May 15, 2019 • 52 mins
For most of its history, outsiders saw Keith Raniere's NXIVM as a multi-level marketing and self-help company -- a little eccentric, sure, but overall a harmless hobby for those involved. This all changed when allegations of sexual abuse, financial manipulation and cult-like practices emerged, exposing a conspiracy encompassing everyone from everyday civilians to A-list actors. So what was it like inside NXIVM, before the group's inner workings were exposed? Join the guys as they sit down with musician Jon Bryant to talk about his first-hand experience with this organization, as well as how surviving the ordeal informs his art and philosophy today.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Gradios How Stuff Works. Welcome back
(00:24):
to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Noel.
They call me Ben. We are joined as always with
our superproducer Paul Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you.
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know a very very fascinating episode. Matt.
This is something that you brought together with us and
(00:46):
it explores in a different way some of the topics
that we have touched on in our earlier shows. Oh yeah,
all all sorts of different things, everything from the nature
of human beings and how we like to exist with
one another two when that gets taken a little too
far to then how those experiences can influence and uh
(01:10):
and inspire. Yeah, we're talking about the the process of
art as well. You know, this is this is a
wide ranging This is a wide ranging thing. I know
some of us listening you are saying, guys, what what
are you actually talking about? We are not We are
not diving into these waters alone. We are joined today
(01:33):
with a very special guest, uh, the musician John Bryant,
who has a new album, Cult Classic releasing May seventeenth
of this year. You can preorder it on Amazon now.
Welcome to the show. John, Hey guys, thanks for having me. Well,
and I have to jump in really quick. Yeah, but
a very lovely opening there, But I gotta say you
(01:53):
Bury the lead ever so slight just a little bit. Yes,
we're absolutely talking about are We're talking about the things
that make human and thrive and that you know, allow
us to express ourselves. But we're also talking about a
very specific type of experience, and that's being a member
of occult and the nature of that and the term
itself and how no one in a cult calls a
cult occult, you know, and that's a movement, it's a
(02:14):
movement or it's an idea. But we have in John,
not only a very talented musician, but someone who I
don't know, if you use the term escaped, and that's
something that you here come up and maybe it's not
your experience, but someone that has been in a situation
and then is no longer in that situation. With the
Nexium group or let's call it what it is, a cult. Yeah,
(02:34):
as you said earlier, I don't feel like I ever
had to escape it, but it was, it was it
was harder to leave than I thought I should say. Yeah, well, okay,
so I want to get into that a little bit
more just escaping, more as a symbolic thing of maybe
your your own you know, your thoughts and your thought
(02:55):
processes and everything. But that's again that that might be
a strong word because ultimately a out of people, um
are able to find the silver lining in that kind
of thing. But let's let's jump in here and let's
talk about something that's a little more general level or
a little higher level. UM. Let's talk about tribalism. And
(03:15):
you know, we we we as humans are solitary. Sometimes
some of us, like, uh, like a few of us
in this room here are a little more introverted and
like to be by ourselves at times. But ultimately we're
looking for connection with other people, and you know, with
our interconnected world. Now it's all in these black screens
(03:37):
rather than or at least mostly on these black screens
rather than in person. And uh, just what what do
you think about that? Where? How do you feel about
society right now, John, And and kind of where we
are with our interconnectedness, Well, I mean you walk outside
and I now kind of intentionally bump into people when
(03:58):
they're looking on their phones and walking because it's everywhere
people are. People are inundated with information and they're addicted
to it. So, um, they're kind of in this in
this bubble of of information and they can go to
whatever idea or ideology that they want and get sucked
in so easily because we have these devices that reinforce
(04:20):
those beliefs and and reinforce a feeling of I guess
importance and value. So so the more value you get
out of that device or that you know, just speaking
about bones for instance, it's just it's it's everywhere, you know,
and then it's spread in the politics obviously and another
other aspects of life. But yeah, it's everywhere I look, man,
(04:41):
And especially after this experience, UM, I pick it up
a little more in Tuneto that there's there's some incredible
stuff that we we found reading about your experience and
your journey. One line in particular really stuck out to me. John.
It was the it was the new that falling into
(05:01):
a belief system is like dying in your sleep. You
don't notice it when it happens. And something about that
struck me profoundly, and I think it ties into the
point about the ubiquity of smartphones. It's strange how quickly
the oddest things become normal for our species, you know.
(05:22):
And with that in mind, I was wondering, could you
could you tell us a little bit about your UM,
your initial encounters and how you how you came to
uh find yourself from Seattle to Vancouver, and how you
got involved with this group initially. Sure. So, I'm originally
(05:43):
from the East Coast of Canada. UM, and about nine
years ago I moved to Seattle. UM. I moved out
there for a girl, and UH I got married and
then I got divorced a year later. UM. It was
a it was a it was one of those mistakes
that I kind of reference and did what I did.
It's just, you know, one of those moments in life
when I when I when I just trusted and fell
(06:07):
into something that I shouldn't have fallen into. UM. Fast
forward about a year and a half, two years, UM
I decided to move back to Canada, but I moved
to Vancouver and UM sort of set up shop there.
I didn't know a lot of people. Um. I love
searching for new experiences and new um new groups and
new new friends. And so I found myself in Vancouver
(06:29):
kind of lonely and kind of just uh, in this
weird place that I hadn't been to in a long
or I hadn't been in it a long time. So um,
so I started making friends. I had some uh, some
people talk to me about this group that they were
part of, and it was it was kind of exclusive,
and it was all about bettering oneself, bettering the world.
(06:51):
It's about you know, growing your business. It opens you
up to new opportunities. It's been the best that this
is how it was explaining to me. It was the
best thing that that that these people had ever had
ever been introduced to. And these are people that I trusted,
people that I was I had been close to, these
are some of the One of the few people that's
the one that recruited me was somebody that I've known
(07:12):
for for a few years at that point. So it
took a few months of persuasion and you know, the
pitch of of of what are you waiting for? You know,
every moment you wait, you're losing out on this opportunity.
It's it's you know, wouldn't you if you knew you
could change your life in in in the most impactful ways,
(07:33):
wouldn't you spend a couple a couple of thousand dollars
to just do that? To to be able to control
your emotions, to be able to control your anger. I
have like an anger problem, or I did at that time,
And so they kind of they kind of target your
weaknesses and then, um find a way to persuade you
(07:53):
to overcome those and become a part of this group.
And that's just in the recruitment process, before you were
even involved with the group officially. Oh yeah, yeah, that
was in the recruitment process. Yeah. There's this contagious energy
you know when you when because we all want to
belong to something larger than ourselves, right. I think, as
(08:16):
you noted earlier, this was another quote that really stuck
out to me. To be an occult is to be human, um,
And there's something with that, you know. To Matt's point
about tribalism, I'm wondering, when did you begin to feel
that maybe something was was a miss, Like when did
you get you know, the spidy Sense moment or the
(08:39):
twilight Zone music ever playing. Was Was there a moment
or was it a gradual process of disassociation. I think
that the first week of introduction, the intro course that
they do, it's it's a five day intensive. You show
up at seven o'clock in the morning and sometimes you'll
be staying until one or two a m. And that
(09:00):
will go on for five days straight. So there's there's
the the sleep deprivation UM that they kind of take
you through. And then they they limit your ability or
your They discourage leaving the room when things are going on,
when discussions are being talked about. They want you stay
engaged in the room, listening to the information that's being disseminated.
(09:21):
So we were never really like we were given water breaks,
but they were they were few and far between, and
then we'd have lunch and dinner UM. So I think
around the first few days, UM, I started to feel
strange because you show up in the morning, you know,
(09:41):
you'll be hanging out a bit, and then you go
in the room, UH, and there'd be a plaque on
the wall, a big, big plaque with UM text that
reads UM something to the tune of we promised to
like a bunch of it was basically a mantra to
keep um saying, we won't spread the this information to
anyone who's not a part of this group. We won't
(10:03):
talk about it. So it's like kind of like the
fight club moment where I was like, oh god, this
feels this feels strange. And at first I was like, oh,
this is kind of weird, but I'll get over it.
And then as it went on, I think it got worse,
but at the same time I was enjoying it. So
it was hard to Uh, it was hard to just
(10:24):
to let that aspect dictate um, my final decision. You
know what I was gonna do when the week was
over and if I was going to continue on with it, right, Um,
So it was tricky. And then they have the secret
handshakes and they have um wait really yeah, uh oh yeah, yeah,
oh my gosh, okay, Well you can't you can't describe
(10:44):
that to us, right, I don't think I can't. I mean,
I don't know. I probably shouldn't. Um, it was strange,
I think, um yeah, there was there was some weird
nuances about that group that it was just this weird
like moment of Oh there, this is mind control, just
(11:06):
mind control one on one now. It was just so
funny thinking about it now, it's been a few years,
but I really enjoyed that week, and I can't get
away from that. I can't get away from the fact
that I like to the learning aspects. I like the people,
I liked the the group atmosphere. I like the tribalism
to a point, you know, to the point where I
(11:28):
consider I decided to go on for a few more
months with it, and that those are those weird, strange
behaviors and nuances didn't didn't bother me as much as
I now think they should. M John, tell tell me
more about the interactions between you and the other members.
(11:49):
Are the other people who were joining up? What is
that like? Did you get a sense early on that
there is a very specific pattern of beliefs that shared
almost immediately or is it something that when you're talking
to maybe I don't even know what the superior what
what would a superior person look like in the group,
(12:09):
like someone who's actually teaching. Um, I guess I want
to know more about the structure of it. Yeah, So
they talked in the first day about the hierarchy of
the structure of the group, and they related it to
the military and to school systems. You know, you have
the students, they have teachers, they have the deing of
the president, you know, and and the military is the
same thing, and they wear uniforms. We had sashes around
(12:31):
our necks, the velvety kind um scarves that we wore
around our necks. So in the room there were the beginners,
we were the new people, and we wore the yellow sashes,
and then the next group up, I can't remember the color,
but they were the moderators of the groups. So we
we we'd sit in a classroom setting, we'd watch a
video and then we'd go off break into groups and
(12:54):
talk about what was going on. Um, what we what
we you know, we would explain what we're saying. So
if they bring up the idea of belief, you know,
what is belief? And then we go into a group
and talk about, Okay, what is belief actually means? Can
we can we decide on on one definition one thing
and then we ten minutes talking about that. Then we
(13:14):
go back and to be what is truth and what
you know? So it's philosophical it's it's a psychological kind
of learning that you'd be doing in a group setting,
So you have a moderator and then the next group
up for the next level would be so level three,
I guess I can't remember the exact names for the levels,
but they had the the people that were in charge
(13:35):
of that UM Cities headquarters, so there would be that group,
and then the next group up after that would be
the teachers from all the need that they would send out,
So we had one of those that was teaching the
entire week. Wow, okay, so sashes sashes. I I guess
(13:56):
I've never had a good visual for for that particular
or group, but I can actually see it now. It
makes me is there is there some kind of like
hierarchy sort of like belts and karate or something like that,
you get a different one depending on your level. I'm
just this is just like a shot in the dark question,
And that's exactly That's exactly it. Yeah, that's that's probably
the most similar to what to what their system was,
(14:19):
the karate, uh hierarchy. So we have different colored belts,
but they were sashes. And we'll continue our exploration of
nexium with John Bryant after a word from our sponsor,
and we're back. One thing that's inspiring about this is,
(14:43):
you know, a lot of our listeners out there have
have delved into the stories of people who joined these
kinds of movements and then later become disillusioned, and you
while you hear a ton of different UH experiences, one
thing that's inspiring about this, at least from from my perspective,
(15:06):
is that it sounds as if you have you have
found UH useful knowledge through this, and it sounds like
it sounds like you were able to come away with
some positive lessons. Would you say that's accurate, That's absolutely accurate. Yeah.
I have no regrets about joining, and I have no
regrets about about the time I was in that group.
(15:30):
I think I think if I had staying longer, I
would have had regrets because there was more money to
be spent and there was time that they wanted from me,
you know. But I feel like I got in, I
had that experience and wrote it out for an appropriate
amount of time that that I got enough and for me,
I got enough about what was going on there that
(15:51):
I felt it was okay to leave. And I'll feel lucky.
I feel fortunately because I wanted to continue. But yeah,
and I appreciate that perspective. You know, if if you
if something is doing what you set out to accomplish,
then there's no reason to leave. But um or there's
no reason to think negatively about it. But knowing what
(16:12):
you know now about Keith and about the things that
were happening behind the scenes, I mean, were you aware
of any of that, of of some of the way
he was treating women and some of the kind of
recruitment that was a little bit more strong arm, kind
of borderline human trafficking kind of going on. Like was
this all shocking to you or what? What was your
perspective on that? Yeah, but I think the information that
came out was quite shocking because they painted a picture.
(16:35):
I never met Keith, but they really painted a picture
of him as being um the white dolly Lama. He
was the most ethical. They they actually said this that,
you know, the most ethical and the most um the
smartest and most most ethical man alive. He was a
master problem solver. He graduated at the top of his
(16:55):
class with three degrees. You know, they went through this
whole list of accomplishments that keep that you know, he's
learning to speak in full sentences by the age of
one um classically trained piano. He could speak so many languages.
But it was some of it was came out to
be what what I what I've read is untrue, like
people that knew him in school and us. His gradesp
(17:17):
apparently was two point two six. So I don't think
it's very good She's nope. But at the same time,
I mean, he he was. He was kind of revered.
I believe he was referred to as Vanguard and he
you know, they celebrate his birthday and called it V Day.
I mean, it's very much a worshipt worshiping kind of scenario.
Did that part strike he was odd? Did you come
(17:37):
from a background of like Eastern religion and that, so
it was maybe something along the lines of something that
you'd already been, you know, immersed in or I'm just
wondering what the jump was from seeing this and not
thinking it was a little strange. Yeah, No, I thought
the Vanguard thing was very strange because in the room
in the learning room, which had which had a higher
(17:58):
value than the rooms outside of of of that room
in the in the building that we were in, that room,
the specific room where we were learning, was to be respected,
and and there the bows before and after you'd leave,
So there were you know, the leaders of you or
the teachers, and some of the people that um ran
that that headquarters they bow when they leave. And then
(18:21):
I'd see people like my peers starting to do that,
and I'm like, oh, this is so strange. So you
say you did think that part was strange, But what
was your background that maybe made an organization like this
a little more palatable than maybe someone who came across
him was like, hau, I don't know, this is a
this is a little odd like it to me from
the start just reading about it, it it feels like a
scientology kind of situation, which I know is accepted by many.
(18:44):
And I just want to put out there that sixteen
thousand people in the US and Mexico took these courses,
so you are not alone. And this was not a small,
tight knit group. This was a very widespread a lot
of people, yeah, and a lot of them doctors and
lawyers and all sorts all of life. So back to yeah,
having to say vanguard. So in the room, which you
(19:06):
know I was saying, was to be revered, and respected
as the learning room. We would have to refer to
Vanguard or what this name, Keith, We had to refer
to Keith as as Vanguard. But outside of that room
we could say Keith. So that was that was weird
and I that was immediately. I was just I said,
I remember saying Keith, and then someone correcting means no, no,
it's Vanguard, you know, since this room is sacred. That
(19:30):
was the the kind of suggestions that were pushed my
way when I when I pushed up against it. And
we know that the there's such power in ritualism and symbolism,
and and our brains, you know, are are hardwired to
seek out that kind of structure. But in the case
(19:53):
of of Keith, or excuse me, in the case of Vanguard,
um we what what we find is that of eventually,
you know, as you said, eventually a lot of people started,
uh started finding plot holes in the official narrative right
of his talents, of his intelligence. And before we went
(20:14):
on the air today, John, we were chatting just a
little bit. Uh, Keith is actually as we record this
today on trial, is that correct? That's correct? Yeah, I
was reading the the story about it just now as well,
right before we came on the air, I was treating
what they were saying, and Yeah, what a day did this? Did? Uh?
(20:37):
Did the fact that it goes yea to the fact
that this has actually gone to trial. U when when
you first heard about, you know, the allegations and the
um the legal problems, was any of it? Was any
of it deeply surprising to you? Because it sounds like
by the time a lot of this stuff had come out,
(20:59):
you had already sort of moved on from the organization. Yeah.
I had been out for I'd say seven months at
that point. I think it was March Febuary tween seventeen.
I got a call about it. The one who recruited me,
My friend called and said, I just want you to know,
heads up, there's going to be some information coming you
(21:20):
up very soon. And and in short, she just said,
I've left the group, I left Mexican and um and
the information is quite a disgusting And then she didn't
say much more, and I was like, oh my, oh
my god, Like okay, So I just started googling and
and then the next day, two days more information came out.
(21:41):
And my friend Sarah is the one who whistle blew everything.
So oh my gosh, I applaud her. Wow, okay, um,
I I just have a couple of questions that aren't
even that important, but I'm just interested. Um, roughly, how
much did it cost? Roughly how much did it cost
to you know, join the group and then like be
(22:03):
there for however many weeks? So for the first week
it costs twenty four US I believe. Yeah, that's interesting.
I've seen some sources saying each course was upwards of
five thousand that have been for the whole course, So
it's like a multi week course that would be a
two week Yeah, that that'd be more of a two
(22:23):
weeks thing. They showed you five thousands and people did.
I mean, there were countless courses you could take weekend retreats,
and they'd all be so expensive. And that was I
think the financial um cost was one of the major
factors in me getting out this before you know all
this information, you know, it was just like, I'm a musician, man,
(22:44):
My my income is limited. You know, I can't afford
I can't afford a five thousand dollar weekend, and and
why would I go to Albany? At least let's go
to the Bahamas. You know, like, I really enjoy this.
It makes it's in a way that you would have
a lot of you know, doctors and lawyers and accomplished
(23:05):
musicians and other people who are joining it. Because there
is that paywall. It is kind of scary. We've heard
we've heard stories before in the past of people wanting
so badly to be in an organization like this that
you know, loans will be taken out and um, really
deteriorating financial situations. Yeah, there's there's also a bit of
(23:27):
a I guess a sunk cost fallacy that happens with people.
You know, when you get so involved, if you've spent
tens of thousands of dollars on something you know, you
you get to where where it might psychologically feel like
a point of no return. However, in your case, John,
(23:47):
in your case, UM, one thing that really um again,
I think I'm overusing the word inspired, but one thing
that inspired us was that you have used, in part
your experiences with this organization as UM as a way
to to to light the fire of your own artistic
(24:10):
exploration and expression. You you made it through this experience,
and would you say that this has informed the music
that you're making now. Yeah. Absolutely. When I found out
it was a cult, my immediate kind of thoughts were, um,
oh wow, I know what I can I know what
(24:30):
I'm going to be writing about for a while. Um.
And it was hard to get away from because I
started writing songs about my experience and then trying to
write outside of that, my outside of the the concept
of a cult was hard. It became hard for me
during during the months that had passed, um since since
the information came out. And I never intended to write
(24:52):
a concept album and it's not it's not really strictly
a concept album, but it's it's very influenced by my experience,
and um, I do make reference most of the songs
to tribalism or called called behavior called you know, outside
of the typical idea of what it called his in
society and how we kind of pick and choose what
(25:13):
we want to believe. We'll just reinforce that to till
the cascome home, you know. Yea, So yeah, that's that,
that is definitely in there. Mhmm. Well let's let's get
into this a little more. We you mentioned the song,
or we both mentioned the song did what I did,
and that is on the album correct, mm hmm. Okay,
so this one you said it was influenced a bit
(25:34):
by by your previous relationship. Um, let's let's go ahead
and just as everybody together as a tribe. Let's listen
to a clip from Did What I Did, and we'll
come right back. I do what I did because I
(26:13):
wanted to. If that's so good? Cat that after two
so I was hat free, but I kept inside my
winner and you wi to hide your life's wrong and
(26:39):
I know just bads it shout. I've fought it out
and I've got no w's the nation, but I don't
know what the same love game away on. Okay, So
(27:17):
in my mind, John, that song it's fantastic. By the way,
that hook I've been singing in my car a lot,
uh loudly and and and arrange that I'm unable to
hit there's yeah. Yeah, it's really really good though, and
uh it's just okay. So you told us a little
(27:40):
bit about about what it is about. But is that all?
Is that fully encompassed or is there? Um, is there
anything else that's going into this song? The video, the
music video, you can go online right now and watch
it if you have a computer near you. It is
wonderful with with children. It's a bunch of children at
(28:00):
school who have done something terrible and they're they're taking
school photos, and it's really great to see the kids
dancing in this in their moment of rebellious, like their
rebellious nature to do something small like t peeing a
car or something um and then watching them have a
(28:21):
like regret in that moment that they're taking the school photos.
So like, did you have that feeling at some point
of reveling in something than leading to just full on regret. Yeah,
I have. I mean, I've had a number of those
experiences through my life. Yeah. But the idea of regret
(28:42):
is I'm not I'm not certain if if I'm totally
if I'm totally regretful of Yeah. I mean I think
I said earlier like I'm I don't regret going in it.
But there was an element of of of Shane. I
think that that started to me eight as the information
came out, like, oh man, I'm I was a part
(29:04):
of this in some way. You know, I wasn't a
part of anything that was going on, of course, but
but I paid money into this and I supported this man,
and these people that did these things, these horrible, disgusting
things to these people. So there was, you know, the
rebellion of of of And I guess I didn't mention earlier.
(29:25):
Like I grew up in church. I grew up in
a Protestant kind of Baptist denomination, um. And and then
I post divorce in two thousand thirteen, I kind of
left the church and I stopped, I stopped being a
part of it. And this sort of this organization sort
of filled that void in some way, or so I
thought it would. Yeah, well, I I guess just the
(29:47):
song is so great, and you know that that main
the main lyric of I did what I did because
I wanted to. Um. Yeah, it's just rings so true
for for I think all of us in a lot
of the things we do. We we live our lives,
and we to the best of our ability, we do
what we would like to do. Um. You know what
(30:08):
the consequences of these things are, they always exist in
It's that butterfly effect, right, um man. Oh, it's really
really good. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna say here
and just keep the listening to it in my mind
for a little bit. You guys, go ahead and talk
for a while. Okay. So, UM, what we're touching on
here is is a a very personal specific story, but
(30:34):
it's also a touchstone for larger questions that it seems
our our species has um quarreled with for a long
time and continues to do one thing that we thought
would be UM of crucial importance to our audience here
is to to hear any advice you have for people
(30:58):
who are maybe involved in organization that that might be
damaging to them, or have a loved one who is
involved in something. Do you have do you have any
um any insight on how how people would um navigate
that kind of situation. Yeah, that's a great question. You
(31:18):
can't come at it as an adversary because you'll just
get shut down. There's there's no conversation, there's no constructive
conversation UM that would happen after, you know, if you
came in and as an adversary as somebody's critical of
the organization. UM. But it's it's a matter of getting
(31:39):
people to realize that there's there's something outside of it,
which is tricky and it's hard to do. But it's
all also very specific to that person. So, UM, what
I think why called flourish is because um, a lot
of people don't have safe places to go to or
they don't feel like they have safe places to go to,
and they don't have that if you have to fall
(32:00):
back on, if they left the cult they have, if
they don't have any or fall back on, they're only
going to become more invested in it. You know. I
think to turn away from something like a cult that
that eventually becomes your family, your social group, your your
entired um, your your entire life for evolves around this
(32:20):
this ideology and these people, Um, it's it's tough to
leave that, but it's not impossible, and it's you know
a lot of people do it. They just need people.
And I think it's I think what it comes down
to is love. And you know, it's it's a cliche
thing to say, but but people that that that leave
they have those They have people around them that that
care enough to to walk with them even through the
(32:44):
time when they're in it so deep, and they'll help
them come out. I mean, that's that's I guess. It's
just to be present and not um and not exclude
that person from their life as they have um there,
you know, their family or their friends. Then again, a
lot of people in the in the group kind of
(33:05):
cut off communication with that family. How difficult was it
to physically break away from the group. Were you pursued
at all? Yeah? Yeah, they I got calls and I
got I got questions from the the Albany office as
well as um my friend who is who is kind
(33:27):
of my recruit recruiter rather and she was asking if
I was going to be coming back at any point,
and I just I kind of kept putting it off.
The more I was out of it, the more I realized, oh,
I don't think I need this. I got what I
I got some information that I I thought was good
and the people were nice, but I didn't I wasn't um.
(33:51):
We weren't living in such close quarters that they became family.
The more time that passed that I was away from
it was, the easier it became to detach. And that
was I think about six months after I started was
it was when I really kind of like just quick going, Hey,
we're just going to jump in here and take a
quick word from our sponsor. Then we'll get right back
into it and we're back with John Bryant. Were there
(34:22):
any other red flags that occurred to you when you
were inside the organization other than the vanguard and some
of the weird language and some of the spaces, because
I mean, you were in it, like more from the
perspective of getting being a self help situation? Right? Is that?
Is that how you would characterize it? Yeah? Yeah, just
from a learning standpoint, I thought it was a really
interesting thing to do. So what were if any any
(34:43):
other red flags that you saw, whether it was with
talking to people that you have, any interaction with folks
that were in this inner circle, or maybe things signs
that later when you had more context you could kind
of put together maybe there was something going on that
I just didn't understand the full scope of Yeah. I
I remember telling somebody there that I'd like to tell
my girlfriends about some of this stuff, and it was
(35:06):
very like it wasn't taken well, and it was it
was highly discouraged talking about what I was learning, talking
about some stuff that I was, you know, learning through. Um.
That was really weird that that gave me kind of shivers.
Um just being being told that I can't I can't
(35:26):
talk about what I'm what I'm doing here. That was
that was the biggest thing, is like, you're taking my
freedom of speech and a way, you're you're disabling my
my autonomy because I I should be able to talk
about stuff. Did you have to sign any kind of
India or any kind of paperwork when you signed up
like that? You know, kind of codified that closed stuff? Yeah? Yeah,
(35:48):
I mean Claire Bronfman has gone after lots of people
that have talked and spoken out about what's you know,
what was going on. Even back in two thousand twelve,
there were some things that were coming some odd uh
I don't know exactly what it was, but but she
she sued people. She really went after you. And she's
she's the daughter of the Seagram's uh fortune, so she's
(36:10):
a she's half a billion dollars net worth, so she
has the financial means to go after these people and
really hurt them. So a lot of people. That's why
there wasn't a whole lot of when I kind of
got into it, I did some research and I couldn't
find a whole lot about it because I think she
just went after people and and and sue them. We're
(36:34):
threatened to sue them. Wow. So the things. Okay, the
stuff that they literally don't want you to know. Um,
people are being prosecuted for that stuff right now. But
when it gets to the when it gets to the
I guess the spiritual belief system or the higher higher
level belief system. Is there any of that that we
(36:55):
can talk about? Where is that all the the no,
don't talk about it stuff. Um. They didn't push any
any specific spiritual doctrines. They it seems they seemed pretty humanist,
like we have the potential two to be like God's
in a way. That's what it That's what it came
(37:17):
across as at least, and and Keith is the one
guy who's accessed all this knowledge. So it seems it
felt like psychology meets scientology, but without any of the reading.
So they did they did. They did these things called
e ms that were UM emotional it's exploration of meaning
you'd sit on a chair and then the the group
(37:40):
leader would walk you through, Um what yeah, an exploration.
I mean you go through you go into your childhood.
If you had some sort of hang up in your life,
say anger, or you you you can't be on time,
or you you blurt out you know such and such
at the wrong time or you know, anything that to
hang up in your life, you can go back and
you can find the moment in your life when that started,
(38:03):
and you can change that narrative. So it was it
was quasi psychology scientology kind of stuff. And and you know,
if if people had jealousy issues, they they miraculously stop
being jealous where they'd stopped getting angry. So that's really dude.
That's really interesting though, because it's also just counseling or
(38:23):
you know, I mean, it's something that a lot of
us probably need, us, myself included. So it's that's real.
That's that's fascinating. Yeah, I think now that I've done
a bit of research, you know, it's been a few years,
I've done research on what you know, the scientific community,
the psychological community have said about similar things, and it
(38:46):
seems like he just took a lot of different ideas
from different branches of of of education and psychology and science.
You just sort of like repackage and rebranded this this
belief system. You haven't really talked about it. He's being
charged for child pornography and having sex with a fifteen
(39:06):
year old and it's really gruesome stuff. Um, and he
and he got people to go along with it, and
and people knew and nothing was done well. And not
to mention this kind of subgroup that Alison Mack and
others were involved in, the kind of recruiting of the
I guess the personal yeah, the inner circle, but it
(39:27):
really felt more like recruiting personal members of some kind
of secret harem almost I guess that was just for
the leader or the vanguard. Um. How does that hit
you is? I mean that that almost seems like even
that was lower buried, more so than even the kind
of surface level strange dealings that were going on. This
(39:47):
was something that only certain people knew that was directly
you know, for the sexual supplication of this man. Yeah,
I mean that was that was quite a shock to
the system. I mean that was that was the moment
of like of shame, I think of being a part
of the group like that or being associated in any
way with that. Yeah, that that felt weird and an
(40:09):
uncomfortable feeling. Again, it just you know, allowed me to write.
And that's that's kind of what I really glean from
it was this this discomfort, So now I kind of
search out for discomfort. I want to be uncomfortable and
in life too, to a point. You know, I don't
want to I don't I don't want suffering, but I
think it's good to be uncomfortable and to be put
(40:30):
in difficult situations because well, you learned, you learned so
much from it. Absolutely agree. You know that it's funny
because sometimes we give we give cliches a rough time,
but cliches are often only cliches because they're true and
the things that we survive do make us stronger in
the end, you know. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, I've been so
(40:54):
much for sure. Well, John, we're gonna play another one
of your songs, at least a clip from it. It's
a song called Cultivated. Can you tell us about it
before we we play it, because we're going to play
the song and then we'll come back and wrap up
the show. Um, just tell us about Cultivated. Yeah. So,
Cultivated was written sort of from the perspective of a relationship,
(41:17):
but the overarching relationship of like the the cult member
to the cult is sort of what I'm sort of
using the imagery of the metaphors to emphasize that sort
of relationship. But it could be, you know, a toxic
relationship between you know, lovers or between family members. So
(41:37):
um yeah. It just emphasizes how difficult it is for
people believe. And it's about some of my friends that
were in it, and we're stuck in it for so long,
and and you've lost so much of their life and
their energy to it. Man, there's some great lyrics in
this thing. All right, well, let's go ahead and listen
to this. This is cultivated by John Bryant. M h.
(42:11):
It's suffixation. I'm cultivating it. It's not what I do,
but what you want. But now you're asking for the
primness out game. Keep you like to see me on money,
(42:37):
pagging for the silent when you scream, sticking damp to
the dance of Fieltion, hanging on to do it my love?
I like on all likely, I don't know under the
(43:09):
water fills my this ground wash has swallowed up. It's you.
You can follow from this game see secretcy Side when
(43:37):
you stream. Oh man, this is another song that is
now just rattling around in my head. Thank you so much, Sean.
Because he will not leave. It's going to be there wherever.
Oh Unfortunately, we we won't have the episode going on forever.
(44:00):
We wish we could play the whole album of folks.
You'll have to you'll have to hear it for yourselves.
But there is one last thing that we absolutely could
not could not let go while we while we had
you here with us on the show. And uh, that's
that's the music video. Let's talk a little bit about that.
(44:21):
Yeah two to me, I mean, the video is as
compelling as the song. Um it. It depicts what you
could describe as a cult kind of ritual or a
recruitment process, but it's more the kind of Manson type
cults of the sixties where there's some kind of guru
given people what presumably is LSD or could be something
(44:41):
else and it doesn't really doesn't really matter. But it
also or like you know, it's it's like almost I
look at it's like a metaphor for like this offering
of truth and then it all kind of on wines
and becomes you know, you see what this really means.
And it parallels the lyrics in the song too. Can
you kind of walk us through a little bit just
just it's also just a baptism that's actually what I see.
I see a baptism um when because I grew up
(45:04):
Christian too, But so anyway, let's just put that in there. Yeah,
I uh, you certainly touched on a lot of what
the video was intended to demonstrate, um and and growing
up Christian, you know, I used I used some of
the strange kind of offshoot Christian cult like the you
know groups that that sell these products to you know,
(45:27):
that that will heal you, or that will give you
enlightenments and will make your lives better. You'll you'll you'll
get money, or you'll get fame, or you'll get you know,
all your all your ailments will lead you. And the
idea was we we made an infommercial that that was
before the song. Now it's a separate part of the video,
I think, but you can still see it. It's on
my YouTube page where you know it's this man it was.
(45:52):
It was really weird to release it because no one
knew what was going on. We just released the infommercial first,
and then a few weeks later we released the video
with the informercial um. So people were like, what the
heck is it going on? You man, this is so weird, Um,
what are what's going on? John? And uh, But basically
it sets it up this man is super positive. He's
(46:13):
he's he's uh, he's kind of the guru type, but
he's he's sort of like a failing also sort of
a failing cult leader like he he's sort of doesn't
look like the success story that that usually cult leaders project. Um.
And then the video happens and that you see this
group lined up and they're always seeing this this this
(46:35):
magical elixir, this tincture of of whatever their dreams or
whatever they want in life. That's kind of what it represents, um,
so enlightenment or healing or whatever. And then the video
ends with them all dying, they all perish, they'll you know,
fall prey to this man, and this man uh walks away,
(46:55):
and then throughout the video, I'm kind of singing the
song and then at the end of it, I help him.
I'm the one that survived or I'm his his his protege,
and I'm filming him for his next his next video,
which is kind of throwing it back to the informercial.
So it's very dark. It's a very dark, somber video,
(47:16):
and the informercial is the complete opposite. It's very corny
and and uh and lighthearted. Yeah, see now, in my mind.
In my mind, that was taking us back in time
to show you shooting the first video with him as
like you were the you were the inside guy. Basically, yeah, exactly, Yeah, Yeah,
(47:37):
that that's that's that's also the one of the ways
that we kind of wanted it to be interpreted. Either
that or or I'm helping him on the next one.
But yes, either or either way. Super creepy and wonderful
video to an awesome song. Don't take our word for it.
You can check that out today. John Bryant, thank you
(48:00):
so much for coming on the show with us, and
thank you for introducing everyone to a peek behind the curtain.
I think we can all agree that these sorts of
experiences are always intensely personal, and it's powerful to be
able to to speak with someone who has firsthand experience
(48:23):
with things that you know, many people just read about
in the paper weeks after it happens. So again, as
I said, we'd love to play the full album on
our show, but but I don't think we could get
away with that. Network said we could, but I don't know.
We'll see. Maybe maybe after the album yeah around, Yeah,
maybe we should wait till the album's out. But in
(48:45):
the meantime, where can our listeners go if they would
like to hear more of your work or learn more
about your process in your music. Um, you can go
to my any platform that that has my music, which
would be Spotify, Apple, Pandora, Amazon, um and any of
the major ones deser in France, like it's it's everywhere.
All my music is online and you can listen for
(49:08):
free on YouTube, um or or those platforms. And then
I have a website as well that that has a
bio and all that. So people want to learn more,
please follow me on Instagram kind of on my day
to day. I'm pretty active on that and then uh yeah,
lot lots coming out though in the next few weeks
with videos and then um the album comes out on
May seventeen. So yeah, just gearing up for a big year,
(49:30):
lots of touring in North America, Europe and in Australia. Yeah,
it's very exciting. Are you. Are you touring with anybody
in particular? Uh, in Europe with Radical Face and then
in North America we're still figuring that out, remember Radical Face.
Yeah that's awesome. Yeah, Well, let us know if you
(49:51):
make it down to Atlanta. We will. You know, it's
not the perfect city, but we have we have amazing food.
I've dealt with that I would love. I'm I'm so
sad I'm not there right now. We were hoping to
do it in person, but maybe we can do it again.
And either way, hit us up when your back and
we'll have a beer and just chat more about music
(50:12):
and cults. Yes, and we want to come to your concert,
so yeah, just let us know. In the meantime, I'll
join another cult and then write another album so we
can do this again in two years. Yeah, sounds like
you're really taking one for the team, my friend. Okay,
good because I was next up in our cult rotation,
so I'll dodge that one, okay. So thanks as thanks
(50:34):
as always to our super producer Paul Mission Controlled Decond.
Thanks to you, John Bryant. Check out the music stay
tuned for the album coming out in May. We want
to hear your stories, folks, your personal experiences with the organizations.
When did you learn that something you thought was maybe
(50:54):
self help or multi level marketing or something. When did
you learn that there was something amiss? You can let
us know about your stories on our Facebook page. Here's
where it gets crazy or Instagram or Twitter. We're all
over the place on the internet. Yeah, and if you
don't want to do that stuff, you can call us
and leave a voicemail. You get three minutes. Uh, it's
it's pretty great. You can leave five three minute messages
(51:16):
if you want to tell us a whole story, or
you can keep it super brief. Either way, we'd be
happy to hear from you, and you might get on
the air. Our number is one eight three three st
d w y t K. I've been listening to messages
all week. Y'all are amazing. Keep doing it. Uh, okay,
But if you don't want to leave a message, you
don't want to do that stuff, you don't like social media,
(51:37):
you can also contact us the good old fashioned way.
We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. M Stuff
(52:03):
they Don't Want You to Know is a production of
iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my
heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Gradios How Stuff Works. Welcome back
(00:24):
to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Noel.
They call me Ben. We are joined as always with
our superproducer Paul Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you.
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know a very very fascinating episode. Matt.
This is something that you brought together with us and
(00:46):
it explores in a different way some of the topics
that we have touched on in our earlier shows. Oh yeah,
all all sorts of different things, everything from the nature
of human beings and how we like to exist with
one another two when that gets taken a little too
far to then how those experiences can influence and uh
(01:10):
and inspire. Yeah, we're talking about the the process of
art as well. You know, this is this is a
wide ranging This is a wide ranging thing. I know
some of us listening you are saying, guys, what what
are you actually talking about? We are not We are
not diving into these waters alone. We are joined today
(01:33):
with a very special guest, uh, the musician John Bryant,
who has a new album, Cult Classic releasing May seventeenth
of this year. You can preorder it on Amazon now.
Welcome to the show. John, Hey guys, thanks for having me. Well,
and I have to jump in really quick. Yeah, but
a very lovely opening there, But I gotta say you
(01:53):
Bury the lead ever so slight just a little bit. Yes,
we're absolutely talking about are We're talking about the things
that make human and thrive and that you know, allow
us to express ourselves. But we're also talking about a
very specific type of experience, and that's being a member
of occult and the nature of that and the term
itself and how no one in a cult calls a
cult occult, you know, and that's a movement, it's a
(02:14):
movement or it's an idea. But we have in John,
not only a very talented musician, but someone who I
don't know, if you use the term escaped, and that's
something that you here come up and maybe it's not
your experience, but someone that has been in a situation
and then is no longer in that situation. With the
Nexium group or let's call it what it is, a cult. Yeah,
(02:34):
as you said earlier, I don't feel like I ever
had to escape it, but it was, it was it
was harder to leave than I thought I should say. Yeah, well, okay,
so I want to get into that a little bit
more just escaping, more as a symbolic thing of maybe
your your own you know, your thoughts and your thought
(02:55):
processes and everything. But that's again that that might be
a strong word because ultimately a out of people, um
are able to find the silver lining in that kind
of thing. But let's let's jump in here and let's
talk about something that's a little more general level or
a little higher level. UM. Let's talk about tribalism. And
(03:15):
you know, we we we as humans are solitary. Sometimes
some of us, like, uh, like a few of us
in this room here are a little more introverted and
like to be by ourselves at times. But ultimately we're
looking for connection with other people, and you know, with
our interconnected world. Now it's all in these black screens
(03:37):
rather than or at least mostly on these black screens
rather than in person. And uh, just what what do
you think about that? Where? How do you feel about
society right now, John, And and kind of where we
are with our interconnectedness, Well, I mean you walk outside
and I now kind of intentionally bump into people when
(03:58):
they're looking on their phones and walking because it's everywhere
people are. People are inundated with information and they're addicted
to it. So, um, they're kind of in this in
this bubble of of information and they can go to
whatever idea or ideology that they want and get sucked
in so easily because we have these devices that reinforce
(04:20):
those beliefs and and reinforce a feeling of I guess
importance and value. So so the more value you get
out of that device or that you know, just speaking
about bones for instance, it's just it's it's everywhere, you know,
and then it's spread in the politics obviously and another
other aspects of life. But yeah, it's everywhere I look, man,
(04:41):
And especially after this experience, UM, I pick it up
a little more in Tuneto that there's there's some incredible
stuff that we we found reading about your experience and
your journey. One line in particular really stuck out to me. John.
It was the it was the new that falling into
(05:01):
a belief system is like dying in your sleep. You
don't notice it when it happens. And something about that
struck me profoundly, and I think it ties into the
point about the ubiquity of smartphones. It's strange how quickly
the oddest things become normal for our species, you know.
(05:22):
And with that in mind, I was wondering, could you
could you tell us a little bit about your UM,
your initial encounters and how you how you came to
uh find yourself from Seattle to Vancouver, and how you
got involved with this group initially. Sure. So, I'm originally
(05:43):
from the East Coast of Canada. UM, and about nine
years ago I moved to Seattle. UM. I moved out
there for a girl, and UH I got married and
then I got divorced a year later. UM. It was
a it was a it was one of those mistakes
that I kind of reference and did what I did.
It's just, you know, one of those moments in life
when I when I when I just trusted and fell
(06:07):
into something that I shouldn't have fallen into. UM. Fast
forward about a year and a half, two years, UM
I decided to move back to Canada, but I moved
to Vancouver and UM sort of set up shop there.
I didn't know a lot of people. Um. I love
searching for new experiences and new um new groups and
new new friends. And so I found myself in Vancouver
(06:29):
kind of lonely and kind of just uh, in this
weird place that I hadn't been to in a long
or I hadn't been in it a long time. So um,
so I started making friends. I had some uh, some
people talk to me about this group that they were
part of, and it was it was kind of exclusive,
and it was all about bettering oneself, bettering the world.
(06:51):
It's about you know, growing your business. It opens you
up to new opportunities. It's been the best that this
is how it was explaining to me. It was the
best thing that that that these people had ever had
ever been introduced to. And these are people that I trusted,
people that I was I had been close to, these
are some of the One of the few people that's
the one that recruited me was somebody that I've known
(07:12):
for for a few years at that point. So it
took a few months of persuasion and you know, the
pitch of of of what are you waiting for? You know,
every moment you wait, you're losing out on this opportunity.
It's it's you know, wouldn't you if you knew you
could change your life in in in the most impactful ways,
(07:33):
wouldn't you spend a couple a couple of thousand dollars
to just do that? To to be able to control
your emotions, to be able to control your anger. I
have like an anger problem, or I did at that time,
And so they kind of they kind of target your
weaknesses and then, um find a way to persuade you
(07:53):
to overcome those and become a part of this group.
And that's just in the recruitment process, before you were
even involved with the group officially. Oh yeah, yeah, that
was in the recruitment process. Yeah. There's this contagious energy
you know when you when because we all want to
belong to something larger than ourselves, right. I think, as
(08:16):
you noted earlier, this was another quote that really stuck
out to me. To be an occult is to be human, um,
And there's something with that, you know. To Matt's point
about tribalism, I'm wondering, when did you begin to feel
that maybe something was was a miss, Like when did
you get you know, the spidy Sense moment or the
(08:39):
twilight Zone music ever playing. Was Was there a moment
or was it a gradual process of disassociation. I think
that the first week of introduction, the intro course that
they do, it's it's a five day intensive. You show
up at seven o'clock in the morning and sometimes you'll
be staying until one or two a m. And that
(09:00):
will go on for five days straight. So there's there's
the the sleep deprivation UM that they kind of take
you through. And then they they limit your ability or
your They discourage leaving the room when things are going on,
when discussions are being talked about. They want you stay
engaged in the room, listening to the information that's being disseminated.
(09:21):
So we were never really like we were given water breaks,
but they were they were few and far between, and
then we'd have lunch and dinner UM. So I think
around the first few days, UM, I started to feel
strange because you show up in the morning, you know,
(09:41):
you'll be hanging out a bit, and then you go
in the room, UH, and there'd be a plaque on
the wall, a big, big plaque with UM text that
reads UM something to the tune of we promised to
like a bunch of it was basically a mantra to
keep um saying, we won't spread the this information to
anyone who's not a part of this group. We won't
(10:03):
talk about it. So it's like kind of like the
fight club moment where I was like, oh god, this
feels this feels strange. And at first I was like, oh,
this is kind of weird, but I'll get over it.
And then as it went on, I think it got worse,
but at the same time I was enjoying it. So
it was hard to Uh, it was hard to just
(10:24):
to let that aspect dictate um, my final decision. You
know what I was gonna do when the week was
over and if I was going to continue on with it, right, Um,
So it was tricky. And then they have the secret
handshakes and they have um wait really yeah, uh oh yeah, yeah,
oh my gosh, okay, Well you can't you can't describe
(10:44):
that to us, right, I don't think I can't. I mean,
I don't know. I probably shouldn't. Um, it was strange,
I think, um yeah, there was there was some weird
nuances about that group that it was just this weird
like moment of Oh there, this is mind control, just
(11:06):
mind control one on one now. It was just so
funny thinking about it now, it's been a few years,
but I really enjoyed that week, and I can't get
away from that. I can't get away from the fact
that I like to the learning aspects. I like the people,
I liked the the group atmosphere. I like the tribalism
to a point, you know, to the point where I
(11:28):
consider I decided to go on for a few more
months with it, and that those are those weird, strange
behaviors and nuances didn't didn't bother me as much as
I now think they should. M John, tell tell me
more about the interactions between you and the other members.
(11:49):
Are the other people who were joining up? What is
that like? Did you get a sense early on that
there is a very specific pattern of beliefs that shared
almost immediately or is it something that when you're talking
to maybe I don't even know what the superior what
what would a superior person look like in the group,
(12:09):
like someone who's actually teaching. Um, I guess I want
to know more about the structure of it. Yeah, So
they talked in the first day about the hierarchy of
the structure of the group, and they related it to
the military and to school systems. You know, you have
the students, they have teachers, they have the deing of
the president, you know, and and the military is the
same thing, and they wear uniforms. We had sashes around
(12:31):
our necks, the velvety kind um scarves that we wore
around our necks. So in the room there were the beginners,
we were the new people, and we wore the yellow sashes,
and then the next group up, I can't remember the color,
but they were the moderators of the groups. So we
we we'd sit in a classroom setting, we'd watch a
video and then we'd go off break into groups and
(12:54):
talk about what was going on. Um, what we what
we you know, we would explain what we're saying. So
if they bring up the idea of belief, you know,
what is belief? And then we go into a group
and talk about, Okay, what is belief actually means? Can
we can we decide on on one definition one thing
and then we ten minutes talking about that. Then we
(13:14):
go back and to be what is truth and what
you know? So it's philosophical it's it's a psychological kind
of learning that you'd be doing in a group setting,
So you have a moderator and then the next group
up for the next level would be so level three,
I guess I can't remember the exact names for the levels,
but they had the the people that were in charge
(13:35):
of that UM Cities headquarters, so there would be that group,
and then the next group up after that would be
the teachers from all the need that they would send out,
So we had one of those that was teaching the
entire week. Wow, okay, so sashes sashes. I I guess
(13:56):
I've never had a good visual for for that particular
or group, but I can actually see it now. It
makes me is there is there some kind of like
hierarchy sort of like belts and karate or something like that,
you get a different one depending on your level. I'm
just this is just like a shot in the dark question,
And that's exactly That's exactly it. Yeah, that's that's probably
the most similar to what to what their system was,
(14:19):
the karate, uh hierarchy. So we have different colored belts,
but they were sashes. And we'll continue our exploration of
nexium with John Bryant after a word from our sponsor,
and we're back. One thing that's inspiring about this is,
(14:43):
you know, a lot of our listeners out there have
have delved into the stories of people who joined these
kinds of movements and then later become disillusioned, and you
while you hear a ton of different UH experiences, one
thing that's inspiring about this, at least from from my perspective,
(15:06):
is that it sounds as if you have you have
found UH useful knowledge through this, and it sounds like
it sounds like you were able to come away with
some positive lessons. Would you say that's accurate, That's absolutely accurate. Yeah.
I have no regrets about joining, and I have no
regrets about about the time I was in that group.
(15:30):
I think I think if I had staying longer, I
would have had regrets because there was more money to
be spent and there was time that they wanted from me,
you know. But I feel like I got in, I
had that experience and wrote it out for an appropriate
amount of time that that I got enough and for me,
I got enough about what was going on there that
(15:51):
I felt it was okay to leave. And I'll feel lucky.
I feel fortunately because I wanted to continue. But yeah,
and I appreciate that perspective. You know, if if you
if something is doing what you set out to accomplish,
then there's no reason to leave. But um or there's
no reason to think negatively about it. But knowing what
(16:12):
you know now about Keith and about the things that
were happening behind the scenes, I mean, were you aware
of any of that, of of some of the way
he was treating women and some of the kind of
recruitment that was a little bit more strong arm, kind
of borderline human trafficking kind of going on. Like was
this all shocking to you or what? What was your
perspective on that? Yeah, but I think the information that
came out was quite shocking because they painted a picture.
(16:35):
I never met Keith, but they really painted a picture
of him as being um the white dolly Lama. He
was the most ethical. They they actually said this that,
you know, the most ethical and the most um the
smartest and most most ethical man alive. He was a
master problem solver. He graduated at the top of his
(16:55):
class with three degrees. You know, they went through this
whole list of accomplishments that keep that you know, he's
learning to speak in full sentences by the age of
one um classically trained piano. He could speak so many languages.
But it was some of it was came out to
be what what I what I've read is untrue, like
people that knew him in school and us. His gradesp
(17:17):
apparently was two point two six. So I don't think
it's very good She's nope. But at the same time,
I mean, he he was. He was kind of revered.
I believe he was referred to as Vanguard and he
you know, they celebrate his birthday and called it V Day.
I mean, it's very much a worshipt worshiping kind of scenario.
Did that part strike he was odd? Did you come
(17:37):
from a background of like Eastern religion and that, so
it was maybe something along the lines of something that
you'd already been, you know, immersed in or I'm just
wondering what the jump was from seeing this and not
thinking it was a little strange. Yeah, No, I thought
the Vanguard thing was very strange because in the room
in the learning room, which had which had a higher
(17:58):
value than the rooms outside of of of that room
in the in the building that we were in, that room,
the specific room where we were learning, was to be respected,
and and there the bows before and after you'd leave,
So there were you know, the leaders of you or
the teachers, and some of the people that um ran
that that headquarters they bow when they leave. And then
(18:21):
I'd see people like my peers starting to do that,
and I'm like, oh, this is so strange. So you
say you did think that part was strange, But what
was your background that maybe made an organization like this
a little more palatable than maybe someone who came across
him was like, hau, I don't know, this is a
this is a little odd like it to me from
the start just reading about it, it it feels like a
scientology kind of situation, which I know is accepted by many.
(18:44):
And I just want to put out there that sixteen
thousand people in the US and Mexico took these courses,
so you are not alone. And this was not a small,
tight knit group. This was a very widespread a lot
of people, yeah, and a lot of them doctors and
lawyers and all sorts all of life. So back to yeah,
having to say vanguard. So in the room, which you
(19:06):
know I was saying, was to be revered, and respected
as the learning room. We would have to refer to
Vanguard or what this name, Keith, We had to refer
to Keith as as Vanguard. But outside of that room
we could say Keith. So that was that was weird
and I that was immediately. I was just I said,
I remember saying Keith, and then someone correcting means no, no,
it's Vanguard, you know, since this room is sacred. That
(19:30):
was the the kind of suggestions that were pushed my
way when I when I pushed up against it. And
we know that the there's such power in ritualism and symbolism,
and and our brains, you know, are are hardwired to
seek out that kind of structure. But in the case
(19:53):
of of Keith, or excuse me, in the case of Vanguard,
um we what what we find is that of eventually,
you know, as you said, eventually a lot of people started,
uh started finding plot holes in the official narrative right
of his talents, of his intelligence. And before we went
(20:14):
on the air today, John, we were chatting just a
little bit. Uh, Keith is actually as we record this
today on trial, is that correct? That's correct? Yeah, I
was reading the the story about it just now as well,
right before we came on the air, I was treating
what they were saying, and Yeah, what a day did this? Did? Uh?
(20:37):
Did the fact that it goes yea to the fact
that this has actually gone to trial. U when when
you first heard about, you know, the allegations and the
um the legal problems, was any of it? Was any
of it deeply surprising to you? Because it sounds like
by the time a lot of this stuff had come out,
(20:59):
you had already sort of moved on from the organization. Yeah.
I had been out for I'd say seven months at
that point. I think it was March Febuary tween seventeen.
I got a call about it. The one who recruited me,
My friend called and said, I just want you to know,
heads up, there's going to be some information coming you
(21:20):
up very soon. And and in short, she just said,
I've left the group, I left Mexican and um and
the information is quite a disgusting And then she didn't
say much more, and I was like, oh my, oh
my god, Like okay, So I just started googling and
and then the next day, two days more information came out.
(21:41):
And my friend Sarah is the one who whistle blew everything.
So oh my gosh, I applaud her. Wow, okay, um,
I I just have a couple of questions that aren't
even that important, but I'm just interested. Um, roughly, how
much did it cost? Roughly how much did it cost
to you know, join the group and then like be
(22:03):
there for however many weeks? So for the first week
it costs twenty four US I believe. Yeah, that's interesting.
I've seen some sources saying each course was upwards of
five thousand that have been for the whole course, So
it's like a multi week course that would be a
two week Yeah, that that'd be more of a two
(22:23):
weeks thing. They showed you five thousands and people did.
I mean, there were countless courses you could take weekend retreats,
and they'd all be so expensive. And that was I
think the financial um cost was one of the major
factors in me getting out this before you know all
this information, you know, it was just like, I'm a musician, man,
(22:44):
My my income is limited. You know, I can't afford
I can't afford a five thousand dollar weekend, and and
why would I go to Albany? At least let's go
to the Bahamas. You know, like, I really enjoy this.
It makes it's in a way that you would have
a lot of you know, doctors and lawyers and accomplished
(23:05):
musicians and other people who are joining it. Because there
is that paywall. It is kind of scary. We've heard
we've heard stories before in the past of people wanting
so badly to be in an organization like this that
you know, loans will be taken out and um, really
deteriorating financial situations. Yeah, there's there's also a bit of
(23:27):
a I guess a sunk cost fallacy that happens with people.
You know, when you get so involved, if you've spent
tens of thousands of dollars on something you know, you
you get to where where it might psychologically feel like
a point of no return. However, in your case, John,
(23:47):
in your case, UM, one thing that really um again,
I think I'm overusing the word inspired, but one thing
that inspired us was that you have used, in part
your experiences with this organization as UM as a way
to to to light the fire of your own artistic
(24:10):
exploration and expression. You you made it through this experience,
and would you say that this has informed the music
that you're making now. Yeah. Absolutely. When I found out
it was a cult, my immediate kind of thoughts were, um,
oh wow, I know what I can I know what
(24:30):
I'm going to be writing about for a while. Um.
And it was hard to get away from because I
started writing songs about my experience and then trying to
write outside of that, my outside of the the concept
of a cult was hard. It became hard for me
during during the months that had passed, um since since
the information came out. And I never intended to write
(24:52):
a concept album and it's not it's not really strictly
a concept album, but it's it's very influenced by my experience,
and um, I do make reference most of the songs
to tribalism or called called behavior called you know, outside
of the typical idea of what it called his in
society and how we kind of pick and choose what
(25:13):
we want to believe. We'll just reinforce that to till
the cascome home, you know. Yea, So yeah, that's that,
that is definitely in there. Mhmm. Well let's let's get
into this a little more. We you mentioned the song,
or we both mentioned the song did what I did,
and that is on the album correct, mm hmm. Okay,
so this one you said it was influenced a bit
(25:34):
by by your previous relationship. Um, let's let's go ahead
and just as everybody together as a tribe. Let's listen
to a clip from Did What I Did, and we'll
come right back. I do what I did because I
(26:13):
wanted to. If that's so good? Cat that after two
so I was hat free, but I kept inside my
winner and you wi to hide your life's wrong and
(26:39):
I know just bads it shout. I've fought it out
and I've got no w's the nation, but I don't
know what the same love game away on. Okay, So
(27:17):
in my mind, John, that song it's fantastic. By the way,
that hook I've been singing in my car a lot,
uh loudly and and and arrange that I'm unable to
hit there's yeah. Yeah, it's really really good though, and
uh it's just okay. So you told us a little
(27:40):
bit about about what it is about. But is that all?
Is that fully encompassed or is there? Um, is there
anything else that's going into this song? The video, the
music video, you can go online right now and watch
it if you have a computer near you. It is
wonderful with with children. It's a bunch of children at
(28:00):
school who have done something terrible and they're they're taking
school photos, and it's really great to see the kids
dancing in this in their moment of rebellious, like their
rebellious nature to do something small like t peeing a
car or something um and then watching them have a
(28:21):
like regret in that moment that they're taking the school photos.
So like, did you have that feeling at some point
of reveling in something than leading to just full on regret. Yeah,
I have. I mean, I've had a number of those
experiences through my life. Yeah. But the idea of regret
(28:42):
is I'm not I'm not certain if if I'm totally
if I'm totally regretful of Yeah. I mean I think
I said earlier like I'm I don't regret going in it.
But there was an element of of of Shane. I
think that that started to me eight as the information
came out, like, oh man, I'm I was a part
(29:04):
of this in some way. You know, I wasn't a
part of anything that was going on, of course, but
but I paid money into this and I supported this man,
and these people that did these things, these horrible, disgusting
things to these people. So there was, you know, the
rebellion of of of And I guess I didn't mention earlier.
(29:25):
Like I grew up in church. I grew up in
a Protestant kind of Baptist denomination, um. And and then
I post divorce in two thousand thirteen, I kind of
left the church and I stopped, I stopped being a
part of it. And this sort of this organization sort
of filled that void in some way, or so I
thought it would. Yeah, well, I I guess just the
(29:47):
song is so great, and you know that that main
the main lyric of I did what I did because
I wanted to. Um. Yeah, it's just rings so true
for for I think all of us in a lot
of the things we do. We we live our lives,
and we to the best of our ability, we do
what we would like to do. Um. You know what
(30:08):
the consequences of these things are, they always exist in
It's that butterfly effect, right, um man. Oh, it's really
really good. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna say here
and just keep the listening to it in my mind
for a little bit. You guys, go ahead and talk
for a while. Okay. So, UM, what we're touching on
here is is a a very personal specific story, but
(30:34):
it's also a touchstone for larger questions that it seems
our our species has um quarreled with for a long
time and continues to do one thing that we thought
would be UM of crucial importance to our audience here
is to to hear any advice you have for people
(30:58):
who are maybe involved in organization that that might be
damaging to them, or have a loved one who is
involved in something. Do you have do you have any
um any insight on how how people would um navigate
that kind of situation. Yeah, that's a great question. You
(31:18):
can't come at it as an adversary because you'll just
get shut down. There's there's no conversation, there's no constructive
conversation UM that would happen after, you know, if you
came in and as an adversary as somebody's critical of
the organization. UM. But it's it's a matter of getting
(31:39):
people to realize that there's there's something outside of it,
which is tricky and it's hard to do. But it's
all also very specific to that person. So, UM, what
I think why called flourish is because um, a lot
of people don't have safe places to go to or
they don't feel like they have safe places to go to,
and they don't have that if you have to fall
(32:00):
back on, if they left the cult they have, if
they don't have any or fall back on, they're only
going to become more invested in it. You know. I
think to turn away from something like a cult that
that eventually becomes your family, your social group, your your
entired um, your your entire life for evolves around this
(32:20):
this ideology and these people, Um, it's it's tough to
leave that, but it's not impossible, and it's you know
a lot of people do it. They just need people.
And I think it's I think what it comes down
to is love. And you know, it's it's a cliche
thing to say, but but people that that that leave
they have those They have people around them that that
care enough to to walk with them even through the
(32:44):
time when they're in it so deep, and they'll help
them come out. I mean, that's that's I guess. It's
just to be present and not um and not exclude
that person from their life as they have um there,
you know, their family or their friends. Then again, a
lot of people in the in the group kind of
(33:05):
cut off communication with that family. How difficult was it
to physically break away from the group. Were you pursued
at all? Yeah? Yeah, they I got calls and I
got I got questions from the the Albany office as
well as um my friend who is who is kind
(33:27):
of my recruit recruiter rather and she was asking if
I was going to be coming back at any point,
and I just I kind of kept putting it off.
The more I was out of it, the more I realized, oh,
I don't think I need this. I got what I
I got some information that I I thought was good
and the people were nice, but I didn't I wasn't um.
(33:51):
We weren't living in such close quarters that they became family.
The more time that passed that I was away from
it was, the easier it became to detach. And that
was I think about six months after I started was
it was when I really kind of like just quick going, Hey,
we're just going to jump in here and take a
quick word from our sponsor. Then we'll get right back
into it and we're back with John Bryant. Were there
(34:22):
any other red flags that occurred to you when you
were inside the organization other than the vanguard and some
of the weird language and some of the spaces, because
I mean, you were in it, like more from the
perspective of getting being a self help situation? Right? Is that?
Is that how you would characterize it? Yeah? Yeah, just
from a learning standpoint, I thought it was a really
interesting thing to do. So what were if any any
(34:43):
other red flags that you saw, whether it was with
talking to people that you have, any interaction with folks
that were in this inner circle, or maybe things signs
that later when you had more context you could kind
of put together maybe there was something going on that
I just didn't understand the full scope of Yeah. I
I remember telling somebody there that I'd like to tell
my girlfriends about some of this stuff, and it was
(35:06):
very like it wasn't taken well, and it was it
was highly discouraged talking about what I was learning, talking
about some stuff that I was, you know, learning through. Um.
That was really weird that that gave me kind of shivers.
Um just being being told that I can't I can't
(35:26):
talk about what I'm what I'm doing here. That was
that was the biggest thing, is like, you're taking my
freedom of speech and a way, you're you're disabling my
my autonomy because I I should be able to talk
about stuff. Did you have to sign any kind of
India or any kind of paperwork when you signed up
like that? You know, kind of codified that closed stuff? Yeah? Yeah,
(35:48):
I mean Claire Bronfman has gone after lots of people
that have talked and spoken out about what's you know,
what was going on. Even back in two thousand twelve,
there were some things that were coming some odd uh
I don't know exactly what it was, but but she
she sued people. She really went after you. And she's
she's the daughter of the Seagram's uh fortune, so she's
(36:10):
a she's half a billion dollars net worth, so she
has the financial means to go after these people and
really hurt them. So a lot of people. That's why
there wasn't a whole lot of when I kind of
got into it, I did some research and I couldn't
find a whole lot about it because I think she
just went after people and and and sue them. We're
(36:34):
threatened to sue them. Wow. So the things. Okay, the
stuff that they literally don't want you to know. Um,
people are being prosecuted for that stuff right now. But
when it gets to the when it gets to the
I guess the spiritual belief system or the higher higher
level belief system. Is there any of that that we
(36:55):
can talk about? Where is that all the the no,
don't talk about it stuff. Um. They didn't push any
any specific spiritual doctrines. They it seems they seemed pretty humanist,
like we have the potential two to be like God's
in a way. That's what it That's what it came
(37:17):
across as at least, and and Keith is the one
guy who's accessed all this knowledge. So it seems it
felt like psychology meets scientology, but without any of the reading.
So they did they did. They did these things called
e ms that were UM emotional it's exploration of meaning
you'd sit on a chair and then the the group
(37:40):
leader would walk you through, Um what yeah, an exploration.
I mean you go through you go into your childhood.
If you had some sort of hang up in your life,
say anger, or you you you can't be on time,
or you you blurt out you know such and such
at the wrong time or you know, anything that to
hang up in your life, you can go back and
you can find the moment in your life when that started,
(38:03):
and you can change that narrative. So it was it
was quasi psychology scientology kind of stuff. And and you know,
if if people had jealousy issues, they they miraculously stop
being jealous where they'd stopped getting angry. So that's really dude.
That's really interesting though, because it's also just counseling or
(38:23):
you know, I mean, it's something that a lot of
us probably need, us, myself included. So it's that's real.
That's that's fascinating. Yeah, I think now that I've done
a bit of research, you know, it's been a few years,
I've done research on what you know, the scientific community,
the psychological community have said about similar things, and it
(38:46):
seems like he just took a lot of different ideas
from different branches of of of education and psychology and science.
You just sort of like repackage and rebranded this this
belief system. You haven't really talked about it. He's being
charged for child pornography and having sex with a fifteen
(39:06):
year old and it's really gruesome stuff. Um, and he
and he got people to go along with it, and
and people knew and nothing was done well. And not
to mention this kind of subgroup that Alison Mack and
others were involved in, the kind of recruiting of the
I guess the personal yeah, the inner circle, but it
(39:27):
really felt more like recruiting personal members of some kind
of secret harem almost I guess that was just for
the leader or the vanguard. Um. How does that hit
you is? I mean that that almost seems like even
that was lower buried, more so than even the kind
of surface level strange dealings that were going on. This
(39:47):
was something that only certain people knew that was directly
you know, for the sexual supplication of this man. Yeah,
I mean that was that was quite a shock to
the system. I mean that was that was the moment
of like of shame, I think of being a part
of the group like that or being associated in any
way with that. Yeah, that that felt weird and an
(40:09):
uncomfortable feeling. Again, it just you know, allowed me to write.
And that's that's kind of what I really glean from
it was this this discomfort, So now I kind of
search out for discomfort. I want to be uncomfortable and
in life too, to a point. You know, I don't
want to I don't I don't want suffering, but I
think it's good to be uncomfortable and to be put
(40:30):
in difficult situations because well, you learned, you learned so
much from it. Absolutely agree. You know that it's funny
because sometimes we give we give cliches a rough time,
but cliches are often only cliches because they're true and
the things that we survive do make us stronger in
the end, you know. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, I've been so
(40:54):
much for sure. Well, John, we're gonna play another one
of your songs, at least a clip from it. It's
a song called Cultivated. Can you tell us about it
before we we play it, because we're going to play
the song and then we'll come back and wrap up
the show. Um, just tell us about Cultivated. Yeah. So,
Cultivated was written sort of from the perspective of a relationship,
(41:17):
but the overarching relationship of like the the cult member
to the cult is sort of what I'm sort of
using the imagery of the metaphors to emphasize that sort
of relationship. But it could be, you know, a toxic
relationship between you know, lovers or between family members. So
(41:37):
um yeah. It just emphasizes how difficult it is for
people believe. And it's about some of my friends that
were in it, and we're stuck in it for so long,
and and you've lost so much of their life and
their energy to it. Man, there's some great lyrics in
this thing. All right, well, let's go ahead and listen
to this. This is cultivated by John Bryant. M h.
(42:11):
It's suffixation. I'm cultivating it. It's not what I do,
but what you want. But now you're asking for the
primness out game. Keep you like to see me on money,
(42:37):
pagging for the silent when you scream, sticking damp to
the dance of Fieltion, hanging on to do it my love?
I like on all likely, I don't know under the
(43:09):
water fills my this ground wash has swallowed up. It's you.
You can follow from this game see secretcy Side when
(43:37):
you stream. Oh man, this is another song that is
now just rattling around in my head. Thank you so much, Sean.
Because he will not leave. It's going to be there wherever.
Oh Unfortunately, we we won't have the episode going on forever.
(44:00):
We wish we could play the whole album of folks.
You'll have to you'll have to hear it for yourselves.
But there is one last thing that we absolutely could
not could not let go while we while we had
you here with us on the show. And uh, that's
that's the music video. Let's talk a little bit about that.
(44:21):
Yeah two to me, I mean, the video is as
compelling as the song. Um it. It depicts what you
could describe as a cult kind of ritual or a
recruitment process, but it's more the kind of Manson type
cults of the sixties where there's some kind of guru
given people what presumably is LSD or could be something
(44:41):
else and it doesn't really doesn't really matter. But it
also or like you know, it's it's like almost I
look at it's like a metaphor for like this offering
of truth and then it all kind of on wines
and becomes you know, you see what this really means.
And it parallels the lyrics in the song too. Can
you kind of walk us through a little bit just
just it's also just a baptism that's actually what I see.
I see a baptism um when because I grew up
(45:04):
Christian too, But so anyway, let's just put that in there. Yeah,
I uh, you certainly touched on a lot of what
the video was intended to demonstrate, um and and growing
up Christian, you know, I used I used some of
the strange kind of offshoot Christian cult like the you
know groups that that sell these products to you know,
(45:27):
that that will heal you, or that will give you
enlightenments and will make your lives better. You'll you'll you'll
get money, or you'll get fame, or you'll get you know,
all your all your ailments will lead you. And the
idea was we we made an infommercial that that was
before the song. Now it's a separate part of the video,
I think, but you can still see it. It's on
my YouTube page where you know it's this man it was.
(45:52):
It was really weird to release it because no one
knew what was going on. We just released the infommercial first,
and then a few weeks later we released the video
with the informercial um. So people were like, what the
heck is it going on? You man, this is so weird, Um,
what are what's going on? John? And uh, But basically
it sets it up this man is super positive. He's
(46:13):
he's he's uh, he's kind of the guru type, but
he's he's sort of like a failing also sort of
a failing cult leader like he he's sort of doesn't
look like the success story that that usually cult leaders project. Um.
And then the video happens and that you see this
group lined up and they're always seeing this this this
(46:35):
magical elixir, this tincture of of whatever their dreams or
whatever they want in life. That's kind of what it represents, um,
so enlightenment or healing or whatever. And then the video
ends with them all dying, they all perish, they'll you know,
fall prey to this man, and this man uh walks away,
(46:55):
and then throughout the video, I'm kind of singing the
song and then at the end of it, I help him.
I'm the one that survived or I'm his his his protege,
and I'm filming him for his next his next video,
which is kind of throwing it back to the informercial.
So it's very dark. It's a very dark, somber video,
(47:16):
and the informercial is the complete opposite. It's very corny
and and uh and lighthearted. Yeah, see now, in my mind.
In my mind, that was taking us back in time
to show you shooting the first video with him as
like you were the you were the inside guy. Basically, yeah, exactly, Yeah, Yeah,
(47:37):
that that's that's that's also the one of the ways
that we kind of wanted it to be interpreted. Either
that or or I'm helping him on the next one.
But yes, either or either way. Super creepy and wonderful
video to an awesome song. Don't take our word for it.
You can check that out today. John Bryant, thank you
(48:00):
so much for coming on the show with us, and
thank you for introducing everyone to a peek behind the curtain.
I think we can all agree that these sorts of
experiences are always intensely personal, and it's powerful to be
able to to speak with someone who has firsthand experience
(48:23):
with things that you know, many people just read about
in the paper weeks after it happens. So again, as
I said, we'd love to play the full album on
our show, but but I don't think we could get
away with that. Network said we could, but I don't know.
We'll see. Maybe maybe after the album yeah around, Yeah,
maybe we should wait till the album's out. But in
(48:45):
the meantime, where can our listeners go if they would
like to hear more of your work or learn more
about your process in your music. Um, you can go
to my any platform that that has my music, which
would be Spotify, Apple, Pandora, Amazon, um and any of
the major ones deser in France, like it's it's everywhere.
All my music is online and you can listen for
(49:08):
free on YouTube, um or or those platforms. And then
I have a website as well that that has a
bio and all that. So people want to learn more,
please follow me on Instagram kind of on my day
to day. I'm pretty active on that and then uh yeah,
lot lots coming out though in the next few weeks
with videos and then um the album comes out on
May seventeen. So yeah, just gearing up for a big year,
(49:30):
lots of touring in North America, Europe and in Australia. Yeah,
it's very exciting. Are you. Are you touring with anybody
in particular? Uh, in Europe with Radical Face and then
in North America we're still figuring that out, remember Radical Face.
Yeah that's awesome. Yeah, Well, let us know if you
(49:51):
make it down to Atlanta. We will. You know, it's
not the perfect city, but we have we have amazing food.
I've dealt with that I would love. I'm I'm so
sad I'm not there right now. We were hoping to
do it in person, but maybe we can do it again.
And either way, hit us up when your back and
we'll have a beer and just chat more about music
(50:12):
and cults. Yes, and we want to come to your concert,
so yeah, just let us know. In the meantime, I'll
join another cult and then write another album so we
can do this again in two years. Yeah, sounds like
you're really taking one for the team, my friend. Okay,
good because I was next up in our cult rotation,
so I'll dodge that one, okay. So thanks as thanks
(50:34):
as always to our super producer Paul Mission Controlled Decond.
Thanks to you, John Bryant. Check out the music stay
tuned for the album coming out in May. We want
to hear your stories, folks, your personal experiences with the organizations.
When did you learn that something you thought was maybe
(50:54):
self help or multi level marketing or something. When did
you learn that there was something amiss? You can let
us know about your stories on our Facebook page. Here's
where it gets crazy or Instagram or Twitter. We're all
over the place on the internet. Yeah, and if you
don't want to do that stuff, you can call us
and leave a voicemail. You get three minutes. Uh, it's
it's pretty great. You can leave five three minute messages
(51:16):
if you want to tell us a whole story, or
you can keep it super brief. Either way, we'd be
happy to hear from you, and you might get on
the air. Our number is one eight three three st
d w y t K. I've been listening to messages
all week. Y'all are amazing. Keep doing it. Uh, okay,
But if you don't want to leave a message, you
don't want to do that stuff, you don't like social media,
(51:37):
you can also contact us the good old fashioned way.
We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. M Stuff
(52:03):
they Don't Want You to Know is a production of
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