, of course the US is privatized insurance. From
(43:03):
the life insurance company's perspective, is it a matter of
in the long run, protecting the rest of their customers
so they don't go under what you mean? Is that
part of it? How do they how do they address that?
How do they process that? Stop being private companies selling
(43:23):
health insurance? That's how that's how they fix that. A
lot of people would make that argument, but there is
there is hope in form of the Genetic Non Discrimination Act,
which we mentioned I think previously as well, and also
known as GINA. It is meant to prohibit employers and
health insurers from using your genetic info against you. However,
(43:45):
it is full of loopholes and Congress is going to
swiss cheese it a little bit more. And this goes
back to that question we asked before we received a
fantastic comment regarding the the idea of UM how to
prioritize technological process progress and potential gains. Right, if we're
(44:10):
risking ruining the lives and the livelihoods of a few people,
certainly maybe more than we think, is that worth the
potential of saving maybe hundreds of thousands or even millions
of lives down the line. I mean this, this becomes
(44:31):
a very deep dilemma very quickly. I don't know what.
What do you guys think? We talked about it a
little bit about this earlier. I definitely see the side
and mentioned this in the other episode that we're just recorded.
Just I do see this as being a great thing
potentially in the long run, specifically fixing a lot of
these genetic disorders, just by having enough data, because that's
(44:53):
one of the biggest problems is not being able to
track DNA over time and looking at how these specific
sequences actually really change a human beings development. I think
it could be huge, and it could be exactly what
we need. But is it for everybody? Though? Like? Is
it is? It? Is it gonna mean the wealthy are
going to be prioritized and be able to, you know,
(45:13):
extend their lives and the lives of their offspring by
having access to this because of their wealth. Certainly, Yes,
that's what will happen um until there's some big change.
And and here's the here's the other thing. What happens
when let's just say, the wrong group of people ends
up getting in power somehow, and there are all of
(45:35):
these databases that can be found and someone in power
wants to, let's say, get rid of certain types of
DNA in the culture mass eugenics or something. You've got
literally all of the data that you would ever need
for that, if you know, it's compulsory, and everyone eventually
one day signs up for something like this because you
(45:57):
kind of have to present your papers the way it
was in various world wars. It's spit into this tube
and stand here wait, I mean, that's a that's a
terrifying thing. We'd all like to think it's it's far
it's far off right, or that it's not actually going
to happen, sort of a nimbi process. Not in my backyard.
(46:22):
But at this point, you know, again, if you haven't
written into us about this, we we we want to
hear from you. Where do you fall on the side
of the line. And we want to end today's episode with,
first off, a clear admission again, Joseph James D'Angelo has
not been convicted. He is, he is talking from what
(46:43):
we understand, and he is confessing, but that doesn't he
hasn't had the court time yet. Although it's it's pretty
much a clear cut. Do we know anything about his
mental state apparently aside from the violent outburst, Uh, he
does appear lucid interesting, which is which is interesting. And
(47:06):
you know right now, given the time that's elapsed, if
there are other crimes or murders, he is literally the
best chance of finding them. Oh yeah, And and every
day we're finding out new things. I would follow the
Sacramento B online if you can, you have the time
to do it and you're interested in this case. They're
all kinds of new little stories about maybe he had
an accomplice during some of these crimes, maybe it was
(47:28):
a breakup that sent him on that first raping spring,
unsuccessful engagement. Yeah, I mean there's all there was all
kinds of interesting things coming out, and I just have
to say, like we said before, the Sacramento B is
the place that I'm finding them the soonest. And we
have one other thing here, not not a conclusion. There's
not really a conclusion to this story yet and not
(47:51):
not a shout out corner, though we will be returning
that segment soon. We have something that when we were
talking about this off off air, we're all texting each
other as we're as we were working on this, and
nol you pointed out to us another recent development involving
DNA and killers and the Sacramento b um they I
believe we're first on the scene to report that police
(48:14):
in vallejo Um have obtained DNA supposedly linked to the
Zodiac Killer and that it's being processed in a lab
and we could see results any day now. This was
on May the two, and they're probably gonna do a
lot of the same things here, or at least potentially
doing the same things, finding that match, linking that up,
(48:37):
and then going from their familial searches looking looking at
that trash again. Maybe maybe trash going through belongates. You know,
there's not really a different way to phrase it. But
today this ends our episode. From now our update on
the Golden State Killer a k a. The Diamond Not
Killer a k a. The Original night Stalker a k a.
(49:00):
The East Area Rapist, and the Salia Ransacker. We would
like to hear from you what what do you think
will be the results of this What do you think
of a world wherein for the greater good, everyone's DNA
is considered part of this large database. Would do you
(49:22):
think the benefits outweigh the negatives? I mean, in this case,
it seems pretty clear cut that they do. I propose
that it's very similar to requiring you know, this is
gonna be controversial, maybe to register your car. Your car
has to be in a database because it could either
allow you to escape from a criminal act or you
could even use it as a weapon. It is a
(49:43):
very powerful thing, um, and you can't have a car
unless you register it. You can do all those things
with your human body. So yeah, that that logic. I mean,
I'm not saying that I necessarily support that, but I
could see law enforcement surely thinking that this is something
that would be very helpful and important to solving crimes,
but at the risk of of what privacy and uh,
(50:06):
it's my d n A. You also have a requirement
to have a license to operate a car, would you
have would that lead into having a license to reproduce
I mean, I'll double down out here on controversy here. Uh,
there are inevitably some some of you listening are are
going to see the potential parallel thread between registering a car,
(50:29):
registering DNA, registering a firearm. If we're gonna go controversial, right, yeah,
I don't, I don't know. I mean, that's a really
interesting argument though, because you can't have an unregistered car.
But you're right though, when you start going, you know,
taking that and taking it to well, what if then
you you need a license to reproduce? Or then we
(50:50):
start entering when we start, when we start putting our
physical forms into the into the equation and treating them
as though we as though it were a motor vehicle
or a gun or something like that, that really opens
up a lot of a lot of worm cans. It
is interesting, I am. It's so weird. I would have
been so against this, thousand percent against all of this,
(51:15):
and for some reason, somehow, as I'm getting older, oh gosh,
you guys, I'm kind of like, well, get everyone a
DNA scan and put it on a tattoo and then
their arms in their registered and if anyone does no no,
we will find you no no yes. If you no no,
then we get you. I love this voice. It sounds
(51:37):
like he's either got loose dentures or he's also eating
cottage cheese. I'm not sure there's a cottage cheese is
one of the finest foods you can eat. I would
recommend it early in the morning and laid it in
the afternoon and also early at night. Well, you know
what I have to say, thank you so much for
giving us a note of levity gracing us. Yeah, Gray
(52:00):
seen us. That was saying. I can't stop smiling at
that old man. Man. That's what happens to you get old.
You start to decide you want to give up all
your civil liberties, or at least the young whipper snappers
should right with with with those realizations. Also, your voice
changes and you start to sound like a very very
old man. Yeah, it's mostly the the testicular droup, I
(52:23):
think is what causes that. I keep trying to get
a rise out of Paul mission control decond and he's
just not even No, that's not true. You're not seeing
him from the angle that I'm seeing him. He had
a he's got a smirk, he's got a bit of
a glimmer of a smile, and as always want to
thank you for tuning in. You are the most important
(52:43):
part of the show and we would like to hear
from you. Tell us what do you think about DNA
collection and all of this stuff. Do you think they
got the right person? Do you think there's someone else
out there? What? What? What else? Do you think about
the East Area rapist? Have you ever lived in any
of those races? How did these crimes affect you growing up?
Just anything you want to talk about. Is there another
(53:05):
serial killer that you think we need to jump and
jump into a little bit deeper, or maybe information about
the Zodiac killer because that may potentially be an episode
coming up with all the the things happening right now.
In that case, talk to us. Let us know. You
can hit us up on Facebook most of the social media's,
um we are conspiracy stuff on Facebook, We're conspiracy stuff
(53:27):
show on Instagram. And if you have a cool story,
a little, a little missive uh something about growing up
in one of these areas, we would love it if
you left us a voicemail. Please. We are one eight
three three st d w y t K. You can
call that number right now, leave a message and it
might get on the air. Pretty cool. That we're exactly
(53:48):
seven digits for the for the show acronym. Yeah, I
can't believe that worked out. If you don't want to
do any of that stuff, but we really wish you'd
leave the voicemail because we want to see some action
on there. You can just write it's a good old
fashioned he out. We are conspiracy at House of Works
dot com m m m
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