Listener Mail: Murders in Canada, MKULTRA and the Unabomber, Organized Crime and Boxing

A caller reports possible cover-ups of murders in Canada. A listener asks about the rumoured relationship between MKULTRA and the Unabomber. A fellow Conspiracy Realist sets the guys on a journey into the world of Irish organized crime and boxing. All this and more in this week's listener mail.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called
me Ben. We are joined as always with our super
producer Alexis code named Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly, you
are you, You are here and that makes this stuff
they don't want you to know. It's that time again
for our listener male segment Doc code named Doc. Can

(00:46):
we get some kind of applause que terfict because we
went back through and we scorch voicemail earth a cavalcade
of stories from the best part of the show, which
is you and your fellow listeners. We've also been getting
some some great responses to U. Two stories that we

(01:09):
covered in the past begains firsthand follow ups. Uh, what
we have for you today, one question that I think
has been on a lot of our minds for a
number of years. One story that was in particular very
new to me. Uh. And then another disturbing follow up
to some things we've covered occurring in the land of

(01:30):
our neighbors to the north, which would be Canada for
anyone who can't tell from our access somehow. Uh So
with this in mind, uh, gentlemen, where would you like
to start? What we like to start with government plans,
the fuss with mind control? Would we like to start
with crime and sports? Or would we like to dive

(01:55):
into perhaps the most grizzly stuff? How about sports? Cry
that sounds fascinating to Yeah, that's where you want to go.
Huh you want to travel, travel to Ireland a little
bit and go worldwide with it. Let's do all right?
Taking it away, we are jumping to a message. Then

(02:15):
don't worry. If you sent this to us, you asked
us to keep the email confidential. I have removed anything
that could be possibly identifying here and I'm just going
to read the content of what you sent us. So
this comes from anonymous boxing fan. Cool cool. This person writes,
I'm a casual boxing fan and last month I had

(02:38):
clicked on a link on a BBC article that caught
my attention. The article connected Tyson Fury. This is a
very big boxer, big name in the boxing world. Tyson
Fury to a man named Daniel Kinahan, kin Ahn k
I N A H A N who was a known
Irish crime boss dealing in heroin, guns and money. Launch. R.

(03:00):
Daniel Kinahan was the head of a boxing management company
m g M, which is now named m t K.
I believe it was a pr move to change the name,
cleanse the image, and have Mr Kinahan take more of
a back seat. I know you can relate, but I
went down a rabbit hole of reading about the Irish
gang war between the Kinahans and the Hutches h U

(03:23):
T C H. A shootout at away in one of
the shooters dressed in drag, multiple crime families, retaliation murders
seemed like something out of a movie. It shocked me
that Mr Kinahan was able to still be associated with
boxing negotiations and management. M t K is now taking
over boxing by managing many more fighters and is expanding

(03:44):
into the United States. I was surprised to hear an
associate was murdered in Connecticut. Come to find out, the
U s CEO of m t K, this boxing management firm,
Bob Yalen or Yellen y A L E N, lives
in Connecticut. I'll provide a few links to articles in
the BBC documentary This hasn't gotten much coverage in the US,

(04:05):
and thought it might be a topic you guys would
like covering. Keep up the great work. Kind regards anonymous
boxing fan. So, oh boy, is this listener correct and
that this is a rabbit hole I have. I have
to be honest with everyone here. I kind of stuck
to the BBC as a primary source just because there

(04:26):
was such great reporting coming out of that that outfit. UM,
we're gonna discuss it a little bit today what we
found thus far, and guys, I think this is there's
enough red meat here for a full episode. You know,
we're talking about this off air earlier. I would go
a step further. I would say, shout out to Don

(04:48):
King want to talk about crime and boxing? I would
say that, um, sports in crime is one episode by itself,
and this in boxing crime in particular second episodes. Maybe
we call it a two part series while we're giving
ourselves homework and promising. If you don't hear a two
part series from us, please directly do not hesitate. Send

(05:11):
an email to our complaint department Jonathan Strickland at Ighart
Radio dot com. Um, but give us a couple of
months to sort this out. But let's let's get into
this story first bat because I think what I think,
what we owe our fellow conspiracy realist. Here is a
little bit, a little taste, a little bit of an
overview of why this has to be a full episode.
What do you say, Oh, yeah, sure? Well, First of all,

(05:33):
there are two things that you probably already know but
are worth stating here the reason why sports in general
and especially boxing are so right for corruption or are
ready to be taken over essentially by a group that
maybe makes money in um in the black market in

(05:54):
some way. So there are two things you need to know.
The first, there's so much money to be made in
the motion of large boxing, like like big boxing matches,
big fights of any kind. We're talking m M A
as well, but specifically in boxing. There's a long standing
history of lots and lots of money to be made
when there's a big exhibition fight or a big title fight,

(06:17):
especially title fights and heavyweights, my goodness, because you can
get a lot of people to view them, you can
get a lot of eyes on them if you're going
to broadcast it in any way, and you can get
a ton of people to show up in real life
to an event. You can do it in a stadium.
It's just good money from an event standpoint. The other
is that betting exists and it's illegal in many places,

(06:41):
and many kinds of betting is legal and you can
do that, and that's a whole big market. But on
the other side of that is the illegal betting, the
off the book stuff, the stuff that's handled by people
you know that maybe loaning some money out to others.
You know. Um, there's what we can talk around it.

(07:02):
But organized crime essentially can make a ton of money
through betting on sports like this off the books. So
just putting that out there as where we're level set
now to discuss this stuff. Let's jump to what our
listener was talking about. He linked us to a BBC
article titled Daniel Kinahan questions over Fury, Joshua fight promoters,

(07:26):
drug gang links. This is Daniel Kinahan, this person who
is allegedly a crime boss. He is linked to Tyson Fury,
one of the biggest names in boxing. He won a
heavyweight match in then he left the sport for a while,
came back one some more titles and he's got another
big fight coming along. I believe it's in um and

(07:49):
I don't know. I don't think that's happened yet, Correct
me if I'm wrong. This article is from June, but
this whole thing, this whole article is about Tie Sin.
Fury went on social media and made a post about
how he he thanked Dan, a guy named Dan, and
then mentioned Dan Kinahan in particular for making this fight happen.

(08:11):
So in some way Canahan made a connection, sealed the
deal with a handshake or something to to make this
fight actually occur. And Tyson loves this because not only
is this, you know, bringing him up on a fame level,
He's gonna get a huge fight. He's also gonna make
a ton of money because of this fight. And the Irish.

(08:34):
There's an Irish Prime Minister named Leo Varadkar v A
R A d k a R who came forward after
he heard this post that Tyson Fury made and he
said he was taken aback by these comments because they
were referring to someone with a quote checkered history. And again,
this is my first time learning about this person, Daniel Kinahan.

(08:56):
But uh, this guy has a history. I'm gonna jump
to a portion of another article and this one is
describing Daniel Kinahan. Now this is very important. This is
a quote. Mr Kinahan has no criminal convictions, okay when
we're talking about this person, but he was named in

(09:17):
Irish courts as the head of a prominent drug cartel.
The Criminal Assets Bureau which is part of the Irish police,
it's the GUARDA. You've probably heard of them just from television,
That's where I've heard of them from. And some reporting.
Um they say that he controlled and managed operations of
this crime syndicate or one of these crime syndicates and

(09:38):
quote has associations that facilitate international criminal activity in Europe, Asia,
the Middle East and South America and Europole. According to
the BBC identified this gang that was linked to Mr
Kinahan as one of the main cocaine importers in Europe.
It says it now smuggled its surplus supplies to trees

(10:00):
as far away as Australia. And the FBI qualifies him
as a narco terrorist as well, I believe exactly. Yes,
So he is identified as being this prime you know,
member of this group, but he has no convictions as
in nobody has ever Maken made anything stick yet to Kinahan. Um,

(10:22):
spoiler alert for me, and I think he'll be a
parent later in this segment. Um, are we going to
get to why that's not happening or why he's walking around? Well,
I will talk to me about it, talk to me.
Let's wait, let's wait till the let's wait till the
we need to learn more. I think first, well, there's

(10:43):
more stuff to this and it's huge, and it's like
I'm I'm breaking a part of the timeline already and
by telling this to you, sorry, terrible storytelling going on
over here. But there was there was a shootout that
are our emailer mentioned there there or there are several
deaths that started with the event that was described there.

(11:04):
And that's really how the world, or at least the
BBC came to know Dan Kinahan. Uh. And they're saying
in Ireland in February, that's when the there was gunmen
that attacked away in at a boxing match and it
resulted in the murder of somebody who was a leader
I suppose in the Kinahan crime cartel. At least that's

(11:27):
the way that it was reported. And it's thought that
perhaps Daniel Kinahan was at was the intended target of
those gunmen, but then instead killed somebody also high up
in the organization, just not not the target. Feud. Yeah,
this is the this is the Hutch Kinahan feud. And
there's a long timeline there of like a murder that

(11:49):
takes place in Spain, and then from there there's a
cascade of retaliation murders with between the two families, with
the crime families. And there's even footage you may have
seen this. There's some pretty grizzly footage of this occurrence
that you can find online. And there's a BBC Panorama
documentary that includes portions of that footage. UM, you can

(12:15):
find it online in a couple of places in the US.
It's kind of difficult to track down and to be
able to watch, but you can find portions of it
on YouTube if you search Panorama, BBC Boxing and maybe
Daniel Kinahan. UM, you can find you can find it,
or you know, watch it, watch it in a legitimate
way if you can, if you want to pay for

(12:35):
it and support the broadcaster. It's just it's difficult to
do and it doesn't support Kinahan. If that's what you're
worried about. No, no, no, no, no, no, We're not
even at We didn't even get to the heart of
the stuff. The concept that this guy who is allegedly
making all of this money through this crime syndicate, selling drugs,
selling guns, doing all kinds of other things like that,

(12:57):
is then profiting off of these boxing matches that are
you know, on pay per view, their their broadcast the
world over. They make millions and millions and millions of
dollars and potentially can launder all of that money easily
through betting. Right, that's one of the great things about
about sports and betting. You can launder craploads of money

(13:19):
through that stuff. Um, just that these are boxing matches
that end up being title fights for organizations that are
not necessarily connected with or with organized crime in anyway.
So it's like selling the image of the sports, selling
the image of those organizations, and in this case, actually
getting people killed because of this this gang war. I

(13:45):
think the most remarkable thing too about the story on
the BBC and not the most remarkable and being I'm
being silly, but there's an amazing picture of this guy,
Tyson Fury uh and he's wearing like this really like
crazy print at it looks like it has like eight
balls on it or billiard balls or no, it's like
actually images of like boxers printed on the jacket and

(14:06):
he's wearing no shirt underneath it and a necktie just
around his bare neck. Uh, it's an absolute Are you
talking about Tyson Fury, Yeah, Tyson Furies. Amazing, Dude, look
at this guy. He's he's um, he's hailed and I
don't even want to use the term, but as like um,

(14:28):
the traveler King maybe or something like maybe that's how
you would say it. Now. The baby the Panorama I
think referred to him as the Gypsy King. I don't know,
but he's he's like, he's pretty awesome. You can see
some well. In my opinion, he is a very interesting character,
let's put it that way, because he really kind of
just jumped on the scene and then he went into

(14:49):
some hard times, you got in some hard, rough places,
came back and he seems to be pretty inspiring just
in that he just goes for it. I wonder if
Brad Pitt's character and was based on him. Uh. Mickey
O'Neill from Snatch is like a known cinematic adaptation of
Tyson Fury. Okay makes perfect. It's like how that's that's

(15:09):
actually how I learned about Tyson Fury. Uh no, ding
on Brad Pitt's acting, but I thought this had to
come from some way. That's that's blowing my mind. Is
that true? Oh my gosh, because I you know, I
didn't learn about him until he was kind of working
his way up to that title fighting the late teens. Well,
that's the that's the rumor. At least I haven't. I

(15:31):
haven't talked with Brad or Tyson about this, but maybe
maybe we can get them together and see um. But yeah,
that's that's the concept, you know. And of course there
are people who would say they object to that characterization,
you know what I mean, is it the perpetuation of
the stereotype and so on. But the but from what

(15:52):
I understand, yeah, Mickey O'Neill and Snatches is based on
Tyson Fury. There are inspired by and there's a little
bit of Um. I don't know if the timeline works out,
but there isn't Who who directed Snatch again, Guys Guy Ritchie,
Guy Ritchie. He's a boxing fan as well, so he
would have been aware of it. Absolutely. Yeah, And like

(16:13):
born in Bread, you know, British subject good points. So
this what also is weird here. I haven't watched the
Panorama documentary yet, Matt, but what's weird to me here
is that, yes, a ton of money moves through boxing.
Long time listeners, you know, we didn't agree with Brian

(16:34):
Towey on absolutely everything that he claims regarding sports and corruption.
But boxing is a hot historically at least a hot
bed of corruption, and it's an enormously um promising way
to launder dirty money. If you happen to be running
a criminal organization that makes north of one billion dollars

(16:57):
in terms of net worth, this, this will get you
a lot closer to having that money cleaned than say
a car wash or even selling you know, arguably even
selling even the high end art trade. Oh yeah, we're
I think we're forgetting about laser tag that you never
forget about la But before we we we need to

(17:21):
move on to the next thing. I just want to
put a couple of sources in your minds, so if
you want to read more you can. There is a
double in Live Dot i E article here. It's titled
Daniel Kinahan is a dangerous man who brings terror to
boxing world, says Barry mcginnon mc mc McKinnon, m c
g u I g A n mcgigan. I don't know. Sorry,

(17:45):
he's he's a famous person who I should know how
to pronounce their name. But you can look that up
on Double and Live. It's got some great reporting on this,
and also if you go to talk sport dot com,
you can read an entire rebuttal essentially from Daniel Kinahan himself,
where he takes all of these allegations that have been

(18:05):
hitting him for about fifteen years or you know, for
the allegations has been hitting for a long time. He
talks about his long connection to the sport of boxing.
It's really interesting to see it to see um, a
PR statement like this put forward by someone that is
allegedly this big crime boss, because it if you're just

(18:26):
reading it, it doesn't feel like it's a crime boss,
and it just makes you go, Wow, the PR team
is really good. This guy's brilliant or something is going
on here. Uh, I don't know it. It feels like
a movie. It's just like what our emailer said, It
feels like a movie. And one thing I would add

(18:47):
that question we set up just a little bit earlier. Uh,
why are none of these charges sticking even though we
have these contradictory reports. You see that, you see that
article you mentioned map, but then you also see different
people in the boxing industry who are choosing to remain anonymous,
and they're they're outright saying like there's a great Insider

(19:09):
article about this. They're outright saying, yeah, Kinahan is our fixer.
When um Tyson Fury is talking about getting the deal
over the line, that may mean that Kinahan called some
people and told them to straighten up, you know, uh
or maybe maybe anywhere from verbally bullied them to maybe

(19:30):
a threat. I don't know. Yeah, if he really is
who he is, then just getting a call, right he's like, hey,
this is this is Dan. I need this to happen there, Okay,
ye cool, all right. Don't want guys with a dressed
like police officers coming into a World Boxing Organization match
at a hotel. Still just a it's just a phone
conversation that without having the explicit transcript of that. You know,

(19:54):
you have to be careful legally, but you you know,
one thing that doesn't help people who who are certain
that this man is a crime boss. One thing that
doesn't help as far as prosecuting him, is that he
no longer lives in Ireland. He like he for almost
a year now he's been living in Dubai, which which

(20:15):
is um a little bit expensive, you know, so it
does it would give prosecutor as a question about his income.
I would imagine, I hear they have a great mall
in Dubai. Bay is a great mall. It's like one
big giant living mall, isn't It's Dubai also a place
where like the rich and famous and potentially crooked kind

(20:37):
of kick it out of the prying eyes of a
law enforcement. That can be said about every every big
major of metropolitan city imagine. But Dubai for sure has that,
Like I've heard that before, right, because of the wealth,
the the opulence that that is that just is shown
on the streets and in the architecture and all that stuff.

(21:00):
I guess I'm just like I've maybe more specifically like
people with the very luxurious and dare I say, hedonistic lifestyle,
just be careful. Cultural norms are very different, Yeah, yeah,
very very different in ways that could very different and
very strict. Actually many as many places in the world

(21:22):
are as I hope we have said before. Any time
you travel internationally, be very aware of the be very
aware of the laws and the moray's of the place
in which you move, and do not violate them. Because
if you go to a country that says they have
the death penalty for something that you would consider relatively minor,

(21:43):
like marijuana possession, the fact that you consider relatively minor
if you're from Denver, is not going to change their
decision that you should die. So be very aware of this.
Um your opinion in that matter is relatively minor, right right? Uh?
And I think a lot of it when we're talking
about high level operators, uh, in the in the gray

(22:06):
area with great financial power. Uh. A lot of the
concerns about where to be located trace back to extradition treaties.
That's why you see a lot of people that make
you You might think, Huh, that's weird. You're a billionaire,
why are you living in this place? I AM wouldn't
have ordinarily, aren't you more of a Monaco kind of dude? Right? Bro?

(22:29):
But they're they're living in those places for a reason. Now,
since nothing has been proven against Mr Kinahan, all they
can be said is that he is living a good
life in Dubai in what has been described multiple times
as a safe haven. Yeah, it's all. It's also a
tax haven. There's lots of loopholes in terms of taxes

(22:50):
on imports and exports. Uh, taxes on corporate profits and
capital gains. Corporate taxes in general are not a thing.
And there's also no customs to xays on goods that
you bring in or out of what they call free
zones there. Uh. That's you know, on the corporate level,
but there's also plenty of individual tax benefits as well.
So all right, so you know, let us know what

(23:14):
you think about Daniel Kinahan and boxing and what's going
on there, and let us know if you think Dan's
life has any similarities to Tommy Shelby. It feels like
there might be something there. It feels very similar to me,
but maybe I'm completely wrong. Let us know what you think.
We'll be right back with another message from you, and

(23:39):
we're back more messages from you the public. Uh, that
is you the most important part of the show, as
Ben would say, Uh, and we all agree it's just
the truth. Uh. I have a voicemail I would like
to play for everyone. If that's all right, all right,
when this one comes from Chris and a concerned c
I a experiment with psychedelic and other drugs and also

(24:04):
a very famous bomber that we all know and love.
I mean that love. Here we go Chris again. I
swear I have an actual lifns you know. But I
was just sitting here drinking and thinking about your podcast.
You may have done this, I don't know, but just
a topic headline. Did MK Ultra make the unit bomber?

(24:24):
You can make an argument that it did. Kazinski was
definitely psychologically I don't want to say tortured, but yeah,
tortured um private company. Also, yeah, like the manifesto is
like it was written by anybody else in a little
less extreme it would be groundbreaking, important work. I think
Kazinski is a terrible person who shouldn't be laughtered as

(24:47):
a champion of of anything. But um, he's definitely no idiot.
I don't know what compelled him to blow people up anonymously.
It's the coward is terroristic act. And I am very
glad he is rutting away in a super Max and
Florence or terror hope. But um, yeah, maybe that's like

(25:08):
some some blowback from mk Ultra So yeah, thanks again. Um,
I work in the area tech i'd quality assurance um
um um from tin hat Looney who Yeah, I know
I called too much. Sorry, definitely never apologizing. Chris, thanks

(25:30):
for it, for the for the voicemail, and we believe
that you have a life, Chris. We do. We know
that this is only a small portion of it, and
we're lucky that you devoted it to us. UH and
bringing up this topic, which I think is super interesting.
There's apparently a lot of controversy around this Discovery Channel
documentary that came out about the UNI bomber a while back,
Um the Union bomber himself, Ted Kazynski, Theodore Kazinski wrote

(25:55):
a letter kind of debunking personally this notion that put
forth Uh in the documentary. This article from Deadline from
January seven, two thousand eighteen, headline retired FBI agent the
UNI Bomber and I agree TV series on him is
inaccurate and then so specifically referring to mk ultra, Um

(26:19):
Kazynski has this to say from several people have received
letters concerning that Discovery Channel series about me, and it's
clear from their letters that the Discovery series is even
worse than most of the other media stories about me.
In fact, the greater part of it is pure fiction.
Among other things they apparently passed on to their viewers
the tale that, through the agency of Harvard professor H. A.

(26:41):
Murray I was repeatedly tortured as part of the mk
Ultra mind control program conducted by the c i A.
UM as we all know, mk Ultra is programs is
not Kausnski speaking. Where as as like a kind of
a response to this notion that UM our enemies were
developing mind control drugs, uh, things like liquid th HC

(27:06):
and l s D and other you know, mind altering
substances were given to people, often anonymously or like basically
people were like dosed and they were observed, uh, and
to see how it would affect them. Or for example,
UM there is in their instances of people being dosed
with liquid t HC and then try to see how

(27:28):
loose their lips were. As as far as like you know, secrets,
agency secrets and things like that. UM there's a story
about one particular agent that was involved in this program
named George White, who dosed a mafia member with this
th HC by ejecting the cigarettes and got him to
get pretty loosey goosey about stuff that would have had

(27:50):
him killed as a member of you know, lo Cosa
nostra Um. So interesting stuff there. But yeah, back to Kazynski,
he says, the truth is and then the course of
the Murray study, there was one and only one unpleasant experience.
It lasted about half an hour, and I could not
have been described as torture, even in the loosest sense
of the word. Mostly the Murray Study consisted of interviews

(28:11):
and the filling out of pencil and paper personality tests.
The CIA was not involved. Uh, since people may find
it difficult to believe that the media would broadcast such
a conglomeration of outright lies, I'm sending you here with
a copy of an article by FBI agent Greg Stag
Scal in which Scal claims, for give me if I'm
mispronouncing that name, that Jay might be silent, that the

(28:32):
greater part of the Discovery series is fiction. Stas Kell's
purpose is to defend the honor of the FBI, not
to tell the truth about Ted Kazinski. In fact, not
all of his statements about me are strictly accurate. That's interesting,
but the fact that Discovery lied about the FBI investigation
should make it easier for people to believe that they
lied about me too. And it would appear that that

(28:55):
claim is specific to uh, the Discovery documentary series. There's
this great article in The Atlantic from two thousand, uh
talking about this experiments and going into detail about them,
and and you know, kind of making the uh, the
thesis that these could have um poisoned Kazinski against science,

(29:19):
which is something that you know he would write about
in his manifesto, but nowhere in this Atlantic piece doesn't
mention anything. My m k ultra feel it seems like
that's very specifically uh, something that this Discovery documentary seems
to have gotten wrong, at least according to you know,
Kazynski himself and someone you know with experience on the
matter from within the bureau. So what do you guys

(29:41):
think there was something that you've heard of before the
physical first? For me, Yeah, yeah, I've heard this pretty
often over the years. There's actually there's a podcast by
friend of the show Little Brilliante called Prodigy, which dives
into a deep and really well done exploration of Kaczynski's

(30:02):
formative years because he was very young when he went
to Harvard. At the time of the Murray experiments, he
was only about seventeen years old. Uh. These were humiliation experiments.
I think I know where the conflation begins to at
least on the Discovery documentaries part. So the Murray experiments
are named after Henry Murray. Uh, and part of these experiments,

(30:26):
at very high level, were to quote evaluate and officers
candidacy for positions in the U. S. Military. The reason
people are maybe, uh maybe stringing some red string conspiracy
yarn between the MK Ultra CIA experiments and the Murray

(30:50):
experiments is that Murray himself worked for the OSS, the
Office of Strategic Services during World War Two, which a
lot of US will recognize as the predecessor of the
CIA here in the US. So maybe from that point,
I can see how it might be easy to confuse

(31:11):
the two. But the OSS is not the CIA, and
the fact that Murray worked for, uh, the OSS during
World War two does not necessarily mean, uh that that
narrative of the CIA financing this is correct, But there
is a there is a tantalizing thing here. There's another

(31:33):
podcast our network since I'm doing plugs. There's another podcast
our network called The Control Group, which is a dramatization
of um of the way some of these experiments occurred.
People who are conducting things related to im K ultra, academics, professors, researchers,
and so on may not have necessarily known where the

(31:54):
money was coming from, and they have been coming through
front groups. So it's also possible that there could have
been something that was later discovered to be part of
the overall genre of this kind of unethical experimentation. Uh,
and that it occurred without the knowledge of not just
the participants but the experimenters themselves. So but but you're right, well,

(32:17):
it's it is a very important uh distinction. So Kazynski
was in those uh Murray experiments which subjected people to
a lot of psychological stress. Uh. And again that's during
a formative year. But that's not the same thing as
sort of the c I a Monty Burn style ringing
its hands and saying build. But like this, UM, I mean,

(32:44):
I think it's I think it's an important distinction. It's
it's also I mean, what do you think it's It
feels to me that it is a pretty valid and
plausible argument to make that this this experience impacted someone
who already had a vulnar horble minds, But did it
cause them to perpetrate the acts that became the UNI Bomber.

(33:06):
I don't know, Yeah, I think so. I think so.
I mean, let's let's let's let's say it was MK
ultra and uh, you know, and this was specifically being
dosed with LSD. I mean, I think something that we
we've seen. Anyone that's been around people that have you know,
experimented with psychedelics know that, you know, it brings out

(33:26):
stuff that's already kind of there. You know. It's the
same way like people that are drunk kind of you know,
just and they become like a more um extroverted version
of themselves. You know, are they like you know, go
a little further maybe with their thoughts or they they
take things a little further. But it's not like just
putting things in. It's not implanting you with ideas. The

(33:47):
ideas are already there. It just kind of like helps
bring them out a little more. So that's true of
of LSD and and a lot of drugs, stimulants or
what have you. So to me, the idea of like,
you know, we made me do it or I'll jealous,
d made me do it. That don't buy that because
to me, it's like it's something that's already latent within
you and that it can kind of just like bring out.

(34:08):
But I don't really buy into the idea that it
can create a monster. Um, but this is we're plugging things,
I'll say my heart. Uh there, I heard Original Slate
is coming out with a show at the end of
this month, I believe called Operation Midnight Climax. That's sort
of it's a nonfiction dramatization, I guess of the MK
culture experiments, specifically through the eyes and the lens of

(34:30):
this character George White, and I had the uh, the
pleasure of being able to narrate the thing. I've never
really done that before. So that should be hitting your
feeds soon. And it's very well written, a really great
team behind that. So also beautifully sound designed by our
buddy Julian in New York. And uh yeah, check that
out if you if you want to hear a little
more of like kind of a inside you know, the

(34:51):
mind of someone that's actually doing the stuff and dosing
unsuspected people. With these drugs just to you know, see
what happens. I love that cup, Ben, Thank you all right?
Uh yeah, dude, definitely listen to that show. It's gonna
be awesome. I can't wait to hear UM. Another thing
to bring up here. I don't I really didn't know

(35:15):
much about MK Ultra connected to Kazynski, but I am
fascinated with his timeline and his trajectory. And as you
guys have been talking about his some of his thoughts
and his manifesto, it's I mean, it's stuff that's worth
reading in some messed up way. Some of some of
the thoughts are very fascinating. Just as our our caller

(35:36):
Chris mentioned um the timeline with him also in the
late sixties there when he moves out to Berkeley after
he gets his degrees, you know, from from Harvard and
then Believe University of Michigan. He's out there in like
sixties seven, I think, and that's around the time when
officially the known Zodiac killings we're happening. Just put it

(36:00):
out there. Maybe there's even more to Kazinski than just
MK Ultra. Why not. There's a there's a series of
three books that you can read from an author we
met named Mark Hewitt. Mark Hewitt, that are all about
how Kazinski is the zodiac. Well, that's the thing where

(36:20):
you don't have I mean, as you know, Matt, from
some of your previous excellent work. That's the thing when
you when you don't have a lot of emergent evidence,
you're you're kind of the speculation thrives, right, and we
tend to look at concurrent events and see whether the
ostensibly unrelated may give us a new perspective on on

(36:43):
the the problem we are solving. So it doesn't seem
like his style though, right, which is the primary argument
against it, well, or that one of the arguments Market
puts forward is that it evolved so in sixties Evan
again according to Mark, when he's in Berkeley as a

(37:03):
professor there right, which is right near uh Venetia and Valleo,
where the confirmed killings occurred in South San Francisco, is
just across a bridge he uh Allegedly, according to this author,
those killings were like he's beginning, he's warming up, essentially,
and then when things got too hot, he escaped to God.

(37:26):
I want to say Montana. I think it's Montana, Right,
is that isn't that where he ended up. That's where
he built a cabin um. He goes to Montana because
thesa get too hot in San Francisco in that area
for the zodiac and begins another version of a death campaign,
basically one I would want to hear from the listeners.
What do you think, folks? Yeah, well, I'd love to

(37:47):
know what you think. He's clearly a brilliant person, right.
You can't You can't go to Harvard to get a degree,
then go to the University of Michigan and get a
master's and doctorate in math and not be able to
put the is together very very well. There could be
some screwslous though, Yeah, no question about it. H Well,
I think it's time to take a quick pause for
another sponsor break and then come right back with some

(38:10):
more listener mail, And we are back for the final
installment of this week's listener Mail segment. This is maybe
not appropriate for everybody in the audience to date. It uh.

(38:31):
It details allegations of corruption in ongoing crime in Canada,
the kind of stuff that we have covered in previous
episodes on the Lost Highway. Previous episodes on things like
Unapprehended serial Killers, which unfortunately ended up being a three

(38:52):
part series. Uh So, without further ado, I'd like to
share this with you folks and then with my co
host and see what what everybody thinks here, because I've
been digging in and I'll be honest at this point.
Uh the situation seems disturbing. Hi, you can call me Violet.

(39:14):
I give permission to use my voice. I live in Vancouver, BC, Canada,
and we have a huge conspiracy regarding serial killers. The
first serial killer you should look into is Robert Pickton.
He owned a pig farm where he fed his victims
to his pigs, and then meet he sold in the
nineties may have contained human flesh. Currently, there's a ninety

(39:34):
plus page document that has been released with all of
the details, and it's currently trying to be suppressed by
the vp B and the r c MP. There's a
huge suspicion on the r c MP and VPD for
their involvement and they are presently attempting to destroy evidence
that they had any involvement in it. Talking out about
this has resulted in many people getting death threats, including

(39:56):
myself and other outspoken women. This is related to the
current situation where the police all over BC are ignoring
attempted kidnappings of women and children, and then a woman
from that city usually goes missing. They are all around
the same age, height and weight. They're mostly all white.
We have had a problem. You do currently still have

(40:18):
a problem NBC with missing and murdered murdered Indigenous women.
And now women are standing up and demanding the RCMP
take us seriously. They are ignoring us. They are dismissing
every single one of our claims. Women are being driven
off the road, women are being attempted to be snatched

(40:38):
from their vehicles. They the RCMP are refusing to help us.
Someone used to speak out and help the women of BC.
If you look into this, into the statistics of serial
killers in Canada, you will find none because Canada refuses
to release those documents. The RCMP already know that the

(41:02):
trucking routes in and out of BC are highly, highly
susceptible areas for kidnappings, and they still refused to do
anything about it. The r c MP are involved, The
r CMP are involved and or are protecting the people involved,
and this is frightening for all of us. There was

(41:25):
a child that was almost snatched on his way to
school two days ago on March second or third. This
is seriously, no serious. No one is taking us seriously.
No one is listening to us. We need your help.
Please please please talk about this on your show, because

(41:46):
we need more people to bring attention to this. We
need people to speak up for us because no one
is taking women seriously. Thank you very much for taking
the time to reach out to us, Violet. This is
this is profoundly disturbing. I mean, even if, even if

(42:07):
some of the incidents that violent mentions here turn out
to be things that are more easily explained, just the
experience of being a person in a community suffering from
this is um psychologically debilitating. So what I would like
to do is uh file, I'd like to walk through

(42:29):
some things that doubtlessly you are already well aware of,
but your fellow audience members may not be. First, I
want to verify that claim about serial killer collection data
in Canada. It is much more difficult to come by
than the serial murderer data in the US. So difficult

(42:54):
to come by that often when experts are looking into
statistics or attempting to build metrics for these kinds of
crimes in Canada. They use the US as a reference
in US. The US and Canada are similar in many ways,
but I would argue they're not similar enough for that

(43:16):
to be the basis of research on on Canada. That's
that's what I believe, and I think a lot of
people would agree here. So it is also true that
Indigenous women and girls, children are disproportionately targeted, not just
by what you'll call a serial killer, but also by

(43:38):
people who commit sexual assault, also by people who want
to waylay someone in an isolated area, maybe steal from them, uh,
mug them, rob them, et cetera. And we know that
there's there's a little better research oddly enough, well not
oddly enough, more towards the West coast because of the

(44:02):
Highway of Tears. We did an episode of that. That's
that stretch of Highway sixteen in northern BC where an
estimated the estimate alone is troubling, and estimated eighteen to
fifty mostly Indigenous women have gone missing or been found murdered.
Why is that troubling Because there's a hell of a

(44:23):
margin between eighteen and fifty, right, these are human lives. Uh.
And that also means that we're only seeing the ones
that were reported as of twenty nineteen. If you are
a listener in the US, then you don't live near
the Canadian border. You might be surprised to learn the
extent of the controversy here, because this has been an

(44:47):
ongoing argument. UH. Women's advocates such as Angela Marie McDougall,
executive director Battered Women's Support Services, is saying that the CMP,
the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, by the way, um the
ones with the horses. She and others are arguing that

(45:08):
the RCMP is attempting to suppress the truth, suppressed eyewitness reports,
possibly as you said, Violet, also destroy evidence. McDougal specifically
points to the larger issue here, which is ongoing sexual
violence in that community, and she says, you know, validly,

(45:31):
I would argue that it's completely reasonable for people who
might be a victim of these crimes in the future
to not completely trust the system, to also have fear
that one day they may become one of those victims
they are currently fighting for now. UH. The police, McDougal says,

(45:52):
are investigating that, but they There's also this question of
whether whether social media is playing a role in this.
Like people like their videos, you can find they're being
shared on social media platforms Instagram, TikTok, all the hits
where people are noting not only is the rc MP

(46:14):
in their in their perspective, being dismissive of the original
claims on social media, but in addition to not investigating
these claims, they are also asking people to stop spreading
the videos. And you can imagine if you are someone
who fits the demographical possible victim here, that that sounds

(46:38):
very much like being ignored, right, very much like being
brushed aside and being that one person in the horror
movie who says there's a monster and then someone else
says it's only the wind. Uh. Horror movies are a perfect,
a perfect analogy for these kinds of situations when they're factual,
and also for situations ongoing abuse in relationships. Uh. And

(47:04):
I don't just mean romantic ones. Uh. The The thing though,
for the rcmpace part to catch people up here is uh.
Back in February, just last month, as we record this,
police came forward and said they reiterated, you need to
stop spreading these videos about missing women and alleged abduction

(47:25):
attempts because they are unproven rumors U, and these videos
do run the gamut if you see them, which you can,
you can find these uh to say that there might
be a serial killer of foot, that there might be
human trafficking occurring, and that uh, the authorities are either
well then again, it's not what we're saying, but this

(47:47):
is the argument and supportant to know. They're saying the
authorities are either incompetent, they're either dismissive, or they are
willfully in some way covering up. And if they're willfully
in some way covering it up, it means they might
be colluding and then also violently. You noted um possibilities
of retaliation, right, uh, which which I heard in their UM.

(48:11):
I'd like to just read a statement from a spokesperson
for the RCMP, one Michael mclahan, who said, quote, we
have an open mind, but so far there is no
evidence to support that any abduction attempt has actually happened.
If we see any real risk, we will let the
public know. In the meantime, we're asking you to stop

(48:31):
spreading unproven rumors. Uh these videos. By the way, the
frequency of these videos increased amid some high profile disappearances.
One Trina Hunt in Port Moody, forty eight years old,
vanished January. One Shaleene keeler Bell who was twenty three

(48:54):
year old, a mother who vanished January. So, with Mclawhan
and others in the r c MP, the danger here
is that they feel like there may be a public
panic spreading based on unfounded speculations and fear like people
drawing another line between situations that might be unrelated and

(49:18):
saying it's all part of a larger thing. Uh. And
then the RCMP specifically says they're they're worried that people
are encouraging one another to carry weapons on their person
as a result. Um. But but with this, with this
in mind, we we felt that this would be an
important thing to bring attention to because no matter what's

(49:41):
happening right now, unfortunately there is proven, there has proven
precedent of systemic um a systemic failure on the part
of some authorities to acknowledge these situations. In these trends.
We did discuss Robert picked in in the past. You
guys remember that, sure Robert Pickton man these uh pretty

(50:03):
brutal or he was very brutal. And the problem with that,
correct me if you've already mentioned this, Ben. But the
problem with that is that rumors were spreading about some
serial killer operating and I think it was mid to
late nineties maybe that there was a serial killer operating,
and then he didn't get picked up until decade or

(50:24):
so later. Um. And again it's it's that concept if
if only The concept is if only the police or
the RCMP or whoever would have listened to the people,
you know, saying and raising their hand and saying, hey,
there's something wrong here, something is going on. That's that's
the concept. The problem is with with police, you cannot
take action unless you've got some kind of evidence or

(50:48):
or connective tissue two crimes, right, I mean, you cannot
do it. You know. An't mean to speak for the officers.
There is in like the other they're doing the right
thing and warning people not to spread these kinds of videos.
But it is it's a tough thing. Like we talked
about in the show all the time. How do you
know your source if you've got somebody on TikTok telling you, yeah,

(51:09):
there are five disappearances that have just occurred, and maybe
you don't get all the info and it's very emotionally charged.
Maybe it's difficult to ascertain what is true and what
is being added to it, right like in that great
game of telephone that everyone has every time another story
is shared, Um, it's it's I would just say it's
difficult for police and you know who knows what's going

(51:31):
on there. I have no idea, um, but I just
would say it's in this tough place where I can't
imagine the police acting on social media videos and statements
like that unless you know people are reaching out directly
to the RCMP to make statements that could then be
acted upon, which is what they've asked people to do. Uh.

(51:55):
They have said, you know, please stop circulating videos if
if there's the proof of this. Uh, if you do
believe that you have been the victim of an adduction attempt,
or you believe you have witnessed one, please they're saying,
contact the RCMP directly, which is of course, you know,
that's that's what the normal process should be. The argument

(52:20):
on the other side, I would imagine is there will
be people saying I had to resort to the public
sphere because I did what I was supposed to do.
I tried to report, and I was ignored or people
are fearful as a as our caller stated that perhaps
there's a connection there between whoever's making the disappearances and

(52:43):
some some officer or officers. So I I understand that
while I may believe that's unlikely or hopefully at least unlikely,
and would encourage people to to continue attempting to reach
the authorities like that, um, it is that must be
a very scary situation. Yeah, exactly. And this compounded by

(53:03):
statements from experts. There's a researcher I want to draw
attention to named Michael arn't Field, who was a criminologist
and serial killer researcher at Western University. He studies patterns
of homicide for something known as the Murder Accountability Project
here in the US, and he um he's one of

(53:23):
the people that I leaned into when I was looking
at the problem of getting correct and accurate data from
from Canadian authorities. And he says, first off, he says
that from the West coast to what's called the Golden
Horseshoes surrounding Toronto, there's evidence to suggest that not one,

(53:45):
but multiple serial murderers are hunting and and targeting UH,
Indigenous women and children, and a couple of the things
he says in an interview that he had just a
little less than two years ago in twenty nineteen. He says,
we don't know for sure in Canada because no one
will give us the data, but for sure you would

(54:07):
see Edmonton up to Fort McMurray light up with indications
of homicides. That's already well established. And they also guesses
you would see a higher instance from Manitoba to northern
Ontario and down to the Golden Horseshoe Greater Toronto area
as well. And he says that one of the issues

(54:27):
is that murdered data in Canada is owned by something
called stats can all one word s T A T
S C A N and that this group decides rather
than experts who gets to know what, and says that
they control the narrative therefore on homicide. And you know,

(54:49):
you learned disturbing things with this, like the FBI's Highway
serial Killer initiative, which we had discussed UH in its
in its own episode in the past, really put the
spot on the opportunity that people in the trucking industry
might have. And I'm not saying truckers specifically. I'm saying
in the industry living along those interstate routes. Uh, there

(55:12):
there's a troubling number of unexplained disappearances and deaths. So
the question is, is is there something we can learn
from there, from from that research that could be applied
up north. Uh. The answer is yes, there's a lot
we could learn. But it would be our chances of

(55:33):
saving lives would be much higher if we had access
to the data from that country, you know, And and
it's a it's it's a dangerous thing, and it's you know,
it's very easy to sit here on this show and say, well,
just give the numbers to the people, give the numbers
to the experts, give transparency. Um, there may be intervening

(55:56):
variables or reasons that we're not aware of that prevent
or just incentivized stats can from doing this. But then again,
can you really blame people for going to social media
if they're acting in good faith? Can you blame these
people for trying to get the word out about something

(56:16):
that they think authorities are ignoring. I don't know if
you can. I don't know if you should. I'll say it, Ben,
I'm speaking directly to you people who control the stats
of crime in Canada, get that stuff over to the
Murder Accountability Project. The folks over there, like you said,
Michael and h. Thomas Hargrove, all of the guys, they're like,

(56:40):
just give it to him. Let's see, let's see what happens.
They've been able to identify clusters like serial killer clusters
in other places in the world, and I think it
would be good to do that. There's another issue here.
You know, we know methodology is um. Methodology is kind
of the silent melody that at us things right. And

(57:02):
this means, even though it's a poetic phrase, yeah, uh,
shout out to my old literature teachers. Even though it's
a poetic phrase, it describes a really important, possibly dangerous thing,
which is it's not just what's reported, it's how it's reported,
how it's how it's aggregated, and how it's categorized. So
consider this. This is a disturbing thing to leave with

(57:25):
to tell you that there there really is a great
possibility that there is something amiss. Stats can has disclosed
that the homicide rate for Indigenous women in Canada is
six times higher than the homicide rate for non Indigenous women, however, aren't.

(57:45):
Filled points out that too often Indigenous women are not
properly listed as murder victims. Instead, their deaths are characterized
as accidental death or suicide, or something known as death
by misadventure. You guys heard of that one. Oh yeah,
that's the one where you do something stupid, right, and

(58:06):
you're playing playing on the train tracks or something. It
could possibly describe things like drug overduces, for instance, or
maybe someone uh becomes inebriated and wanders out into the
elements and dies with exposure, things like that. It's it's
considered a somewhat anachronistic term. I would imagine that. I

(58:27):
think death by misadventure is a little victim blame me.
It's a little victim blame me. Uh yeah, I'll just
call it what it is now, misadvent. Yeah that's true.
But I mean that is not the point. Isn't it
meant to like imply that you were doing something, like
I said, kind of kind of not the smartest thing
in the world. Yeah, that's that's true. The real difference,

(58:47):
like what would be the difference between an accidental death
and death by misadventure. There's this strong implication that this
was something the victim knew was risky and its behavior
or activity that they engaged in despite being aware of
that risk, which I don't. That's not a phrase that
I am personally comfortable with ascribing to someone. You know. Um,

(59:11):
you know what made me uncomfortable? Ben rewatching the implication
clip from Always Sunny after we made that reference, Oh
my god, m And it's important. I think one thing
the writers of that show do so well is um
is depicting how often members of the general public just

(59:33):
accept that sort of behavior that's sort of you know
implication part where Max says, hang on, are you talking
about hurting these people? You know? Um? So this is
something that doesn't have an easy answer yet in my opinion,
and this is just my opinion. The first next step
is to release that data. And and if it can't,

(59:57):
if if there's a concern that it would be imaging
to an ongoing investigation to release that data publicly, just
a general uh John and Jane Blue Jeans of the Internet,
then fine, do do like my pal Matt said and
send it to expert researchers, right, send it, Send it

(01:00:19):
out in such a way that it can be used
and that it can be used in a preventative or
predictive manner. Um. You know, there are far fewer serial
killers quote unquote out there in the world than perhaps
true crime documentaries would have us believe. But the fact

(01:00:40):
of the matter is they are real, you know what
I mean, It's not just the wind. And if even one,
if even one killer could be brought down, if one
life could be saved, then it's you know, uh not
not to quote Emily Dickinson, but it is worth it.
At that point, wouldn't you say, like, what price could
you put on that investigation? Right? The success of that?

(01:01:04):
I Uh, I am having a hard time squaring or
understanding why this data isn't being collected, why it isn't
being disseminated more widely, um, and perhaps you know, perhaps
that is due to concerns that releasing this to the
public might mean that a murderer is able to see

(01:01:25):
it too and then adapt their behavior accordingly. But then,
you know, one thing that we never hesitate to point
out we're talking about serial murders is that they are
going to tend to be below average intelligence. They are
not clever people, uh most often and this I know

(01:01:46):
this contradicts the Hannibal lecter Kemper kind of things. But
the reason those characters in fiction or fact are considered
somewhat remarkable is because they are bucking a trend. Like
these people are not. They're not clever, they're not special,
They're just monsters. These criminals, if they exist, can be

(01:02:08):
found with traditional investigation methods and using the information that
stat can appears to possess in some regard, So we're
hoping that more data is released. Um, you know, I understand.
I think we can all understand the importance of spreading

(01:02:30):
word when you feel like conventional channels aren't working. But
then you can also understand maybe the position of law
enforcement when they say we shouldn't or people shouldn't be
propagating these videos. But the best way to stop those
videos from being propagated is to um have dialogue with
the public and to let people know that you are

(01:02:52):
investigating these things, and maybe to ask yourself as an organization,
why do people feel like you're not where's the disconnect?
And it's a great point. Well it's the point where
our show ends today. We want to hear from you.
Thank you so much to everybody who wrote who called in.
We want to know your take, M k Ultra c

(01:03:15):
i A. How closely related were they to the creation
of Ted Kaczynski's mental state? Let us know. We want
to know your experiences with organized crime and boxing or
sports in general. If you live in Dubai, tell us
if you uh, tell us if you know any high
class crime lords, just in advance before we decide whether

(01:03:38):
or not we're going to do a tour there. Uh.
And then of course, if you live in Canada, either
on the law enforcement side or if you live in
the area the violence talking about, please let us know
your take. Would love to hear from you. We try
to make it easy to find us on the internet.
That's right. You can find us on the usual social
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(01:04:01):
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(01:04:24):
are using your thumb on and use your mouth on it. Sorry,
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t K. Leave a message after you hear Ben's voice
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What's the where's is the is the pizza guy here?
I don't understand and debunk that one. It will been

(01:04:48):
along with a visual on the on the video and
then just stayed in. The pizza guy always delivered the
stuff they don't want you to know. I think that
was the trope. I'm not sure. Yeah, when you do call,
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(01:05:10):
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(01:05:33):
is conspiracy at i heeart radio dot com. Stuff they

(01:05:55):
Don't want you to know is a production of I
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