Grimoires: Fact and Fiction

From fictional works like the Necronomicon to the all-too-real Key of Solomon, humanity has long been obsessed with the idea of ancient tomes holding hidden, unholy and possibly dangerous secrets. But where do these grimoires come from? How many are hoaxes, and are there any legitimate works out there?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello,

(00:24):
welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my
name is Noel. They call me Ben. You or you
or at least a close approximation there of This is
stuff they don't want you to know. You've heard of
spell books before, probably right. If this is a surprise
to you, then buckle your seatbelt because this is going
to be probably one of your favorite episodes of our show.

(00:47):
So several of us are fans of horror movies. If
you are a fan of this show, you probably have
a higher statistical likelihood of enjoying horror movies. I'm a
big fan of them. Uh. And if you enjoy horror movies,
then you're also familiar with that old trope, the cursed book. Right,
what's the most famous example of the cursed book? Well,

(01:08):
the one that comes to mind for me is HP
loves Crafts Necronomicon, which is that ancient cursed book, which
is Yeah, it's a tone. It's clearly a work of
fiction because it is written by HP Lovecraft, but numerous
people have attempted to create a real necronomicon. Right, this

(01:29):
this tome of dark Eldridge magic. According to Lovecraft and
the Cadulu Mythos, it was composed by a and I'm
quoting here a half crazed Arab named Abdul al Hazred.
We should note at this point that, amongst many other things,
Lovecraft was cartoonishly racist. We've covered this, people, right, We've

(01:52):
We've covered this. And what's interesting is Lovecraft himself maintained
the book was entirely fictitious. And what we found this
will tie into some stuff later in the show, is
that despite the fact that whenever he was asked about
it by friends, family, or journalists, right, and despite the
fact that you would always say this is fictional, not

(02:12):
only did I make it up, but I didn't make
up all of it. I just made up some excerpts
for my short stories. Despite that, it got to a
point of popularity where more and more people became fans
of his cosmic horror genre and then started writing their
own necronomicons. As Matt said, and this takes a path
from fiction to fandom to reality take place in more

(02:35):
recent things like slender Man started out as pure fiction,
purely knowledge fiction that gained such notoriety that ultimately it
had real world consequence. Well, the Necronomicon has that same
effect where it's like introduced and then reused and sort
of like adjusted and adapted to different times, different personalities,
and it almost takes on a life of its own,

(02:57):
like slender Man, where even though the origin creator was like, yeah,
this is definitely fake, the more you start to see
it in different incarnations, the more than mine tends to
go to well, maybe it's not fake, you know, right, Yeah,
And that's the moral of the Necronomicon story in a way,
is just because something isn't real to take your air
quote move, doesn't mean that it is not dangerous. On

(03:19):
a lighter note, there are many other spell books in fiction,
of course, will will all recall, since we all have
impeccable taste. In films, Disney's focus focus don come to money. Yes,
and let's not forget the more malevolent yet equally hilarious

(03:41):
Necronomicon ex Mortis from the Evil Dead films, Everything's Full
or even that that creepy book with the face from
the care Bears movie. Yeah, anyone too late, too late,

(04:02):
alas spell is task No really no, I I can't
even handle that one. Well that yeah, all I was
about to say, you have thought you were saying you
were not familiar, because that is the stuff of nightmares,
my friends. Its possesses this little kid who's like the
magician's assistant, makes him do things, and the care bears

(04:23):
have to come down and do their stare, care bears, stare.
I get too far off, but that it is an
economicon of sorts, a grimoire of sorts, because if in
the way it's depicted in the film, it is a big,
thick tone that he finds in a long forgotten, dusty

(04:45):
magician's chest, and it's got all of these kind of
esoteric scrawls and different symbols all through it, and it,
you know, spawns this weird, green, bald, kind of androgynous
face that you know makes him do things straight up.
So a demon and what that you know? That reminds me.
This is a separate talk about censorship, which ties in

(05:06):
later to the car tubes of Yesteryear. I think we're
a little better because they were less sanitized, you know
what I mean. A demonic possession film marketed towards children,
where the main heroes are fuzzy teddy bears with different

(05:27):
on the tommies that can shoot out rainbow magic energy,
completely completely new. What did it even do? By the way,
what did the stair do? Did it just fill you
with goodness? It was like it was like The Heart
Ring and Captain Planet except bears. Yeah, it was. It
was overwhelming love and compassion. Yeah, it was a very

(05:49):
It was a very aggressive form of non violence because
they were shooting people technically. Now, just not to say
that a grimoire is inherently evil. Yeah. You know. Additionally,
when we talk about just the fictional stuff, we also
have another side, which would be that there are a
lot of out and out hoaxes and someone wrote something

(06:11):
and pretended they discovered some ancient source of knowledge hidden
or occulted from the public eye. Sorry, it would not
say that in such a dumb voice. Regular occulted? Was
that an editor? Was that? You know? That was just
me not wanting to sound so mpr about it. Enough.

(06:32):
Now I've got a question for you. Would you consider
we've talked about the Voytage manuscript, and I know that's
gonna come up later in the episode. But since we
don't really know, does something to be considered a hoax
have to have a hoaxer, do you have to know
who did it in order for it to be considered
a hoax? No, for something that's an excellent question. For
something to be considered a hoax, there must be something

(06:53):
about it that is marketed or propagated that is untrue.
So if you and timously wrote something and three hundred
years later Matt's descendants find it and they just don't
know you wrote it, it doesn't make it a hoax.
Like well, with the Voneage manuscript, they can't read it.
But if you wrote something that actually happened, like three

(07:15):
years ago, this happened, we don't know who you are,
it doesn't make it a hoax. If Matt wrote something
and then waited in some master plan to give it
to us and say, hey, I found this in a
grave and it's four hundred years old, that would definitely
be a hoax. But we're also sort of in the

(07:36):
realm of like you know, if I write a spell
and tell you this is a legit spell and you
can't do it, you can't recreate what I'm telling you,
it should be able to do. Is that a hoax
or you just done any good at doing magic? That's
a great question. We raised that in one of our
earlier episodes on the Occult too, because there's a there's

(07:56):
a fuzzy line here with a hoax for people who
don't believe in magic. Any book of magic written is
essentially disingenuous, right, But there are quite a few people,
maybe not as often now, but in in the span
of human history who believed that they were simply the
instrument from so for some supernatural or otherworldly being that

(08:19):
was writing through them. Is it a hoax when the
creators absolutely believe in it? You know, that's that's almost
a matter of perspective. But even let's go on further,
are there any real grim wise, meaning, are there any
books of magic created by people who genuinely believed they
were creating how to manual on, you know, the so

(08:41):
called occulted arts. Shall we have some facts then? Yes,
there are numerous examples of historical spell books. Today. These
are popularly known as what this episode is about grim
wars in the West. But you know, what we're gonna
explore here is primarily stuff that's occurring in the Western world. Um,
it's it's crucial to note though that these things exist

(09:04):
throughout the globe, throughout the planet. Uh in the east
and the north and the south, all of the cardinal directions.
You will find these. However, we would have to make
up our whole like a whole different show to cover
all of them, right, It wouldn't be just one episode
to cover all the cultures across the globe that have
their own very traditions and rituals and incantations that other

(09:27):
people might call magic. And these people might just call,
you know, their day to day life a Tuesday A Tuesday. Yeah, perfect.
So yeah, like you said, now we're sticking with Western
spell books. Grimmis first question, what's what's with the name?
That's not a name you hear every day. Scholars are
not completely sure about the etymology of this word, but

(09:50):
the most popular belief is that the term grim wi
comes from Latin via Old French grammaire, which originally just
described this This is kind of funny. It originally just
described any book written in Latin. There you go. Do
you think is there any connection to the word grammar,
perhaps like a collect language. There must be, Yeah, there

(10:11):
must be with the root and back in the day
something as mundane as a how to manual on you know,
avoiding the Play by Lord Noel Brown, or uh well,
Digging for Dummies by Duke Matt van Frederick trademark trademark,
it would also be a grim wis back then. And
then eventually in France people started just using the term

(10:34):
grimoire to mean pretty much any book that was difficult
to understand, anything there was a pain in the key
star to read. And then the big shift to where
this goes from just being a word for difficult book too.
This book has magic powers came in the nineteenth century
in uh in Britain. In England the publication of a

(10:55):
book called The Major's in eighteen o one. The British
had a old profound interest in all occult matters at
the time. You know, this is the age when people
are getting into the concept of using scientific principles to
investigate things that have once been thought to be purely
the realm of spirituality and magic. So they're interested in this,

(11:18):
and through this book the term grim wab became firmly
cemented in English as a word that meant specifically books
of magic in general. And since that point, of course,
we talked about the hoaxes and emerged, and a lot
of them ballooned after this book came out. Typically stories
take the same strokes, uh, contemporary writer. Uh, Let's say,

(11:41):
let's see, since this is an example of a of
a bad person and I kind of picked on you
guys by giving you cool books earlier. Uh, let's say
some uh slightly disingenuous person will we'll we'll call him
uh at Admiral Boland or whatever. Uh makes up a
pseudonym like Antonio Ventiana de la Rabina, who is the

(12:06):
supposed author of the Grand Grimoire, also known as the
Red Dragon. So this, this charlatan of an admiral, then
implies that this text is ancient and it's handed down
in secret for centuries millennia, or if we want to
get super weird with it, a secret pre existing civilization
that rose and fell before the biblical flood. And then

(12:27):
there's a bullet point here on the on our notes.
That's just four question marks. So that's where we're at. Yeah,
and the next step after that is profit, notoriety at cetera. Oh. Also,
by the way, I never get to use this word
the word for things that existed before the Biblical flood,
pre lapsarian. I know it's not the sexiest word, but

(12:48):
you know, it never comes up. So obviously, this proliferation
of these fraudulent texts has given the whole enterprise of
occult books a bad rap. But we also have to
remember there's a context in which so many of these
texts were made. Yeah, not only were books in general
much much rarer and more expensive, they were a commodity.

(13:09):
I mean, you had to be, you know, a bit
of a fancy pants to afford to have books, and
to have access to good quality books and books of
high academic rigor heck to read. Of course, of course
I'm putting the cart before the horse there. But yeah,
but I mean, but research as we understand it today

(13:29):
was in its infancy or pretty much did not exist.
You did not have the resources to research in the
way that we just have an embarrassment of riches via
the internet. You know, there's that in Carta Encyclopedia crom
You know those are great, um kidding, but it were
great a change. It was a game changer. But when

(13:52):
you look at it now, it feels the way you
know it must have felt to go from having a
book to having a library. You know, that's a that's
a good point. There was also this implicit degree of
trust between authors and readers, right like, after all, if
we're living in the thirteen hundreds and we're some of
the people who see a book that happens not to

(14:15):
be religious texts like the Bible, then holy smokes, of
course it's got to be true. Why would somebody spend
years handwriting this thing if it was just for fun?
Why would somebody do an elaborate troll like that? Well,
and I guess that's a big part of why. When
like things like pamphlets and tracts became widely distributed, that

(14:37):
was a great way to misinform the populace because you
could those were cheap to make. You could very easily
kind of fit some propaganda in there and have it
circulate and have that same mentality of oh, it's printed
on paper, therefore it must be the truth. Can you
imagine how those guys would have felt, those ladies and
gentlemen if they saw Facebook post let's tabletize a million.

(15:02):
So this means that, of course, while Grandmoise get a
hard time, books of magic were not the only inaccurate
things out there by any means um. But we do
know that before the British called spell books grim wise,
before the French read Latin, before even the age of
the Roman Empire, magic in some form existed around the

(15:22):
world or magical practices. Earliest precursors the books of magic
are these incantations found on clay tablets and Mesopotamia. And
that's the earliest we found so far. What would you
guys mind if we paused for a quick break before
we got into the details of that. Sounds good, cool,

(15:47):
and we're back. We're back in sixteen, but we're talking
about ancient Mesopotamia. Let's what it is. Yeah, where is
your flying car? To a suitcase? But the suitcase also flies?

(16:08):
We should have thought about all right, I got the
year wrong. It is, but back before it was even sixteen,
like way before the Greeks believed. The first people to
compile books of magic were in the Persian culture, where
a Persian tribe known as wait for it, the Magi. Yeah,

(16:31):
it's basically like magic without the sea. Hey, that is
a cool That is a cool word in term. I
don't for some reason, I love that I've actually heard
it pronounced magi and quite like there's a story of
the Gift of the Magi. I've I've heard that, I've
heard it pronounced that way. Oh, I thought, well, I know,
I think it's I think both are acceptable. Listeners, call

(16:52):
me out tell me. And there was some translation stuff too,
because in earlier text it used to be spelled m
A j I you know. So yeah, uh, folks, we're
talking about the same ones, the famous Wise Men of
the East, perhaps best known today in our neck of
the woods for their cameo during Christ's birth and the

(17:12):
Christian Bible. UM. I grew up in u classical music family,
and UM one of the sort of operas, kind of
an operetta I suppose that my mother was quite fond of. Was.
It's called a Mall and the Night Visitors, and it's
about you know what. My dad played them all for
a long term. It's it's a thing churches do it
all the time. But the Wise Men are really central

(17:35):
characters in it because they hang out a lot, and
they all have their own personalities, and one of them
has this box that he carries around that's full of
all these amazing little trinkets and and like one of
them are like a bunch of them, are these precious
stones that he considers magical and he describes them and
it's like moonstone will make you sleep, and like lapus

(17:56):
s lazuli and like all these different ones that have
these different properties that are all clearly charms. Yeah, but he,
you know, ascribed very specific effects to these stones just
by placing them near you and them all. The main
character is a boy who can't walk and has to
use a crutch, and the wise Man is trying, you know,
attempts to even cure him or implies that he could

(18:18):
cure him using some of these these trinkets as just
saying it's charms. Yeah, And that's that is because originally,
before we see the rise of the book, we're still
like talking about before the age of the book, these
spells would be inscribed on amulets and things like that.
So the Greeks believed that the first magician magi to

(18:41):
compile the cult works into a single large text or
collection was a Persian associate of King Xerxes, remember from
three hundred Okay, yeah, I think that's not entirely in
accurate film, Uh, but there was a magician the story goes,

(19:03):
named Austen's, and during xerxes failed war with Greece around
Fo b c E. This magician allegedly scattered the seeds
of what would become much of the world's modern in
the time of the Greek's understanding magical thinking. Also, the
in this story the magi learned their arts. They are

(19:26):
called arts from Zaraster, So this is a tie in
with the earlier religion of Zarastrianism. I was gonna say, yeah,
so I've heard that mentioned in several places on the net,
that those guys were on the net. On the net,
you're on the net. That's nothing but a bunch of pamphlets.
That's my favorite Sandra Bullock film. You know, I rewatched

(19:50):
Speed and it doesn't hold up. Uh So today, as
we said, they're they're thought to be. Grimoire is like
an umbrella term for different types of magical knowledge, and
it can include everything from you know, how to create
charms allah the magi, how to perform spells, practice divination,
which is a big one, summon supernatural entities, angels, spirits, demons, domino.

(20:16):
We actually have a grimoire that we have to use
every single time we podcast with Ben because he does
you know, we have to you know, summon him. He
has to materialize from his interdimensional what do you call it?
Lairg uh. Just so you guys know, in three separate
grimoire I found spells to ward against cattle witching and

(20:40):
uh diabolical mischief, and cattle had a word against it.
It's pretty it was a big problem. He's a big problem. Oh,
we want to thank everybody who wrote listener mail to
us about that. What occurred to me, like, how come
supernatural entities and extraterrestrial entities alike can't quit messing with
the damn cattle. Well, that's a great question. Snatching babies,

(21:03):
stealing cattle. And there's there's a there's a troubling and
compelling argument about how closely older descriptions of the fay
or fairy folk can jibe like almost a one on
one correlation with stories about UFOs. But you know what, man,
maybe it's maybe it's like you know, how you follow

(21:25):
the money and in politics, maybe we follow the cattle
and do uf ufo. I'm just really fast. I want
to say how how important the cattle were. Two people's
of the times when a lot of this were absolutely
and so if anything is going wrong, if you're not

(21:45):
getting milk correctly, or if there's blood in the milk,
or you know, whatever small ailment the cow has, that's
going to be the biggest problem that your whole you
know group is experiencing at that time. Sure, yeah, I
mean it's easy for some people who don't who have
not lived in an agricultural environment to you know, we
can we can poke fun at this, and it's all

(22:05):
it's all a good nature. But it's sort of the
idea of let's say, if your family owns cattle, right,
they're probably pretty well to do in many ways, but
think of it like your your father or your mother
would then be the same thing as like they own
a small car lot. Every single one of those is

(22:26):
super important. And if something goes wrong, then it's food
out of your mouth. Yeah exactly, except in this case
instead of cars, you're literally drinking and like consuming yeah,
the byproduct. So yeah, I gotta live. And and so
these books were like compendiums, almanacs, reference works of all

(22:48):
this other stuff that existed oral traditions. Sometimes the books
themselves were believed to be imbued with magic powers, not
just the stuff you would read or do from the
manuals or the grim but the physical object. And there's
a special note here that I think is important. We're
lucky to have listeners of all spiritual stripes or no

(23:10):
spiritual stripes on this show. And like that Preacher character
and Poultergeist said, all they're welcome, All they're welcome place
your heart, Yes, your heart exactly. And then he said, oh,
oh that's a good film. But so you might be
hearing this talk of magical books, either on this episode

(23:33):
or another episode, and wonder, you know, hey, how do
spiritual reference works fit into you know, holy text and stuff?
Why I was wondering that Ben great, Well, no time,
like the president, technically these would not be considered grimoise.
In fact, many people would consider the correlation to be offensive.

(23:54):
Right Uh, in the current day, they're definitely not consider that.
But many do contain either x flurations of the occult
or mentions of the occult. You know, there are characters
that are fortune tellers, soothsayers, uh practices of witchcraft, and
some of some of these books were often believed to
have physical magical properties themselves. Just the text on the

(24:15):
page imbued it with some sort of power, and this
belief exists in a more subdued form today. This is why,
for example, you can hear religious excerpts being read during
exorcisms in Catholicism, and and that's just one example. You
can check out our exorcism episode from more Info. And

(24:36):
despite all of these hoaxes that we've talked about, we
do know that there are a couple let's call them
true with quotes Grimoires. In his book Grimoires History of
Magical Books, author Owen Davies names several. So we're gonna
go through a couple of these. Yeah, that's from all

(24:59):
across this sectrum of religions as well, Jewish, Christian, Islamic traditions,
all of them. Yeah, well yes, and all of these
were they were influenced by this Babylonian myth that is ancient,
super ancient, and the origin of these magic books were
dated to the age before the Great Flood. Has been
said lapse arian. Okay, it's not that bad of a word,

(25:24):
as long as you think of pro lapse. I was
gonna say, as so long as it's not prolapse, Oh man,
I'm a pro lapse arian. I just lost this word. Now,
I guess it's better that I get. It just explains
why everybody it pro laps is a scientific word that

(25:46):
want to say it? I did. It's yes, well, my
misunderstanding of before the flood, which is pre lapse arian
is still a great word, you guys. Uh. The idea
here is that the ancient roots of what would become

(26:07):
magic in the West, which would be Babylonian, Mesopotamian, Egyptian,
interacting with Grecian mythology, this stuff becomes sort of a
primordial ooze, you know, a soil from which these other
things grow. And while some Hebrew and Smaritan text described

(26:30):
writings to the first man Adam in late Antiquity, in
the medieval period Enoch, who in Arabic was known as Idris,
was more generally believed to be the inventor of books overall. Yeah,
so we're so far back in time now that we're
looking at uh spiritual and religious traditions as well as

(26:51):
stuff histories tells us. But this right now is purely
the stories from these belief system So in the tradition,
Enoch is the is the creator essentially the first book.
But also the first magic, the first book is essentially magic.

(27:12):
Another tradition relates there's another worldly author, how the angel
Raziel communicated to Noah a secret book containing the art
of astrology, which was then written on a sapphire like
we were talking like writing on emeralds and precious jewels
that Noah kept in a golden chest they brought with
him on the arc. Subsequently, this was inherited by his

(27:34):
son Shim and a surviving there's a surviving tract on
astrology called the Treatise of Shim that dates back to
the late first century BC. This means that these are
two early contenders for what could be considered a kind
of grim wis. The purported Books of Enoch contained astronomical,

(27:57):
astrological and angelic lore, and we know that versions of
these were circulating during the time of Jesus Christ, so
in another medieval account. And again these are all medieval accounts,
so this is still that that period of time where
people were just believing almost anything they read as long

(28:20):
as it did not directly contradict their religious beliefs. So,
without getting too deep into biblical chronology, the argument here
would be the earliest works on the occult sciences where
those studied by Enoch. But the first Book of Conjuration
and Magic is associated with Noah and his son's shim
and Ham, and in many ways this views into conjecture.
Of course, often that's sadly par for the course. In

(28:42):
some degree weren't dealing with ancient history. But there's another
one that's a little bit further, a little bit closer
to us in time, whatever year we're in. I can't
believe I forgot that it was someone should at least
I was really close. That's one of my New Years

(29:03):
relations is to call people out more this year. Oh
that's so sweet, like like the fascinating m yep. I
remember that. I certainly remember. I invite the same gentlemen
and listeners. I am no gentleman, though Ohn Davy cites

(29:24):
the I didn't mean that to come up so ominous.
Uh Oh, And Davies cites another one, the Key of Solomon,
which you may have heard of if you have an
interest in grim Wa pops up in fiction all the
time too. I think it even pops up in video
games now. And I can't recall which one. Uh, you
guys probably know better than I would. Uh. Clavicula Solomon
as is the is the official name Keith Solomon, sort

(29:47):
of the anglified street name. It was the earliest known
written versions. There are multiple versions of a lot of
these kind of books dates back to the fifteenth century,
somewhere in the fourteen hundreds, written in Greek. Davies has
a great quote for us about this. There is no
definitive version of the Clavicule, but along with conjurations to

(30:07):
command and control the angels of darkness, manuscripts usually contained
rituals and symbols for personal rather than spiritual well being,
such as to provoke love, punish enemies, become invisible, and
deal with thieves, and also unlock any door. I found

(30:28):
that to be interesting. That's pretty cool, And I like
that deal with thieves. You find these all to be
really practical, timely kind of things. You know, they're like
life pro tips exactly. Yeah, there's there's nothing. There's nothing
there in that list that's super super abstract. You know,
abstraction would be more like the great work of alchemy.

(30:50):
So there's nothing about summoning the eld Rich horrors that
will then turn your mind to jelly. You know, that's
that should be a thing. There are remedies for gout
that I'm looking at right here exactly. It's a big
problem I have. I have one that I actually found
in a work that we'll talk about in a little bit.
But would you like to hear a spell, gentleman? Let Okay,

(31:15):
So this one is as described in the passage we
read a second ago. It's got these little symbols um
that I'm not it's not quite clear what their origins are,
but they kind of look almost like Hebrew a little bit.
They're kind of like, what do you think, Ben, what
do these? Did those jump out as some older Arabic

(31:36):
older Arabic? That's yeah, they're definitely. They're kind of a
cursive e very fluid um stroke where the characters are
connected together. They're not like very definitive individual characters. They're
sort of like a big flowy central line and then
different um sort of filigreed little bits along the path.
But here's one to know of treasure hidden in the earth.

(31:59):
And this comes from a book called The Discovery of Witchcraft,
which was written by a man named Reginald Scott who
was from Kent in England and was was a gentleman,
and it was published in four We'll go into this
work a little bit more, but it's a perfect place
to hear a spell. This one to know of treasure
hidden in the earth on a piece of paper, right

(32:19):
the following characters on a Saturday in the hour of
the rising moon, and lay it where you think treasure
might be hidden. If there's treasure on that spot, the
paper will burn and then it gives the characters. And
just to give proper credit, this comes from a blog
post by a gentleman named Jason Mankie who has a

(32:41):
book called The Witches Book of Shadows that you can
seek out um which sort of talks about different historical
grim wars, including the Key of Solomon and some others
that will discuss, including this one. But yeah, all very
seemingly practical, like I I want some treasure, I want
to know, you know, it's sort of a pre a
pre metal detector, you know. Yeah, that's a great point.

(33:03):
And so these were practical things. And this means that
the first collection of spells probably dates back into antiquity,
probably just didn't happen to be in a book form
yet before the Rise of the book. But the spell
like Noel just read very very practical instructions and in
that age, right, and so of course you want to

(33:25):
accumulate all of those and happen in one place. And
the concept of magic itself predates writing because it goes
back to oral tradition and stuff. So another big question
is if these sorts of things have been around since
the dawn of recorded history, why aren't there more examples.
One of the answers to that question is also surprisingly

(33:49):
pragmatic and practical and grounded in the real world censorship. Yet,
by the early years of Christianity, magic scrolls and books
were in wide circulation. But to the Church, magic fundamentally
smacked of paganism, a competitor every no matter whether someone

(34:09):
professed to be a Christian, if they were still engaging
in pagan practices, you know, like, uh, some sort of
divination using the entrails of animals or something that was
still paganism to them. Is the Bible of grimoire. The
Bible is not a grim wire. The Bible is uh.
The Bible contains stuff about occult information in the cult

(34:33):
characters practice of magic show up, but it doesn't tell
people how to do it. And it's interesting because there
is a there is an evolution in the early days
of Christianity where we see the the line between what
was perceived that as magic was received as holy practices
or whatever became blurred depend on who you ask. And

(34:54):
I wonder if the use of the word occult as
a term of abuse, you know, a cult meaning hi,
is part of that or was proliferated by Christianity and Catholicism,
because if the Bible doesn't tell you how to do
the tricks, it just kind of tells you should follow
and leave that to the people that know how, that
know what's up. In terms of like who can commune

(35:16):
with the spirit? I mean, obviously in certain beyond Catholicism,
you could do it yourself. That was a big part
of you know, Reformation and all that. But I like
the idea of Christianity being anti occultism because they already
have their own book, and they already have their own

(35:37):
experts in their own practitioners of that are higher level
and they don't want the plebs getting their fingers and
that stuff. Right, Thou shalt not intercede, right, But there's
a that's I just made that up and used thou shalt,
but the argument is absolutely sound. What you're saying, Noll,
is that that that is an interesting juxtaposition. There a

(35:57):
position for them to take. And it reminds me before
go on, did you guys ever hear that Prince Philip
quote about religion? It drove the more conspiratorial minded people
quite quite mad. And it was a was a quote
where he talks about the revealed religions and a lot

(36:21):
of people thought that, to me, there was a hidden
mystery or a cult religion of which he and some
other elite cabal was was part or we're a part.
But the word, apparently the way that the word is
being used, a revealed religion is something that has its beliefs,
since value systems set down in a book or a text,

(36:42):
according to the official story, but to the Church at
the time, early days of the Church, they saw magical
works as impediments to the socio political dominance of their
belief system, which meant they saw it to actively destroy
works that ran counter to its purpose, which at that
time was to convert people right as many as possible,

(37:03):
to protect adherents of their belief system from the prejudice
and discrimination of other groups and you know other like
this is basically what religions were having to do to survive,
especially if there was a state sponsored religion that had
a lot of power. You've got to get that tithe
money in. I mean, how can you build you know,

(37:25):
entire complexes, churches, cities without that tithe money. So they
would be destroying books, and books were very powerful. Books
are still powerful today. The book is not going away
for a long time. And of course, just a bit
of foreshadowing here, there were apparently a few exceptions to

(37:46):
their rules of burning and destroying unholy books, and you
will read ad nauseum so many stories about certain unspeakably
vile works hidden in the bowels of the Vatican point
of order. Though, although Christianity gets picked on for book
burning pretty often nowadays, and although there were a lot

(38:10):
of books burned and a lot of religions names, the
early Church was not the originator early Christian churches should
say it was not the originator of this idea way
before they got started. Pagan Roman authorities were also suppressing
any literature that threatened state control of religion, especially like
we've named all these powers right, how to how to
sneak into places, how to find treasure, how to summon

(38:33):
angels and demons. But the thing that civilizations were most
frightened by and these magical workings. It wasn't cattle witching,
it wasn't necromancy. It was divination. It was the idea
that if, even if it was a totally fictional prophecy,
if enough people believed in it, it would destabilize the state.

(38:54):
It would destabilize the military. It would, you know, topple
the house. The cards are the column of cards, the
Parthenonic cards. Yeah, this is something I wanted to bring
up really fast. And I was watching all of these
YouTube videos with this gentleman named Tarl Warwick. That's at
least what he calls himself. The YouTube channel is sticks

(39:14):
Hex and Hamma six six six, and he I don't
know exactly what he is besides an editor of books
and translator and also a thinker and an occultist. I
guess his name is Tor Tarl T A R. L.
And believe that's at least what he calls himself. But
one of one of his main arguments when discussing the

(39:37):
occult he has a whole video series on the occult,
is that if a belief is held by enough people
and strongly enough, then it is what separates that from
um reality and fiction. Right if the if the belief
is strong enough, so one of these tones that would
be considered a grimoire. If enough people believe that it's real,

(39:59):
is it real in some way? If there are enough
people actually chanting out the words that are inside of it,
or you know, believing that it's true. And so I
can imagine that the Rumans were terrified that if one
person gave this divine prophecy, then enough people believed it,
then perhaps they're gonna try and fulfill it no matter what. Yeah,

(40:22):
there's a themetic or viral quality to belief. So if
Noel receives a prophecy and enough people believe in follow them.
Depend on what the prophecy is, it could just be
self fulfilling. And I got prophecies for days. Yeah, ask
me about all right? Yeah? Uh a, Noal, What's what's

(40:45):
gonna be? You know how? Like the guitar is often
considered the main instrument of a lot of modern music today,
what's gonna Is it gonna have a replacement? And if so,
what would that be? The key tar, m it's like
a guitar, but it's also a keyboard. That's pretty good.
I mean, that's just it's going to make a comeback
that just checks out. Yeah, okay, I have one really fastest.

(41:08):
When will twenty one Savage retire and become whatever his
next thing is? I don't know who that is? All right,
it's good enough for me. I think sometimes we see
we see only partially, you know, through a glass darkly.
There we go. See he read my mind in b C.

(41:32):
I do have a prophecy, you do. We need to
take a break, and so it shall be fulfilled. And
so if it was fulfilled, that's crazy. Right when you
said that, that happened and I didn't even say those things.
It just came out like I saw your eyes roll back.

(41:55):
Are you cool? You're meeting a little out of your ear.
We'll be right, all right. Well, there's a cute tip
while you're while you're queuing up, which is our new
slang for key tips while you're queueing up. Let's let's
further this with some examples of times that non Christians
or non Monotheistic religions were like burning books or non

(42:18):
Abramaic religions. We should say you hundreight. Six b C,
for example, the Senate rounded up and burned books only
books on sooth, saying the medicinal stuff was fine. Over
a century and a half later, two thousand books also
on divination were burned on the orders of Emperor Augustus.

(42:38):
But it wasn't just for magical books either. It was
just books that people disagreed with. Like religious and philosophical
works didn't do much better. In one BC, somebody found
a buried chest of books that were supposedly the work
of Pythagoras, and then the Senate said, oh wow, what treasure.
Burn it. I mean, these guys were burning looks left

(43:00):
and right religious works. Of course, we're also burned by
opponents on all sides. If we were living back then,
and Matt and Nol and I each had different religions,
like one of our main missions would be to destroy
the other people's stuff unfortunately, uh and and then try
to convert each other, which reminds me of that story.

(43:21):
I don't know, have you ever heard it. It's real quick,
and listeners please fill this in if you're more familiar
with this story than I am. There were three patients
at a an asylum, a mental health facility, who were
each convinced they were Jesus Christ. And one of the
staff members, one of the doctors there, said, you know what,
let's just let's put these guys in the room and

(43:42):
see what happens. And then they thought they would come
to blows or go crazy, you know, have some sort
of break, But instead they came back to find them
apparently like pleasantly chatting just about everyday stuff, and then
one on one interviews apparently revealed that they had they
had each come to the conclusion that the other two
guys were crazy. This is, um, I've heard of this.

(44:07):
It's got a weird name. It's like the Three Christs
of and then you insert the name and it's like
it starts with a why. The three Crists of Ipsilante.
Is that is that it? It's a silent y Yeah,
I mean, it's definitely starts with a why. There's a
book and a film. According to the Google the thank
you Good saving also do check that off because it
shows just some of the intricacies of the human mind

(44:29):
and perspective. But all this burning, all this censorship led
to an unfortunate situation wherein modern experts may know that
a certain text existed, we may find multiple references to
it in other documents and other historical works, but all
copies of it were either lost the history are consigned
to the tragic ashes of a fire somewhere. And this

(44:52):
means that many grimoires are fakes or half truths, or destroyed.
In the thousands of years since humanity invented books found
we enjoyed burning them, and the very beginning of what
we happen to call the year seventeen. And I don't
know about you, guys, but I'm thankful that for now
people have not found a way to burn podcast. Yeah,

(45:13):
we we should have been making books out of something
less flammable early on. I think it's easy to say
that now. So the sum it all up. The t LDR.
Davies writes that the magic of the first millennium as
we know it from surviving written text, which is a
heck of a caveat now as we know, was primarily
a mix of Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian, and Jewish influences. Medieval

(45:35):
grimoise reflect this, but new traditions developed as scholars uh theologians,
and I would also insert Charlatan's reconceptualized and reconstructed, sometimes falsely,
the cultures, philosophies, and beliefs of the ancient world. And
at this point, at this point, we have to we
have to give the bummer disclaimer, bummer announcement I. At

(46:00):
this point, as we were recording this and we looked
absolutely no one ever has provided accepted reproducible proof that
any spell or incantation in any true grimoire works, at
least so far as we could find. And most of
the claims regarding a successful ritual are either very old

(46:20):
and anecdotal, or they're backed up by the same single
group of spiritual adherents. So like, there's not anybody saying
that group did it successfully over there, that one right,
and there's not someone saying, well, let's ship the book
off to you know, Dunwich and try it there and
get the same results. That anecdotal thing is something we've

(46:42):
found in a couple of different podcasts and episodes where
we really wanted to find evidence that It reminds me
of the Ghosts episodes where we are looking so hard
to find something that we could say this is proof
that that this exists. But everything that you read, is
the story from one person or two people, you know,
a small group that performed a ritual and it was successful,

(47:05):
And it's one of these things, where should it be
that hard to find the evidence of a single person
with all of these different books, all of these different accounts,
if it was a thing, shouldn't shouldn't it be a
little easier to find a video, a YouTube video of
someone successfully performing us about or a ritual? And there
there are questions because there are also people who will say, well,

(47:27):
I've successfully performed a ritual and it had results that
are either not easily comprehended or depicted or measurable. Yeah, exactly.
And so one of the things that came up a
lot in the Alchemy episode, Yes right, is it weaponized psychology?
I believe was the phrase. And it's true that some

(47:49):
of the things that you can do to yourself and
others simply through psychological manipulation come very close to what
we would think of as acts of magic, you know,
eight hundred years ago over some we do know that
while there might not be any proof so far as
we know, and we would love to see proof. If
if you feel you have some, please send it to us. Uh,

(48:11):
this is not We're not going to blow up the
spot if you ask us not to tell anybody. We
just want to know. While there isn't any proof so
far that we know of people actually successfully reproducible, that's
the important part casting spells from a book. There are
mysterious books in the world, many many more than you
might think. And we have some examples of grim noise

(48:34):
that are still either unsolved or have numerous questions, or
that we're convinced if they were convinced that there's stuff
about them we have yet to fully understand. And we
have a bunch of examples here in no particular order.
The Book of Siga, which was allegedly given to John

(48:56):
d on March ten of fifteen fifty two, Queen's favorite alchemist,
by an angel. Yes, it was then lost for five
hundred years following the death of Mr D. And then
apparently two copies remain in England, that is where they exist,

(49:17):
and they're written in this code that has yet to
be solved. That's pretty cool. It's pretty strange, especially to
sing a book was lost for five hundred years. Another
is the Prodigiorum Ostentorum Chronicle, or chronicle, apportance and prophecies.
This is interesting because it was written in fififty seven

(49:38):
thereabouts by guy named Conrad Lycosthenies. This book is a
reference work of sorts, and it contains here's the thing.
It contains documented events like we know historically these happened,
stuff that you can't fake, like Hayley's comment at the
correct time, like floods, disasters. But in between these different

(50:00):
world events that are accurate, it also contains descriptions of
sea monsters and UFOs and things that today are more
relegated to the realm of fringe theories. Next we have
the one I mentioned earlier, which, upon further discussion and
and and you know observation I don't know necessarily be

(50:22):
classified as a grimoire no, but I think it's worth
mentioning because of what it contains. Um. It is the
Discovery of Witchcraft written by a Sir Reginald Scott. Uh.
He's not officially assert to my knowledge, but I think
it's got a nice ring to it. Who was a
Kentish gentleman, a gentleman from Kent in England. Um. And

(50:42):
he was attempting to debunk witchcraft and place the blame
uh for the execution of which is on you know,
the Catholic Church. A lot of these which scares and
which trials, and would one to kind of paint these
many of these women who were killed as as complete

(51:05):
and total victims. And you know meant this, not this
book to be a very damning portrayal of the way
the church, the Catholic Church behaved, but it ended up
becoming I think, possibly counter to Scott's intended purpose. Uh.
This collection of various bits of lore, and even if
it's spells, one of which we read earlier about finding

(51:27):
the treasure, became widely read and considered a resource on
the subject. So I'm wondering. Then he said that resource
books and historical collections of this kind of esoterica, this
kind of witchcraft, um spells and such, would necessarily be
get considered a grim wire. But isn't it also in

(51:47):
how you choose to use it? Is it all about
the intent? Because I don't know, I'm asking, um, I
think this is worth a mention, but it sets up
for debate the jury still allow as to whether or
not this would actually be considered a gridmo listeners, if
you have any thoughts on that please let us know.
I think it would if it has a collection of
lord spells, even if he didn't intend it to. There's this, uh,

(52:09):
this conversation that we've been having off off air for
a long time about you know, who owns a piece
of art after it's created, whether it's a sculpture, a song,
or you know, a story or a book. It did
have a spin to it, like I said, Jeff, markedly
anti Catholic spin and ultimately anti witchcraft. I think it

(52:30):
was a little bit sympathetic in a way, but kind
of like thought it was frivolous, not dangerous at all,
just sort of like a passing fancy sort of if
you will, and meant to sort of neuter it. Well
that I mean, and that would be effective because the
ideas about the the ideas about witchcraft in Europe at

(52:50):
the time, we're largely held and propagated by people who
saw themselves as opponents of the practice, and a lot
of innocent people died. So if this book through to someone,
If if Reginald Scott's book did prevent someone from being
executed in some incredibly torturous way, then I think it

(53:10):
was a good It was a good deed. However, I
could easily see the unfortunate path that appears to have
happened where someone said, here I found a grimoire too.
I don't care what he says about these spells. I'm
going to find some treasure, you know. And and I
think you make a beautiful point about the use of

(53:32):
these things, right, Like is a can of gas and
a lighter a ticket to a warm fire at night?
Or is it a ticket to burn down a building?
You know? It is all things. And if if these
if the belief here is that this magic actually works,

(53:54):
then in a way people would see these books as weapons,
even if somebody made one that said clearly, I'm showing
you that this is all malarkey and you should stop
hurting people for silly reasons. But then also there's some stuff,
probably one of the some of the biggest legends we've
talked about, something like there's the Book of Shadows that

(54:16):
we touch upon in our video stuff. There's one that
got me um that I'd really like to hear from
the listeners about. It's called the Grand Grim wis the
Red Dragon and this is sort of um. This is
one of the white whales of the of the Grimoire
World was allegedly written in fift twenty, and it was

(54:39):
penned by a guy named Honorius of Thebes during a
particularly nasty bout of demonic possession. And so yeah, and
so you have, and so apparently the spells within it work.
It was owned, the legend goes it's owned by the
Roman Catholic Church, and it's unavailable to the public. It

(55:03):
contains the only working rituals to summon uh Satan or
other demonic forces such as Pezzus think like Pezuzu from
The Exorcists, and all and right and uh and then
also ways to corrupt the pope over time. So if

(55:27):
all that's true, why didn't anyone destroy it, especially with
this predilection for burning books off the Suddenly a little
bit you guys stoked about the Young Pope because I'm
really excited about it. I haven't. I've seen the trailer.
I watched the first twenty minutes of the first episode
last night. I love it, but Diana was falling asleep,
so I said, we're gonna table it till tonight. Put

(55:49):
a pen in it. Yeah, well, listeners, let us know
what you're thinking about the Young Pope. I'm excited about it.
The first shot. Yeah, from the entire thing. Have you
seen it? You haven't seen it all. The first thing,
you see, I'm trying to figure it out, trying to
see where they're taking me. But again, I've only seen
the first twenty four minutes or so. But the first shot.

(56:12):
You know, I know they can be controversial throughout history,
but I've never had an unpleasant conversation with the pope
on my end, at least, have you divined so conversations
with popes? Here's the kicker, Why they can't destroy the
book because apparently it can't burn. Is there any way
we can have that happen? And then talking about the

(56:33):
young Pope because it was building it up so well.
I was waiting for Ben to say it can't burn
and then go to the young Pope. Is that possible?
That's okay, okay, okay, because we're clearly like having fun
with you. Okay. Now, I know that's a lot to

(56:54):
take in, folks. Uh, And I want to let people
know I looked I recently also, and I've been sending
some correspondence to the to the Vatican to see, you know,
if there's any sand to this story because I at
this point couldn't find UH an official yes or no

(57:18):
over whether they own a book like this. UH. There
are copies or purported copies that you can buy, because
apparently it's popular in some other circles, especially in voud
unrelated circles. But those aren't the only mysterious books. There's
also some that I would consider the the we don't
know books, like the Rohan Seed Codex UH, donated to

(57:41):
the Hungarian Academy of Sciences in the early nineteenth century.
Not only do we not know what it's about because
it's written in like the Oiga, like the Oiga Chronicles
and uncracked code, we also don't know where it comes from.
It just short of showed up with an alphabet all
its own. Some people believe it is a hoax, but
so far, at the time of the recording, no one

(58:02):
has proven that to be the case. And then, of
course there's the Voyantage manuscript we've talked about. This is
an older video. This has come up in numerous episodes
just as a creepy cool UH. I don't one of
those topics that you can bring up at any dinner
conversation and you'll you will be the talk the toast

(58:22):
of the dinner of the table, because it's just it's
really cool. It doesn't have any inherently like occult ish,
it doesn't have spells. It's it's it's it's all these amazing, gorgeous,
frankly illustrations of things that just frankly don't exist. Wow,
but they might, like plants that aren't real, you know,
in in a very naturalistic as though it were a

(58:45):
medical illustration of some sort or like like like you said,
a uh something from Darwin's Journalist perhaps like very much
looks to be observational illustrations, which is what makes it
so darn cool. It's named after the book dealer Vinefited
Wantach Wantach, who acquired the book in nine and it's
been dated to sometime around the fourteen hundreds, maybe as

(59:09):
recently as fourteen thirty eight. And it appears to be,
as you're saying, part pharmacopeia illustrations of plants and herbs,
but also part alchemy, part just treatise on the cosmos,
part of a encyclopedia for a world that doesn't exist.
And it appears that this is just scratching the surface

(59:30):
of one part of the world's evolution with magic, and
just just a few of those books. There's so many more.
But it appears that whether or not you believe in
magic yourself, there really is stuff they don't want you
to know about. Grim Wise will never know exactly how
many magical texts were lost to purges of ancient empires,
religious zealots, looters, and plunderers, and it's it's tantalizing to

(59:55):
know that some of these are mentioned in other texts
and we will never encounter them because the people who
didn't want you to know this numbered in the hundreds
of thousands, perhaps the millions, and they had executed this
conspiracy a thousands of years before we were twinkles and

(01:00:18):
our grandparents eyes. You know what I mean. Do you
think there's real magical knowledge that's hidden out there that's gone,
It's just lost because these texts are gone. I feel
like there's got to be some kind of knowledge, even
if it's just herbal some herbalism stuff, what certain plants

(01:00:39):
can cure, you know, just trial and error over time.
I mean that I'm sure that happens now. Pharmaceutical companies
have sent people into you know, into very rural areas
of the Amazon to research plants, uh, the efficacy of
plants treein disease. If we're just spitballing, I guess it's

(01:00:59):
also possible that an ancient civilization could have documented the
orbit of a comment or something that is so far
out and comes so rarely we wouldn't be aware of it.
Possibly we saw last, not this previous Monday, but last

(01:01:19):
or was it this previous Monday. Notice, Yes, there's a
fire Earth giant asteroid that we've are just seeing for
the first time. And then, you know, I think it's
completely possible that there are books that are hidden and
they were written by people who believed very much and

(01:01:39):
what they were writing. And I'm sure that there are
suppressed works, Uh, whether those are waiting to be found,
or whether they destroyed they were destroyed, or whether they
actually can do something. Whether it's possible for us to
summon something. I don't know. I think we should try.

(01:02:06):
Do you think we should dry? I kind of want
to try. We should. We should get woven in here
again and Damien, Damien Kim, let's do it. Damian the
creepy kid from the Omen. Yes, he and then our
friend Damien, We'll get him to come into be a
powerhouse duo? Can you go double Damien? Is that like

(01:02:30):
it's not gonna be like when two people in the
same crew where hat wear the same hat. Two Damian's
don't make a Shamie Shamian Damian. Right, Okay, all right, well,
we do hope that we do hope that you enjoyed
this episode. We're interested to hear what you think because

(01:02:50):
there's so much information about Grimoise and there's such a
i'll say it, fascinating evolution here that we're going to
continue exploring this off the air and may have some
updates for you, or may have some updates from you
for your fellow listeners. If you would like to read
more about the evolution of grim Wise boy, have we

(01:03:12):
got a book for you. Check out Grimoise a History
of Magical Books by Owen Davies And if you like
this kind of stuff, go to grimois dot org. There
it's just a place where you can look up different grimoires,
uh and they're they're listed out through a timeline as
well with the purported written dates and throughout the centuries.

(01:03:36):
That's good stuff. Do we have time for a little
lust shot at corners. Excellent, Yes, thank you know, our
first shout out corner and goes to Devon w with it,
gets his own entire corner. Oh yeah, he gets a part.
He gets a part of the corner. Scoot and scoot over, Devin. Sorry,

(01:03:59):
nobody puts Devon in a corner. Actually, I really like this.
We're in one corner because there are four corners obviously,
and then there are three shoutouts, and each one is
in a different corner, so it's more of a shout out.
It's room. Yeah, all right, Well while we are working out, okay,
we're gonna get some We're gonna get some pen and
paper and figure this out, or just some blood and pavirus.

(01:04:22):
Devin w rights it and says I love your podcast. However,
I was listening guys recent show on the Hemp Car
when guys were going through listener mail. You seem to
be under the impression that Vladimir Putin was the head
of the KGB at some point, and think that'd be true.
I did a little looking up and found, in fact,
it was not. He left this service as lieutenant colonel.
It makes sense since there's a narrative driven by the

(01:04:43):
media lately anyways, just wanted to correct the record. Thanks
for the thanks for a great podcasts, Devin. Thank you
even more for a great correction. These are very important
to us. Uh this, Devin, you are correct. This was
on me because the truth of the matter is. On
July Yeltson appointed Putin as the director of the f

(01:05:05):
s B, the Federal Security Service, which is the successor
to the Cold War a KGB. Devin, thank you even
more for writing this one was on me. Folks is correct.
Vladimir Putin was never the head of the KGB. He
was appointed the director of the f s B, the

(01:05:25):
successor to the KGB, on July by Yelson, so he
was in charge of the of the successor today it
was in charge of the FSB intelligence service and was
a high ranking official in the KGP. Yes, this one
comes from josh At Shivers smash on Twitter act conspiracy

(01:05:47):
stuff nol. There are reports that the Smashing Pumpkins are
legitimately getting back together for a tour. You are a wizard, no, sir,
not a wizard, a seer, a prophet, a sayer of south,
a sooth sayer slayer. Yeah no, um, that's cool. I hope.
Maybe maybe it'll keep Billy Corgan from saying dumb stuff

(01:06:10):
in the press and kids suit over wrestling and going
on Alex Jones. That'd be cool. Play some music, Billy Corgan.
I'd beat down with that. What why are you guys
the eyeball on me? I gotta have issues. I've got
beat the guy sort of you know, ruined my childhood
by like being such a blowhard. And that's not the

(01:06:31):
only tweet we got regarding Smashing buff I have feelings
about Billy Corgan. I'm sorry, Okay. I was just a
huge fan when I was a kid. I thought he
was such a sensitive lad. I felt like he really
summed up by teenage angst, like melanchol in the infinite sadness. Yeah,
I mean those you know, doing the ten albums that
affected your teenage years that's been making the rounds lately.

(01:06:51):
Three of them were Pumpkins albums for me, So you
know why you gotta do that to a kid, Billy Corgan? Anyway,
another one, um, we had Philo Cult tweet at us.
You guys asked the Smashing Pumpkins to get back together,
and they did. You know, it was just an inkling
it was an inkling. Well, maybe maybe there's something redemptive

(01:07:14):
about it. Maybe the story of Noel Brown and the
Smashing Pumpkins has a better ended. Maybe so uh, I
feel like Organ, I still love you, man, It's cool.
I have opinions too. And the last shout out goes
to the Ben randall At in the Weeds w b R,

(01:07:36):
who says, Yo, I don't even smoke weed, but I
would totally smoke some sweet kitten whisper. I think that
is hilarious. I think anyone would really, Well, you can
always you can always count on bens. They're good people's right.
If I'm being honest, kitten whisper sounds like the name
for a much harder drug than weed. I'm just putting

(01:07:56):
that out there. That's true. That's true. It's like if
you see a really mean looking rough person and they
have a very strangely uh soft nickname, you need to
be frightened of them. It's dear clear. Yeah, if you
see a seven ft two guy with visible face scars
named sprinkles run. Oh yeah, here's the other thing. What

(01:08:17):
does a sweet kitten whisper like sound like? Mhmm? Are
you gonna put something in there. I got I got nothing. Man, No,
I'm not gonna put anything in there that's not a
sound that the human voice can make. Okay, that is
that is beyond our powers in this room. Right, it's
gonna be unfair to gain whispers. I'm gonna do it.

(01:08:39):
This is what a sweet kitten whisper sounds. I don't
know why that makes me uncomfortable. Gives me the a
s mr tingles. Yeah, that's what I hear. Man. It's like, um,
it's a meal. It's a sweet little kitten meal. But
it's also should we pop a sweet kitten meousy the

(01:08:59):
old dusty trail? Yeah, I think it's that resipe me out,
uh yep. And with that, and if you have any
suggestions or comments or you want to shout out any
of that stuff, you can find us on Facebook, where
we're conspiracy stuff. You want to put me in my place,
you know, give me what for? If you want to
give NOL what for? Hit us up on Twitter, we

(01:09:22):
are also conspiracy stuff there if you want to, I
don't know, what. What do you do? On Instagram? If
you look at pictures, if you want to look at pictures,
if you if you want to see some behind the
scenes stuff that we do here that may not make
it to the air for one reason or another. You
can follow us on Instagram. We are Conspiracy Stuff Show.

(01:09:42):
If you want to check out our exorcism podcasts some
of our earlier works. While you're on the internet, you
can find every single podcast we've ever done at our website.
Stuff they don't want you know dot Com. And hey,
if you haven't heard of that care bear movie and
you're already online, I bet you could find it on YouTube.
It's true. And hey, if none of that whispers you're kitten,
give us an email. Drop it to us at Conspiracy

(01:10:05):
and How Stuff Works. Stuck