October 27, 2021 • 50 mins
Nowadays, the word 'witch' conjures a few common images for most people: a crone, clad in all black, perhaps wearing a pointed hat, astride a broomstick in the dark of night. However, this image is more than a little misleading, and even people who wouldn't identify themselves as witches may participate in traditions and practices that come from belief systems generally regarded as occult -- so what exactly is 'witchcraft,' and why does it appear, in the modern day, to be on the rise?
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called
me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer
Ball mission controlled deconds. Most importantly, you are you, You
are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't
want you to know. Special announcement at the top, Folks,
Every day gets us a little closer to Halloween one.
(00:47):
You know longtime listeners that we are big, big fans
of the most wonderful time of the year, and in
the past we've often done something a little special. The
three or four or five of us have teamed up
with our colleagues to make spooky, mostly fictional stories. We've
had some real weird stuff. You can hear it on
our podcast feed right now. Um gosh. We've done that
(01:11):
for a number of years. But this year we, along
with some of our friends of the show, were in
particular working on an entire season of spooky fiction. Matt
and our pal Alex Williams got together a top notch
team of Spooksters to create the second season of Thirteen
Days of Halloween. Um, the best Spooksters, spookster Y definitely
(01:36):
know the best in the games. Yes, whether we're talking
about SKA band or our our teams of writers and actors.
I I don't know if Spooksters is a SKA band,
but god, it sounds like one, doesn't it Like the
Spooksters they cover. Yeah, there's a seventies rock band called
Spooky Tooth, which Alie thought was a real cute name.
(01:58):
That's cool. Yeah. I wrote a story about an evil
dentist called the Judas Tooth, and I just realized, want
to send it somewhere. Yeah, is it safe? Ben, is
it safe? It's safe? Well that's that's a story for
another day. But you're with Spoosters. I think you gotta
add like a town like the Sacramento Spooksters, because then
(02:22):
it feels like it could be a team. Well yeah, this,
Uh so we're onto something with this. I think, Uh
we wanted to say that you never know when will
make a new spooky story and stuff they don't want
you to know because uh, Noel, Matt and I put
a lot of time and attention into those things. So
(02:44):
we suggest that right now, while you're waiting, you check
out thirteen days. It's worth your time. But still the
Halloween spirit compels us to move ever further into the
realm of the strange, the occult, the supernatural. And today's
question is uh, today's questions a weird one? Is witchcraft
(03:04):
on the rise? Before before we dive in. I don't
know if I told you, guys, but I first learned
of this concept a number of years ago when someone
else on our network was telling me, Hey, spiritualism or
the idea of you know, non traditional religious beliefs is
(03:25):
on the rise right now. And she predicted it. Which
is the thing? The interesting thing candle? You know. Um,
she's definitely a person into candles that way. So maybe
that maybe it was, you know, one of those cursed
candles with a black flame that gives no light and
no heat. Or maybe it was just a Yankee Candle
(03:49):
Company candle either. I like the one of the smell
like cinnamon. I like them. They're just crazy expensive, you
know what I mean? How did candles become the twenty dollars? Uh?
You got to get on the cedar smell and just
fill your home with it, and they make them with
those with those I don't know what they call them,
(04:10):
the wooden wicks. Wicks. I used to have one that
smelled like leather. That's cool. I don't I've always somewhat
because I'm always eternally hungry on several levels. I hate
the ones that smell like food and feel like their betrayals,
their active betrayal. You wouldn't me into a case of
(04:32):
a candle, man. I would very much be into it.
But I have a problem. That's the issue. But uh
but yeah, no, Actually that's a great idea that I'm
glad you brought it up. We should make that so
so motive be as they say, here are the facts.
So we're talking about what is loosely called witchcraft, and
maybe we can talk a little bit about the stereotypical
(04:55):
images of which is like, when I hear the term,
I am imediately think of like a black clad crone
with the pointed brimmed hats and flying across the night
sky to conduct a black mass cursing crops. You know,
I think of the Witch from the excellent horror film
The Witch a k a. The Witch to these but
(05:18):
it's hard, too hard to say like that. Yeah, and
in that version of uh A, which if I'm not mistaken,
flies with the the broomy part of the broom facing forward.
I believe you might. I believe you might be correct
in that in that trope there's several different um, several
different things that might be used to help one fly,
like a mortar and pestle. That's it's not always a
(05:40):
broom and uh it's weird because when we're thinking of
these stereotypes, which is what they are, which is what
they are, we're also we're also wrapped up in ideas
of real life historical events, terrible terrible things like the
horrors of the Inquisition or the Salem witch trials, and
(06:00):
they've inspired countless works of film, fiction and of course podcast.
But one thing it was really important to us when
we started exploring this idea was to ask ourselves, what
about all the misconceptions that get wrapped up in that,
you know, so we have to start with the basics,
like what what exactly do people mean when they say
(06:23):
so and so is a witch? Well, like the very
etymology of the word itself, the true history of what's
now known as this thing called witchcraft is pretty unclear
UM and is largely up to interpretation UM. In the
modern day. It all depends on who you talk to,
and nowadays what could be seen as a very damaging
(06:45):
stereotype of a practitioner of magic with a c k
um or perhaps what might be referred to as the
black arts uh, specifically by folks who maybe lean in
a more religious direction. UM. This whole construct really is
is a very Christian invention um. But the etymology of
the current word has its roots in Old English, specifically
(07:08):
Low German vica um for a magician who is of
a woman UM a sorceress also known as a sorceress
wicca for the male version also Low German that would
be referred to as a vican a k A to
use witchcraft, or a vica which could be could be
seen as maybe something more along the lines of a
(07:30):
fortune teller or a soothsayer, someone who has the gift
of sight. Did anyone else hear the word vicar vicar
exactly exactly? Ever? I I always thought that was funny too.
It's It is true that the exact etymology is unclear,
but historians generally agree that if you if you trace
(07:50):
it back, you dive through whatever historical records exist, you
will see that there are several closely related words that
describe practices like soothsaying or divination or sorcery, and they
described names or terms for those suspected of practicing it.
And this is not all obviously, this is not all
(08:12):
quote unquote like bad or evil stuff. You know, there's
a left hand path, there's a right hand path. We're
talking about a lot of traditional medicine, right We're talking
about a lot of healing techniques and a lot of
things like how do we predict the passage of the
crops in the seasons? And this I love that we're
(08:33):
pointing out that what is called witchcraft has been defined
by people outside of these practices for for a while.
Like the concept and the fear of some magically powered
antagonists with some interconnection to forces beyond those mortal civilizations
(08:53):
is way way older than Christianity. So it's it's somewhat
misleading to say that the the idea of witchcraft is
a Christian invention. They certainly ran with it and used
as a rationalization to do terrible, terrible things. But witches
were soothsayers or you know, practitioners of occult arts exist
(09:16):
in the most ancient uh stories of humanity. They've been
there from the jump, even before spies. For anybody who
listened to that previous episode. Sure, I mean dating is
far back, uh literarily speaking in terms of what we
have in the written record, as Homer's the Odyssey, way
back from eight hundred b C, with the character of
(09:38):
a searcy who would have been, you know, a very
important figure in ancient Greek culture, referred to as an oracle,
someone who would often have to be consulted before a
you know, a quest of some kind or some sort
of very important life kind of journey, right and just so,
and even in like ancient Roman law, there is a
(10:02):
ton of commentary about what they call illicit magic, meaning
that some stuff was just sort of expected and normalized
by society, by yeah, by the government of the time.
And so, of course spiritual practitioners, that's the word we're
going to go with instead of which is spiritual practitioners
(10:25):
across the planet had their own sets of beliefs, practices,
and standings in society. Sometimes you know, they would be
revered as holy figures with access to higher planes of knowledge.
And then sometimes they be vilified. But wherever you find
early human civilization, you'll find people that later organizations like
(10:45):
the Inquisition would describe as witches because they were doing
something different, unorthodox or unexpected. And we had earlier in
the course of our are diving into this episode, we
had reached out to content act, some friends of ours,
some colleagues who do practice things that would generally be
(11:08):
described a mainstream society as magic. Yes, several different classes
of magic. One person we spoke with was I believe
self described as a chaos magician. I think that that's correct. Um.
And then another person who perhaps would classify it more
(11:28):
as spiritualism with the dabbling in witchcraft, Um, it's it's
very interesting to speak with people who do attempt to
actually carry out rituals of some sort. We learned a
ton I think, Ben, Yeah, we did, and these were
these were important things. We dove into a conversation about
(11:50):
the history of various practices. Uh, we dove into the
controversies or contradictions between some practices, and we we asked
some stuff that I think we will also find turns
up in in later episodes if we do something on
you know, thought forms or tulpa or that the idea
(12:11):
of cursed objects. Right, So yeah, I don't want to
get into it too deeply at this point, maybe in
the episode, but the concept of going in inwardly, traveling inwardly,
that's a weird way to say it, but to to
have an effect in the outward space and in the
actual physical plane was a really cool concept. And it
(12:35):
matches up so much with a lot of spiritual list beliefs,
like non dogmatic religious belief that's going on right now. Yeah,
and also it made my midnight to hear here these
folks agree with our pal Damien Patrick williams earlier description
(12:57):
of magic. He said weaponized psychology. That is huge, very
articulate way to depick that. Yeah, and so the modern
quote unquote which or magic practitioner. We have to define
what that is before we figure out whether or not
witchcraft is on the rise. And there are conspiracy theories
at play here. There are people and institutions who believe
(13:22):
that there is an organized, systemic attempt to turn people
away from Christianity or to use infernal powers for worldly gain.
And that's a that's an idea that happens in you know,
the so called Satanic panic. It's an idea that is
always kind of around and it all a lot of
(13:45):
it dates back to the Christian Church's attempt to stamp
out what it saws heresy, anything it saws spiritual competition,
including you know, not just like the Cather's not just
someone who had a different take on monotheism, but anything
that was from a pre existing religion, native beliefs, ancestor worship, animism,
(14:10):
all that stuff. Like imagine we're a band of early
Christian explorers. We would have to get into how early.
But we have ventured into this new land, deep in
uh the primeval forest, right deep deep into the word
me too, man, deep into a pre Christian area of
(14:33):
what would be Germany today or something. And when we're there,
we we stumble upon like a small village and they
are clearly like ritualistically killing a bear or a dog
or a goat or something. And our first reaction is
(14:54):
going to be, this isn't I don't think this is
our thing, guys. I think these I think they're doing
something different, and then it's only a matter of time
before someone else or crew goes. I agree, and I
think it's bad and then usually the person leading the
group or is you're the person that controls the religious
(15:16):
dogma on your side. Yeah, we have a priest who
says and it's bad. Yeah. Well, and and interestingly, I
mean this would be what would be more considered to
be a pagan ritual, which, uh, you know, many of
the Christian holidays that we celebrate have roots in paganism,
which really can just be a stand in for anything
(15:38):
that is not the main thing that we believe. We
pick and choose so much, I say, the royal we
I guess you know. Uh, organized religion often picks and
chooses from other cultures and then tries to erase the original.
Uh in many cases. Yeah, shout out Council of Nicea.
Let's hear it for him. You know. Uh, you might
(15:58):
might not know which it and you might not agree
with it, but they did make an impact on history
that continues today anyhow. Yeah, Yeah, I think it's absolutely true.
And we also to the point about picking and choosing. Um,
we also see a lot of religious syncretism. It's what
happens anytime two different cultures encounter one another. We had
(16:22):
a pretty interesting conversation about Santa Claus earlier. This is
what we're alluding to. Uh, there's one figure from the
Western Alps that has a couple of different names. You'll see.
You'll see it called Bluffuna or Pekta or Berta. And
this was get this a spirit associated with winter who
is known for punishing violations of social morays and rewarding
(16:47):
good actions. She was also portrayed as an older woman.
She represented cold and winter. And when folks were diving
into you know, like the history of what would be
described as witchcraft, they said, this figure, this pre Christian figure,
seems to have a lot in common with stereotypes of witches.
(17:11):
And then also Santa Claus, who is no mega level
mutant in the Marvel universe, but also does a lot
of does a lot of things that would be described
as witchcraft. Right, Yeah, can you know, presumably change shape
to go from being a quite portly gentleman to you know,
(17:32):
inexplicably sliding down a very narrow brick chimney. Has power
over the Faye, the elves and the reindeers are kind
of like familiars or companion spirits speaks every language as
we play. It was the whole conversation. Somehow speaks every
language and can exist in every shopping mall across the planet,
(17:53):
the ones that are still open, yes, and especially the
ones that are abandoned. I'm telling you, I think, I think,
I think our spooky story this year is like an
end of the year, you know, very Christmas thing. But
we also have to remember that even as Christianity became
more prevalent, and this is this is something you see
(18:15):
a lot of writing about this occurring in Western Europe.
But it's tale as old as time, right, or tale
as old as Christianity. As Christianity was expanding across the world,
Christians were still stumbling across things they couldn't explain, Remnants
of those who came before, standing stones, mounds in the ground.
(18:35):
You know, where did this coup? Why would someone go
to the trouble of building this? And they would also
strange looking caves were really big al coves and things
like that. Yeah, and then you would you would have
the locals would be familiar with this would be normalized.
They might even consider themselves followers of some branch of religion, right,
(18:57):
some branch of Christianity. And this is not the dog
on Christians. This is just a thing that happened pretty often.
The locals who lived there would say, you know, oh,
yes we are, we are loyal followers of Christianity and
there's always been so, but you have to watch out
for that those standing stones. You shouldn't go there when
(19:20):
the stars in the moon or in a certain alignment, uh,
you know, because of the ghost or the demons, and
never disturbed the cairn. Is that how you say it? Yeah?
Or even in like you know, very very very old
religious structures like cathedrals and whatnot, they have, you know,
(19:41):
these gargoyles that are essentially demonic creatures that that one
could associate with like being a familiar of a witch
or something, but they're also kind of co opted and
meant to protect the structure and and you know those
within from those very evil spirits. Yeah, it's a it's
a conversation. And if you are these if if you
(20:03):
are traveling with us are hypothetical band of early Christian wanderers,
and you see this stuff that really freaks you out,
then you can imagine it doesn't really help when the
locals also say there are a couple of folks in
town who can actually work with these creatures, and you know,
try to stay on their good side. What are we
talking about. We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor,
(20:32):
we are back and we're going to jump in the
images you may have swirling around your head when the
words witch or witchcraft are uttered, what do you see?
Why do you see it? What are what are the
iconic images that are associated with that? Well, if we're
jumping through time, we're now in the fifteen nineties, which
is the last leg of Queen Elizabeth the First Rain,
(20:54):
and in England at that time, the concept of a
which the image people's minds of a which was pretty
much crystallized. It's the hag image that we've already mentioned.
Um perhaps a poor woman, maybe lame in some way
with her physical characteristics, perhaps blind in one eye or
(21:15):
a cloudy eye, something's wrong with it. Um perhaps gets
very angry, very easily, and wants to enact revenge in
some way. And the concept you'll see it in an
old old like story tales about a witch that something
small happens to her and no matter how slight that
(21:35):
infraction is, she will like curse the ever loving, like
the Rapunzel story, where I believe the infraction was stealing
a cabbage from the witch's garden to feed a hungry
pregnant woman. Um. And it involved I believe in you know,
infant theft and blinding the you know, the husband and
(22:00):
with a you know, cursed briar patch of signs serious
you know, scorched earth kind of retribution there. Well, in
defense of some which is while they might overreact, they
are also I think stories in stories responding to persecution
from the community where their their their existence itself is taboo.
(22:23):
Hansel and Gretel were vandalizing our house. Yes, you're right,
and that that is so important a reaction, uh, to
being mistreated within society. Seriously, that is so important to
this whole topic, this whole episode. Yeah, and this and
what we're talking about here too is is real. This
idea of a scorched earth policy. Um, this idea of
(22:50):
very vengeful individuals was important for the powers that be
at the time in Western Europe because they needed a rationale, right,
they needed a reason to persecute these people to such
an extreme degree, and they also were quarreling with their
own misogyny pretty often laws of the time that you
(23:10):
were just describing that had been sort of updated two
include the opinions of demonologists, and a lot of these
demonologists said, you know what, the idea that and this
is they're thinking, not ours, the idea that these old
women can do magic spitting in the face of God.
They're not powerful enough for that. They're all they're women.
(23:34):
It's the devil. They're they're working for the devil. And uh,
if they have a cat, the cats in on it
and being pretty basic with it. You're you're right, You're
right on the money though. The thinking that was occurring there,
and unfortunately that's why people like Professor Diane Purkis estimates
(23:54):
some thirty thousand to sixty thousand people may have died
as a result of these which hunts. So there's a
lot of history, a lot of blood. Not to mention
that to this day, animal shelters won't adopt out black
cats around Halloween because they're so often mistreated because of
that stereotype of the black cat being somehow associated with
(24:16):
um which is and and the occult. Yeah, it's a
true story. I mean, history is still with us. Faulkner
was right when he said the past isn't past. So yeah,
can I do a quick plug just really fast. If
you're interested in which trials, specifically the ones that occurred
in Salem, Massachusetts, please check out Unobscured Season one. It's
(24:36):
a podcast. You will love it. It's really good, heard
of it quite good. And this also the the events
in Salem are are also likewise wrapped up in the
concept of the quote unquote magic which or practitioner, and
many of the practices that at that time we're associated
with witchcraft are around today in some form. As a
(24:58):
matter of fact, I if you look around, you will
see that many, many, many people nowadays may self identify
as witches or wickens or practitioners of some associated belief system. It's,
of course it's unfair to lump all of them together
in a single group. And there are a lot of
(25:19):
people who might not, say might not consider themselves a
quote unquote which or a sorcerer some of some kind,
but they still engage in practices, either recreationally, nostalgically, maybe
it's something in their family that you do, or with
serious intention. And those those practices, while they may not
(25:39):
be called magic, definitely descend from earlier practices associated with witchcraft.
As a matter of fact, as you're listening today, conspiracy realists,
some of us may be thinking, oh, that's right, that's like,
especially if you're in the South, where the Southern US,
where full command magic is a very very old thing
(26:02):
that existed in step with organized religion. We might have
just unlocked a memory for you. And if so, we'd
love we'd love to hear it. We're pretty sure you're
out there. Because however defined, however murky the origins, there
is one thing for sure, witchcraft is actually on the rise.
Here's where it gets crazy. Yeah, it's true. I mean,
(26:23):
however you define witchcraft, it appears that it and other
associated practices are in fact rising um in the United States. Uh.
It's something that's a little bit tough to measure, um,
given that there are so many different things wrapped up
in this, and that the term itself is so loaded. Uh.
It's been used as a term of abuse in the past.
(26:43):
It's one of these things that then been sort of
taken back um. And it's just a very catch all
kind of terms. So it does make it a little
tough to kind of parse out what all is included
under that kind of umbrella. But one way to get
a good sense of this kind of a snapshot to
go to the most well defined sources um that remained
(27:04):
largely the same as as they have historically. We've already
mentioned Wickanum or pagan practitioners. Yeah, this is fascinating because
we're gonna see a pattern that's similar to stories of
the Illuminati. Honestly, the what's called the wickan faith grew
out of the writings of a guy named Gerald Gardner.
(27:25):
He was a customs officer in a nineteen fifty four
He wrote a book called Witchcraft Today, and it talked
about his experience in a coven and according to other
members of the coven, their tenants and values were allegedly
passed out all the way down from the Middle Ages.
Scholars would later conclude that maybe some of that was
(27:47):
based in fact, but Gardner was also probably styling on
it a lot, inventing, embellishing. Uh. And we and the
reason I say it's similar to the Illuminati, as you'll
see a lot of secret society groups who claim an
ancient lineage. Then there's no real way to prove or
disprove it. It's it's important here to just the conversation
we were having the other day with the practitioners been
(28:10):
the concept of wicca and what that was, And we're
going back to the nineteen fifties popularization of that term
as that thing that was written about by this guy Gardner. Uh,
but then also taking it back to the etymology of
right vicing vica and all those vicar um. It's not
(28:31):
it's not all the same thing wrapped up together. This
thing that's describing Gardner's book is his version right, Like,
this is what we're saying. So, I guess it was
just difficult for me to wrap my head around that
concept initially that this wasn't wicka. The thing that's described
in his book, isn't the thing that goes all the
way back that would be described as witchcraft. Sure, I
mean I always associate Wicko with um is you know,
(28:54):
communion with nature, UM, kind of returning to that sort
of closeness with the earth than in the roots of
you know, creation and all of that UM. And obviously
it's it's more than that, but that's just, you know,
as sort of an outsider, that's what I've always associated
with in a very positive light. Yeah, these practices are
not monolithic and should not be treated as such. What's
(29:17):
fascinating and important for us about paganism or the Wiccan
practice is that we have the most we being outside
civilization and have the most information on that. So when
you hear claims that witchcraft, however defined, is on the rise, uh,
those claims are Those claims are based on several things,
(29:37):
like several noticeable trends, But the hard numbers that you're
going to find are usually going to be from self
reporting polls of people who listed their religious identification or
affiliation as paganism or Wiccan. Uh In the Pew Research
Center said that the US adult population of Pagans and
(30:02):
Wigans was about seven thirty thousand. That's on par with
the number of people who are unitarians, and then later
this equated to later we saw this number go up
to about point four percent of Americans, which sounds very
small and too you realize that it's around one to
one point five million people identified either as Wiccan or pagan.
(30:25):
And again this is just one among many groups and
not all, which is hashtag not all witches. But it's
fair to say most people are doing these practices may
not consider themselves specifically pagan or Wiccan. They could have
any number of aims. They can specialize in certain spells,
specialized in certain goals. There's a New York Times article
(30:47):
I'd like to drive Everybody's attention to came out a
couple of years back by Jessica Bennett called when did
Everybody Become a Witch? And and the and the subtitle
is which parties which protest? And a bevy of new
books we have reached peak? Which which? Which is? Which?
I know? So this is uh, this is interesting because
(31:12):
you will see things, like the author points out, you
might see your co workers, uh, using tarot cards, doing
readings on their lunch breaks. You might have somebody say, hey,
you join us together. We're gonna have a ceremony that's
aimed at career success. There are people are like which
influencers on Instagram, you know, people in the world of
(31:35):
podcasting have described themselves as which is there's performance art.
It goes on and on. And let's not forget too.
I mean, for for many of this is very much
a religion, right. It's not just a a fashion statement,
you know. It really is a set of beliefs and
and something that is adhered to in a very similar
way to the rituals of Catholicism or Christianity or or
(31:56):
you know, Buddhism. Yeah, I I it's true. But I
think the mass popularization you can trace it back to
one thing. I think is the magic, the gathering. Its magic,
the gathering. I wish it's it's the craft. That's that's yeah,
(32:17):
because our whole generation, I don't know whatever, I it
was so very popular where I was, you're you're you're,
you're right, you're right. But that that that couldn't account
for the current uptick though. I mean just like maybe
they're like, you know, what's the word the main streaming
of it, uh in like the zeit guys, certainly that
would have played a hand in it. I think it's
I think they occur concurrently. I think the craft is
(32:40):
a symptom of a larger thing. And when I say symptom,
I don't mean to imply that it's it's something bad.
There's another one I want to point out. While we're
with Pew Research. Later in to seventeen, they went back
and they said, well, let's look at just the idea
of New Age beliefs, and they found that sixty percent
(33:00):
of people living in the US identify with at least one,
if not more, of the of the following beliefs psychics,
psychic powers, astrology, the presence of spiritual energy inside and
animate objects, reincarnation uh. And also a more more than
a quarter of people in the US say they think
(33:21):
of themselves as spiritual but not religious. In an increasingly
secular society, you can still have these beliefs that don't
match religion. You might not consider yourself religious, but you can.
You can have your you can have your potion and
drink it too. I guess is the idea sort of
a best of both worlds thing. And in many ways, sociologically,
(33:44):
if you just look at the sociological trends and kind
of the cause effect uh, and you put all the
ideas of magical belief to one side. Identifying in this
way could also be seen as an active protest right,
self selecting to say I'm a witch fight the power, right.
(34:05):
That's that's part and parcel of it. Let's let's actually
pause for a word from our own familiars, and then
we'll we'll return with maybe a specific example of something
like that, and we're back. Um and uh. To Ben's
(34:27):
point before the break, Cherwell dot org has a fantastic
example of describing how which is are uniting to fight
for political goals, for political aims, specifically against uh Donald Trump,
former President Donald Trump. Yes, from this article there in Cherwell,
(34:49):
I guess I'll read just part of a quote here.
It says, on the evening of Donald Trump's inauguration, a
witchcraft community called quote magic Resistance formed within the United States,
and it has continued to meet throughout his presidency. So
this was written um prior to a new president coming
into office. The group performed binding spells and they gathered
(35:12):
together tarot cards, feathers, and candles, amongst other items, alongside
unflattering photographs of the president. This ritual has performed each
waning crescent moon, so that uh, the president's malignant works
may quote fail utterly. Okay, yeah, there, So this is
this reminds me of the attempts by the Vatican exorcist
(35:37):
amor to to remotely exercise people as in a way
that was a political protest, and in this in this
case it seems to be very much the same. The
group performed their final when you call them at their
final binding on January twelve, and there have been similar
(36:00):
protests on all sides of the political spectrum across the globe,
and sometimes they are more symbolics. Sometimes the people doing
these things purposely think of it as performance art. Sure,
it reminds me of in the sixties a group in UM,
(36:20):
San Francisco, believe called the Yippies UM, led by Kenneth Anger.
I want to say it was like a kind of
an experimental filmmaker and activist UM. They did a sort
of happening UM where they attempted to levitate the pentagon
like two inches UM, you know, again purportedly using witchcraft.
(36:42):
But it really was, like you said, been more of
an active protest and kind of a goof, you know,
to get the squares riled up. You know. Well they
don't tell you, guys, is that it worked one centimeter proven,
But you know, witchcraft to that end, witchcraft can so
kind of be seen as as a fashion thing, like
(37:04):
an aesthetic quality in and of itself for for its
own enjoyment. In that way, that side of it has
certainly seen a renaissance UM, leading to a lot more
mainstream curiosity around it. Yeah, especially you know, if you
live in a country where you're not going to get
burned at the stake or executed for for holding those
(37:25):
beliefs or participating those practices. I do want to point
out maybe this this is an episode for the future. Uh,
there are many areas of the world right now where
people are persecuted or accused of witchcraft. We even a
few years ago talked about the danger that's posed in
(37:48):
some in some countries to children who have Albanism because
their bodies are considered powerful magical relics or body parts.
So this is this is real, even if it can
even if it seems like inquisitions and which hunts were
hundreds of years ago, there's still violence associated with this
(38:11):
kind of persecution. And not to put it in the
same basket at all, but I think I've been pretty
vocal about my ex wife, who I'm very close with, UM,
you know, considers herself wakened and and does these kind
of rituals and someone's very important to her. And while
my daughter doesn't, our daughter doesn't like necessarily identify like that, UM,
she does appreciate that aspect of her mom's life and
(38:32):
and her beliefs, and she definitely has co opted some
of the more aesthetic qualities of it, like she likes
to wear, you know, dark kind of goth type clothing
and um, you know, pentagrams and upside down crosses and
things like that. But to her it is more of
like an aesthetic thing. But there are some kind of
deep dudes at her middle school that you know, will
kind of act call her a devil worshiper and um,
(38:55):
you know, kind of bully her about this. So you know,
it's definitely still something hangs around, you know, that that stigma. Yeah,
this this is interesting. So I looked at a couple
of different ways to answer the question, is witchcraft on
the rise? First problem is how to define it. It's
been defined by it's like self appointed enemies. It's a
(39:18):
little bit complicated to get hard numbers because specifically, the
US government is real gun shy about collecting detailed religious
information because this country has something I very much support
called the separation of Church and State, and their organizations
like Pew that have tried to fill in that data gap.
(39:41):
And because of that, when they're asking about which is,
they're primarily asking about WICCA because it's the easiest to trace,
the easiest to define. And Trinity College in Connecticut ran
three large, very detailed surveys of religion. They showed that
there was tremendous growth from two thousand and eight from
people identifying as Wickans. Uh. This this number is still
(40:05):
smaller than those numbers we discussed earlier. So the thing
is actually happening. There is a trend, it is real,
it's traceable, it's proven. Yes, And we also know that
you probably heard the phrase of the place Trinity College
and thought that sounds a little Christian to me, Um, Like,
(40:26):
is there a reason why they're interested in WICCA. It
was a larger study, Like Ben said, it wasn't just
I don't I don't think the motivation was to call
out those who identify as wiccan. Yeah, it wasn't to
improve the methodology of witch hunters. That's but the but
the thing that's uh, the thing that we need to
(40:47):
realize about this is that there is um an active
conspiracy theory, right, that there is a grand war between
heaven in Hell with humans as heros and ponds. Uh.
And so some some of the fears about the growth
or the mainstreaming of these practices, uh go back to
(41:09):
that idea. But there is an alternative answer. I don't
want to bust this as a conspiracy theory. I just
think it's really interesting to note that when we ask
why is witchcraft on the rise, we're talking about sociology.
There's a great article from the Atlantic where Bianca Bosker
(41:30):
argues that not only is this that's we're excited the
same suspicion. Not only is witchcraft on the rise now,
but it has waxed and waned and risen and popularity
cyclically across culture and across time. And Bosker traces it
(41:51):
to times of social uncertainty, you know, plummeting of trust
in establishment ideas. What what's that old list? We used
to have this old list that would whip out of
things that are have a higher rating than Congress, And
like there there, I think there were a couple of
STDs that had a higher approval rating than Congress. So
(42:15):
that's when we get rid of some STDs. It's really
hard to get rid of Congress. Yeah, but that's that's
the idea. Like regardless of regardless of your own I guess,
personal ideologies or beliefs, many people are increasingly jaded with
what they see as the establishment for one reason or another.
(42:36):
And people have asked, well, not not just in this
current age. But in the past people have asked valid question,
who do these institutions actually serve? Right, and check out
our lobbying episode by the way. But but it's fascinating,
she notes, this isn't the first time it's happened. No no, no, no,
(42:57):
no no. Um. But we'll read a quote here. This
is again from the Atlantic article from Bianca boscar Uh.
She says quote in the nineteenth century, as transcendentalism and
the women's suffrage movement took hold, which has enjoyed the
beginnings of a rebranding from wicked devil worshippers. Too. Intuitive Wise,
women Woodstock in second wave feminism were a boon for witches,
(43:18):
whose popularity spiked again following the Anita Hill hearings in
the nineteen nineties and again after Donald Trump's election and
alongside the hashtag the me too movement, And we in
our conversation with the practitioners been this was a this
is a major topic just about why we see these
trends and then taking those trends back to kind of
(43:40):
the origins of some of these practices, when there's always
been an established not always in many parts of the world,
for most of the time there has been an established
patriarchy that defines essentially what a woman can and cannot do.
And this was a way to have power and to
(44:01):
fight back, even if it's perceived in the eyes of those, uh,
those people who are attempting to control you and you
say intuitive wise women, to me, that's full circle back
to the oracle type figure where they were like sanctioned
by the state and respected and treated with um reverence
because they served, like, you know, a function in that society. Um.
(44:23):
So it does kind of interestingly feel like we've kind
of gone full circle back to that way of looking
at things. I mean, not like, you know, across the board,
but um it does seem like the mainstream is starting
to catch up to that. And it makes sense from
a sociological perspective. Again, if the ordinary, mundane, normal avenues
of power and enfranchisement are failing, there is some sort
(44:47):
of logic in giving alternative approaches a shot, is it
there not? I mean, no matter how unorthodox those alternative
approaches might sound, the trends seemed to indicate that modern witchcraft.
This is another point Bosker makes, has drawn in more
women or female identifying people than men as well as
(45:09):
many people of color and individuals who are queer or transgender,
which of course is like a gender agnostic kind of description. Right,
It's like pilot. Anybody can be a pilot. And on
the flip side, it's in an arguable reality that throughout history,
a lot of those witch hunts, a lot of those
(45:31):
crackdowns were really meant to be crackdowns on women. So
in a way, just identifying oneself as a witch can
for some be a form of activism. And don't even
get us started with don't even get started with the
conflicts of interest in the inquisition. You know, some of
those folks they got a cut of the estate if
(45:53):
the case went through. So yeah, So with all of
this what we've learned today, you can see why there
may be a growing interest, a continually growing interest right
now in witchcraft, whatever that is, and however it's defined
by you when you're thinking about it in your mind. Um,
(46:13):
I want to talk a little bit about our conversation
a little more, Ben, just in what people should do
if they're interested in this stuff. One thing I personally
did in preparation for this, and and just for my
own self, was to visit a local bookstore that offers
you know, uh, they will sell you books on the
(46:35):
history and practice of many different types of magic and
witchcraft and other things like that spiritualist movement things. And
I just talk to some people that I was talking
to several people who worked there who were just really
well informed and were able to kind of guide me
to what books I needed to be checking out. Well.
(46:55):
And and and I'm sure you know, a specialized shop
like that would be obviously an incredible resource and a
really cool way to really dive in. But if you
don't have a an occult bookstore in your neck of
the woods the stuff said Barnes and Noble, I mean
you can. You can definitely find interesting books about just
about every aspect of of wick gun and spiritualism and
any kind of New Age religion, um that you might want. Yeah,
(47:18):
And so with our with our takeaway that clearly there
are problems with defining witchcraft, but clearly it's on the rise. Uh.
And we and we've kind of figured out why rather
than some big deep conspiracy theory that would require a
lot of otherworldly organization to be successful. Uh, we do
have two big takeaways and this was a point. Uh,
(47:40):
the the chaos practitioner made, which is, read the history
of something before you before you start taking, you know,
before you start getting very experimental and exploring these things
in practice. Make sure that you are well educated. You
can find, like Matt Nola said, resources online for free
(48:01):
as well, and this this stuff will only further empower
you acknowledge should you decide to to become an active practitioner.
I would save for the second part for the folks
who are perhaps more on the skeptical end of the
spectrum here, or for those of us who have our
own strong religious or spiritual beliefs. Just be respectful of
(48:23):
of these folks, you know, and they're not out here
trying to curse your well or make your cattle ugly.
Oh no, wait, make their milk bad. That was one
of them. Uh yeah, So it's just like anybody else's
personal faith. We've always said on this show. Uh, those
beliefs are your own there, no one else is. It's
(48:45):
not our job to tell you what what to think.
But if what we have found today is true, then
we can expect this trend to continue in step with
instances of social unrest. I can't wait to hear those
stories that we're going to get from some of our
conspiracy realists today. Guys, I think we're gonna see some
(49:06):
commonalities and I think we're gonna learn some pretty cool stuff.
Let us know what you think. You can find us
on the usual Internet places of notes such as Facebook
and Twitter, UM and YouTube where we are at the
handle conspiracy stuff and where a conspiracy stuff show on Instagram. Yes,
and you can also reach out to us with your voice.
(49:28):
You can call the number one eight three three st
d w y t K leave a voicemail. Please give
yourself a cool nickname. You have three minutes say whatever
you want. We just want to hear anything you have
to say. Please, please, please, But if three minutes is
not enough time for you to get all of your
information down, we ask instead that you send us a
(49:50):
good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i heart
radio dot com. Yeah h stuff they don't want you
(50:15):
to know is a production of I Heart Radio. For
more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called
me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer
Ball mission controlled deconds. Most importantly, you are you, You
are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't
want you to know. Special announcement at the top, Folks,
Every day gets us a little closer to Halloween one.
(00:47):
You know longtime listeners that we are big, big fans
of the most wonderful time of the year, and in
the past we've often done something a little special. The
three or four or five of us have teamed up
with our colleagues to make spooky, mostly fictional stories. We've
had some real weird stuff. You can hear it on
our podcast feed right now. Um gosh. We've done that
(01:11):
for a number of years. But this year we, along
with some of our friends of the show, were in
particular working on an entire season of spooky fiction. Matt
and our pal Alex Williams got together a top notch
team of Spooksters to create the second season of Thirteen
Days of Halloween. Um, the best Spooksters, spookster Y definitely
(01:36):
know the best in the games. Yes, whether we're talking
about SKA band or our our teams of writers and actors.
I I don't know if Spooksters is a SKA band,
but god, it sounds like one, doesn't it Like the
Spooksters they cover. Yeah, there's a seventies rock band called
Spooky Tooth, which Alie thought was a real cute name.
(01:58):
That's cool. Yeah. I wrote a story about an evil
dentist called the Judas Tooth, and I just realized, want
to send it somewhere. Yeah, is it safe? Ben, is
it safe? It's safe? Well that's that's a story for
another day. But you're with Spoosters. I think you gotta
add like a town like the Sacramento Spooksters, because then
(02:22):
it feels like it could be a team. Well yeah, this,
Uh so we're onto something with this. I think, Uh
we wanted to say that you never know when will
make a new spooky story and stuff they don't want
you to know because uh, Noel, Matt and I put
a lot of time and attention into those things. So
(02:44):
we suggest that right now, while you're waiting, you check
out thirteen days. It's worth your time. But still the
Halloween spirit compels us to move ever further into the
realm of the strange, the occult, the supernatural. And today's
question is uh, today's questions a weird one? Is witchcraft
(03:04):
on the rise? Before before we dive in. I don't
know if I told you, guys, but I first learned
of this concept a number of years ago when someone
else on our network was telling me, Hey, spiritualism or
the idea of you know, non traditional religious beliefs is
(03:25):
on the rise right now. And she predicted it. Which
is the thing? The interesting thing candle? You know. Um,
she's definitely a person into candles that way. So maybe
that maybe it was, you know, one of those cursed
candles with a black flame that gives no light and
no heat. Or maybe it was just a Yankee Candle
(03:49):
Company candle either. I like the one of the smell
like cinnamon. I like them. They're just crazy expensive, you
know what I mean? How did candles become the twenty dollars? Uh?
You got to get on the cedar smell and just
fill your home with it, and they make them with
those with those I don't know what they call them,
(04:10):
the wooden wicks. Wicks. I used to have one that
smelled like leather. That's cool. I don't I've always somewhat
because I'm always eternally hungry on several levels. I hate
the ones that smell like food and feel like their betrayals,
their active betrayal. You wouldn't me into a case of
(04:32):
a candle, man. I would very much be into it.
But I have a problem. That's the issue. But uh
but yeah, no, Actually that's a great idea that I'm
glad you brought it up. We should make that so
so motive be as they say, here are the facts.
So we're talking about what is loosely called witchcraft, and
maybe we can talk a little bit about the stereotypical
(04:55):
images of which is like, when I hear the term,
I am imediately think of like a black clad crone
with the pointed brimmed hats and flying across the night
sky to conduct a black mass cursing crops. You know,
I think of the Witch from the excellent horror film
The Witch a k a. The Witch to these but
(05:18):
it's hard, too hard to say like that. Yeah, and
in that version of uh A, which if I'm not mistaken,
flies with the the broomy part of the broom facing forward.
I believe you might. I believe you might be correct
in that in that trope there's several different um, several
different things that might be used to help one fly,
like a mortar and pestle. That's it's not always a
(05:40):
broom and uh it's weird because when we're thinking of
these stereotypes, which is what they are, which is what
they are, we're also we're also wrapped up in ideas
of real life historical events, terrible terrible things like the
horrors of the Inquisition or the Salem witch trials, and
(06:00):
they've inspired countless works of film, fiction and of course podcast.
But one thing it was really important to us when
we started exploring this idea was to ask ourselves, what
about all the misconceptions that get wrapped up in that,
you know, so we have to start with the basics,
like what what exactly do people mean when they say
(06:23):
so and so is a witch? Well, like the very
etymology of the word itself, the true history of what's
now known as this thing called witchcraft is pretty unclear
UM and is largely up to interpretation UM. In the
modern day. It all depends on who you talk to,
and nowadays what could be seen as a very damaging
(06:45):
stereotype of a practitioner of magic with a c k
um or perhaps what might be referred to as the
black arts uh, specifically by folks who maybe lean in
a more religious direction. UM. This whole construct really is
is a very Christian invention um. But the etymology of
the current word has its roots in Old English, specifically
(07:08):
Low German vica um for a magician who is of
a woman UM a sorceress also known as a sorceress
wicca for the male version also Low German that would
be referred to as a vican a k A to
use witchcraft, or a vica which could be could be
seen as maybe something more along the lines of a
(07:30):
fortune teller or a soothsayer, someone who has the gift
of sight. Did anyone else hear the word vicar vicar
exactly exactly? Ever? I I always thought that was funny too.
It's It is true that the exact etymology is unclear,
but historians generally agree that if you if you trace
(07:50):
it back, you dive through whatever historical records exist, you
will see that there are several closely related words that
describe practices like soothsaying or divination or sorcery, and they
described names or terms for those suspected of practicing it.
And this is not all obviously, this is not all
(08:12):
quote unquote like bad or evil stuff. You know, there's
a left hand path, there's a right hand path. We're
talking about a lot of traditional medicine, right We're talking
about a lot of healing techniques and a lot of
things like how do we predict the passage of the
crops in the seasons? And this I love that we're
(08:33):
pointing out that what is called witchcraft has been defined
by people outside of these practices for for a while.
Like the concept and the fear of some magically powered
antagonists with some interconnection to forces beyond those mortal civilizations
(08:53):
is way way older than Christianity. So it's it's somewhat
misleading to say that the the idea of witchcraft is
a Christian invention. They certainly ran with it and used
as a rationalization to do terrible, terrible things. But witches
were soothsayers or you know, practitioners of occult arts exist
(09:16):
in the most ancient uh stories of humanity. They've been
there from the jump, even before spies. For anybody who
listened to that previous episode. Sure, I mean dating is
far back, uh literarily speaking in terms of what we
have in the written record, as Homer's the Odyssey, way
back from eight hundred b C, with the character of
(09:38):
a searcy who would have been, you know, a very
important figure in ancient Greek culture, referred to as an oracle,
someone who would often have to be consulted before a
you know, a quest of some kind or some sort
of very important life kind of journey, right and just so,
and even in like ancient Roman law, there is a
(10:02):
ton of commentary about what they call illicit magic, meaning
that some stuff was just sort of expected and normalized
by society, by yeah, by the government of the time.
And so, of course spiritual practitioners, that's the word we're
going to go with instead of which is spiritual practitioners
(10:25):
across the planet had their own sets of beliefs, practices,
and standings in society. Sometimes you know, they would be
revered as holy figures with access to higher planes of knowledge.
And then sometimes they be vilified. But wherever you find
early human civilization, you'll find people that later organizations like
(10:45):
the Inquisition would describe as witches because they were doing
something different, unorthodox or unexpected. And we had earlier in
the course of our are diving into this episode, we
had reached out to content act, some friends of ours,
some colleagues who do practice things that would generally be
(11:08):
described a mainstream society as magic. Yes, several different classes
of magic. One person we spoke with was I believe
self described as a chaos magician. I think that that's correct. Um.
And then another person who perhaps would classify it more
(11:28):
as spiritualism with the dabbling in witchcraft, Um, it's it's
very interesting to speak with people who do attempt to
actually carry out rituals of some sort. We learned a
ton I think, Ben, Yeah, we did, and these were
these were important things. We dove into a conversation about
(11:50):
the history of various practices. Uh, we dove into the
controversies or contradictions between some practices, and we we asked
some stuff that I think we will also find turns
up in in later episodes if we do something on
you know, thought forms or tulpa or that the idea
(12:11):
of cursed objects. Right, So yeah, I don't want to
get into it too deeply at this point, maybe in
the episode, but the concept of going in inwardly, traveling inwardly,
that's a weird way to say it, but to to
have an effect in the outward space and in the
actual physical plane was a really cool concept. And it
(12:35):
matches up so much with a lot of spiritual list beliefs,
like non dogmatic religious belief that's going on right now. Yeah,
and also it made my midnight to hear here these
folks agree with our pal Damien Patrick williams earlier description
(12:57):
of magic. He said weaponized psychology. That is huge, very
articulate way to depick that. Yeah, and so the modern
quote unquote which or magic practitioner. We have to define
what that is before we figure out whether or not
witchcraft is on the rise. And there are conspiracy theories
at play here. There are people and institutions who believe
(13:22):
that there is an organized, systemic attempt to turn people
away from Christianity or to use infernal powers for worldly gain.
And that's a that's an idea that happens in you know,
the so called Satanic panic. It's an idea that is
always kind of around and it all a lot of
(13:45):
it dates back to the Christian Church's attempt to stamp
out what it saws heresy, anything it saws spiritual competition,
including you know, not just like the Cather's not just
someone who had a different take on monotheism, but anything
that was from a pre existing religion, native beliefs, ancestor worship, animism,
(14:10):
all that stuff. Like imagine we're a band of early
Christian explorers. We would have to get into how early.
But we have ventured into this new land, deep in
uh the primeval forest, right deep deep into the word
me too, man, deep into a pre Christian area of
(14:33):
what would be Germany today or something. And when we're there,
we we stumble upon like a small village and they
are clearly like ritualistically killing a bear or a dog
or a goat or something. And our first reaction is
(14:54):
going to be, this isn't I don't think this is
our thing, guys. I think these I think they're doing
something different, and then it's only a matter of time
before someone else or crew goes. I agree, and I
think it's bad and then usually the person leading the
group or is you're the person that controls the religious
(15:16):
dogma on your side. Yeah, we have a priest who
says and it's bad. Yeah. Well, and and interestingly, I
mean this would be what would be more considered to
be a pagan ritual, which, uh, you know, many of
the Christian holidays that we celebrate have roots in paganism,
which really can just be a stand in for anything
(15:38):
that is not the main thing that we believe. We
pick and choose so much, I say, the royal we
I guess you know. Uh, organized religion often picks and
chooses from other cultures and then tries to erase the original.
Uh in many cases. Yeah, shout out Council of Nicea.
Let's hear it for him. You know. Uh, you might
(15:58):
might not know which it and you might not agree
with it, but they did make an impact on history
that continues today anyhow. Yeah, Yeah, I think it's absolutely true.
And we also to the point about picking and choosing. Um,
we also see a lot of religious syncretism. It's what
happens anytime two different cultures encounter one another. We had
(16:22):
a pretty interesting conversation about Santa Claus earlier. This is
what we're alluding to. Uh, there's one figure from the
Western Alps that has a couple of different names. You'll see.
You'll see it called Bluffuna or Pekta or Berta. And
this was get this a spirit associated with winter who
is known for punishing violations of social morays and rewarding
(16:47):
good actions. She was also portrayed as an older woman.
She represented cold and winter. And when folks were diving
into you know, like the history of what would be
described as witchcraft, they said, this figure, this pre Christian figure,
seems to have a lot in common with stereotypes of witches.
(17:11):
And then also Santa Claus, who is no mega level
mutant in the Marvel universe, but also does a lot
of does a lot of things that would be described
as witchcraft. Right, Yeah, can you know, presumably change shape
to go from being a quite portly gentleman to you know,
(17:32):
inexplicably sliding down a very narrow brick chimney. Has power
over the Faye, the elves and the reindeers are kind
of like familiars or companion spirits speaks every language as
we play. It was the whole conversation. Somehow speaks every
language and can exist in every shopping mall across the planet,
(17:53):
the ones that are still open, yes, and especially the
ones that are abandoned. I'm telling you, I think, I think,
I think our spooky story this year is like an
end of the year, you know, very Christmas thing. But
we also have to remember that even as Christianity became
more prevalent, and this is this is something you see
(18:15):
a lot of writing about this occurring in Western Europe.
But it's tale as old as time, right, or tale
as old as Christianity. As Christianity was expanding across the world,
Christians were still stumbling across things they couldn't explain, Remnants
of those who came before, standing stones, mounds in the ground.
(18:35):
You know, where did this coup? Why would someone go
to the trouble of building this? And they would also
strange looking caves were really big al coves and things
like that. Yeah, and then you would you would have
the locals would be familiar with this would be normalized.
They might even consider themselves followers of some branch of religion, right,
(18:57):
some branch of Christianity. And this is not the dog
on Christians. This is just a thing that happened pretty often.
The locals who lived there would say, you know, oh,
yes we are, we are loyal followers of Christianity and
there's always been so, but you have to watch out
for that those standing stones. You shouldn't go there when
(19:20):
the stars in the moon or in a certain alignment, uh,
you know, because of the ghost or the demons, and
never disturbed the cairn. Is that how you say it? Yeah?
Or even in like you know, very very very old
religious structures like cathedrals and whatnot, they have, you know,
(19:41):
these gargoyles that are essentially demonic creatures that that one
could associate with like being a familiar of a witch
or something, but they're also kind of co opted and
meant to protect the structure and and you know those
within from those very evil spirits. Yeah, it's a it's
a conversation. And if you are these if if you
(20:03):
are traveling with us are hypothetical band of early Christian wanderers,
and you see this stuff that really freaks you out,
then you can imagine it doesn't really help when the
locals also say there are a couple of folks in
town who can actually work with these creatures, and you know,
try to stay on their good side. What are we
talking about. We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor,
(20:32):
we are back and we're going to jump in the
images you may have swirling around your head when the
words witch or witchcraft are uttered, what do you see?
Why do you see it? What are what are the
iconic images that are associated with that? Well, if we're
jumping through time, we're now in the fifteen nineties, which
is the last leg of Queen Elizabeth the First Rain,
(20:54):
and in England at that time, the concept of a
which the image people's minds of a which was pretty
much crystallized. It's the hag image that we've already mentioned.
Um perhaps a poor woman, maybe lame in some way
with her physical characteristics, perhaps blind in one eye or
(21:15):
a cloudy eye, something's wrong with it. Um perhaps gets
very angry, very easily, and wants to enact revenge in
some way. And the concept you'll see it in an
old old like story tales about a witch that something
small happens to her and no matter how slight that
(21:35):
infraction is, she will like curse the ever loving, like
the Rapunzel story, where I believe the infraction was stealing
a cabbage from the witch's garden to feed a hungry
pregnant woman. Um. And it involved I believe in you know,
infant theft and blinding the you know, the husband and
(22:00):
with a you know, cursed briar patch of signs serious
you know, scorched earth kind of retribution there. Well, in
defense of some which is while they might overreact, they
are also I think stories in stories responding to persecution
from the community where their their their existence itself is taboo.
(22:23):
Hansel and Gretel were vandalizing our house. Yes, you're right,
and that that is so important a reaction, uh, to
being mistreated within society. Seriously, that is so important to
this whole topic, this whole episode. Yeah, and this and
what we're talking about here too is is real. This
idea of a scorched earth policy. Um, this idea of
(22:50):
very vengeful individuals was important for the powers that be
at the time in Western Europe because they needed a rationale, right,
they needed a reason to persecute these people to such
an extreme degree, and they also were quarreling with their
own misogyny pretty often laws of the time that you
(23:10):
were just describing that had been sort of updated two
include the opinions of demonologists, and a lot of these
demonologists said, you know what, the idea that and this
is they're thinking, not ours, the idea that these old
women can do magic spitting in the face of God.
They're not powerful enough for that. They're all they're women.
(23:34):
It's the devil. They're they're working for the devil. And uh,
if they have a cat, the cats in on it
and being pretty basic with it. You're you're right, You're
right on the money though. The thinking that was occurring there,
and unfortunately that's why people like Professor Diane Purkis estimates
(23:54):
some thirty thousand to sixty thousand people may have died
as a result of these which hunts. So there's a
lot of history, a lot of blood. Not to mention
that to this day, animal shelters won't adopt out black
cats around Halloween because they're so often mistreated because of
that stereotype of the black cat being somehow associated with
(24:16):
um which is and and the occult. Yeah, it's a
true story. I mean, history is still with us. Faulkner
was right when he said the past isn't past. So yeah,
can I do a quick plug just really fast. If
you're interested in which trials, specifically the ones that occurred
in Salem, Massachusetts, please check out Unobscured Season one. It's
(24:36):
a podcast. You will love it. It's really good, heard
of it quite good. And this also the the events
in Salem are are also likewise wrapped up in the
concept of the quote unquote magic which or practitioner, and
many of the practices that at that time we're associated
with witchcraft are around today in some form. As a
(24:58):
matter of fact, I if you look around, you will
see that many, many, many people nowadays may self identify
as witches or wickens or practitioners of some associated belief system. It's,
of course it's unfair to lump all of them together
in a single group. And there are a lot of
(25:19):
people who might not, say might not consider themselves a
quote unquote which or a sorcerer some of some kind,
but they still engage in practices, either recreationally, nostalgically, maybe
it's something in their family that you do, or with
serious intention. And those those practices, while they may not
(25:39):
be called magic, definitely descend from earlier practices associated with witchcraft.
As a matter of fact, as you're listening today, conspiracy realists,
some of us may be thinking, oh, that's right, that's like,
especially if you're in the South, where the Southern US,
where full command magic is a very very old thing
(26:02):
that existed in step with organized religion. We might have
just unlocked a memory for you. And if so, we'd
love we'd love to hear it. We're pretty sure you're
out there. Because however defined, however murky the origins, there
is one thing for sure, witchcraft is actually on the rise.
Here's where it gets crazy. Yeah, it's true. I mean,
(26:23):
however you define witchcraft, it appears that it and other
associated practices are in fact rising um in the United States. Uh.
It's something that's a little bit tough to measure, um,
given that there are so many different things wrapped up
in this, and that the term itself is so loaded. Uh.
It's been used as a term of abuse in the past.
(26:43):
It's one of these things that then been sort of
taken back um. And it's just a very catch all
kind of terms. So it does make it a little
tough to kind of parse out what all is included
under that kind of umbrella. But one way to get
a good sense of this kind of a snapshot to
go to the most well defined sources um that remained
(27:04):
largely the same as as they have historically. We've already
mentioned Wickanum or pagan practitioners. Yeah, this is fascinating because
we're gonna see a pattern that's similar to stories of
the Illuminati. Honestly, the what's called the wickan faith grew
out of the writings of a guy named Gerald Gardner.
(27:25):
He was a customs officer in a nineteen fifty four
He wrote a book called Witchcraft Today, and it talked
about his experience in a coven and according to other
members of the coven, their tenants and values were allegedly
passed out all the way down from the Middle Ages.
Scholars would later conclude that maybe some of that was
(27:47):
based in fact, but Gardner was also probably styling on
it a lot, inventing, embellishing. Uh. And we and the
reason I say it's similar to the Illuminati, as you'll
see a lot of secret society groups who claim an
ancient lineage. Then there's no real way to prove or
disprove it. It's it's important here to just the conversation
we were having the other day with the practitioners been
(28:10):
the concept of wicca and what that was, And we're
going back to the nineteen fifties popularization of that term
as that thing that was written about by this guy Gardner. Uh,
but then also taking it back to the etymology of
right vicing vica and all those vicar um. It's not
(28:31):
it's not all the same thing wrapped up together. This
thing that's describing Gardner's book is his version right, Like,
this is what we're saying. So, I guess it was
just difficult for me to wrap my head around that
concept initially that this wasn't wicka. The thing that's described
in his book, isn't the thing that goes all the
way back that would be described as witchcraft. Sure, I
mean I always associate Wicko with um is you know,
(28:54):
communion with nature, UM, kind of returning to that sort
of closeness with the earth than in the roots of
you know, creation and all of that UM. And obviously
it's it's more than that, but that's just, you know,
as sort of an outsider, that's what I've always associated
with in a very positive light. Yeah, these practices are
not monolithic and should not be treated as such. What's
(29:17):
fascinating and important for us about paganism or the Wiccan
practice is that we have the most we being outside
civilization and have the most information on that. So when
you hear claims that witchcraft, however defined, is on the rise, uh,
those claims are Those claims are based on several things,
(29:37):
like several noticeable trends, But the hard numbers that you're
going to find are usually going to be from self
reporting polls of people who listed their religious identification or
affiliation as paganism or Wiccan. Uh In the Pew Research
Center said that the US adult population of Pagans and
(30:02):
Wigans was about seven thirty thousand. That's on par with
the number of people who are unitarians, and then later
this equated to later we saw this number go up
to about point four percent of Americans, which sounds very
small and too you realize that it's around one to
one point five million people identified either as Wiccan or pagan.
(30:25):
And again this is just one among many groups and
not all, which is hashtag not all witches. But it's
fair to say most people are doing these practices may
not consider themselves specifically pagan or Wiccan. They could have
any number of aims. They can specialize in certain spells,
specialized in certain goals. There's a New York Times article
(30:47):
I'd like to drive Everybody's attention to came out a
couple of years back by Jessica Bennett called when did
Everybody Become a Witch? And and the and the subtitle
is which parties which protest? And a bevy of new
books we have reached peak? Which which? Which is? Which?
I know? So this is uh, this is interesting because
(31:12):
you will see things, like the author points out, you
might see your co workers, uh, using tarot cards, doing
readings on their lunch breaks. You might have somebody say, hey,
you join us together. We're gonna have a ceremony that's
aimed at career success. There are people are like which
influencers on Instagram, you know, people in the world of
(31:35):
podcasting have described themselves as which is there's performance art.
It goes on and on. And let's not forget too.
I mean, for for many of this is very much
a religion, right. It's not just a a fashion statement,
you know. It really is a set of beliefs and
and something that is adhered to in a very similar
way to the rituals of Catholicism or Christianity or or
(31:56):
you know, Buddhism. Yeah, I I it's true. But I
think the mass popularization you can trace it back to
one thing. I think is the magic, the gathering. Its magic,
the gathering. I wish it's it's the craft. That's that's yeah,
(32:17):
because our whole generation, I don't know whatever, I it
was so very popular where I was, you're you're you're,
you're right, you're right. But that that that couldn't account
for the current uptick though. I mean just like maybe
they're like, you know, what's the word the main streaming
of it, uh in like the zeit guys, certainly that
would have played a hand in it. I think it's
I think they occur concurrently. I think the craft is
(32:40):
a symptom of a larger thing. And when I say symptom,
I don't mean to imply that it's it's something bad.
There's another one I want to point out. While we're
with Pew Research. Later in to seventeen, they went back
and they said, well, let's look at just the idea
of New Age beliefs, and they found that sixty percent
(33:00):
of people living in the US identify with at least one,
if not more, of the of the following beliefs psychics,
psychic powers, astrology, the presence of spiritual energy inside and
animate objects, reincarnation uh. And also a more more than
a quarter of people in the US say they think
(33:21):
of themselves as spiritual but not religious. In an increasingly
secular society, you can still have these beliefs that don't
match religion. You might not consider yourself religious, but you can.
You can have your you can have your potion and
drink it too. I guess is the idea sort of
a best of both worlds thing. And in many ways, sociologically,
(33:44):
if you just look at the sociological trends and kind
of the cause effect uh, and you put all the
ideas of magical belief to one side. Identifying in this
way could also be seen as an active protest right,
self selecting to say I'm a witch fight the power, right.
(34:05):
That's that's part and parcel of it. Let's let's actually
pause for a word from our own familiars, and then
we'll we'll return with maybe a specific example of something
like that, and we're back. Um and uh. To Ben's
(34:27):
point before the break, Cherwell dot org has a fantastic
example of describing how which is are uniting to fight
for political goals, for political aims, specifically against uh Donald Trump,
former President Donald Trump. Yes, from this article there in Cherwell,
(34:49):
I guess I'll read just part of a quote here.
It says, on the evening of Donald Trump's inauguration, a
witchcraft community called quote magic Resistance formed within the United States,
and it has continued to meet throughout his presidency. So
this was written um prior to a new president coming
into office. The group performed binding spells and they gathered
(35:12):
together tarot cards, feathers, and candles, amongst other items, alongside
unflattering photographs of the president. This ritual has performed each
waning crescent moon, so that uh, the president's malignant works
may quote fail utterly. Okay, yeah, there, So this is
this reminds me of the attempts by the Vatican exorcist
(35:37):
amor to to remotely exercise people as in a way
that was a political protest, and in this in this
case it seems to be very much the same. The
group performed their final when you call them at their
final binding on January twelve, and there have been similar
(36:00):
protests on all sides of the political spectrum across the globe,
and sometimes they are more symbolics. Sometimes the people doing
these things purposely think of it as performance art. Sure,
it reminds me of in the sixties a group in UM,
(36:20):
San Francisco, believe called the Yippies UM, led by Kenneth Anger.
I want to say it was like a kind of
an experimental filmmaker and activist UM. They did a sort
of happening UM where they attempted to levitate the pentagon
like two inches UM, you know, again purportedly using witchcraft.
(36:42):
But it really was, like you said, been more of
an active protest and kind of a goof, you know,
to get the squares riled up. You know. Well they
don't tell you, guys, is that it worked one centimeter proven,
But you know, witchcraft to that end, witchcraft can so
kind of be seen as as a fashion thing, like
(37:04):
an aesthetic quality in and of itself for for its
own enjoyment. In that way, that side of it has
certainly seen a renaissance UM, leading to a lot more
mainstream curiosity around it. Yeah, especially you know, if you
live in a country where you're not going to get
burned at the stake or executed for for holding those
(37:25):
beliefs or participating those practices. I do want to point
out maybe this this is an episode for the future. Uh,
there are many areas of the world right now where
people are persecuted or accused of witchcraft. We even a
few years ago talked about the danger that's posed in
(37:48):
some in some countries to children who have Albanism because
their bodies are considered powerful magical relics or body parts.
So this is this is real, even if it can
even if it seems like inquisitions and which hunts were
hundreds of years ago, there's still violence associated with this
(38:11):
kind of persecution. And not to put it in the
same basket at all, but I think I've been pretty
vocal about my ex wife, who I'm very close with, UM,
you know, considers herself wakened and and does these kind
of rituals and someone's very important to her. And while
my daughter doesn't, our daughter doesn't like necessarily identify like that, UM,
she does appreciate that aspect of her mom's life and
(38:32):
and her beliefs, and she definitely has co opted some
of the more aesthetic qualities of it, like she likes
to wear, you know, dark kind of goth type clothing
and um, you know, pentagrams and upside down crosses and
things like that. But to her it is more of
like an aesthetic thing. But there are some kind of
deep dudes at her middle school that you know, will
kind of act call her a devil worshiper and um,
(38:55):
you know, kind of bully her about this. So you know,
it's definitely still something hangs around, you know, that that stigma. Yeah,
this this is interesting. So I looked at a couple
of different ways to answer the question, is witchcraft on
the rise? First problem is how to define it. It's
been defined by it's like self appointed enemies. It's a
(39:18):
little bit complicated to get hard numbers because specifically, the
US government is real gun shy about collecting detailed religious
information because this country has something I very much support
called the separation of Church and State, and their organizations
like Pew that have tried to fill in that data gap.
(39:41):
And because of that, when they're asking about which is,
they're primarily asking about WICCA because it's the easiest to trace,
the easiest to define. And Trinity College in Connecticut ran
three large, very detailed surveys of religion. They showed that
there was tremendous growth from two thousand and eight from
people identifying as Wickans. Uh. This this number is still
(40:05):
smaller than those numbers we discussed earlier. So the thing
is actually happening. There is a trend, it is real,
it's traceable, it's proven. Yes, And we also know that
you probably heard the phrase of the place Trinity College
and thought that sounds a little Christian to me, Um, Like,
(40:26):
is there a reason why they're interested in WICCA. It
was a larger study, Like Ben said, it wasn't just
I don't I don't think the motivation was to call
out those who identify as wiccan. Yeah, it wasn't to
improve the methodology of witch hunters. That's but the but
the thing that's uh, the thing that we need to
(40:47):
realize about this is that there is um an active
conspiracy theory, right, that there is a grand war between
heaven in Hell with humans as heros and ponds. Uh.
And so some some of the fears about the growth
or the mainstreaming of these practices, uh go back to
(41:09):
that idea. But there is an alternative answer. I don't
want to bust this as a conspiracy theory. I just
think it's really interesting to note that when we ask
why is witchcraft on the rise, we're talking about sociology.
There's a great article from the Atlantic where Bianca Bosker
(41:30):
argues that not only is this that's we're excited the
same suspicion. Not only is witchcraft on the rise now,
but it has waxed and waned and risen and popularity
cyclically across culture and across time. And Bosker traces it
(41:51):
to times of social uncertainty, you know, plummeting of trust
in establishment ideas. What what's that old list? We used
to have this old list that would whip out of
things that are have a higher rating than Congress, And
like there there, I think there were a couple of
STDs that had a higher approval rating than Congress. So
(42:15):
that's when we get rid of some STDs. It's really
hard to get rid of Congress. Yeah, but that's that's
the idea. Like regardless of regardless of your own I guess,
personal ideologies or beliefs, many people are increasingly jaded with
what they see as the establishment for one reason or another.
(42:36):
And people have asked, well, not not just in this
current age. But in the past people have asked valid question,
who do these institutions actually serve? Right, and check out
our lobbying episode by the way. But but it's fascinating,
she notes, this isn't the first time it's happened. No no, no, no,
(42:57):
no no. Um. But we'll read a quote here. This
is again from the Atlantic article from Bianca boscar Uh.
She says quote in the nineteenth century, as transcendentalism and
the women's suffrage movement took hold, which has enjoyed the
beginnings of a rebranding from wicked devil worshippers. Too. Intuitive Wise,
women Woodstock in second wave feminism were a boon for witches,
(43:18):
whose popularity spiked again following the Anita Hill hearings in
the nineteen nineties and again after Donald Trump's election and
alongside the hashtag the me too movement, And we in
our conversation with the practitioners been this was a this
is a major topic just about why we see these
trends and then taking those trends back to kind of
(43:40):
the origins of some of these practices, when there's always
been an established not always in many parts of the world,
for most of the time there has been an established
patriarchy that defines essentially what a woman can and cannot do.
And this was a way to have power and to
(44:01):
fight back, even if it's perceived in the eyes of those, uh,
those people who are attempting to control you and you
say intuitive wise women, to me, that's full circle back
to the oracle type figure where they were like sanctioned
by the state and respected and treated with um reverence
because they served, like, you know, a function in that society. Um.
(44:23):
So it does kind of interestingly feel like we've kind
of gone full circle back to that way of looking
at things. I mean, not like, you know, across the board,
but um it does seem like the mainstream is starting
to catch up to that. And it makes sense from
a sociological perspective. Again, if the ordinary, mundane, normal avenues
of power and enfranchisement are failing, there is some sort
(44:47):
of logic in giving alternative approaches a shot, is it
there not? I mean, no matter how unorthodox those alternative
approaches might sound, the trends seemed to indicate that modern witchcraft.
This is another point Bosker makes, has drawn in more
women or female identifying people than men as well as
(45:09):
many people of color and individuals who are queer or transgender,
which of course is like a gender agnostic kind of description. Right,
It's like pilot. Anybody can be a pilot. And on
the flip side, it's in an arguable reality that throughout history,
a lot of those witch hunts, a lot of those
(45:31):
crackdowns were really meant to be crackdowns on women. So
in a way, just identifying oneself as a witch can
for some be a form of activism. And don't even
get us started with don't even get started with the
conflicts of interest in the inquisition. You know, some of
those folks they got a cut of the estate if
(45:53):
the case went through. So yeah, So with all of
this what we've learned today, you can see why there
may be a growing interest, a continually growing interest right
now in witchcraft, whatever that is, and however it's defined
by you when you're thinking about it in your mind. Um,
(46:13):
I want to talk a little bit about our conversation
a little more, Ben, just in what people should do
if they're interested in this stuff. One thing I personally
did in preparation for this, and and just for my
own self, was to visit a local bookstore that offers
you know, uh, they will sell you books on the
(46:35):
history and practice of many different types of magic and
witchcraft and other things like that spiritualist movement things. And
I just talk to some people that I was talking
to several people who worked there who were just really
well informed and were able to kind of guide me
to what books I needed to be checking out. Well.
(46:55):
And and and I'm sure you know, a specialized shop
like that would be obviously an incredible resource and a
really cool way to really dive in. But if you
don't have a an occult bookstore in your neck of
the woods the stuff said Barnes and Noble, I mean
you can. You can definitely find interesting books about just
about every aspect of of wick gun and spiritualism and
any kind of New Age religion, um that you might want. Yeah,
(47:18):
And so with our with our takeaway that clearly there
are problems with defining witchcraft, but clearly it's on the rise. Uh.
And we and we've kind of figured out why rather
than some big deep conspiracy theory that would require a
lot of otherworldly organization to be successful. Uh, we do
have two big takeaways and this was a point. Uh,
(47:40):
the the chaos practitioner made, which is, read the history
of something before you before you start taking, you know,
before you start getting very experimental and exploring these things
in practice. Make sure that you are well educated. You
can find, like Matt Nola said, resources online for free
(48:01):
as well, and this this stuff will only further empower
you acknowledge should you decide to to become an active practitioner.
I would save for the second part for the folks
who are perhaps more on the skeptical end of the
spectrum here, or for those of us who have our
own strong religious or spiritual beliefs. Just be respectful of
(48:23):
of these folks, you know, and they're not out here
trying to curse your well or make your cattle ugly.
Oh no, wait, make their milk bad. That was one
of them. Uh yeah, So it's just like anybody else's
personal faith. We've always said on this show. Uh, those
beliefs are your own there, no one else is. It's
(48:45):
not our job to tell you what what to think.
But if what we have found today is true, then
we can expect this trend to continue in step with
instances of social unrest. I can't wait to hear those
stories that we're going to get from some of our
conspiracy realists today. Guys, I think we're gonna see some
(49:06):
commonalities and I think we're gonna learn some pretty cool stuff.
Let us know what you think. You can find us
on the usual Internet places of notes such as Facebook
and Twitter, UM and YouTube where we are at the
handle conspiracy stuff and where a conspiracy stuff show on Instagram. Yes,
and you can also reach out to us with your voice.
(49:28):
You can call the number one eight three three st
d w y t K leave a voicemail. Please give
yourself a cool nickname. You have three minutes say whatever
you want. We just want to hear anything you have
to say. Please, please, please, But if three minutes is
not enough time for you to get all of your
information down, we ask instead that you send us a
(49:50):
good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i heart
radio dot com. Yeah h stuff they don't want you
(50:15):
to know is a production of I Heart Radio. For
more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
Hosts And Creators
Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
Show Links
RSSStoreAboutLive ShowsPopular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.