What are the Primary Elections?

To outside observers, the US primary elections can seem pretty confusing. So how do political parties use this system to select candidates - and why do critics feel the process is so corrupt?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello,

(00:21):
welcome back to the show. My name is Mac, my
name is Noel, and I am Ben. You are you?
Of course, we hope and that makes this stuff they
don't want you to know. That was great. Wow, the warble,
it's real. No, you've got some pipes on you. Thanks

(00:43):
as well, Matt. You guys both have fantastic singing voices,
so I don't. I'm just gonna be clear. No one
asked me to sing evert uh. So we're recording today's
episode in April. What are we talking about? What? What
could we possibly be talking about? Anyone who doesn't look
at the title of an episode, Well, we're going to

(01:04):
talk about the process that that we all go through
to select the people that we want to eventually vote
for during the presidential election. Although it's not as simple
as that. It didn't sound. I have gotten so deep
in researching this stuff into Roberts what is it? The

(01:27):
Roberts Rules of Order? Have you guys heard of this?
I had never heard of this before. It's the that's
the manner in which these people interact with one another. Yeah, yeah,
the the way if you're at a congressional hearing or something,
the way Congress or a parliament the way some some
absurdly detailed version of like parliamentary procedure. Well, the gentleman

(01:48):
yield the remainder of his time, the gentleman in Kentucky, Yes,
exactly to speak. It is so complex, everything from deciding
where people sit and oh my god, I love how
snarky it becomes. You know, like, with all due respect
to my esteemed colleague from New Hampshire, thumbs go up,

(02:10):
but it happens, I will not yield my time. I mean,
that's you know, that's obviously a fake example, I hope,
And no offense to New Hampshire. Uh. What what we're
talking about today will be the thing known as the
primary election. For those of you listening outside of the

(02:32):
US and Canada probably as well. Uh, you probably have
some great questions like why is the U S election
season so long? Why does it seem so crooked? Why
is there essentially a series of like rehearsal elections in
front of the general election. And this is something listeners
that you would talk to us about. And Matt, as

(02:54):
you alluded to earlier, this is an idea that you brought, Uh,
you brought to the table, and you know, a lot
of the a lot of the stuff we're gonna talk
about today. I'm glad we're not using parliamentary procedure the
rules of order, because it would be very difficult to do.
That would be the strangest, maybe worst, maybe best podcast

(03:17):
ever if it was just parliamentarily. We do try to
stick to the rules of engagement though whenever possible. Oh yeah,
the Geneva Convention governs this all. We follow the rule
of law, including the laws of war. We have to
wear uniforms that clearly identify us as such, and we

(03:39):
agreed after that incident in no more running around with
with a Red Cross shirt on, unless you actually do
work for the Red Cross. That's right. And I did.
I don't know if you guys noticed, but I got
my big media. Uh it's not a cap. It's like
a helmet, says media on it in several languages, made

(03:59):
of infoil. It is, I hope not. I hope it's
a little more sturdy than that. Well, luckily, most of
the wars here at how stuff works involved NERF guns.
Just getting back really fast back you're saying I brought
this to the table. I I have to admit I
maybe brought this to the table because Nolan and I
were talking about some of the things we were reading
in the news, and we were trying to wrap our

(04:21):
heads around the primaries and all the things that we're
going on now in the current election, and we wanted
to see if maybe there's some context we can get
by looking back right on. Yeah, because this is that's
an excellent pointment, because this is not just about the
current primary election or should I say season running at

(04:46):
the time of this recording. This is about the nature
of that system in the U S, where it came from,
where it's going, pros and cons and of course conspiracies.
So first things first, U US listeners, bear with us
if this this stuff you've heard before. We're going to
explain that the basics of voting, So segments of the

(05:06):
US population, Matt Noel me perhaps you as well, in
units of qualified voters elect numerous local, state, and federal positions.
And this happens all the time. This happens at various
times throughout the year in the decade, but the one
election that always gets the most attention is the big one,

(05:28):
the top dog seat president of the United States. Now,
at this point, some listeners may say, well, why can't
you vote for the leaders of banks. That's a good question,
because they have a profound influence on public policy. But
they are private organizations and that's something we will find. Uh, well,
we'll address that later again. Yeah, yeah, but stick with

(05:51):
certainly elected in their own strange, closed door kind of ways.
That's true. They're not gonna ask you about it, right, Yeah.
They never replied to our snapchat or are tweets. We're
conspiracy stuff. By the way, if you're interested, right, I
try to work these plugs in in a different way.
As a consequence, the process bying the presidential election is
a little bit different in comparison to the others, and

(06:13):
many groups or institutions or individuals spend a great deal
of time attempting to influence these elections. And one one
way to illustrate just how important this is for many
US citizens. Unfortunately, the quadrennial presidential election is the only
time they will actually vote, not for the senators, not

(06:36):
for the state house, or you know, the local commissioner
or something just for the president of the US. And
it's not even that large of a percentage of US
voters that actually vote for the president. So most people,
the vast majority of individual voters, will cast a ballot
for one of two major parties candidates. Uh. These candidates

(06:59):
are each chosen by a group of organizations collectively known
we refer to them as parties, which you know, wasn't
meant to be ironic, but it feels that way sometimes.
The two big parties that we're talking about are the
Democrats and the Republicans are the most popular parties, each
of which has an estimated one third issue of the

(07:22):
nation's voters on its team. The other rough one third
issue is composed of people who register as independents. But
that number, that ratio fluctuates, especially around election season. And
it's interesting, Uh, just as an example we've seen this year,
when you are registered as an independent, that can that

(07:42):
can be a big factor on whether or not you
get to vote in these primary elections, depending on which
state you live in. And as collective organizations, these entities,
these parties are private. Yes, we cannot uh, I can't
say that strongly enough. That's one huge takeaway that you
need to remember when we speak about all of this.

(08:04):
These are private institutions. You need a password to get in,
like Fidelio or something. It is literally a private party. Yeah,
So these parties choose these candidates. They make the choice
for the uh, they make the choice for the general
public in the in the big election, the actual non

(08:24):
address rehearsal, real election. How do these candidates get chosen?
So the first thing they do they stand up at
some point, after already getting some money from donors or
you know, going around and talking to people without officially
saying it, they say I will be running for president

(08:44):
or seeking the nomination of my party at least like no,
you would announce your candidacy to donors I guess, and
other other people who could influence your candid And then
then I would light a sage and draw a circle
on the ground, turnaround three times. Well, yeah, I guess

(09:06):
you do that in the green room of the Tonight
show or whatever you're on to go say hey, I'm
running for president. So when the US holds these primary
elections and caucuses, we can think of these. You know,
I'm joking when I say they are rehearsal elections, although
I understand why I could look that way. These are
smaller party specific general campaigns wherein again, qualified voters vote

(09:29):
for one of their parties potential candidates. Now I've used
that phrase qualified voter twice, so let's look at what
that means. A qualified voter is over eighteen, right, or
in military service perhaps, and is not a felon in
some states, right, and in other states that it goes

(09:51):
state by state. Qualified voter also resides in the in
an eligible area. Right. So, no matter how strongly Matt
and Nolan I feel about the city commissioner of Los Cruses,
New Mexico, I don't know if that's a position. But

(10:12):
you're looking at me very serious. I don't mean to
make light. No, no, no, I don't see what you're saying.
I mean, you know, we could really have strong feelings
about this position, but because we are not residents of
that particular county, we do not reside there, we are
not registered there, we can't vote, are disqualified. They'll we'll
get something like thank you for your letter, three strange

(10:32):
people from Atlanta, thank you for your interest in the town.
But we got this. We have this handled by people
who live here, which is a fair thing. So numerous
things can qualify or just qualify you as a voter.
And this is where you get into whether or not
you're registered as a Democrat, a Republican, or an independent.
And I can't wait to get into some of that
a little later. Yeah, right. So after this primary system,

(10:57):
as these prospective candidates have vied against one another state
by state to win over their registered Democrats and the
registered Republicans, then at that convention the party will formally
announce their candidate for the general elections. So they would say,
ladies and gentlemen, Uh, you know, I congratulations to Noel Brown.

(11:21):
Maybe it's like prices right, Maybe they open an envelope
and say, Noel Brown, come on down, meaning to the
world to me to have your support. Ben. Hey, you
know what, I'm just glad to have a candidate I
can believe in who understands the issues. I'll try to
let you down, especially the sandwich related issues. So these people,

(11:42):
these candidates, the Democrat winner and the Republican winner and
uh smattering of independence often relegated to the sidelines, will
debate and campaign against one another in much the same
way that they did against their prospective opponents in the primaries.
This sounds pretty straightforward, if overly in convenient, So let's
make it more complicated. So, as you said, Ben, this

(12:05):
is crazy inconvenient, but it is also necessary, at least currently. So. So,
before all these crazy proceedings became the norm, uh, it
was it was a bit of a hectic place or
a hectic uh procedure trying to decide who's going to
run for president. Uh. The real election power was held

(12:27):
within a very select few people who you know, were
the movers and shakers of states. Right. It was held
in the hands of a privileged few, such as uh,
captains of industry and Uh. Even though this is theory
of meritocracy, Uh, you know the senator's dad, Right, people

(12:48):
were elected based on their family. How crazy is that.
I'm just gonna leave that one there. I know I
bring it up every time we do a political podcast,
but come on, alright, So, yeah, you're right, you're right. Uh.
The average voter had a choice in the general election,
but little, if any say in who the party's candidate
would be. So it's necessary. The practice of primaries emerged

(13:12):
as a result of the progressive era. And secondly, it
is more complicated. It is inconvenient and more complicated than
what we've said before. We haven't even gotten to the
stranger conspiratorial part yet. What is a primary? Can I
curse on this show? What is a primary? You just did?
And yes? Well for these parties quotation fingers. The average

(13:37):
voter turnout in each state is particularly important, not because
it's a direct election, but because the votes actually determine
the actions of the delegates appointed state level party officials
who vote basically on behalf let's say, of the voters
in theory h Another quotation figures big ones according to
the rules of their state and party. Oh and that's

(14:00):
another tricky part because the states have widely varying rules
and some primaries that's a winner take all thing. And
if you get a majority, like if Noel Brown wins
in one state and gets a majority, then he gets
all of the delegates in other places. It's proportional, and
primaries have different voting structures and requirements such as open, closed,

(14:21):
semi open, etcetera. Once the number of delegates are added up,
then boom, we have a winner. Critics believe this system
originally constructed to combat corruption, has lost its way, has
become a tool of the same corrupt and oligarchical tendencies
who was initially meant to prevent. Yeah, I mean, I

(14:42):
was kind of gonna make a joke earlier. He said, Well,
back in the day, used to be captains of industry
that would pick you know, the candidates. I'm like, how
is it now? Yes, exactly, Well, it's just a lot
more red tape they have to cut through, and it
has to be done in a much more secretive and
underhanded way. And I'm not trying to you know, proselytize. Yeah, exactly,
But I mean we know, we know that elections can

(15:05):
be influenced, and you know, may not directly, but they're
you know, especially now we've got Citizens United Decision, with
all these super PACs and all of this you know,
money just flying around nilly. I mean, there's definitely you know,
the power of the purse kind of thing. And this
this is just a tangent, but this also of course
holds for uh, foreign elections. The U, the US and

(15:28):
some corporate interests are big fans of going into a
country and having you know, a group of student protesters
who are united against uh, communism or something, and then
of course becoming a becoming a coup or influencing the election.
But that's a story for another day. We've we've explained primaries, right,

(15:51):
we're on we're on base with that. We're all in
sane page things. So there's some a new show we
need to get into. But before we move on, could
we go through a few of the different categories of
primary And I think, um, I know that that until recently,
I've been pretty confused about what they all mean. I
think it might be helpful for some folks that we do. Sure, Well,
here's what I know. Uh, A closed primary means that

(16:12):
if you are going to vote in this election, you
have to be a party member of one of the
parties to vote for that ballot or to cast that
bat So only a registered Republican could vote in the
Republican primary, and only a registered Democrat for the Democrat primary, exactly.
And then you've got when you haven't opened Let's say,
let's say I'm a registered Republican, but I want to

(16:34):
go in and vote for the Democrat for a Democratic
candidate that I let's say that I want to beat
the other one. Or something. You know, something like that.
Maybe you've just had a change of heart. Oh yeah, sure,
I go I can go in and I can vote
for the Democratic uh party, which is which is kind
of interesting. It makes the game a little more complicated,

(16:56):
which is kind of fun when you're when you're trying
to you're out what the numbers might be. I guess
when you're Nate Silver trying to make these numbers happen. Yeah,
Nate Silver, the mathematical mastermind behind five thirteen. Right. So
the you know, you hit on a strategy that is
common where or in theory, it could happen very easily

(17:18):
wherein someone says, uh, for instance, I hate to do it, guys,
but I'll take a current example. Someone says, for instance that, uh, oh,
I am a Democrat. Uh In, I'm a Democrat, and
I am a Democrat. Friends, think that Donald Trump has

(17:38):
no chance of actually winning, or Ted Cruz has no
chance of actually winning, So we're gonna vote as Republicans, uh,
in order to give the candidate that we like, whether
that would be like Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders or whichever,
give that candidate uh an easy fight in the actual
general election, making the much more likely to be the president,

(18:02):
and that can happen in open primaries the other type.
In most cases an open primary, the voter has to
choose a party to vote for by making a public
statement at the polling station, which means, you know, you
tell the election volunteer which party want to vote for,
and then you get a ballot containing candidates for that party.
It's a weird thing too, that that open public statement

(18:24):
that you make that is a part of the official
rules during one of those because it's literally you sitting
across the table from someone and they just say, are
you voting Democrat or Republican? And it's just weird that
it feels so informal. I guess as the end user
of some of these rules, but in reality you're going
through these processes step by step and they're highly important,

(18:47):
so these are kind of interesting. Then you have a
semi closed primary, which allows registered party members to vote
only in their own parties primary, but unaffiliated voters are
also allowed to vote, yeah, well the independence. And then
you have a semi open where as your voter uh
doesn't have to declare which political party, which political primary

(19:10):
rather they want to vote in before going into voting movement. Right,
you can just wing it and talking like it's a
new restaurant and you're looking at the menu for the
first time. Just point at one. So none of this
stuff is conspiratorial, and this is just right now. This
is just a one oh one explanation of how this

(19:31):
system in theory works. But of course, ladies and gentlemen,
you know what sort of show this is. Here's where
it gets crazy. Every election season there are factions from
each party um that allege some kind of corruption, vote mishandling, tampering,

(19:53):
even conspiracy regarding different actions, tiny little minutia of campaign procedures.
So with the rise of global national communication, the Internet, etcetera,
this has just ballooned dramatically and you can't get away
from it, which is weird. It is weird. But this
particular cycleway right now has been a doozy. Yes, yeah,

(20:17):
and we have to talk about a little bit of
that as well. And what strange is there's an inverse
relationship here because people alleging cover ups, corruption or conspiracies.
That number is skyrocketing now that it's cheaper than ever
to transmit information, but at the same time, voting numbers
are plummeting. And uh, that's because when we complain about

(20:41):
something online or via social media. Often when people do this,
they feel like they're making a difference without actually doing something,
enacting some sort of change, other, of course, then reinforcing
a smug kind of self righteous commitment to their own
pre existing belief by hopping on these ephemical hype trains

(21:02):
or these online pitchfork mobs that vanish soon after the event.
And there's a physiological reason, a neurological reason behind some
of this reading. You know, like you read something online
and it confirms something that you already believed, then you
want to go and tell other people about it. We

(21:22):
want to just sort of be a medium of transmission
for an idea and then therefore be associated with that idea.
That's why you see all those crazy Facebook posts that
are you know, maybe true, maybe not, and but but
sure feels validating for people to share them. And there's

(21:44):
this thing that happens when we talk about projects or
things that we're going to do in the future, which
maybe for the artists in our crowd you have experienced yourself.
When we have a memory, it's like we're experiencing a
thing Again, when when we're talking about artistic endeavors. For instance,

(22:09):
let's say the three of us were working on a song,
or let's say the three of us were working on
a book, or a gigantic I don't know, mural of
tangerines and seashells I don't know, or a podcast. Yeah,
it's so much easier to talk about a thing. And
when when we talk to other people about a thing
that we're doing or that we're going to do, we

(22:32):
feel physiologically the reward center kicks in as we feel
as though we have already done it. And that's part
of the reason why it's so easy to say, like,
oh man, uh, this politician is destroying or saving America
and be aware or stay woke or whatever because it's happening.
And then you know it's contagious because other people see

(22:55):
it and they go, you know what, up vote, you
know what, like I made a friends. However, there's a
question here when we talk about these conspiracy theories and
this online phenomenon, are these even if they're echo chambers,
are they just the stories of of sore losers, the

(23:16):
Jeremiah's of sync offense, or are they valid points because
honestly to your earlier statemental to the gentleman from Augusta's
earlier statement, I believe that a lot of this stuff
is valid, actually, and I mean that's a personal bias
that I have, but I wanted to be clear about that.

(23:38):
The truth may be somewhere in between. Do you guys,
do you want to make it more complicated? Yeah? No,
our help? Well, okay, so there are several there are
several big issues that have been coming up with this
current election cycle. Makes me tired. Yeah, you just start

(23:59):
to glaze over after a while because it's just so
like prohibitively convolated. Please gets great? Well, I think you know,
maybe that's the point, Noel. Maybe maybe it's to make
you sleepy and be like, oh, super delegates. Take that
scene in the Wizard of Oz with the poppy fields,
you know, yeah, oh wait wait what uh did you

(24:19):
say super delegates? Met? Yeah? Man, what are super delegates?
All delegates are not created equally. I'm here to tell
you that right now. Uh So, okay, let's go over
exactly what a delegate is because we we kind of
uh we hit it earlier, but let's just say what
it is. A delegate is an elected official. Uh. They're
elected through state sometimes state elections, sometimes more local elections.

(24:43):
Sometimes they're appointed. Again, all of this stuff is going
to vary a bit state by state. These are the
people who are gonna end up going to the convention
after the primary elections and caucuses have occurred, and they
are the ones who actually cast the vote to nominate
someone for a party. It's not the it's not the

(25:03):
primary electorate, the you and me, you know, standing here
and voting at a booth. It's these guys who stand
up and hold up sometimes they will hold up a
flag or a little thing. Um. They're the ones who
cast the vote. So there are these other things called
super delegates. Now these were introduced or created rather by

(25:25):
the Democratic National Committee in nineteen eighty two. Uh. The
governor of North Carolina at the time, James B. Hunt Jr.
The honorables, I don't know if he's honorable. Is honorable
for a judge, I don't know. I think it can't
go anyway. I don't think honors should be restricted just
slinging around just okay, this is the US man. You

(25:47):
can just say anything with the people call themselves bishops,
all the time. What's another word that we could put
in place for honorable That would be kind of silly, esteemed, imminent, Oh,
the imminent. That's pretty good, all right, that the till
pierres either way, either way they're on the way or
they're distinguished. So in in two the imminent Governor of

(26:11):
North Carolina, James B. Hunt Jr. He he led this
commission to create a new category of delegates which would
allow the Democratic Party leadership we're talking members of Congress, governors,
other d n C officials within the party, allow these
these people to have more power within the nominating process,
so not just the popular vote the plebs as it were, right.

(26:34):
Uh So, originally he wanted this to make up thirty
percent of the total delegate vote, these super delegates, but
after some bickering, some back and forth, threeing, they ended
up reducing that so that the percentage was four percent
for the convention in nine eight four. So this number
has fluctuated quite a bit over the years. It hovered

(26:56):
around for a time in the nineties there, but in
this election cycle it's floated back down to around fifcent.
This is the Democratic National Committees superdelegates. Now these superdelegates are,
at least in theory, meant to be uncommitted to anyone candidate.
What they are supposed to do is UH side with

(27:18):
whichever candidate gets the most popular votes. Right. So, for instance,
in this case, Noel Brown gets the majority of votes
against his opponent, and give us an opponent from the
office that people recognize. Oh, Jonathan Strickland. The rivalry has

(27:40):
got into politics. I see, so Jonathan received slightly fewer votes.
But what happens in practice would be, although these super
delegates are required to vote for Noel Brown, being that
being the clear winner of the percentage of popular votes,
maybe they say, you know what, though, I fully support

(28:02):
Jonathan strickland sandwich policy, and I'm going to vote my
conscience because darn it, hot dog, it's not a sandwich.
Don't want them sold in the same place. I don't
want them next each other on a plate. Cats and
dogs sleeping together. America's downfall is named Noel Brown. So

(28:23):
these super delegates can still vote in a different UH,
in a different manner to which they are supposed to vote,
and we have examples of this. So a particularly good
example of this came from c Q dot com an
article that we found UM and the example is Walter Mondale.
So in in San Francisco super delegates UM furnish the

(28:46):
difference in the fight between Walter Mondale and Gary Hart
of Colorado, who was a Senator from Colorado. UM. Coming
into the convention, Mondale was way ahead, clear lead in
pledge delegates, but the two got roughly the same number
of popular votes. And this is you know, where the
delegates are supposed to step in and you know, vote

(29:07):
along with the popular vote. But when the primary ended
in June, Mondale ended up with not quite enough of
the delegates needed to get the nomination. So he made
a series of phone calls to uncommitted super delegates. And
you can do this these people, you know who these
people are. You can actually reach out of these people.
And that's kind of creepy to me. So Mondale actually

(29:28):
made calls, direct calls to the uncommitted super delegates, and
he was able to make that push over the cliff.
He won just enough to get it done. So analysts
UM now look at this as a great example and
it's proof positive that super delegates don't reverse the will
of the people. They provide a margin of winning margin. However, however,

(29:55):
Gary Hart disagrees because he says that many of these
super delegates had already committed or pledged themselves to Mondale.
And he says, you when they have a dance card,
like how do you commit? Like what I don't understands,
Like you said, man, you burn the stage, you walk
around the circle three times? Wittersian's no, they they have.

(30:15):
They said they pledged to Mondale before this began. Like
when no takebacks like yeah, we we have. This is
all just democratics, This is just democratic stuff. But we
have a pretty good quote here. This is from heart.
He says, between June and July, my wife and I
personally called all of the super delegates, and over and
over again they would tell us, I'm sorry, I wish

(30:37):
I could vote for you, but I pledged a Mondale
back in January. And this happens, Well, something like this
happens with the Republican National Committee. You might say, are
their super delegates on that side. Yes, In fact, there
are three for each state. They're the three official members
of the National Party, the state's national party, the state

(30:58):
level version. They account for or maybe seven percent of
the total delicate count. So according to gop dot com
and the RNC rules from these super delegates have to
vote for the candidate that their state chose, yes, unless
something crazy happens that we've been hearing a lot lately

(31:18):
in the news, like what which would be a brokered convention?
Or sometimes it's called a contested convention, which is slightly different,
or an open convention. All three are slightly different, but
the big one here is a brokered convention. Broke it down? Now,
this would be let's just go ahead and put it

(31:38):
out there. Let's bring out the elephant in the room
in response to the media arc, shall we say, rise
of a certain New York billionaire that that very well
could be the reason that you said elephant in the room.
But yeah, so what's the deal? I mean, you know,
it seems to me that this he shall not be named,

(32:03):
you know, has been doing a pretty fine job of
getting the popular vote. So where's the where where does
the contesting come in? So a brokered convention occurs when
either side either party, when the candidates don't reach a
certain number of delegates pledged to delegates. So on the
Republican side, they need one thousand, two hundred and thirty

(32:25):
seven pledged delegates. On the Democratic side, they need two thousand,
three hundred and eighty three delegates and if no one
has that, as as Matt said, then the convention becomes brokered.
And what that means is that those delegates who had
the pledge, who had pledged to a different candidate, are
released from their obligation for crabs. Yeah. Yeah, they're single

(32:49):
and ready to mingle. Right, has this happened in recent time?
It's been a long time. I think the fifty I
want to say it was in the fifties and four
maybe it was the last May juror broker convention. We're
in an interesting time now where we're seeing clearly the
establishment and the Republican side does not like Donald Trump
because he is sort of his own you know, entity,

(33:11):
doesn't really play by their rules. And so I've been
hearing all this talk of broker conventions, but yet he
just seems to be doing absurdly well. So I just
don't see how it's very likely that that would happen, right, Yeah,
a lot of individual voters are voting in a way
that members of the Republican establishment or party don't agree with,

(33:33):
you know, and there's a there's a fracture within that which,
you know, these kind of fractures occur whenever you have
a group of a lot of people pushing for a
decision where there you know, a highlander thing where there
can only be one. Yeah. I guess what I'm saying
is it doesn't seem like the point of a broker
convention is uh, in the event that the people choose

(33:53):
a candidate, the Republican establishment doesn't like yeah, like, that's
not what it's designed for. It's not some sort of
fail safe so that the Republican you know, establishment can
be like who who whoa whoa whoa? Of course, of course,
you know, not the situation. I think it's interesting that
we're seeing this. Well, there's layout and there's a great
quote from the Brookings Institution that that addresses the weakness

(34:18):
in the system here quote. Because the primaries get so
much attention, people often forget that in the end, it
is the delegates who award a presidential candidate denomination, not
unquote there just for a moment, not us, not the people.
But here's the rub here, guys. Uh, These delegates, these
people who are representing the popular vote, they are only

(34:41):
bound by their own political aspirations, right, So they're elected
by people in their local area. Uh. And if you know,
let's say they choose to vote against the will of
the people, there will probably be repercussions when they return
home from Cleveland or wherever they are at the convention.
So really they only have to think about how how

(35:01):
do I move forward politically if I decided to vote
my way instead of the people's way. Says vote for
me and I will make you Secretary of the Interior.
You're not supposed to do that. Yeah. The weird thing
is that it isn't outright illegal within the party rules

(35:22):
to essentially bribe a delegate if there is a brokered convention,
to to go out and convince, like as a candidate yourself,
whereas the you know, the group of people representing the
candidate go out and convince delegates once they've all been released,
that hey, you should vote for me, and here's why.
And so I have a quick hypothetical question for you. Guys.

(35:44):
Let's say the three of us are delegates, We're at
a brokered convention. We went there to support candidate A,
but candidate B comes to us and says, hey, you
should really vote for me and slides across an envelope
on a table just like this. What has to be
in that envelope for you to go against all of

(36:04):
the people in your hometown? Real big number, how big
we're talking. I don't know, man, I had to be
in the situation, you know, I mean, I got you,
But no, I'm just giving. I'm I'm countering your hypothetical
with my own hypothetical, you know, to touche indeed, So
go on, Well, I guess what I What I mean
is that if you're some a delegate who has been elected,

(36:27):
who knows what your job is, what you do, how
much money you make. But if somebody comes to you
and offers you, let's say it's a significant sum to
switch your vote, I mean I I can see it
being a pretty easy decision to say, oh yeah, Well,
I guess that's that's how all go. Or to Ben's
previous point, what if it was a pretty cushy, you know,
cabinet position or something. I think influence probably carries more

(36:50):
than money. Agreed. But but to back back to the
whole thing, where the only repercussions for not voting correctly
would be political fallout, right, So would you be shielded
from that? I mean, you know, like you would you
wouldn't you be considered a pariah at that point in
the political system. Where do you burn those bridges because
you're getting offered a line to somewhere else? It isn't

(37:11):
it that wouldn't it be super obvious? Though I don't know.
Maybe I I think we need to go back. I
need to go back and look at this stuff and see,
like historically if it's happened, because I don't know right now.
It scares the hell out of me. Honestly, the whole
system is very fraught with peril if you write opportunities
for gaming. We also have some examples of alleged primary

(37:33):
system Shenanigan. So the proceedings of conventions follow what are
called the Roberts Rules of Order. UH. This complex set
of formalities was created by a guy named Henry Martin
Robert in a book published in eighteen seventies six. If
you have ever had the immense pleasure, the heart stopping
edge of your seat thrill of watching c SPAN and

(37:56):
what it happened upon a congressional hearing, you've seen something
like the US before. So during the convention, the first
vote is all about credentials. It uh. It establishes which
group of people will be seated convention and therefore get
to vote. So in the nineteen seventy two Democratic Convention,
the anti mcgovernment forces mounted to famous credentials challenges. Had

(38:19):
his opponents won these challenges, delegates who are not loyal
to McGovern would have been seated and had the right
to vote. As it happened, the anti mcgoverned forces lost
both challenges and Senator George McGovern won the nomination. That's
weird to think about, right, the vote of credentials. I
don't know. To me, that's so strange and outdated, it seems,

(38:42):
but maybe it still makes sense when you're inside the system.
I don't know. Yeah, that's the thing about tradition, man uh.
In some ways there's a proportional relationship, Like the more
irrelevant or outdated a tradition comes, the more people prize it,
you know what I mean. And then their second vote
will be about the rules under which the convention will operate.

(39:02):
And this happens every time they have a convention. Both
the d n C and r n C UH prepare
drafts of this, but just before the conventions, there's an
internal Conventions Rules Committee vote on the rules that get
sent to the convention. I know this is confused, it
I know, I'm saying the word convention like every third
wording here. But this Convention Rules Committee, or I'll just

(39:25):
call it the CRC, is generally controlled by forces loyal
to various candidates. So in nineteen seventy six, Ronald Reagan
wage a rules fight in his attempt to deny President
Gerald Ford the Republican nomination, and Ted Kennedy did a
similar thing when he wanted to deny President Jimmy Carter,
uh the you know, victory at the convention. Both times

(39:46):
those guys lost. But it's interesting to see how you
can essentially use the rules, these vast crazy rules that
exist within these conventions, kind of bend them if you
want to, or at least attempt to get your way
and go around all of the election processes themselves. So
what are the pros and cons of primaries? Well, it

(40:09):
seems to me that um the winner ultimately in these
reindeer games. To borrow a quote from you and a
popular Christmas song, um, oh it's I think. There's also
a film called Reindeer that's true. I didn't really, I think,
have much to do with reindeer. I think I just
had to place in the snow or something. And anyway,

(40:29):
and the parties, the parties, parties, party all the time.
Party over here, party over there with a capital with
your hands in the air, you know. And there are
only two large parties in the current in the current
political climate of the US. Now, that's why I say
other parties don't exist. They're libertarian parties, they're green parties.
There are socialist parties, right, but you're not going to

(40:53):
see them really swinging, uh, really not getting anything out
of the park. Right. When it comes down to it,
odds are overwhelmingly likely that uh, there will be a
Democrat or a Republican in office. And we are in
a pretty interesting time right now where we are seeing
some pretty serious divisions within the two parties, some very

(41:16):
serious um kind of problems facing them in terms of uh,
you know, being considered um legitimate, I guess is the
word i' leaving. I mean there, we were definitely far,
far far away from having another viable party. But there
have been so many little moments this the cycle within
the Republican Party, for example, where they have this what

(41:37):
many would have called a fringe candidate rising up in
the ranks and basically wiping all of their other picks
off of the map, just mopping the floor with And
a similar thing happened in Democratic parties because Sanders would
be considered, I guess by it's difficult because he's been
in government service for a long time, right, so he's

(41:57):
not exactly an outside It's still kind of a dark
horse in terms of coming in in the final hour
and just you know, rising to the point that honestly
Obama did back when he ran against Clinton the first time,
you know, and he is I just can't imagine the
way the Clinton campaign was looking at that's like not again,
you know, and I mean the way it looks now,

(42:18):
it looks like that's not gonna happen. But there was
a whole lot of contention within the Democratic Party where
the chairman, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who had been involved with
the Clinton campaign, looked to be showing some favoritism towards
Clinton over Sanders. And there, you know, was the whole
lawsuit where they had deprived the Sanders campaign of their

(42:39):
voter records or like there you know, the data that
was rightfully their's and Sanders actually had to sue that
the d n C and then they ultimately got them back.
But I just think it's interesting. It almost seems like
this system is starting to fail these parties, and we're
sort of seeing the result of the the scene exactly.

(43:01):
We're sort of starting to see the gradual breakdown of
the system. And what's what's the alternative? What do you do?
You know? The alternative is, you know, maybe we have
more than two giant parties that control who decides that
it is it the people? You know, that's a great question,
and unfortunately no I think that might be a story

(43:23):
for another day. But if you plan to run for president,
listeners right to us and let us know your policies, right,
let us know what you're what, let us you know what.
I keep pushing this, but this is for me. I'm
all about the issues. You know what I mean? You
go tell me. I'm I'm all about the issues. Uh.
And the sandwich thing is is really important to me,

(43:45):
which is why I'm casting a vote for Noel the
Madman Brown. Yeah. Well, I I say that a euro
is a sandwich. That's my position. There are some who
would who would oppose me, They will be crushed. They
would be crushed, right, and we're aside from the crushing
that is imminent and imminent. Uh. Today we are ending

(44:08):
on a question after looking at the primaries opportunities for
Skullduggery and Shenanigan's here. Uh, do you think that they
are a better system than direct voting without party affiliation? Right?
Are these here too? Uh? Are Are they here to
organize and focus and direct a consensus or are they

(44:33):
there to simply stabilize the existence of an establishment that
primaries were originally created to destroy. I think that's it's
a long question, and I apologize for the run run on,
but it's a question worth asking, and we would like
to hear from you to illustrate this point. Of course,
that means it's time for shut utgona asking. Our first

(44:58):
shoutout goes to Hammer from Austin. What an epic name? Uh?
He said in reference to the Gin episode. Noel, you
misquoted a line from Aladdin? What a jerk? They cut
off your ear if they don't like your face? And
Noel said, hand, which got me thinking about censorship and Disney,
who definitely have their skeletons in the closet. Would you

(45:18):
guys consider doing a Disney episode. There's a Snopes page
a mile long for Disney and a lot of that
stuff is true. Um, yeah, man, we should do that.
No one dies on Disney property, right, not officially? Yeah? Uh.
And number we should bring in Holly Fry. Yeah we
should Holly five from our pure podcast stuff you missed
in history class. She has quite the Disney Officionano. I

(45:41):
think we I think we're all in agreement where we're
gonna do. We should have both of them in. Dude,
maybe we could just have them do an episode of
the show. We'll take a k. We can go to
David Busters. All right. So Number two sit the psychopath
at our Nick Baker right, sim And says, really enjoyed
the Gin episode. I'd wish for this sweet release of

(46:04):
death and see what happens. That would be his wish,
interesting wish, And we had a lot of a lot.
You know. I want to take a second to and
thank everybody who checked out the Gin episode on YouTube
and on here on the audio podcast however you're listening
to it, because no, Matt, as you guys know, I was,

(46:25):
I was a little bit apprehensive and oh maybe had
an overly long disclaimer on it. Well, you know, I mean,
just a little peak behind the curtain. When we do
these episodes, we all listen to them, we go through
and decide if there's anything we want to say differently
or or cut out. We don't usually do much, but
Ben was pretty concerned about this when I wanted us
to listen with extra you know, sensitive ears, and ultimately

(46:47):
nothing came out. And I think it's fine. I think
it was a great episode. Well, yeah, it's because whenever
we do a topic that touches on religion, of course
we want to do so in a respectful way. Your
beliefs are your own, and it is not our job
to tell you what to believe. It's really not anyone's
job to tell you what to believe, in my opinion,
but you know, again, maybe that's just my belief. So

(47:09):
it was like a pastor, and then it's kind of
your job to tell people what to believe. That's there
are a lot of there are a lot of reasons
why I can't be a pastor. But but I want
to thank everybody who on YouTube, on Twitter, in the email,
on the Facebook who wrote to us because we were

(47:30):
surprised by uh by like the supportive nature of it,
you know, and we really appreciate that because this is
your show as much as it is ours. Thanks for
writing Sith Psychopath. Finally, we have one from Eric am
from Facebook. You guys shouldn't make an episode on Prince's death.
A lot of people think he was killed for talking

(47:51):
about kim Trails, FEMA, cami at Center. This came up
on the Facebook live we did yesterday. UM. And that's
one thing I know that he definitely spoke about those issues, um,
as has Tim Robbins lately. I saw somebody else famous
in the press, uh that was was talking about those issues.
I have to look into it. Maybe I'm wrong about
Tim Robins, but um, there was another Prince related conspiracy

(48:15):
theory that came up, um, right before he passed. His
decades long battle with Warner Brothers over ownership of his
back catalog finally was resolved. Uh. And a lot of
reissues are in the works. And I don't know if
what you guys think, but a lot of times when
famous singers die and they have a big back catalog,

(48:36):
that means a lot of money, you know. We just
saw this with Bowie's records got his first number one
Bowie did, and you know, Prince h He's got two
number one songs on the billboards right now, a purple
Rain and I can't remember what the other one is,
but saying a lot of money to be made so
interesting that people would correlate those two, but I can

(48:58):
see why, um so yeah, I I think that's probably
worthy of an episode. We did do a celebrity death
conspiracy episode of well Back, which is a lot of fun.
That's one of my favorites because I'm particularly into you know,
lore surrounding musicians and musical soul. Well you know, actually,
you know, I'm kind of conflating. We didn't want on
on the music and the occult, which there's a lot
of connections there too, So I think I would say

(49:20):
listen to those two together. There are a lot of fun.
I love the story told about Bowie and the Witch. Yeah,
the White Witch, the White Witch. Uh, you do check
that one out if you haven't had a chance yet,
Thanks for writing. Do you want a shout out? If so,
take a page from Uh, take a page from your
fellow listeners and drop us line on Facebook Twitter or

(49:41):
our email. Uh, and this concludes, gosh, so really fast.
I know, guys, before we so really fast. I note
before we get out of here, guys, nol. I wanted
to bring something up with you. Shoot, if you don't mind,
just a quick note here. Do you remember something you
talked about in the Panama Papers episode something about an

(50:02):
address in Delaware? Why do you mean twelve on nine
North Orange Street, Wilmington, Delaware. Yes, precisely, it's the thing
you mentioned. Was the the official address for over two
hundred and eighty five thousand companies. Well, we've got some news. Uh,
it's the address of Walmart, Coca Cola, Apple. There are
just a few examples of these, fortune every credit card. Well,

(50:27):
according to the Guardian story that just came out, it's
also home to companies that were started by two of
the current presidential hopeful candidates, both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. Apparently,
Trump has several companies registered there, including Trump International Management
Court and in Right after Clinton left the office of

(50:51):
Secretary of State, she set up z F S Holdings, LLC. And,
according to a spokesman for the Clinton campaign, it was
it up when it was set up to manage her
book and speaking income. You know, the controversies we've been
hearing so much about all the money Hillary Clinton was
paid by for going and speaking for the financial sector.

(51:13):
Well apparently that's where it went. Uh. The spokesman said
no federal, state, or local taxes were saved by the
Clintons as a result of this structure. I just thought
it was interesting to have those two episodes kind of
smashed together right here. Uh. Any thoughts. Did you know
the Delaware has no sales tax, absolutely zero zero, one

(51:36):
of five states. I mean, I I bring that up
because I've been trying to figure out what the deal
is why it's so so attractive as a tax haven
within our country. And I know that's one reason, um,
but there are others, and so there has to be
more reasons. Apparently the state has an eight point seven
flat corporate income tax. Maybe that's a big deal, um,
but you know, according to this Daily Finance dot com

(51:58):
article I'm looking at, that actually leads to the fourth
highest tax collection in the country, and so combined with
personal income tax, that is what allows Delaware to charge
no sales tax. Do you do you want to do
a Delaware episode? Now? A little bit. I think we
should just do one on that place, all right, And
to do that we are going to head out for today.

(52:20):
Thank you so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed
this episode. If you want to learn more about super
delegates and political primaries, then check with our buddy Josh Clark.
He wrote some nifty articles about that on the website
how stuff works dot com. You can also visit the
official Republican Convention website as well as the Democratic Convention

(52:43):
website and get your news right from the source. Do
be aware, of course, that it's going to be a
little slanted a little bit right in the meantime, of course,
if you have suggestions for upcoming topics, if you have
response to this, if you have an answer to the
question should do primaries help more than they harm? Then

(53:04):
write to Matt Noel and I directly. You can hit
us up on Facebook, hit us up on Twitter. Where
conspiracy stuff at both of those and what do you
do if you have something that just don't it's too
dense for a hundred and forty characters, it's too real
for a Facebook post. You could compose an electronic message
and point it to the address conspiracy at how stuff

(53:28):
works dot com,