October 6, 2021 • 46 mins
Imagine you've just seen a UFO. A few days later, mysterious men appear on your doorstep in anachronistic black suits, cryptically warning you: if you tell anyone what you saw, there may be consequences down the road. This is the story of the Men In Black, one of the strangest tales in the world of UFOlogy.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is They called me Ben.
We are joined today with our returning super producer Seth
Nicholas Johnson. Most importantly, you are you. You are here,
and that makes this the stuff they don't want you
to know. This is a good one, folks. This is
classic old school stuff they don't want you to know.
These are conspiracies. We're not stretching the term and we're
(00:48):
finding an answer. So let's let's paint a picture real quick, Seth,
if we could get get a little evening out in
the woods kind of vibe there perfect. So imagine you're
camping and it's late at night. You're near the river,
maybe on an isolated stretch of woods. The sky above
(01:09):
you as shining, steep, it's endless, and then it happens.
Something appears, something faster than a plane, closer than a star.
It hovers, it moves and impossible ways. It's got a
number of lights and unfamiliar shape and you're holding your
phone fumbling to to try to press record. You get
just a few seconds of kind of shaky footage before
(01:30):
the thing ghost on you, and you might say, Okay,
I'm a skeptical person or I'm already a true believer
in everything. X files, sign me up. Whatever happens, you've
just seen your UFO. The story doesn't in there, because
no matter what you do. The next day, you get
on your door. Two men are standing on your porch.
(01:50):
They're dressed in black, kind of nondescript, slightly outdated suits.
Behind them, you see maybe an older model car idling
on the street. They look like they could be out
of a Black the White film from the fifties or sixties.
May we come in? Asked them? In calling you by name,
You've got a tone that lets you know this isn't
really a question. You're startled, you step back, you open
(02:12):
the door because you're taught to, you know, comply with authority. Boom,
you've just met the men in black. That's about how
the story goes, right, Yeah, you've met the men in black,
So don't blake me. What was there is now gone
black suits with the black ray bands on the shadow
moving silence guard against extraterrestrial violence? Wow, did you have
(02:36):
that locked and loaded? Okay, okay, okay. Yeah. My favorite
line is that the title held by me M I
B means what you think you saw, you did not see. Dude.
This is uh one of my favorite I don't know
themes or motifs within the UFO lore space. These guys,
(02:58):
It's just they can body so many different things. Whether
they're you know, at least the stories you'll read, whether
they're actually people who are showing up as a part
of the government, or they are a part of the
UFO itself, whatever you saw, whatever that extraterrestrial intelligence is,
(03:20):
or some combination of the two. Uh, and a lot
of times. I mean it was popularized through the movie
Men in Black. But the concept of some kind of
gadgetry that can force you to not remember what just happened,
it's I love it. The little toothbrush looking thing. Yeah,
(03:43):
here are the facts. So this concept, this idea of
men in Black, what we just described, it's like you said, man,
it's one of the most popular pieces of conspiratorial UFO
folklore Noel. As you pointed out, it's referenced in countless
works of fiction that those are the real lyrics to
the song for the first Men in Black? Right? Is
(04:06):
it the first one? Yeah? I think I think he's
just called the Men in Black rap? Right, and now
it was just called men in Black? Like wait, is
it a Stevie Wonder sample? I think it's Send Me
Forget Me Nuts, but it's HEREcom the Man in But
Will Smith was very fond of doing that for his movies,
like There's a Wild Wild West, which was also Stevie
Wonder situation. You know, our good friend Linkston from My
(04:28):
MoMA told me had this thing recently where he's talking
about because Stevie Wonder reminds me of this man. I think,
you know, we're going apparently well. In this episode they
talked about this conspiracy theory that Stevie Wonder actually is cited,
that he can actually see, and Felonious Monk went in,
oh my god, that concept. That's like, that's like a
(04:54):
gag from a comic, I really broad comedy. I can't
remember what it is, but it's like someone's trying to
prove that someone is sited. It's so they throw an
object that in knowing that they're gonna like if they
can see, they'll they'll catch it. But instead of just
hits him in the head and knocks them over and
they're like, oh my bad, I guess you really are. Yeah. Yeah.
I won't stay on the Stevie Winner thing too long,
(05:15):
but I just have to say, anybody who's listening to
this show who isn't listening to my mama told me,
do yourself a favor and incorporate that into your pod
verse because it is uh, it is wonderful. Yeah, Langston
is super cool. We had him on the show and
I've been tuning into his podcast ever since. I would
(05:36):
love to check to see if they have an episode
on the Men in Black, because you know, like we've
like you can tell easily from just our conversation here,
fellow conspiracy realists. Men in Black is now a mainstream concept.
And it's a mainstream concept because it feels like it
(05:58):
could be based in ground things. The US government and
world governments have sent people to find civilians. Right, if
the FBI is investigating a case, then they will come
and question you if you happen to be in the
neighborhood or involved or something like that. Right, detectives will come.
(06:18):
So it's it's not impossible nor implausible for government agents
to show up at somebody's door. The difference here is
that it just it. It asked you to go one
step further and say, well, they're also if they are
also investigating you know, murders or crimes or big heist
or something, then they would investigate UFOs as well. So
(06:43):
what we're going to do today is not spend too
much time with the facts, because we found some facts
and they are pretty crazy. Instead, we're going to attempt
to solve this story, or at least solve how the
question of how men and black became mainstream and popular culture.
So it's very early on. But here's where it gets crazy. Uh,
(07:04):
it's a little bit of a cold shower. I hope
nobody gets mad at us here. But as conspiracies go,
it's mostly false. That too soon. No, No, I think
it's I think I think it's very respectful, Ben unrespectable
to just get you know, get that badger out of
the bag. But you know, but it's it's that image
(07:25):
of these types of people can be associated with all
kinds of government intrigue, right, I mean, like the g men,
for example, the men in black. It really is just
kind of like the uniform of shadowy government operatives, right exactly.
It's so common. It's a trope that even shows up
in that wonderful book American Gods by Neil Gaiman, The
(07:46):
Men in Black in there. And that's not a spoiler,
but it just it feels reasonable. Right. Uh. The origin
of this story can be traced back to July of
nineteen seven. And we have a story for you. It's
pretty cinematic. Let's see who wants to do the honors.
I can get you started here. I'll do sound effects.
(08:08):
Oh sweet bootleg fully sound effects. All right, We're just
gonna go as written here. Here's this fellow. His name's Harold,
Harold Doll and he and his son Charlie Charles, they're
they're hanging out there were there, There were their family
dog and there. And they're on there near the eastern
(08:33):
shore of this place called Maury Island. It's a conservation
area and their own a mission. Now this is in
Puget Sound. And they see something like a lot of
the stories of people who see men in black, Charlie
and Harold see something and the dog I'm as suing right,
the dog must have seen something or smelled something, and
(08:56):
they see what they describe as six donut shaped objects
hovering about a half a mile above the boat that
they are currently writing upon. So Doll claimed that he
watched one of these doughnutty disky things fluttered down to
Earth and then disintegrate, shooting off kind of like I
(09:17):
don't know, like space shrapnel or something like these fragments,
some of which hit his beloved dog and and ended
the dog's life sadly. Doll reportedly also took some photos
of these objects and showed them to a supervisor, a
man by the name of Fred krisman Um, who later
(09:37):
visited the scene himself and saw another strange object in
the sky, maybe the same one. He personally thought that
it was some kind of aircraft. Yeah, he didn't immediately
go star trek right with this, but Doll would later
go on to say he had he had an interesting
(09:57):
brunch date. The next morning. He was visited by a
mysterious man dressed and you guessed it black. And the
guy was not the like the sinister minium black type
of dude you hear about today in most fiction. Instead,
he was he was kind of cool. At first. He
he took Doll out for breakfast. He's like, hey, wait,
(10:18):
do you what's your position on eggs or bagels or whatever.
So these guys go and they grab some food together,
and this man who remains unnamed today appears to know
exactly what Doll has seen and experienced, and he knows
a lot of detail about it, and at one point
he cryptically warns Doll, you know, don't tell anybody about this,
(10:41):
don't talk about it. His specific quote, per Doll was
what I have said is proof to you that I
know a great deal more about this experience of yours
than you will want to believe. United. Yeah, right, And
it's it's one of those turns because at first, like
it's nice town, you got here, Oh yeah, so you
(11:02):
work in conservation over you know, like with the islands
and the Puget Sound. And then and then he just
drops the bomb. Yeah, a little birdie told me named Fred,
the guy that you told his friend wasn't a wasn't
a men in black whistle blow? Well, uh, maybe not
quite yet. But the US government investigates this incident, and
(11:26):
it's part of something that you can see, you can
see described in a memo called Project Saucer, and they
concluded that these guys were not mistaken, nor had they
seen anything strange. Instead, the FEDS argued they were making
this up. It was a hoax. At the very least,
(11:49):
it was a prank. So the they say, okay, this report,
we're on that island and the Puget Sound occurred just
a couple of days after this guy named Kenneth are
an old different guy claimed to see multiple crescent shaped
craft floating above Mount Rainier. So there's somebody else who
has seen said they saw a UFO in a nearby
(12:14):
and just a few days ago. This story generated a
ton of regional interest and I got a lot of
national coverage. So according to this memo, these two other guys,
Chrisman and Dahl, might have had a financial motive to
their story because they immediately tried to sell it to
a magazine based in Chicago. And this magazine did contact
(12:41):
the government and they contacted that guy from earlier, Kenneth Arnold,
who had seen some crescent shaped craft. So this Kenneth
Arnold guy in this pilot from Nined Airlines, a guy
named Captain and Mill J. Smith. They traveled out to Tacoma,
and they're gonna take a look at the evidence themselves.
So they're gonna talk to these guys, and you're gonna
look at the boat, the boat itself, to see if
(13:04):
there's any damage or if you know, like Null described,
there were any fragments of alien providence. Well, yeah, if
there's significant shrapnel to kill a dog, but then likely
there's damage to the boat of some kind, right, just likely,
not necessarily, but yeah, let's let's get some actual evidence
(13:26):
to this thing. And by the way, Smith also had
some time in the UFO spotlight himself because he reported
seeing some disc shaped objects um hovering over Boise, Idaho,
not terribly long in the past. On the fourth of
July in fact, and while he was into coma Um,
Arnold contacted two Army intelligence officers who helped him investigate
(13:48):
the claim um. The men met in secret at the
Winthrop Hotel, where dol Um produced some samples of the
the garments that he said came from the risk Um.
Two officers left the next day on a b for
Hamilton's Field, California, taking some of those fragments with them
(14:09):
to analyze further. Yeah, that makes sense. We got hard evidence, right,
That's the thing missing from so many UFOs sightings. So
there is a strange twist here they're playing. Never makes
it to Hamilton's Field. Instead, it crashes. There are four
people aboard this plane. Both of those officers who are
(14:31):
taking these fragments for analysis, they die in the crash.
The other two passengers, a crew chief and someone described
only as a hitchhiker, parachuted the safety This hitchhiker was
probably also a member of the military who needed to
get down to California for one reason or another. But
if you believe there's something to miss the fact that
(14:54):
this plane crashed, it doesn't look good for the official story, right.
And after the crash, newspapers and these wire services around
Tacoma started getting these anonymous phone calls that said, like
dark Faller or craft has been purposely shocked from the
air with a twenty millimeter cannon. You know, sounded like
(15:17):
Ben Kingsley when he was doing the Mandarin in Iron
Man three. You will never see me coming, you know,
speaking of which, no spoilers, but if anyone hasn't seen Shane,
it's so good. I think it might be my favorite
sort of more standalone Marvel movie. But that character in
a weird way makes a makes an appearances. I didn't
(15:42):
know you wanted. I didn't know you were going to
go see it. I will go see it with you
if I would see it again with you anytime. I
went with my kid, and even she loved it. And
she's not a huge movie fans. She's more into like
serialized stuff and like manga and things. But um, yes,
we we both loved it. And by the way, first
time seeing an atmost Dolby um Prisonation and it's game
changingly great, like the sound um and the picture of
(16:05):
really fantastic. And I sound like an old person, but
I think it's relatively new and we we only recently
just got one here in Atlanta. Um, but really really cool.
Oh where is it? It's the mat the Madison Yards
AMC Theater. They have a Dolby Atmos theater. It's it's
more expensive. It's like almost like three D prices, but
absolutely worth it and uh screw three D. This is
like this is the way, Matt, you want to go
(16:26):
with us? Okay, for sure, I'm I'm mulled awesome. Let
us know if you want to go to the movies
with us. Uh, what what we should be watching? Uh? Conspiracy?
I heart radio dot com. So here's the deal. When
the news comes out with these these anonymous phone calls,
the story of this crash goes around. Papers are reporting
(16:49):
on a possible conspiracy. They're not saying anything definitive, but
they're kind of darkly hinting that this plane may have
been destroyed because of the aigments aboard. The government investigates
the plane crash, investigates the accusations against it, and in
a stunning conclusion, finds no indication foul play. Instead, there
(17:14):
was a type of mechanical failure. Yeah, sure, sure right.
It's tough. It's tough because of the you know, the
timing of the tragedy. But at the same time, on
the same day that playing crash, something was going on
with Doll and Crispin. What was it? Will tell you
After a word from our sponsor and we're back. What's
(17:42):
that song? Uh? The cracks begin to show. Do you
guys know the song I'm talking about? Is it m
F Doom does dub Steps song? Apparently Dumb Step Alliance?
Is that it? I don't know the song at all,
but it definitely says. The cracks beget to show quite
a few times. Alright, yes, we'll go with that one song,
(18:07):
dub Step bend By. The Freestyles have a number of
interesting pursuits outside of work. Uh, dubstep. I don't know
if that's one of them. I just like that song.
I think if it's the right song. But anyway, the
cracks begin to show in in this painful segue. The
cracks begin to show in Darling Christman's story. The truth
(18:27):
may be beginning to come out. Yeah. On the same
day that this plane went down, both Doll and Chrisman,
who took Captain Smith the one of these fellows here
to see the boat that, you know, the one that
had allegedly been damaged where the dog was killed. Uh,
where these fragments actually impacted things. And Smith was kind
(18:51):
of like, all right, I'm not necessarily seeing anything here
that's out of the ordinary. Uh, doesn't look like maybe
there's that much damage, he later told investigators, while he
could see recent repairs that have been done on the
boat itself, like somebody blankly these guys had fixed a
couple dings or holes or fixed in particular the windshield
(19:14):
and the lights it didn't look like there was a
lot of damage, at least damage that was caused by
falling shrapnel or shrapnel that was exploded. Yeah. So Smith
is basically walking around going all right, man, I I
can see beat up boats at home. You know, there's
another kicker here. Later, under question, both of these guys,
(19:38):
Harold Dahl and Fred Crispin, reverse their stories. They say,
you know what, g men, this was all a hoax.
This was all a hocus focus on our part, hoaxes
pocas is on our part. Uh, the I think about
the at this point, they they're now caught up in
potentially being investigated for the deaths of some some military officials.
(20:04):
They yeah, that's a good point, Matt. So the fragments
that they had presented a proof of this encounter were,
it turns out, rocks they had found on the island.
They had hoped to sort of judge their story up
a bit by having those fragments when they you know,
(20:24):
when they spoke to that magazine in Chicago. So a
couple of things happened there. Right. If you are more
of a true believer in government cover ups of UFOs,
then this questioning was a way for the government to
force them to change their story and participate in a
(20:45):
cover up. But then, you know, if you're more on
the skeptical end, of course you're gonna say, well, if
it's a B. S story, it's probably not going to
hold up when the Army and the FBI is quizzing
you to make sure you've you're consistent. Still didn't really
matter at this point because that that match, that spark
(21:05):
of speculation had already been thrown onto the powder keg
of cultural concern. And this is amid the massive UFO
craze of the nineteen forties. It created the folklore we
know today, and we can follow it. We can trace
this evolution in American culture. We can find the rise
(21:26):
for the men in Black. It didn't happen right like,
it didn't happen while this was all going down. It
took about a decade for an author named Gray Barker
to talk about dolls Men in Black story in a
book called I Love the title. I wouldn't see you
guys think about this then knew too much about flying sauces.
(21:49):
I love it, Ben, But for for me, when I
look at the cover, yeah, it's it's always they knew
too much about flying saucers. That's the part. Yeah, okay,
so it's nine. A lot of stuff has happened, right.
This is almost a decade later, So by then the
(22:12):
government considered Doll's story completely debunked. Um case closed, at
least if you believe the official reports. But this whole
idea of these kind of like you know, spooky, shadowy
government agents was a little too fascinating and intriguing to
not catch on with with the public. Um Barker played
(22:34):
a pivotal role in this himself, as his book connects
the dots between dolls story about a quote man in
a black suit with another story from a guy named
Albert K. Bender, who claimed that three men dressed in
a similar way visited him back in nineteen fifty three.
Oh yeah, Benders. Interesting, let's spend some time on him.
(22:55):
So before this is the this is the fascinating fact here,
fellow conspiracy realists. Before Barker's book they knew too much
about flying saucers hit the press. It is enormously difficult
to find references in print to something we would call
(23:16):
the men in black, and only a few people who
are subscribed to UFO centered newsletters had ever heard of
this guy, Albert K. Bender. But as the years went by,
more and more people claimed to have encountered Men in Black,
and the story evolved. In some cases, people who had
(23:40):
had a UFO sighting in the past later revised or
expanded their story to say they had also encountered the
Men in Black. Similar to how like the the number
of people who claim that they were in the crowd
during famous assassinations only seems to grow every year. Right, Uh,
(24:02):
this may be partially trick of memory at some point.
It may just be because they want to have a
good story or it. Maybe again, if we're being fair here,
maybe because some of these people had sightings and they
were afraid to talk about that aspect of it. Maybe
originally the Men in Black didn't have any like superpowers.
(24:24):
They weren't aliens, blah blah blah. They were probably just
FBI agents Molder and Scully hitting the bricks. Let's see
what the heck is going on in Tacoma. Cue the
theme music if we could, you know what I mean, Well,
don't something like queue something like the theme music. But yeah,
not sign at all. That's very well, that's that's fine
(24:48):
as long as we don't get to suit. You know,
I think I thought it worked. I thought it was good.
But but now that the story evolves, as people are
playing this game of telephone and embellishing with their own details,
of their own interpretations, these FBI agents start to not
be entirely human and you start hearing that their speeches
(25:09):
still did that they use outdated phrases, that somehow they
look off. Their complexions might glow with unnatural pallor they
might have a strangeenus in their eyes, and they they
would use anachronisms and speech, you know, like um, they
would Maybe I'm just making things up here, but picture
(25:30):
older words that aren't usually in use today, like um,
part of me seem to have some rhubob on your
trousers or pantaloons maybe, or you know what I mean,
maybe they say automobile instead of car. Little things like that.
That's what people are claiming. Uh, and this this is interesting.
(25:50):
He's trying to think of a good comparison. You guys
remember the film Dark City. Oh yeah, that's so good.
I rewatched it. There's actually there's a new thing coming
out in the Dark City universe. I think about the
TV show. Yeah, but yeah, but if you picture the
way like the supernatural description of the men in Black,
(26:11):
picture the something like those uh antagonists in Dark City. Anyway,
So nineteen sixty two, a few years later, Vendor writes
his own book, Matt, you want to give us the title?
I like the way you did it. Mine sounded like
eighteen hundreds villain vaguely trans Atlantic accents. So let's go
(26:32):
with yours. I like whisper Man here. Okay, well, I'm
not gonna do whisper Man for this one. It's just
this one is a little more straightforward. It's called Flying
Saucers and the Three Men, which is either very simplistic
or very sinister, right, It just doesn't mean. I feel
like I could have gone back, you know, and and
(26:52):
revise that a bit. But it's fine. It's fine. And
this he's description of this encounter sort of sets the
precedent for all those supernatural elements that become so common
in later years. We've got we've got some quotes here
that are just perfect. They're perfect. And the weird who
(27:15):
wants to do the honors, I'll give you a couple here,
so there there. This is this is a quote. This
I think you can read about this from history dot com.
Is that where I saw this. You should be able
to find the quote in a couple of different places. Okay, okay, yeah,
you can find this is what I'm saying. I'm we're
not making this up. In the book, he writes that
(27:38):
there were three guys the three men quote floated about
a foot off the floor. Okay, so we got levitation.
Uh check, awesome. They looked like clergymen, but they wore
hats similar to the Humburg style. So again we're talking
about guys who seem out of time but kind of
(27:59):
like clergymen, but they're also floating cool. Their faces were
not clearly discernible, for the hats partially hid and shaded them.
The eyes of all three figures suddenly lit up like
a flashlight bulbs, and they seem to burn into my
very soul, as the pains above my eyes became almost unbearable.
(28:24):
Very very creative, Yeah, you know, very very good use
of language, well written. Feels like something out of a
sci fi novel. Well it's for me, it's it's horror.
It's horror. This is like horror. Writing of the monster
that you're encountering, you know, and this. He also says
that they have a very interesting conversation. These guys who
(28:46):
visit him say, all right, Mr Bender, we're not humans,
We are aliens. We appear human because we kidnap earth
people and we wear their bodies as disguises. Saucey comes
up later in Dark City spoiler, and Bender maintains this
(29:06):
version of the story for the rest of his life
until he passes away in two thousand two. The first question,
why are they telling him this? They show up, They're
like bird who was mind with their scanner powers if
anybody remembers that film. And then they say, we wear
the flesh of your dad. Don't say anything about this
(29:34):
or the previous thing. Just be quiet and we are
going to leave. Also, is there a Debty's nearby? We've
heard great things. Well, it's it's very strange how it's
The Men in Black film combines Bender's version of Men
in Black in the creature like the the extra trest
(29:56):
real that lands you remember that the farmer that turns
that it becomes a skin walker essential essentially puts on
the skin of a human played by it's played by
Vincent din Afrio. I didn't even realize that until very
recently because he's so crazy looking in the movie. Yeah,
it's Vincent. It's Vincent din Afrio doing that version of
Men and Black essentially, but then the G Men version,
(30:19):
like the human FBI G Men version of Men and Black.
I don't know, I just I love how that filmed
kind of takes a lot of these things together. No,
it's it's a total mash up of all this stuff
because like, on the one hand, you're right there like
the G Men and the suits with the sunglasses and
the mind erasing technology, but also they're like in league
with aliens as well, Like they've got aliens on their team.
(30:41):
You know, it's like they're part of this diplomatic force
to kind of keep the bad ones at bay, but like,
you know, figure out cool stuff with the good ones. Yeah.
And and also equally important for anybody who who is
interested in that throwaway comment, Denny's was around in the
(31:01):
nineteen fifties. It was called Danny's Donuts. It was found
in ninety So my favorite Denny's sandwiches moons over Mihammy. Right,
So that that that throwaway reference, while it may not
have landed, was historically accurate, right, and maybe that's absolutely
And I don't know why you would think it didn't
(31:21):
land I was, I was, I'm craving the moon's over Miammy.
Ever since he said it, well, well, uh, you know
you have the power to make that dream of reality, right,
and uh, that's who knows. So whether whatever these aliens,
if aliens they be, think of Denny's that has lost
to history. But we can say the stuff that the
(31:44):
stuff that Bender describes includes things like, you know, levitation
and then glowing eyes, the ability to give people headaches
with a glance. That doesn't sound particularly inconspicuous, nor does
it sound like a subtle approach. There's no denying and
it's great for Barker's book. And if you ask the
(32:04):
people who knew Great Barker, who wrote that first book
we reference, you will see that folks are kind of
split about his motives. They questioned how much he believes
the story that he wrote about with Bender and with Doll. Yep,
and we're gonna get into that right after another quick
word from our sponsor. All Right, we're back. So if
(32:32):
you talked to friends of Barker's, like one guy named
John Sherwood. You'll hear that. You'll hear speculation that maybe
he made the men in black up on his own
as a joke, or Barker had talked, you know, he's
just hanging out the way that you would hang out
with your friends casually. He had talked off the record,
(32:55):
and he had said, at least at one point, maybe
this guy, Albert Bender had a really vivid, really frightening dream,
one of those dreams that is so vivid it feels
more like a memory, right than a dream. It feels
like a memory of an actual event. And we've all
had those people experience those those feelings. You wake up,
(33:17):
what's what's the best trope? Has this ever happened to you?
I've got I feel like a stand up comedian going
like what else? What else? All right? Yeah? But this
this is something that happens in relationships, right. Have you
ever been dating someone and they wake up and they're
mad at you because of some stuff you did in
their dream, the dream version of you, and you have
to you find yourself at like, you know, seven in
(33:39):
the morning, there's something saying okay, but yeah, just but
just to be clear, I have never uh, you know,
I I've what's something ridiculous to be mad at you about? Oh,
I've I've never planned to like throw pancakes at you
and light our house on fire. Are recurring dreams that
(34:00):
I had murdered my neighbor, um, and I woke up
guilt ridden, like really feeling like I had done this thing. Um,
I don't know what that says about me. Has suppressed
my psyche hasn't happened a long time, but I remember
feeling very viscerally guilty for having done a thing. Wow. Yeah, no,
I yeah, that has definitely happened to me before. Ben, Yeah,
(34:21):
I think, uh what I think. One of the weirdest
is I've also woken up bummed by events in dreams. Um.
I'd love to hear about people's recurring dreams. All my
dreams actually take place in kind of a shared universe.
It's really trippy the things that happened in one night's
sleep or whenever sleep affect stuff in the next dreams.
(34:47):
It's a whole thing. But but yeah, so we know
that dreams are powerful. We have some episodes on that
and on the science and speculation surrounding dreams. So it's
totally it's totally possible that Bender could have had it
experienced something while asleep that was simply so vivid he
could not separate the dream from the waking world. But
(35:09):
even if that's the case, the thing is Albert Bender
is very much not in on the joke. He was
consistent and forthright about his story for the rest of
his life. He never wavered, and it did his encounter
did prompt him to make some sudden changes. He canceled
(35:29):
his article that he was writing on what he believed
to be a UFO government cover up, and he shut
down this organization he founded, which may not have heard
of today. It's called the International Flying Saucer Bureau. It's
kind of a predecessor to move on. It was the
first major civilian club for UFO enthusiast. It was only
about a year old, and he just deep sixed the
(35:51):
whole thing. So we know that while his claims feel
outlandish and they feel unimprovable, this guy genuinely believed them.
He wasn't just trying to pull the wool over people's
eyes in a rush for money. You know. Yeah, we
at least believe that he did right that. We believe
that's the fact for him. But we we know this.
(36:14):
And man, I've been having conversations on clubhouse lately with
just folks who maybe blur these lines. Sometimes just because
you personally believe something doesn't mean that it's true, right, Um,
And that goes for all of us, and that's something
that we we just have to handle and to deal
with here. Uh. But you know, at the same time,
(36:37):
uh oh god, it's so strange conscious you know. We
I don't want to get too philosophical and down the
consciousness route, but there is there is something to be
said about someone who truly believes something so wholeheartedly that
it is real for them, It is true for them. Um. Anyway,
I don't I don't know where I'm going with us. Besides, like,
(36:59):
if this guy laved it fully enough, then you can
imagine that it shaped his entire life as it did
with we. We've just outlined all these things that the
steps that he took in his life to kind of
build it around this one thing that occurred, right, whether
it was a dream or an actual experience, Yeah, totally
so for the observers of this, for people who believe it,
(37:19):
or if you yourself believe you have encountered something like
the Men in Black. We would love to hear your story,
and we'd love to hear your your take on what
people like Bender have been saying. And despite the fact
that there are problems with these initial stories, despite the
fact that we now know more or less how the
(37:41):
concept of men and Black evolved into a part of
UFO folklore, belief in these entities persist. For the hardcore believers.
It's because those stories are true, and each encounter, if
it gets debunked orv as you know, some plot holes, discrepancies,
et cetera, they can be dismissed as misinformation. They're part
(38:04):
of the cover up, right. Uh. And this is this
is actually not that implausible because the US government is
super into spreading fake conspiracies to cover up other stuff
they're doing or other stuff they messed up along the way.
But for more academic investigators, that persistence of men and
(38:25):
Black can be explained by two big factors. First, shadowy
governments do exist. They don't have superpowers as far as
we know. They aren't some from some like far flung
Galactic she R School or Cree Empire. But there are,
as we said in the beginning, there are lots of
agents in playing clothes back then and today, and they
(38:48):
work directly for any number of government agencies. And knowing
this makes the story seem a little less implausible. And
then as the second part is, as it gets told
and re told and showcased and popular media and people
put their spin on it, whether they're selling it as
fiction or fact. People start toying with the idea. And
(39:08):
there's when there's this resurrection belief in Men in Black
portrayed in fiction. Then they start adding more and more
layers to the mythology. But this is what gets me.
If the wildest stories about the Men in Black are true,
then that means these guys are terrible at their jobs,
(39:32):
like they're no zero stars. Yeah, that's exactly what I
want to get to you. There have been so many
encounters at this point that have been documented, talked about, right,
like I of of U, A, p S and UFOs.
But how when's the last time you heard a Men
(39:52):
in Black story? I don't know, I mean it wasn't
there there was a it was the last Men in
Black movie. It's been a while camp full of years. Yeah,
I don't know. I think there's a new one coming
at some point. But I yeah, I'm getting at is
that it feels a little less zeitgeistin than it maybe
once was. Um not that it only depends on pop
culture references for that to be the case, but I
(40:14):
don't know that I've heard much rumbling about it in
a long time. Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is
on on message boards, on places where you may just
stumble around on the internet looking for something like this.
I'm not seeing men in black encounter stories and you know,
take that. That's one thing. The other thing for me
is why would a government agent, let's say they're completely human,
(40:37):
their government agents, they know someone seeing something that they
shouldn't see. Why would you expend resources making up stories
and trying to prevent some witness from talking in that way?
This is cold, But why would you not take them
out in an accident or something, or you know, make
it look like an accident, or just pay them money?
(41:02):
And well, I don't know. It doesn't make sense to me.
It feels like if it was worth keeping secret enough
a government entity, if it was, if if it was
operating like that, they would just take somebody out. To me,
And and also the the way the folklore works here
(41:25):
is that interest in it is cyclical, so it'll rise
and fall, and typically it'll it'll rise when you know,
another popular piece of fiction comes out about it at
this point. And so if there's an something with the
success level of the X Files, then that would be enough,
that would be enough to move the needle. But the
(41:48):
thing that still gets me, it's just like we're saying
how bad they would have to be at their job,
Like every story is these people told me never to
talk about them, and I'm saying it at a lecture hall, right,
or I'm traceable, I s P. You know, that's so bizarre.
(42:12):
And maybe maybe this goes away because the what we
see and what we've referenced here shows that it's increasingly
being understood by a lot of people as a fictional thing,
a folkloric thing. That's why we we had asked and
will ask again to hear your stories of encounters with
(42:34):
you know, shadowy government agents, if you believe, And do
you think they were men in black or do you
think like these were just like were they just the
FBI being a weirdly enigmatic because usually they would announce
who they are, right, they would say like, hey, when
I'm an FBI agents, so and so this were they
(42:56):
were also hanging out with David Blaine or no, I
guess no, they couldn't be Lane at the time, or
maybe a different reincarnation of Blaine however that works. But
he taught them how to make it look like they're levitating.
I like the idea of it. Not not David Blaine
teaching them stuff, but David Blaine just like always also
being there with the guys like my name is Mr
(43:19):
uh Smith, and then like and I'm David Blaine, and
then you got Chris Angel mind freak. He's like running
the car anyway. Yeah, I love it. They're all levitating.
You know who else is a big outspoken Men in
Black truther or is Dan Ackroyd Oh Yeah. Yeah. He
claims to have had several encounters uh that date pretty
(43:41):
far back um with Men in Black and and UFOs
and he's also like a big supporter of moufon and
all of that stuff. Pretty pretty interesting. There's actually videos
of him on on YouTube of him talking about it,
and he will post up at UFO conferences from time
to time, so he's very invested in this whole concept.
Dan Ackroid has a fascinating family history with some stuff
(44:07):
that it's just I mean, it's it's a little out there,
but you could totally see why Dan himself would be
into this stuff because of his parents. It'd be great
to uh, it'd be it'd be great to hear his
stories firsthand. But yeah, he has been an active member
of the ufology community for a long long time and
he's very well versed on the subject, and you too,
(44:30):
maybe thinking I've had an experience with something like this.
Maybe I don't believe there are men in black with superpowers,
and maybe I don't believe they're aliens, but there's someone
out there and they told me there was something, uh,
they would rather the public not know. If that's the case,
we would love to hear your story. We'd also love
(44:52):
to hear your take on the concepts of men and black,
the evolution of men and black in general. So hit
us up. We try to be easy to find online. Yeah,
you can find us on YouTube, you can find us
on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter at the
handle Conspiracy Stuff. We're also Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram,
and don't forget about the Facebook group. Here's where it
gets crazy. You can join that and share memes and
(45:13):
uh and quips with all your fellow conspiracy realists. It's
a fun place full of good folks. Um. If you
don't want to do that, you can give us telephone call. Yes,
our number is one eight three three st d w
y t K. You've got three minutes leave a message.
Do whatever you will in those three minutes. Please leave
yourself a cool nickname. We'd rather use that than your
(45:34):
real name. Uh, Seth, You've gotta stop calling them, By
the way, so many messages from Seth Right now, he's reporting,
it's reporting all kinds of shadows out in the woods
over there and on the lake. I do appreciate that.
It's a sound name each time. Yeah, appreciate that, though
(45:56):
we do. I can tell, like immediately said, he has
a melody. It's voice. It's it's quite unique. It's soothing.
Uh okay, So do that. Leave your message. It's with
your mouth, with your voice. If you have more to share,
then you can fit into that three minutes. Please instead
send us a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy
(46:17):
at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff they don't want you
(46:38):
to know is a production of I Heart Radio For
more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart
Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is They called me Ben.
We are joined today with our returning super producer Seth
Nicholas Johnson. Most importantly, you are you. You are here,
and that makes this the stuff they don't want you
to know. This is a good one, folks. This is
classic old school stuff they don't want you to know.
These are conspiracies. We're not stretching the term and we're
(00:48):
finding an answer. So let's let's paint a picture real quick, Seth,
if we could get get a little evening out in
the woods kind of vibe there perfect. So imagine you're
camping and it's late at night. You're near the river,
maybe on an isolated stretch of woods. The sky above
(01:09):
you as shining, steep, it's endless, and then it happens.
Something appears, something faster than a plane, closer than a star.
It hovers, it moves and impossible ways. It's got a
number of lights and unfamiliar shape and you're holding your
phone fumbling to to try to press record. You get
just a few seconds of kind of shaky footage before
(01:30):
the thing ghost on you, and you might say, Okay,
I'm a skeptical person or I'm already a true believer
in everything. X files, sign me up. Whatever happens, you've
just seen your UFO. The story doesn't in there, because
no matter what you do. The next day, you get
on your door. Two men are standing on your porch.
(01:50):
They're dressed in black, kind of nondescript, slightly outdated suits.
Behind them, you see maybe an older model car idling
on the street. They look like they could be out
of a Black the White film from the fifties or sixties.
May we come in? Asked them? In calling you by name,
You've got a tone that lets you know this isn't
really a question. You're startled, you step back, you open
(02:12):
the door because you're taught to, you know, comply with authority. Boom,
you've just met the men in black. That's about how
the story goes, right, Yeah, you've met the men in black,
So don't blake me. What was there is now gone
black suits with the black ray bands on the shadow
moving silence guard against extraterrestrial violence? Wow, did you have
(02:36):
that locked and loaded? Okay, okay, okay. Yeah. My favorite
line is that the title held by me M I
B means what you think you saw, you did not see. Dude.
This is uh one of my favorite I don't know
themes or motifs within the UFO lore space. These guys,
(02:58):
It's just they can body so many different things. Whether
they're you know, at least the stories you'll read, whether
they're actually people who are showing up as a part
of the government, or they are a part of the
UFO itself, whatever you saw, whatever that extraterrestrial intelligence is,
(03:20):
or some combination of the two. Uh, and a lot
of times. I mean it was popularized through the movie
Men in Black. But the concept of some kind of
gadgetry that can force you to not remember what just happened,
it's I love it. The little toothbrush looking thing. Yeah,
(03:43):
here are the facts. So this concept, this idea of
men in Black, what we just described, it's like you said, man,
it's one of the most popular pieces of conspiratorial UFO
folklore Noel. As you pointed out, it's referenced in countless
works of fiction that those are the real lyrics to
the song for the first Men in Black? Right? Is
(04:06):
it the first one? Yeah? I think I think he's
just called the Men in Black rap? Right, and now
it was just called men in Black? Like wait, is
it a Stevie Wonder sample? I think it's Send Me
Forget Me Nuts, but it's HEREcom the Man in But
Will Smith was very fond of doing that for his movies,
like There's a Wild Wild West, which was also Stevie
Wonder situation. You know, our good friend Linkston from My
(04:28):
MoMA told me had this thing recently where he's talking
about because Stevie Wonder reminds me of this man. I think,
you know, we're going apparently well. In this episode they
talked about this conspiracy theory that Stevie Wonder actually is cited,
that he can actually see, and Felonious Monk went in,
oh my god, that concept. That's like, that's like a
(04:54):
gag from a comic, I really broad comedy. I can't
remember what it is, but it's like someone's trying to
prove that someone is sited. It's so they throw an
object that in knowing that they're gonna like if they
can see, they'll they'll catch it. But instead of just
hits him in the head and knocks them over and
they're like, oh my bad, I guess you really are. Yeah. Yeah.
I won't stay on the Stevie Winner thing too long,
(05:15):
but I just have to say, anybody who's listening to
this show who isn't listening to my mama told me,
do yourself a favor and incorporate that into your pod
verse because it is uh, it is wonderful. Yeah, Langston
is super cool. We had him on the show and
I've been tuning into his podcast ever since. I would
(05:36):
love to check to see if they have an episode
on the Men in Black, because you know, like we've
like you can tell easily from just our conversation here,
fellow conspiracy realists. Men in Black is now a mainstream concept.
And it's a mainstream concept because it feels like it
(05:58):
could be based in ground things. The US government and
world governments have sent people to find civilians. Right, if
the FBI is investigating a case, then they will come
and question you if you happen to be in the
neighborhood or involved or something like that. Right, detectives will come.
(06:18):
So it's it's not impossible nor implausible for government agents
to show up at somebody's door. The difference here is
that it just it. It asked you to go one
step further and say, well, they're also if they are
also investigating you know, murders or crimes or big heist
or something, then they would investigate UFOs as well. So
(06:43):
what we're going to do today is not spend too
much time with the facts, because we found some facts
and they are pretty crazy. Instead, we're going to attempt
to solve this story, or at least solve how the
question of how men and black became mainstream and popular culture.
So it's very early on. But here's where it gets crazy. Uh,
(07:04):
it's a little bit of a cold shower. I hope
nobody gets mad at us here. But as conspiracies go,
it's mostly false. That too soon. No, No, I think
it's I think I think it's very respectful, Ben unrespectable
to just get you know, get that badger out of
the bag. But you know, but it's it's that image
(07:25):
of these types of people can be associated with all
kinds of government intrigue, right, I mean, like the g men,
for example, the men in black. It really is just
kind of like the uniform of shadowy government operatives, right exactly.
It's so common. It's a trope that even shows up
in that wonderful book American Gods by Neil Gaiman, The
(07:46):
Men in Black in there. And that's not a spoiler,
but it just it feels reasonable. Right. Uh. The origin
of this story can be traced back to July of
nineteen seven. And we have a story for you. It's
pretty cinematic. Let's see who wants to do the honors.
I can get you started here. I'll do sound effects.
(08:08):
Oh sweet bootleg fully sound effects. All right, We're just
gonna go as written here. Here's this fellow. His name's Harold,
Harold Doll and he and his son Charlie Charles, they're
they're hanging out there were there, There were their family
dog and there. And they're on there near the eastern
(08:33):
shore of this place called Maury Island. It's a conservation
area and their own a mission. Now this is in
Puget Sound. And they see something like a lot of
the stories of people who see men in black, Charlie
and Harold see something and the dog I'm as suing right,
the dog must have seen something or smelled something, and
(08:56):
they see what they describe as six donut shaped objects
hovering about a half a mile above the boat that
they are currently writing upon. So Doll claimed that he
watched one of these doughnutty disky things fluttered down to
Earth and then disintegrate, shooting off kind of like I
(09:17):
don't know, like space shrapnel or something like these fragments,
some of which hit his beloved dog and and ended
the dog's life sadly. Doll reportedly also took some photos
of these objects and showed them to a supervisor, a
man by the name of Fred krisman Um, who later
(09:37):
visited the scene himself and saw another strange object in
the sky, maybe the same one. He personally thought that
it was some kind of aircraft. Yeah, he didn't immediately
go star trek right with this, but Doll would later
go on to say he had he had an interesting
(09:57):
brunch date. The next morning. He was visited by a
mysterious man dressed and you guessed it black. And the
guy was not the like the sinister minium black type
of dude you hear about today in most fiction. Instead,
he was he was kind of cool. At first. He
he took Doll out for breakfast. He's like, hey, wait,
(10:18):
do you what's your position on eggs or bagels or whatever.
So these guys go and they grab some food together,
and this man who remains unnamed today appears to know
exactly what Doll has seen and experienced, and he knows
a lot of detail about it, and at one point
he cryptically warns Doll, you know, don't tell anybody about this,
(10:41):
don't talk about it. His specific quote, per Doll was
what I have said is proof to you that I
know a great deal more about this experience of yours
than you will want to believe. United. Yeah, right, And
it's it's one of those turns because at first, like
it's nice town, you got here, Oh yeah, so you
(11:02):
work in conservation over you know, like with the islands
and the Puget Sound. And then and then he just
drops the bomb. Yeah, a little birdie told me named Fred,
the guy that you told his friend wasn't a wasn't
a men in black whistle blow? Well, uh, maybe not
quite yet. But the US government investigates this incident, and
(11:26):
it's part of something that you can see, you can
see described in a memo called Project Saucer, and they
concluded that these guys were not mistaken, nor had they
seen anything strange. Instead, the FEDS argued they were making
this up. It was a hoax. At the very least,
(11:49):
it was a prank. So the they say, okay, this report,
we're on that island and the Puget Sound occurred just
a couple of days after this guy named Kenneth are
an old different guy claimed to see multiple crescent shaped
craft floating above Mount Rainier. So there's somebody else who
has seen said they saw a UFO in a nearby
(12:14):
and just a few days ago. This story generated a
ton of regional interest and I got a lot of
national coverage. So according to this memo, these two other guys,
Chrisman and Dahl, might have had a financial motive to
their story because they immediately tried to sell it to
a magazine based in Chicago. And this magazine did contact
(12:41):
the government and they contacted that guy from earlier, Kenneth Arnold,
who had seen some crescent shaped craft. So this Kenneth
Arnold guy in this pilot from Nined Airlines, a guy
named Captain and Mill J. Smith. They traveled out to Tacoma,
and they're gonna take a look at the evidence themselves.
So they're gonna talk to these guys, and you're gonna
look at the boat, the boat itself, to see if
(13:04):
there's any damage or if you know, like Null described,
there were any fragments of alien providence. Well, yeah, if
there's significant shrapnel to kill a dog, but then likely
there's damage to the boat of some kind, right, just likely,
not necessarily, but yeah, let's let's get some actual evidence
(13:26):
to this thing. And by the way, Smith also had
some time in the UFO spotlight himself because he reported
seeing some disc shaped objects um hovering over Boise, Idaho,
not terribly long in the past. On the fourth of
July in fact, and while he was into coma Um,
Arnold contacted two Army intelligence officers who helped him investigate
(13:48):
the claim um. The men met in secret at the
Winthrop Hotel, where dol Um produced some samples of the
the garments that he said came from the risk Um.
Two officers left the next day on a b for
Hamilton's Field, California, taking some of those fragments with them
(14:09):
to analyze further. Yeah, that makes sense. We got hard evidence, right,
That's the thing missing from so many UFOs sightings. So
there is a strange twist here they're playing. Never makes
it to Hamilton's Field. Instead, it crashes. There are four
people aboard this plane. Both of those officers who are
(14:31):
taking these fragments for analysis, they die in the crash.
The other two passengers, a crew chief and someone described
only as a hitchhiker, parachuted the safety This hitchhiker was
probably also a member of the military who needed to
get down to California for one reason or another. But
if you believe there's something to miss the fact that
(14:54):
this plane crashed, it doesn't look good for the official story, right.
And after the crash, newspapers and these wire services around
Tacoma started getting these anonymous phone calls that said, like
dark Faller or craft has been purposely shocked from the
air with a twenty millimeter cannon. You know, sounded like
(15:17):
Ben Kingsley when he was doing the Mandarin in Iron
Man three. You will never see me coming, you know,
speaking of which, no spoilers, but if anyone hasn't seen Shane,
it's so good. I think it might be my favorite
sort of more standalone Marvel movie. But that character in
a weird way makes a makes an appearances. I didn't
(15:42):
know you wanted. I didn't know you were going to
go see it. I will go see it with you
if I would see it again with you anytime. I
went with my kid, and even she loved it. And
she's not a huge movie fans. She's more into like
serialized stuff and like manga and things. But um, yes,
we we both loved it. And by the way, first
time seeing an atmost Dolby um Prisonation and it's game
changingly great, like the sound um and the picture of
(16:05):
really fantastic. And I sound like an old person, but
I think it's relatively new and we we only recently
just got one here in Atlanta. Um, but really really cool.
Oh where is it? It's the mat the Madison Yards
AMC Theater. They have a Dolby Atmos theater. It's it's
more expensive. It's like almost like three D prices, but
absolutely worth it and uh screw three D. This is
like this is the way, Matt, you want to go
(16:26):
with us? Okay, for sure, I'm I'm mulled awesome. Let
us know if you want to go to the movies
with us. Uh, what what we should be watching? Uh? Conspiracy?
I heart radio dot com. So here's the deal. When
the news comes out with these these anonymous phone calls,
the story of this crash goes around. Papers are reporting
(16:49):
on a possible conspiracy. They're not saying anything definitive, but
they're kind of darkly hinting that this plane may have
been destroyed because of the aigments aboard. The government investigates
the plane crash, investigates the accusations against it, and in
a stunning conclusion, finds no indication foul play. Instead, there
(17:14):
was a type of mechanical failure. Yeah, sure, sure right.
It's tough. It's tough because of the you know, the
timing of the tragedy. But at the same time, on
the same day that playing crash, something was going on
with Doll and Crispin. What was it? Will tell you
After a word from our sponsor and we're back. What's
(17:42):
that song? Uh? The cracks begin to show. Do you
guys know the song I'm talking about? Is it m
F Doom does dub Steps song? Apparently Dumb Step Alliance?
Is that it? I don't know the song at all,
but it definitely says. The cracks beget to show quite
a few times. Alright, yes, we'll go with that one song,
(18:07):
dub Step bend By. The Freestyles have a number of
interesting pursuits outside of work. Uh, dubstep. I don't know
if that's one of them. I just like that song.
I think if it's the right song. But anyway, the
cracks begin to show in in this painful segue. The
cracks begin to show in Darling Christman's story. The truth
(18:27):
may be beginning to come out. Yeah. On the same
day that this plane went down, both Doll and Chrisman,
who took Captain Smith the one of these fellows here
to see the boat that, you know, the one that
had allegedly been damaged where the dog was killed. Uh,
where these fragments actually impacted things. And Smith was kind
(18:51):
of like, all right, I'm not necessarily seeing anything here
that's out of the ordinary. Uh, doesn't look like maybe
there's that much damage, he later told investigators, while he
could see recent repairs that have been done on the
boat itself, like somebody blankly these guys had fixed a
couple dings or holes or fixed in particular the windshield
(19:14):
and the lights it didn't look like there was a
lot of damage, at least damage that was caused by
falling shrapnel or shrapnel that was exploded. Yeah. So Smith
is basically walking around going all right, man, I I
can see beat up boats at home. You know, there's
another kicker here. Later, under question, both of these guys,
(19:38):
Harold Dahl and Fred Crispin, reverse their stories. They say,
you know what, g men, this was all a hoax.
This was all a hocus focus on our part, hoaxes
pocas is on our part. Uh, the I think about
the at this point, they they're now caught up in
potentially being investigated for the deaths of some some military officials.
(20:04):
They yeah, that's a good point, Matt. So the fragments
that they had presented a proof of this encounter were,
it turns out, rocks they had found on the island.
They had hoped to sort of judge their story up
a bit by having those fragments when they you know,
(20:24):
when they spoke to that magazine in Chicago. So a
couple of things happened there. Right. If you are more
of a true believer in government cover ups of UFOs,
then this questioning was a way for the government to
force them to change their story and participate in a
(20:45):
cover up. But then, you know, if you're more on
the skeptical end, of course you're gonna say, well, if
it's a B. S story, it's probably not going to
hold up when the Army and the FBI is quizzing
you to make sure you've you're consistent. Still didn't really
matter at this point because that that match, that spark
(21:05):
of speculation had already been thrown onto the powder keg
of cultural concern. And this is amid the massive UFO
craze of the nineteen forties. It created the folklore we
know today, and we can follow it. We can trace
this evolution in American culture. We can find the rise
(21:26):
for the men in Black. It didn't happen right like,
it didn't happen while this was all going down. It
took about a decade for an author named Gray Barker
to talk about dolls Men in Black story in a
book called I Love the title. I wouldn't see you
guys think about this then knew too much about flying sauces.
(21:49):
I love it, Ben, But for for me, when I
look at the cover, yeah, it's it's always they knew
too much about flying saucers. That's the part. Yeah, okay,
so it's nine. A lot of stuff has happened, right.
This is almost a decade later, So by then the
(22:12):
government considered Doll's story completely debunked. Um case closed, at
least if you believe the official reports. But this whole
idea of these kind of like you know, spooky, shadowy
government agents was a little too fascinating and intriguing to
not catch on with with the public. Um Barker played
(22:34):
a pivotal role in this himself, as his book connects
the dots between dolls story about a quote man in
a black suit with another story from a guy named
Albert K. Bender, who claimed that three men dressed in
a similar way visited him back in nineteen fifty three.
Oh yeah, Benders. Interesting, let's spend some time on him.
(22:55):
So before this is the this is the fascinating fact here,
fellow conspiracy realists. Before Barker's book they knew too much
about flying saucers hit the press. It is enormously difficult
to find references in print to something we would call
(23:16):
the men in black, and only a few people who
are subscribed to UFO centered newsletters had ever heard of
this guy, Albert K. Bender. But as the years went by,
more and more people claimed to have encountered Men in Black,
and the story evolved. In some cases, people who had
(23:40):
had a UFO sighting in the past later revised or
expanded their story to say they had also encountered the
Men in Black. Similar to how like the the number
of people who claim that they were in the crowd
during famous assassinations only seems to grow every year. Right, Uh,
(24:02):
this may be partially trick of memory at some point.
It may just be because they want to have a
good story or it. Maybe again, if we're being fair here,
maybe because some of these people had sightings and they
were afraid to talk about that aspect of it. Maybe
originally the Men in Black didn't have any like superpowers.
(24:24):
They weren't aliens, blah blah blah. They were probably just
FBI agents Molder and Scully hitting the bricks. Let's see
what the heck is going on in Tacoma. Cue the
theme music if we could, you know what I mean, Well,
don't something like queue something like the theme music. But yeah,
not sign at all. That's very well, that's that's fine
(24:48):
as long as we don't get to suit. You know,
I think I thought it worked. I thought it was good.
But but now that the story evolves, as people are
playing this game of telephone and embellishing with their own details,
of their own interpretations, these FBI agents start to not
be entirely human and you start hearing that their speeches
(25:09):
still did that they use outdated phrases, that somehow they
look off. Their complexions might glow with unnatural pallor they
might have a strangeenus in their eyes, and they they
would use anachronisms and speech, you know, like um, they
would Maybe I'm just making things up here, but picture
(25:30):
older words that aren't usually in use today, like um,
part of me seem to have some rhubob on your
trousers or pantaloons maybe, or you know what I mean,
maybe they say automobile instead of car. Little things like that.
That's what people are claiming. Uh, and this this is interesting.
(25:50):
He's trying to think of a good comparison. You guys
remember the film Dark City. Oh yeah, that's so good.
I rewatched it. There's actually there's a new thing coming
out in the Dark City universe. I think about the
TV show. Yeah, but yeah, but if you picture the
way like the supernatural description of the men in Black,
(26:11):
picture the something like those uh antagonists in Dark City. Anyway,
So nineteen sixty two, a few years later, Vendor writes
his own book, Matt, you want to give us the title?
I like the way you did it. Mine sounded like
eighteen hundreds villain vaguely trans Atlantic accents. So let's go
(26:32):
with yours. I like whisper Man here. Okay, well, I'm
not gonna do whisper Man for this one. It's just
this one is a little more straightforward. It's called Flying
Saucers and the Three Men, which is either very simplistic
or very sinister, right, It just doesn't mean. I feel
like I could have gone back, you know, and and
(26:52):
revise that a bit. But it's fine. It's fine. And
this he's description of this encounter sort of sets the
precedent for all those supernatural elements that become so common
in later years. We've got we've got some quotes here
that are just perfect. They're perfect. And the weird who
(27:15):
wants to do the honors, I'll give you a couple here,
so there there. This is this is a quote. This
I think you can read about this from history dot com.
Is that where I saw this. You should be able
to find the quote in a couple of different places. Okay, okay, yeah,
you can find this is what I'm saying. I'm we're
not making this up. In the book, he writes that
(27:38):
there were three guys the three men quote floated about
a foot off the floor. Okay, so we got levitation.
Uh check, awesome. They looked like clergymen, but they wore
hats similar to the Humburg style. So again we're talking
about guys who seem out of time but kind of
(27:59):
like clergymen, but they're also floating cool. Their faces were
not clearly discernible, for the hats partially hid and shaded them.
The eyes of all three figures suddenly lit up like
a flashlight bulbs, and they seem to burn into my
very soul, as the pains above my eyes became almost unbearable.
(28:24):
Very very creative, Yeah, you know, very very good use
of language, well written. Feels like something out of a
sci fi novel. Well it's for me, it's it's horror.
It's horror. This is like horror. Writing of the monster
that you're encountering, you know, and this. He also says
that they have a very interesting conversation. These guys who
(28:46):
visit him say, all right, Mr Bender, we're not humans,
We are aliens. We appear human because we kidnap earth
people and we wear their bodies as disguises. Saucey comes
up later in Dark City spoiler, and Bender maintains this
(29:06):
version of the story for the rest of his life
until he passes away in two thousand two. The first question,
why are they telling him this? They show up, They're
like bird who was mind with their scanner powers if
anybody remembers that film. And then they say, we wear
the flesh of your dad. Don't say anything about this
(29:34):
or the previous thing. Just be quiet and we are
going to leave. Also, is there a Debty's nearby? We've
heard great things. Well, it's it's very strange how it's
The Men in Black film combines Bender's version of Men
in Black in the creature like the the extra trest
(29:56):
real that lands you remember that the farmer that turns
that it becomes a skin walker essential essentially puts on
the skin of a human played by it's played by
Vincent din Afrio. I didn't even realize that until very
recently because he's so crazy looking in the movie. Yeah,
it's Vincent. It's Vincent din Afrio doing that version of
Men and Black essentially, but then the G Men version,
(30:19):
like the human FBI G Men version of Men and Black.
I don't know, I just I love how that filmed
kind of takes a lot of these things together. No,
it's it's a total mash up of all this stuff
because like, on the one hand, you're right there like
the G Men and the suits with the sunglasses and
the mind erasing technology, but also they're like in league
with aliens as well, Like they've got aliens on their team.
(30:41):
You know, it's like they're part of this diplomatic force
to kind of keep the bad ones at bay, but like,
you know, figure out cool stuff with the good ones. Yeah.
And and also equally important for anybody who who is
interested in that throwaway comment, Denny's was around in the
(31:01):
nineteen fifties. It was called Danny's Donuts. It was found
in ninety So my favorite Denny's sandwiches moons over Mihammy. Right,
So that that that throwaway reference, while it may not
have landed, was historically accurate, right, and maybe that's absolutely
And I don't know why you would think it didn't
(31:21):
land I was, I was, I'm craving the moon's over Miammy.
Ever since he said it, well, well, uh, you know
you have the power to make that dream of reality, right,
and uh, that's who knows. So whether whatever these aliens,
if aliens they be, think of Denny's that has lost
to history. But we can say the stuff that the
(31:44):
stuff that Bender describes includes things like, you know, levitation
and then glowing eyes, the ability to give people headaches
with a glance. That doesn't sound particularly inconspicuous, nor does
it sound like a subtle approach. There's no denying and
it's great for Barker's book. And if you ask the
(32:04):
people who knew Great Barker, who wrote that first book
we reference, you will see that folks are kind of
split about his motives. They questioned how much he believes
the story that he wrote about with Bender and with Doll. Yep,
and we're gonna get into that right after another quick
word from our sponsor. All Right, we're back. So if
(32:32):
you talked to friends of Barker's, like one guy named
John Sherwood. You'll hear that. You'll hear speculation that maybe
he made the men in black up on his own
as a joke, or Barker had talked, you know, he's
just hanging out the way that you would hang out
with your friends casually. He had talked off the record,
(32:55):
and he had said, at least at one point, maybe
this guy, Albert Bender had a really vivid, really frightening dream,
one of those dreams that is so vivid it feels
more like a memory, right than a dream. It feels
like a memory of an actual event. And we've all
had those people experience those those feelings. You wake up,
(33:17):
what's what's the best trope? Has this ever happened to you?
I've got I feel like a stand up comedian going
like what else? What else? All right? Yeah? But this
this is something that happens in relationships, right. Have you
ever been dating someone and they wake up and they're
mad at you because of some stuff you did in
their dream, the dream version of you, and you have
to you find yourself at like, you know, seven in
(33:39):
the morning, there's something saying okay, but yeah, just but
just to be clear, I have never uh, you know,
I I've what's something ridiculous to be mad at you about? Oh,
I've I've never planned to like throw pancakes at you
and light our house on fire. Are recurring dreams that
(34:00):
I had murdered my neighbor, um, and I woke up
guilt ridden, like really feeling like I had done this thing. Um,
I don't know what that says about me. Has suppressed
my psyche hasn't happened a long time, but I remember
feeling very viscerally guilty for having done a thing. Wow. Yeah, no,
I yeah, that has definitely happened to me before. Ben, Yeah,
(34:21):
I think, uh what I think. One of the weirdest
is I've also woken up bummed by events in dreams. Um.
I'd love to hear about people's recurring dreams. All my
dreams actually take place in kind of a shared universe.
It's really trippy the things that happened in one night's
sleep or whenever sleep affect stuff in the next dreams.
(34:47):
It's a whole thing. But but yeah, so we know
that dreams are powerful. We have some episodes on that
and on the science and speculation surrounding dreams. So it's
totally it's totally possible that Bender could have had it
experienced something while asleep that was simply so vivid he
could not separate the dream from the waking world. But
(35:09):
even if that's the case, the thing is Albert Bender
is very much not in on the joke. He was
consistent and forthright about his story for the rest of
his life. He never wavered, and it did his encounter
did prompt him to make some sudden changes. He canceled
(35:29):
his article that he was writing on what he believed
to be a UFO government cover up, and he shut
down this organization he founded, which may not have heard
of today. It's called the International Flying Saucer Bureau. It's
kind of a predecessor to move on. It was the
first major civilian club for UFO enthusiast. It was only
about a year old, and he just deep sixed the
(35:51):
whole thing. So we know that while his claims feel
outlandish and they feel unimprovable, this guy genuinely believed them.
He wasn't just trying to pull the wool over people's
eyes in a rush for money. You know. Yeah, we
at least believe that he did right that. We believe
that's the fact for him. But we we know this.
(36:14):
And man, I've been having conversations on clubhouse lately with
just folks who maybe blur these lines. Sometimes just because
you personally believe something doesn't mean that it's true, right, Um,
And that goes for all of us, and that's something
that we we just have to handle and to deal
with here. Uh. But you know, at the same time,
(36:37):
uh oh god, it's so strange conscious you know. We
I don't want to get too philosophical and down the
consciousness route, but there is there is something to be
said about someone who truly believes something so wholeheartedly that
it is real for them, It is true for them. Um. Anyway,
I don't I don't know where I'm going with us. Besides, like,
(36:59):
if this guy laved it fully enough, then you can
imagine that it shaped his entire life as it did
with we. We've just outlined all these things that the
steps that he took in his life to kind of
build it around this one thing that occurred, right, whether
it was a dream or an actual experience, Yeah, totally
so for the observers of this, for people who believe it,
(37:19):
or if you yourself believe you have encountered something like
the Men in Black. We would love to hear your story,
and we'd love to hear your your take on what
people like Bender have been saying. And despite the fact
that there are problems with these initial stories, despite the
fact that we now know more or less how the
(37:41):
concept of men and Black evolved into a part of
UFO folklore, belief in these entities persist. For the hardcore believers.
It's because those stories are true, and each encounter, if
it gets debunked orv as you know, some plot holes, discrepancies,
et cetera, they can be dismissed as misinformation. They're part
(38:04):
of the cover up, right. Uh. And this is this
is actually not that implausible because the US government is
super into spreading fake conspiracies to cover up other stuff
they're doing or other stuff they messed up along the way.
But for more academic investigators, that persistence of men and
(38:25):
Black can be explained by two big factors. First, shadowy
governments do exist. They don't have superpowers as far as
we know. They aren't some from some like far flung
Galactic she R School or Cree Empire. But there are,
as we said in the beginning, there are lots of
agents in playing clothes back then and today, and they
(38:48):
work directly for any number of government agencies. And knowing
this makes the story seem a little less implausible. And
then as the second part is, as it gets told
and re told and showcased and popular media and people
put their spin on it, whether they're selling it as
fiction or fact. People start toying with the idea. And
(39:08):
there's when there's this resurrection belief in Men in Black
portrayed in fiction. Then they start adding more and more
layers to the mythology. But this is what gets me.
If the wildest stories about the Men in Black are true,
then that means these guys are terrible at their jobs,
(39:32):
like they're no zero stars. Yeah, that's exactly what I
want to get to you. There have been so many
encounters at this point that have been documented, talked about, right,
like I of of U, A, p S and UFOs.
But how when's the last time you heard a Men
(39:52):
in Black story? I don't know, I mean it wasn't
there there was a it was the last Men in
Black movie. It's been a while camp full of years. Yeah,
I don't know. I think there's a new one coming
at some point. But I yeah, I'm getting at is
that it feels a little less zeitgeistin than it maybe
once was. Um not that it only depends on pop
culture references for that to be the case, but I
(40:14):
don't know that I've heard much rumbling about it in
a long time. Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is
on on message boards, on places where you may just
stumble around on the internet looking for something like this.
I'm not seeing men in black encounter stories and you know,
take that. That's one thing. The other thing for me
is why would a government agent, let's say they're completely human,
(40:37):
their government agents, they know someone seeing something that they
shouldn't see. Why would you expend resources making up stories
and trying to prevent some witness from talking in that way?
This is cold, But why would you not take them
out in an accident or something, or you know, make
it look like an accident, or just pay them money?
(41:02):
And well, I don't know. It doesn't make sense to me.
It feels like if it was worth keeping secret enough
a government entity, if it was, if if it was
operating like that, they would just take somebody out. To me,
And and also the the way the folklore works here
(41:25):
is that interest in it is cyclical, so it'll rise
and fall, and typically it'll it'll rise when you know,
another popular piece of fiction comes out about it at
this point. And so if there's an something with the
success level of the X Files, then that would be enough,
that would be enough to move the needle. But the
(41:48):
thing that still gets me, it's just like we're saying
how bad they would have to be at their job,
Like every story is these people told me never to
talk about them, and I'm saying it at a lecture hall, right,
or I'm traceable, I s P. You know, that's so bizarre.
(42:12):
And maybe maybe this goes away because the what we
see and what we've referenced here shows that it's increasingly
being understood by a lot of people as a fictional thing,
a folkloric thing. That's why we we had asked and
will ask again to hear your stories of encounters with
(42:34):
you know, shadowy government agents, if you believe, And do
you think they were men in black or do you
think like these were just like were they just the
FBI being a weirdly enigmatic because usually they would announce
who they are, right, they would say like, hey, when
I'm an FBI agents, so and so this were they
(42:56):
were also hanging out with David Blaine or no, I
guess no, they couldn't be Lane at the time, or
maybe a different reincarnation of Blaine however that works. But
he taught them how to make it look like they're levitating.
I like the idea of it. Not not David Blaine
teaching them stuff, but David Blaine just like always also
being there with the guys like my name is Mr
(43:19):
uh Smith, and then like and I'm David Blaine, and
then you got Chris Angel mind freak. He's like running
the car anyway. Yeah, I love it. They're all levitating.
You know who else is a big outspoken Men in
Black truther or is Dan Ackroyd Oh Yeah. Yeah. He
claims to have had several encounters uh that date pretty
(43:41):
far back um with Men in Black and and UFOs
and he's also like a big supporter of moufon and
all of that stuff. Pretty pretty interesting. There's actually videos
of him on on YouTube of him talking about it,
and he will post up at UFO conferences from time
to time, so he's very invested in this whole concept.
Dan Ackroid has a fascinating family history with some stuff
(44:07):
that it's just I mean, it's it's a little out there,
but you could totally see why Dan himself would be
into this stuff because of his parents. It'd be great
to uh, it'd be it'd be great to hear his
stories firsthand. But yeah, he has been an active member
of the ufology community for a long long time and
he's very well versed on the subject, and you too,
(44:30):
maybe thinking I've had an experience with something like this.
Maybe I don't believe there are men in black with superpowers,
and maybe I don't believe they're aliens, but there's someone
out there and they told me there was something, uh,
they would rather the public not know. If that's the case,
we would love to hear your story. We'd also love
(44:52):
to hear your take on the concepts of men and black,
the evolution of men and black in general. So hit
us up. We try to be easy to find online. Yeah,
you can find us on YouTube, you can find us
on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter at the
handle Conspiracy Stuff. We're also Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram,
and don't forget about the Facebook group. Here's where it
gets crazy. You can join that and share memes and
(45:13):
uh and quips with all your fellow conspiracy realists. It's
a fun place full of good folks. Um. If you
don't want to do that, you can give us telephone call. Yes,
our number is one eight three three st d w
y t K. You've got three minutes leave a message.
Do whatever you will in those three minutes. Please leave
yourself a cool nickname. We'd rather use that than your
(45:34):
real name. Uh, Seth, You've gotta stop calling them, By
the way, so many messages from Seth Right now, he's reporting,
it's reporting all kinds of shadows out in the woods
over there and on the lake. I do appreciate that.
It's a sound name each time. Yeah, appreciate that, though
(45:56):
we do. I can tell, like immediately said, he has
a melody. It's voice. It's it's quite unique. It's soothing.
Uh okay, So do that. Leave your message. It's with
your mouth, with your voice. If you have more to share,
then you can fit into that three minutes. Please instead
send us a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy
(46:17):
at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff they don't want you
(46:38):
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