April 29, 2022 • 57 mins
In the days before and during World War II, German tycoons make billions off the horrors of the Third Reich -- and largely got away with profiting from those atrocities. In today's interview, Ben and Matt are joined with special guest, author and journalist David de Jong, who spent years researching the disturbing, hidden story of business dynasties that actively collaborated with Nazi powers and continue to profit from that relationship today.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
My name is Matt. Our colleague Nola is on an adventure,
but will be returning shortly. They called me Ben. We
are joined as always with our super producer Paul. Mission
Control deconds. Most importantly, you are you, You are here,
and that makes this the stuff they don't want you
to know. We are quite excited about today's episode. You know,
(00:47):
it's um it's reminding me, Matt. It's often said that
there is a great crime at the heart of every
great fortune. And it's also often said that two sorts
of laws exist who sets of laws, One for the
very very wealthy, one for everyone else, all the other schmucks.
But in today's episode, we're diving deep into a story
(01:09):
that doesn't often get told until now. You know, if
you're a longtime listener to the show, you know about
things like Project paper Clip, the secret program Uncle Sam
used to bring Nazi regime scientists to the US. But
that's only part of a much, much larger story. What
about the other secrets, What about particularly all those business
(01:29):
leaders in Germany, the individuals, the families, the dynasties who
made fortunes off the atrocities of the Third Reich, And
what about their heirs? What about the folks who inherited
these fortunes. This is the question our guest journalist and
author David DeJong explores in his newest book, Nazi Billionaires,
The Dark History of Germany's Wealthiest Dynasties. David, thank you
(01:53):
so much for joining us today. Thank you, gentlemen for
having me. It's a pleasure. We're very excited to be
speaking with you. Uh, we've read through much of your book. Then,
I believed you've read the entire thing, U and we've
we've watched interviews, we've talked about Nazis since we were
making videos back in two thousand ten. That it's just,
(02:13):
you know, when you make videos about the unknown and
mysteries and strange things. The Third Reich has plenty of
material to go into, but we we have never explored
the fortunes that were built off of things that occurred
during the Third Reich's reign. So we can't thank you know,
for doing the research for writing this book. Uh, I think,
what Ben, let's just let's talk about, like, David, how
(02:35):
did you get into this? How did you begin this
investigation and journey. I started looking into these families at
when while I was still at Bloomberg News, I was
working as a reporter in New York. I was actually
hired in late eleven on his new team, which investigated
hidden wealth and billionaire fortunes, and the team it started
(02:56):
right around when Occupy Wall Street ended, So there was
this really you know, it's basically the start of this
of this narrative of the one percent versus I mean,
since then it's really become the zero point one percent
versus pot nine percent. And I was hired as one
of the of the reporters to cover the America's but
(03:18):
I was soon asked after a couple of months too
to cover the German speaking countries because I am Dutch.
I'm a native Dutchman, and I you know, I tell
a little bit about in the book about how I
had this sort of reluctance to cover German fortunes or
(03:39):
German or German business in general. You know, I'm probably
I was born in the late eighties, probably the last
of the generation which grew up with this kind of
I call it in the book playful antagonism that I
had visa feed Germany, the Germans, you know, because of
the brutal occupation that that that happened, you know in
the Netherlands between May and May, which also affected my family. Uh.
(04:06):
My grandfather was you know, he tried to sail to
England with his best friend, was very avid sailor um
and to join the Royal Air Force. In one and
the second time his boat was blown back to shore.
They were arrested by German soldiers and they were sentenced
as political prisoners to two year forest labor in the
(04:28):
rural area in Germany just over the border. And you know,
my grandfather was six six ft seven. He came out
weighing ninety pounds and luckily, you know, he survived. He
come valesced in the sanatorium in Switzerland and got married
to my grandmother, and my mother soon was born after.
And then as for my my father's parents were Jewish,
(04:49):
and as were my great grandparents and my grandfather he
had an amster them for three and a half years
after his textile factories that the Dutch German border work
were seized, and my grandmother was you know, she was Swiss.
She was Swiss, and she fled with my my aunt
was three at the time and a companion to the
(05:09):
French Swiss border, and they were arrested by the Gestapo,
by by the shop bishop or the Nazi Germany secret police,
and miraculously a Gestapo officer to pity on them and
let them and to pity on my aunt and my
grandmother and let them off, and then they fled over
the mountains into Switzerland and into safety. But her companion
(05:30):
was deported to too Soviet boy and was murdered. So
it was you know, it's a miracle that I am
here today. And I was very much especially by my
maternal grandfather. He lived and described in a book. I mean,
he lived in a very small village in the south
of the Netherlands where all the Germans would always go
every summer to to to to go to on beach
holidays um nearby, and you know, then he would always
(05:50):
quit um you know, another invasion incoming. And he he
kind of raised me always that he was kind of
my hero. My maternal funding income raised this idea, you know,
don't don't take the Germans too seriously, because they take
themselves too seriously. But I came, actually came to take
them very seriously, particularly you know, when I was asked
(06:12):
to cover big business and finance in Germany, because you
know what I what I quickly found is that particularly
large brands like BMW and Porsche, they maintain these global
foundations in the name of their founders or their or
their saviors or the patriarchs, and they celebrate these men's
(06:33):
business successes, but they do not mention anywhere that they're
conducting philanthropy global philanthropy in the name of men who
committed war crimes, are men who were members of the
s S. And that is actually the reason why I
wrote a book, not because of my personal relation to
the story or because of my personal background. No, it's
(06:56):
because I was just stunned by after so called reckoning
as they as they see it occurred that they're still
doing the they're they're still maintaining these you know, doing
these fib You know, not only it's not only foundations,
it's global head corps, corporate headquarters, it's it's journalism prizes
in the name of these men without being transparent about
(07:19):
about the bad things they've done on these other writing
a business success, and I think that is that is,
you know, leaving out that history is unacceptable to me. Yeah,
it's deeply unethical, to say the least. And that's something
that really stuck with us when we were diving into
the stories here, because you know, I do have to
admit there's a bit of dark humor with Bloomberg saying Okay, yeah,
(07:42):
go go cover this, and you having to say, do
you have any idea, well, what you're asking me to do?
And I could sense that, I could sense that reticence,
but it did it did pay off in a way
that many, especially many Americans, are not aware of. You know,
many people in the US know of some business stories
(08:07):
from that time in Nazi Germany, you know, like Coca
Cola inventing Fanta, or ib MS disturbingly cozy relationship with
the Third Reich. Yeah, and the list goes on. But
people here often think of those relationships as singular, isolated
moments in business history, isolated from the current day. And
(08:32):
I want to know if that is an attitude or
a perspective that you have encountered in Europe in the US,
or maybe even in Germany itself. Is there an active,
coordinated effort in some cases to sanitize history for lack
of a better term, I mean, here's this kind of
tried and true mefort, at least in Germany, where you
(08:53):
know a media scout, you know, it's like clockwork. Every
year some media scot has kind no breaks about a
famous German business dynasty with global business interests for the
most part, and you know, some investigative reporter in Germany
digs up there they're hidden activities of Patriarch X, you know,
(09:14):
who was a committed Nazi party member who use mass
force and slave labor, who mass produced weapons, who you know,
acquired companies stolen from Jews or acquired shares far below
market value because people were desperate to leave to flee
Jewish people were desperate to flee Nazi Germany, or expropriated
(09:35):
companies of people who were in a livelhood of people
who were living in occupied territories. So what then happens
are to the responses? Then, Okay, we're going to commission
an academic study. It's going to be an independent academic study.
You know, we're we're we've we've we've asked a prominent
German history professor to to to do this. Him his
(09:56):
team as researchers will conduct this and and you know,
three or four years later, you know, we will open
our archives as well for the first time and three
four years lead and then it's silent, you know, and
then three or four years later study the studies published
X gives one Maya kupa interview um and and about
(10:17):
what happens then with the reckoning. I mean, you have
a very dense academic study in German that does not
reach a wider audience. It remains the story itself, remains
contained to Germany. And you know, barely any translations, you know,
bar few exceptions, you have very few translations of these
studies ever ever produced. And the question that I also
(10:41):
have in like a large pictures, who exactly is this
reckoning dis reported? Reckoning with right? Because you know, for
the most part, the Germans were not see the victims
of Germany's own crimes. It were millions and millions of
others living in Europe. You know, we're forced into forced
or or slave labor um, particularly in Eastern Europe, you know, Poland, Ukraine, Russia,
(11:07):
Belarus party taking in some part as well in in
the Holocaust too, you know, or or having led concentration
camps and in etcetera, or having built them who then
is directing with because it never reaches the surviving former
force or slave labors or their heirs. Right, they don't
read academic German. So then companies like BMW and Porsche
(11:31):
can can go on and pretending like nothing has happened.
And it is also the sense is that they lean
on Germany's collective guilt, right we were all I mean,
you know, you also to imagine that Germany still, you know,
every time one of these business families or one of
these massive global companies comes out with a study. I mean,
they get inundated with this stuff. You know, you get
(11:51):
so in Germany, learning about the third right era is
is it's you know, and being confronted with it is omnipresent, right,
so it is you know it point Unfortunately, you become
I mean I imagined they become desensitized to it, so
in a way that you're able to contain these narratives
to Germany. And yeah, I'm bringing to a global audience
(12:11):
down for the first time when we're glad you're doing that. Uh,
you just hit on something that I just want to
talk a little bit further about. You kind of you
outlined it pretty quickly there, but this is two parts.
So first, are there any car manufacturers that don't have
a background relationship with the Third Reich? I was just
looking through the list in the book and yeah, goodness,
(12:35):
yeah no, yeah, but that's kind of a joke question.
I'm sorry, but but you just name so many major
car manufacturers that are still big players today that did
have a background. Let's dive a little deeper into what
exactly companies like BMW we're doing during the reign of
the third Third Reich to to gain profits and um
(12:55):
to make those fortunes that we're talking about. The main
family I'm writing about qua who came to control BMW
after World War Two. So the patriarch Gunther Quanta and
his son Herbert. They they controlled guns, mainly controlled and
and operated a massive battery manufacturer and a massive arms manufacturer.
(13:19):
And quickly after Hitler sees his power, he starts in
secret this massive rearmament push and you know all the
industrialists who by the way, and it is also one
of the maps and charge of the spell in the book.
You know, most of the families I'm writing about, we're
already extremely wealthy when Hitler sees power, except for the
(13:40):
poor Shapire family who today controls the Volkswagen group, which
has Art Porsche. Volkswagen says good to Bentley Lamborghini. So
around the largest garn manufacturers in the world. Their wealth
really started because of their relation with the Third Reich
and because Hitler put the Volkswagen in production, which for
non Porsche car design company also ended up taking off
(14:04):
in this era. And you know, all of them works
already extremely wealthy bar them. And after the big Weronman
push starts, billions and billions flow into the coverers of
of the industrialists that are producing that we are now
producing mass producing weapons. And then you have all these
decrees that come out that are issued which you know
(14:27):
incrementally takes the assets of Jewish people living in or
seizes the companies of Jewish people living in Germany. Of course,
once the war breaks out, you have that extended, you know,
to Nazi occupied territories as well as you know where
because German Men were being called to the front. This
(14:49):
mass rounding up of people all across of the men
and women all across and teenagers to all across Europe
who were then being shipped off or people ordered to
forcibly work in factories in all across Germany, as well
as slave labor from concentration camp, but from concentration camps
later on during the war. So these are really the
(15:12):
main components of how these families benefited from the Third Rock,
and benefit they did because as you as you established
in the recent New York Times article, which which is
also a fantastic overview of some of the problems here,
as you established you you open with some critical facts
(15:35):
about the scope and power of Germans modern automotive industry.
Right it is, it is huge. To call it a
leviathan is maybe a bit unfair even, but it's not
hyperboly the it's not. I think it's a pretty fair description. Yeah. Well,
the thing that gets me about this is, and I
think it gets Matt you as well, is that for
(15:57):
people in the US, there's quite a disturbing comparison to
be made between the deification of these titans of industry
and their families. And we've got to talk more about
those families in a second, But there's there's this clear
comparison to be had between the way that parts of
the US have deified um Confederate memorials right or officers
(16:23):
in the Confederate Army. And I'm wondering, in your opinion,
what how would the people of Germany react if there
was a movement to you know, take these Nazi sympathizers
names off of foundations or to you know, be more
(16:44):
transparent about their past. Would they would the German establishment
push against this? What would the reckoning be interesting? That's
a very interesting question. I think there would be the
German establishment, which is embarked art these families I'm writing about,
of course, and they are and they're handlers and and
and the entire culture around around them, of course don't
(17:05):
to too large extent do not do that right. They
leave their dark histories out on the websites of the
of the global foundation they control through you know, the
global brands such as BMW, nportion. But I think the
vast majority of Germans would be delighted if they know,
if they knew, if they're aware, would be delighted to
(17:26):
to you know, either see these companies being pushed to
be transparent about it online or or C d C,
T c C, these foundations or media prizes or corporate quarters,
um renamed. I mean what I write in the s
in the New York Times, I say, is what I
wrote in New York Times. I say as well, was
(17:46):
how you know I lived? I moved for this book.
I moved from from from New York to Berlin in
late And you know, there is such a awareness and
such a new ones and such a such a introspective
discussion going on in Germany about this past. And it
(18:10):
seems like the most powerful players in Germany do not
want to do not want to participate in that. And
that is of course very damaging because these families are
not only economically powerful, the quality BMW quants are also
the largest donors to to the Christian Conservative said Miracle
Angela Merkel's party, right um. And and you know there's
(18:34):
books people all were worked for cdo politicians. So it's
very much this is the total establishment I'm writing about.
And and they they clearly do not want to want
to engage in this on a global level. At least
I want to play Devil's advocate just for a moment.
For this I I spent quite a bit of time
on some of these foundations websites where You're right, they
(18:55):
don't talk about any of these things and the connections,
but they do all of them without exception. They have
these very lofty goals they've you know, they state things
about their missions that like I I love like this,
these are great things to try and do and and
to work towards and to pour money into. Um. I
(19:15):
I just it feels as though there's good work. And
specifically I'm looking right now at the BMW Herbert kunt Foundation,
uh and I just like what, um what is the goal?
What is the goal? I guess in in having foundation
like that like really come to terms with their past.
It's not the foundation, of course, it's it's it's accompany
(19:36):
itself and it's controlling shareholders. And it's quite perverse. In
the case of the BMW. Quantz who commissioned is academic
study two pousand seven after a critical TV documentary you know,
came out on Good jour and Herbert Quantz third rag
Past and arch activities and you know, four years day
(19:58):
to study is published. Stephan Quanto was one of, together
with his sisters, the controlling shareholder of BMW gives this
interview to decide Um, one of Germany's leading newspapers, and says,
you know, we're not going to rename our headquarters and
if you going to Quant, we're not going to rename
(20:20):
our media price. And after Herbert Quant, we're not going
to rename our foundation. But we will remember them in
you know, the with the good and the bad things.
But it becomes completely but it never says how they're
going to do that, right so in s so what
leads to this very perverse situation where in twenty sixteen
they they make the BMW foundation Herbert Quant global and
(20:44):
make it much larger, and Stefan Stefan Quand and Susanna Klatten,
the siblings you know, both give you know, tens of
millions of dollars to his foundation and then the motto
is inspire responsible leader ship. I mean, you can't make
this up in the name of a man who, yes,
(21:05):
he said BMW from bankruptcy in ninette, but who also
this man you know, who also built or a planned
built and and and dismantled a sub concentration camp in
Nazi occupied Poland early who had to responsibility over over
battery factories in Berlin, where you know, thousands of force
(21:29):
and slave laborers were used, including five hundred female slave
laborers from concentration camps who helped acquire companies in France
sees from Jews and we use at as private estate
prisoners of war and forced labor. And to inspire responsible
leadership is to be transparent about that history and not
to leave that up. You know, the BMW Foundation, I
(21:52):
asked them and they said, well, we are only concerned
with what what what Herbert Quant did during his ownership
of BMW between nine and his death in two Whereas
when the spokes the spokesperson for seven Quanta, Susanna Clatter,
(22:12):
when they suddenly replaced part of the biography on the
Herbert Quant Media Price, said oh, this year we decided
to to replace after ten this year we did, we
reviewed our web presence and we decided to go for
a more holistic biography of Herbert Quant, which now shows
that these And they did that a couple of months
(22:35):
after I asked you an ignored question about where they
considered the website of the Herbert Kuan Media Price a
journalism price, wherefore also of Germany's most high profile journalists
serve on if they consider that to be open and transparent.
Never got a response on that question. Three months later, overnight,
suddenly a new biography footnote that still leaves out a
(22:56):
lot of Herbert Quantz Nazi activities, but at least now
it's says that that he had to responsibility of these
brilliant battery factories. And then you have the spokesman saying,
after I con front of him with it, he said, oh,
we decided to go for a more holistic view of
Herbert que side, which you know, I mean, it's it's
it's truly beyond irony, unfortunately, and we were going to
(23:16):
take a quick commercial break, but we'll be right back,
and we've returned with David de Jon. I want to
set up a moment in the very beginning of the
book where in you right beautifully about this really disturbing,
(23:43):
weird meeting in February. I believe it is. Yes, yes,
so uh this you fulk. You'll have to check out
the book yourself to get the actual language here, but
there to paraphrase it or to summarize, around two dozen
of the absolute most powerful members of Germany's business community
(24:07):
meet at Herman Goring's house, and they're under the impression
that this new chancellor on the block, this Adolph Hitler guy,
is gonna just, you know, explain his policies to the group, right,
and uh, then there's a bunch of power plays that
happened at the very beginning. It quickly becomes a parent
(24:28):
that this is not the meeting these guys thought they
were going to. And it ties into a two part
question I have and I think we all have it. First,
what actually happened at the meeting? How did it shape
the events of the future? And then secondly, knowing how
that meeting went, is it a good faith argument for
(24:52):
these business leaders to have said they were forced to
participate or to collaborate with the regime, because you know
you have did also later in the work that that
was that was something a few people said, right like,
it wasn't my choice to do this, I was forced to. Yeah,
these are both really good questions. So as to your
(25:12):
first question, at the point of the meeting happens on
February ninety three, the Nazi Party is dead, broke, They're
twelve million Heist mark in debt, and I mean it's
like tens of millions in dollars today and they you know,
they summoned these businessmen under guise of of having Hitler
expence for economic policy, and they're basically being asked to
(25:35):
pony up to a election slush fund um to to
to finance the election campaign that in the run up
to March five. But by the time the election happens,
and a week after the meeting, the stock burns down
(25:57):
under the most mysterious of circumstances still hasn't cleared up exactly.
A show trial happens where a couple of members Communist
Party members put to trial and are executed, but it's
not clear still to this day who actually set the
ice stuck on fire. So you know, martial law is implemented,
(26:18):
and basically all the Communists and all Communists and social
Democrats in Germany are arrested. Um and and also during
that speech on February twenty February, Gurring and Hitlers say
the election of March three is going to be the
last election that's going to occur in Germany for the
(26:39):
past for the next ten years to a hundred years time.
So that ends up being about three million rice mark
ends up being paid by various companies and and and
and industrialists and financiers. But the election itself doesn't really
matter anymore because Hitler has already seized power, and and
(27:00):
and martial law has been declared. So did that money
really matter? Probably not that much, because the fire happened,
and and and and and law and the rule of
law is suspended best degree, but at least as Gobble
as Joseph Gobbles, the Nazi propaganda or the Nazi campaign
manager and propaganda leader brighton this diary the next day
(27:24):
after the meeting, saying, you know, the millions are here.
You know, we can put the presses back to work.
So at least for one to two weeks, they had
they they had money, they had cash on hand, and
they could run an election campaign. Wow, the rule of
law was suspended, what was being suspended? And and and
everything else happens, So that that's that's one. Now as
(27:45):
to your second question, did they have a choice in
the matter? Do you mean generally or at that meeting?
I mean I mean generally because I believe when we're
talking about facing possible consequences after the conclusion of World
War Two, there were a lot of people saying, you know,
over the course of this I was forced to do
(28:07):
these things. Yeah, um, yeah, they had a choice. I mean,
there's the example of Fritz Teason of you know, Tesson
Group now teasing Croup. Back then it was the Tecent
Steell conglomerate and the Croup still conglomerate. And you know,
Fritz Teason was one of Hitler's earliest backers and um
(28:28):
of the industrialist because the industrially staid in then in
the businessman for the business community first was like they
didn't want anything to do with Hitler. So only when
he started being electorally successful that there were in the
crash of October happens on Wall Street and the economy
is in a big grade propression starts that they're coming
around to this idea of you know, let's check out
(28:50):
this Hitler guy. And and Hitler himself and his and
his entourage had had no connection barely any connections to
two business people at that point in time. Talking leg
nineteen thirty early Fritz season, one of Hitler's earliest backers,
already starts backing him in the mid nineteen twenties. He
(29:10):
ends up he is a member of Parliament at the
eve of the of of Germany's invasion of Poland in September,
n ends up voting against the invasion and and fleeing Germany,
going to Paris, where he has an American journalist write
(29:30):
in this whitewash book called right a bright whitewash men
Mark called I paid Hitler and he's arrested, and Fritz
season is and ends up in a concentration camp. So
he you know, you're talking about part of Germany's most
powerful industrialists who just two turns against the regime and
(29:50):
has as a result, has his um has his still
conglomerate of course appropriated or put under trusteeship of of
somebody else. Actually the right hand man, one of the
main characters in my book. And um, you know you
so you had it, you know, if you you could
turn again. They had a choice, absolutely to had a choice.
Gunter Quant arguably the main character of my book, or
(30:14):
one of the main characters in my book. You know,
he writes in his wide Wash memoir that he that
he that he writes after the war ninety four seven,
when he's in detention, when he's in American detention, actually
in Germany. He writes how he could have left to
North America or South America, where his business partners were
(30:35):
during that era, but that he stayed put, you know,
as he puts it himself, to be a loyal soldier
to you know, to to to protect his his his
factories and his employees for for you know, to keep
them running basically, so he admits that, you know, he
frames himself as a as a you know, as a Nazi,
as an anti Nazi, and somebody who was a victim
(30:56):
of the regime, even though he was not one of
Nazi Germany's largest arms men of lecturers and one of the
the largest user of force and slave labor, and one
of the largest beneficiaries of stolen companies, both in Germany
and occupied territories. I want to I want to stay
in that realm Um. Many children are taught about the
(31:19):
Nuremberg Trials, and they're aware of those things and the
consequences of people who are directly involved in the war,
especially you know, on the military front. I personally, and
I think many of the many people out there don't
know what happened to these corporations and these private interests
post World War Two that are in Germany. Um, what
(31:40):
happened to a company like BMW after a war like that.
There were all these plans, you know, the initial planets
of Henry Morgantower was a Treasury secretary on the Roosevelt,
you know, proposed this famous plan initially, and I think
believe it was n which became known as the Morganto Plan.
And which is this which basically caused for this the
(32:03):
complete destruction and dismantling of all of German industry and
and the summarily execution of you know, not only of
military and political leaders, but also of of German industrialists.
Their plan ends up being scrapped, and instead there is
a focus on as they called it, the five d s,
(32:24):
which is which is in the in the pot Stem
Agreement of August, which style in Harry Truman and the
silent Harry Truman and Clement at least the successor to Roosevelt,
agree on. You know, the five ds are the natification,
which is a word you hear a lot nowadays, because
it's what Vladimir Putin uses to describe what he's doing
(32:47):
in Ukraine. Just obscene. The word of the the use
of I mean, what he's doing is horrific. But the
use of that word the nattification in that context, because
the natification was became a very flawed legal process that
saw millions of Germans basically go free for crimes that
(33:09):
committed under the Nazi during the Third Ride or simple
Nazi sympathies that they had. So the notification. There's decartilization,
which means it means the that the cartels, the big
industrial conglomerates were broken up. Deconcentration which was referred to
German industry being less concentrated, being less in the hands
(33:30):
of being less you know, too big to fail, less
in the hands of the very few. And the militarization,
which speaks for itself. But in the end, you know,
the de concentration and decarcialization, they happened with a company
like Ek Farban, which was the largest chemical company in
the world at the time. And you know you have
(33:52):
today you have Buyer and B A. S F. Which
is today Buyer is one of the large pharmaceutical companies
in the world and B A. S F is the
large chemical company in the world who both came out
of what Eka Farben was. And you know, there's Eka
Farmer for the reb but the rest all the German
(34:14):
company was basically or the German business basically remained intact.
There wasn't massive continuation of the power structures e can
both economic and politically, but mainly economically that remained in
place because, of course, very soon after World War Two happens,
the Cold War emerges, and it's in America's best or
(34:36):
deems that in its best interest to have a strong, industrialized,
democratic West Germany to you as used as a bulwark
against the encroaching Soviet Union, and for that it needed
a economically viable West Germany. So German business needed to
be protected, and German businessmen, um, you know, except for
(34:57):
the three industrialist trials at New rom Burg, we basically
let off scot free. I'm seeing so many parallels. It's
kind of what Ben was already talking about here, parallels
between what occurred then and then what we're seeing happen
right now. And you just hit on it just with
a simple word that's being thrown around right now as
a as a justification for actions being taken that appear
(35:19):
to be appear to be World War three, like let's say, um, well,
and it makes me think about the economic sanctions that
are placed like the weapon of war of choice from
you know, NATO and and much of the West is
economic and we're hitting in these places. We're hitting the
(35:40):
industry right as much as possible. UM. I'm just wondering
how you after doing all this research, looking at the
profit centers of the Third Reich, looking at these these
families that you know, you can kind of see it
mirrored in the oligarchs, Like what what what other mirrored
situations do you see happening right now? From what you've
(36:02):
learned in researching this, what you see happening now, of
course is the main parallel is what's happening with the
Russian oligarchs and their Devil's packed with with Vladimir Putin,
which was of course the Russian oligarchs for the most part,
took there, you know, grabbed the their initial assets in
(36:23):
this in the wild west of the Russia of the
under Boris Yeltsen, and then consolidated their power with you know,
with this devil's packed Imputin in the early two thousand's
and have been allowed to operate unfettered globally since and
(36:44):
are now having this moment of reckoning because of Russia's
invasion of Ukraine. And of course because of their because
they owe their which or they owe their maintenance of
their billion fortune and assets to their relationship with Putin.
That's the clearest example I can I can. You know,
it's the clear I mean, it is very very you know,
(37:07):
in a sense, it's very timely. But that's the you know,
it's it's the clearest example I can figure at the moment.
Let's pause for a moment. We'll have a word from
our sponsor, who is hopefully not Krispy Kreme, and we'll
be back with more from David Dejng. And we're back
(37:27):
with more from author David. One other thing that's interesting,
when we're looking at the human element of this um
you had already, I want to talk a little bit
about process this sort of a meta question. UM. You have,
as we established earlier, spent years investigating hidden wealth, uh,
(37:51):
the storage of money or the transit of money for
billionaires and high net worth individuals. When when you were
in the midst of the research for Nazi billionaires, were
you able to apply some of your earlier research processes
to these cases. I'm just I think we're both interested
(38:14):
in learning how difficult it was or was not to
get to the bottom of stories about complicity. You know,
there are parts of the book where you talk, in
particular about the extreme privacy that a lot of these
airs have. In some cases, it feels like you're you're
(38:36):
searching for answers that don't want to be found. How
how did you navigate that, especially given that these are
very powerful people. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm a reporter.
You know, I'm a reporter first, So I did reporting,
and of course, because I have one air talk to
me or correspond with me on the records. But other
(38:57):
than that, I you know, had spokespeople answer part of
my questions and but for many I also just received
no comments. I received a few statements here and there,
but that it was about it. So I had to
report around the subject, and I had to use with
you know, I had to do multi archive research in
(39:20):
Europe and the United States. You know, of course, one
of the main sources of information are all these massive
academic studies that have been commissioned, but that that you know,
I have never been really delved into or or or
used as sources in a journalistic work that brings this
(39:41):
to a larger audience. I mean, there were many, many
memoirs poured over, you know, hundreds of thousands of historical documents,
all of them thankfully that have been digitalized diaries. The
Diary of Yos of Gobbles was more for the narrative
itself rather than for the larger question. Was it was?
It was? It was a great so us I mean,
and then it's just old fashioned reporting. You know, you
(40:03):
you try to talk to people, but not even the
people you know, as in question didn't want to talk
to me, but also nobody around it, you know, lawyers
or the family offices or you know. It was it's
also exactly these people are extremely private, so you know,
it's um you know, a lot of talks. Spoke with
a lot of historians too in Germany, which was which
(40:25):
was also important to kind of you know, for the
framing of the entire debate. I have to ask that
you know, that really stands out because we've spoken in
the past on this show about how privacy becomes a
powerful currency all its own, especially in a world where
everything is connected, right, and one passage I really wanted
(40:48):
to drill into is we're talking about families. I was
fascinated by how you were able to map out the
families and the business is that they control or controlled,
And in particular I was interested in the story of
the Rieman family where where you say, I mean there,
(41:12):
I had no idea they're a huge deal. And you
also kind of at one point you you mentioned that
there is no public photograph of the Ryman air. Okay,
so that all right? I wanted to make sure it
wasn't misread. No, no, no, no, you are you are
very right. So how did you find these families? Like,
(41:33):
how did you Actually, it's fine, it's it's it's very
interesting to bring up the Rieman's um because it actually
the first story I ever did on a German business
family was for Bloomberg, was in April exactly ten years
ago when Day initiated. When the Riemans or their entity
(41:54):
J A b. Which controls an incredible amount of American
uh fast food and consumer brands. I mean I can go.
I mean there's just so many Krispy Kreme Donuts, you know, yeah,
I mean okay, I mean Krispy Kreame Donuts, Snapple, seven Up, A, Panera, Bread,
(42:16):
Einstein Bros. Bagels, Current Green, Mountain, Pizs Coffee. I mean
that's not even half of Coti, which is the makeup.
I mean there's is incredible. And they built all of
that up, those of the brands except for Corti in
the past ten years because they started the executive to
have a man who made them as richest r today,
(42:38):
the chairman Peter Harve, who initiated this coffee sorry this yeah,
this coffee strategy was in but it started with them
trying to buy with Coti, which I already owned for
for a long time, buying avon the hair products, the
famous American Well it was the door to door seller,
(42:58):
I think. And that's a she the first time I
ever reported on a secretive German dynasty business dynasty, and
you know, the Rhemans. I use them at the end
of the book as a counter example to the other
families in the book because in the they emerge as
as Germany's wealthiest family. Um, you know, I spent years
reporting on them for Bloomberg, reporting on their global deal
(43:23):
making and reporting on all these other families Nazi history,
having no idea that the Rhymans itself had the most
bizarre Nazi history of all of them. So it's it's
crazy how this story For to me, it's crazy how
this story can totally full circle with the Rymans because
in March, just as the as they emerges as Germany's wealthy,
(43:49):
wealthiest family, they have Germany's largest tabloid built on Zontac
or largest Sunday tabloid built on Sunday. They break this
put show this reporter Maximilian ki Will breaks this massive
story about the dark history of of of of of
of of certainly as well for his family, the Riemans,
(44:10):
and he goes into how the patriarchs are you know,
both deeply committed Nazis as members of the doughters to
the SS sit on the municipality in the in the
in the city where they're from in the south of Germany.
For they serve for the Nazi Party. You know, their
company was quite small in comparison to the other families
are right about in the book, but they use hundreds
(44:32):
of of of force labors and their chemical companies and
their chemical company called Bankings are I have a particularly
brutal factory foreman who abuses who you know, abuses force
labors in the most horrific ways. And you know key
Will discovered all of that. Now the Riemans, and I
(44:52):
was quite in touch often with the spokeswoman. Um, you know,
the Riemans had already commissioned a history professor to dig
into that history before the story broke. He was commissioned
years earlier. So you have their chairman, Peter Harf issued
his response. And then two months later, this massive story
(45:14):
in New York Times breaks of the Rhymans of two
Rhyman heirs for the first time ever is being on
the record with Katherine ben Holt, was the New York
Times period chief in Berlin, about how their father, Albert Ryman,
the committed Nazi, had an affair with a Jewish woman
whose father was deprayer. We deported, and and and and
and sorry have Jewish woman, a woman of Jewish with
(45:38):
Jewish roots because her father was Jewish and was murdered
in the Holocaust. M and how they have this this narrative,
this very tragic narrative which are only later found much
later found out about being the heirs of both a
you know, being descendants of both a perpetrator and a victim.
(46:00):
And they end up renaming their foundation in the name
of their murdered grandfather, Alfred Landecker and funding it in
perpetuity with two D fifty million euros, which is you know,
three hundred three D and fifty million dollars every ten years,
(46:21):
and but still being transparent about that. Their patriarchs, you know,
we're total Nazeas and and and anti Semits. And even
their great aunt was married to an s. S Man.
I mean, it's really like they were just truly a
Nazi family. And then you know Albert Ryman, their their
their father who was married to a woman but didn't
(46:41):
have children. For father's three children with this have Jewish
woman and and you know these airs end up um
as all of their cousins end up as Germany's wealthiest family.
So it's it's totally it was total bizarre, totally bizarre story,
you know. I mean, it's it's very tragic and and
(47:02):
just is surreal and tragic. I mean, I can't I
can't make it and anything else of it. Wow, thank you, Ben,
I did not I did not know that last story.
I guess from the end of the book there. Wow. Okay, um, David,
we have a unique thing here where we've just completed
our first book and it's coming on October check it out.
(47:24):
And we we know the process now of uh, cutting, cutting?
What is it killing your darlings? The expression of like
having to get rid of certain parts of the book
because they just don't happen to fit in the story
you're telling. I wonder if there's anything in your research
that you came across that would you know, just be
a story that you'd want to tell that you had
(47:44):
to take out of the book. Oh wow, it's such
a good question. I had to cut about a hundred
badges of the I end up cutting about a hundred
padges of the book. I think everything it's sort is
kind of a laments, But I think everything that I
wanted in the book ended up in it, because you know,
the hundred pages that were cut. How great editor in
the US Alexander little Field and in the UK are
(48:06):
Abella Pike, and they you know, they gave fantastic structual
feedback which allowed me to rewrite the story in a
way which made it far more slimmer and better paced.
And those hundred pages that were cut were really we're
just redundant, was redundant information. So you know, everything that
(48:27):
I wanted in there ended up being in there. I
didn't really feel that I had to cut any major darlings,
which I feel very blessed about. Congratulations, wonderful And with this,
you know, we have to we have to ask. There's
a sense of mission right to telling stories that some
(48:48):
powerful people would rather not be told. And I think
we're both very interested in the audience as well. Today.
I think we're all interested in hearing what what you
hope comes about as a result of this, of this investigation,
what you know. I saw an earlier interview, not that
(49:09):
we were stalking you too much, but saw an earlier
interview where where someone to ask you what the reaction
in Germany was like when the book came out, and
you had said, at least at that time, you had
said the press was a bit silent. Was that the case?
(49:30):
I mean, I mean the book. I mean we're talking
on April twentie The book came out on April nineteen,
so yesterday, and an interview was also from yesterday, and
you know so far, I mean, the German translation is
gonna come out May five, and we'll see. I mean,
it is an extremely fraught subject in Germany. Still, the
(49:51):
press laws in Germany are also not as free as
they are in the US. Unfortunately. Um, you know, so
it is very it is very difficult to you know
what I mean. You can report on it, but it's
all it's it's all. It's a very it's a very
fraught narrative in Germany still, of course, and so far
(50:13):
that the German press has been in silent. We'll see
what happens when the German translation comes out. Germany, as
is the US, to their massive countries, massive economies, and
they're very they're insular countries. You know, they look inward,
you know, because they're so big, they don't really need
to look at at other you know, and and Germany itself.
You know, it's not natural, per se to to to
(50:34):
take over what the English language press is is writing.
You know, you saw that with many things that happened,
like when the Built editor in chief was fired only
after Ben Smith of the of then of the New
York Times still wrote a column about his about his
you know, his sexual madrassment cases are wrong. I mean,
these were facts were known in Germany for for for
(50:56):
months and months already, you know, they were, but only
after New York Times because of course, because actual Springer,
the conglomerate that owns Built just bought political for a billion.
They were realized, Okay, our business enterts are at risk here.
You know, it's a story with wire Card. I don't
know if you followed that story that the Ft journalist
Dan McCrum reported on incredibly well, um, you know they didn't.
(51:20):
They accused FT of the German Stock Market Regulator Um.
The accus c FT of basically manipulating and Dan crum
was was sued in Germany for his reporting, you know,
until until wire Card went bankrupt and filed for insolvency
and now the CEO is in pretties on trial and
(51:41):
the CFO is missing. It was it was, you know,
prepared to be a Russian spy. I mean, this is
also story you guys should look in because it's so
it's such a good story. Den mcrumb is coming up
with his book Layer this year, and I'm sure it's
gonna make a huge class because the guys stories about
wire Card or wild so so often nothing happens in
(52:01):
Germany until stories are reported in the English language press.
But it also takes a little bit, you know for
things to land in German. You know, it's Germany's in
many ways, it's old fashioned. It's an old fashioned country
in many, many ways. Yeah, it's going, it's having your
right direction, but but you know it still has a big,
big ways to go. All right, So May five, we're
(52:22):
gonna set our set our alarms here to know, ex
keep an eye on dear Spiegel. Yeah, we've first thank
you for being so generous with your time, David, as
as you can tell and as our as our listeners
can tell as well, we agree that humanity, civilization owes
(52:48):
it to itself to be transparent about these stories, even
even if they seem to make people uncomfortable. I would say,
especially if they seem to make people uncomfortable because they're
discomfited for a reason. In with with this, uh, what
we can say is we wanted to hold off on
(53:08):
this interview until the book was out now, so so
now that the book is out in the world, you
can find Nazi Billionaires The Dark History of Germany's Wealthiest
Dynasties anywhere good books are sold. German listeners, as as
David and Matt pointed out, the German edition is coming
up May five, keep an eye on the news on
(53:30):
the other side of the pond. And with this you know,
I I know we're talking a little bit off air,
but you're already onto some new projects, is that correct? Yeah,
I'm moving to to the Middle East, moving to Tel Aviv.
To be more specific. My partner has a job. She's
the the new correspondent for German TV for Israel and
(53:53):
the Palestinian territories, and she has already moved here in
August said, I mean, can you imagine it off for
a job in journalism, then being the German Core TV
correspondent for German television in Israel and preston in territories.
I mean, I have so much respect for her. She's
she's an incredible reporter and incredible hard worker and somebody
(54:14):
who studied both Arabic and Hebrew university and just you know,
um amazed that that that that I get to be
with her, such an incredible woman. We wish her safety
just yeah, I mean yeah, just reading news from from
that region and on this other on this other side
of the world, there's a tremendous sense of you know, yeah,
(54:35):
it's dangerous, it is it is, yes, absolutely, And I'll
be covering the Middle East, the larger Middle East, um
from from from Tel Aviv. Um, still covering financial and
finance and business as usual. Okay, well, can't wait to
learn about you know, the oil money. It's gonna be exciting, yes,
(54:55):
and yeah, it's gonna be a lot of focus on
the Gulf and dude, yeah all right. Well, David, is
there a specific place that people should go to to
get your book? If you want to order it to online,
do a bookshop dot org because I support local booksellers
and independent bookstores. They need all the help they can get.
UM and you know you can find me on Twitter
(55:16):
and Instagram at David de Young. And with that, folks,
we are going to call it a day. Get the
to your local bookstore and find out more about this
very important story. Very powerful people would rather you not here. Uh.
We can't thank you enough, David, for being so generous,
(55:38):
as we said, with your time today, and we cannot
thank you enough for the herculean amount of research that
you have put into this. I I knew it was
serious when I was I was Matt and I were
lucky enough to read advanced copies. And I opened the
book and one of the first things I see are
(55:59):
this collection of maps, and I think, okay, this is
gonna be one of those things where you don't read
it straight through. I'm gonna have to go back to
some stuff, and so I broke out, broke out some
sticky notes and con track. Yeah, and we're just we're
grateful this is in the world and we can't wait
to see where this adventure takes you. But please stay
(56:20):
safe and uh and we'll talk with you soon. Thank
you very much for having me ben in, Matt. It's
really a pleasure. And as always, if you would like
to connect with us regarding ideas for a future episode,
regarding your own experience with Hidden History, we'd love to
hear from you. We try to be easy to find
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(56:43):
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(57:04):
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(57:34):
want you to know. Is a production of I heart Radio.
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From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
My name is Matt. Our colleague Nola is on an adventure,
but will be returning shortly. They called me Ben. We
are joined as always with our super producer Paul. Mission
Control deconds. Most importantly, you are you, You are here,
and that makes this the stuff they don't want you
to know. We are quite excited about today's episode. You know,
(00:47):
it's um it's reminding me, Matt. It's often said that
there is a great crime at the heart of every
great fortune. And it's also often said that two sorts
of laws exist who sets of laws, One for the
very very wealthy, one for everyone else, all the other schmucks.
But in today's episode, we're diving deep into a story
(01:09):
that doesn't often get told until now. You know, if
you're a longtime listener to the show, you know about
things like Project paper Clip, the secret program Uncle Sam
used to bring Nazi regime scientists to the US. But
that's only part of a much, much larger story. What
about the other secrets, What about particularly all those business
(01:29):
leaders in Germany, the individuals, the families, the dynasties who
made fortunes off the atrocities of the Third Reich, And
what about their heirs? What about the folks who inherited
these fortunes. This is the question our guest journalist and
author David DeJong explores in his newest book, Nazi Billionaires,
The Dark History of Germany's Wealthiest Dynasties. David, thank you
(01:53):
so much for joining us today. Thank you, gentlemen for
having me. It's a pleasure. We're very excited to be
speaking with you. Uh, we've read through much of your book. Then,
I believed you've read the entire thing, U and we've
we've watched interviews, we've talked about Nazis since we were
making videos back in two thousand ten. That it's just,
(02:13):
you know, when you make videos about the unknown and
mysteries and strange things. The Third Reich has plenty of
material to go into, but we we have never explored
the fortunes that were built off of things that occurred
during the Third Reich's reign. So we can't thank you know,
for doing the research for writing this book. Uh, I think,
what Ben, let's just let's talk about, like, David, how
(02:35):
did you get into this? How did you begin this
investigation and journey. I started looking into these families at
when while I was still at Bloomberg News, I was
working as a reporter in New York. I was actually
hired in late eleven on his new team, which investigated
hidden wealth and billionaire fortunes, and the team it started
(02:56):
right around when Occupy Wall Street ended, So there was
this really you know, it's basically the start of this
of this narrative of the one percent versus I mean,
since then it's really become the zero point one percent
versus pot nine percent. And I was hired as one
of the of the reporters to cover the America's but
(03:18):
I was soon asked after a couple of months too
to cover the German speaking countries because I am Dutch.
I'm a native Dutchman, and I you know, I tell
a little bit about in the book about how I
had this sort of reluctance to cover German fortunes or
(03:39):
German or German business in general. You know, I'm probably
I was born in the late eighties, probably the last
of the generation which grew up with this kind of
I call it in the book playful antagonism that I
had visa feed Germany, the Germans, you know, because of
the brutal occupation that that that happened, you know in
the Netherlands between May and May, which also affected my family. Uh.
(04:06):
My grandfather was you know, he tried to sail to
England with his best friend, was very avid sailor um
and to join the Royal Air Force. In one and
the second time his boat was blown back to shore.
They were arrested by German soldiers and they were sentenced
as political prisoners to two year forest labor in the
(04:28):
rural area in Germany just over the border. And you know,
my grandfather was six six ft seven. He came out
weighing ninety pounds and luckily, you know, he survived. He
come valesced in the sanatorium in Switzerland and got married
to my grandmother, and my mother soon was born after.
And then as for my my father's parents were Jewish,
(04:49):
and as were my great grandparents and my grandfather he
had an amster them for three and a half years
after his textile factories that the Dutch German border work
were seized, and my grandmother was you know, she was Swiss.
She was Swiss, and she fled with my my aunt
was three at the time and a companion to the
(05:09):
French Swiss border, and they were arrested by the Gestapo,
by by the shop bishop or the Nazi Germany secret police,
and miraculously a Gestapo officer to pity on them and
let them and to pity on my aunt and my
grandmother and let them off, and then they fled over
the mountains into Switzerland and into safety. But her companion
(05:30):
was deported to too Soviet boy and was murdered. So
it was you know, it's a miracle that I am
here today. And I was very much especially by my
maternal grandfather. He lived and described in a book. I mean,
he lived in a very small village in the south
of the Netherlands where all the Germans would always go
every summer to to to to go to on beach
holidays um nearby, and you know, then he would always
(05:50):
quit um you know, another invasion incoming. And he he
kind of raised me always that he was kind of
my hero. My maternal funding income raised this idea, you know,
don't don't take the Germans too seriously, because they take
themselves too seriously. But I came, actually came to take
them very seriously, particularly you know, when I was asked
(06:12):
to cover big business and finance in Germany, because you
know what I what I quickly found is that particularly
large brands like BMW and Porsche, they maintain these global
foundations in the name of their founders or their or
their saviors or the patriarchs, and they celebrate these men's
(06:33):
business successes, but they do not mention anywhere that they're
conducting philanthropy global philanthropy in the name of men who
committed war crimes, are men who were members of the
s S. And that is actually the reason why I
wrote a book, not because of my personal relation to
the story or because of my personal background. No, it's
(06:56):
because I was just stunned by after so called reckoning
as they as they see it occurred that they're still
doing the they're they're still maintaining these you know, doing
these fib You know, not only it's not only foundations,
it's global head corps, corporate headquarters, it's it's journalism prizes
in the name of these men without being transparent about
(07:19):
about the bad things they've done on these other writing
a business success, and I think that is that is,
you know, leaving out that history is unacceptable to me. Yeah,
it's deeply unethical, to say the least. And that's something
that really stuck with us when we were diving into
the stories here, because you know, I do have to
admit there's a bit of dark humor with Bloomberg saying Okay, yeah,
(07:42):
go go cover this, and you having to say, do
you have any idea, well, what you're asking me to do?
And I could sense that, I could sense that reticence,
but it did it did pay off in a way
that many, especially many Americans, are not aware of. You know,
many people in the US know of some business stories
(08:07):
from that time in Nazi Germany, you know, like Coca
Cola inventing Fanta, or ib MS disturbingly cozy relationship with
the Third Reich. Yeah, and the list goes on. But
people here often think of those relationships as singular, isolated
moments in business history, isolated from the current day. And
(08:32):
I want to know if that is an attitude or
a perspective that you have encountered in Europe in the US,
or maybe even in Germany itself. Is there an active,
coordinated effort in some cases to sanitize history for lack
of a better term, I mean, here's this kind of
tried and true mefort, at least in Germany, where you
(08:53):
know a media scout, you know, it's like clockwork. Every
year some media scot has kind no breaks about a
famous German business dynasty with global business interests for the
most part, and you know, some investigative reporter in Germany
digs up there they're hidden activities of Patriarch X, you know,
(09:14):
who was a committed Nazi party member who use mass
force and slave labor, who mass produced weapons, who you know,
acquired companies stolen from Jews or acquired shares far below
market value because people were desperate to leave to flee
Jewish people were desperate to flee Nazi Germany, or expropriated
(09:35):
companies of people who were in a livelhood of people
who were living in occupied territories. So what then happens
are to the responses? Then, Okay, we're going to commission
an academic study. It's going to be an independent academic study.
You know, we're we're we've we've we've asked a prominent
German history professor to to to do this. Him his
(09:56):
team as researchers will conduct this and and you know,
three or four years later, you know, we will open
our archives as well for the first time and three
four years lead and then it's silent, you know, and
then three or four years later study the studies published
X gives one Maya kupa interview um and and about
(10:17):
what happens then with the reckoning. I mean, you have
a very dense academic study in German that does not
reach a wider audience. It remains the story itself, remains
contained to Germany. And you know, barely any translations, you know,
bar few exceptions, you have very few translations of these
studies ever ever produced. And the question that I also
(10:41):
have in like a large pictures, who exactly is this
reckoning dis reported? Reckoning with right? Because you know, for
the most part, the Germans were not see the victims
of Germany's own crimes. It were millions and millions of
others living in Europe. You know, we're forced into forced
or or slave labor um, particularly in Eastern Europe, you know, Poland, Ukraine, Russia,
(11:07):
Belarus party taking in some part as well in in
the Holocaust too, you know, or or having led concentration
camps and in etcetera, or having built them who then
is directing with because it never reaches the surviving former
force or slave labors or their heirs. Right, they don't
read academic German. So then companies like BMW and Porsche
(11:31):
can can go on and pretending like nothing has happened.
And it is also the sense is that they lean
on Germany's collective guilt, right we were all I mean,
you know, you also to imagine that Germany still, you know,
every time one of these business families or one of
these massive global companies comes out with a study. I mean,
they get inundated with this stuff. You know, you get
(11:51):
so in Germany, learning about the third right era is
is it's you know, and being confronted with it is omnipresent, right,
so it is you know it point Unfortunately, you become
I mean I imagined they become desensitized to it, so
in a way that you're able to contain these narratives
to Germany. And yeah, I'm bringing to a global audience
(12:11):
down for the first time when we're glad you're doing that. Uh,
you just hit on something that I just want to
talk a little bit further about. You kind of you
outlined it pretty quickly there, but this is two parts.
So first, are there any car manufacturers that don't have
a background relationship with the Third Reich? I was just
looking through the list in the book and yeah, goodness,
(12:35):
yeah no, yeah, but that's kind of a joke question.
I'm sorry, but but you just name so many major
car manufacturers that are still big players today that did
have a background. Let's dive a little deeper into what
exactly companies like BMW we're doing during the reign of
the third Third Reich to to gain profits and um
(12:55):
to make those fortunes that we're talking about. The main
family I'm writing about qua who came to control BMW
after World War Two. So the patriarch Gunther Quanta and
his son Herbert. They they controlled guns, mainly controlled and
and operated a massive battery manufacturer and a massive arms manufacturer.
(13:19):
And quickly after Hitler sees his power, he starts in
secret this massive rearmament push and you know all the
industrialists who by the way, and it is also one
of the maps and charge of the spell in the book.
You know, most of the families I'm writing about, we're
already extremely wealthy when Hitler sees power, except for the
(13:40):
poor Shapire family who today controls the Volkswagen group, which
has Art Porsche. Volkswagen says good to Bentley Lamborghini. So
around the largest garn manufacturers in the world. Their wealth
really started because of their relation with the Third Reich
and because Hitler put the Volkswagen in production, which for
non Porsche car design company also ended up taking off
(14:04):
in this era. And you know, all of them works
already extremely wealthy bar them. And after the big Weronman
push starts, billions and billions flow into the coverers of
of the industrialists that are producing that we are now
producing mass producing weapons. And then you have all these
decrees that come out that are issued which you know
(14:27):
incrementally takes the assets of Jewish people living in or
seizes the companies of Jewish people living in Germany. Of course,
once the war breaks out, you have that extended, you know,
to Nazi occupied territories as well as you know where
because German Men were being called to the front. This
(14:49):
mass rounding up of people all across of the men
and women all across and teenagers to all across Europe
who were then being shipped off or people ordered to
forcibly work in factories in all across Germany, as well
as slave labor from concentration camp, but from concentration camps
later on during the war. So these are really the
(15:12):
main components of how these families benefited from the Third Rock,
and benefit they did because as you as you established
in the recent New York Times article, which which is
also a fantastic overview of some of the problems here,
as you established you you open with some critical facts
(15:35):
about the scope and power of Germans modern automotive industry.
Right it is, it is huge. To call it a
leviathan is maybe a bit unfair even, but it's not
hyperboly the it's not. I think it's a pretty fair description. Yeah. Well,
the thing that gets me about this is, and I
think it gets Matt you as well, is that for
(15:57):
people in the US, there's quite a disturbing comparison to
be made between the deification of these titans of industry
and their families. And we've got to talk more about
those families in a second, But there's there's this clear
comparison to be had between the way that parts of
the US have deified um Confederate memorials right or officers
(16:23):
in the Confederate Army. And I'm wondering, in your opinion,
what how would the people of Germany react if there
was a movement to you know, take these Nazi sympathizers
names off of foundations or to you know, be more
(16:44):
transparent about their past. Would they would the German establishment
push against this? What would the reckoning be interesting? That's
a very interesting question. I think there would be the
German establishment, which is embarked art these families I'm writing about,
of course, and they are and they're handlers and and
and the entire culture around around them, of course don't
(17:05):
to too large extent do not do that right. They
leave their dark histories out on the websites of the
of the global foundation they control through you know, the
global brands such as BMW, nportion. But I think the
vast majority of Germans would be delighted if they know,
if they knew, if they're aware, would be delighted to
(17:26):
to you know, either see these companies being pushed to
be transparent about it online or or C d C,
T c C, these foundations or media prizes or corporate quarters,
um renamed. I mean what I write in the s
in the New York Times, I say, is what I
wrote in New York Times. I say as well, was
(17:46):
how you know I lived? I moved for this book.
I moved from from from New York to Berlin in
late And you know, there is such a awareness and
such a new ones and such a such a introspective
discussion going on in Germany about this past. And it
(18:10):
seems like the most powerful players in Germany do not
want to do not want to participate in that. And
that is of course very damaging because these families are
not only economically powerful, the quality BMW quants are also
the largest donors to to the Christian Conservative said Miracle
Angela Merkel's party, right um. And and you know there's
(18:34):
books people all were worked for cdo politicians. So it's
very much this is the total establishment I'm writing about.
And and they they clearly do not want to want
to engage in this on a global level. At least
I want to play Devil's advocate just for a moment.
For this I I spent quite a bit of time
on some of these foundations websites where You're right, they
(18:55):
don't talk about any of these things and the connections,
but they do all of them without exception. They have
these very lofty goals they've you know, they state things
about their missions that like I I love like this,
these are great things to try and do and and
to work towards and to pour money into. Um. I
(19:15):
I just it feels as though there's good work. And
specifically I'm looking right now at the BMW Herbert kunt Foundation,
uh and I just like what, um what is the goal?
What is the goal? I guess in in having foundation
like that like really come to terms with their past.
It's not the foundation, of course, it's it's it's accompany
(19:36):
itself and it's controlling shareholders. And it's quite perverse. In
the case of the BMW. Quantz who commissioned is academic
study two pousand seven after a critical TV documentary you know,
came out on Good jour and Herbert Quantz third rag
Past and arch activities and you know, four years day
(19:58):
to study is published. Stephan Quanto was one of, together
with his sisters, the controlling shareholder of BMW gives this
interview to decide Um, one of Germany's leading newspapers, and says,
you know, we're not going to rename our headquarters and
if you going to Quant, we're not going to rename
(20:20):
our media price. And after Herbert Quant, we're not going
to rename our foundation. But we will remember them in
you know, the with the good and the bad things.
But it becomes completely but it never says how they're
going to do that, right so in s so what
leads to this very perverse situation where in twenty sixteen
they they make the BMW foundation Herbert Quant global and
(20:44):
make it much larger, and Stefan Stefan Quand and Susanna Klatten,
the siblings you know, both give you know, tens of
millions of dollars to his foundation and then the motto
is inspire responsible leader ship. I mean, you can't make
this up in the name of a man who, yes,
(21:05):
he said BMW from bankruptcy in ninette, but who also
this man you know, who also built or a planned
built and and and dismantled a sub concentration camp in
Nazi occupied Poland early who had to responsibility over over
battery factories in Berlin, where you know, thousands of force
(21:29):
and slave laborers were used, including five hundred female slave
laborers from concentration camps who helped acquire companies in France
sees from Jews and we use at as private estate
prisoners of war and forced labor. And to inspire responsible
leadership is to be transparent about that history and not
to leave that up. You know, the BMW Foundation, I
(21:52):
asked them and they said, well, we are only concerned
with what what what Herbert Quant did during his ownership
of BMW between nine and his death in two Whereas
when the spokes the spokesperson for seven Quanta, Susanna Clatter,
(22:12):
when they suddenly replaced part of the biography on the
Herbert Quant Media Price, said oh, this year we decided
to to replace after ten this year we did, we
reviewed our web presence and we decided to go for
a more holistic biography of Herbert Quant, which now shows
that these And they did that a couple of months
(22:35):
after I asked you an ignored question about where they
considered the website of the Herbert Kuan Media Price a
journalism price, wherefore also of Germany's most high profile journalists
serve on if they consider that to be open and transparent.
Never got a response on that question. Three months later, overnight,
suddenly a new biography footnote that still leaves out a
(22:56):
lot of Herbert Quantz Nazi activities, but at least now
it's says that that he had to responsibility of these
brilliant battery factories. And then you have the spokesman saying,
after I con front of him with it, he said, oh,
we decided to go for a more holistic view of
Herbert que side, which you know, I mean, it's it's
it's truly beyond irony, unfortunately, and we were going to
(23:16):
take a quick commercial break, but we'll be right back,
and we've returned with David de Jon. I want to
set up a moment in the very beginning of the
book where in you right beautifully about this really disturbing,
(23:43):
weird meeting in February. I believe it is. Yes, yes,
so uh this you fulk. You'll have to check out
the book yourself to get the actual language here, but
there to paraphrase it or to summarize, around two dozen
of the absolute most powerful members of Germany's business community
(24:07):
meet at Herman Goring's house, and they're under the impression
that this new chancellor on the block, this Adolph Hitler guy,
is gonna just, you know, explain his policies to the group, right,
and uh, then there's a bunch of power plays that
happened at the very beginning. It quickly becomes a parent
(24:28):
that this is not the meeting these guys thought they
were going to. And it ties into a two part
question I have and I think we all have it. First,
what actually happened at the meeting? How did it shape
the events of the future? And then secondly, knowing how
that meeting went, is it a good faith argument for
(24:52):
these business leaders to have said they were forced to
participate or to collaborate with the regime, because you know
you have did also later in the work that that
was that was something a few people said, right like,
it wasn't my choice to do this, I was forced to. Yeah,
these are both really good questions. So as to your
(25:12):
first question, at the point of the meeting happens on
February ninety three, the Nazi Party is dead, broke, They're
twelve million Heist mark in debt, and I mean it's
like tens of millions in dollars today and they you know,
they summoned these businessmen under guise of of having Hitler
expence for economic policy, and they're basically being asked to
(25:35):
pony up to a election slush fund um to to
to finance the election campaign that in the run up
to March five. But by the time the election happens,
and a week after the meeting, the stock burns down
(25:57):
under the most mysterious of circumstances still hasn't cleared up exactly.
A show trial happens where a couple of members Communist
Party members put to trial and are executed, but it's
not clear still to this day who actually set the
ice stuck on fire. So you know, martial law is implemented,
(26:18):
and basically all the Communists and all Communists and social
Democrats in Germany are arrested. Um and and also during
that speech on February twenty February, Gurring and Hitlers say
the election of March three is going to be the
last election that's going to occur in Germany for the
(26:39):
past for the next ten years to a hundred years time.
So that ends up being about three million rice mark
ends up being paid by various companies and and and
and industrialists and financiers. But the election itself doesn't really
matter anymore because Hitler has already seized power, and and
(27:00):
and martial law has been declared. So did that money
really matter? Probably not that much, because the fire happened,
and and and and and law and the rule of
law is suspended best degree, but at least as Gobble
as Joseph Gobbles, the Nazi propaganda or the Nazi campaign
manager and propaganda leader brighton this diary the next day
(27:24):
after the meeting, saying, you know, the millions are here.
You know, we can put the presses back to work.
So at least for one to two weeks, they had
they they had money, they had cash on hand, and
they could run an election campaign. Wow, the rule of
law was suspended, what was being suspended? And and and
everything else happens, So that that's that's one. Now as
(27:45):
to your second question, did they have a choice in
the matter? Do you mean generally or at that meeting?
I mean I mean generally because I believe when we're
talking about facing possible consequences after the conclusion of World
War Two, there were a lot of people saying, you know,
over the course of this I was forced to do
(28:07):
these things. Yeah, um, yeah, they had a choice. I mean,
there's the example of Fritz Teason of you know, Tesson
Group now teasing Croup. Back then it was the Tecent
Steell conglomerate and the Croup still conglomerate. And you know,
Fritz Teason was one of Hitler's earliest backers and um
(28:28):
of the industrialist because the industrially staid in then in
the businessman for the business community first was like they
didn't want anything to do with Hitler. So only when
he started being electorally successful that there were in the
crash of October happens on Wall Street and the economy
is in a big grade propression starts that they're coming
around to this idea of you know, let's check out
(28:50):
this Hitler guy. And and Hitler himself and his and
his entourage had had no connection barely any connections to
two business people at that point in time. Talking leg
nineteen thirty early Fritz season, one of Hitler's earliest backers,
already starts backing him in the mid nineteen twenties. He
(29:10):
ends up he is a member of Parliament at the
eve of the of of Germany's invasion of Poland in September,
n ends up voting against the invasion and and fleeing Germany,
going to Paris, where he has an American journalist write
(29:30):
in this whitewash book called right a bright whitewash men
Mark called I paid Hitler and he's arrested, and Fritz
season is and ends up in a concentration camp. So
he you know, you're talking about part of Germany's most
powerful industrialists who just two turns against the regime and
(29:50):
has as a result, has his um has his still
conglomerate of course appropriated or put under trusteeship of of
somebody else. Actually the right hand man, one of the
main characters in my book. And um, you know you
so you had it, you know, if you you could
turn again. They had a choice, absolutely to had a choice.
Gunter Quant arguably the main character of my book, or
(30:14):
one of the main characters in my book. You know,
he writes in his wide Wash memoir that he that
he that he writes after the war ninety four seven,
when he's in detention, when he's in American detention, actually
in Germany. He writes how he could have left to
North America or South America, where his business partners were
(30:35):
during that era, but that he stayed put, you know,
as he puts it himself, to be a loyal soldier
to you know, to to to protect his his his
factories and his employees for for you know, to keep
them running basically, so he admits that, you know, he
frames himself as a as a you know, as a Nazi,
as an anti Nazi, and somebody who was a victim
(30:56):
of the regime, even though he was not one of
Nazi Germany's largest arms men of lecturers and one of the
the largest user of force and slave labor, and one
of the largest beneficiaries of stolen companies, both in Germany
and occupied territories. I want to I want to stay
in that realm Um. Many children are taught about the
(31:19):
Nuremberg Trials, and they're aware of those things and the
consequences of people who are directly involved in the war,
especially you know, on the military front. I personally, and
I think many of the many people out there don't
know what happened to these corporations and these private interests
post World War Two that are in Germany. Um, what
(31:40):
happened to a company like BMW after a war like that.
There were all these plans, you know, the initial planets
of Henry Morgantower was a Treasury secretary on the Roosevelt,
you know, proposed this famous plan initially, and I think
believe it was n which became known as the Morganto Plan.
And which is this which basically caused for this the
(32:03):
complete destruction and dismantling of all of German industry and
and the summarily execution of you know, not only of
military and political leaders, but also of of German industrialists.
Their plan ends up being scrapped, and instead there is
a focus on as they called it, the five d s,
(32:24):
which is which is in the in the pot Stem
Agreement of August, which style in Harry Truman and the
silent Harry Truman and Clement at least the successor to Roosevelt,
agree on. You know, the five ds are the natification,
which is a word you hear a lot nowadays, because
it's what Vladimir Putin uses to describe what he's doing
(32:47):
in Ukraine. Just obscene. The word of the the use
of I mean, what he's doing is horrific. But the
use of that word the nattification in that context, because
the natification was became a very flawed legal process that
saw millions of Germans basically go free for crimes that
(33:09):
committed under the Nazi during the Third Ride or simple
Nazi sympathies that they had. So the notification. There's decartilization,
which means it means the that the cartels, the big
industrial conglomerates were broken up. Deconcentration which was referred to
German industry being less concentrated, being less in the hands
(33:30):
of being less you know, too big to fail, less
in the hands of the very few. And the militarization,
which speaks for itself. But in the end, you know,
the de concentration and decarcialization, they happened with a company
like Ek Farban, which was the largest chemical company in
the world at the time. And you know you have
(33:52):
today you have Buyer and B A. S F. Which
is today Buyer is one of the large pharmaceutical companies
in the world and B A. S F is the
large chemical company in the world who both came out
of what Eka Farben was. And you know, there's Eka
Farmer for the reb but the rest all the German
(34:14):
company was basically or the German business basically remained intact.
There wasn't massive continuation of the power structures e can
both economic and politically, but mainly economically that remained in
place because, of course, very soon after World War Two happens,
the Cold War emerges, and it's in America's best or
(34:36):
deems that in its best interest to have a strong, industrialized,
democratic West Germany to you as used as a bulwark
against the encroaching Soviet Union, and for that it needed
a economically viable West Germany. So German business needed to
be protected, and German businessmen, um, you know, except for
(34:57):
the three industrialist trials at New rom Burg, we basically
let off scot free. I'm seeing so many parallels. It's
kind of what Ben was already talking about here, parallels
between what occurred then and then what we're seeing happen
right now. And you just hit on it just with
a simple word that's being thrown around right now as
a as a justification for actions being taken that appear
(35:19):
to be appear to be World War three, like let's say, um, well,
and it makes me think about the economic sanctions that
are placed like the weapon of war of choice from
you know, NATO and and much of the West is
economic and we're hitting in these places. We're hitting the
(35:40):
industry right as much as possible. UM. I'm just wondering
how you after doing all this research, looking at the
profit centers of the Third Reich, looking at these these
families that you know, you can kind of see it
mirrored in the oligarchs, Like what what what other mirrored
situations do you see happening right now? From what you've
(36:02):
learned in researching this, what you see happening now, of
course is the main parallel is what's happening with the
Russian oligarchs and their Devil's packed with with Vladimir Putin,
which was of course the Russian oligarchs for the most part,
took there, you know, grabbed the their initial assets in
(36:23):
this in the wild west of the Russia of the
under Boris Yeltsen, and then consolidated their power with you know,
with this devil's packed Imputin in the early two thousand's
and have been allowed to operate unfettered globally since and
(36:44):
are now having this moment of reckoning because of Russia's
invasion of Ukraine. And of course because of their because
they owe their which or they owe their maintenance of
their billion fortune and assets to their relationship with Putin.
That's the clearest example I can I can. You know,
it's the clear I mean, it is very very you know,
(37:07):
in a sense, it's very timely. But that's the you know,
it's it's the clearest example I can figure at the moment.
Let's pause for a moment. We'll have a word from
our sponsor, who is hopefully not Krispy Kreme, and we'll
be back with more from David Dejng. And we're back
(37:27):
with more from author David. One other thing that's interesting,
when we're looking at the human element of this um
you had already, I want to talk a little bit
about process this sort of a meta question. UM. You have,
as we established earlier, spent years investigating hidden wealth, uh,
(37:51):
the storage of money or the transit of money for
billionaires and high net worth individuals. When when you were
in the midst of the research for Nazi billionaires, were
you able to apply some of your earlier research processes
to these cases. I'm just I think we're both interested
(38:14):
in learning how difficult it was or was not to
get to the bottom of stories about complicity. You know,
there are parts of the book where you talk, in
particular about the extreme privacy that a lot of these
airs have. In some cases, it feels like you're you're
(38:36):
searching for answers that don't want to be found. How
how did you navigate that, especially given that these are
very powerful people. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm a reporter.
You know, I'm a reporter first, So I did reporting,
and of course, because I have one air talk to
me or correspond with me on the records. But other
(38:57):
than that, I you know, had spokespeople answer part of
my questions and but for many I also just received
no comments. I received a few statements here and there,
but that it was about it. So I had to
report around the subject, and I had to use with
you know, I had to do multi archive research in
(39:20):
Europe and the United States. You know, of course, one
of the main sources of information are all these massive
academic studies that have been commissioned, but that that you know,
I have never been really delved into or or or
used as sources in a journalistic work that brings this
(39:41):
to a larger audience. I mean, there were many, many
memoirs poured over, you know, hundreds of thousands of historical documents,
all of them thankfully that have been digitalized diaries. The
Diary of Yos of Gobbles was more for the narrative
itself rather than for the larger question. Was it was?
It was? It was a great so us I mean,
and then it's just old fashioned reporting. You know, you
(40:03):
you try to talk to people, but not even the
people you know, as in question didn't want to talk
to me, but also nobody around it, you know, lawyers
or the family offices or you know. It was it's
also exactly these people are extremely private, so you know,
it's um you know, a lot of talks. Spoke with
a lot of historians too in Germany, which was which
(40:25):
was also important to kind of you know, for the
framing of the entire debate. I have to ask that
you know, that really stands out because we've spoken in
the past on this show about how privacy becomes a
powerful currency all its own, especially in a world where
everything is connected, right, and one passage I really wanted
(40:48):
to drill into is we're talking about families. I was
fascinated by how you were able to map out the
families and the business is that they control or controlled,
And in particular I was interested in the story of
the Rieman family where where you say, I mean there,
(41:12):
I had no idea they're a huge deal. And you
also kind of at one point you you mentioned that
there is no public photograph of the Ryman air. Okay,
so that all right? I wanted to make sure it
wasn't misread. No, no, no, no, you are you are
very right. So how did you find these families? Like,
(41:33):
how did you Actually, it's fine, it's it's it's very
interesting to bring up the Rieman's um because it actually
the first story I ever did on a German business
family was for Bloomberg, was in April exactly ten years
ago when Day initiated. When the Riemans or their entity
(41:54):
J A b. Which controls an incredible amount of American
uh fast food and consumer brands. I mean I can go.
I mean there's just so many Krispy Kreme Donuts, you know, yeah,
I mean okay, I mean Krispy Kreame Donuts, Snapple, seven Up, A, Panera, Bread,
(42:16):
Einstein Bros. Bagels, Current Green, Mountain, Pizs Coffee. I mean
that's not even half of Coti, which is the makeup.
I mean there's is incredible. And they built all of
that up, those of the brands except for Corti in
the past ten years because they started the executive to
have a man who made them as richest r today,
(42:38):
the chairman Peter Harve, who initiated this coffee sorry this yeah,
this coffee strategy was in but it started with them
trying to buy with Coti, which I already owned for
for a long time, buying avon the hair products, the
famous American Well it was the door to door seller,
(42:58):
I think. And that's a she the first time I
ever reported on a secretive German dynasty business dynasty, and
you know, the Rhemans. I use them at the end
of the book as a counter example to the other
families in the book because in the they emerge as
as Germany's wealthiest family. Um, you know, I spent years
reporting on them for Bloomberg, reporting on their global deal
(43:23):
making and reporting on all these other families Nazi history,
having no idea that the Rhymans itself had the most
bizarre Nazi history of all of them. So it's it's
crazy how this story For to me, it's crazy how
this story can totally full circle with the Rymans because
in March, just as the as they emerges as Germany's wealthy,
(43:49):
wealthiest family, they have Germany's largest tabloid built on Zontac
or largest Sunday tabloid built on Sunday. They break this
put show this reporter Maximilian ki Will breaks this massive
story about the dark history of of of of of
of of certainly as well for his family, the Riemans,
(44:10):
and he goes into how the patriarchs are you know,
both deeply committed Nazis as members of the doughters to
the SS sit on the municipality in the in the
in the city where they're from in the south of Germany.
For they serve for the Nazi Party. You know, their
company was quite small in comparison to the other families
are right about in the book, but they use hundreds
(44:32):
of of of force labors and their chemical companies and
their chemical company called Bankings are I have a particularly
brutal factory foreman who abuses who you know, abuses force
labors in the most horrific ways. And you know key
Will discovered all of that. Now the Riemans, and I
(44:52):
was quite in touch often with the spokeswoman. Um, you know,
the Riemans had already commissioned a history professor to dig
into that history before the story broke. He was commissioned
years earlier. So you have their chairman, Peter Harf issued
his response. And then two months later, this massive story
(45:14):
in New York Times breaks of the Rhymans of two
Rhyman heirs for the first time ever is being on
the record with Katherine ben Holt, was the New York
Times period chief in Berlin, about how their father, Albert Ryman,
the committed Nazi, had an affair with a Jewish woman
whose father was deprayer. We deported, and and and and
and sorry have Jewish woman, a woman of Jewish with
(45:38):
Jewish roots because her father was Jewish and was murdered
in the Holocaust. M and how they have this this narrative,
this very tragic narrative which are only later found much
later found out about being the heirs of both a
you know, being descendants of both a perpetrator and a victim.
(46:00):
And they end up renaming their foundation in the name
of their murdered grandfather, Alfred Landecker and funding it in
perpetuity with two D fifty million euros, which is you know,
three hundred three D and fifty million dollars every ten years,
(46:21):
and but still being transparent about that. Their patriarchs, you know,
we're total Nazeas and and and anti Semits. And even
their great aunt was married to an s. S Man.
I mean, it's really like they were just truly a
Nazi family. And then you know Albert Ryman, their their
their father who was married to a woman but didn't
(46:41):
have children. For father's three children with this have Jewish
woman and and you know these airs end up um
as all of their cousins end up as Germany's wealthiest family.
So it's it's totally it was total bizarre, totally bizarre story,
you know. I mean, it's it's very tragic and and
(47:02):
just is surreal and tragic. I mean, I can't I
can't make it and anything else of it. Wow, thank you, Ben,
I did not I did not know that last story.
I guess from the end of the book there. Wow. Okay, um, David,
we have a unique thing here where we've just completed
our first book and it's coming on October check it out.
(47:24):
And we we know the process now of uh, cutting, cutting?
What is it killing your darlings? The expression of like
having to get rid of certain parts of the book
because they just don't happen to fit in the story
you're telling. I wonder if there's anything in your research
that you came across that would you know, just be
a story that you'd want to tell that you had
(47:44):
to take out of the book. Oh wow, it's such
a good question. I had to cut about a hundred
badges of the I end up cutting about a hundred
padges of the book. I think everything it's sort is
kind of a laments, But I think everything that I
wanted in the book ended up in it, because you know,
the hundred pages that were cut. How great editor in
the US Alexander little Field and in the UK are
(48:06):
Abella Pike, and they you know, they gave fantastic structual
feedback which allowed me to rewrite the story in a
way which made it far more slimmer and better paced.
And those hundred pages that were cut were really we're
just redundant, was redundant information. So you know, everything that
(48:27):
I wanted in there ended up being in there. I
didn't really feel that I had to cut any major darlings,
which I feel very blessed about. Congratulations, wonderful And with this,
you know, we have to we have to ask. There's
a sense of mission right to telling stories that some
(48:48):
powerful people would rather not be told. And I think
we're both very interested in the audience as well. Today.
I think we're all interested in hearing what what you
hope comes about as a result of this, of this investigation,
what you know. I saw an earlier interview, not that
(49:09):
we were stalking you too much, but saw an earlier
interview where where someone to ask you what the reaction
in Germany was like when the book came out, and
you had said, at least at that time, you had
said the press was a bit silent. Was that the case?
(49:30):
I mean, I mean the book. I mean we're talking
on April twentie The book came out on April nineteen,
so yesterday, and an interview was also from yesterday, and
you know so far, I mean, the German translation is
gonna come out May five, and we'll see. I mean,
it is an extremely fraught subject in Germany. Still, the
(49:51):
press laws in Germany are also not as free as
they are in the US. Unfortunately. Um, you know, so
it is very it is very difficult to you know
what I mean. You can report on it, but it's
all it's it's all. It's a very it's a very
fraught narrative in Germany still, of course, and so far
(50:13):
that the German press has been in silent. We'll see
what happens when the German translation comes out. Germany, as
is the US, to their massive countries, massive economies, and
they're very they're insular countries. You know, they look inward,
you know, because they're so big, they don't really need
to look at at other you know, and and Germany itself.
You know, it's not natural, per se to to to
(50:34):
take over what the English language press is is writing.
You know, you saw that with many things that happened,
like when the Built editor in chief was fired only
after Ben Smith of the of then of the New
York Times still wrote a column about his about his
you know, his sexual madrassment cases are wrong. I mean,
these were facts were known in Germany for for for
(50:56):
months and months already, you know, they were, but only
after New York Times because of course, because actual Springer,
the conglomerate that owns Built just bought political for a billion.
They were realized, Okay, our business enterts are at risk here.
You know, it's a story with wire Card. I don't
know if you followed that story that the Ft journalist
Dan McCrum reported on incredibly well, um, you know they didn't.
(51:20):
They accused FT of the German Stock Market Regulator Um.
The accus c FT of basically manipulating and Dan crum
was was sued in Germany for his reporting, you know,
until until wire Card went bankrupt and filed for insolvency
and now the CEO is in pretties on trial and
(51:41):
the CFO is missing. It was it was, you know,
prepared to be a Russian spy. I mean, this is
also story you guys should look in because it's so
it's such a good story. Den mcrumb is coming up
with his book Layer this year, and I'm sure it's
gonna make a huge class because the guys stories about
wire Card or wild so so often nothing happens in
(52:01):
Germany until stories are reported in the English language press.
But it also takes a little bit, you know for
things to land in German. You know, it's Germany's in
many ways, it's old fashioned. It's an old fashioned country
in many, many ways. Yeah, it's going, it's having your
right direction, but but you know it still has a big,
big ways to go. All right, So May five, we're
(52:22):
gonna set our set our alarms here to know, ex
keep an eye on dear Spiegel. Yeah, we've first thank
you for being so generous with your time, David, as
as you can tell and as our as our listeners
can tell as well, we agree that humanity, civilization owes
(52:48):
it to itself to be transparent about these stories, even
even if they seem to make people uncomfortable. I would say,
especially if they seem to make people uncomfortable because they're
discomfited for a reason. In with with this, uh, what
we can say is we wanted to hold off on
(53:08):
this interview until the book was out now, so so
now that the book is out in the world, you
can find Nazi Billionaires The Dark History of Germany's Wealthiest
Dynasties anywhere good books are sold. German listeners, as as
David and Matt pointed out, the German edition is coming
up May five, keep an eye on the news on
(53:30):
the other side of the pond. And with this you know,
I I know we're talking a little bit off air,
but you're already onto some new projects, is that correct? Yeah,
I'm moving to to the Middle East, moving to Tel Aviv.
To be more specific. My partner has a job. She's
the the new correspondent for German TV for Israel and
(53:53):
the Palestinian territories, and she has already moved here in
August said, I mean, can you imagine it off for
a job in journalism, then being the German Core TV
correspondent for German television in Israel and preston in territories.
I mean, I have so much respect for her. She's
she's an incredible reporter and incredible hard worker and somebody
(54:14):
who studied both Arabic and Hebrew university and just you know,
um amazed that that that that I get to be
with her, such an incredible woman. We wish her safety
just yeah, I mean yeah, just reading news from from
that region and on this other on this other side
of the world, there's a tremendous sense of you know, yeah,
(54:35):
it's dangerous, it is it is, yes, absolutely, And I'll
be covering the Middle East, the larger Middle East, um
from from from Tel Aviv. Um, still covering financial and
finance and business as usual. Okay, well, can't wait to
learn about you know, the oil money. It's gonna be exciting, yes,
(54:55):
and yeah, it's gonna be a lot of focus on
the Gulf and dude, yeah all right. Well, David, is
there a specific place that people should go to to
get your book? If you want to order it to online,
do a bookshop dot org because I support local booksellers
and independent bookstores. They need all the help they can get.
UM and you know you can find me on Twitter
(55:16):
and Instagram at David de Young. And with that, folks,
we are going to call it a day. Get the
to your local bookstore and find out more about this
very important story. Very powerful people would rather you not here. Uh.
We can't thank you enough, David, for being so generous,
(55:38):
as we said, with your time today, and we cannot
thank you enough for the herculean amount of research that
you have put into this. I I knew it was
serious when I was I was Matt and I were
lucky enough to read advanced copies. And I opened the
book and one of the first things I see are
(55:59):
this collection of maps, and I think, okay, this is
gonna be one of those things where you don't read
it straight through. I'm gonna have to go back to
some stuff, and so I broke out, broke out some
sticky notes and con track. Yeah, and we're just we're
grateful this is in the world and we can't wait
to see where this adventure takes you. But please stay
(56:20):
safe and uh and we'll talk with you soon. Thank
you very much for having me ben in, Matt. It's
really a pleasure. And as always, if you would like
to connect with us regarding ideas for a future episode,
regarding your own experience with Hidden History, we'd love to
hear from you. We try to be easy to find
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(56:43):
and if you don't like the online stuff, you don't
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(57:04):
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(57:34):
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