September 9, 2016 • 44 mins
Could your favorite sports be fixed? Join Ben, Matt and Noel for their continuing interview with author Brian Tuohy as they explore the murky world behind the sports headlines - a world comprised of illegal gambling, extortion, blackmail and organized crime.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers. Since government conspiracies, history is
riddled with unexplained events, you can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello,
welcome back to the show. My name is Matt beat
(00:21):
the Spread, Frederick, and my name is Null Boogie Down Brown.
My name has been in lieu of a nickname. I
picked up some veggie straws that bowling and you are you.
We hope that you also have a cool, gambling or
mafioso type nickname to attach yourself. I'm always a fan
(00:45):
of calling somebody two hands, Matt, two hands, Frederick, I
got them both. That just sounds so sketchy. Maddie six
hats at the same time, a number and a thing Matt,
Maddie fresh finger. I mean I'm I'm very hygienic, so
that mean well, while we while we ponder that, uh,
(01:07):
let's go ahead and catch you up the speed. If
you missed our previous episode, then stop what you're doing
and go back and listen to that first, because this
is part two of a two part series. In our
previous episode, we begin an interview with an expert on
corruption and conspiracy within the world of sports. Gentleman named
(01:31):
Brian Tooey and he's written several books. Uh. He We
were fortunate enough to get some time with him, and uh,
it was just too big for one episode. So now
we are returning and where we last left off. Can
we get like a previously on lost thing, but with
stuff they want you to know, previously on stuff they
don't want you to know. Perfect Previously we were we
(01:57):
were exploring the relationship between organized crime and organized sports,
and that's the reason we're talking. Uh. I think the
weirdest thing we learned is that I'm due to the
mob fixing boxing matches. Uh. Ultimately America became hooked on
(02:18):
cable television. Yeah, because you had to see it. You
had to see it in that moment. It was extremely
important that it was live. So I don't know, guys,
let's say, you know, let's dispense with the preamble and
get right into the uh, the the good stuff. When
we talk about the fascination that people have with with sports,
(02:44):
one of the things that that we see tremendously popular
today with the with the rise of modern technology is
the famous or infamous practice of fantasy leagues fantasy football,
for instance, Uh, So how are these fantasy league services
like Draft Kings or fan Duel altering the sports gambling market. Well,
(03:09):
according to them, they're not gambling first of all, So
they're not affecting the gambling market at all because they
have to live and breathe on that, in my opinion,
lie that they're not gambling. Um, and they've actually been
kind of busted for that. Now. Now there's this whole
upheaval really in that daily fantasy industry because a lot
of States, because their ads are so ubiguous and so
(03:33):
in your face for so long, early in last year's
football season, you know, States finally woke up and said, well,
what is this? Is this gambling? Who who's doing this?
How much money is being made? And now that they
looked into it, they said, holy cow, we kind of
missed the boat on this stuff. Um. You know, it
has changed the way people consume their sports, and really
(03:54):
sports is what's keeping television, I think, alive, because it's
the only thing that needs to be consumed alive. Everything
else you can DVR and watch it later. But sports,
if you don't watch it live, you know you're gonna
find out sooner or later before you get to come
home and watch it. You know, I'll record it and
by then you know it's too late. Anyway, the excitement
has gone on it. But daily Fantasy sports is really
(04:17):
fed into this notion that not only will people watch
the games, but they're gonna be watching it in a
new way because they're gonna have a financial stake in
these games. And that's why I think sports gambling is
so popular and why like the NFL's ratings are so high,
is because people are watching because they have money of
their own on the line and the outcome of the game,
not only on the players, but on the teams and
(04:38):
on the final score and whatever else you can bet
on within these events and without it, without the gambling end.
And it's funny because the league's know this but they
won't admit it, But without the gambling end, their ratings
and their interest level would just plummet. If it really
starts coming into perspective when you think about all of
the different sports being broadcast across so many different animals
(05:01):
at any time, about how much money is just getting
funneled in and throughout this so many games. Like I said,
I'm not a big sports guy, but it blows up
there's always some game on and everyone that is really
into it, they know exactly when their games on, and
like people will fight over the TV and bars because
there's game playing at the same exact time and it's
just you know, and there's a new ESPN spentoff channel
(05:23):
like every other week. Well, and the crazy thing is
the how dependent, like you said, these media companies are
on these sports to to feed their advertising, right. Well,
and it's not only that, but you have to remember
the Television Networks Fund of Professional Sports. You know, ESPN
(05:45):
gives the NFL nearly two billion dollars a year for
Monday Night football when they spend a hundred and ten
million dollars on every Monday Night football production just for
the rights to the game. That's before they pay any
broadcast or cameraman anything. They're paying a hundred and ten
million dollars basically, you know, big budget Hollywood movie every
(06:05):
week just to broadcast the National Football League. And you
can go through them all, I mean, the CBS funds,
the NFL, NBC funds the NFL, Fox Sports funds the
NFL and without that six billion dollars a year the
NFL gets from television, the NFL would be in trouble
if it didn't have it. And that goes the same
(06:25):
with Major League Baseball, the NBA, and all the other leagues.
They are really in many ways funded by television, and
I think that's why this idea of the league fixing
their own game isn't absurd, because they need the television
money to survive. Television needs the advertising revenue to basically
pay the leagues to you know, to afford to be
able to broadcast those games, and so everybody can make
(06:47):
a profit off it as long as the games are
entertaining and exciting, and the leagues have the very real
ability to manipulate the games while they're going on to
keep them entertaining and exciting throughout the course of the game,
so you're watching the two man owning or to the
final buzzer or into the ninth thing, because they perhaps
can manipulate these things to make sure that those exciting
(07:08):
events take place really quickly. I want to learn about
the benefits of owning a big league team, any team.
Like let's say I'm just a guy that has a
couple million dollars, I want to own a team. Why
would I want to do that? It's a good question.
First of all, they would have to let you in.
(07:28):
You can't just buy a team because you want to.
The other owners have to allow you into their little club. OK.
So just because you have the money doesn't mean you're
gonna be welcomed in with open arms. Um they have
to accept to But you know, it's interesting because some owners,
actually I believe, owned teams almost as tax right off,
and they don't care if the team wins or loses.
(07:49):
They use them as like a calling card to say, Hey,
I own this team. Why don't you guys come up
to my private box and we'll do some business while
the game is going on. And I think other especially
long time owners like guys who the guys who owned
the Bears, the McCaskey family, the Mayor's who owned the Giants,
the Runeys who own the Steelers in the NFL. They've
owned the team's really since the inception of the league,
(08:10):
and that's all they have and so it's their lifeblood,
these teams in these leagues. So you know, it's a
new The modern air owners, I think are kind of
buying into the league's because they want to prestige and
kind of the calling card that goes with owning the team.
Some monymous tax right offs and some just have had
the team so long that they know nothing else but
(08:32):
this sport or this league. And how how do those
owners then function within the league itself, like within the
n b A or the NFL. Do they have a
say in like what goes down, how everything works? Oh? Yeah,
they own it. It's their league. That's what fans I think.
Another thing they don't understand is the owners own the league.
(08:55):
It's there since their private company, and they can do
with it what they want. It doesn't matter what other
people say. Those people own it, I mean. And that's
when the proven conspiracies and sports again, that shows what
these owners can do. Back in the nineteen eighties, major
League Baseball owners were they felt losing money on their league,
and so they got together. I forget how many teams
(09:17):
that were in the league at the time, but the
thirty owners of the Major League Baseball and the commissioner
are all sat down in a room together and decided,
we're not going to pay for anybody else's free agents
this year. We're gonna all save money. We're gonna cut
salary costs, We're gonna save money. Nobody signed anybody else's
free agents, and to a man, the Major League Baseball
owners stuck to that. It didn't matter if you own
(09:38):
to the Yankees, you own the Cubs, you own the Royals,
you want the Angels. To a man, they said, we're
not going to pay for anybody else's free agents. And
that's exactly what they did. And they were Hall of
Fame guys, future Hall of famers that became free agents
that year and the following year and the year after that,
and Major League Baseball still stuck to its guns. It's
called collusion. It's this. It's really conspiracy. Guys sitting in
(09:59):
the room deciding this is what we're gonna do. It
didn't matter for the fact, winds didn't matter, affective losses,
who won the World Series, who made the playoffs. They
were there to save money and make money. And they
did it to such an extreme extent that As League
Baseball players follow stations suit him and one about three
billion dollars from them because they made it so blatantly obvious.
(10:20):
But the fact is the owners got together in the room,
made a decision and stuck to it. And they have
that sort of power and ability. Now, Brian, the one
of the interesting points that you raise in some of
your work is something that again something that will surprise
a lot of our listeners, I believe, which is, uh,
you say that the big four leagues enjoy anti trust exemptions?
(10:43):
Is that correct? Well, Major League Baseball mainly does, and
they have for a long time, basically back to the
I forgot it was like the nineteen twenties, if not
before then, Congress or some reason gave them an anti
trust exemption and all the it's been challenged a couple
of times, it's they've never lost it. So they are
(11:03):
legally allowed to be a monopoly and one of the
few because in many ways they weren't deemed to be
interstate commerce for some reason which nobody can really fully
explain today. But that's the fact of the matter is
Major League Baseball wasn't deemed to be interstate commerce, so
therefore they weren't really, you know, basically a monopoly for
(11:26):
whatever reason, and so they were given this antitrust exemption.
And you know, the NFL and the NBA and the
other leagues as well. It's kind of been a ordered
that too to a certain extent in order to negotiate
the television contracts that they have. So I mean, they're
all kind of almost legally allowed to be monopolies and
that allows them in many ways to operate in the
way they do and also gives them a lot of authority.
(11:48):
And in many ways, you know, Congress has always been
and even local governments have been very friendly with sports
teams and leagues. And that's why you see so many
you know, cities bending over backwards to build the billionaire
owners new stadiums when really tax when they shouldn't be
going to funding the new stadium because the city is
not getting really a lot of benefit of it. It's
(12:08):
the billionaire owner who is. So why isn't he forking
over the money to build himself a new stadium. We've
got that twofold here in Atlanta, where like literally the
former football stadium is right next to where they're building
the bigger, batter, newer football stadium and they're just gonna
tear the old one down and there's nothing wrong with
that at all. No, And we have that too. I mean,
we have the same thing here in Milwaukee. I mean
(12:29):
the baseball stadium, yes, was dated, but they built the
new one Miller Park right next to old County Stadium
like in the parking lot. And now we got the
same thing with Milwaukee Bucks. They have a pretty decent arena,
the Bradley Center, but yet that's not good enough for
the new owners. So they demanded a new stadium, and
for whatever reason, the people Milwaukee said, sure, okay, we'll
build you one, despite the fact you guys have more
(12:49):
enough money to build your own, And so they're gonna
build it pretty much next door to the old one too.
And it happens everywhere. I mean, the Houston Astrodome is
still standing. It actually is gonna cost more money to
the deacon instructed than it is to leave its standing
where it is right now. But yet there it sits,
and there's a new stadium pretty much right next door
for the Astros. Yeah. That's one of the one of
(13:11):
the things I've been learning as I've been following the
Atlanta Braves move to Cobb County here, and it's crazy
to see how much money from cities from counties end
up going in from taxpayers really to pay for all
these new stadiums and the stadiums. In your book, you
you mentioned stats where the stadiums, doesn't matter how new
(13:31):
they are. It doesn't seem to affect how the games
are actually played and whether you win or lose well.
And the funny thing is that it doesn't really affect
the city that they're played in. And I mean, there's
people way smarter than me, sports economists and such who
have done studies of you know, what happens when a
team leaves the city, or what happens when the team
arrives in a new city, and it doesn't really affect
(13:53):
the economy of this city at all. It doesn't really
affect the economy of the local businesses right near the
new stadium or the old stadium at all. It just seems,
you know, entertainment money gets spent on football or baseball,
or it gets spent on you know, the opera or
movies or some other form of entertainment if a team leaves,
I mean, it doesn't really help a city to have
a major league team. Yet that's always the pitch. You know,
(14:16):
you have to be a major league city to be respected,
I guess in this country, and therefore you have to
have some sort of major League team. I mean, one
of the best things I ever saw was on HBO
Sports Real Sports, and there's this whole controversy over the
Marlin Stadium in Miami. And the guy for HBO Sports
was talking to one of the big wigs for the
Marlins and he said, well, you know who gets the
(14:37):
money for ticket sales? And he's like, well, the Marlins do.
He's like, he asks, well, then you know who gets
the money for the parking, Well the Marlins do. Who
gets you know, money for when there's another event held
in the Marlin Stadium, Well the Marlins do. And basically everything,
all the money went to the Marlins. At the end,
the interview for HBO Sports said well, what are the
people in Miami get and he said, well, they get
(14:59):
Marlin Baseball equated all that money. But you know you
get you get the honor of I mean, the Miami
Marland's play here. Wow. Great, thanks, despite the fact that
you built the city out about three million dollars. Great. Thanks.
Now this is um this is a good spot for
(15:19):
us to explore, um something else, like the other side
of this earlier, when we had asked, you know, why
isn't this reported more often than we uh, you know,
we learned that there is a vested interest in the
side of mainstream media. And we also learned that maybe
(15:40):
when someone puts on their Steelers hat or their Braves
hat or something or a jersey, that they're not thinking
as critically as they could. But still, of course there
will always be skeptics. So what what do you have
to say to the people who would who would allege that, um,
(16:01):
this doesn't happen, or this is somehow exaggerated, and and
how have the Big Four reacted to allegations of fixing. Well,
they don't have to react to the allegations because nobody's
making them, really besides myself. So you know, they're kind
of even the clear there. Um, you know, I can
(16:21):
talk to fans, it's funny, even my own friends. It
took a very long time to convince them that this
was perhaps a very real situation within the major leagues,
that games were being manipulated and fixed in various ways
for various reasons. And you know, if you're a true believer,
it's like trying to tell somebody, you know, Santa Claus
doesn't exist. You know, a kids like, what do you mean?
(16:41):
You know, they almost have to get it in their
head that this is a possibility and then start watching
games with that kind of mindset and remind them that, hey, look,
this is a business. Their business is entertainment. They're trying
to entertain you. Now watch how they potentially are manipulating
the games to do that. And if you watch games
with that mindset and watch how play off series evolved
and how these storylines evolved within the media about certain
(17:04):
players and certain teams, and you kind of put all
that together, I think then it can start to sink
in that maybe there is something bigger going on behind
the scenes to make certain outcomes happen, because that's what
they're promoting, and it's amazing what they're promoting seems to
always becoming true. So I mean, I think you have
to kind of put that nugget in their brain and
you have to let it germinate and grow in there.
(17:25):
It's just it's not like you could point to a
specific example and somebody's gonna turn on a dime. Because
a lot of times I can talk to people and say, oh,
think about this game or think about that game, and
they be like yeah, yeah, yeah, and then I mentioned
something with the team they like in it where their
team might have fixed the games. Then they're like whoa, whoa,
whoa No, no, no, that no, and then I lose them.
So it has to be something that's not totally personal
(17:47):
to them and then they can kind of go along
with it. But once it becomes personal to them, then
it's a different story. And we'll pause there just for
a moment. It's time for word from our sponsor. Let's
talk about an example from pretty recent times two thousand seven,
(18:07):
the case of former NBA referee Tim Donneghie, where he
was investigated by the FBI UM for what seemed like
game fixing. We'll get into it a little bit more,
but they ultimately did not pursue those particular charges and
instead we're looking more at wire fraud, UM, other kinds
(18:30):
of fraud. But UM, just for listeners, this guy was
a referee and a lot of sports experts to this
day are pretty convinced that he was able to influence
the course of the game. And UM, there was a
gentleman you use quotes from in UM your book that
talks about how he called him Elvis, and he said
he was the master because he could make calls that
(18:52):
seemed legit but ultimately kind of guided the course of
the game, and I just want to hear your take
on this case, and and I do you think he
was able to do that and have it not be
just clear as day that he was doing it? Well,
Donny he he was I think a thirteen year veteran
of the NBA when all this started taking place, and
(19:12):
he was actually I think one of the top three
rated officials in the NBA while he was supposedly involved
in this whole betting scheme, and what people think he
was doing was basically making more calls, more follow calls,
and kinda was more obscure follow calls than the other officials,
and they just assumed he was doing his job better
(19:34):
the league supposedly, when in fact, he was kind of
doing this to influence the outcome of games, like he
was making bets on games that he officiated and winning
more often than not. Well, that's that's where the whole
gray area in the whole thing comes up, and why
he wasn't investigated for games fixing its don He claims
(19:56):
he wasn't fixing games and he wasn't really betting on
the games he officiated in he claims he was working
with this bookie he knew and giving him inside information
based on his knowledge of the other officials behavior and
how the league really operated, which goes back to my
idea of them manipulating their own games, and he was
making money that way. The book, he claims Donnie he
was pretty much outright fixing games and the only time
(20:18):
he really won money was on games Donnie he was
directly involved in. So it's kind of a he said,
he said situation, and my bet is they're both right,
and that's my guest. But the bat is is, Donnie
he would probably still be officiating today had the FBI
(20:39):
that being involved in a wire tap on some other
organized crime and investigation where one of the guys said, hey,
we have an NBA referee in our back pocket. Had
that not occurred, Donnie, he wasn't suspected at all by
the NBA for doing anything wrong. And really, I mean
there were some betters, some real heavy betters who bet
NBA exclusively kind of finding strange occurrences going on within
(21:02):
Donahue's games, But I mean, there was nothing that was
really public or anything that was really drawing a huge
interest from a lot of people into what was going on.
If it wasn't for that little flip of the tongue,
probably none of this would have come out. And that's
the scary part of it all is it could have
just happened that gone away, and nobody would have known
about it, because again my claim is that the sports
(21:25):
media that supposed to watchdog for professional sports and college
sports doesn't do nearly enough investigator reporting or really even
questioning the outcome of certain games and looking into the
potentiality for game fixing within American sports because it's again,
if the FBI can't prove it, house an investigative report,
are going to prove it, and nobody wants to hear it.
(21:45):
That's the other problem with sports and sports fans is
they don't want to hear this sort of thing. They
just want to be entertained and see these games transpire
and just be entertained by it, just like they went
to a movie or watched the TV show. That's all
they really care about, and that's what the sports mean
your panders to. So, speaking of the sports media, we've
(22:06):
talked a lot about slippery cases or murky cases for
our listeners, Brian, our our folks are gonna hang hang
us by our toes if we don't talk about FIFA,
which is one of the most recent and UH most
damning UH scandals in recent times. What we're talking about,
(22:29):
specifically is when the US Department of Justice indicted fourteen
current and former FIFA officials and associates on charges of
and I quote, rampant, systemic and deep rooted corruption following
a major inquiry by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And
(22:49):
earlier you had mentioned some of the FBI documents. UH.
And we know that we know that law enforcement has
been invested gating corruption and sports in the past. UH.
And we also know that there is very strong evidence
that US government agencies have in the past colluded with
(23:12):
organized crime in separate instances. Could could we explore briefly
why FIFA was indicted, but why these other you know,
the US based leagues have not had more investigation. That's
a good question, because to be honest, I don't think
(23:34):
anybody was more surprised than myself that it was the
Americans that basically busted FIFA for what they were doing.
I mean, it really blew my mind because there's a
lot of kind of international organizations that are being been
created based off this fixing scandals. And such that has
occurred in Europe, in the Far East and other places
(23:54):
around the world within soccer, and it doesn't seem like
there's really any Americans involved in any of It's always
kind of a European thing or South American thing. It
doesn't seem like America gets involved in. Yet, when this
whole FIFA bribery scandal kind of came out and this
corruption scandal came out, I was shocked that it was
the FBI and the Department of Justice that was the
(24:15):
one that really went after FIFA because it didn't seem
like they were interested in it at any time before
the announcement came that they're going after him. So it
really kind of surprised me. And it's not it's interesting
because you know FIFA. I think I really think the
main reason the Americans went after FIFA was because we
were mad we didn't corrupt them well enough, because I
(24:40):
think what happened was this, you know, Russia, and it
was cutter guitar however you want to pronounce it, basically
bribed FIFA to get the World Cup to come to
those countries. And nobody knows why in God's green Earth
they would want to play uh soccer tournament in the
middle of the desert in the middle of the summer
like they would in Qatar. But when they paid so
much money to FIFA wealth, that's how they got it.
(25:02):
And there were in America was in the running for
both of those World Cups and we lost out on it.
And I think that's why the investigation took places. We
kind of felt like we got screwed in a way,
and so we started investigating and looking into it. And
the fact is is nobody is really surprised if there's
corruption with FIFA that we've known. There's been corruption within
FIFA for a very very long time. It's just it's
(25:23):
really hard to go after it. And I think that's
the same reason it's hard to go after the NFL
or the NBA or that sort of thing. And it's
really hard to pick this stuff apart and root it
out because you know, sports and the like, the sports
bribe react then involves fixing games. In investigating fixing games
here in the United States, you know, is that really
(25:45):
important compared to all the other things the FBI could
be investigating and looking into. I mean, on the grand
scale of things, you know, a fixed NFL game doesn't
really mean that much to a lot of people. I mean,
you know, as opposed to what happened why the FB
I really kind of quit investigating was the War on
drugs was initiated, and terrorism came up and all these
other things that kind of took precidents over looking to
(26:08):
do a fixed college basketball game. And I think that's
the same with the FIEFA thing is for the longest time,
nobody really cared because there was bigger fish to fry,
and then suddenly this became one of the bigger fish,
so they decided to finally go after it. And I
think it's been in the news quite a bit lately. Um,
I mean in the past as well. Uh, just these
high profile doping programs that have been exposed, like the
(26:28):
most recent one was the Russian Olympic team. Um. Why
do you think that the general public and sports fans
are less willing to believe that sports fixing is taking
place when these programs are known to exist and often
be systematic and supported by officials, you know, for example
with the Russian Olympic team and people turning a blind eye.
(26:50):
And do you see any similarity or differences in doping
with the idea of sports fixing, isn't it its own
kind of sports fixing? Well, they've also known that, you know,
some of the guys who have been fixing like the
soccer matches and stuff, have been using performers dancing drugs
to get to the players. They use it as they're in,
(27:10):
They provide the performance enhancing and drugs and then basically
blackmail them once they provided it to them to get
them to alter the outcome of games. And that's one
of the kind of are in. I guess what I
mean is is like what is the base level? Like
what why do people feel like they need to believe
that everyone is on an equal playing field all the
time when we know that performance enhancing dancing drugs are
(27:35):
at play as well. You know, why is it? Sus
it's altering the outcome of games to performers enhancing drugs,
you know, I mean, we know if you look back
and we know Sammy Sylison Mark McGuire were hitting all
those home runs because they were using some sort of steroids.
We know Barry Bonds was doing the same thing, and
that's altering the outcome of numerous games. Hundreds of games
were altered because all of these players, those three and
(27:57):
many many more for using performance enhancing drugs in some way,
shape or form. So I mean, you know, you look
at like you just take baseball. I mean, how many games,
how many you know, playoffs, how many World series? How
many outcomes were changed because some other athletes were cheating
by using drugs that they shouldn't have been using. And
how many today the NFL players are using drugs that
(28:20):
they shouldn't be using. And how many games has that
changed the outcome of I mean, and that's that's I
think kind of getting your question is I mean, you know,
people say, oh, you know, games aren't being fixed, that
can't be happening. Yet at the same time, well, if
these guys are using illegal by the league standards, illegal
performance enhancing drugs to play better, to be faster, stronger,
jump further, score more you know, runs, score more touchdowns,
(28:43):
whatever it is that's altering the outcome of a game.
That's a manipulated fixed game in some way, shape or form,
I mean, isn't it. I mean, it's not the legit game.
It's not clean athletes against clean athletes doing their best
to see who wins. There's some cheating going on involved
in it's I guess it's just a matter of you know,
a personal opinion of what your scale of cheating you're
willing to accept or not accept. So we have a
(29:07):
couple of specific examples that we wanted to ask you about,
and Matt, you have one with the UFC, right, Oh, yeah,
I was just reading Vanderley Silva, you know, a former
Pride champion for the UFC. For a time, he was
alleging that he has or he says at least that
he has proof that the UFC fixes fights, and I
(29:30):
just wanted to see if you had seen anything or
heard anything with evidence to that statement. Well, I had
heard about Silva saying that. Um, I've obviously seen what
his evidence is. But would it shocked me in any way,
shape or form. No, Because if you look at boxing
in a history of boxing and you see how incredibly
corrupt boxing was, the UFC operates in exactly the same way.
(29:53):
I mean boxing historically, there's a guy named Primo Carnera.
Carnara was a heavyweight champion fact the hundred years ago.
But the fact of the matter is he was a
constructive organized crime. He never fought in a legitimate fight,
except for one time when the mobsters thought he would win.
He lost. But they fixed every fight he fought in
(30:13):
all the way to and including the heavyweight Championship of
the World. They fixed every fight for him to win,
and then once he won, they butt heavily against him
in the next fight, had him fight a real contender.
They made a bunch of money because he lost, and
they just let him go and he went to rott
and he actually wound up in professional wrestling. But I
mean the thing, the UFC doesn't have that ability to
(30:35):
control the manipulate fights. I think it is ludicrous because again,
you look at boxing and you can point a hundred
and fifty years of boxing and see all sorts of corruption,
all sorts of fixing, all sorts of the things that
Silver was a legend, and it wouldn't surprise me, but
it will probably shock the hell out of a lot
of fans because they think, again, they live up to
those cliches, are gonna go out and try their best,
(30:57):
and they trained so hard and they're gonna, you know,
do the or you know, live again, live up to
all the cliches. And I just don't see why people
think the UFC is clean when they know historically you
can see corruption of boxing from top to bottom. Just
to stay on the UFC for a second, it's fascinating
to me because it is one of the most popular
(31:17):
emerging sport forms that has come out in you know,
the past couple of decades and I and you know,
when you see it as an organization being sold for
four billion dollars and then you just think that's just
representative of the clean money, the money that's on the surface.
You know, what they can make with pay per view
and with with fight selling tickets and all that stuff
(31:38):
and merch it's just crazy to think about the money
that surrounds it in the black market. Yeah. Well, also
with the UFC two is you know, they used to
have like things like the Fight of the Night bonus,
which they would have whatever, like six fights on the
card for a particular night, and yet they would guarantee
like fifty dollars to whoever whichever match was declared in
(31:58):
the Fight of the night. Now, if you're like one
of the preliminary fights and you're only getting paid a
few thousand dollars for the prelimp fight, wouldn't you maybe
go to the guy you're fighting and say, hey, look
we can split fifty grand. If we're the quote unquote
fight of the night, why don't we go out there
and give them one heck of a show. You know,
maybe you know the first round, you win, the second round,
(32:20):
I win, in the third round, we'll fight for real
and see who wins this thing. But if we put
on a good enough performance, we're going to get some
extra money. And I mean, those are the little ways
that a league can manipulate their own events, but do
so without really dictating what happens, you know what I mean.
They don't have to have that direct you lose, you
win type of thing. They can just put little things
(32:41):
out there. They can just tweak things enough that you
get a better and more exciting event than perhaps you
would have if everything was on the level. It's a
great point. So, Brian, one of the things that we've
learned in the in the course of exploring your work
and in this interview, is that this is not a
(33:04):
victimless crime. You said it earlier in the show, and
we just want to re emphasize that because, as you said,
the money that people spend, even on a street level
is funneling upward into an institutionalized system that is involved
in drug running, arms trafficking, racketeering, loan sharking, prostitution as well,
(33:27):
which brings us to which brings us to a relatively
personal question. Do you or have you ever felt that
your life was in danger or threatened as a result
of your investigations into these scandals. No, I've never really
felt personally threatened, like physically threatened by anything that I've researched. Um,
(33:50):
but I know, like career wise, but what I research
isn't the best best road to take. I mean, I've
dealt with, you know, the likes of ESPN, and I've
dealt with Sports Illustrated and a lot of other media outlets,
and I know my name has got to be on
certain lists within each one of those organizations, the media organizations,
(34:13):
that's who I deal with. And I'm sure I'm on
the NFL's radar and the NBA's radar in some other
places as well. And I mean I've seen, I mean,
just from a personal aspect, I know I've been kind
of censored by the media. I mean, when I released
Larceny Games through my publisher, which was Ferrellhouse, Larceny Games
was based on over four d FBI files that I
(34:34):
was the first one to obtain. No one ever gone
after those files until I got them, and I wrote
this whole book based on those files, which revealed literally
Hall of Fame athletes accused by the FBI of either
betting on their own sport or even betting on games
in which they play, which should be huge news. And
when the book was released, ESPN, Yahoo, Sports, Sports, Illustrated,
(34:56):
HBO Sports, sixty Minutes, and a few others all contacted
by publisher and wanted to copy the book to review it.
And they all got the book and not one of
them did anything with the book whatsoever. Nobody reviewed it,
Nobody said this is the worst book ever written. Nobody
followed up on any of the information that I had uncovered.
(35:17):
Nobody did anything within the sports media regarding this book
except the New York Post. And the New York Post
ran a story based off of one of the files
I had uncovered, which said that nearly eighties, members of
the New York Knicks were shaving points is a favorite
to their cocaine dealer, and they made it kind of
a backpage thing, and that went viral. It was funny
because the author who wrote the piece of New York
(35:40):
Post sent me a text like a seventh third he said, oh,
it's online now, and like a half hour later said, oh,
you know, the Sports Illustrated picked up on this little
post and it went viral. And it's amazing because you
can look online now. You can go to Google and
you know search, you know, New York Knicks, shaving points,
cocaine dealer, and you'll see that article or you know,
a link to that article on all sorts of outlets
(36:01):
except ESPN. ESPN never touched it because the ESPN is
the primary broadcast partner of the National Basketball Association and
they just simply wouldn't cover the story. Despite the fact
that it's like thirty years old, they still wouldn't cover
it because of the association between the league and the network.
And I mean, I've felt that pushback and many other
aspects of my little writing career here and investigating fixed games,
(36:25):
because the major sports leagues and the major sports media
outlets are really intertwined and they don't want this sort
of information getting out there. Yeah, and just to drop
a sidebar in here, as we're wrapping this up. We're
big fans off your work on Vice Sports, which which
(36:46):
we thought it was a very good thing to see
this message spreading to other places, and we would like
for our listeners who are interested in this too, you
come check out your work in some other venues or
we do a section sometimes called further reading. Uh, where
(37:08):
would you point interested audience members to learn more about
this phenomenon? You mean besides my own work, your own
work as well. We have larceny games, uh, the Fixes
in and we also have a season in the Abyss.
Is that correct? Yeah, those are the three books that
kind of regarding the subject to sports and corruption. UM. Otherwise,
(37:31):
think go my website, which, like you said earlier, was
the fixes in dot net um writing I did before.
You can find some of it on the sports on
earth dot com and he said Vice Sports UM has
it on their website as well. Another guy who's really
there's a couple of things you can check out to
finished older things. UM. This guy by the name of
Declin Hill. He's really the prime investigator into match fixing
(37:53):
and corruption within soccer, and Declan Hill is he wrote
a book called I think it is simply called The
Fix and it involved him really getting involved in getting
up close and personal with the guys who are fixing
soccer matches, and it's a great work um as well
on the subject. And the last thing here, Brian, for
all of these sports fans listening that are concerned about
(38:17):
this stuff and kind of maybe for the first time
really realizing how how rampant fixing is, is there anything
we can do. I think the only way to influence
a sport or sports league is to not watch. And
that's the hardest thing to do if you're a fan,
because I think the only thing that really affects the
(38:38):
owners and the leagues themselves is money, and if they're
rating drop and they sense that things aren't going their
way financially, then they'll change things. Because I think one
of the reasons Major League Baseball is somewhat and I
won't say a lot, but somewhat gotten better at like
drug testing than their steroids within the game is buried
(38:59):
by us because Barry Bonds was such a jackass when
you broke Hankharin's record, and you broke the Yell season
long home run record, that fans kind of rebelled against
him because they realized that even if the sports media,
the hallowed Baseball writers of America wouldn't come out and
say this guy's using steroids. Fans realized this guy at
on the level, and I think they kind of rebelled
(39:21):
and kind of rebelled against baseball at that time, and
that did cause some influence within Major League Baseball to say, oh,
you know what, maybe we should try to fix this
problem because the fans aren't happy. And if they're not happy,
they're not coming to games, they're not watching games, and
we're not going to make as much money. So I
think the only way to really affect the league, to
get them to change the way you might want them
to change, is to affect him in their pocketbook. And
(39:43):
unfortunately the only way to do that is to not
attend to games and not watch the stuff on television
because that's the only thing they know. Man, I can't
thank you enough for coming on the show and hanging out,
you guys having me. I'm kind of sad that interview ended. Yeah,
(40:08):
I wish we were still there talking with Brian learning
about all these things, like I kind of want to
learn so much to where I can start making money gambling. Careful, buddy, careful,
what why, Because you got real nice fingers. I'd hate
to see him smashed by a hammer. Hate fresh fingers
to be an ironic nickname. Maybe that's why it was foreshadowing. No,
(40:31):
but seriously, Brian was such a nice dude and knowledgeable
and really generous with his time and willingness to talk
about this stuff, and I was kind of uh. I
was interested in the fact that he does not feel
particularly threatened or you know, intimidated by, you know, some
of these organizations. But at the same time, it's probably
(40:51):
not the most popular opinion to have if you want
to get a job writing for Sports Illustrated. He did.
He did make a really good point where he said,
you know, like just heard earlier that he didn't feel
physically threatened, but he did feel like his career was
he felt as though he were getting black balled at
certain points. So we hope that you have enjoyed this episode,
(41:15):
ladies and gentlemen. We know that for some of our
die hard sports fans out there, it might seem like
your team is an exception to the rule. We don't
have hard proof of all of this happening, right, but
if you want more information, the books that Noel mentioned
in the previous episode and then we mentioned throughout the
(41:37):
interview are great reads and they're worth your time because
this guy is a really talented writer as well. Yes,
and I think the concept that Brian puts out about
point shaving uh and the point spread really really makes it,
at least for me a little easier to see how
this kind of stuff could happen kind of under the
noses of everyone to where they're small things, you know,
(41:59):
little death by thousand cuts, rather than one guy going
in and throwing a whole game overtly to where you
can just tell watching your television. It's definitely something to
think about. And I don't know about you, ladies and gentlemen.
I don't know about you, Matt Noel, but I'm not
gonna be able to look at large sporting events the
same way. Yeah. I mean, if I ever watch a
(42:20):
second football game, it's gonna be really difficult for me
to you know, enjoy it and the way that I
did the first one that I watched. Okay, what you
were watching with an ulterior motive? To be fair, what
are you getting at, man? I don't have ulterior motives,
I am. What you see is what you get. That's
my nickname. You know, what you see is what you
get brown They you know what they say about me,
(42:42):
I'm an open book in a meadow on a sunny day.
Nobody says that about you. Everybody says that except for you. Guys.
The problem is there's nobody around. The meadow is just
completely empty. It's just Ben's book open in the middle
of it. Okay, al right, guys. We don't all have
to agree on our analogies for each other or our comparisons,
(43:02):
but we do agree that if you like this show,
you are in luck because we make so much other
stuff as well. You can see, uh, you can see
videos that we do live or I guess not live,
prerecorded can can? I don't want to say dead um?
On our Facebook and our Twitter page. We are a
(43:23):
conspiracy stuff at both of those, and we have an
Instagram conspiracy stuff show. Sorry, conspiracy stuff. Let's taken furthermore.
If you'd like to check out every audio podcast we've
ever done, you can visit our website. Stuff they don't
want you to know? Dot Com? What is it? Stuff
(43:43):
they don't want you to know? Dot Com? Okay, I
got it. It's a lot it's notthful, it is, but
it's worth your time. Everything we've ever done is there,
and now it's time for the most important part of
the show, really, where we ask you for your ideas.
This is your show as well, and our ideas come
from listeners like you. Specifically you listening to this Nope, nope,
(44:07):
not the person next to you. I'm not talking about them.
I'm not talking about a vague you. Specifically, your ideas.
We want to hear them. So, what are some of
the topics that come to your mind as you're listening
to this episode that are surrounding sports fixing that maybe
we didn't hit on, that we could cover further in
the future, or maybe there's something in here you just
(44:28):
want to hear more about. Let us know you can
write to us directly. We are conspiracy at how stuff
works dot com.
From UFOs to psychic powers. Since government conspiracies, history is
riddled with unexplained events, you can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello,
welcome back to the show. My name is Matt beat
(00:21):
the Spread, Frederick, and my name is Null Boogie Down Brown.
My name has been in lieu of a nickname. I
picked up some veggie straws that bowling and you are you.
We hope that you also have a cool, gambling or
mafioso type nickname to attach yourself. I'm always a fan
(00:45):
of calling somebody two hands, Matt, two hands, Frederick, I
got them both. That just sounds so sketchy. Maddie six
hats at the same time, a number and a thing Matt,
Maddie fresh finger. I mean I'm I'm very hygienic, so
that mean well, while we while we ponder that, uh,
(01:07):
let's go ahead and catch you up the speed. If
you missed our previous episode, then stop what you're doing
and go back and listen to that first, because this
is part two of a two part series. In our
previous episode, we begin an interview with an expert on
corruption and conspiracy within the world of sports. Gentleman named
(01:31):
Brian Tooey and he's written several books. Uh. He We
were fortunate enough to get some time with him, and uh,
it was just too big for one episode. So now
we are returning and where we last left off. Can
we get like a previously on lost thing, but with
stuff they want you to know, previously on stuff they
don't want you to know. Perfect Previously we were we
(01:57):
were exploring the relationship between organized crime and organized sports,
and that's the reason we're talking. Uh. I think the
weirdest thing we learned is that I'm due to the
mob fixing boxing matches. Uh. Ultimately America became hooked on
(02:18):
cable television. Yeah, because you had to see it. You
had to see it in that moment. It was extremely
important that it was live. So I don't know, guys,
let's say, you know, let's dispense with the preamble and
get right into the uh, the the good stuff. When
we talk about the fascination that people have with with sports,
(02:44):
one of the things that that we see tremendously popular
today with the with the rise of modern technology is
the famous or infamous practice of fantasy leagues fantasy football,
for instance, Uh, So how are these fantasy league services
like Draft Kings or fan Duel altering the sports gambling market. Well,
(03:09):
according to them, they're not gambling first of all, So
they're not affecting the gambling market at all because they
have to live and breathe on that, in my opinion,
lie that they're not gambling. Um, and they've actually been
kind of busted for that. Now. Now there's this whole
upheaval really in that daily fantasy industry because a lot
of States, because their ads are so ubiguous and so
(03:33):
in your face for so long, early in last year's
football season, you know, States finally woke up and said, well,
what is this? Is this gambling? Who who's doing this?
How much money is being made? And now that they
looked into it, they said, holy cow, we kind of
missed the boat on this stuff. Um. You know, it
has changed the way people consume their sports, and really
(03:54):
sports is what's keeping television, I think, alive, because it's
the only thing that needs to be consumed alive. Everything
else you can DVR and watch it later. But sports,
if you don't watch it live, you know you're gonna
find out sooner or later before you get to come
home and watch it. You know, I'll record it and
by then you know it's too late. Anyway, the excitement
has gone on it. But daily Fantasy sports is really
(04:17):
fed into this notion that not only will people watch
the games, but they're gonna be watching it in a
new way because they're gonna have a financial stake in
these games. And that's why I think sports gambling is
so popular and why like the NFL's ratings are so high,
is because people are watching because they have money of
their own on the line and the outcome of the game,
not only on the players, but on the teams and
(04:38):
on the final score and whatever else you can bet
on within these events and without it, without the gambling end.
And it's funny because the league's know this but they
won't admit it, But without the gambling end, their ratings
and their interest level would just plummet. If it really
starts coming into perspective when you think about all of
the different sports being broadcast across so many different animals
(05:01):
at any time, about how much money is just getting
funneled in and throughout this so many games. Like I said,
I'm not a big sports guy, but it blows up
there's always some game on and everyone that is really
into it, they know exactly when their games on, and
like people will fight over the TV and bars because
there's game playing at the same exact time and it's
just you know, and there's a new ESPN spentoff channel
(05:23):
like every other week. Well, and the crazy thing is
the how dependent, like you said, these media companies are
on these sports to to feed their advertising, right. Well,
and it's not only that, but you have to remember
the Television Networks Fund of Professional Sports. You know, ESPN
(05:45):
gives the NFL nearly two billion dollars a year for
Monday Night football when they spend a hundred and ten
million dollars on every Monday Night football production just for
the rights to the game. That's before they pay any
broadcast or cameraman anything. They're paying a hundred and ten
million dollars basically, you know, big budget Hollywood movie every
(06:05):
week just to broadcast the National Football League. And you
can go through them all, I mean, the CBS funds,
the NFL, NBC funds the NFL, Fox Sports funds the
NFL and without that six billion dollars a year the
NFL gets from television, the NFL would be in trouble
if it didn't have it. And that goes the same
(06:25):
with Major League Baseball, the NBA, and all the other leagues.
They are really in many ways funded by television, and
I think that's why this idea of the league fixing
their own game isn't absurd, because they need the television
money to survive. Television needs the advertising revenue to basically
pay the leagues to you know, to afford to be
able to broadcast those games, and so everybody can make
(06:47):
a profit off it as long as the games are
entertaining and exciting, and the leagues have the very real
ability to manipulate the games while they're going on to
keep them entertaining and exciting throughout the course of the game,
so you're watching the two man owning or to the
final buzzer or into the ninth thing, because they perhaps
can manipulate these things to make sure that those exciting
(07:08):
events take place really quickly. I want to learn about
the benefits of owning a big league team, any team.
Like let's say I'm just a guy that has a
couple million dollars, I want to own a team. Why
would I want to do that? It's a good question.
First of all, they would have to let you in.
(07:28):
You can't just buy a team because you want to.
The other owners have to allow you into their little club. OK.
So just because you have the money doesn't mean you're
gonna be welcomed in with open arms. Um they have
to accept to But you know, it's interesting because some owners,
actually I believe, owned teams almost as tax right off,
and they don't care if the team wins or loses.
(07:49):
They use them as like a calling card to say, Hey,
I own this team. Why don't you guys come up
to my private box and we'll do some business while
the game is going on. And I think other especially
long time owners like guys who the guys who owned
the Bears, the McCaskey family, the Mayor's who owned the Giants,
the Runeys who own the Steelers in the NFL. They've
owned the team's really since the inception of the league,
(08:10):
and that's all they have and so it's their lifeblood,
these teams in these leagues. So you know, it's a
new The modern air owners, I think are kind of
buying into the league's because they want to prestige and
kind of the calling card that goes with owning the team.
Some monymous tax right offs and some just have had
the team so long that they know nothing else but
(08:32):
this sport or this league. And how how do those
owners then function within the league itself, like within the
n b A or the NFL. Do they have a
say in like what goes down, how everything works? Oh? Yeah,
they own it. It's their league. That's what fans I think.
Another thing they don't understand is the owners own the league.
(08:55):
It's there since their private company, and they can do
with it what they want. It doesn't matter what other
people say. Those people own it, I mean. And that's
when the proven conspiracies and sports again, that shows what
these owners can do. Back in the nineteen eighties, major
League Baseball owners were they felt losing money on their league,
and so they got together. I forget how many teams
(09:17):
that were in the league at the time, but the
thirty owners of the Major League Baseball and the commissioner
are all sat down in a room together and decided,
we're not going to pay for anybody else's free agents
this year. We're gonna all save money. We're gonna cut
salary costs, We're gonna save money. Nobody signed anybody else's
free agents, and to a man, the Major League Baseball
owners stuck to that. It didn't matter if you own
(09:38):
to the Yankees, you own the Cubs, you own the Royals,
you want the Angels. To a man, they said, we're
not going to pay for anybody else's free agents. And
that's exactly what they did. And they were Hall of
Fame guys, future Hall of famers that became free agents
that year and the following year and the year after that,
and Major League Baseball still stuck to its guns. It's
called collusion. It's this. It's really conspiracy. Guys sitting in
(09:59):
the room deciding this is what we're gonna do. It
didn't matter for the fact, winds didn't matter, affective losses,
who won the World Series, who made the playoffs. They
were there to save money and make money. And they
did it to such an extreme extent that As League
Baseball players follow stations suit him and one about three
billion dollars from them because they made it so blatantly obvious.
(10:20):
But the fact is the owners got together in the room,
made a decision and stuck to it. And they have
that sort of power and ability. Now, Brian, the one
of the interesting points that you raise in some of
your work is something that again something that will surprise
a lot of our listeners, I believe, which is, uh,
you say that the big four leagues enjoy anti trust exemptions?
(10:43):
Is that correct? Well, Major League Baseball mainly does, and
they have for a long time, basically back to the
I forgot it was like the nineteen twenties, if not
before then, Congress or some reason gave them an anti
trust exemption and all the it's been challenged a couple
of times, it's they've never lost it. So they are
(11:03):
legally allowed to be a monopoly and one of the
few because in many ways they weren't deemed to be
interstate commerce for some reason which nobody can really fully
explain today. But that's the fact of the matter is
Major League Baseball wasn't deemed to be interstate commerce, so
therefore they weren't really, you know, basically a monopoly for
(11:26):
whatever reason, and so they were given this antitrust exemption.
And you know, the NFL and the NBA and the
other leagues as well. It's kind of been a ordered
that too to a certain extent in order to negotiate
the television contracts that they have. So I mean, they're
all kind of almost legally allowed to be monopolies and
that allows them in many ways to operate in the
way they do and also gives them a lot of authority.
(11:48):
And in many ways, you know, Congress has always been
and even local governments have been very friendly with sports
teams and leagues. And that's why you see so many
you know, cities bending over backwards to build the billionaire
owners new stadiums when really tax when they shouldn't be
going to funding the new stadium because the city is
not getting really a lot of benefit of it. It's
(12:08):
the billionaire owner who is. So why isn't he forking
over the money to build himself a new stadium. We've
got that twofold here in Atlanta, where like literally the
former football stadium is right next to where they're building
the bigger, batter, newer football stadium and they're just gonna
tear the old one down and there's nothing wrong with
that at all. No, And we have that too. I mean,
we have the same thing here in Milwaukee. I mean
(12:29):
the baseball stadium, yes, was dated, but they built the
new one Miller Park right next to old County Stadium
like in the parking lot. And now we got the
same thing with Milwaukee Bucks. They have a pretty decent arena,
the Bradley Center, but yet that's not good enough for
the new owners. So they demanded a new stadium, and
for whatever reason, the people Milwaukee said, sure, okay, we'll
build you one, despite the fact you guys have more
(12:49):
enough money to build your own, And so they're gonna
build it pretty much next door to the old one too.
And it happens everywhere. I mean, the Houston Astrodome is
still standing. It actually is gonna cost more money to
the deacon instructed than it is to leave its standing
where it is right now. But yet there it sits,
and there's a new stadium pretty much right next door
for the Astros. Yeah. That's one of the one of
(13:11):
the things I've been learning as I've been following the
Atlanta Braves move to Cobb County here, and it's crazy
to see how much money from cities from counties end
up going in from taxpayers really to pay for all
these new stadiums and the stadiums. In your book, you
you mentioned stats where the stadiums, doesn't matter how new
(13:31):
they are. It doesn't seem to affect how the games
are actually played and whether you win or lose well.
And the funny thing is that it doesn't really affect
the city that they're played in. And I mean, there's
people way smarter than me, sports economists and such who
have done studies of you know, what happens when a
team leaves the city, or what happens when the team
arrives in a new city, and it doesn't really affect
(13:53):
the economy of this city at all. It doesn't really
affect the economy of the local businesses right near the
new stadium or the old stadium at all. It just seems,
you know, entertainment money gets spent on football or baseball,
or it gets spent on you know, the opera or
movies or some other form of entertainment if a team leaves,
I mean, it doesn't really help a city to have
a major league team. Yet that's always the pitch. You know,
(14:16):
you have to be a major league city to be respected,
I guess in this country, and therefore you have to
have some sort of major League team. I mean, one
of the best things I ever saw was on HBO
Sports Real Sports, and there's this whole controversy over the
Marlin Stadium in Miami. And the guy for HBO Sports
was talking to one of the big wigs for the
Marlins and he said, well, you know who gets the
(14:37):
money for ticket sales? And he's like, well, the Marlins do.
He's like, he asks, well, then you know who gets
the money for the parking, Well the Marlins do. Who
gets you know, money for when there's another event held
in the Marlin Stadium, Well the Marlins do. And basically everything,
all the money went to the Marlins. At the end,
the interview for HBO Sports said well, what are the
people in Miami get and he said, well, they get
(14:59):
Marlin Baseball equated all that money. But you know you
get you get the honor of I mean, the Miami
Marland's play here. Wow. Great, thanks, despite the fact that
you built the city out about three million dollars. Great. Thanks.
Now this is um this is a good spot for
(15:19):
us to explore, um something else, like the other side
of this earlier, when we had asked, you know, why
isn't this reported more often than we uh, you know,
we learned that there is a vested interest in the
side of mainstream media. And we also learned that maybe
(15:40):
when someone puts on their Steelers hat or their Braves
hat or something or a jersey, that they're not thinking
as critically as they could. But still, of course there
will always be skeptics. So what what do you have
to say to the people who would who would allege that, um,
(16:01):
this doesn't happen, or this is somehow exaggerated, and and
how have the Big Four reacted to allegations of fixing. Well,
they don't have to react to the allegations because nobody's
making them, really besides myself. So you know, they're kind
of even the clear there. Um, you know, I can
(16:21):
talk to fans, it's funny, even my own friends. It
took a very long time to convince them that this
was perhaps a very real situation within the major leagues,
that games were being manipulated and fixed in various ways
for various reasons. And you know, if you're a true believer,
it's like trying to tell somebody, you know, Santa Claus
doesn't exist. You know, a kids like, what do you mean?
(16:41):
You know, they almost have to get it in their
head that this is a possibility and then start watching
games with that kind of mindset and remind them that, hey, look,
this is a business. Their business is entertainment. They're trying
to entertain you. Now watch how they potentially are manipulating
the games to do that. And if you watch games
with that mindset and watch how play off series evolved
and how these storylines evolved within the media about certain
(17:04):
players and certain teams, and you kind of put all
that together, I think then it can start to sink
in that maybe there is something bigger going on behind
the scenes to make certain outcomes happen, because that's what
they're promoting, and it's amazing what they're promoting seems to
always becoming true. So I mean, I think you have
to kind of put that nugget in their brain and
you have to let it germinate and grow in there.
(17:25):
It's just it's not like you could point to a
specific example and somebody's gonna turn on a dime. Because
a lot of times I can talk to people and say, oh,
think about this game or think about that game, and
they be like yeah, yeah, yeah, and then I mentioned
something with the team they like in it where their
team might have fixed the games. Then they're like whoa, whoa,
whoa No, no, no, that no, and then I lose them.
So it has to be something that's not totally personal
(17:47):
to them and then they can kind of go along
with it. But once it becomes personal to them, then
it's a different story. And we'll pause there just for
a moment. It's time for word from our sponsor. Let's
talk about an example from pretty recent times two thousand seven,
(18:07):
the case of former NBA referee Tim Donneghie, where he
was investigated by the FBI UM for what seemed like
game fixing. We'll get into it a little bit more,
but they ultimately did not pursue those particular charges and
instead we're looking more at wire fraud, UM, other kinds
(18:30):
of fraud. But UM, just for listeners, this guy was
a referee and a lot of sports experts to this
day are pretty convinced that he was able to influence
the course of the game. And UM, there was a
gentleman you use quotes from in UM your book that
talks about how he called him Elvis, and he said
he was the master because he could make calls that
(18:52):
seemed legit but ultimately kind of guided the course of
the game, and I just want to hear your take
on this case, and and I do you think he
was able to do that and have it not be
just clear as day that he was doing it? Well,
Donny he he was I think a thirteen year veteran
of the NBA when all this started taking place, and
(19:12):
he was actually I think one of the top three
rated officials in the NBA while he was supposedly involved
in this whole betting scheme, and what people think he
was doing was basically making more calls, more follow calls,
and kinda was more obscure follow calls than the other officials,
and they just assumed he was doing his job better
(19:34):
the league supposedly, when in fact, he was kind of
doing this to influence the outcome of games, like he
was making bets on games that he officiated and winning
more often than not. Well, that's that's where the whole
gray area in the whole thing comes up, and why
he wasn't investigated for games fixing its don He claims
(19:56):
he wasn't fixing games and he wasn't really betting on
the games he officiated in he claims he was working
with this bookie he knew and giving him inside information
based on his knowledge of the other officials behavior and
how the league really operated, which goes back to my
idea of them manipulating their own games, and he was
making money that way. The book, he claims Donnie he
was pretty much outright fixing games and the only time
(20:18):
he really won money was on games Donnie he was
directly involved in. So it's kind of a he said,
he said situation, and my bet is they're both right,
and that's my guest. But the bat is is, Donnie
he would probably still be officiating today had the FBI
(20:39):
that being involved in a wire tap on some other
organized crime and investigation where one of the guys said, hey,
we have an NBA referee in our back pocket. Had
that not occurred, Donnie, he wasn't suspected at all by
the NBA for doing anything wrong. And really, I mean
there were some betters, some real heavy betters who bet
NBA exclusively kind of finding strange occurrences going on within
(21:02):
Donahue's games, But I mean, there was nothing that was
really public or anything that was really drawing a huge
interest from a lot of people into what was going on.
If it wasn't for that little flip of the tongue,
probably none of this would have come out. And that's
the scary part of it all is it could have
just happened that gone away, and nobody would have known
about it, because again my claim is that the sports
(21:25):
media that supposed to watchdog for professional sports and college
sports doesn't do nearly enough investigator reporting or really even
questioning the outcome of certain games and looking into the
potentiality for game fixing within American sports because it's again,
if the FBI can't prove it, house an investigative report,
are going to prove it, and nobody wants to hear it.
(21:45):
That's the other problem with sports and sports fans is
they don't want to hear this sort of thing. They
just want to be entertained and see these games transpire
and just be entertained by it, just like they went
to a movie or watched the TV show. That's all
they really care about, and that's what the sports mean
your panders to. So, speaking of the sports media, we've
(22:06):
talked a lot about slippery cases or murky cases for
our listeners, Brian, our our folks are gonna hang hang
us by our toes if we don't talk about FIFA,
which is one of the most recent and UH most
damning UH scandals in recent times. What we're talking about,
(22:29):
specifically is when the US Department of Justice indicted fourteen
current and former FIFA officials and associates on charges of
and I quote, rampant, systemic and deep rooted corruption following
a major inquiry by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And
(22:49):
earlier you had mentioned some of the FBI documents. UH.
And we know that we know that law enforcement has
been invested gating corruption and sports in the past. UH.
And we also know that there is very strong evidence
that US government agencies have in the past colluded with
(23:12):
organized crime in separate instances. Could could we explore briefly
why FIFA was indicted, but why these other you know,
the US based leagues have not had more investigation. That's
a good question, because to be honest, I don't think
(23:34):
anybody was more surprised than myself that it was the
Americans that basically busted FIFA for what they were doing.
I mean, it really blew my mind because there's a
lot of kind of international organizations that are being been
created based off this fixing scandals. And such that has
occurred in Europe, in the Far East and other places
(23:54):
around the world within soccer, and it doesn't seem like
there's really any Americans involved in any of It's always
kind of a European thing or South American thing. It
doesn't seem like America gets involved in. Yet, when this
whole FIFA bribery scandal kind of came out and this
corruption scandal came out, I was shocked that it was
the FBI and the Department of Justice that was the
(24:15):
one that really went after FIFA because it didn't seem
like they were interested in it at any time before
the announcement came that they're going after him. So it
really kind of surprised me. And it's not it's interesting
because you know FIFA. I think I really think the
main reason the Americans went after FIFA was because we
were mad we didn't corrupt them well enough, because I
(24:40):
think what happened was this, you know, Russia, and it
was cutter guitar however you want to pronounce it, basically
bribed FIFA to get the World Cup to come to
those countries. And nobody knows why in God's green Earth
they would want to play uh soccer tournament in the
middle of the desert in the middle of the summer
like they would in Qatar. But when they paid so
much money to FIFA wealth, that's how they got it.
(25:02):
And there were in America was in the running for
both of those World Cups and we lost out on it.
And I think that's why the investigation took places. We
kind of felt like we got screwed in a way,
and so we started investigating and looking into it. And
the fact is is nobody is really surprised if there's
corruption with FIFA that we've known. There's been corruption within
FIFA for a very very long time. It's just it's
(25:23):
really hard to go after it. And I think that's
the same reason it's hard to go after the NFL
or the NBA or that sort of thing. And it's
really hard to pick this stuff apart and root it
out because you know, sports and the like, the sports
bribe react then involves fixing games. In investigating fixing games
here in the United States, you know, is that really
(25:45):
important compared to all the other things the FBI could
be investigating and looking into. I mean, on the grand
scale of things, you know, a fixed NFL game doesn't
really mean that much to a lot of people. I mean,
you know, as opposed to what happened why the FB
I really kind of quit investigating was the War on
drugs was initiated, and terrorism came up and all these
other things that kind of took precidents over looking to
(26:08):
do a fixed college basketball game. And I think that's
the same with the FIEFA thing is for the longest time,
nobody really cared because there was bigger fish to fry,
and then suddenly this became one of the bigger fish,
so they decided to finally go after it. And I
think it's been in the news quite a bit lately. Um,
I mean in the past as well. Uh, just these
high profile doping programs that have been exposed, like the
(26:28):
most recent one was the Russian Olympic team. Um. Why
do you think that the general public and sports fans
are less willing to believe that sports fixing is taking
place when these programs are known to exist and often
be systematic and supported by officials, you know, for example
with the Russian Olympic team and people turning a blind eye.
(26:50):
And do you see any similarity or differences in doping
with the idea of sports fixing, isn't it its own
kind of sports fixing? Well, they've also known that, you know,
some of the guys who have been fixing like the
soccer matches and stuff, have been using performers dancing drugs
to get to the players. They use it as they're in,
(27:10):
They provide the performance enhancing and drugs and then basically
blackmail them once they provided it to them to get
them to alter the outcome of games. And that's one
of the kind of are in. I guess what I
mean is is like what is the base level? Like
what why do people feel like they need to believe
that everyone is on an equal playing field all the
time when we know that performance enhancing dancing drugs are
(27:35):
at play as well. You know, why is it? Sus
it's altering the outcome of games to performers enhancing drugs,
you know, I mean, we know if you look back
and we know Sammy Sylison Mark McGuire were hitting all
those home runs because they were using some sort of steroids.
We know Barry Bonds was doing the same thing, and
that's altering the outcome of numerous games. Hundreds of games
were altered because all of these players, those three and
(27:57):
many many more for using performance enhancing drugs in some way,
shape or form. So I mean, you know, you look
at like you just take baseball. I mean, how many games,
how many you know, playoffs, how many World series? How
many outcomes were changed because some other athletes were cheating
by using drugs that they shouldn't have been using. And
how many today the NFL players are using drugs that
(28:20):
they shouldn't be using. And how many games has that
changed the outcome of I mean, and that's that's I
think kind of getting your question is I mean, you know,
people say, oh, you know, games aren't being fixed, that
can't be happening. Yet at the same time, well, if
these guys are using illegal by the league standards, illegal
performance enhancing drugs to play better, to be faster, stronger,
jump further, score more you know, runs, score more touchdowns,
(28:43):
whatever it is that's altering the outcome of a game.
That's a manipulated fixed game in some way, shape or form,
I mean, isn't it. I mean, it's not the legit game.
It's not clean athletes against clean athletes doing their best
to see who wins. There's some cheating going on involved
in it's I guess it's just a matter of you know,
a personal opinion of what your scale of cheating you're
willing to accept or not accept. So we have a
(29:07):
couple of specific examples that we wanted to ask you about,
and Matt, you have one with the UFC, right, Oh, yeah,
I was just reading Vanderley Silva, you know, a former
Pride champion for the UFC. For a time, he was
alleging that he has or he says at least that
he has proof that the UFC fixes fights, and I
(29:30):
just wanted to see if you had seen anything or
heard anything with evidence to that statement. Well, I had
heard about Silva saying that. Um, I've obviously seen what
his evidence is. But would it shocked me in any way,
shape or form. No, Because if you look at boxing
in a history of boxing and you see how incredibly
corrupt boxing was, the UFC operates in exactly the same way.
(29:53):
I mean boxing historically, there's a guy named Primo Carnera.
Carnara was a heavyweight champion fact the hundred years ago.
But the fact of the matter is he was a
constructive organized crime. He never fought in a legitimate fight,
except for one time when the mobsters thought he would win.
He lost. But they fixed every fight he fought in
(30:13):
all the way to and including the heavyweight Championship of
the World. They fixed every fight for him to win,
and then once he won, they butt heavily against him
in the next fight, had him fight a real contender.
They made a bunch of money because he lost, and
they just let him go and he went to rott
and he actually wound up in professional wrestling. But I
mean the thing, the UFC doesn't have that ability to
(30:35):
control the manipulate fights. I think it is ludicrous because again,
you look at boxing and you can point a hundred
and fifty years of boxing and see all sorts of corruption,
all sorts of fixing, all sorts of the things that
Silver was a legend, and it wouldn't surprise me, but
it will probably shock the hell out of a lot
of fans because they think, again, they live up to
those cliches, are gonna go out and try their best,
(30:57):
and they trained so hard and they're gonna, you know,
do the or you know, live again, live up to
all the cliches. And I just don't see why people
think the UFC is clean when they know historically you
can see corruption of boxing from top to bottom. Just
to stay on the UFC for a second, it's fascinating
to me because it is one of the most popular
(31:17):
emerging sport forms that has come out in you know,
the past couple of decades and I and you know,
when you see it as an organization being sold for
four billion dollars and then you just think that's just
representative of the clean money, the money that's on the surface.
You know, what they can make with pay per view
and with with fight selling tickets and all that stuff
(31:38):
and merch it's just crazy to think about the money
that surrounds it in the black market. Yeah. Well, also
with the UFC two is you know, they used to
have like things like the Fight of the Night bonus,
which they would have whatever, like six fights on the
card for a particular night, and yet they would guarantee
like fifty dollars to whoever whichever match was declared in
(31:58):
the Fight of the night. Now, if you're like one
of the preliminary fights and you're only getting paid a
few thousand dollars for the prelimp fight, wouldn't you maybe
go to the guy you're fighting and say, hey, look
we can split fifty grand. If we're the quote unquote
fight of the night, why don't we go out there
and give them one heck of a show. You know,
maybe you know the first round, you win, the second round,
(32:20):
I win, in the third round, we'll fight for real
and see who wins this thing. But if we put
on a good enough performance, we're going to get some
extra money. And I mean, those are the little ways
that a league can manipulate their own events, but do
so without really dictating what happens, you know what I mean.
They don't have to have that direct you lose, you
win type of thing. They can just put little things
(32:41):
out there. They can just tweak things enough that you
get a better and more exciting event than perhaps you
would have if everything was on the level. It's a
great point. So, Brian, one of the things that we've
learned in the in the course of exploring your work
and in this interview, is that this is not a
(33:04):
victimless crime. You said it earlier in the show, and
we just want to re emphasize that because, as you said,
the money that people spend, even on a street level
is funneling upward into an institutionalized system that is involved
in drug running, arms trafficking, racketeering, loan sharking, prostitution as well,
(33:27):
which brings us to which brings us to a relatively
personal question. Do you or have you ever felt that
your life was in danger or threatened as a result
of your investigations into these scandals. No, I've never really
felt personally threatened, like physically threatened by anything that I've researched. Um,
(33:50):
but I know, like career wise, but what I research
isn't the best best road to take. I mean, I've
dealt with, you know, the likes of ESPN, and I've
dealt with Sports Illustrated and a lot of other media outlets,
and I know my name has got to be on
certain lists within each one of those organizations, the media organizations,
(34:13):
that's who I deal with. And I'm sure I'm on
the NFL's radar and the NBA's radar in some other
places as well. And I mean I've seen, I mean,
just from a personal aspect, I know I've been kind
of censored by the media. I mean, when I released
Larceny Games through my publisher, which was Ferrellhouse, Larceny Games
was based on over four d FBI files that I
(34:34):
was the first one to obtain. No one ever gone
after those files until I got them, and I wrote
this whole book based on those files, which revealed literally
Hall of Fame athletes accused by the FBI of either
betting on their own sport or even betting on games
in which they play, which should be huge news. And
when the book was released, ESPN, Yahoo, Sports, Sports, Illustrated,
(34:56):
HBO Sports, sixty Minutes, and a few others all contacted
by publisher and wanted to copy the book to review it.
And they all got the book and not one of
them did anything with the book whatsoever. Nobody reviewed it,
Nobody said this is the worst book ever written. Nobody
followed up on any of the information that I had uncovered.
(35:17):
Nobody did anything within the sports media regarding this book
except the New York Post. And the New York Post
ran a story based off of one of the files
I had uncovered, which said that nearly eighties, members of
the New York Knicks were shaving points is a favorite
to their cocaine dealer, and they made it kind of
a backpage thing, and that went viral. It was funny
because the author who wrote the piece of New York
(35:40):
Post sent me a text like a seventh third he said, oh,
it's online now, and like a half hour later said, oh,
you know, the Sports Illustrated picked up on this little
post and it went viral. And it's amazing because you
can look online now. You can go to Google and
you know search, you know, New York Knicks, shaving points,
cocaine dealer, and you'll see that article or you know,
a link to that article on all sorts of outlets
(36:01):
except ESPN. ESPN never touched it because the ESPN is
the primary broadcast partner of the National Basketball Association and
they just simply wouldn't cover the story. Despite the fact
that it's like thirty years old, they still wouldn't cover
it because of the association between the league and the network.
And I mean, I've felt that pushback and many other
aspects of my little writing career here and investigating fixed games,
(36:25):
because the major sports leagues and the major sports media
outlets are really intertwined and they don't want this sort
of information getting out there. Yeah, and just to drop
a sidebar in here, as we're wrapping this up. We're
big fans off your work on Vice Sports, which which
(36:46):
we thought it was a very good thing to see
this message spreading to other places, and we would like
for our listeners who are interested in this too, you
come check out your work in some other venues or
we do a section sometimes called further reading. Uh, where
(37:08):
would you point interested audience members to learn more about
this phenomenon? You mean besides my own work, your own
work as well. We have larceny games, uh, the Fixes
in and we also have a season in the Abyss.
Is that correct? Yeah, those are the three books that
kind of regarding the subject to sports and corruption. UM. Otherwise,
(37:31):
think go my website, which, like you said earlier, was
the fixes in dot net um writing I did before.
You can find some of it on the sports on
earth dot com and he said Vice Sports UM has
it on their website as well. Another guy who's really
there's a couple of things you can check out to
finished older things. UM. This guy by the name of
Declin Hill. He's really the prime investigator into match fixing
(37:53):
and corruption within soccer, and Declan Hill is he wrote
a book called I think it is simply called The
Fix and it involved him really getting involved in getting
up close and personal with the guys who are fixing
soccer matches, and it's a great work um as well
on the subject. And the last thing here, Brian, for
all of these sports fans listening that are concerned about
(38:17):
this stuff and kind of maybe for the first time
really realizing how how rampant fixing is, is there anything
we can do. I think the only way to influence
a sport or sports league is to not watch. And
that's the hardest thing to do if you're a fan,
because I think the only thing that really affects the
(38:38):
owners and the leagues themselves is money, and if they're
rating drop and they sense that things aren't going their
way financially, then they'll change things. Because I think one
of the reasons Major League Baseball is somewhat and I
won't say a lot, but somewhat gotten better at like
drug testing than their steroids within the game is buried
(38:59):
by us because Barry Bonds was such a jackass when
you broke Hankharin's record, and you broke the Yell season
long home run record, that fans kind of rebelled against
him because they realized that even if the sports media,
the hallowed Baseball writers of America wouldn't come out and
say this guy's using steroids. Fans realized this guy at
on the level, and I think they kind of rebelled
(39:21):
and kind of rebelled against baseball at that time, and
that did cause some influence within Major League Baseball to say, oh,
you know what, maybe we should try to fix this
problem because the fans aren't happy. And if they're not happy,
they're not coming to games, they're not watching games, and
we're not going to make as much money. So I
think the only way to really affect the league, to
get them to change the way you might want them
to change, is to affect him in their pocketbook. And
(39:43):
unfortunately the only way to do that is to not
attend to games and not watch the stuff on television
because that's the only thing they know. Man, I can't
thank you enough for coming on the show and hanging out,
you guys having me. I'm kind of sad that interview ended. Yeah,
(40:08):
I wish we were still there talking with Brian learning
about all these things, like I kind of want to
learn so much to where I can start making money gambling. Careful, buddy, careful,
what why, Because you got real nice fingers. I'd hate
to see him smashed by a hammer. Hate fresh fingers
to be an ironic nickname. Maybe that's why it was foreshadowing. No,
(40:31):
but seriously, Brian was such a nice dude and knowledgeable
and really generous with his time and willingness to talk
about this stuff, and I was kind of uh. I
was interested in the fact that he does not feel
particularly threatened or you know, intimidated by, you know, some
of these organizations. But at the same time, it's probably
(40:51):
not the most popular opinion to have if you want
to get a job writing for Sports Illustrated. He did.
He did make a really good point where he said,
you know, like just heard earlier that he didn't feel
physically threatened, but he did feel like his career was
he felt as though he were getting black balled at
certain points. So we hope that you have enjoyed this episode,
(41:15):
ladies and gentlemen. We know that for some of our
die hard sports fans out there, it might seem like
your team is an exception to the rule. We don't
have hard proof of all of this happening, right, but
if you want more information, the books that Noel mentioned
in the previous episode and then we mentioned throughout the
(41:37):
interview are great reads and they're worth your time because
this guy is a really talented writer as well. Yes,
and I think the concept that Brian puts out about
point shaving uh and the point spread really really makes it,
at least for me a little easier to see how
this kind of stuff could happen kind of under the
noses of everyone to where they're small things, you know,
(41:59):
little death by thousand cuts, rather than one guy going
in and throwing a whole game overtly to where you
can just tell watching your television. It's definitely something to
think about. And I don't know about you, ladies and gentlemen.
I don't know about you, Matt Noel, but I'm not
gonna be able to look at large sporting events the
same way. Yeah. I mean, if I ever watch a
(42:20):
second football game, it's gonna be really difficult for me
to you know, enjoy it and the way that I
did the first one that I watched. Okay, what you
were watching with an ulterior motive? To be fair, what
are you getting at, man? I don't have ulterior motives,
I am. What you see is what you get. That's
my nickname. You know, what you see is what you
get brown They you know what they say about me,
(42:42):
I'm an open book in a meadow on a sunny day.
Nobody says that about you. Everybody says that except for you. Guys.
The problem is there's nobody around. The meadow is just
completely empty. It's just Ben's book open in the middle
of it. Okay, al right, guys. We don't all have
to agree on our analogies for each other or our comparisons,
(43:02):
but we do agree that if you like this show,
you are in luck because we make so much other
stuff as well. You can see, uh, you can see
videos that we do live or I guess not live,
prerecorded can can? I don't want to say dead um?
On our Facebook and our Twitter page. We are a
(43:23):
conspiracy stuff at both of those, and we have an
Instagram conspiracy stuff show. Sorry, conspiracy stuff. Let's taken furthermore.
If you'd like to check out every audio podcast we've
ever done, you can visit our website. Stuff they don't
want you to know? Dot Com? What is it? Stuff
(43:43):
they don't want you to know? Dot Com? Okay, I
got it. It's a lot it's notthful, it is, but
it's worth your time. Everything we've ever done is there,
and now it's time for the most important part of
the show, really, where we ask you for your ideas.
This is your show as well, and our ideas come
from listeners like you. Specifically you listening to this Nope, nope,
(44:07):
not the person next to you. I'm not talking about them.
I'm not talking about a vague you. Specifically, your ideas.
We want to hear them. So, what are some of
the topics that come to your mind as you're listening
to this episode that are surrounding sports fixing that maybe
we didn't hit on, that we could cover further in
the future, or maybe there's something in here you just
(44:28):
want to hear more about. Let us know you can
write to us directly. We are conspiracy at how stuff
works dot com.
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Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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