On today’s episode, Jason is joined by USA Today Sports columnist and author Christine Brennan to promote her upcoming book, ‘On Her Game: Caitlin Clark and the Revolution in Women’s Sports’. During the conversation, Brennan discusses how Clark first exploded on the scene as a collegian at Iowa, what about Clark’s game that makes her so captivating, whether or not it matters that Clark is a white player dominating against a mostly Black league, why there seems to be so much misplaced jealousy towards Clark across the WNBA, what led to Clark’s Olympics snub, and much more!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Straight Fire with Jason McIntyre.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
What is up Straight Fire, fam, It's me Jason McIntyre,
Straight Bowyer for Friday, June the twenty seventh. We got
a great podcast today, folks. Not a lot happened in
the sports world, but recently I spoke to Christine Brennan,
author of a new book, Oh Yeah, on her game,
(00:31):
Kitlin Clark in the Revolution in Women's Sports. So we
have a lengthy, awesome interview with Christine Brennan, who dives
deep into Kitlin Clark, all the hate she was getting
around the league, how the league was ill prepared to
handle her, the Olympic snub. I mean it was, I mean,
it was all really really interesting last year, and Christine
Brennan puts it into this new book that she's got.
(00:51):
It's going to be a bestseller. It is out, I
believe within the next week. And I spoke to her recently,
so we'll talk about that real quick. From a housekeeping notes,
your boy hung another banner out here in California thirty
five and up league. We go undefeated, win the championship.
This is a tea quick backstory. Nobody cares about this,
(01:14):
absolutely nobody cares except for like the fifteen people who
go to my gym that listen to this and really
get crack up and come up to me telling me
how much they laugh at this stuff. So we joined
this thirty five and up league, and then I had
to go to Japan for spring break. So I had
our team of ten and I submitted. I basically told
our guy here, here's what we're doing. Submit these names.
(01:35):
So he submits ten, and while I'm in Japan, he
adds two dudes. The roster limits ten. So I come back.
I'm sorry, I'm in Japan. I remember being on the
bullet train. I think we had just left Tokyo. Oh no,
we had just left Kyoto. We're on a bullet train.
And I start getting texts. Hey, j Mac, you got
to talk to you about the league. You guys try
(01:56):
to have twelve people. This isn't gonna work. From the commissioner,
who's a great guy, and his daughter is the number
six recruit in the country in the rising sophomore class.
She is amazing at basketball. I see her play like
I'm not lying. She's the best women's basketball player I've
seen up close. I mean, I've seen WNBA players, but like,
this girl's incredible. So anyways, so we now have twelve
(02:19):
players when the roster limits ten. The guys like, come on,
how could you guys do this? So I get upset
at my guy, how could you do this? So we
have to basically chop the twelve and a half and
then each of us has to add guys. That's the
only fair way to do it. We couldn't, but we
couldn't cut any of the dudes that we already committed,
so the Great Foxes kind of had to split up,
(02:39):
and then we had to get six and six, and
then we added some dudes and they added some dudes.
Ends up. Of course, we were the two best teams,
although they didn't have guys show up all the time,
so they lost a few games. Anyways, we meet in
the semifinals Monday. While I'm in Arizona. I had we
already beat them in a close game, the only team
to lead us in the second half all season. I
tell one of my guys, hey man, FaceTime me for
(03:01):
the end of the game. You know, I just want
to see it. I'm at dinner in Arizona with you know,
the team, and all of a sudden, I get FaceTime.
I'm like, why, Oh, the game I totally forgotten. So
he's like, oh, we're up seven with about a minute left.
I'm like, all right, sweet, out of the blue boom,
they hit a three, cut it to four. Next possession,
we don't score, they score. It's down to two with
(03:23):
thirty seconds left. I'm like, oh my gosh, it's this real.
We're trying to inbound the ball, we turn it over.
They get a layup, tie game with like ten seconds left.
I'm like, oh my gosh. I actually considered flying back
from Arizona to La for the game because it's against friends, right,
opted against it, thinking we're fine because we had everybody
except me and this guy on our team who's who's
(03:46):
like a doctor of some kind. Draw He's like six
to three, so you know he's a good basketball player.
He drives and scores at the buzzer. Pretty cool move,
and I was like, oh sweet, so I celebrate. Then
one of our guys was telling his son, who plays
point guard on the local high school team, Yeah, this guy,
he was really good. He had a lot of points.
Let me look him up at the internet. I didn't
(04:06):
even know this, but the guy who scored the game
winner was a D three star, scored two thousand points
for his college in Colorado, and he's really really good anyway,
So we play in the championship game and we kind
of roll. Matt Liner hit three threes in a row.
If you look on my ig stories, Liner just cooked,
and we pulled away in the second half and beat him.
So I was able to hang a banner last night.
(04:29):
So I missed most of the NBA Draft. I get
home and I'm like trying to go down. It's funny
if you go to Wikipedia and you just look at oh,
let me look at the picks. Okay, Fleming a good pick, Okay,
Johnny Brew, Oh yeah, to the Sixers. So that's fine.
But then if you go to ESPN for the draft,
you have to look closer because apparently like half of
(04:50):
the second round was traded. I was stunned. I was like,
is this real? Almost every it felt like every other
pick was traded. So like the Lakers, according to Wikipedia,
got this dude, Lachlan Orblick from the NBL in Australia.
It's like, oh great. Then I go to ESPN. No,
he was traded to Chicago. So who do the Lakers
get Oh, they got thero the young kid from Arkansas
(05:13):
who actually look pretty good in limited moments, but he's
kind of a tweeter, can't really shoot, But holy hell,
is the athletic an upside play? But you have to
like Different websites are struggling to capture what happened in
the draft because there were so many trades. So I'm
not going to dive deep. There's really nothing in the
second round, So enjoy the interview with Christine Brennan. The
(05:36):
book is on her Game, Caitlin Clark and the Women
and the Revolution in Women's Sports.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
You know a guy, Jason likes to think he knows
everything when it comes to sports.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
I know what sports fans want, but.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
For everything he doesn't, he knows the guy who does.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Let's just say I know a guy who knows the
guy who knows another guy.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
All right, let's welcome into Fire a first time guest
on the podcast, and oh boys, she might have the
sports book of the summer. Christine Brennan, a longtime USA
Today columnist, has a new book out titled On Her Game,
Caitlin Clark and the Revolution in Women's Sports. Christine, how
are you?
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Oh? I'm great, Jason, thanks for having me. How are
you doing. I'm excellent.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Thanks for sending me the book. It's going to make
for great summer reading. It just so happens. Kaitlin Clark's
in the news kind of sort of often recently, Christine,
I mean, it is such a massive story. She has
hit this league. Like a comment. Let's start from the beginning. Obviously,
you've done a lot of books before, and you you
covered everything for USA today. I'm just curious, what were
(06:43):
the origins of this of this book on Kitlin Clark.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Jason, I'm going to say it started in my kitchen.
And I'm not one of those women. You know the
old line about women in the kitchen, right, you do
not want me in the kitchen. I mean, I'm not
a cook, right, It's it's you know, order out or restaurants, whatever.
But I was. I was aware of Caitlin Clark her
sophomore year at Iowa. But I was also I'm fortunate
(07:09):
to cover the Olympics, so like I'm at the Beijing Olympics,
the Winter Olympics in twenty twenty two, with massed up
being tested every you know, COVID, We're all in the
midst of it, when she had some monster game against
Michigan that people kind of I think was a moment
people saw I missed that because I was, you know,
halfway around the world happily so and so now it's
(07:29):
her junior year. It's February of twenty twenty three, and
my whole I went to Northwestern, but my siblings, all
three siblings and a brother in law and niece all
went to Indiana. And the Indiana women's basketball team was
number two in the country and they're playing Iowa. I
knew Kaitlyn Clark was on the team obviously, and I
(07:49):
was watching on my iPad and at the very end
of that game, Indiana's up by one and I was
got a second and a half, and of course they're
inbounding to Caitlin and she breaked free and it's kind
of sideways and one leg askew, and you know, just
heaving the ball kind of from the parking lot and
it goes in and they won the game, and all
(08:11):
of a sudden, you know, she's going crazy and the
place is going crazy. I think they win by one,
So may have my numbers off a little on that,
but bottom line is, you know, it's just this moment
and ESPN's showing highlight after highlight after highlight. And I've
very lucky. I've covered a lot. I've been around the
world a lot, covered super Bowls, you know, Olympics, Wimbledon's
(08:33):
Daytona five hundred. I mean, I've been very fortunate. I
found myself kind of weirdly watching it over and over again,
like what had I just seen? My family is we're
texting same thing, friends, like texting me, did you just
see that? It is just a February Big Ten basketball game?
(08:53):
And I kind of at that moment like this is interesting,
And for me it was really I think informative to
not be on pres row. Not that press row changes it,
but you know, there's a way of kind of being
on press row, like you're racing on deadline, right, You've
done all this kind of stuff. It's sound, getting the
locker room out of the locker room, whatever, and it
maybe makes it a little more just work or more
(09:15):
like I've seen this before versus kind of watching it,
you know on this iPad. Wow, that was really something,
and I think that helped inform me. Once this Kitlin
Clark thing started getting going of just how big a
deal she is and how people I was an observer.
I wasn't. I wasn't a fan. I was just watching.
(09:35):
But it's observers, fans, people in their homes starting to
catch on to this, and all of a sudden, the
TV ratings once she and Iowa against LSU nine point
nine million watching. And then the next year when she
takes Iowa back to the women's final four and the
final game, improbably that Iowa team should you know, was
not expected to get anywhere near that, and then they
(09:56):
end up with eighteen point nine million viewers for the
women's final, and the next night the men have four
million fewer. The first time ever the women's on the
NCAA beats the men by four million. And the women
were in the afternoon on network ABC, but afternoon versus
nighttime studying, no matter what the what the comparison is.
(10:19):
And I think that really kind of showed me and
started me on this, you know, kind of following her,
keeping an eye on or not not excluding other things,
but from a different point of view. I finally wrote
a column about the Olympics. I thought they should absolutly
put her on the team and should she stay for
a fifth year. She had the COVID opportunity to have
the fifth and I thought, you know, she probably wouldn't,
(10:42):
but you know, no one's more loved than Caitlin Clark
and Iowa for that fifth year. I wrote that in
February of twenty twenty four, So that's the first column
I wrote almost a year later, and then started writing
a few more columns. And as interest was growing, as
people were trying to minimize her, IS got Diana dross
Is saying not the nicest things and other and Sheryl
(11:04):
Swoops strange things, and you know, started to really kind
of cover it more. And then finally literally I met her.
I covered a game or two in Indiana when the
Olympic swimming trials were in Indianapolis. If they'd not been there,
I wouldn't have been at the Fever Games. And I
went over to those five blocks away from Lucas Oil
and the swimming and started, you know again, wrote a
(11:27):
couple of columns and did get a chance to meet
her and have a you know, five minute chat off
the record, just you know, got finally meeting this person,
and she was thanking me for my coverage and I'm
thanking her for the greatest show in sports and anything.
One one thing led to the next, and it was
just an idea and an editor and I were talking
at Scribner, and sure enough I had a book deal
(11:48):
and I was writing a book after I got back
from the Paris Olympics, and just go that that point,
I'm just going right to Indy and just following the
team and asking Caitlin Clark questions, what I get a
chance anything, nothing's off limits, no holds barred, journalistic book,
you know, not authorized, but Caitlin certainly was incredible in
answering anything I asked her, And of course the coaching
(12:12):
staff and the practices I was in and all the
other things that come with writing a book about a
moment and a time and also reporting the heck out
of it and having breaking news in the book. So yeah, truly,
I know that's a long answer, but it all started
with watching on my iPad, Yeah, and seeing something that
even in this stage of my career, Jason covering Tiger
(12:33):
Woods the length of his career covering Olympics, and Michael
Phelps and Katie Lidecki and some Moan Biles and you know,
Carl Lewis back at the eighty four Olympics in LA.
There was something about this kid and the way she
was shooting and what was happening that was truly intriguing
to me. And obviously, well clearly I'm not alone in
the country as people have fallen obviously in love with
(12:55):
everything about her, as I've of course continued to cover
her journalistically.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, so she those names you just mentioned are like
Mount Rushmore type names, but I think you're probably right.
She's headed there. That season you're talking about, that was
the one where they met LSU in the title game, right, Yeah,
that was hERG you here because I remember we were
on my kids at spring break. We were in Hawaii
and my wife and daughter. My daughter plays hoop, so
we had gotten into Caitlin Clark a little bit. We
(13:22):
start following this and we're in Hawaii. It's the middle
of the day and we're like, all right, we got
to get to a TV and we went to like
the bar next to the pool, and we're like, can
you put the the LSU game on? And we're watching
it while in Hawaii on spring break, Like, I my
family won't let me do that for regular sports, Okay,
this was a unique situation and Clark, she's been basically
(13:44):
the biggest deal in women's sports. I know people don't
want to hear this, but women's team sports. Ever, can
we say that? Or Christine? Is that out of bounce?
Speaker 3 (13:52):
No, definitely, women's team sports. Absolutely nothing even close. And
I think it's important to say, and I know you
did say women's team sports because tennis kind of is
in its own right. And when you've got Althea Gibson
breaking the color barrier in the fifties, I mean, that's
incredible what she did winning a few Grand Slam tournaments
(14:12):
as an American woman, a black American woman, way way
way back, and then of course Billy Jean King and
Chris Evert and Martina and Abertilova, and then the last
twenty five years Venus Williams and Serena Williams extraordinary and
the equal mont prize money that Billy Jean King got
in seventy three at the US Open, when it took
another quarter century for the other three Grand Slams to
(14:35):
have equal prize money. So yes, you kind of have
put tennis in its own category. But it's also an
individual sport and it's also not a sport where there's
a home game every other day or you know leagues. Yeah, yeah, right,
so in terms of league, you know, what do we
build on as kids growing I grew up in the
suburbs of Toledo and we were I was following the
Detroit Tigers and we had season tickets to the Toledo
(14:55):
mud Hens, and every day in the newspaper you can
see the standings, you know, my Triple A mud Hens,
and then the Tigers where the parent club. And then
you know, and you'd follow the NBA, you'd follow the NFL,
the standings, you know who's playing where, you know, where
are these games? You know, that's that's the backbone of
American sports, and that's how kids start watching sports, cheering
(15:18):
for their hometown team or you know, falling in love
with the Pittsburgh Steelers or the Miami Dolphins or whatever
it might be. Well, women's sports has not never been
a player in that space, right, it's never They've tried,
but it just never has caught on. And you know,
we have a male dominated mainstream sports media. It's tough
(15:39):
to crack. Got a very very you know, heavily packed,
you know, sports landscape and you know, to try to
then wedge another sport in that's hard. You know. The
WNBA gets started in nineteen ninety seven after the success
at the ninety six Atlanta Olympics, the gold medal there,
and and you know, they actually had some really big
(16:00):
crowds in Detroit. They had some nice TV ratings when
there were only three or four channels back then. But
in general it was ignored. It was given short shrift.
You know, newspapers would put the summer intern on it. Yeah,
you know. The idea, as you know, is to keep
the arenas open. A lot of these owners were NBA
(16:21):
owners who wanted to have something to you know, fill
the arena in the summertime, and they'd have girls from
camp and you'd get those high pitched squeals from all
the girls in the crowd. But it never really really
caught on as much as I wanted it to, Pat
Sean and I certainly talked to editors and wrote and
talked about things on TV. I did a lot, but
(16:42):
and so many other people did too. It just never
really caught on until this kid from Iowa shows up
chucking it from the parking lot and all of a
sudden now it truly is in that major league conversation
sports conversation obviously you have every day and so many
of us have and and it truly is remarkable that
it's happened. And you know, I know a lot of
(17:04):
people this is there's a lot of friction, a lot
of controversy. What ye say it right? You got to
give credit to Caitlin Clark because attendance figures moving to
bigger arenas, selling out the arenas. You know, twenty four
regular season games last year in the WNBA had a
million or more viewers. Twenty one of the twenty four
(17:29):
of regular season featured Kitlin Clark. It was either Indiana
Fever or the All Star Game twenty one out twenty four.
You cannot deny the impact this one woman has made
on a league that so deserved the attention but never
got it.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
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listen live.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
People are and I know that Dinah Rossi doesn't want
to hear this, but for the first time in league history,
people are seeking out the WNBA, being like I want
to find this game. I want to watch this game
that's never happened before. So I guess my question would be,
what is it about Clark that has America so captivating?
It can't just be the threes. It can't just be
(18:19):
that she's from Little Indiana. It can't just be that
she's white. Like, is there one thing or maybe it's
just a ton of things combined.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Yeah, I think certainly. You know, starting from Iowa as
a launching pad is extraordinary because that is where six
on six girl basketball, which I deal with in the
book as well, you know where I talk about the
history there going back to the nineteen twenties, girls were
playing six on six basketball. What that meant was they
couldn't cross the center line, I guess because people thought
if they ran full court that they might not be
(18:49):
able to have children or not. What you know, it's
really do that. It's fascinating. So you had three defenders
and three offensive players from each team on one side
of the court, the same on the other, and girls
in high school grew up not knowing if you were
a defender, you never shot, and if you were a shooter,
you never defended. And eventually this one as great as
(19:10):
this was, and they'd fill up the des Moines Arena,
you know, the auditorium for the finals, and everyone from
It's kind of like Hoosiers, you know, everyone comes around
from the movie Hoosiers, from the state and the girls,
you know, after they put the bucket up and the
hayloft and the girls were shooting, after they did their
shores on the farm, and the teams, whatever teams won
and there was no delineation of the size of the
(19:32):
high school, just like Hoosiers, just like what Indiana had,
so you know, the little school can beat the big school.
They'd all meet in Des Moines and the cars, you know,
the caravans of people going to Des Moines for these games.
It was huge. What that tells us as ridiculous as
it was that they couldn't cross the center line. And
that changed, by the way, when Iowa girl high school
(19:53):
players were not being recruited by college coaches because you
can't how do you recruit someone that doesn't not how
to play defense? So the push started internally in Iowa
to to like some of the players obviously made it
out and Jan Jensen and Lisa Bluter, the former coach
and the current coach of both played. Jan Jensen was
(20:14):
a superstar six on six and they both played college.
But in general, most of the kids never had a
chance because they weren't playing the right game. But you've
got this attitude of love of girls' sports and love
of girls basketball at a very very early time in
our history, well before title line which was signed in
nineteen seventy two. So that's going on. I think there's
(20:34):
a mindset there. Then, I do truly believe I agree
with you. It's not just the logo threes, but the
logo threes are the kind of thing. I've got a
chapter title and on her game, and the chapter is
you can't take your eyes off her. It's a quote
from Curtis Strange to US Open Golf champion. Yeah, was
(20:58):
talking to Curtis about about Tiger Woods and Caitlin Clark
about a year ago actually for USA Today column. And
then I use some of that in the book. And
you know, he's like, you don't run to the bathroom,
don't leave the room when she's bringing the ball up.
You just never know what's going to happen. And that,
I mean, for anyone to say that is amazing for
(21:18):
you know, hey, men's golf, right kind of guys. Guys
you know, and Curtis is a great guy. I like
them a ton, but I wouldn't necessarily think that the
men's Golf World would be your number one target audience
for women's basket right. And I'm saying that with a
big smile because I like those guys a lot, But
that's not your fan base that you would think of,
(21:38):
and here it is now it is, So I think
that's it. The passing, you know this Jase and the
passes are absolutely extraordinary. Again, if she's not checking it
from the parking lot, she's literally going to pass the
ball behind her back. She's going to find someone who's open.
The players are running, like, by the way, sorry, I've
got a big storm brewing here behind in Washington. You know,
(22:03):
the players are running. Her teammates can't wait to just
run down the court. She's eyes up and she's bringing
the ball up. So it's anticipation and you can almost
if you could ever hear anticipation in a crowd, you
can hear it. In Indiana. There's something about like, you know,
people are just what's going to happen with bringing the
ball down the court. I think that's why people buy tickets,
(22:26):
take their daughters, granddaughters, their sons, their grandsons, whoever, to
the games. But I also think it's the reason people
tune in. It's just the absolute thrill of what's happening next,
which is in many ways the very definition of good entertainment.
And that's what she provides, whether she's dribbling the ball
up the court, whether she's passing or shooting. I think
(22:48):
that's it being a white woman absolutely, you know, I
mean any of us should say this. I deal with
the racial issue in the book in a big way
and talk about the history of a seventy four percent
league and the difficult times starting that league, and the
difficult difficulties that these great women like Maya Moore and
(23:10):
you know, so many others, Cheryl Swoops and others over
the years just to get attention. They got some, but
to have people take them seriously and to cover them,
you know, like a men's sport that just wasn't happening
back in the day, and so all of that I
think you put in to play and the timing was
right with a WNBA. You know, you've got a pro
(23:31):
league she can go to. Whereas like the ninety nine
Women's World Cup Soccer, which I think everyone remembers, Brandy
chest Ain womeners shook over her head. I covered that
July ten, nineteen nine in the Rose Bowl. That was huge,
and they made the team made the cover of Time, Newsweek, People,
and Sports Illustrated only time ever that one story has
made those four covers in a week ever, and that's
(23:53):
the US women's soccer team and Brandy chest Ain. Well,
that was great. And then you know, remember the nation
was just riveted these players. And basically the next time
we saw them other than some friendlies and Olympic preparation
was the Olympic Games in two thousand. I covered the
game in Melbourne for the Sydney Olympics where they started
(24:14):
their Olympic quest to theme won the silver medal, and
that was fourteen months later. Eland Clark from the moment
she plays her last college game to being drafted in
the w NBA is eight days, eight days, during which
time she was on Saturday Night Live eight days. And
the women's soccer team, which is a comparison a team
(24:36):
versus individual, but the same kind of national love, and
that team goes away for fourteen months, fourteen months, eight days.
I think that really helped to keep it going and
that fan interest could just go there's a bridge right
to the WNBA, and clearly it did go right to
the WNBA.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yeah, you know, it's weird the brushback that they're getting
or they're giving Clark. I know you taught, you interviewed
I'm sure a million people for the book. I'm mostly curious.
This seventy four percent black league is interesting. Did you
get a sense that there was I know, the word
jealousy is very polarizing, but like, there's been a lot
(25:15):
of great African American basketball players in the WNBA, A
ton of them, dozens, I'm sure Hall of Fame Cherild swooped,
and they never got this attention that Clark's getting. And
I just wonder, and I'm asking, do you think that
there is some jealousy and that's why there was so
much blowback last year and this year already for Clark.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Yeah, I do think that's that's the case. And I
do have some quotes in the book and some people
that I talked to that kind of discuss this issue.
For sure. I mean, I deal with it. I mean,
you have to deal with this and book that's an
honest portrayal of Caitlin Clark, and this time in women's
sports and in our culture and of course in the WNBA.
(25:56):
And yeah, and I think that I don't think that's
shocking to anyone, right, I mean, you know, you've been
doing something for a long time, and you've been trying hard,
and people, you know, mostly people haven't paid attention. I mean,
the TV ratings have clicked up a little, but you know,
in general, it's it's an it's been an afterthought. And
I've hated I've hated that. Oh my gosh, I worked
(26:19):
for CNN and ABC. I'm honored to do that. And
when we were talking about the NBA in the bubble
during COVID in twenty twenty and all the you know
civil you know, the social injustice and their action, the
incredible the protests and the things that the players were
doing in the NBA, I made sure when I was
(26:40):
talking to the anchor on air, just say, well, let's
also talk about the WNBA and what they're doing about
George Floyd's murder and what they're doing about Black Lives
Matter and other things like that. You know, it was like, Oh,
we're just kind of forgetting the WNBA. I'm not blaming anyone,
it's just easier to talk about the NBA and what, yeah,
as they were doing civil disobedient, you know, and and
(27:01):
just obviously on the very important topic of civil rights
and and the you know, the terrible treatment of and
murder of of some uh you know, black men and
black women, you know, because of on the you know,
by the police. So so many issues there, of course,
as we know, and George Floyd was huge, terrible, tragedy,
awful at that particular moment. And so you know, I
(27:23):
think I think it's easy to kind of go, geez,
we're never getting attention, and that's and that and and
also I think you settle into something at that point
like this is our world. Well, then here comes a woman,
obviously great player, deservedly so getting the spotlight. Maybe that
surprises some people, but as we described a few moments ago,
(27:47):
there's a lot that goes into the entertainer that Caitlyn
Clark is bringing grandma and grandpa who would never have
even known what time a w NBA game. They weren't
even known there was a w NBA game on TV.
Now are trying to figure out on their cable package
or what or they're streaming whatever. Where is that channel
so we can do? I have Prime so I can
watch the streaming. I mean people are doing that. I
(28:09):
know they are. I'm family members have been doing it
and I've found out about that. Like do we have
eye on on Archie? Where is that? Yes, I'd never
heard of that channel. I never had either, and I oh, okay,
I got there. It is even NBA TV, Like what
you know, most people probably hadn't turned that on until
they wanted to watch Caitlin Clark. Okay, Now, this is
all happening the way I look at it, and I
(28:30):
think it's very important to discuss this I have. I'm
very proud of all the people I was able to
interview in the voices that I was able to have
in the book. One of the most proud moments was
spending time talking to doctor Harry Edwards. Of course, doctor
Edwards is the renowned voice of reason of social activism
(28:55):
of obviously the issue of black athletes, and he was
in fact the impotent is for the Black Power Salute
at the nineteen sixty eight Mexico City Olympics. So doctor
Harry Edwards goes back a long way. We know each
other well, We've been on panels together at Super Bowls
and other things. And I interviewed him in August, and
(29:16):
I spent lots of time talking to him and then
texting and chatting again about this and again it's in
the book and obviously the books that could be out
in a couple of weeks. So I can't just divulge
any a ton of secrets by any but I certainly
can say that when I talk to someone like Harry
Edwards or Brianna Scurry, the goalkeeper, the black I arguably
(29:39):
not arguably just she is the most famous, the first
famous superstar black you know, black superstar on the US
women's national soccer team, the most famous soccer team on
the women's most famous women's sports team on the planet. Yeah,
Bryan Scurry, same thing. And about what the WNBA could
have done to prepare the players for this moment, not
(30:03):
because they're damsels in distress, not because they're lacking or
they're weak, or they're you know, you know, just you know,
needing help, but because this was such an unusual situation,
the w NBA getting this infusion of interest. It's incredible interest,
like just dropped on its head. You know, millions of
(30:26):
people caring about something that they didn't care about the
year before. What at I mean, we can that's a
whole other story. I mean, why do are people following?
Why do they love Kaalen? Whatever? That's we know some
of it. Is there some racial component? You bet there is.
I deal with them for sure. But that the players again,
seventy four percent black league? That what what Harry Edwards,
(30:49):
Bryanna Scurry and a few others like, why on earth
did the league not have seminars and zooms and experts
available to help the players? Again, not they're needy, but
because this is like anything we have ever seen in sports,
and be ready for it, and be ready to accept it,
(31:12):
understand it, and move forward. And again not blaming the athletes, Nope,
blaming the leadership of the WNBA for just not seeing it.
And I've got some quotes from some officials too that
are really revealing about just how unprepared the WNBA was
for the most important moment in its entire history.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
They've had poor leadership for a while. I never I'll
never forget talking to a I don't want to reveal
his name, but a former NBA player who was very
close to someone who was up for like a top
job at the WNBA, And as they're interviewing the league,
essentially was saying, like a lot of these like super
popular influencer basketball players don't want to play in the WNBA.
This was like four years four or five years ago.
(31:55):
Why because like, who wants to go on chartered flights
and do all this practice to make like no money
And I could just go on Instagram with my two
million followers and do some video and get paid to
advertise for Nabisco or whatever. And they were struggling to
get players in the league. Like that's what makes it
so weird that the league a was ill prepared and
b so many players had the disdain for Clark her
(32:18):
joining the league, Christine, wouldn't you say that? Like it
elevated everybody? Like the what is that rising tide lifts
all the boats? Isn't that what happened?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Oh? Without a doubt, absolutely, I mean, first of all,
you can see now it was in the works, but
the TV deal is four times what it was before.
Certainly Caitlin Clark and these and these incredible numbers, viewership
numbers that have you know, records of course, every you
know when the other day when her return to the
(32:48):
WNBA was the third highest rated or third highest viewed
game on ABC ever WNBA ever, Yeah, yeah, Well what
were the first two? I got in touch with ESPNPRD
them the first two Well, of course they were Kaitlin
clark Games first game of this season and won last year.
And so she's won two and three and probably four, five, six,
(33:09):
you know whatever. However, moneymore there are, but that she's
been in the point is that, yes she is. They say,
not only is she moving the needle, she is the needle.
And that that, you would say, you would think would
be a positive development, had again the leadership of the
WNBA understood what was coming. And hey, all leagues make mistakes.
(33:32):
I've I've covered the NFL, I've government Major League Baseball.
I mean we've all covered there, you know, universities, the NCAAA.
I mean, there are mistakes made by everybody. And so
I'm not even necessary being that critical of the WNB.
I'm just saying, like what should have been, what could
have been? And the voices that I have in the
book talking about that. Yeah, you know, you could kind
(33:52):
of see this coming and why not celebrate it? And
if you help everyone understand and celebrate it, then whatever
maybe jealousy or hurt feelings are just kind of uncertainty
maybe can melt away and you can understand that. Because
of Caitlyn Clark, the spotlight is on her. Well, I've
heard people say this. I'm sure you have too. It's like,
(34:13):
oh my gosh, Kelty Mitchell, what a player. Yeah, but
no one knew.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Nobody knows.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
People knew obviously now they know the same with Eliah Boston.
What an incredible player and what a great friend of Caitlin.
And the way there. I have this in the book
where they're before every game, you know, you're amazing, No,
you're amazing little and Caitlyn started it. According to the
Leah Boston I asked her, ask Lea about like, how
did that get to these lovely moments that are uplifting
(34:41):
for every girl or boy athlete to see how how
these professionals handle it and their friendship and their how
they support each other. How Caitlyn leads away on that
she's an optimist, she's a total for her charger in
terms of team and loving her teammates. You know, all
this stuff is there and and but the spotlight is
on these women, other women who are going to be
(35:02):
paid more because of it, Because of Caitlin. You've got
the bargaining agreement the CBA open. Now that's so essential
that they get more money because they get paid almost
nothing the players. Which is why Britney Grinder was in Russia.
It wasn't the ambiance and you know, hanging out with
the weather. You know, she had to go because she
wanted to supplement a very small, basically lessland quarter million
(35:25):
salary with the million bucks or so she could get
in Russia. So anyway, all this changes. Caitlin Clark is
the rising tide that lives. All boats take it and
run with it. Yeah, some players have, I mean, you know,
but I think again when we see the chief shot
from Marina Maybray, I mean, and then of course mimicking
(35:46):
the one from Kennedy Carter about a year earlier, really
within about twenty feet on that floor and almost in
the exact same spot, in the exact same arena. No,
that's right, Yeah, yeah, Cambridge and Indy, you know, like,
what on earth? What are you doing and and I'll
say this knock on wood. Thankfully of course no one
(36:07):
was injured. Yeah, in any of those skirmishes, there's a
lot and Caitlin dishes, is it out too? I mean,
we're not saying she's again wallflower that has to be protected,
But how on earth is someone like Marina Maraby? This
is a dead ball situation, comes flying in like a
freight train and knocks Caitlyn to the ground. What if she's,
you know, again knock on wood a million times? You know,
(36:27):
injured her ankle, broken arm, Like that's propic for the
league because we know when she was gone and missed
those few games with the five games with the quadrucepstrain,
we know that they lost more than half of their viewership,
literally more than half of the viewership of the WNBA.
As you know, Jason disappeared for one person. Let me,
(36:50):
you want as a player, other players, you want her
to play because that, of course helps the economic It
helps your economic future as a player.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Pretty soon they're going to start getting stuff off the
court as well marketing opportunities. But let me ask you,
this is a tough one. When you were approaching people
about the book, did anybody when you say, hey, question
about Kaitlyn Cark. Did anybody say I don't want to
talk about her. I'm not taking Caitlin Clark questions. I
don't want to contribute to the book.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
No one said necessary. I mean, I'm trying to think,
did anyone say, no, I don't want to talk about
Kaitlyn Clark. There were people that got angry with me,
and actually quite a public thing actually, and I'm happy
to just you know, go in.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Was that the Angel Reese one?
Speaker 3 (37:34):
No, that was djn A Carrington Carrington right right right
when I asked her questions that of course, actually has
nothing to do with the book. I mean I was
at that point reporting for the book. But any journalists
should have and I would have asked, I did it.
I was the one that asked after dj A. Carrington
in Game one of the playoffs Connecticut against Indiana, was trying.
(37:56):
It was swaddening at the ball and her finger end
up hitting Kitlin Clark in.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
The eye with the long fingernails, right right right.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
And and you know the Internet, which of course the
Twitter x whatever is a cesspool, no surprise, everything's running
rampant for a couple of days, and there's so many
storylines about the WNBA on social media, and you know,
millions and millions of people weighing in, jumping in blaming
djn A Carrington for trying to stick her fingers in
(38:24):
Kaitlin Clark's eyes. Kitlyn did not have a great shooting night.
She's never she said, had nothing to do with it.
She had a bit of a shiner under her eye,
and then she said she was fine the next and
had a much better game in game two, but again
said that had nothing to her credit. Kaitlin Clarkson, that
was not it, that was not the problem, and made
sure of that. And I've got that of course in
the book as well. Anyway, opportunity to interview DJE Carrington,
(38:49):
I mean journalism one on one, you have to ask,
and you have to ask specifically. That's what everyone's out
there and in fact, as you know athletes, this is
what most athletes if again, if they have been prepared
or understand what the media is, which would be something
that WNBA should probably prepare everyone for a national scrutiny
that they understand they can hit it out of the park.
(39:11):
You want that question, so then you can then go
specifically to the issue. The journalists just asked, and you
can tell everybody what the truth is and try to
finally nip all the controversy and all the confusion and
all the criticism in the butt. And that's I asked
the question. I asked to follow up. And instead of
I mean, Karenton answered it fine, but instead of instead of,
(39:34):
you know, just moving on, she got mad, Other players
got mad. It was a whole, you know, big kind
of soap opera for a day or two, with her
yell getting involved, yelling at me and two other journalists.
The next day. It's all in the book. It's it's
kind of an epilogue because I didn't I wanted to
keep it away from the magic of Caitlin Clark and
(39:56):
the storytelling. But I needed to deal with this story.
And and the Players Association actually wanted to ban me
for that question.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Oh that's right, I remember that now. The IA total nonsense.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
And you know, because this still is the United States
of America. I you know, a journalist asking questions that
called to ban me, to take my credentials, which of
course is the very essence of wanting to ban a
journalists that failed miserably. I had credentials for game one
of the finals October tenth and New York. And yeah,
(40:30):
it was just a total failure. But you know, it
just again to me, it was it almost made me sad.
Not for me. I mean, I'm doing my job, and
you know that's I've done this. You know thousands of times.
People get mad at questions all the time. I mean,
you know when I was covering the Washington football team,
the Skins, you know, in the eighties.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Oh, I remember I was a Washington Post reader growing
up in northern Virginia. You guys had, we had, I know,
Rachel Nichols a little now, but the staff you guys
had was just I mean it was like basically what
with like the twenty seven Yankees, Right, Will Bond, Coroneizer,
you were there, I think Ja Donde, right.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Jay came in and Rachel came in a little bit. Yeah,
towards I mean, yes, it's definitely towards the end. And
they were amazing interns. I mean, like that's your intern group.
But well absolutely, And Wilbond my of course college classmate
my first day freshman year, Mike Wilbon and I like
brother and sister to this day, and then we were
sitting next to each other, and yeah, so many others
(41:25):
George solom Sports it was great. But yeah, I mean
you asked tough questions. I mean, this is what you do.
You're not their friend and you're not a pr person.
You're there to be a journalist asking questions, and so yes,
people were not happy with my questions. And then you know,
there were some some coverage of that whole thing where
people who really didn't even know what I was doing
and what you know, had hardly been around me, were
(41:47):
quoted in a story like saying, I'm always asking about
Caitlin Clark, like this was a problem. I cannot tell you, Jason,
how many times covering golf, covering tiger you know, the
whole you know, the whole time is entire, you know,
a career. You know that you've got people asking questions,
and you know three or four of them are writing
Tiger Woods books, right, I mean, yet, somehow this became
(42:10):
a big deal and I'm shocked that there aren't more
Kaitlin Clark books out now. I'm thrilled, you know, mine
is coming in a couple of weeks, but you know,
like what what like again, I think the league just
clearly did a terrible job or or somebody did a
terrible job. And I do again, you know, certainly have
(42:31):
have stories and news in the book of not preparing
them to say this is what journalists do. That you've
got national scrutiny now because of Kaitlyn Clark. I don't know,
maybe you hate that, but if national scrutiny brings should
bring more money to everybody, that's not my job. That's
you know that that just comes from endorsements and whatever
(42:52):
and salaries. And somehow this turned into a terrible thing
when you're asking an athlete to answer a question, or
asking two questions that allow her to clear the air,
allow her to you know, literally hit a fat pitch
out of the park, and it's somehow it's seen as
something bad. And you know, I'll leave you with this,
(43:13):
I'd ask men that those questions, all that I've asked
Tiger was about steroid you you know, implications of steroids
or hgh use rumors that were flying around at the
masters I've talked to. I'll ask any question of anyone.
That's my job to serve the readers, the viewers, whatever.
And are we saying that women cannot handle questions that
(43:33):
men can handle. Is that what we're saying? I mean,
I was giving to me the WNBA the greatest respect
I could by treating it like the NFL. Yeah, reading
it like the Olympics, asking those same questions of women
that I, of course would ask of men that no
one would even beat an eyelash about me asking a
male athlete those questions. That was incredibly enlightening and disappointing,
(43:59):
because these and they're tough, they're strong, they can handle it.
And how this turned into something it's it's just really surprising.
Is that what we're saying in twenty twenty four that
women cannot women athletes cannot handle questions that male athletes can. Boy,
if that's what we're saying, if that's what the WNBA
Players Association is saying, my goodness, what a what a
(44:20):
sad state of affairs.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
We can wrap up Christine real quick. So the Olympic
snub of Clark. Clark seemed to handle it well, was like, hey,
I could use the time off. I went right from
college to the WNBA. But we know that that team
would have got way more coverage had they had Caitlin
Clark they still did win. I think they won by
like two in the championship. I don't know. I didn't
really follow it. I'm gonna be honest, they didn't have Clark.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
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listen live.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
In your reporting, was there anything behind the scenes from
players on the team, maybe Diana Trossi saying we don't
want her on the team. Was there any of that
that you heard?
Speaker 3 (45:06):
Certainly it was crystal clear the committee. There's a committee
of six that made the decision, but then there was
also the coach, Cheryl Reeve, who was not officially on
the committee and making the decision, but she's the head coach. Yeah.
And it doesn't even take much reporting. I mean, I
report that what this is at the time for USA
Today and now it's in the book. You know, Cheryl
(45:27):
Reeve is literally kind of going after twenty two year
old Kaitlyn Clark. By the way, who does that, middle
aged anyone, any authority figure, you know, targeting a twenty
two year old like our game's not on TV, but
you know hers is and you know, and some some
unknown person says yeah because of Kaitlyn Clark, and then
Cheryl Reeve you know, immediately or not immediately, but then
(45:49):
replies on social on Twitter, X yeah that part. I mean, like,
Caitlyn Clark is in the pool to be selected potentially
for the team, and you've got a coach on social
looking directing comments right at that person. I've never seen
anything like that. And I've covered the Olympics since eighty
four in LA and you know, that is just no
(46:09):
way to pick a team. That's no way to act.
And how that was allowed by USA Basketball beyond me.
But to answer your question, yes, there certainly was a
mood and a feeling that she was not going to
make that team, that they wanted to leave her home,
which is unbelievable. The woman that has just passed not
only all the female basketball players but the male ones,
(46:32):
pistol Pete Maravitch to be the greatest scorer in Division
I college basketball history, male or female, Such a big name,
bringing eyeballs everywhere, opening up the game to countries. I
had a Brazilian journalist come up to me at in
Paris and say, where's Caitland Clark.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
I had a British journalist who asked me at the
Masters explain the Caitlyn Clark thing to it, and he said,
I couldn't wait to see her at the Olympics. Oh
my god, what a missed opportunity be What sport doesn't
want to reach a global audience? Women's basketball had that opportunity.
That's why the NHL is in the Olympics, the Winter Olympics,
That's why the NFL plays overseas. You want to reach people. Now,
(47:13):
for those who say, well, her stats weren't good, well,
statistics on the day it happened. I broke the news
on June seventh into the morning of June eighth, and
her statistics were better than Diana Tarassi's and some of
the other guards that they picked. So this notion she
was playing poorly is just wrong. It is just absolutely wrong.
(47:33):
And I wanted to get to the bottom of why
several reporters felt this way and wanted to highlight negative,
be much more negative about Caitlin Clark and minimizing her
play when she was already playing so much better than
most people thought she would and would. And obviously a
lot of the reporting indicated. So there I did not
(47:55):
find a conspiracy. I do not have a conspiracy that
they were all in cohudes. But consider this. On June sixth,
Geno Arima, who I like very much and known them
for a long time, get along with them. Of course,
the legendary Yukon coach, just when his twelfth national title.
He goes on Dan Patrick and he talks about the
delusional fan base, you know, following Kaitlyn Clark. Who would
(48:19):
ever say that if you've got new fans, you accept them.
Roger Goodell calling some of the nutty fans that show up,
you know, bare chested and buffalo and minus twenty degree delusional. No,
you say thanks for buying tickets and buy you know,
jerseys and come back. So there was this negativity from
(48:41):
Gino that that occurred. And then the next day you
have later that night you have the decision, you get
the news comes out that Kaitlin Clark is not on
the Olympic team. I am not saying that is a
quot pro quo. I'm not saying timing is interesting though,
but I think it does show the mood of the
basketball establishment. And I do say that in the book
and talk about how it's just so strange, instead of
(49:04):
going this is the like, yipe, this is the greatest
opportunity we've ever had. Let's go, let's get all of
these players again. To your point, I've covered all these
Olympic basketball games. I've been there. The press section is
mostly tumbleweeds. A few other reporters. Most of the guys
that cover the Olympics would laugh like, oh where you go.
I said, I'm going to the Women's Olympic you know,
(49:25):
basketball gold medal game, and they're like, why would you
do that. They're going to win. You've got stories on
you know, soccer and whatever. And so they didn't get
the coverage they deserved. All of those great players, Asia Wilson,
so many others that deserve more attention did not get it.
The TV ratings went down, not up. The media coverage,
(49:47):
to your point, not there paultry coverage. I predicted it.
I hate to say I was right. I wish I'd
been wrong. It was right, and it was just an
incredible missed opportunity. At the key moment, you bring collegians,
you know, Rebecca Lobo made the team, Diana Tarsci, this
is the collegian you bring at this moment, and they
(50:08):
failed miserably. And again I think certainly the undercurrent of
feeling towards Caitlin Clark by the basketball establishment cannot be ignored.
And clearly that committee, who's Don Staley and others, they
made the choice we do not want Caitlin Clark on
our Olympic team. Can you believe how history, not only
(50:28):
right now, but how history will judge that one? And
they paid the price in terms of ratings and interest,
And it's just a shame because what could have been
for that team with the spotlight that could have been
shining on it. Not only for them, but can you
imagine girls in Africa who never got a chance to
watch one's basketball Kitlin Clark's on TV, but she's hardly
(50:51):
playing right. She would have been on the bench most
a lot of it. But now you're seeing maybe five
black women playing for the United States and you're a
black you know, a little black girl obviously in Africa?
How inspiring is that You're not going to get that
game on TV unless you've got the attention magnetic COULDR
to bring that game and put that game on TV?
Speaker 2 (51:12):
Could have been like the ninety two dream team where
Jordan and company basically were signing autographs with their opponents
after the game, and that really is made basketball a
global game. Right. Were you at that Olympics?
Speaker 3 (51:23):
I was. I was. I was actually covering a lot
of swimming and gymnastics in track and fields, so I
was probably at some of the great track and field
but yeah, I was there, and I remember I was
at the press conference. At first press conference, it was incredible.
Caitlyn Clark, right, Jason would have been a personal version
of the dream team, individualized version of that, and they
(51:44):
decided no. Truly the worst Olympic team decision I have
selection I have ever seen in my forty one years
of covering the Olympics, and frankly appalling that the powers
that be in USA Basketball and the US Olympic and
Paralympic Committee allowed that kind of behavior from Cheryl Reeve
(52:04):
and others to continue. Just absolutely not the way an
Olympic team should be selected.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
All right, Christine Brennan, the book on her game, Caitlin
Clark and the Revolution in Women's Sports, it's out July.
I believe eight.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
You said that's correct. People can pre now and I'll
be going around the country, a lot of stops in
Iowa and Indiana that put it all on social media.
Hopefully I'll see a lot of folks.
Speaker 2 (52:27):
Out there gonna be big congratulations on all your success
and great career and keep up the good work. Christine,
Well you
Speaker 3 (52:32):
Too, Jason, Thanks so much for having me
This is Straight Fire with Jason McIntyre.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
What is up Straight Fire, fam, It's me Jason McIntyre,
Straight Bowyer for Friday, June the twenty seventh. We got
a great podcast today, folks. Not a lot happened in
the sports world, but recently I spoke to Christine Brennan,
author of a new book, Oh Yeah, on her game,
(00:31):
Kitlin Clark in the Revolution in Women's Sports. So we
have a lengthy, awesome interview with Christine Brennan, who dives
deep into Kitlin Clark, all the hate she was getting
around the league, how the league was ill prepared to
handle her, the Olympic snub. I mean it was, I mean,
it was all really really interesting last year, and Christine
Brennan puts it into this new book that she's got.
(00:51):
It's going to be a bestseller. It is out, I
believe within the next week. And I spoke to her recently,
so we'll talk about that real quick. From a housekeeping notes,
your boy hung another banner out here in California thirty
five and up league. We go undefeated, win the championship.
This is a tea quick backstory. Nobody cares about this,
(01:14):
absolutely nobody cares except for like the fifteen people who
go to my gym that listen to this and really
get crack up and come up to me telling me
how much they laugh at this stuff. So we joined
this thirty five and up league, and then I had
to go to Japan for spring break. So I had
our team of ten and I submitted. I basically told
our guy here, here's what we're doing. Submit these names.
(01:35):
So he submits ten, and while I'm in Japan, he
adds two dudes. The roster limits ten. So I come back.
I'm sorry, I'm in Japan. I remember being on the
bullet train. I think we had just left Tokyo. Oh no,
we had just left Kyoto. We're on a bullet train.
And I start getting texts. Hey, j Mac, you got
to talk to you about the league. You guys try
(01:56):
to have twelve people. This isn't gonna work. From the commissioner,
who's a great guy, and his daughter is the number
six recruit in the country in the rising sophomore class.
She is amazing at basketball. I see her play like
I'm not lying. She's the best women's basketball player I've
seen up close. I mean, I've seen WNBA players, but like,
this girl's incredible. So anyways, so we now have twelve
(02:19):
players when the roster limits ten. The guys like, come on,
how could you guys do this? So I get upset
at my guy, how could you do this? So we
have to basically chop the twelve and a half and
then each of us has to add guys. That's the
only fair way to do it. We couldn't, but we
couldn't cut any of the dudes that we already committed,
so the Great Foxes kind of had to split up,
(02:39):
and then we had to get six and six, and
then we added some dudes and they added some dudes.
Ends up. Of course, we were the two best teams,
although they didn't have guys show up all the time,
so they lost a few games. Anyways, we meet in
the semifinals Monday. While I'm in Arizona. I had we
already beat them in a close game, the only team
to lead us in the second half all season. I
tell one of my guys, hey man, FaceTime me for
(03:01):
the end of the game. You know, I just want
to see it. I'm at dinner in Arizona with you know,
the team, and all of a sudden, I get FaceTime.
I'm like, why, Oh, the game I totally forgotten. So
he's like, oh, we're up seven with about a minute left.
I'm like, all right, sweet, out of the blue boom,
they hit a three, cut it to four. Next possession,
we don't score, they score. It's down to two with
(03:23):
thirty seconds left. I'm like, oh my gosh, it's this real.
We're trying to inbound the ball, we turn it over.
They get a layup, tie game with like ten seconds left.
I'm like, oh my gosh. I actually considered flying back
from Arizona to La for the game because it's against friends, right,
opted against it, thinking we're fine because we had everybody
except me and this guy on our team who's who's
(03:46):
like a doctor of some kind. Draw He's like six
to three, so you know he's a good basketball player.
He drives and scores at the buzzer. Pretty cool move,
and I was like, oh sweet, so I celebrate. Then
one of our guys was telling his son, who plays
point guard on the local high school team, Yeah, this guy,
he was really good. He had a lot of points.
Let me look him up at the internet. I didn't
(04:06):
even know this, but the guy who scored the game
winner was a D three star, scored two thousand points
for his college in Colorado, and he's really really good anyway,
So we play in the championship game and we kind
of roll. Matt Liner hit three threes in a row.
If you look on my ig stories, Liner just cooked,
and we pulled away in the second half and beat him.
So I was able to hang a banner last night.
(04:29):
So I missed most of the NBA Draft. I get
home and I'm like trying to go down. It's funny
if you go to Wikipedia and you just look at oh,
let me look at the picks. Okay, Fleming a good pick, Okay,
Johnny Brew, Oh yeah, to the Sixers. So that's fine.
But then if you go to ESPN for the draft,
you have to look closer because apparently like half of
(04:50):
the second round was traded. I was stunned. I was like,
is this real? Almost every it felt like every other
pick was traded. So like the Lakers, according to Wikipedia,
got this dude, Lachlan Orblick from the NBL in Australia.
It's like, oh great. Then I go to ESPN. No,
he was traded to Chicago. So who do the Lakers
get Oh, they got thero the young kid from Arkansas
(05:13):
who actually look pretty good in limited moments, but he's
kind of a tweeter, can't really shoot, But holy hell,
is the athletic an upside play? But you have to
like Different websites are struggling to capture what happened in
the draft because there were so many trades. So I'm
not going to dive deep. There's really nothing in the
second round, So enjoy the interview with Christine Brennan. The
(05:36):
book is on her Game, Caitlin Clark and the Women
and the Revolution in Women's Sports.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
You know a guy, Jason likes to think he knows
everything when it comes to sports.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
I know what sports fans want, but.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
For everything he doesn't, he knows the guy who does.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Let's just say I know a guy who knows the
guy who knows another guy.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
All right, let's welcome into Fire a first time guest
on the podcast, and oh boys, she might have the
sports book of the summer. Christine Brennan, a longtime USA
Today columnist, has a new book out titled On Her Game,
Caitlin Clark and the Revolution in Women's Sports. Christine, how
are you?
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Oh? I'm great, Jason, thanks for having me. How are
you doing. I'm excellent.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Thanks for sending me the book. It's going to make
for great summer reading. It just so happens. Kaitlin Clark's
in the news kind of sort of often recently, Christine,
I mean, it is such a massive story. She has
hit this league. Like a comment. Let's start from the beginning. Obviously,
you've done a lot of books before, and you you
covered everything for USA today. I'm just curious, what were
(06:43):
the origins of this of this book on Kitlin Clark.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Jason, I'm going to say it started in my kitchen.
And I'm not one of those women. You know the
old line about women in the kitchen, right, you do
not want me in the kitchen. I mean, I'm not
a cook, right, It's it's you know, order out or restaurants, whatever.
But I was. I was aware of Caitlin Clark her
sophomore year at Iowa. But I was also I'm fortunate
(07:09):
to cover the Olympics, so like I'm at the Beijing Olympics,
the Winter Olympics in twenty twenty two, with massed up
being tested every you know, COVID, We're all in the
midst of it, when she had some monster game against
Michigan that people kind of I think was a moment
people saw I missed that because I was, you know,
halfway around the world happily so and so now it's
(07:29):
her junior year. It's February of twenty twenty three, and
my whole I went to Northwestern, but my siblings, all
three siblings and a brother in law and niece all
went to Indiana. And the Indiana women's basketball team was
number two in the country and they're playing Iowa. I
knew Kaitlyn Clark was on the team obviously, and I
(07:49):
was watching on my iPad and at the very end
of that game, Indiana's up by one and I was
got a second and a half, and of course they're
inbounding to Caitlin and she breaked free and it's kind
of sideways and one leg askew, and you know, just
heaving the ball kind of from the parking lot and
it goes in and they won the game, and all
(08:11):
of a sudden, you know, she's going crazy and the
place is going crazy. I think they win by one,
So may have my numbers off a little on that,
but bottom line is, you know, it's just this moment
and ESPN's showing highlight after highlight after highlight. And I've
very lucky. I've covered a lot. I've been around the
world a lot, covered super Bowls, you know, Olympics, Wimbledon's
(08:33):
Daytona five hundred. I mean, I've been very fortunate. I
found myself kind of weirdly watching it over and over again,
like what had I just seen? My family is we're
texting same thing, friends, like texting me, did you just
see that? It is just a February Big Ten basketball game?
(08:53):
And I kind of at that moment like this is interesting,
And for me it was really I think informative to
not be on pres row. Not that press row changes it,
but you know, there's a way of kind of being
on press row, like you're racing on deadline, right, You've
done all this kind of stuff. It's sound, getting the
locker room out of the locker room, whatever, and it
maybe makes it a little more just work or more
(09:15):
like I've seen this before versus kind of watching it,
you know on this iPad. Wow, that was really something,
and I think that helped inform me. Once this Kitlin
Clark thing started getting going of just how big a
deal she is and how people I was an observer.
I wasn't. I wasn't a fan. I was just watching.
(09:35):
But it's observers, fans, people in their homes starting to
catch on to this, and all of a sudden, the
TV ratings once she and Iowa against LSU nine point
nine million watching. And then the next year when she
takes Iowa back to the women's final four and the
final game, improbably that Iowa team should you know, was
not expected to get anywhere near that, and then they
(09:56):
end up with eighteen point nine million viewers for the
women's final, and the next night the men have four
million fewer. The first time ever the women's on the
NCAA beats the men by four million. And the women
were in the afternoon on network ABC, but afternoon versus
nighttime studying, no matter what the what the comparison is.
(10:19):
And I think that really kind of showed me and
started me on this, you know, kind of following her,
keeping an eye on or not not excluding other things,
but from a different point of view. I finally wrote
a column about the Olympics. I thought they should absolutly
put her on the team and should she stay for
a fifth year. She had the COVID opportunity to have
the fifth and I thought, you know, she probably wouldn't,
(10:42):
but you know, no one's more loved than Caitlin Clark
and Iowa for that fifth year. I wrote that in
February of twenty twenty four, So that's the first column
I wrote almost a year later, and then started writing
a few more columns. And as interest was growing, as
people were trying to minimize her, IS got Diana dross
Is saying not the nicest things and other and Sheryl
(11:04):
Swoops strange things, and you know, started to really kind
of cover it more. And then finally literally I met her.
I covered a game or two in Indiana when the
Olympic swimming trials were in Indianapolis. If they'd not been there,
I wouldn't have been at the Fever Games. And I
went over to those five blocks away from Lucas Oil
and the swimming and started, you know again, wrote a
(11:27):
couple of columns and did get a chance to meet
her and have a you know, five minute chat off
the record, just you know, got finally meeting this person,
and she was thanking me for my coverage and I'm
thanking her for the greatest show in sports and anything.
One one thing led to the next, and it was
just an idea and an editor and I were talking
at Scribner, and sure enough I had a book deal
(11:48):
and I was writing a book after I got back
from the Paris Olympics, and just go that that point,
I'm just going right to Indy and just following the
team and asking Caitlin Clark questions, what I get a
chance anything, nothing's off limits, no holds barred, journalistic book,
you know, not authorized, but Caitlin certainly was incredible in
answering anything I asked her, And of course the coaching
(12:12):
staff and the practices I was in and all the
other things that come with writing a book about a
moment and a time and also reporting the heck out
of it and having breaking news in the book. So yeah, truly,
I know that's a long answer, but it all started
with watching on my iPad, Yeah, and seeing something that
even in this stage of my career, Jason covering Tiger
(12:33):
Woods the length of his career covering Olympics, and Michael
Phelps and Katie Lidecki and some Moan Biles and you know,
Carl Lewis back at the eighty four Olympics in LA.
There was something about this kid and the way she
was shooting and what was happening that was truly intriguing
to me. And obviously, well clearly I'm not alone in
the country as people have fallen obviously in love with
(12:55):
everything about her, as I've of course continued to cover
her journalistically.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, so she those names you just mentioned are like
Mount Rushmore type names, but I think you're probably right.
She's headed there. That season you're talking about, that was
the one where they met LSU in the title game, right, Yeah,
that was hERG you here because I remember we were
on my kids at spring break. We were in Hawaii
and my wife and daughter. My daughter plays hoop, so
we had gotten into Caitlin Clark a little bit. We
(13:22):
start following this and we're in Hawaii. It's the middle
of the day and we're like, all right, we got
to get to a TV and we went to like
the bar next to the pool, and we're like, can
you put the the LSU game on? And we're watching
it while in Hawaii on spring break, Like, I my
family won't let me do that for regular sports, Okay,
this was a unique situation and Clark, she's been basically
(13:44):
the biggest deal in women's sports. I know people don't
want to hear this, but women's team sports. Ever, can
we say that? Or Christine? Is that out of bounce?
Speaker 3 (13:52):
No, definitely, women's team sports. Absolutely nothing even close. And
I think it's important to say, and I know you
did say women's team sports because tennis kind of is
in its own right. And when you've got Althea Gibson
breaking the color barrier in the fifties, I mean, that's
incredible what she did winning a few Grand Slam tournaments
(14:12):
as an American woman, a black American woman, way way
way back, and then of course Billy Jean King and
Chris Evert and Martina and Abertilova, and then the last
twenty five years Venus Williams and Serena Williams extraordinary and
the equal mont prize money that Billy Jean King got
in seventy three at the US Open, when it took
another quarter century for the other three Grand Slams to
(14:35):
have equal prize money. So yes, you kind of have
put tennis in its own category. But it's also an
individual sport and it's also not a sport where there's
a home game every other day or you know leagues. Yeah, yeah, right,
so in terms of league, you know, what do we
build on as kids growing I grew up in the
suburbs of Toledo and we were I was following the
Detroit Tigers and we had season tickets to the Toledo
(14:55):
mud Hens, and every day in the newspaper you can
see the standings, you know, my Triple A mud Hens,
and then the Tigers where the parent club. And then
you know, and you'd follow the NBA, you'd follow the NFL,
the standings, you know who's playing where, you know, where
are these games? You know, that's that's the backbone of
American sports, and that's how kids start watching sports, cheering
(15:18):
for their hometown team or you know, falling in love
with the Pittsburgh Steelers or the Miami Dolphins or whatever
it might be. Well, women's sports has not never been
a player in that space, right, it's never They've tried,
but it just never has caught on. And you know,
we have a male dominated mainstream sports media. It's tough
(15:39):
to crack. Got a very very you know, heavily packed,
you know, sports landscape and you know, to try to
then wedge another sport in that's hard. You know. The
WNBA gets started in nineteen ninety seven after the success
at the ninety six Atlanta Olympics, the gold medal there,
and and you know, they actually had some really big
(16:00):
crowds in Detroit. They had some nice TV ratings when
there were only three or four channels back then. But
in general it was ignored. It was given short shrift.
You know, newspapers would put the summer intern on it. Yeah,
you know. The idea, as you know, is to keep
the arenas open. A lot of these owners were NBA
(16:21):
owners who wanted to have something to you know, fill
the arena in the summertime, and they'd have girls from
camp and you'd get those high pitched squeals from all
the girls in the crowd. But it never really really
caught on as much as I wanted it to, Pat
Sean and I certainly talked to editors and wrote and
talked about things on TV. I did a lot, but
(16:42):
and so many other people did too. It just never
really caught on until this kid from Iowa shows up
chucking it from the parking lot and all of a
sudden now it truly is in that major league conversation
sports conversation obviously you have every day and so many
of us have and and it truly is remarkable that
it's happened. And you know, I know a lot of
(17:04):
people this is there's a lot of friction, a lot
of controversy. What ye say it right? You got to
give credit to Caitlin Clark because attendance figures moving to
bigger arenas, selling out the arenas. You know, twenty four
regular season games last year in the WNBA had a
million or more viewers. Twenty one of the twenty four
(17:29):
of regular season featured Kitlin Clark. It was either Indiana
Fever or the All Star Game twenty one out twenty four.
You cannot deny the impact this one woman has made
on a league that so deserved the attention but never
got it.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
the nation. Catch all of our shows at Foxsports Radio
dot com and within the iHeartRadio app search FSR to
listen live.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
People are and I know that Dinah Rossi doesn't want
to hear this, but for the first time in league history,
people are seeking out the WNBA, being like I want
to find this game. I want to watch this game
that's never happened before. So I guess my question would be,
what is it about Clark that has America so captivating?
It can't just be the threes. It can't just be
(18:19):
that she's from Little Indiana. It can't just be that
she's white. Like, is there one thing or maybe it's
just a ton of things combined.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Yeah, I think certainly. You know, starting from Iowa as
a launching pad is extraordinary because that is where six
on six girl basketball, which I deal with in the
book as well, you know where I talk about the
history there going back to the nineteen twenties, girls were
playing six on six basketball. What that meant was they
couldn't cross the center line, I guess because people thought
if they ran full court that they might not be
(18:49):
able to have children or not. What you know, it's
really do that. It's fascinating. So you had three defenders
and three offensive players from each team on one side
of the court, the same on the other, and girls
in high school grew up not knowing if you were
a defender, you never shot, and if you were a shooter,
you never defended. And eventually this one as great as
(19:10):
this was, and they'd fill up the des Moines Arena,
you know, the auditorium for the finals, and everyone from
It's kind of like Hoosiers, you know, everyone comes around
from the movie Hoosiers, from the state and the girls,
you know, after they put the bucket up and the
hayloft and the girls were shooting, after they did their
shores on the farm, and the teams, whatever teams won
and there was no delineation of the size of the
(19:32):
high school, just like Hoosiers, just like what Indiana had,
so you know, the little school can beat the big school.
They'd all meet in Des Moines and the cars, you know,
the caravans of people going to Des Moines for these games.
It was huge. What that tells us as ridiculous as
it was that they couldn't cross the center line. And
that changed, by the way, when Iowa girl high school
(19:53):
players were not being recruited by college coaches because you
can't how do you recruit someone that doesn't not how
to play defense? So the push started internally in Iowa
to to like some of the players obviously made it
out and Jan Jensen and Lisa Bluter, the former coach
and the current coach of both played. Jan Jensen was
(20:14):
a superstar six on six and they both played college.
But in general, most of the kids never had a
chance because they weren't playing the right game. But you've
got this attitude of love of girls' sports and love
of girls basketball at a very very early time in
our history, well before title line which was signed in
nineteen seventy two. So that's going on. I think there's
(20:34):
a mindset there. Then, I do truly believe I agree
with you. It's not just the logo threes, but the
logo threes are the kind of thing. I've got a
chapter title and on her game, and the chapter is
you can't take your eyes off her. It's a quote
from Curtis Strange to US Open Golf champion. Yeah, was
(20:58):
talking to Curtis about about Tiger Woods and Caitlin Clark
about a year ago actually for USA Today column. And
then I use some of that in the book. And
you know, he's like, you don't run to the bathroom,
don't leave the room when she's bringing the ball up.
You just never know what's going to happen. And that,
I mean, for anyone to say that is amazing for
(21:18):
you know, hey, men's golf, right kind of guys. Guys
you know, and Curtis is a great guy. I like
them a ton, but I wouldn't necessarily think that the
men's Golf World would be your number one target audience
for women's basket right. And I'm saying that with a
big smile because I like those guys a lot, But
that's not your fan base that you would think of,
(21:38):
and here it is now it is, So I think
that's it. The passing, you know this Jase and the
passes are absolutely extraordinary. Again, if she's not checking it
from the parking lot, she's literally going to pass the
ball behind her back. She's going to find someone who's open.
The players are running, like, by the way, sorry, I've
got a big storm brewing here behind in Washington. You know,
(22:03):
the players are running. Her teammates can't wait to just
run down the court. She's eyes up and she's bringing
the ball up. So it's anticipation and you can almost
if you could ever hear anticipation in a crowd, you
can hear it. In Indiana. There's something about like, you know,
people are just what's going to happen with bringing the
ball down the court. I think that's why people buy tickets,
(22:26):
take their daughters, granddaughters, their sons, their grandsons, whoever, to
the games. But I also think it's the reason people
tune in. It's just the absolute thrill of what's happening next,
which is in many ways the very definition of good entertainment.
And that's what she provides, whether she's dribbling the ball
up the court, whether she's passing or shooting. I think
(22:48):
that's it being a white woman absolutely, you know, I
mean any of us should say this. I deal with
the racial issue in the book in a big way
and talk about the history of a seventy four percent
league and the difficult times starting that league, and the
difficult difficulties that these great women like Maya Moore and
(23:10):
you know, so many others, Cheryl Swoops and others over
the years just to get attention. They got some, but
to have people take them seriously and to cover them,
you know, like a men's sport that just wasn't happening
back in the day, and so all of that I
think you put in to play and the timing was
right with a WNBA. You know, you've got a pro
(23:31):
league she can go to. Whereas like the ninety nine
Women's World Cup Soccer, which I think everyone remembers, Brandy
chest Ain womeners shook over her head. I covered that
July ten, nineteen nine in the Rose Bowl. That was huge,
and they made the team made the cover of Time, Newsweek, People,
and Sports Illustrated only time ever that one story has
made those four covers in a week ever, and that's
(23:53):
the US women's soccer team and Brandy chest Ain. Well,
that was great. And then you know, remember the nation
was just riveted these players. And basically the next time
we saw them other than some friendlies and Olympic preparation
was the Olympic Games in two thousand. I covered the
game in Melbourne for the Sydney Olympics where they started
(24:14):
their Olympic quest to theme won the silver medal, and
that was fourteen months later. Eland Clark from the moment
she plays her last college game to being drafted in
the w NBA is eight days, eight days, during which
time she was on Saturday Night Live eight days. And
the women's soccer team, which is a comparison a team
(24:36):
versus individual, but the same kind of national love, and
that team goes away for fourteen months, fourteen months, eight days.
I think that really helped to keep it going and
that fan interest could just go there's a bridge right
to the WNBA, and clearly it did go right to
the WNBA.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yeah, you know, it's weird the brushback that they're getting
or they're giving Clark. I know you taught, you interviewed
I'm sure a million people for the book. I'm mostly curious.
This seventy four percent black league is interesting. Did you
get a sense that there was I know, the word
jealousy is very polarizing, but like, there's been a lot
(25:15):
of great African American basketball players in the WNBA, A
ton of them, dozens, I'm sure Hall of Fame Cherild swooped,
and they never got this attention that Clark's getting. And
I just wonder, and I'm asking, do you think that
there is some jealousy and that's why there was so
much blowback last year and this year already for Clark.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Yeah, I do think that's that's the case. And I
do have some quotes in the book and some people
that I talked to that kind of discuss this issue.
For sure. I mean, I deal with it. I mean,
you have to deal with this and book that's an
honest portrayal of Caitlin Clark, and this time in women's
sports and in our culture and of course in the WNBA.
(25:56):
And yeah, and I think that I don't think that's
shocking to anyone, right, I mean, you know, you've been
doing something for a long time, and you've been trying hard,
and people, you know, mostly people haven't paid attention. I mean,
the TV ratings have clicked up a little, but you know,
in general, it's it's an it's been an afterthought. And
I've hated I've hated that. Oh my gosh, I worked
(26:19):
for CNN and ABC. I'm honored to do that. And
when we were talking about the NBA in the bubble
during COVID in twenty twenty and all the you know
civil you know, the social injustice and their action, the
incredible the protests and the things that the players were
doing in the NBA, I made sure when I was
(26:40):
talking to the anchor on air, just say, well, let's
also talk about the WNBA and what they're doing about
George Floyd's murder and what they're doing about Black Lives
Matter and other things like that. You know, it was like, Oh,
we're just kind of forgetting the WNBA. I'm not blaming anyone,
it's just easier to talk about the NBA and what, yeah,
as they were doing civil disobedient, you know, and and
(27:01):
just obviously on the very important topic of civil rights
and and the you know, the terrible treatment of and
murder of of some uh you know, black men and
black women, you know, because of on the you know,
by the police. So so many issues there, of course,
as we know, and George Floyd was huge, terrible, tragedy,
awful at that particular moment. And so you know, I
(27:23):
think I think it's easy to kind of go, geez,
we're never getting attention, and that's and that and and
also I think you settle into something at that point
like this is our world. Well, then here comes a woman,
obviously great player, deservedly so getting the spotlight. Maybe that
surprises some people, but as we described a few moments ago,
(27:47):
there's a lot that goes into the entertainer that Caitlyn
Clark is bringing grandma and grandpa who would never have
even known what time a w NBA game. They weren't
even known there was a w NBA game on TV.
Now are trying to figure out on their cable package
or what or they're streaming whatever. Where is that channel
so we can do? I have Prime so I can
watch the streaming. I mean people are doing that. I
(28:09):
know they are. I'm family members have been doing it
and I've found out about that. Like do we have
eye on on Archie? Where is that? Yes, I'd never
heard of that channel. I never had either, and I oh, okay,
I got there. It is even NBA TV, Like what
you know, most people probably hadn't turned that on until
they wanted to watch Caitlin Clark. Okay, Now, this is
all happening the way I look at it, and I
(28:30):
think it's very important to discuss this I have. I'm
very proud of all the people I was able to
interview in the voices that I was able to have
in the book. One of the most proud moments was
spending time talking to doctor Harry Edwards. Of course, doctor
Edwards is the renowned voice of reason of social activism
(28:55):
of obviously the issue of black athletes, and he was
in fact the impotent is for the Black Power Salute
at the nineteen sixty eight Mexico City Olympics. So doctor
Harry Edwards goes back a long way. We know each
other well, We've been on panels together at Super Bowls
and other things. And I interviewed him in August, and
(29:16):
I spent lots of time talking to him and then
texting and chatting again about this and again it's in
the book and obviously the books that could be out
in a couple of weeks. So I can't just divulge
any a ton of secrets by any but I certainly
can say that when I talk to someone like Harry
Edwards or Brianna Scurry, the goalkeeper, the black I arguably
(29:39):
not arguably just she is the most famous, the first
famous superstar black you know, black superstar on the US
women's national soccer team, the most famous soccer team on
the women's most famous women's sports team on the planet. Yeah,
Bryan Scurry, same thing. And about what the WNBA could
have done to prepare the players for this moment, not
(30:03):
because they're damsels in distress, not because they're lacking or
they're weak, or they're you know, you know, just you know,
needing help, but because this was such an unusual situation,
the w NBA getting this infusion of interest. It's incredible interest,
like just dropped on its head. You know, millions of
(30:26):
people caring about something that they didn't care about the
year before. What at I mean, we can that's a
whole other story. I mean, why do are people following?
Why do they love Kaalen? Whatever? That's we know some
of it. Is there some racial component? You bet there is.
I deal with them for sure. But that the players again,
seventy four percent black league? That what what Harry Edwards,
(30:49):
Bryanna Scurry and a few others like, why on earth
did the league not have seminars and zooms and experts
available to help the players? Again, not they're needy, but
because this is like anything we have ever seen in sports,
and be ready for it, and be ready to accept it,
(31:12):
understand it, and move forward. And again not blaming the athletes, Nope,
blaming the leadership of the WNBA for just not seeing it.
And I've got some quotes from some officials too that
are really revealing about just how unprepared the WNBA was
for the most important moment in its entire history.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
They've had poor leadership for a while. I never I'll
never forget talking to a I don't want to reveal
his name, but a former NBA player who was very
close to someone who was up for like a top
job at the WNBA, And as they're interviewing the league,
essentially was saying, like a lot of these like super
popular influencer basketball players don't want to play in the WNBA.
This was like four years four or five years ago.
(31:55):
Why because like, who wants to go on chartered flights
and do all this practice to make like no money
And I could just go on Instagram with my two
million followers and do some video and get paid to
advertise for Nabisco or whatever. And they were struggling to
get players in the league. Like that's what makes it
so weird that the league a was ill prepared and
b so many players had the disdain for Clark her
(32:18):
joining the league, Christine, wouldn't you say that? Like it
elevated everybody? Like the what is that rising tide lifts
all the boats? Isn't that what happened?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Oh? Without a doubt, absolutely, I mean, first of all,
you can see now it was in the works, but
the TV deal is four times what it was before.
Certainly Caitlin Clark and these and these incredible numbers, viewership
numbers that have you know, records of course, every you
know when the other day when her return to the
(32:48):
WNBA was the third highest rated or third highest viewed
game on ABC ever WNBA ever, Yeah, yeah, Well what
were the first two? I got in touch with ESPNPRD
them the first two Well, of course they were Kaitlin
clark Games first game of this season and won last year.
And so she's won two and three and probably four, five, six,
(33:09):
you know whatever. However, moneymore there are, but that she's
been in the point is that, yes she is. They say,
not only is she moving the needle, she is the needle.
And that that, you would say, you would think would
be a positive development, had again the leadership of the
WNBA understood what was coming. And hey, all leagues make mistakes.
(33:32):
I've I've covered the NFL, I've government Major League Baseball.
I mean we've all covered there, you know, universities, the NCAAA.
I mean, there are mistakes made by everybody. And so
I'm not even necessary being that critical of the WNB.
I'm just saying, like what should have been, what could
have been? And the voices that I have in the
book talking about that. Yeah, you know, you could kind
(33:52):
of see this coming and why not celebrate it? And
if you help everyone understand and celebrate it, then whatever
maybe jealousy or hurt feelings are just kind of uncertainty
maybe can melt away and you can understand that. Because
of Caitlyn Clark, the spotlight is on her. Well, I've
heard people say this. I'm sure you have too. It's like,
(34:13):
oh my gosh, Kelty Mitchell, what a player. Yeah, but
no one knew.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Nobody knows.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
People knew obviously now they know the same with Eliah Boston.
What an incredible player and what a great friend of Caitlin.
And the way there. I have this in the book
where they're before every game, you know, you're amazing, No,
you're amazing little and Caitlyn started it. According to the
Leah Boston I asked her, ask Lea about like, how
did that get to these lovely moments that are uplifting
(34:41):
for every girl or boy athlete to see how how
these professionals handle it and their friendship and their how
they support each other. How Caitlyn leads away on that
she's an optimist, she's a total for her charger in
terms of team and loving her teammates. You know, all
this stuff is there and and but the spotlight is
on these women, other women who are going to be
(35:02):
paid more because of it, Because of Caitlin. You've got
the bargaining agreement the CBA open. Now that's so essential
that they get more money because they get paid almost
nothing the players. Which is why Britney Grinder was in Russia.
It wasn't the ambiance and you know, hanging out with
the weather. You know, she had to go because she
wanted to supplement a very small, basically lessland quarter million
(35:25):
salary with the million bucks or so she could get
in Russia. So anyway, all this changes. Caitlin Clark is
the rising tide that lives. All boats take it and
run with it. Yeah, some players have, I mean, you know,
but I think again when we see the chief shot
from Marina Maybray, I mean, and then of course mimicking
(35:46):
the one from Kennedy Carter about a year earlier, really
within about twenty feet on that floor and almost in
the exact same spot, in the exact same arena. No,
that's right, Yeah, yeah, Cambridge and Indy, you know, like,
what on earth? What are you doing and and I'll
say this knock on wood. Thankfully of course no one
(36:07):
was injured. Yeah, in any of those skirmishes, there's a
lot and Caitlin dishes, is it out too? I mean,
we're not saying she's again wallflower that has to be protected,
But how on earth is someone like Marina Maraby? This
is a dead ball situation, comes flying in like a
freight train and knocks Caitlyn to the ground. What if she's,
you know, again knock on wood a million times? You know,
(36:27):
injured her ankle, broken arm, Like that's propic for the
league because we know when she was gone and missed
those few games with the five games with the quadrucepstrain,
we know that they lost more than half of their viewership,
literally more than half of the viewership of the WNBA.
As you know, Jason disappeared for one person. Let me,
(36:50):
you want as a player, other players, you want her
to play because that, of course helps the economic It
helps your economic future as a player.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Pretty soon they're going to start getting stuff off the
court as well marketing opportunities. But let me ask you,
this is a tough one. When you were approaching people
about the book, did anybody when you say, hey, question
about Kaitlyn Cark. Did anybody say I don't want to
talk about her. I'm not taking Caitlin Clark questions. I
don't want to contribute to the book.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
No one said necessary. I mean, I'm trying to think,
did anyone say, no, I don't want to talk about
Kaitlyn Clark. There were people that got angry with me,
and actually quite a public thing actually, and I'm happy
to just you know, go in.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Was that the Angel Reese one?
Speaker 3 (37:34):
No, that was djn A Carrington Carrington right right right
when I asked her questions that of course, actually has
nothing to do with the book. I mean I was
at that point reporting for the book. But any journalists
should have and I would have asked, I did it.
I was the one that asked after dj A. Carrington
in Game one of the playoffs Connecticut against Indiana, was trying.
(37:56):
It was swaddening at the ball and her finger end
up hitting Kitlin Clark in.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
The eye with the long fingernails, right right right.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
And and you know the Internet, which of course the
Twitter x whatever is a cesspool, no surprise, everything's running
rampant for a couple of days, and there's so many
storylines about the WNBA on social media, and you know,
millions and millions of people weighing in, jumping in blaming
djn A Carrington for trying to stick her fingers in
(38:24):
Kaitlin Clark's eyes. Kitlyn did not have a great shooting night.
She's never she said, had nothing to do with it.
She had a bit of a shiner under her eye,
and then she said she was fine the next and
had a much better game in game two, but again
said that had nothing to her credit. Kaitlin Clarkson, that
was not it, that was not the problem, and made
sure of that. And I've got that of course in
the book as well. Anyway, opportunity to interview DJE Carrington,
(38:49):
I mean journalism one on one, you have to ask,
and you have to ask specifically. That's what everyone's out
there and in fact, as you know athletes, this is
what most athletes if again, if they have been prepared
or understand what the media is, which would be something
that WNBA should probably prepare everyone for a national scrutiny
that they understand they can hit it out of the park.
(39:11):
You want that question, so then you can then go
specifically to the issue. The journalists just asked, and you
can tell everybody what the truth is and try to
finally nip all the controversy and all the confusion and
all the criticism in the butt. And that's I asked
the question. I asked to follow up. And instead of
I mean, Karenton answered it fine, but instead of instead of,
(39:34):
you know, just moving on, she got mad, Other players
got mad. It was a whole, you know, big kind
of soap opera for a day or two, with her
yell getting involved, yelling at me and two other journalists.
The next day. It's all in the book. It's it's
kind of an epilogue because I didn't I wanted to
keep it away from the magic of Caitlin Clark and
(39:56):
the storytelling. But I needed to deal with this story.
And and the Players Association actually wanted to ban me
for that question.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Oh that's right, I remember that now. The IA total nonsense.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
And you know, because this still is the United States
of America. I you know, a journalist asking questions that
called to ban me, to take my credentials, which of
course is the very essence of wanting to ban a
journalists that failed miserably. I had credentials for game one
of the finals October tenth and New York. And yeah,
(40:30):
it was just a total failure. But you know, it
just again to me, it was it almost made me sad.
Not for me. I mean, I'm doing my job, and
you know that's I've done this. You know thousands of times.
People get mad at questions all the time. I mean,
you know when I was covering the Washington football team,
the Skins, you know, in the eighties.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Oh, I remember I was a Washington Post reader growing
up in northern Virginia. You guys had, we had, I know,
Rachel Nichols a little now, but the staff you guys
had was just I mean it was like basically what
with like the twenty seven Yankees, Right, Will Bond, Coroneizer,
you were there, I think Ja Donde, right.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Jay came in and Rachel came in a little bit. Yeah,
towards I mean, yes, it's definitely towards the end. And
they were amazing interns. I mean, like that's your intern group.
But well absolutely, And Wilbond my of course college classmate
my first day freshman year, Mike Wilbon and I like
brother and sister to this day, and then we were
sitting next to each other, and yeah, so many others
(41:25):
George solom Sports it was great. But yeah, I mean
you asked tough questions. I mean, this is what you do.
You're not their friend and you're not a pr person.
You're there to be a journalist asking questions, and so yes,
people were not happy with my questions. And then you know,
there were some some coverage of that whole thing where
people who really didn't even know what I was doing
and what you know, had hardly been around me, were
(41:47):
quoted in a story like saying, I'm always asking about
Caitlin Clark, like this was a problem. I cannot tell you, Jason,
how many times covering golf, covering tiger you know, the
whole you know, the whole time is entire, you know,
a career. You know that you've got people asking questions,
and you know three or four of them are writing
Tiger Woods books, right, I mean, yet, somehow this became
(42:10):
a big deal and I'm shocked that there aren't more
Kaitlin Clark books out now. I'm thrilled, you know, mine
is coming in a couple of weeks, but you know,
like what what like again, I think the league just
clearly did a terrible job or or somebody did a
terrible job. And I do again, you know, certainly have
(42:31):
have stories and news in the book of not preparing
them to say this is what journalists do. That you've
got national scrutiny now because of Kaitlyn Clark. I don't know,
maybe you hate that, but if national scrutiny brings should
bring more money to everybody, that's not my job. That's
you know that that just comes from endorsements and whatever
(42:52):
and salaries. And somehow this turned into a terrible thing
when you're asking an athlete to answer a question, or
asking two questions that allow her to clear the air,
allow her to you know, literally hit a fat pitch
out of the park, and it's somehow it's seen as
something bad. And you know, I'll leave you with this,
(43:13):
I'd ask men that those questions, all that I've asked
Tiger was about steroid you you know, implications of steroids
or hgh use rumors that were flying around at the
masters I've talked to. I'll ask any question of anyone.
That's my job to serve the readers, the viewers, whatever.
And are we saying that women cannot handle questions that
(43:33):
men can handle. Is that what we're saying? I mean,
I was giving to me the WNBA the greatest respect
I could by treating it like the NFL. Yeah, reading
it like the Olympics, asking those same questions of women
that I, of course would ask of men that no
one would even beat an eyelash about me asking a
male athlete those questions. That was incredibly enlightening and disappointing,
(43:59):
because these and they're tough, they're strong, they can handle it.
And how this turned into something it's it's just really surprising.
Is that what we're saying in twenty twenty four that
women cannot women athletes cannot handle questions that male athletes can. Boy,
if that's what we're saying, if that's what the WNBA
Players Association is saying, my goodness, what a what a
(44:20):
sad state of affairs.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
We can wrap up Christine real quick. So the Olympic
snub of Clark. Clark seemed to handle it well, was like, hey,
I could use the time off. I went right from
college to the WNBA. But we know that that team
would have got way more coverage had they had Caitlin
Clark they still did win. I think they won by
like two in the championship. I don't know. I didn't
really follow it. I'm gonna be honest, they didn't have Clark.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
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Speaker 2 (44:55):
In your reporting, was there anything behind the scenes from
players on the team, maybe Diana Trossi saying we don't
want her on the team. Was there any of that
that you heard?
Speaker 3 (45:06):
Certainly it was crystal clear the committee. There's a committee
of six that made the decision, but then there was
also the coach, Cheryl Reeve, who was not officially on
the committee and making the decision, but she's the head coach. Yeah.
And it doesn't even take much reporting. I mean, I
report that what this is at the time for USA
Today and now it's in the book. You know, Cheryl
(45:27):
Reeve is literally kind of going after twenty two year
old Kaitlyn Clark. By the way, who does that, middle
aged anyone, any authority figure, you know, targeting a twenty
two year old like our game's not on TV, but
you know hers is and you know, and some some
unknown person says yeah because of Kaitlyn Clark, and then
Cheryl Reeve you know, immediately or not immediately, but then
(45:49):
replies on social on Twitter, X yeah that part. I mean, like,
Caitlyn Clark is in the pool to be selected potentially
for the team, and you've got a coach on social
looking directing comments right at that person. I've never seen
anything like that. And I've covered the Olympics since eighty
four in LA and you know, that is just no
(46:09):
way to pick a team. That's no way to act.
And how that was allowed by USA Basketball beyond me.
But to answer your question, yes, there certainly was a
mood and a feeling that she was not going to
make that team, that they wanted to leave her home,
which is unbelievable. The woman that has just passed not
only all the female basketball players but the male ones,
(46:32):
pistol Pete Maravitch to be the greatest scorer in Division
I college basketball history, male or female, Such a big name,
bringing eyeballs everywhere, opening up the game to countries. I
had a Brazilian journalist come up to me at in
Paris and say, where's Caitland Clark.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
I had a British journalist who asked me at the
Masters explain the Caitlyn Clark thing to it, and he said,
I couldn't wait to see her at the Olympics. Oh
my god, what a missed opportunity be What sport doesn't
want to reach a global audience? Women's basketball had that opportunity.
That's why the NHL is in the Olympics, the Winter Olympics,
That's why the NFL plays overseas. You want to reach people. Now,
(47:13):
for those who say, well, her stats weren't good, well,
statistics on the day it happened. I broke the news
on June seventh into the morning of June eighth, and
her statistics were better than Diana Tarassi's and some of
the other guards that they picked. So this notion she
was playing poorly is just wrong. It is just absolutely wrong.
(47:33):
And I wanted to get to the bottom of why
several reporters felt this way and wanted to highlight negative,
be much more negative about Caitlin Clark and minimizing her
play when she was already playing so much better than
most people thought she would and would. And obviously a
lot of the reporting indicated. So there I did not
(47:55):
find a conspiracy. I do not have a conspiracy that
they were all in cohudes. But consider this. On June sixth,
Geno Arima, who I like very much and known them
for a long time, get along with them. Of course,
the legendary Yukon coach, just when his twelfth national title.
He goes on Dan Patrick and he talks about the
delusional fan base, you know, following Kaitlyn Clark. Who would
(48:19):
ever say that if you've got new fans, you accept them.
Roger Goodell calling some of the nutty fans that show up,
you know, bare chested and buffalo and minus twenty degree delusional. No,
you say thanks for buying tickets and buy you know,
jerseys and come back. So there was this negativity from
(48:41):
Gino that that occurred. And then the next day you
have later that night you have the decision, you get
the news comes out that Kaitlin Clark is not on
the Olympic team. I am not saying that is a
quot pro quo. I'm not saying timing is interesting though,
but I think it does show the mood of the
basketball establishment. And I do say that in the book
and talk about how it's just so strange, instead of
(49:04):
going this is the like, yipe, this is the greatest
opportunity we've ever had. Let's go, let's get all of
these players again. To your point, I've covered all these
Olympic basketball games. I've been there. The press section is
mostly tumbleweeds. A few other reporters. Most of the guys
that cover the Olympics would laugh like, oh where you go.
I said, I'm going to the Women's Olympic you know,
(49:25):
basketball gold medal game, and they're like, why would you
do that. They're going to win. You've got stories on
you know, soccer and whatever. And so they didn't get
the coverage they deserved. All of those great players, Asia Wilson,
so many others that deserve more attention did not get it.
The TV ratings went down, not up. The media coverage,
(49:47):
to your point, not there paultry coverage. I predicted it.
I hate to say I was right. I wish I'd
been wrong. It was right, and it was just an
incredible missed opportunity. At the key moment, you bring collegians,
you know, Rebecca Lobo made the team, Diana Tarsci, this
is the collegian you bring at this moment, and they
(50:08):
failed miserably. And again I think certainly the undercurrent of
feeling towards Caitlin Clark by the basketball establishment cannot be ignored.
And clearly that committee, who's Don Staley and others, they
made the choice we do not want Caitlin Clark on
our Olympic team. Can you believe how history, not only
(50:28):
right now, but how history will judge that one? And
they paid the price in terms of ratings and interest,
And it's just a shame because what could have been
for that team with the spotlight that could have been
shining on it. Not only for them, but can you
imagine girls in Africa who never got a chance to
watch one's basketball Kitlin Clark's on TV, but she's hardly
(50:51):
playing right. She would have been on the bench most
a lot of it. But now you're seeing maybe five
black women playing for the United States and you're a
black you know, a little black girl obviously in Africa?
How inspiring is that You're not going to get that
game on TV unless you've got the attention magnetic COULDR
to bring that game and put that game on TV?
Speaker 2 (51:12):
Could have been like the ninety two dream team where
Jordan and company basically were signing autographs with their opponents
after the game, and that really is made basketball a
global game. Right. Were you at that Olympics?
Speaker 3 (51:23):
I was. I was. I was actually covering a lot
of swimming and gymnastics in track and fields, so I
was probably at some of the great track and field
but yeah, I was there, and I remember I was
at the press conference. At first press conference, it was incredible.
Caitlyn Clark, right, Jason would have been a personal version
of the dream team, individualized version of that, and they
(51:44):
decided no. Truly the worst Olympic team decision I have
selection I have ever seen in my forty one years
of covering the Olympics, and frankly appalling that the powers
that be in USA Basketball and the US Olympic and
Paralympic Committee allowed that kind of behavior from Cheryl Reeve
(52:04):
and others to continue. Just absolutely not the way an
Olympic team should be selected.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
All right, Christine Brennan, the book on her game, Caitlin
Clark and the Revolution in Women's Sports, it's out July.
I believe eight.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
You said that's correct. People can pre now and I'll
be going around the country, a lot of stops in
Iowa and Indiana that put it all on social media.
Hopefully I'll see a lot of folks.
Speaker 2 (52:27):
Out there gonna be big congratulations on all your success
and great career and keep up the good work. Christine,
Well you
Speaker 3 (52:32):
Too, Jason, Thanks so much for having me
Fox Sports Radio News
Host
Jonas Knox
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