October 1, 2020 • 49 mins
Could the contagious schoolyard panics in Malaysia be caused by ergot poisoning or some other environmental contaminant? Join Ben and Noel as they dive into this question and more, exploring some of their favorite listener comments in this week's listener mail.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome back to
(00:25):
the show. My name is Noel. Our colleague Matt Frederick
is still on adventures. He sends his regards. He will
be returning soon. They call me Ben. We are joined
as always with our super producer Alexis code name Doc
Holiday Jackson. More importantly, you are you. You are here,
and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know.
(00:48):
It's our listener mail episode, and this one's gonna be
a little bit different. If you heard our strange news
episode U Matt was able to somehow get back on
the grid for a second and send us a story
that he wanted us to share. I hope we did
right by him. And in this episode, uh, Noel, you
(01:08):
and I have each broad a story of our own
or a piece of correspondence. But we're also probably at
some point, just justin Matt's or we're gonna read out
some social posts that we found interesting or amusing or
in one case, immensely relieving to be honest with you. Yeah,
and those will be coming from our Facebook group Here's
(01:30):
where it Gets Crazy. You two can get crazy on
Facebook with us the stuff they don't want you to know. Guys,
all you gotta do is look up Here's where it
Gets Crazy and answer a couple of basic questions just
to let us know that you actually know what the
show is. And then you're in UM And there's a
world of great content on that page and a lot
of great folks and great moderators. By the way, shout
(01:52):
out to the mods of Here's where it Gets Crazy. UM.
But yeah, I don't think we've really done too many
of these UM listener mails from Facebook group, so this
will be a good opportunity to mind that for some
some golden nuggets. Yes, agreed. You know, we always say
that the most important part of this show is you,
specifically you and our fellow listeners. Right we're pointing at
(02:13):
the screen. So today we wanted to pick up with
with just a couple of things that were of interest here.
We've been getting a lot of feedback about our exploration
of faith healing and the science behind the placebo effect,
whether it can work for good, whether it can work
(02:34):
for ill, how much efficacy does it actually have? How
much impact can the placebo of any given type of
sugar pill or whatever, how much can it have on
the human body. And this inspired our fellow listener Claire
to write in Claire, you said, hi, stuff. They don't
want you to know, guys, I just listened to your
episode on placebo's and was curious as to whether people
(02:57):
can suffer side effects from a placebo, for example, nausea
if they believe the medication they're taking can cause this.
Thanks Claire, This is interesting. This is something we didn't
really talked about. We talked a little bit about the
you know what's sometimes called the no cebo, and we
talked about how the mind is such a powerful part
(03:20):
of the body that it is. You know, it is possible,
there are proven cases of curses basically working because somebody
believed that they have been cursed. But the question about
side effects is pretty fascinating because we know the placebos
have a measurable effect. We know that a placebo is
(03:42):
not going to be a one to one substitute for
you know, actual medicine. But we didn't we didn't talk
about the idea of a side effects, so like, imagine,
just to set the scene, imagine you have, uh, you
have some kind of condition where you need to get
a shot from from a doctor and the shot you're
(04:03):
given is actually a placebo, but they don't tell you
it's a placebo. Instead, they give you the rundown of
the various possible side effects of this medication, like you
might have like a large on the side of the
bottel or not to mention that rundown they do in
those really creepy TV ads for for medications where it
(04:24):
gives you like fifty different things sometimes including like violent
diarrhea and death right right right now, that's all happening
while you see a slow motion thing of a couple
frolicking in the park for someone just like laughing at salad.
I've right, I've totally I've ruined. I've ruined so many
(04:44):
stock photos for people now because now that you have
that image of a person by themselves laughing at salad,
you're going to see it everywhere. It's like a trope.
But salad is objectively hilarious, Ben, I mean, the fact
that it's still even a thing. It blow is my mind.
Now I'm kidding. Salad is great, but there's just something
that funny looking about it, Like I can see how
I could tickle somebody in a weird pharmaceutical ad, you know,
(05:08):
especially if they're being directed to laugh at salad, especially
if they're on whatever crazy medication there on. I mean,
the honest tagline for salad is salad. It's like cooking,
it's I'm getting salad. It's uh gosh, it's a different
rabbit hole. But one note on on the point you're
bringing up here. For pharmaceutical ads, a lot of people
(05:29):
in the US don't know those are illegal in most
other countries. It is illegal to have those kind of
vague pharmaceutical ads with something that doesn't have a real name.
But it sounds like it like it sounds smooth, it
sounds like it's a helpful thing, like good beautred right,
(05:52):
or there's there's well, well Beautred, I love, I love good.
And then there's like things like so Alexa. It just
makes it. It makes me feel like I'm part of
a select group when I'm on Selexa, like I'm in
the in crowd, or or Lunesta makes me think like
I'm going to take a relaxing voyage to the moon.
You know pharmaceutically at least or or Lyrica, which might
(06:16):
as well be the name of a superhero with some
kind of song power in the m c U. But
but yes, so I'm getting us a little off topic here, Claire.
But your question is wonderful because we have a clear, consistent,
like definitive answer. Yes, placebos can cause side effects. Part
(06:39):
of that maybe due entirely to the power of suggestion.
Like we said, the doctor gives you a shot, you
believe it to be medicine, and the doctor describes the
side effects of an actual medicine to you, then your
mind can play tricks on you or your your body
can exhibit some of those side effects. It's what's happening
(07:01):
is similar to hypnosis. It's it's not we're not saying
that these doctors or medical professionals are in any way
purposely messing with you. But because of the connection between
the brain and the body, if you truly believe you're
receiving a treatment, then your body will react accordingly. So
(07:22):
if you take some kind of placebo medication and you
are warned that it will give you um usually things
like headaches, chills, nausea, maybe vertigo, depression, sleep disorders, even IBS,
stuff like that. A placebo can do those things to you.
It's it's proven this also. Yes, for the sith lords
(07:46):
in the audience today, First, as always, thanks for coming, uh,
But for the sith lords of the audience today, Yes,
this does mean that if you are a very unethical person,
there is a way to mind prank your friends. You know,
mind freak is that was the Chris Angel thing, Yeah,
that's the guy. Yeah, there's a way to mind freak
your friends into exhibiting these symptoms by making them think
(08:11):
you gave them an actual medicine. Do not do it,
That's just that's not what friends do. But I was
surprised by this. It made me go back and think
about any moments that I, or maybe you have experienced
something like a placebo effect. I mean, NOL, have you
ever knowingly had a placebo? Well? No, And it's actually
(08:34):
I'm sorry I'm being quiet because I'm actually reading through
this report on medical News today UM about a study
that came out in October of last year. UM. And
it's this study that showed that UM medical research papers
often do a poor job of describing the effects of
placebos in these studies, and oftentimes placebos themselves have side effects. UM.
(09:00):
So essentially if they're under reporting or like they say, okay,
so the whole deal of the clinical study like this
is if the placebo outperforms the drug being tested, then
the drug is not effective or that that that's very
cut and dry way of looking at it. But apparently
according to the study, UM, some of the things they
do to placebos include adding chemicals to make it taste
(09:22):
more like or even feel like the active ingredient in
the drug. So I think a lot of times people
think of placebo is just like a sugar pill or
like a saline solution of some kind. But in fact
that some of these studies they actually do have medicinal properties.
So that's a little bit off the topic, but it's interesting,
(09:43):
and it came up when I was looking for placebo
side effects. That was that was an article that came up,
And you can read that for yourself, um in a
article written by Tim Newman on October one, between nineteen
for Medical News Today. But I don't know that I have,
I've been I've certainly never participated in a clinical trial
or a drug study of any kind. UM. But you know.
(10:06):
Backing up to the listeners original question, UM, can you
feel side effects based on placebos? The answer is based
on this report that I'm seeing, A yes, you can,
because sometimes the placebos themselves have side effects that are
similar to the side effects of the actual active drug,
and that's done by design. But when we're talking about
(10:27):
the power of the mind, if you think that a
drug is going to produce nausea or headaches, uh, you're
more likely to manifest those things if you believe that
those negative things could come from taking that drug. In
the same way, the the no sebo effect kind of
describes the ability to manifest negative results from suggestion. UM.
(10:49):
I highly recommend a a British murder mystery procedure called
Wire in the Blood Um that is just really great
and grizzly and a really fantastic series in general. But
there's an episode called no Cebo that specifically revolves around
voodoo rituals and blood sacrifices, and I don't want to
spoil it, but it's the name is gives a lot away.
(11:12):
It's this idea that oftentimes belief enters into whether those
things manifest or not, and that ends up being exactly
what happens in the episode, but it ends up going
a little deeper than that, more into what we're talking
about here exactly. So check out no Cebo from Wire
in the Blood. If you've got BBC or UM maybe
it's on YouTube or something. It's somewhere on the internet.
(11:33):
This also gives gives you an opportunity to introduce a
word of the day, psycho neuro immunology, a word no
spaces uh. Studying the direct effect of brain activity on
the immune system specifically and without having a full grasp
of the science involved. UH, we see some fascinating implications
(11:58):
on on the placebo offect here the and also to
your point about the lack of accurate measurements of the
placebo effect in in many clinical trials and other studies.
This is something that the Academy capital A is aware of,
(12:18):
but we're not sure exactly how to combat it. We
know that we don't have a full understanding of the
side effects of placebo's, whether by design or whether through
action of the individual patient's mind. Uh. And we know
that it's hard to fully understand that problem if we
(12:40):
don't fully understand how this stuff is being measured in
the first place, and that's where we run into ethics.
How how much can you mess with someone's mind, a
human beings mind? Uh? And how many delatorious or unpleasant
physiological things can you make them due to themselves before
(13:02):
you violate laws of ethics. It's it's a weird question. Well, sure,
it's like, does the whole uh physicians mantra of do
no harm also applied to you know, researchers and clinical
trial operators. I mean, they're technically they're scientists, but there
(13:22):
are they physicians. I don't know, this is maybe I'm
asking a dumb question, but you know, certainly, when you
enter into a trial of some kind, especially if it's
something experimental, you are signing some kind of waiver that indemnifies,
you know, the those that are doing the experimentation on
you from any you know, um responsibility for what happens
(13:42):
to you. I guess, I mean, I know that's not
in time. I'll probably oversimplified that a little bit, but yeah,
you're right. I mean, if you're monkeying with people's perceptions,
and especially if it comes to things like clinical trials
for cancer, or maybe you enter into as a some
who is suffering from a disease into a clinical study
(14:03):
to try to try out some kind of experimental cancer treatment.
That's the thing we hear about. I got my mother
into a study. Oh, I got my sick aunt into
a study. Um, and then what if they get the placebo?
You know, like, how does that? That just seems very
uh cruel and agreed. Agreed, And there's there's one last
point before we move on to our next piece of mail. Uh.
(14:27):
This may interest you, Claire, as well as all of
our other fellow listeners who have been exploring the placebo effect.
The placebo, like a placebo treatment, doesn't just have the
capability to create side effects. This strange phenomenon extends a
bit further. People can experience withdrawal from placebo's. We have
(14:51):
to remember addiction can be um just as much a
mental condition as a medical condition. Uh So while it
may seem strange, that's something with no active ingredient could
cause side effects, we have to remember it can also
cause withdrawal. You can, uh, you can be taking a
(15:14):
pill that does nothing for years and years and years,
and then you will feel horrific and horrid after you
are no longer prescribed that place ebo. So there's power there. Yeah.
It makes me think of that recent Softi Brothers movie
with Adam Sandler, which is fantastic but also like literally
you're signing yourself up for a cinematic panic attack if
(15:34):
you watch this movie. But I have personally seen it
about three times. I know actually three times. Not about um,
but there's a character based on a real basketball player
and played by the basketball player himself, Kevin Garnett, who
gets obsessed with this uncut gem, this opal and he
borrows it from um from Adam Sandler's character, who runs
this uh this gem shop in the in the Diamond
(15:57):
District in New York City, and he believed eaves that
it will imbue him with powers to make him play better,
and he does play better, so it becomes this self
fulfilling prophecy. And then when he doesn't have the gem,
he plays poorly because he's like addicted to this sense
of of whatever this thing does for him. And it's
(16:17):
the same with gamblers, you know, wh when then that's
a big part of the movie too, where they have
to have a certain you know, lucky coin or like
whatever pair of socks or something, or you know, they
make a bet in a certain way, or bet the
same numbers or whatever. Like all of these things. You
call them superstitions, but there's power in these things that
you give them meaning and then they become meaningful to
(16:39):
your your brain right, and this this leads us to
so many other paths. It's something that we we should
do an episode on fully in the future. It reminds
me of uh kurt day Cha, which I may be
mispronouncing k u r d a I t c h A.
It's a name for a kind of shaman in an
(17:00):
aboriginal group in Australia. And from this practice we have
examples of what could arguably be called the fatal placebo effect.
So check it out if you're interested. But you can
also sit tight because we will do an episode on
that in the future, hopefully soon, because I've got to
(17:23):
justify how many weird things I've been reading about this,
So thank you very much, Claire and everybody wrote in
on that regard. And now we're gonna pause for a
word from our sponsor and we'll be back. And we
have returned. So uh no, this is one that really
(17:48):
stood out to you, and I think it's I think
it's an excellent question. You and I talked a little
bit about this off airm earlier. I don't remember how
much earlier it could have been, like could have been yesterday,
could have been the d uncleared dude. Time is uh
has lost its luster and and pretty much all of
its meaning in our lives these days. Yeah, no, we
(18:11):
we were. We were talking about, um, the Screaming Girls
of Malaysia episode, which I think was one that stuck
with all of us a bit because it combines a
lot of the element It actually combines the the the
idea of a placebo effect even could be wrapped up
in that topic, where there's this power of belief and
seeing somebody else experience something and feeling that is as
(18:31):
though you may be experiencing yourself. Um, these these young
women in the public schools in Malaysia, h it's happened
several times, have been stricken with these fits of of
screaming and seeing apparitions and almost like a sense of possession.
And then we dug a little deeper and realized that
these parts of what is it called been peninsular Malaysia,
(18:52):
they're a little more rural, Uh, they are, it's the
most religious parts of the country. A country that's already
pretty religious. Um, and so there's a sense of that
power of belief just being particularly strong in this part
of the country. UM. But we did kind of bring
up briefly how they had some similarities to the Salem
Witch Trials, where individuals were essentially accused of witchcraft, uh,
(19:17):
put on trial and killed as a result of some
young women, um acting as though they had been possessed
and speaking very specifically about seeing certain things and and
their themes in that story where you can see it
dramatically in the crucible the play. Um, but a lot
of it ended up being like, oh, these girls were
(19:38):
colluding in some way, or they sort of saw each
other behaving in certain ways and started kind of like
copycatting a little bit. And UM that that was one
of our theories maybe about what was going on with
the screaming girls in Malaysia. But in historically speaking, um,
something that comes up or surrounding the Salem witch Trials
is the notion of environmental contamination. Okay, we're gonna get
(20:00):
a little deeper that, but first I'm gonna read this
email from Tunisha. Hello, I just finished listening to the
Screaming Girls of Malaysia episode, and I'm really surprised that
possible environmental toxicity wasn't mentioned. Surely outside investigators have tested
the drinking water, air pollution, and soil, and I would
love to hear about it. Um. I thought you were
(20:22):
going to bring it up after you mentioned the witch trials,
because I know that a common modern theory is that
people were having hallucinations due to uh this is said
to be the drinking water here in the email, um
any who, thanks for putting out a great show to
Nisha from right here in Atlanta. Um. And this is
an interesting thing because it's it's definitely not something that
(20:44):
I don't believe. This is a definitive answer ben to
to to what caused the witch panic, the Satanic panic. Yeah, ergotism, ergotism,
And that wouldn't have been water. It would have been maybe.
So it was something in corn, right, isn't it something
that breaks down and becomes almost a hallucinogenic substance or
it's I'm sorry, it's like a it's a plague of
(21:06):
sorts that can affect crops, I thought, But yeah, it's
a fungus. So there's a nod to it in one
of the best horror films that came out recently, The
Witch where the where the produce is contaminated, it can
cause UH, it can cause a condition called ergo toxicosis.
(21:27):
Really what's happening is people are ingesting the alkaloids produced
by this fungus, which is called Claviceps purpurea, not the
not the best name. UH. It affects rye and other cereals,
and it can cause things like convulsive seizures and spasms, diarrhea,
(21:47):
and it can cause mania psychosis. UH. You can also
cause a really a really gross kind of dry gangreing.
It's been proposed that something like that could partially explain
the outbreak of mass hysteria in Salem at that time.
(22:08):
But I would also I would draw attention to to
the idea of uh, Saint Anthony's Fire this was this
was probably er goot poisoning. That's that's the theory where
it seems much more likely than the speculation for Salem.
So Saint Anthony's Fire is called that today because it
(22:31):
was named after monks at the Order of Saint Anthony.
They were considered to be very successful at treating UH,
this kind of gangrenous poison. Which would cause um, it
would just cause pandemonium. I mean, imagine you're already tripping
balls basically, and then you see other people who are afflicted,
(22:54):
but their physical bodies are changing, like they're seizing up arms,
they're swelling or freezing right. And and in the and
the young girls that I mentioned, Betty Paris and Abigail
Williams were the sort of patient zero I guess of
of the Salem which explosion. This this kind of like
massive spate of witchcraft accusations UM. And they were exhibiting
(23:18):
symptoms very similar to that. They had convulsions and um,
you know, essentially reporting having visions of sorts. And and
you're not kidding, Ben when you say this stuff makes
you trip balls. It actually it's it's fascinating the way
this stuff works. UM. It can infect rye the grain
that you grow, you can make bread out of UM.
(23:40):
And it's the way it works is this fungus, this
ergot fungus can grow and actually replace these shoots of
grain UM from these rise. For lack of a better
way of I am clearly not farmer. There you go,
UM with something called uh skurlsa. And uh scurlsa is
(24:04):
a persistent according to the Briton Britannica, persistent vegetative resting
spore of a certain fungi. So it's essentially it's a
dark in color. It can vary in size UM and
sometimes it can get up to four inches in length UM.
So that that's definitely this the science behind this infestation
(24:29):
and um there's another great article in in Britannica that
that talks about the whole uh potential for this ergot
poisoning in the Salem witch trials. It forms typically after
a severe winter and a particularly damp spring. And this
whole theory was put forth in nineteen seventy six by
(24:49):
Dr Linda caparele Um of the ren Slayer Polytechnic Institute
UM and found quite a bit of evidence that this
could very well have been what happened, That this was
a case of contaminated rye that would have been you know,
made into all kinds of food stuffs, including bread. Yeah,
there there are some issues. Uh, you're you're right. Nineteen
(25:12):
seventy six, that's the first serious proposal we have about
this theory. In another historian, Mary Matosian, talks about this
as well in an article in American scientists. There are
a couple issues before we get to Malaysia. We promise
you we're on the way to Malaysia here before we
get there. Um, one of the issues with the Salem
(25:35):
which trial for as far as this explanation goes, is
that er got poisoning has additional symptoms that were not
recorded in Salem. Right in some of this stuff, we
know that it can cause mental breaks, and it can
have these cognitive effects, but more people would have been
(25:56):
affected by ergot poison From what we understand it, it
would be likely at least that more people in the
town would be affected and that they would exhibit some
more of those physiological symptoms of urgot poisoning. That's not
to say this didn't happen, It's just to say that, um,
there would be additional symptoms, and that the number of
(26:18):
children who were afflicted, because we have to remember a
lot of the like Salem, we're talking about children, Uh,
there were fewer of them that would have been affected
in any other ergot poisoning epidemic that we know of.
And this, uh, this does put us in a great
spot to ask about Malaysia too, because this is something
I was wondering we're prepping this episode, you know, different
(26:42):
ways to explain this. We spend a lot of time
in the episode for anyone who hasn't heard it yet,
exploring the socio cultural lens through which people experience these things.
And then we don't spend your right, we don't spend
very much time talking about possible environmental contamination and what
it could be. So it's not rye bread, that's for sure,
(27:07):
but it could be it could be ur goot transported
through some other sort of vehicles, some other sort of carrier.
But reading reading about pollution in Malaysia exactly, we find
that it does have a very high level of air pollution,
so unfortunately not uncommon these days. But uh, but that
(27:29):
would that would appear to have impact on things like
the lungs and the heart more so than mental function.
That's right, I will say, though I did find this
is a little over my head, but I found a
report on contaminants and the soil environment in Malaysia from
y Am kind Of and s. Salma jah Uh from
(27:53):
a larger paper called Contaminants in the Soil Environment in
the austral Asia Pacific Region UM and there there is
an abstract. We're talking about how Malaysia is, you know,
undergoing a lot of very quick development and rapid industrialization UM,
and agriculture is a big part of that UM. And
(28:15):
you know, there's a lot of very fast growth in
the agriculture sector UM. And along with that comes increases
in urban populations and creations of new urban areas UM.
And along with that, you know, sometimes industry outpaces UM.
What's the word been oversight or regulation, right. And so
(28:37):
there is a list of contaminants in the soil of Malaysia,
and there's a particularly interesting column that talks about Peninsula Malaysia,
and it does appear that it does contain UH some
pretty high levels of some uh some contaminants UM. It's
divided into several regions Pennsua Malaysia, Saba, and Sarawak. And
(29:00):
I did notice that UH in some of these categories,
the number for Peninsula Malaysia was a good bit higher
even than some of the other uh the other regions. UM.
Some of the specific contaminants that are listed I am
not familiar with, and they're certainly not household names, so
I definitely want to do some more digging into that
(29:20):
UM but it does have to do with things that
are specifically found in the soil, and then it could
be considered contaminants. So um, and then I found an
article in looking into this about how contaminants well maybe
don't make you trip or you know, have some kind
of like psychotic episode, just basic environmental contaminants can have
(29:42):
an effect on your mental health and just your well
landing like lead absolutely bad. Yeah, I want to see
also in support of the point you're making, Uh, we
looked into drinking water in Kellenton as well, because it
seemed like that would be um, a good place to start,
like that would be one of the most ubiquitous common
(30:04):
vehicles of transporting and contaminant would be the air water
or as you said, the soil. And uh, we didn't
find I didn't find evidence of a hallucinogenic agent, but
we do know to the fantastic point you just raised
their noal, something doesn't have to immediately make somebody mentally
unstable for it to have a long term cognitive effect.
(30:28):
This is where we introduced something that may be familiar
to our fellow listeners. As a matter of fact, some
of us may be listening to this conversation and saying
I can't believe they're not going to talk about lead
contamination and crime. This is related, if only tangentially. There
is a long running proposed link between elevated blood levels
(30:54):
in children as they're developing and increased rates of crime
later in life. We know the facts about lead. It's toxic,
it's dangerous to multiple organs uh in the brain especially,
and individuals who are exposed to lead at young ages
do seem to be more vulnerable to learning disabilities, decreased
(31:17):
i q A, d h D, lifelong problems with impulse control. Uh.
So now they're they're experts who are proposing that lead
contamination may have a possible long term effect on various communities.
There's still you can see how that research gets complicated
(31:38):
and very sticky, very quickly. You'll see other studies contradicting it.
But one of the reasons I think the question about
environmental contamination in this case of the screaming girls in
Malaysia is such a good question is exactly that we
do not understand the long term effects of these um
(32:00):
We don't understand long term effects of these contaminants. We
could say with reasonable certitude that it's probably not er
got poisoning specifically because of the way people were affected
and the length of time they were affected or when
they recovered, etcetera. But we we simply cannot rule out
(32:25):
some possibility of an environmental contaminant. That's where I'm at
at least, what do you mean? I'm I'm with you, Ben,
and I want to just double back really quickly. The
study that I mentioned at the top of the show, Um,
it was very in depth and dealt with a lot
of different types of you know, acidity and different soils
and stuff. So I don't want to couch that as
as evidence that necessarily that Peninsulasia has higher rates of
(32:48):
contamination than the rest of the country. But I will
say I did find an article that does say that
Malaysia has significant water pollution problems, UM, and that does
stem from that rapid industrialization and that I talked about
that that study reference. I think that holds true. UM.
But it points out that Malaysia doesn't actually release individual
(33:10):
values of river water quality measurements for monitoring sites. It
just releases it kind of on a spectrum and three
rankings clean, slightly polluted, and polluted, but won't really give
you a breakdown of what materials are in the drinking water.
So I think it's something that we probably owe it
to ourselves and the listeners too. Maybe revisit another time, um,
(33:33):
but I do think that you're right then this is
not something we can absolutely rule out. Agreed on all
counts here, and thank you for raising this important point, Tunisia. Also,
I believe that you are you are a fellow Georgian,
so it's it's great to hear from the hometown crew
(33:53):
here as well. Um, this is something that we are
gonna have to spend some time exploring. So I don't
know what anybody else was planning for this weekend, but
don't invite me to your parties because I am going
to be reading a lot about environmental contamination in different
parts of the world, and let's see, let's see if
(34:16):
we can find something there. In the meantime, we're gonna
pause for a word from our sponsor and then we'll
return with our I guess our very first Matt Frederick
Tribute M segment. Okay, and we're back with the first
(34:39):
ever semi annual. Hopefully I don't want to be gone
too much. We miss you, Matt. Matt Frederick Appreciation Corner,
where in we also make this a listener and UM
Facebook group member appreciation corner because we're gonna pull a
couple of comments from our Here's Where Gets Crazy, uh
(35:01):
Facebook group, which you two can be a part of.
Just go to Facebook dot com and and and search
for Here's Where It's Crazy and you can be part
of the fund too and maybe end up on one
of these. But you know what, I think it's not
fair to only do this one mask on. We should
probably figure out a way to incorporate this in a
little more regularly. And I've got to go. I've got
one I think that's been on a lot of people's feeds. Um,
what's up with this UFO and Jersey year about this?
(35:24):
Uh this Jersey UFOs on with I mean, you know it.
Look it's it's I don't want to like let the
wind out of the sales too quickly. But there were
a ton of reports UM, originally on TikTok Monday of
the week that we're recording this. But yeah, there were
a lot of reports flying around the internet UM this week,
starting with TikTok user handle at baby Jenny, who posted
(35:46):
a video of a pretty cool uh legit looking UFO
hovering over New Jersey's Route twenty one. There are other
people looking at it from the side of the road
with their phones up, you know. Uh and um just
kind of slack jawed and like I said, the way
the the video pans very quickly. It's kind of a
(36:07):
whip pan situation. You just kind of catch a glimpse
of it, but really does look like a broad daylight, uh,
little saucer situation, just kind of hovering in in in
in space, um, up there in the Jersey sky. Um.
And the video got four million views, more than a
than six hundred thousand likes uh in just a day. Um.
(36:28):
And then uh, the truth came out, as it tends
to do. Um. You know, it's always on the table
that a that a thing like that hovering slowly could
be a blimp. But we heard the truth from none
other than a representative from good Year the blimp people. Yeah,
(36:49):
like the blimp people. They called into Insider and said, hey, uh,
we were flying a new blimp in New York that
day in northern New Jersey on Monday to capture aerial
footage of the NF fell game between the Pittsburgh Steelers
and the New York Giants. The MetLife Stadium, which I'm
assuming was only was populated by a little cardboard cutouts
of people. Have you seen those photographs baseball? There's there's
(37:12):
one that was in the Bay Area where it was like,
you know, this insane blade runner sky like just like
you know, desert kind of Sepia colored with because of
these wildfires, and then all of these really haunting cardboard
cutout people sitting in the stands watching the baseball game.
(37:34):
I'll do, uh do one crazieruck in South Korea, a
company populated a stadium with sex dolls and then this
said they were just life life mannequins. Kind of stories
Strange news daily on that one. What I think happened
is that they wanted to buy mannequins and they got
(37:54):
a good deal, and uh, they didn't do enough research
to think route that these are clearly uh sex toys
in the stands. But you know, everybody is, everybody's trying
to make it work. Also, shout out to good Year
if you're listening. A number of years ago, I got
(38:15):
very close to get to ride on one of those blimps.
It's a dream of mine. Uh, it's it's actually kind
of kind of exclusive. You have to get invited. Did
you know that, Like can't buy a ticket. I wouldn't
imagine that you could. But it's it's also not like
the Oscar Meyer Wiener mobile that just sort of rolls
around the different places and you can go in and
check it out. Definitely a little harder to get up
(38:36):
to that good Year blimp. And yeah, can you imagine
where you park a blimp? Do you more? A blimp
isn't do you have to dry docket you sort of
like tie it up and or do you deflate it
and then there's an inflated every time you're gonna use it. Um, yeah,
that's what you do. Okay, Well, there's a there's a
rope that hangs down at all times, and there's a
person in the ground who is in charge of that
that aspect, and so it's like if you're in a
(38:59):
blimp crew, you know, some days of the week you
get to fly the blimp. Other days you have to
be the person holding the rope. It's it's it's like
it's like an elaborate inflatable kite. It goes up. Yeah,
but I will say. The thing that is remarkable about
the video though, and you can literally hear people of
gas you say, oh my god, having their minds blown.
(39:20):
It's got this little blinking light on the bottom of
it that like is very bright, and it's right in
the middle of it, and it has the appearance of
the thing at the bottom of the classic sci fi
ufo that beams people up, you know, that shoots up
that wide swath of of blue light and then you
get you get caught up in the tractor beam and
(39:41):
pulled up to presumably have things done to your butt um.
So I think that might have been what did it,
because it also looks very symmetrical, and I typically think
of a blimp as being tapered, you know, like fat
on one end on the front end and a little
tapered on the back. But it really does look like
a flying saucer. And so I could see how it
would have freaked some people out. And and even when
(40:01):
Goodyear chimed in that that people weren't having it. They
thought that was fake news and continued proliferating this stuff
on on on Twitter and Facebook. And I think finally
now people are coming to terms with the fact that
this was in fact a blimp uh and not and
not a UFO. But given all the research and the
revelations about state level monitoring new UFOs, we know that
(40:24):
something freaky is happening in the skies that I'm also
I'm referring to the US program, but I'm also referring
to Japan, which it turns out may have been investigating
UFOs for some time as well. Uh, Matt, if you
are listening to this, we went through these things, uh,
and I was looking for some stuff that would be
(40:45):
interesting to you, but also looking for some stuff that
might give you a chuckle. So here's one that I
thought would be interesting. This is the kind of thing
that from Matt's perspective, I would I would imagine Matt
being very uh very into exploring. And that is that
the FBI has warned doorbell cameras like ring can give
(41:08):
an early warning of police searches. You saw this too, right, No, no, no,
not tell me more about it, but I look up
and follow along. But this is news to me. Yeah.
So this came through a leaked FBI bulletin, and we
found out about this courtesy of Joe b On. Here's
where it gets crazy. Essentially, the FBI didn't mean this
(41:30):
to be public knowledge, but they said, ironically, the rise
of the surveillance state is letting residents of a home
that has uh, you know, a ring camera or something
like that. It's letting them get a heads up if
law enforcement is showing to conduct a search, which is
(41:51):
kind of ironic given that the concern of a mass
surveillance state is always being vulnerable to some kind of search,
right or some lack of privacy. This reminds me of ways.
I used to love the GPS app Ways, and it
did it did something that really irritated law enforcement when
(42:13):
it would let you know if there was a speed
trap ahead and you could warn other people. Well. Sure,
there's even a little icon on ways specifically for like
a cop card. It's it's a little animated police car
that shows up on your map. Uh. And then you
get the prompt um, which isn't entirely the safest thing
in the world, whether to confirm or deny that that's
still there. So it's sort of crowdsourced information about where
(42:37):
these law enforcement officials are posted up. I don't know, Ben,
don't don't you think it's sort of our prerogative to
get an early warning if law enforcement under our door,
especially considering things like what happened to Brianna Taylor and
and and all these unlawful no non warrants and you know,
problems with the way warrants are served and people getting killed.
(42:58):
I mean, I I don't know. This seems like a
non issue to me. I I don't. I feel like
I want to know uh and be prepared, right, I mean,
consider the consider the murder of Katherine Johnston was ninety
two years old when when she was killed by police
(43:20):
in her home here in Atlanta, Georgia. The real issue
here is private service versus UH public entity. Right, because
Amazon is already blurring the lines with this UH. We
know that they have aggressively marketed themselves to local police departments.
(43:40):
And on March sevent the CEO of ring Won, Jamie Simonov,
sent out an email with the subject line going to
war UH and they said their new mission is to
use consumer electronics to fight crime and closer and closer
PSI patient with public law enforcement. So the line is
(44:03):
being blurred. Technology is disrupting the line between private and
public entities. And I think that's that's the heart of
the concern. If I buy, if I was the kind
of person to own a ring or something like that,
and it somehow didn't tell me when certain people were
at the door, then in my opinion, it's a broken service.
(44:23):
I shouldn't use it. I should get a refund. Uh.
So there that's one thing I thought would interest you, Matt.
It is interesting. I wanted to point out one thing
from my my experience. I used to live in a place,
um two places before where I currently live. Um that
when I checked it out, Uh, somebody pointed out to
me that it probably used to be a drug house
(44:47):
or perhaps a manufacturing house, because there was a pretty
conspicuous camera amount on the top of the of the
like of the roof kind of that was like and
and I don't know, maybe that was jumping to conclusions,
but I understand that's almost like it does have sort
of a reputation of like, oh, if you have a
camera like that, you're trying to protect yourself from the cops,
(45:10):
or you're trying to get an early warning signal or
something like that, which is interesting to me given the
age of the Internet of Things and us wanting to
have literally a camera in our fridge, Like I I
feel like that's sort of an outdated opinion, but but
it is something that somebody pointed out to me, is like, oh,
see that camera. This place obviously used to be a drugout.
I don't know. That's like, if you have a beeper,
(45:30):
you're either a doctor or a drug dealer. Right, No, still,
I still, I think still, But but uh, I wanted
to find on a lighter note, something that I thought
would give everyone a chuckle. That's a shout out to
Owen D who posted the following statement, Nothing is felt
(45:51):
the same since I learned that goats have accents and
can't understand other goats from foreign countries because their accents
are different. I gotta tell you I I have. I've
lost track of all the times I was in a
place where people didn't speak English as the primary language
and I tried to like pet a dog or say
hello to some other animal, and it looked at me
(46:14):
like I was an idiot, because I was because I
don't speak you know, key chay or something. Sure. Yeah,
I've always been fascinated by the idea of animals having
different flavors, of of noisemaking sounds in different countries, but
typically I think it's usually relegated to just like the
Automotopia version of it that you read in fiction, or
(46:37):
like like it was it like a like a chicken
in Germany, I think says kikery key you know here
and says cocka doodle do. It's all just it's all
just how it hits your ear, you know. I don't
think the actual animals have different accents, but who am
I to say? I don't know. I think they do.
I choose to believe that they do based on very
(46:58):
little proof. Uh So see I went to I went
twice and wrote no you got one to uh round
out the day for us. Just a quick one from
from Bob p on the on the Facebook group, he
posted a delightful name, says news reporter, can you tell
America why the Amish haven't been affected by coronavirus? And
that's the image of a woman interviewing an Amish gentleman
(47:18):
with his back from the camera, and then the Amish
gentleman says, because we don't have television, there's a lot
wrapped up in that. I just it's just that I
don't know, it's there's a lot there's a lot to
unpack there, which I just love. It's just yeah, okay,
Well on that note, uh, thank you. Thank you to Owen,
(47:41):
thank you to Joe, thank you to Tunisha, thank you
to Claire. Thank you to everyone who has written in
and helped make this week segment of Listener Mail possible
of massively appreciate it. If you want to be part
of the conversation, we'd love to hear from you. As
we've said, you can visit us on Facebook, Instagram, M
or Twitter. Check out our Facebook page. Here's where it
(48:02):
gets crazy. Uh. You can also find us as individuals
on the internet. You may find me on Instagram exclusively
if you wish at how Now Noel Brown and you
can find me on Twitter app Been Bowling hs W.
You can find me on Instagram at ben I don't
know why I emphasized it like that, it's just another
social media site. You'll find me on Instagram at Ben Bowland. Uh.
(48:23):
If you hate social media, you can give us a
phone call where one eight three three st d w
y t K. You probably know the rules by now
three minutes. Tell us the truth. Uh, get as weird
as you what, just let us know if you're okay
with us using it on the air. If you don't
(48:43):
want to do any of that, you can just get
in touch with us the good old fashioned way by
sending a nice, old school email. We are conspiracy at
iHeart radio dot com. Yeah stuff they don't want you
(49:14):
to know. Is a production of I heart Radio. For
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favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome back to
(00:25):
the show. My name is Noel. Our colleague Matt Frederick
is still on adventures. He sends his regards. He will
be returning soon. They call me Ben. We are joined
as always with our super producer Alexis code name Doc
Holiday Jackson. More importantly, you are you. You are here,
and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know.
(00:48):
It's our listener mail episode, and this one's gonna be
a little bit different. If you heard our strange news
episode U Matt was able to somehow get back on
the grid for a second and send us a story
that he wanted us to share. I hope we did
right by him. And in this episode, uh, Noel, you
(01:08):
and I have each broad a story of our own
or a piece of correspondence. But we're also probably at
some point, just justin Matt's or we're gonna read out
some social posts that we found interesting or amusing or
in one case, immensely relieving to be honest with you. Yeah,
and those will be coming from our Facebook group Here's
(01:30):
where it Gets Crazy. You two can get crazy on
Facebook with us the stuff they don't want you to know. Guys,
all you gotta do is look up Here's where it
Gets Crazy and answer a couple of basic questions just
to let us know that you actually know what the
show is. And then you're in UM And there's a
world of great content on that page and a lot
of great folks and great moderators. By the way, shout
(01:52):
out to the mods of Here's where it Gets Crazy. UM.
But yeah, I don't think we've really done too many
of these UM listener mails from Facebook group, so this
will be a good opportunity to mind that for some
some golden nuggets. Yes, agreed. You know, we always say
that the most important part of this show is you,
specifically you and our fellow listeners. Right we're pointing at
(02:13):
the screen. So today we wanted to pick up with
with just a couple of things that were of interest here.
We've been getting a lot of feedback about our exploration
of faith healing and the science behind the placebo effect,
whether it can work for good, whether it can work
(02:34):
for ill, how much efficacy does it actually have? How
much impact can the placebo of any given type of
sugar pill or whatever, how much can it have on
the human body. And this inspired our fellow listener Claire
to write in Claire, you said, hi, stuff. They don't
want you to know, guys, I just listened to your
episode on placebo's and was curious as to whether people
(02:57):
can suffer side effects from a placebo, for example, nausea
if they believe the medication they're taking can cause this.
Thanks Claire, This is interesting. This is something we didn't
really talked about. We talked a little bit about the
you know what's sometimes called the no cebo, and we
talked about how the mind is such a powerful part
(03:20):
of the body that it is. You know, it is possible,
there are proven cases of curses basically working because somebody
believed that they have been cursed. But the question about
side effects is pretty fascinating because we know the placebos
have a measurable effect. We know that a placebo is
(03:42):
not going to be a one to one substitute for
you know, actual medicine. But we didn't we didn't talk
about the idea of a side effects, so like, imagine,
just to set the scene, imagine you have, uh, you
have some kind of condition where you need to get
a shot from from a doctor and the shot you're
(04:03):
given is actually a placebo, but they don't tell you
it's a placebo. Instead, they give you the rundown of
the various possible side effects of this medication, like you
might have like a large on the side of the
bottel or not to mention that rundown they do in
those really creepy TV ads for for medications where it
(04:24):
gives you like fifty different things sometimes including like violent
diarrhea and death right right right now, that's all happening
while you see a slow motion thing of a couple
frolicking in the park for someone just like laughing at salad.
I've right, I've totally I've ruined. I've ruined so many
(04:44):
stock photos for people now because now that you have
that image of a person by themselves laughing at salad,
you're going to see it everywhere. It's like a trope.
But salad is objectively hilarious, Ben, I mean, the fact
that it's still even a thing. It blow is my mind.
Now I'm kidding. Salad is great, but there's just something
that funny looking about it, Like I can see how
I could tickle somebody in a weird pharmaceutical ad, you know,
(05:08):
especially if they're being directed to laugh at salad, especially
if they're on whatever crazy medication there on. I mean,
the honest tagline for salad is salad. It's like cooking,
it's I'm getting salad. It's uh gosh, it's a different
rabbit hole. But one note on on the point you're
bringing up here. For pharmaceutical ads, a lot of people
(05:29):
in the US don't know those are illegal in most
other countries. It is illegal to have those kind of
vague pharmaceutical ads with something that doesn't have a real name.
But it sounds like it like it sounds smooth, it
sounds like it's a helpful thing, like good beautred right,
(05:52):
or there's there's well, well Beautred, I love, I love good.
And then there's like things like so Alexa. It just
makes it. It makes me feel like I'm part of
a select group when I'm on Selexa, like I'm in
the in crowd, or or Lunesta makes me think like
I'm going to take a relaxing voyage to the moon.
You know pharmaceutically at least or or Lyrica, which might
(06:16):
as well be the name of a superhero with some
kind of song power in the m c U. But
but yes, so I'm getting us a little off topic here, Claire.
But your question is wonderful because we have a clear, consistent,
like definitive answer. Yes, placebos can cause side effects. Part
(06:39):
of that maybe due entirely to the power of suggestion.
Like we said, the doctor gives you a shot, you
believe it to be medicine, and the doctor describes the
side effects of an actual medicine to you, then your
mind can play tricks on you or your your body
can exhibit some of those side effects. It's what's happening
(07:01):
is similar to hypnosis. It's it's not we're not saying
that these doctors or medical professionals are in any way
purposely messing with you. But because of the connection between
the brain and the body, if you truly believe you're
receiving a treatment, then your body will react accordingly. So
(07:22):
if you take some kind of placebo medication and you
are warned that it will give you um usually things
like headaches, chills, nausea, maybe vertigo, depression, sleep disorders, even IBS,
stuff like that. A placebo can do those things to you.
It's it's proven this also. Yes, for the sith lords
(07:46):
in the audience today, First, as always, thanks for coming, uh,
But for the sith lords of the audience today, Yes,
this does mean that if you are a very unethical person,
there is a way to mind prank your friends. You know,
mind freak is that was the Chris Angel thing, Yeah,
that's the guy. Yeah, there's a way to mind freak
your friends into exhibiting these symptoms by making them think
(08:11):
you gave them an actual medicine. Do not do it,
That's just that's not what friends do. But I was
surprised by this. It made me go back and think
about any moments that I, or maybe you have experienced
something like a placebo effect. I mean, NOL, have you
ever knowingly had a placebo? Well? No, And it's actually
(08:34):
I'm sorry I'm being quiet because I'm actually reading through
this report on medical News today UM about a study
that came out in October of last year. UM. And
it's this study that showed that UM medical research papers
often do a poor job of describing the effects of
placebos in these studies, and oftentimes placebos themselves have side effects. UM.
(09:00):
So essentially if they're under reporting or like they say, okay,
so the whole deal of the clinical study like this
is if the placebo outperforms the drug being tested, then
the drug is not effective or that that that's very
cut and dry way of looking at it. But apparently
according to the study, UM, some of the things they
do to placebos include adding chemicals to make it taste
(09:22):
more like or even feel like the active ingredient in
the drug. So I think a lot of times people
think of placebo is just like a sugar pill or
like a saline solution of some kind. But in fact
that some of these studies they actually do have medicinal properties.
So that's a little bit off the topic, but it's interesting,
(09:43):
and it came up when I was looking for placebo
side effects. That was that was an article that came up,
And you can read that for yourself, um in a
article written by Tim Newman on October one, between nineteen
for Medical News Today. But I don't know that I have,
I've been I've certainly never participated in a clinical trial
or a drug study of any kind. UM. But you know.
(10:06):
Backing up to the listeners original question, UM, can you
feel side effects based on placebos? The answer is based
on this report that I'm seeing, A yes, you can,
because sometimes the placebos themselves have side effects that are
similar to the side effects of the actual active drug,
and that's done by design. But when we're talking about
(10:27):
the power of the mind, if you think that a
drug is going to produce nausea or headaches, uh, you're
more likely to manifest those things if you believe that
those negative things could come from taking that drug. In
the same way, the the no sebo effect kind of
describes the ability to manifest negative results from suggestion. UM.
(10:49):
I highly recommend a a British murder mystery procedure called
Wire in the Blood Um that is just really great
and grizzly and a really fantastic series in general. But
there's an episode called no Cebo that specifically revolves around
voodoo rituals and blood sacrifices, and I don't want to
spoil it, but it's the name is gives a lot away.
(11:12):
It's this idea that oftentimes belief enters into whether those
things manifest or not, and that ends up being exactly
what happens in the episode, but it ends up going
a little deeper than that, more into what we're talking
about here exactly. So check out no Cebo from Wire
in the Blood. If you've got BBC or UM maybe
it's on YouTube or something. It's somewhere on the internet.
(11:33):
This also gives gives you an opportunity to introduce a
word of the day, psycho neuro immunology, a word no
spaces uh. Studying the direct effect of brain activity on
the immune system specifically and without having a full grasp
of the science involved. UH, we see some fascinating implications
(11:58):
on on the placebo offect here the and also to
your point about the lack of accurate measurements of the
placebo effect in in many clinical trials and other studies.
This is something that the Academy capital A is aware of,
(12:18):
but we're not sure exactly how to combat it. We
know that we don't have a full understanding of the
side effects of placebo's, whether by design or whether through
action of the individual patient's mind. Uh. And we know
that it's hard to fully understand that problem if we
(12:40):
don't fully understand how this stuff is being measured in
the first place, and that's where we run into ethics.
How how much can you mess with someone's mind, a
human beings mind? Uh? And how many delatorious or unpleasant
physiological things can you make them due to themselves before
(13:02):
you violate laws of ethics. It's it's a weird question. Well, sure,
it's like, does the whole uh physicians mantra of do
no harm also applied to you know, researchers and clinical
trial operators. I mean, they're technically they're scientists, but there
(13:22):
are they physicians. I don't know, this is maybe I'm
asking a dumb question, but you know, certainly, when you
enter into a trial of some kind, especially if it's
something experimental, you are signing some kind of waiver that indemnifies,
you know, the those that are doing the experimentation on
you from any you know, um responsibility for what happens
(13:42):
to you. I guess, I mean, I know that's not
in time. I'll probably oversimplified that a little bit, but yeah,
you're right. I mean, if you're monkeying with people's perceptions,
and especially if it comes to things like clinical trials
for cancer, or maybe you enter into as a some
who is suffering from a disease into a clinical study
(14:03):
to try to try out some kind of experimental cancer treatment.
That's the thing we hear about. I got my mother
into a study. Oh, I got my sick aunt into
a study. Um, and then what if they get the placebo?
You know, like, how does that? That just seems very
uh cruel and agreed. Agreed, And there's there's one last
point before we move on to our next piece of mail. Uh.
(14:27):
This may interest you, Claire, as well as all of
our other fellow listeners who have been exploring the placebo effect.
The placebo, like a placebo treatment, doesn't just have the
capability to create side effects. This strange phenomenon extends a
bit further. People can experience withdrawal from placebo's. We have
(14:51):
to remember addiction can be um just as much a
mental condition as a medical condition. Uh So while it
may seem strange, that's something with no active ingredient could
cause side effects, we have to remember it can also
cause withdrawal. You can, uh, you can be taking a
(15:14):
pill that does nothing for years and years and years,
and then you will feel horrific and horrid after you
are no longer prescribed that place ebo. So there's power there. Yeah.
It makes me think of that recent Softi Brothers movie
with Adam Sandler, which is fantastic but also like literally
you're signing yourself up for a cinematic panic attack if
(15:34):
you watch this movie. But I have personally seen it
about three times. I know actually three times. Not about um,
but there's a character based on a real basketball player
and played by the basketball player himself, Kevin Garnett, who
gets obsessed with this uncut gem, this opal and he
borrows it from um from Adam Sandler's character, who runs
this uh this gem shop in the in the Diamond
(15:57):
District in New York City, and he believed eaves that
it will imbue him with powers to make him play better,
and he does play better, so it becomes this self
fulfilling prophecy. And then when he doesn't have the gem,
he plays poorly because he's like addicted to this sense
of of whatever this thing does for him. And it's
(16:17):
the same with gamblers, you know, wh when then that's
a big part of the movie too, where they have
to have a certain you know, lucky coin or like
whatever pair of socks or something, or you know, they
make a bet in a certain way, or bet the
same numbers or whatever. Like all of these things. You
call them superstitions, but there's power in these things that
you give them meaning and then they become meaningful to
(16:39):
your your brain right, and this this leads us to
so many other paths. It's something that we we should
do an episode on fully in the future. It reminds
me of uh kurt day Cha, which I may be
mispronouncing k u r d a I t c h A.
It's a name for a kind of shaman in an
(17:00):
aboriginal group in Australia. And from this practice we have
examples of what could arguably be called the fatal placebo effect.
So check it out if you're interested. But you can
also sit tight because we will do an episode on
that in the future, hopefully soon, because I've got to
(17:23):
justify how many weird things I've been reading about this,
So thank you very much, Claire and everybody wrote in
on that regard. And now we're gonna pause for a
word from our sponsor and we'll be back. And we
have returned. So uh no, this is one that really
(17:48):
stood out to you, and I think it's I think
it's an excellent question. You and I talked a little
bit about this off airm earlier. I don't remember how
much earlier it could have been, like could have been yesterday,
could have been the d uncleared dude. Time is uh
has lost its luster and and pretty much all of
its meaning in our lives these days. Yeah, no, we
(18:11):
we were. We were talking about, um, the Screaming Girls
of Malaysia episode, which I think was one that stuck
with all of us a bit because it combines a
lot of the element It actually combines the the the
idea of a placebo effect even could be wrapped up
in that topic, where there's this power of belief and
seeing somebody else experience something and feeling that is as
(18:31):
though you may be experiencing yourself. Um, these these young
women in the public schools in Malaysia, h it's happened
several times, have been stricken with these fits of of
screaming and seeing apparitions and almost like a sense of possession.
And then we dug a little deeper and realized that
these parts of what is it called been peninsular Malaysia,
(18:52):
they're a little more rural, Uh, they are, it's the
most religious parts of the country. A country that's already
pretty religious. Um, and so there's a sense of that
power of belief just being particularly strong in this part
of the country. UM. But we did kind of bring
up briefly how they had some similarities to the Salem
Witch Trials, where individuals were essentially accused of witchcraft, uh,
(19:17):
put on trial and killed as a result of some
young women, um acting as though they had been possessed
and speaking very specifically about seeing certain things and and
their themes in that story where you can see it
dramatically in the crucible the play. Um, but a lot
of it ended up being like, oh, these girls were
(19:38):
colluding in some way, or they sort of saw each
other behaving in certain ways and started kind of like
copycatting a little bit. And UM that that was one
of our theories maybe about what was going on with
the screaming girls in Malaysia. But in historically speaking, um,
something that comes up or surrounding the Salem witch Trials
is the notion of environmental contamination. Okay, we're gonna get
(20:00):
a little deeper that, but first I'm gonna read this
email from Tunisha. Hello, I just finished listening to the
Screaming Girls of Malaysia episode, and I'm really surprised that
possible environmental toxicity wasn't mentioned. Surely outside investigators have tested
the drinking water, air pollution, and soil, and I would
love to hear about it. Um. I thought you were
(20:22):
going to bring it up after you mentioned the witch trials,
because I know that a common modern theory is that
people were having hallucinations due to uh this is said
to be the drinking water here in the email, um
any who, thanks for putting out a great show to
Nisha from right here in Atlanta. Um. And this is
an interesting thing because it's it's definitely not something that
(20:44):
I don't believe. This is a definitive answer ben to
to to what caused the witch panic, the Satanic panic. Yeah, ergotism, ergotism,
And that wouldn't have been water. It would have been maybe.
So it was something in corn, right, isn't it something
that breaks down and becomes almost a hallucinogenic substance or
it's I'm sorry, it's like a it's a plague of
(21:06):
sorts that can affect crops, I thought, But yeah, it's
a fungus. So there's a nod to it in one
of the best horror films that came out recently, The
Witch where the where the produce is contaminated, it can
cause UH, it can cause a condition called ergo toxicosis.
(21:27):
Really what's happening is people are ingesting the alkaloids produced
by this fungus, which is called Claviceps purpurea, not the
not the best name. UH. It affects rye and other cereals,
and it can cause things like convulsive seizures and spasms, diarrhea,
(21:47):
and it can cause mania psychosis. UH. You can also
cause a really a really gross kind of dry gangreing.
It's been proposed that something like that could partially explain
the outbreak of mass hysteria in Salem at that time.
(22:08):
But I would also I would draw attention to to
the idea of uh, Saint Anthony's Fire this was this
was probably er goot poisoning. That's that's the theory where
it seems much more likely than the speculation for Salem.
So Saint Anthony's Fire is called that today because it
(22:31):
was named after monks at the Order of Saint Anthony.
They were considered to be very successful at treating UH,
this kind of gangrenous poison. Which would cause um, it
would just cause pandemonium. I mean, imagine you're already tripping
balls basically, and then you see other people who are afflicted,
(22:54):
but their physical bodies are changing, like they're seizing up arms,
they're swelling or freezing right. And and in the and
the young girls that I mentioned, Betty Paris and Abigail
Williams were the sort of patient zero I guess of
of the Salem which explosion. This this kind of like
massive spate of witchcraft accusations UM. And they were exhibiting
(23:18):
symptoms very similar to that. They had convulsions and um,
you know, essentially reporting having visions of sorts. And and
you're not kidding, Ben when you say this stuff makes
you trip balls. It actually it's it's fascinating the way
this stuff works. UM. It can infect rye the grain
that you grow, you can make bread out of UM.
(23:40):
And it's the way it works is this fungus, this
ergot fungus can grow and actually replace these shoots of
grain UM from these rise. For lack of a better
way of I am clearly not farmer. There you go,
UM with something called uh skurlsa. And uh scurlsa is
(24:04):
a persistent according to the Briton Britannica, persistent vegetative resting
spore of a certain fungi. So it's essentially it's a
dark in color. It can vary in size UM and
sometimes it can get up to four inches in length UM.
So that that's definitely this the science behind this infestation
(24:29):
and um there's another great article in in Britannica that
that talks about the whole uh potential for this ergot
poisoning in the Salem witch trials. It forms typically after
a severe winter and a particularly damp spring. And this
whole theory was put forth in nineteen seventy six by
(24:49):
Dr Linda caparele Um of the ren Slayer Polytechnic Institute
UM and found quite a bit of evidence that this
could very well have been what happened, That this was
a case of contaminated rye that would have been you know,
made into all kinds of food stuffs, including bread. Yeah,
there there are some issues. Uh, you're you're right. Nineteen
(25:12):
seventy six, that's the first serious proposal we have about
this theory. In another historian, Mary Matosian, talks about this
as well in an article in American scientists. There are
a couple issues before we get to Malaysia. We promise
you we're on the way to Malaysia here before we
get there. Um, one of the issues with the Salem
(25:35):
which trial for as far as this explanation goes, is
that er got poisoning has additional symptoms that were not
recorded in Salem. Right in some of this stuff, we
know that it can cause mental breaks, and it can
have these cognitive effects, but more people would have been
(25:56):
affected by ergot poison From what we understand it, it
would be likely at least that more people in the
town would be affected and that they would exhibit some
more of those physiological symptoms of urgot poisoning. That's not
to say this didn't happen, It's just to say that, um,
there would be additional symptoms, and that the number of
(26:18):
children who were afflicted, because we have to remember a
lot of the like Salem, we're talking about children, Uh,
there were fewer of them that would have been affected
in any other ergot poisoning epidemic that we know of.
And this, uh, this does put us in a great
spot to ask about Malaysia too, because this is something
I was wondering we're prepping this episode, you know, different
(26:42):
ways to explain this. We spend a lot of time
in the episode for anyone who hasn't heard it yet,
exploring the socio cultural lens through which people experience these things.
And then we don't spend your right, we don't spend
very much time talking about possible environmental contamination and what
it could be. So it's not rye bread, that's for sure,
(27:07):
but it could be it could be ur goot transported
through some other sort of vehicles, some other sort of carrier.
But reading reading about pollution in Malaysia exactly, we find
that it does have a very high level of air pollution,
so unfortunately not uncommon these days. But uh, but that
(27:29):
would that would appear to have impact on things like
the lungs and the heart more so than mental function.
That's right, I will say, though I did find this
is a little over my head, but I found a
report on contaminants and the soil environment in Malaysia from
y Am kind Of and s. Salma jah Uh from
(27:53):
a larger paper called Contaminants in the Soil Environment in
the austral Asia Pacific Region UM and there there is
an abstract. We're talking about how Malaysia is, you know,
undergoing a lot of very quick development and rapid industrialization UM,
and agriculture is a big part of that UM. And
(28:15):
you know, there's a lot of very fast growth in
the agriculture sector UM. And along with that comes increases
in urban populations and creations of new urban areas UM.
And along with that, you know, sometimes industry outpaces UM.
What's the word been oversight or regulation, right. And so
(28:37):
there is a list of contaminants in the soil of Malaysia,
and there's a particularly interesting column that talks about Peninsula Malaysia,
and it does appear that it does contain UH some
pretty high levels of some uh some contaminants UM. It's
divided into several regions Pennsua Malaysia, Saba, and Sarawak. And
(29:00):
I did notice that UH in some of these categories,
the number for Peninsula Malaysia was a good bit higher
even than some of the other uh the other regions. UM.
Some of the specific contaminants that are listed I am
not familiar with, and they're certainly not household names, so
I definitely want to do some more digging into that
(29:20):
UM but it does have to do with things that
are specifically found in the soil, and then it could
be considered contaminants. So um, and then I found an
article in looking into this about how contaminants well maybe
don't make you trip or you know, have some kind
of like psychotic episode, just basic environmental contaminants can have
(29:42):
an effect on your mental health and just your well
landing like lead absolutely bad. Yeah, I want to see
also in support of the point you're making, Uh, we
looked into drinking water in Kellenton as well, because it
seemed like that would be um, a good place to start,
like that would be one of the most ubiquitous common
(30:04):
vehicles of transporting and contaminant would be the air water
or as you said, the soil. And uh, we didn't
find I didn't find evidence of a hallucinogenic agent, but
we do know to the fantastic point you just raised
their noal, something doesn't have to immediately make somebody mentally
unstable for it to have a long term cognitive effect.
(30:28):
This is where we introduced something that may be familiar
to our fellow listeners. As a matter of fact, some
of us may be listening to this conversation and saying
I can't believe they're not going to talk about lead
contamination and crime. This is related, if only tangentially. There
is a long running proposed link between elevated blood levels
(30:54):
in children as they're developing and increased rates of crime
later in life. We know the facts about lead. It's toxic,
it's dangerous to multiple organs uh in the brain especially,
and individuals who are exposed to lead at young ages
do seem to be more vulnerable to learning disabilities, decreased
(31:17):
i q A, d h D, lifelong problems with impulse control. Uh.
So now they're they're experts who are proposing that lead
contamination may have a possible long term effect on various communities.
There's still you can see how that research gets complicated
(31:38):
and very sticky, very quickly. You'll see other studies contradicting it.
But one of the reasons I think the question about
environmental contamination in this case of the screaming girls in
Malaysia is such a good question is exactly that we
do not understand the long term effects of these um
(32:00):
We don't understand long term effects of these contaminants. We
could say with reasonable certitude that it's probably not er
got poisoning specifically because of the way people were affected
and the length of time they were affected or when
they recovered, etcetera. But we we simply cannot rule out
(32:25):
some possibility of an environmental contaminant. That's where I'm at
at least, what do you mean? I'm I'm with you, Ben,
and I want to just double back really quickly. The
study that I mentioned at the top of the show, Um,
it was very in depth and dealt with a lot
of different types of you know, acidity and different soils
and stuff. So I don't want to couch that as
as evidence that necessarily that Peninsulasia has higher rates of
(32:48):
contamination than the rest of the country. But I will
say I did find an article that does say that
Malaysia has significant water pollution problems, UM, and that does
stem from that rapid industrialization and that I talked about
that that study reference. I think that holds true. UM.
But it points out that Malaysia doesn't actually release individual
(33:10):
values of river water quality measurements for monitoring sites. It
just releases it kind of on a spectrum and three
rankings clean, slightly polluted, and polluted, but won't really give
you a breakdown of what materials are in the drinking water.
So I think it's something that we probably owe it
to ourselves and the listeners too. Maybe revisit another time, um,
(33:33):
but I do think that you're right then this is
not something we can absolutely rule out. Agreed on all
counts here, and thank you for raising this important point, Tunisia. Also,
I believe that you are you are a fellow Georgian,
so it's it's great to hear from the hometown crew
(33:53):
here as well. Um, this is something that we are
gonna have to spend some time exploring. So I don't
know what anybody else was planning for this weekend, but
don't invite me to your parties because I am going
to be reading a lot about environmental contamination in different
parts of the world, and let's see, let's see if
(34:16):
we can find something there. In the meantime, we're gonna
pause for a word from our sponsor and then we'll
return with our I guess our very first Matt Frederick
Tribute M segment. Okay, and we're back with the first
(34:39):
ever semi annual. Hopefully I don't want to be gone
too much. We miss you, Matt. Matt Frederick Appreciation Corner,
where in we also make this a listener and UM
Facebook group member appreciation corner because we're gonna pull a
couple of comments from our Here's Where Gets Crazy, uh
(35:01):
Facebook group, which you two can be a part of.
Just go to Facebook dot com and and and search
for Here's Where It's Crazy and you can be part
of the fund too and maybe end up on one
of these. But you know what, I think it's not
fair to only do this one mask on. We should
probably figure out a way to incorporate this in a
little more regularly. And I've got to go. I've got
one I think that's been on a lot of people's feeds. Um,
what's up with this UFO and Jersey year about this?
(35:24):
Uh this Jersey UFOs on with I mean, you know it.
Look it's it's I don't want to like let the
wind out of the sales too quickly. But there were
a ton of reports UM, originally on TikTok Monday of
the week that we're recording this. But yeah, there were
a lot of reports flying around the internet UM this week,
starting with TikTok user handle at baby Jenny, who posted
(35:46):
a video of a pretty cool uh legit looking UFO
hovering over New Jersey's Route twenty one. There are other
people looking at it from the side of the road
with their phones up, you know. Uh and um just
kind of slack jawed and like I said, the way
the the video pans very quickly. It's kind of a
(36:07):
whip pan situation. You just kind of catch a glimpse
of it, but really does look like a broad daylight, uh,
little saucer situation, just kind of hovering in in in
in space, um, up there in the Jersey sky. Um.
And the video got four million views, more than a
than six hundred thousand likes uh in just a day. Um.
(36:28):
And then uh, the truth came out, as it tends
to do. Um. You know, it's always on the table
that a that a thing like that hovering slowly could
be a blimp. But we heard the truth from none
other than a representative from good Year the blimp people. Yeah,
(36:49):
like the blimp people. They called into Insider and said, hey, uh,
we were flying a new blimp in New York that
day in northern New Jersey on Monday to capture aerial
footage of the NF fell game between the Pittsburgh Steelers
and the New York Giants. The MetLife Stadium, which I'm
assuming was only was populated by a little cardboard cutouts
of people. Have you seen those photographs baseball? There's there's
(37:12):
one that was in the Bay Area where it was like,
you know, this insane blade runner sky like just like
you know, desert kind of Sepia colored with because of
these wildfires, and then all of these really haunting cardboard
cutout people sitting in the stands watching the baseball game.
(37:34):
I'll do, uh do one crazieruck in South Korea, a
company populated a stadium with sex dolls and then this
said they were just life life mannequins. Kind of stories
Strange news daily on that one. What I think happened
is that they wanted to buy mannequins and they got
(37:54):
a good deal, and uh, they didn't do enough research
to think route that these are clearly uh sex toys
in the stands. But you know, everybody is, everybody's trying
to make it work. Also, shout out to good Year
if you're listening. A number of years ago, I got
(38:15):
very close to get to ride on one of those blimps.
It's a dream of mine. Uh, it's it's actually kind
of kind of exclusive. You have to get invited. Did
you know that, Like can't buy a ticket. I wouldn't
imagine that you could. But it's it's also not like
the Oscar Meyer Wiener mobile that just sort of rolls
around the different places and you can go in and
check it out. Definitely a little harder to get up
(38:36):
to that good Year blimp. And yeah, can you imagine
where you park a blimp? Do you more? A blimp
isn't do you have to dry docket you sort of
like tie it up and or do you deflate it
and then there's an inflated every time you're gonna use it. Um, yeah,
that's what you do. Okay, Well, there's a there's a
rope that hangs down at all times, and there's a
person in the ground who is in charge of that
that aspect, and so it's like if you're in a
(38:59):
blimp crew, you know, some days of the week you
get to fly the blimp. Other days you have to
be the person holding the rope. It's it's it's like
it's like an elaborate inflatable kite. It goes up. Yeah,
but I will say. The thing that is remarkable about
the video though, and you can literally hear people of
gas you say, oh my god, having their minds blown.
(39:20):
It's got this little blinking light on the bottom of
it that like is very bright, and it's right in
the middle of it, and it has the appearance of
the thing at the bottom of the classic sci fi
ufo that beams people up, you know, that shoots up
that wide swath of of blue light and then you
get you get caught up in the tractor beam and
(39:41):
pulled up to presumably have things done to your butt um.
So I think that might have been what did it,
because it also looks very symmetrical, and I typically think
of a blimp as being tapered, you know, like fat
on one end on the front end and a little
tapered on the back. But it really does look like
a flying saucer. And so I could see how it
would have freaked some people out. And and even when
(40:01):
Goodyear chimed in that that people weren't having it. They
thought that was fake news and continued proliferating this stuff
on on on Twitter and Facebook. And I think finally
now people are coming to terms with the fact that
this was in fact a blimp uh and not and
not a UFO. But given all the research and the
revelations about state level monitoring new UFOs, we know that
(40:24):
something freaky is happening in the skies that I'm also
I'm referring to the US program, but I'm also referring
to Japan, which it turns out may have been investigating
UFOs for some time as well. Uh, Matt, if you
are listening to this, we went through these things, uh,
and I was looking for some stuff that would be
(40:45):
interesting to you, but also looking for some stuff that
might give you a chuckle. So here's one that I
thought would be interesting. This is the kind of thing
that from Matt's perspective, I would I would imagine Matt
being very uh very into exploring. And that is that
the FBI has warned doorbell cameras like ring can give
(41:08):
an early warning of police searches. You saw this too, right, No, no, no,
not tell me more about it, but I look up
and follow along. But this is news to me. Yeah.
So this came through a leaked FBI bulletin, and we
found out about this courtesy of Joe b On. Here's
where it gets crazy. Essentially, the FBI didn't mean this
(41:30):
to be public knowledge, but they said, ironically, the rise
of the surveillance state is letting residents of a home
that has uh, you know, a ring camera or something
like that. It's letting them get a heads up if
law enforcement is showing to conduct a search, which is
(41:51):
kind of ironic given that the concern of a mass
surveillance state is always being vulnerable to some kind of search,
right or some lack of privacy. This reminds me of ways.
I used to love the GPS app Ways, and it
did it did something that really irritated law enforcement when
(42:13):
it would let you know if there was a speed
trap ahead and you could warn other people. Well. Sure,
there's even a little icon on ways specifically for like
a cop card. It's it's a little animated police car
that shows up on your map. Uh. And then you
get the prompt um, which isn't entirely the safest thing
in the world, whether to confirm or deny that that's
still there. So it's sort of crowdsourced information about where
(42:37):
these law enforcement officials are posted up. I don't know, Ben,
don't don't you think it's sort of our prerogative to
get an early warning if law enforcement under our door,
especially considering things like what happened to Brianna Taylor and
and and all these unlawful no non warrants and you know,
problems with the way warrants are served and people getting killed.
(42:58):
I mean, I I don't know. This seems like a
non issue to me. I I don't. I feel like
I want to know uh and be prepared, right, I mean,
consider the consider the murder of Katherine Johnston was ninety
two years old when when she was killed by police
(43:20):
in her home here in Atlanta, Georgia. The real issue
here is private service versus UH public entity. Right, because
Amazon is already blurring the lines with this UH. We
know that they have aggressively marketed themselves to local police departments.
(43:40):
And on March sevent the CEO of ring Won, Jamie Simonov,
sent out an email with the subject line going to
war UH and they said their new mission is to
use consumer electronics to fight crime and closer and closer
PSI patient with public law enforcement. So the line is
(44:03):
being blurred. Technology is disrupting the line between private and
public entities. And I think that's that's the heart of
the concern. If I buy, if I was the kind
of person to own a ring or something like that,
and it somehow didn't tell me when certain people were
at the door, then in my opinion, it's a broken service.
(44:23):
I shouldn't use it. I should get a refund. Uh.
So there that's one thing I thought would interest you, Matt.
It is interesting. I wanted to point out one thing
from my my experience. I used to live in a place,
um two places before where I currently live. Um that
when I checked it out, Uh, somebody pointed out to
me that it probably used to be a drug house
(44:47):
or perhaps a manufacturing house, because there was a pretty
conspicuous camera amount on the top of the of the
like of the roof kind of that was like and
and I don't know, maybe that was jumping to conclusions,
but I understand that's almost like it does have sort
of a reputation of like, oh, if you have a
camera like that, you're trying to protect yourself from the cops,
(45:10):
or you're trying to get an early warning signal or
something like that, which is interesting to me given the
age of the Internet of Things and us wanting to
have literally a camera in our fridge, Like I I
feel like that's sort of an outdated opinion, but but
it is something that somebody pointed out to me, is like, oh,
see that camera. This place obviously used to be a drugout.
I don't know. That's like, if you have a beeper,
(45:30):
you're either a doctor or a drug dealer. Right, No, still,
I still, I think still, But but uh, I wanted
to find on a lighter note, something that I thought
would give everyone a chuckle. That's a shout out to
Owen D who posted the following statement, Nothing is felt
(45:51):
the same since I learned that goats have accents and
can't understand other goats from foreign countries because their accents
are different. I gotta tell you I I have. I've
lost track of all the times I was in a
place where people didn't speak English as the primary language
and I tried to like pet a dog or say
hello to some other animal, and it looked at me
(46:14):
like I was an idiot, because I was because I
don't speak you know, key chay or something. Sure. Yeah,
I've always been fascinated by the idea of animals having
different flavors, of of noisemaking sounds in different countries, but
typically I think it's usually relegated to just like the
Automotopia version of it that you read in fiction, or
(46:37):
like like it was it like a like a chicken
in Germany, I think says kikery key you know here
and says cocka doodle do. It's all just it's all
just how it hits your ear, you know. I don't
think the actual animals have different accents, but who am
I to say? I don't know. I think they do.
I choose to believe that they do based on very
(46:58):
little proof. Uh So see I went to I went
twice and wrote no you got one to uh round
out the day for us. Just a quick one from
from Bob p on the on the Facebook group, he
posted a delightful name, says news reporter, can you tell
America why the Amish haven't been affected by coronavirus? And
that's the image of a woman interviewing an Amish gentleman
(47:18):
with his back from the camera, and then the Amish
gentleman says, because we don't have television, there's a lot
wrapped up in that. I just it's just that I
don't know, it's there's a lot there's a lot to
unpack there, which I just love. It's just yeah, okay,
Well on that note, uh, thank you. Thank you to Owen,
(47:41):
thank you to Joe, thank you to Tunisha, thank you
to Claire. Thank you to everyone who has written in
and helped make this week segment of Listener Mail possible
of massively appreciate it. If you want to be part
of the conversation, we'd love to hear from you. As
we've said, you can visit us on Facebook, Instagram, M
or Twitter. Check out our Facebook page. Here's where it
(48:02):
gets crazy. Uh. You can also find us as individuals
on the internet. You may find me on Instagram exclusively
if you wish at how Now Noel Brown and you
can find me on Twitter app Been Bowling hs W.
You can find me on Instagram at ben I don't
know why I emphasized it like that, it's just another
social media site. You'll find me on Instagram at Ben Bowland. Uh.
(48:23):
If you hate social media, you can give us a
phone call where one eight three three st d w
y t K. You probably know the rules by now
three minutes. Tell us the truth. Uh, get as weird
as you what, just let us know if you're okay
with us using it on the air. If you don't
(48:43):
want to do any of that, you can just get
in touch with us the good old fashioned way by
sending a nice, old school email. We are conspiracy at
iHeart radio dot com. Yeah stuff they don't want you
(49:14):
to know. Is a production of I heart Radio. For
more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
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Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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