September 14, 2023 • 51 mins
Growing up as the oldest child of an award-winning restaurateur outside Pittsburgh, Maria C. Palmer unexpectedly became a daughter of the incarcerated. Her debut novel, "On the Rocks," documents the spectacular rise and fall of her larger-than-life restaurateur father, Joseph Costanzo Jr. In graphic detail she shares how the demands of running a successful restaurant, her father's failed attempt at running for public office and his eventual incarceration impacted her family and how she coped.
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W four w N Radio. Helloand welcome to Fearless Fabulous You. I
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am your host, Melanie Young,and if you're joining me the first time,
welcome, and if you're a returnfan, thank you. As you
know, I love talking about livinglife on your terms, facing and beating
odds, turning stumbling blocks into steppingstones. And I'm a big believer in
you have many stages of life toreinvent and do what you want. And
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I try very hard to inspire allmy listeners to do the same and spotlight
women here are doing it, whichwill be discussing today. I'm going to
lead it into this way because alot of you follow me on Instagram at
Melanie Fabulous or my page. Andyou know that my mother died in late
December of twenty twenty two. AndI've been cleaning out what is essentially a
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hoarderhouse, but of a hoarderhouses andvery nice things, and I have touched
upon a lot of interesting paperwork.I come from a family of writers,
and one of the beautiful things theyleft behind for me is a legacy of
letters. Letters from my mother andfather to each other, my grandmother and
grandfather each other, Letters to mymother for all the wonderful philanthropic work she
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did, all the letters from peoplewho admired my father for his wine,
education and his civil or knowledge.He wrote four books and letters I wrote
to my parents when I was travelingaround the world. They're all really special
and eventually they're gonna end up ina book. But two stood out and
lead into my guest today. Mymother was a pen pal to a man
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who was imprisoned. I knew theman. He was the local car dealership,
And unfortunately there were some things thathappened, the accusations of cookbooks,
and a brother pitted against another brother, and I was reading about it,
and it was all sad, andthere were a lot of people on his
side, but he served his timeand my mother wrote him in the penitentiary,
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and I found two letters that hewrote my mother talking about day to
day life in prison and how gratefulhe was that she wrote him because so
many people had fallen by the waysidebecause of the stigma of going to jay.
I kept these letters, and I'mactually going to reach out to this
gentleman. He seld me my firstcar and my second car when he ran
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an auto dealership, and fortunately awonderful man hired him to work at his
auto dealership when he could no longerrun auto dealerships after he was released from
prison. I'm going to reach outto them and talk to them because these
letters really are a fine and alot of ways. That told me so
much about my mother that I knewbut didn't really know because the letters convey
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it well. My guest today hassomewhat similar but different trajectory, and I'm
gonna set it like this. Herfather was larger than life. And if
you're you know, I'm a daddy'sgirl, so I know what that means.
She had a larger than life father. It's so interesting He was a
postal worker who became a restaurant tour, a very successful restaurant tour in a
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very small town near Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania, and he ran a restaurant called the
Prima Donna, which garnered lots ofawards, became a destination a restaurant.
And we'll talk about it with her. But unfortunately things happened, and the
Ryer was a rise, a veryhigh rise, and there was a very
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big fall, and he was imprisonedfor a lot of the things that are
somewhat tied to what happened to thisman in Chadnooga. Things happen. I'll
let her talk about it. Shewas then became she and her sister daughters
of what they call the incarcerated.And I thought about that because I'm also
watching Believe or Not Orange is theNew Black like I've never seen it,
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and I've been drawn into the lifeof prison and the outside world and what
it means to the family is tohave a loved one in prison. Well,
my guest who all officially introduces MariaCostanzo Palmer. She is an author
and a grant writer, and shewas the oldest daughter there is because he's
still alive. The oldest daughter ofthis award winning restaurateur, Joseph Costanzo,
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and she writes about in a book, her first called On the Rocks.
It's a very good title considering everythingabout her family history, which I loved,
right in Italian American family, therise and ambition of her father.
To go from, like I said, a postal worker to a restaurateur and
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a restaurant life is hard. Icome from that background, I worked in
the business to where she became,as we said, the daughter someone who's
been incarcerated in what that does toa family. It's a terrific book.
It's getting a lot of rave reviews. I think there may be some options
for some load of let her talkingabout bigger things, and she's going to
share her story today with me.I'm fearless fabulous too. So Maria,
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welcome, Thank you so much.Thank you for having me. Melanie,
it's really a pleasure to share thestage with you. Well, first of
all, I want to congratulate youon writing the book. I think it
took you like seventeen years, andof the fact you've enlisted to help you
get this through a former teacher,I think that's awesome, Thank you so
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much. Yeah, it was avery very long process, and believe it
or not, at first, thefinal intention really wasn't a book. It
was just collecting family history on myfather right after he had gotten out of
prison and bringing him back to amuch happier time and space. And as
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things evolved, I know that youhad just mentioned in my intro I am
a grant writer for a nonprofit organization, and I can really tell whenever people
are sharing their stories what motivates peopleand what kind of tugs on their heart
strings. And as my dad wasrecalling his life, there were just so
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many elements of that that I reallywent from this family history project of thinking,
wow, this has some commercial appealand some elements that could really work
in the mass market. And youknow that's whenever I decided that this really
should be a book project. AndI absolutely did enlist the help of my
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former AP English teacher from twenty fiveplus years later to get the project off
the ground. So yes, well, I love that my former AP English
teacher has passed on. But goingthrough all the condolence letters I received my
mom's passing, my sixth grade teacherwrote me and it was such a beautifully
written letter that I still have it, and I lost that I found it.
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I loose and when you're grieving,you lose a lot of things,
unfortunately. And I'm going to reachout to her because I'm working on a
book I think. I think writingis a great way to deal with a
what I call a grieving process.And you really went through a grieving process
based on your story. But Iwant to back that up and start with
your family, because this book reallystarts with the family. Yeah, and
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where tell me about your family?Because it all started around a table.
It certainly did. So. Iam from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and the
little town that this story takes placein is mckey's Rocks, Pennsylvania, and
nobody had really heard of this townever until this last past football season.
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Damar Hamlin, who plays for theBuffalo Bills, passed out on the field
with a cardiac arrest, and hehappens to hail from mckey's Rocks, Pennsylvania,
So if you've heard about that story. He then started to raise money
for his mother's daycare, which actuallyshares a back alleyway with the building that
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was once my father's restaurants, andso my father really did come from a
hospitality background his parents. His parentswere both Italian immigrants. His dad had
a cocktail lounge in a much nicerarea of Pittsburgh. And my dad was
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a post worker, and he reallywas not making the strides that he wanted
to within his career. And sowhenever I was only four years old and
my mom was pregnant with my sister, he decided to take a leap and
he bought this failing business in McKy'sRocks, Pennsylvania that was actually an Italian
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restaurant struggling to get off the ground. And he had this vision, not
knowing one soul in mckys Rocks,of turning it into a world class restaurant.
And this was also at the timetoo, during the early eighties,
And so think about our lives backthen. For those of us who were
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listening that were alive back in thatera, there were no cell phones,
there was no Google, there wasno map Quest even there was just really
word of map else and lots ofpay phones and letter writing. And so
what he had to do back thenis very different than what somebody would have
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to do now to get a restaurantoff the ground, but he became very
persistent and even through many challenges andkind of navigating this very corrupt town that
was really just a destination for locals. At that point, he was able
to get a really positive review froma well known food critic who actually was
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a syndicated writer for the New YorkDaily News as well, and it was
really that review some three years afterhe opened his doors that led to this
flurry of successes, and we hadcelebrities that would come into the restaurant.
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He had sportscasters, broadcasters, sportsstars, and everything was just a fairy
tale land until one day it wasn't. And just as fast as everything rose,
I received a knock at my doorwhenever I was twenty years old,
and it was the federal government lookingfor my father because somebody had mentioned his
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name and a federal granjury investigation.And as you had said at the top
of the hour, he did servesome time in prison. So we went
from having almost everything to losing itall. And really this story is about
what that all means and what youwalk away with whenever you've really been through
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it all, and the story ofthis underdog who really beat all odds to
do this seemingly impossible and then whereit goes from there. So that's a
little good about our story and ofhow all of this blossomed. Well,
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first of all, having you know, the restaurant business is hard, sure,
so kudos to your dad for leavingyou know the let's just face it,
working in the US posts to service, you get lots of bennies,
you do a long term, youretire with your whatever. You know,
it's like it's it's it's wonderful.But he wanted to be an entrepreneur and
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not everyone fails. So many entrepreneursthere's a high failure rate, and sure
those who go into the restaurant businessis an even higher failure rate. My
grandfather bought a failing restaurant in EastRidge, Tennessee, and it failed,
so you know, he was partof that side. So kudos to your
dad for turning it into what itbecame. I have to say one of
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the interesting characters in the book wasthat restaurant critic m because when I read
the book, he reminded me andI'm trying to figure out where in literature
his character fits in, But it'syou know, he was a restaurant critic,
so there was a professionalism he hadto maintain, but he also got
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cozy and then he had you know, when your father went to prison.
There he had he got called outon some stuff. He may still be
alive, I don't know, butthat was kind of an interesting relationship and
what I call side story to howit all came about and affected other people.
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Yeah, it certainly was so acouple of interesting kidbits with Mike Kalina.
So Mike was really my dad alwaysdescribes him as the key that turned
the engine to the Prima Donna onprior to him coming to the restaurant.
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It really was kind of a CDafter hours bar, and not that my
dad wanted it to be that way, but whenever you have a young family
and kids to feed and bills topay, sometimes you have to really go
where the market is and know youraudience. And in mc key's Rocks,
that market was people who wanted toparty, and they wanted to drink,
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and they wanted to listen to aDJ and have fun and do other things
that are somewhat unmentionable. But hehad to play to that audience. But
in the back of his mind hewas always trying to find ways to fine
tune the food and to get thebuzz out about the food. And really,
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when Mike Klina came down for thefirst time and he in, you
know, I think we understand theculture and the climate of the eighties.
You know, my dad was sendingletters and kick out to go menus one
at a time and calling Mike's officephone that did not have an answering service
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whatsoever. So after a few yearsof this, one day, just randomly,
Michelena picked up the phone and mydad very quickly was caught off guard.
He had never picked up the phone, and he told and told Mike
who he was. And Mike knewexactly who he was because he was really
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sick of getting all this fan mailthat he didn't want in his mailbox from
my dad and basically made a promiseto my dad in a very offhanded way.
He said, you know, I'mgonna kid, you have a neighborhood
joint at best, but I'm goingto come down and review you. Not
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because I think your place has anythingspecial, that because I want you to
backing be. So that's how everythinggets led up to this review. And
then when Mike comes in and Iwon't you spoilt all of the idiosynchrisities that
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happen during their their long friends together. But whenever he first comes in,
what he is expecting is not atall what he gets. And so Mike
is really face this choice of whatdo I do here. I've never given
a restaurant like this a review likethe one that it actually deserves. So
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do I give it the review thatit deserves, and do I face the
kickback that's going to happen if thisyoung, fearless entrepreneur cannot handle the business
or if this was just a fluke, Or do I do what's come pable
and give a lesser review that's notdeserved the higher review is actually deserve it,
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and know that there won't be manyprofessional consequences for me if this particular
restaurant lets people down. And Mikereally toyed between what to do in that
situation, and you know, fromfrom the intro, I think that we
could all tell what he ultimately diddecide to do. But it was a
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risk. It was a risk onrisk on Mike's part, it was on
my father's part, and you know, unfortunately, Mike's career did not end
in a half way, and inmy opinion that it was the impetus that
started the government looking at my dadin a different way, because my dad
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was told to keep quiet whenever everythingwas going on with Mike's investigation, and
ultimately something incredibly sad that occurred afterwards. So I really do think that that's
because my dad was such an upfronttype of person and not at all quiet
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or behind the scenes. I dothink that that was really just as Mike's
review kind of was the start tothe engine of the Prima Donna, my
dad not being silent about what happenedultimately to Mike and his own investigation really
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was the turnkey for what that Thegovernment really hot on my dad, in
my opinion, and so he wasthe key to the restaurant, the turnkey
for the federal investigation. It wasan interesting development, and yes, obviously
again the book is on the rocks, but it was it was such an
important part of it, just tosee all that, like the weel,
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the cog and the wheel and thekey, how it all kind of came
about. And you know, therestaurant business is cd there are you know,
there are a lot of things thatgo on in restaurant business because I
worked in restaurant PR marketing and verymuch involved. And I know I was
that person who was sending out lettersand making calls before emails, and I
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know what your dad did. Butyou had to be persistent. And I
can see the I can see Kaleinilike, Okay, get off my back,
I'll go. But be careful whatyou wish for, because the worst
thing that happens to a restaurant isthey get an incredible review, which is
all you want. And then youcan't handle the business, sure absolutely,
and then you make bad decisions becausewell, three things happen as you well
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know you can handle the business becauseeverybody wants to come and they're impatient,
and you write about it. Youknow, it was that kind of all
hands on deck and going on andon and on right and then and then
and then you decide success is sogreat, you're going to expand and do
more things. You're gonna add this, you're gonna do this, You're gonna
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add renovate, you're gonna spend moremoney. And then and then the third
thing, this happens in the wintingbusiness as well. And then you've got
to figure out how to get themoney, and then maybe something happens and
then you're in deep dead. You'regonna do things to save everybody, right,
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sure, yeah, and you knowthat's exactly Those three elements are very
key features to exactly what happened tomy dad as he really tried to bring
the restaurant to what it was.You know, there are always there's always
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a challenge when you're working with thepublic and you're working in the restaurant business,
because it's fast, it's not youknow, this is not the type
of business where there's a lot offorgiveness. It's instant gratification, and it's
food and people are hungry, andyes they're they're not understanding if they're waiting
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a little longer than expected for theirmeal, or staff members have called off,
so somebody's not delivering them the qualityof service that they think they are
deserving. There's, you know,so many elements to this that in other
industries were much more forgiving. Youknow, if if a letter comes from
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the post office and it's it's aday late, you're not you know,
filing federal complaints. But if you'reif your meal comes a day late,
oh boy, you're going to yelpthat all the way up to the top.
So it's it's really a fast pacedand it's not it certainly is not
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for every personality type. You gotto have it in your DNA so speaking.
So how old were you again whenyou were your what was your age
during this period of time. Sowhen my father got into the business,
I was four years old, andthe book follows from that whenever he opens
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up the business in February of nineteeneighty six through the early two thousands,
I believe, I think it's twothousand and eight or possibly two thousand and
ten, he received a very specialhonor from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette where he's
recognized as one of the greatest restaurantsof the century in the in the Pittsburgh
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area. So it really follows throughthat twenty plus year period. And you
know, I was anywhere from fourto my mid twenties when the story's taking
place, so a very formative timein my own upbringing. I always say
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that, you know, growing up, the restaurant was like my third sibling.
It was certainly the annoying brother thatI never had, because my dad
was always there, holidays, arenot the same. You don't have holidays.
You know, have holidays, youdon't have. My dad, within
the eighteen years that he was inbusiness, he did not go to one
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family wedding. He would go tothe church and then he would immediately go
back to the restaurant because people whenyou're a very hands on owner, people
expect you and they are really letdown whenever you're not there. It almost
feels like you've sort of betrayed them, and your meal just doesn't taste is
good and well. It's like whenyou go to Broadway show the headliner's not
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there and you're like, I justpaid alete dollars a ticket for more,
so I gather. But it's hardbecause the family summers. My husband worked
in the restaurant business, and hesaid he got out of it. He's
like, I never had fam Iwas never with my family for any special
occasion. So you become a restaurantfamily. And you're right. It was
the third sibling, so your father, so one of the probably you know
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another you know, the higher therise of the harder the fall. Your
father did make some mistakes and somecrazy decisions. I think one of the
craziest. Sorry, was to runfrom Pop's office. Oh sure, but
does that really right? But yeah, but you know, I think where
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he was coming from at the timeand the book, And I should mention
this too, because I think partof the appeal of the book right now
is the book is written by meand my English teacher, both females,
but it's written in first person perspectivefrom his point of view. So when
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you read this book, you canhear a man talking, and even it
freaks people out because there's not manymemoirs that are written in this way.
That the way was hard to usehis voice. I mean, thank god
you had your ap English teacher,you know it. When we decided on
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using his voice, it actually madelife a lot easier because originally the book
was written partially in my voice andpartially in his voice, and we would
switch chapter to chapter, and Ikind of was going in the reverse,
so I was starting as a twentysomething year old and flashing back, and
he was going from the beginning andyou know, going to the time that
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he got in trouble, and itjust was confusing. And He's got for
people out there that have been tothe Prima Donna, if you've been to
the Prima Donna. Even if youdon't remember my father's name, I can
guarantee you would know who my fatherwas because he was out there, he
was in front, he was talkingto everybody, meeting with everybody, wanting
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to get to know everybody, andbeing a part of your meal. Even
if you just visited one time,I've gotten so many letters and emails and
calls and just saying, hey,I was traveling on business and I've never
been to Pittsburgh, and I askedthe concier where to go, and I
went to your father's place. Itis the best meal that I've ever had
in my entire life. Not necessarilybecause of the food. The food was
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excellent, up there on par withNew York City and Chicago and all of
the Italian restaurant greats, but becauseof the impact that your father had on
my meal and getting to know melike I've never had a restaurant experience like
that. So whenever we decided towrite in his voice, it was very
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easy because his character is a veryblack and white So whenever you think from
what would he choose in this situation, even though it's not necessarily our choice,
there's a clear definitive decision always,so that's what kind of made it
very easy. Also, he's veryfun, he's a very gregarious character.
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He gets involved with people almost toa default, and he becomes you know,
I just got back from yoga andmy yoga instructors said this about the
book, which I thought was reallycool. She said, your dad experiences
this Santosia in life, and reallywhat that means is there's no judgment as
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to who he sort of let intohis life. So people that you or
I maybe would not want to befriends with, or we would naturally stay
away from because they may have alittle bit of a shady nature to them,
my dad would find something good aboutthat person. And not only would
he find something good, he'd beable to bring it out in that person,
and he would befriend that person,and that person would be great for
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him. And there are several examplesof that throughout the book. But it
became easier to write in his voiceas my point, even though we were
not him, and you know,from and to answer your question about the
politics and getting into political office,I absolutely one hundred percent agree with you
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that that was another turning point andanother decision that really became the beginning of
the end. But thinking from thinkingas my dad, because this is what
I do as a writer. Whathe would say if he was on air
right now is that he was writingso high at the top of his game
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with the restaurant, and he washitting all the home runs, and he
was doing this time and time again. He was doing really unorthodox thing get
people through his doors. He createit at a radio shower. He would
have interview his competition, and notin a snarky or a mean way,
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interview his competition to get people togo to their restaurant. Because guess what,
every week whenever he was on theair, not only were people hearing
about all of these other restaurants,but he was on the air interviewing these
people. So people were also subliminallyhearing about his restaurant. That was something
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that was not done during the eightiesand nineties. People thought he was crazy.
He also started his own salad dressingcompany, and he would bottle salad
dressing and he would give it awayas people were walking out the door to
the restaurant because guess what, thatfifty cents that he was giving away was
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going to create a loyal customer,as people would go back to the grocery
store and look for that brand andbuy that particular brand of salad dressing.
Over time, so it became homerun after home run after home run.
And when he was thinking of runningfor office, he was thinking that he
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could take all of those skills thathe developed in the restaurant and put them
to use in public office, whichreally, by nature and by thought,
was a great idea. In practice, politics is very different in so many
ways, especially nowadays, but that'sreally where he was coming from, and
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that's really he had this idea thatat the time he was invisible and he
was not going to be able tobe beaten because he would be able to
find ways to relate everybody on eitherside of the aisle. And he did,
and he found great ways to relateto people on each side of the
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aisle. But you know, atwhat costs. At the costs as you
had just Earier mentioned of putting therestaurant in our family in a lot of
debt jeopardy, which really parlayed intothe other things that sort of take place
later in the book. So yeah, I guess that happens. You know,
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hubrist politics. People need to havehubrist for dessert. I mean,
it's it's it is a. Itis a it is a story that we've
all heard over and over again thatleads to bad decisions and losses and splinters
of family, BANKRUPTCIESU incarcerations probably anextreme, but speaking of forgiving, you
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know, I was reading this morning. I got up early, and I
was just going doing the Google andone of the things that they said is
you can't google and without seeing theincarctor. It never leaves you, No,
it comes up. How did youhandle that? Because you're very open
with the fact that you went througha lot of angst, panic, it's
tacks. You've you've been been reopened. The zan x people kept giving you
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zan xica. I went through thistoo. By the way, my father
let me down, not to thepoint where he went to the jail.
He's dead, so who knews whathappened. But he cooked my books in
my company and I ended up closingmy company because I was going through chemotherapy
at the time. He was myCPA and I couldn't answer anything. I
could barely make a decision to goingthrough breast ket and he had just died
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and I had banks coming after me, I was served papers in the middle
of an event I was producing,and I went through a lot of that
and started having panic attacks that peoplewere following me in place. So I
went through that. My father's dad, so I never could address it with
him, but yours is alive,still out of incarceration. You had to
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come to terms with the fact thatthat is part of his resume and your
resume as having it with your parent, because it follows you around as well.
How did you deal with that?Ats not very well. We were
all caught off guard by what hadhappened with his investigation because it came down
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in a very unorthodox way. Normally, when the government is after you for
something, you're really into doing shadythings, and you know, you hang
out with a shady crowd. Andin my father's case, his name was
mentioned in the federal grand jury investigation, which at the time it's not that
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way anymore. But time that wasan automatic criminal not civil instigation, and
the government had thought that they werecatching a kingpin. Really, in fact,
the only thing that they could findon my father after a really invasive
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three year investing to him, butto our family, including at the time
his eighty year old mother, whichis like insane. The only thing that
they could find was tax evasion,and tax evasion over the period of a
business. I think it totaled onehundred and twelve thousand dollars, which turned
(34:30):
out to be less than ten thousanddollars a year. And you know,
as you had mentioned, Melani,the extreme would be incarceration. In this
case, it was the extreme becausethe federal mandates that were put together that
are now unconstitutional, really acted likea chart. You did this particular crime,
(34:52):
you served this amount of a sentence. There was really no interpretation of
it. There were offers and frommiss made. He did offer to,
you know, pay the debt back, and the government really didn't want to
hear it. Instead, an examplewas really made of his case. And
(35:12):
whenever you're somebody that's twenty years old, which I was at that time,
my sister was sixteen, whenever thisall started, and it started with me
because I was the person that openedthe door the federal image and I was
home alone. And that in itselfis just heavy, heavy stuff that just
(35:37):
not leave you. And you know, he was investigated while I was in
college, and he went to prison. Whenever my sister was in college,
So talk about formative years. Iran away. Once I got out of
college, I went Syracuse University.I packed my bag and my boyfriend at
the time, my husband now wantedto move to Los Angeles. So I
(35:59):
thought, yeah, you know what, that's a great idea. Nobody's going
to know me out there, andI'll move there. But what happens is
whenever you have all of these panicattacks and shame and stigma and you're worried
about things, all that travels withyou. So you don't just leave it
in the city that you go from. It comes with you. You can't
(36:22):
run away from your demon's internal demons. No, And so for me,
it took a very long time becauseI was so broken by it, and
I wasn't upset or I didn't feelshame with my father. I was just
so taken aback by the entire situation. Because in our community, my family
(36:49):
was really a pillar. We wereincredibly philanthropic, like to the point where
it was almost much. You know, my dad had sponsored pretty much all
of the sports teams a town.We would have you know, nights for
local athletes. He would offer scholarshipsto families that live locally. People that
(37:13):
live locally worked for him, andevery single young person that worked for him,
and this is a rough area.They have now become successful businesspeople.
They work at banks right now,they work as state troopers. They are
very very successful people in life.And you know, really they credit it,
(37:37):
and I credited as well to thework ethic that my father put forth
at that restaurant, because he wasnot easy to work for and he expected
a very high level of service thatwe all really delivered. But he would
always say, you know, here, I'm teaching you about life. It's
not just about service. This isabout life. And really some of those
(38:00):
lessons that were taught, I feelI gained more of an education there than
I did either at Syracuse University orPeppernine University, which is where I did
my graduate work. So it reallywasn't the shame of him that I had
to come into grips with. Itwas just the complete junkstaposition of what had
(38:22):
happened to my family. And youknow, whenever something bad happens to somebody
at any time, something bad canhappen to you or me. But it's
what the aftermath of that that's reallytough to deal with. So we went
from the top of the world tonot and that in itself was really triggering
(38:45):
for me, and I had tocome to grips with what was was not
going to be anymore, and Ihad to reinvent myself in a space at
a time where nothing in my mindwas making sense. I had just said
the other day, somebody was askingme about this, and I said,
you know, here's what it waslike to be me at the time all
(39:08):
of this was going on. Sokeep in mind, I grew up in
a food family. I love food. I love to cook. You know.
I still to this day do allthe big holidays. I do a
lot of cooking classes, all thatstuff. And I couldn't even walk into
a restaurant and be handled a largemenu and here specials. I couldn't make
(39:29):
a decision. I would just runout because it was too overwhelming for me
to decide on something. And that'smy happy place. And I would also
walk around And I mean, itfeels kind of surreal now and almost filly
in a way. But for anybodythat's listening out there that's gone through a
really depressive or highly anxious time intheir life, I'm wondering, maybe if
(39:53):
they can relate to this. Istopped really emoting, however, I really
just had no emotion. I wasdone crying because there just nothing else came
out. And I was also donetalking because I felt like if I went
out of my house and I hada conversation with people, or people would
(40:15):
see me on the street, notknowing me, never meeting me, okay,
they would be able to spot meand say, there's something wrong with
that girl. So for years Ididn't really say one word. I didn't
really make new friendships, I didn'treally connect with people because I felt like
(40:35):
people automatically knew I don't know.I had some sort of light bulb going
off as I had left my housethat you need to stay away from this
person or there's something wrong with thisperson. And that's how challenging that time
in my life was, and that'sreally what I needed to overcome, And
(40:55):
really what it was about was Ihad to learn that even though this is
part of my past, this isnot my complete narrative. And I love
what you said in your intro isthat we can all rewrite our own stories
at any time. And this becamethe perfect jumping point. It took me
(41:15):
a very long time, but tostart to pen this story because yes,
the federal government has their side ofthe story, but guess what, we
have our side of the story,and both points can be equally told.
And that is one of the thingsthat caused me a lot of healing.
(41:36):
The other thing that caused me moreimmediate healing was I met this crazy Catholic
nun who was running an organization calledGet on the Bus and I went to
a presentation that she was doing aboutit, and she was taking children to
see their incrctory than mothers at thetime for Mother's Day, and she was
(41:57):
talking about how she started this organizationand you know how important it is to
keep family units together, regardless ofdistance or circumstances. And I was so
moved by what she had to say, and afterwards introduced myself and I told
her a little bit about my ownpersonal story and we lost connection for a
little while, which is a storyfor another day. But whenever we finally
(42:22):
reconnected and she invited me to comeand speak and do a homily that she
was going to be giving Sunday atchurch in Pasadena, California, and I
was really hesitant. I was quietmy story because again there was a lot
of shame around it, and wheneverI went and I just started talking,
(42:45):
it was like the floodgates opened upand I just told my story, and
I felt such a release from allpain and angst and shame and guilt and
all of these really negative emotions.They kind of still out. But what
it did for her it did forthe audience is it allowed my words to
(43:07):
be a channel for her to raisemoney for her organization. So my story
actually became the impetus to something reallygood because it allowed more kids to go
and visit their parents. And Ieventually became the director of that program and
then had a radio show in LAthat talked all about social justice and kind
(43:29):
of a full picture and how wecome around one eighties to all of these
things. But really it wasn't untilthen I thought it was going to be
helping so many people, But itwas in actuality. It was the families
that started to teach me it's okayto forgive, and it's okay to have
(43:50):
unconditional love, and it's okay tobe in this really great relationship with somebody
that the world might be shunning.Right now now, So it was them
teaching me. I really I didnothing. I just learned how to heap.
That was really all that was goingon with me at that time.
Well, I think you know becausethe organization is good on the bus and
(44:13):
I didn't know about it. ButI think you know you're writing is amazing
therapy. And you're writing this bookwhich took many, many years. As
you said, it didn't start outas a book. It just started as
a family history. Any kind ofwriting, letters to yourself, letters to
people, writing things down helped cleara lot of dirt and cobwebs and a
(44:35):
lot of things. Everybody needs todo it. I interviewed a woman named
Julia Cameron many years ago. Sheis a creator of the Writer's Way,
and she does a whole thing aboutwrite three pages every day, the morning
pages. A lot of creatives followher. She does workshops and is the
best selling author on this topic.But it's a discipline, and I think
(44:57):
for you writing this book has takenyou out of many dark areas and open
up new light, which is reallygreat. How is your relationship with her?
To see, we have about threeminutes left, just to give you
an idea how is your relationship withyour father now, Oh, it's really
fantastic. You know, he reallywent through some some pretty dark health challenges
(45:21):
too, and I really wasn't nobodywas that he was going to make it
to see this day and since Onthe Rock has come out, the life
that he had whenever he was inthe heyday of his restaurant, it's now
back. And it's just been socool to share a mic with him,
(45:43):
and to go on a media tourand to go to book signings and to
talk to people, and to seehow much he and his restaurant meant to
other people. And that to meis just a gift that nobody's ever going
to be taking. It's going tobe going to ever take away from me.
And you know, even if thisbook never sold a copy, that
(46:07):
to me makes it a best sellerin my mind, and I think that
that's that's awesome. So thank youfor asking. Well, I think it.
You know, people forget it happenedto him. It happens. A
bad thing happens, and it happensto not only that person, but to
the family around them and to thecolleagues and co workers. And you know,
(46:27):
fortunately he's out of the you know, he paid, he served his
time, and I don't think wheneversomeone goes through a bad thing, it
does become part of your resume.There's nothing you new about it. But
it should never be where you stand. Forever you move. You have to
move forward and it will always bethere. But you build your life in
(46:50):
a new way. What you're doingand you and it's it's all part of
the processing. I've been through itseveral times and I haven't had incarceration,
but I always wonder what would happenedif I've had. In other ways,
people come, people go businesses,you know, clients come, clients go.
You think you're on the top ofthe world and people don't need you
(47:13):
anymore. The key is to maintainyour inner strength and beliefs, and you
come from a very solid family.I have to say when I was reading
the book, I was craving Iplant parmesan. I was craving I plant
part gan. I still I ambecause I've interviewed in my other show,
The Connect to Table, I'll doa lot of work with Italian wine producers
(47:36):
on Italy. We interview people andI'm craving it. I wish I had
had the honor and privilege of goingto the Prima Donna when it was in
his hey day, because that waswhen I was starting my heyday. Running
probably was one of the most successfulboutique culinary marketing and pr agencies in the
country for a period for twenty years. And did you see Melanie. Yeah,
(47:59):
and I traveled all over and youknow, if there was a restaurant,
I was there, So I'd loveto have gone. I probably worked
with the restaurant critic at some point, because I worked with everybody, but
I you know, kudos to youfor doing this. I understand that you're
in discussion possibly with film and TVrights, right. Yeah, So we
(48:22):
signed a non exclusive agreement with AmandaRaymond, who's a director and a producer
at Thirteen Curves Production. So shejust wrapped her last movie and is going
to be heading back to La soon. So if anybody's listening from Hollywood and
has a connection and a way tosell this, she is going to be
(48:45):
your girl. Or you know,maybe you want to come independently and chat
with me, that's fine too.It is a non exclusive agreement at this
particular time. So, yeah,there's a lot of the story is written
very quickly in vignettes, so andlots of like interesting characters at two parts.
(49:07):
This is us one part edgy cheers, So it would be perfect for
a series or even a movie.But it's very colorful, and because it's
heavy dialogue and very quick, it'salmost turnkey. I've been told for film
(49:29):
and TV. So yeah, Ihope it happens because I hope it happens
because that would be just icing onthat beautiful cake. I want to thank
you for joining me. We've beenspeaking with Maria Constanzo Palmer, who has
written this really terrific and it's entertaining, it's poignant, it's revealing. It's
(49:52):
a good read. I read it, I think in a week, you
know, like a weekend. It'scalled on the Rocks. It's a true
story and it's written with I loveit. Her AP English teacher, Ruthie
Robbins. I wish my AP teacherwas still around because I'd like to have
someone helped me right. I thinkit's good kudos for this. I know
you're working on another book, amanuscript, so that's exciting that your career
(50:14):
is going that way, and Iwish you all the best. To stay
in touch Thank you so much.Thank you, Melanie, it was really
wonderful to be on your show.Thank you, and for all the listeners,
I hope this inspires you. Weall have to face ups and downs
in our life or have someone welove very much who maybe didn't do something
right or wrong. But don't alwaysbe judgmental. Just listen, be empathetic.
(50:37):
Everybody deserves a second or third chance, and you deserve the right to
live life on your term. Sochoose fearless and fabulous and go out there
and make an impact on the world, change lives. I'm Melanie Young.
Follow me on Melanie Fabulous at Instagram, check me out at Melanie Young dot
com and here all my shows anytimeanywhere on over thirty podcast annals on demand.
(51:00):
Thank you and stay fearless and fabulousthan you
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(00:22):
W four w N Radio. Helloand welcome to Fearless Fabulous You. I
(00:46):
am your host, Melanie Young,and if you're joining me the first time,
welcome, and if you're a returnfan, thank you. As you
know, I love talking about livinglife on your terms, facing and beating
odds, turning stumbling blocks into steppingstones. And I'm a big believer in
you have many stages of life toreinvent and do what you want. And
(01:10):
I try very hard to inspire allmy listeners to do the same and spotlight
women here are doing it, whichwill be discussing today. I'm going to
lead it into this way because alot of you follow me on Instagram at
Melanie Fabulous or my page. Andyou know that my mother died in late
December of twenty twenty two. AndI've been cleaning out what is essentially a
(01:30):
hoarderhouse, but of a hoarderhouses andvery nice things, and I have touched
upon a lot of interesting paperwork.I come from a family of writers,
and one of the beautiful things theyleft behind for me is a legacy of
letters. Letters from my mother andfather to each other, my grandmother and
grandfather each other, Letters to mymother for all the wonderful philanthropic work she
(01:53):
did, all the letters from peoplewho admired my father for his wine,
education and his civil or knowledge.He wrote four books and letters I wrote
to my parents when I was travelingaround the world. They're all really special
and eventually they're gonna end up ina book. But two stood out and
lead into my guest today. Mymother was a pen pal to a man
(02:20):
who was imprisoned. I knew theman. He was the local car dealership,
And unfortunately there were some things thathappened, the accusations of cookbooks,
and a brother pitted against another brother, and I was reading about it,
and it was all sad, andthere were a lot of people on his
side, but he served his timeand my mother wrote him in the penitentiary,
(02:45):
and I found two letters that hewrote my mother talking about day to
day life in prison and how gratefulhe was that she wrote him because so
many people had fallen by the waysidebecause of the stigma of going to jay.
I kept these letters, and I'mactually going to reach out to this
gentleman. He seld me my firstcar and my second car when he ran
(03:09):
an auto dealership, and fortunately awonderful man hired him to work at his
auto dealership when he could no longerrun auto dealerships after he was released from
prison. I'm going to reach outto them and talk to them because these
letters really are a fine and alot of ways. That told me so
much about my mother that I knewbut didn't really know because the letters convey
(03:32):
it well. My guest today hassomewhat similar but different trajectory, and I'm
gonna set it like this. Herfather was larger than life. And if
you're you know, I'm a daddy'sgirl, so I know what that means.
She had a larger than life father. It's so interesting He was a
postal worker who became a restaurant tour, a very successful restaurant tour in a
(03:54):
very small town near Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania, and he ran a restaurant called the
Prima Donna, which garnered lots ofawards, became a destination a restaurant.
And we'll talk about it with her. But unfortunately things happened, and the
Ryer was a rise, a veryhigh rise, and there was a very
(04:15):
big fall, and he was imprisonedfor a lot of the things that are
somewhat tied to what happened to thisman in Chadnooga. Things happen. I'll
let her talk about it. Shewas then became she and her sister daughters
of what they call the incarcerated.And I thought about that because I'm also
watching Believe or Not Orange is theNew Black like I've never seen it,
(04:40):
and I've been drawn into the lifeof prison and the outside world and what
it means to the family is tohave a loved one in prison. Well,
my guest who all officially introduces MariaCostanzo Palmer. She is an author
and a grant writer, and shewas the oldest daughter there is because he's
still alive. The oldest daughter ofthis award winning restaurateur, Joseph Costanzo,
(05:03):
and she writes about in a book, her first called On the Rocks.
It's a very good title considering everythingabout her family history, which I loved,
right in Italian American family, therise and ambition of her father.
To go from, like I said, a postal worker to a restaurateur and
(05:24):
a restaurant life is hard. Icome from that background, I worked in
the business to where she became,as we said, the daughter someone who's
been incarcerated in what that does toa family. It's a terrific book.
It's getting a lot of rave reviews. I think there may be some options
for some load of let her talkingabout bigger things, and she's going to
share her story today with me.I'm fearless fabulous too. So Maria,
(05:47):
welcome, Thank you so much.Thank you for having me. Melanie,
it's really a pleasure to share thestage with you. Well, first of
all, I want to congratulate youon writing the book. I think it
took you like seventeen years, andof the fact you've enlisted to help you
get this through a former teacher,I think that's awesome, Thank you so
(06:08):
much. Yeah, it was avery very long process, and believe it
or not, at first, thefinal intention really wasn't a book. It
was just collecting family history on myfather right after he had gotten out of
prison and bringing him back to amuch happier time and space. And as
(06:29):
things evolved, I know that youhad just mentioned in my intro I am
a grant writer for a nonprofit organization, and I can really tell whenever people
are sharing their stories what motivates peopleand what kind of tugs on their heart
strings. And as my dad wasrecalling his life, there were just so
(06:53):
many elements of that that I reallywent from this family history project of thinking,
wow, this has some commercial appealand some elements that could really work
in the mass market. And youknow that's whenever I decided that this really
should be a book project. AndI absolutely did enlist the help of my
(07:15):
former AP English teacher from twenty fiveplus years later to get the project off
the ground. So yes, well, I love that my former AP English
teacher has passed on. But goingthrough all the condolence letters I received my
mom's passing, my sixth grade teacherwrote me and it was such a beautifully
written letter that I still have it, and I lost that I found it.
(07:35):
I loose and when you're grieving,you lose a lot of things,
unfortunately. And I'm going to reachout to her because I'm working on a
book I think. I think writingis a great way to deal with a
what I call a grieving process.And you really went through a grieving process
based on your story. But Iwant to back that up and start with
your family, because this book reallystarts with the family. Yeah, and
(07:57):
where tell me about your family?Because it all started around a table.
It certainly did. So. Iam from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and the
little town that this story takes placein is mckey's Rocks, Pennsylvania, and
nobody had really heard of this townever until this last past football season.
(08:18):
Damar Hamlin, who plays for theBuffalo Bills, passed out on the field
with a cardiac arrest, and hehappens to hail from mckey's Rocks, Pennsylvania,
So if you've heard about that story. He then started to raise money
for his mother's daycare, which actuallyshares a back alleyway with the building that
(08:43):
was once my father's restaurants, andso my father really did come from a
hospitality background his parents. His parentswere both Italian immigrants. His dad had
a cocktail lounge in a much nicerarea of Pittsburgh. And my dad was
(09:03):
a post worker, and he reallywas not making the strides that he wanted
to within his career. And sowhenever I was only four years old and
my mom was pregnant with my sister, he decided to take a leap and
he bought this failing business in McKy'sRocks, Pennsylvania that was actually an Italian
(09:26):
restaurant struggling to get off the ground. And he had this vision, not
knowing one soul in mckys Rocks,of turning it into a world class restaurant.
And this was also at the timetoo, during the early eighties,
And so think about our lives backthen. For those of us who were
(09:46):
listening that were alive back in thatera, there were no cell phones,
there was no Google, there wasno map Quest even there was just really
word of map else and lots ofpay phones and letter writing. And so
what he had to do back thenis very different than what somebody would have
(10:11):
to do now to get a restaurantoff the ground, but he became very
persistent and even through many challenges andkind of navigating this very corrupt town that
was really just a destination for locals. At that point, he was able
to get a really positive review froma well known food critic who actually was
(10:35):
a syndicated writer for the New YorkDaily News as well, and it was
really that review some three years afterhe opened his doors that led to this
flurry of successes, and we hadcelebrities that would come into the restaurant.
(10:56):
He had sportscasters, broadcasters, sportsstars, and everything was just a fairy
tale land until one day it wasn't. And just as fast as everything rose,
I received a knock at my doorwhenever I was twenty years old,
and it was the federal government lookingfor my father because somebody had mentioned his
(11:20):
name and a federal granjury investigation.And as you had said at the top
of the hour, he did servesome time in prison. So we went
from having almost everything to losing itall. And really this story is about
what that all means and what youwalk away with whenever you've really been through
(11:43):
it all, and the story ofthis underdog who really beat all odds to
do this seemingly impossible and then whereit goes from there. So that's a
little good about our story and ofhow all of this blossomed. Well,
(12:03):
first of all, having you know, the restaurant business is hard, sure,
so kudos to your dad for leavingyou know the let's just face it,
working in the US posts to service, you get lots of bennies,
you do a long term, youretire with your whatever. You know,
it's like it's it's it's wonderful.But he wanted to be an entrepreneur and
(12:28):
not everyone fails. So many entrepreneursthere's a high failure rate, and sure
those who go into the restaurant businessis an even higher failure rate. My
grandfather bought a failing restaurant in EastRidge, Tennessee, and it failed,
so you know, he was partof that side. So kudos to your
dad for turning it into what itbecame. I have to say one of
(12:50):
the interesting characters in the book wasthat restaurant critic m because when I read
the book, he reminded me andI'm trying to figure out where in literature
his character fits in, But it'syou know, he was a restaurant critic,
so there was a professionalism he hadto maintain, but he also got
(13:13):
cozy and then he had you know, when your father went to prison.
There he had he got called outon some stuff. He may still be
alive, I don't know, butthat was kind of an interesting relationship and
what I call side story to howit all came about and affected other people.
(13:37):
Yeah, it certainly was so acouple of interesting kidbits with Mike Kalina.
So Mike was really my dad alwaysdescribes him as the key that turned
the engine to the Prima Donna onprior to him coming to the restaurant.
(14:00):
It really was kind of a CDafter hours bar, and not that my
dad wanted it to be that way, but whenever you have a young family
and kids to feed and bills topay, sometimes you have to really go
where the market is and know youraudience. And in mc key's Rocks,
that market was people who wanted toparty, and they wanted to drink,
(14:24):
and they wanted to listen to aDJ and have fun and do other things
that are somewhat unmentionable. But hehad to play to that audience. But
in the back of his mind hewas always trying to find ways to fine
tune the food and to get thebuzz out about the food. And really,
(14:46):
when Mike Klina came down for thefirst time and he in, you
know, I think we understand theculture and the climate of the eighties.
You know, my dad was sendingletters and kick out to go menus one
at a time and calling Mike's officephone that did not have an answering service
(15:09):
whatsoever. So after a few yearsof this, one day, just randomly,
Michelena picked up the phone and mydad very quickly was caught off guard.
He had never picked up the phone, and he told and told Mike
who he was. And Mike knewexactly who he was because he was really
(15:31):
sick of getting all this fan mailthat he didn't want in his mailbox from
my dad and basically made a promiseto my dad in a very offhanded way.
He said, you know, I'mgonna kid, you have a neighborhood
joint at best, but I'm goingto come down and review you. Not
(15:52):
because I think your place has anythingspecial, that because I want you to
backing be. So that's how everythinggets led up to this review. And
then when Mike comes in and Iwon't you spoilt all of the idiosynchrisities that
(16:15):
happen during their their long friends together. But whenever he first comes in,
what he is expecting is not atall what he gets. And so Mike
is really face this choice of whatdo I do here. I've never given
a restaurant like this a review likethe one that it actually deserves. So
(16:41):
do I give it the review thatit deserves, and do I face the
kickback that's going to happen if thisyoung, fearless entrepreneur cannot handle the business
or if this was just a fluke, Or do I do what's come pable
and give a lesser review that's notdeserved the higher review is actually deserve it,
(17:07):
and know that there won't be manyprofessional consequences for me if this particular
restaurant lets people down. And Mikereally toyed between what to do in that
situation, and you know, fromfrom the intro, I think that we
could all tell what he ultimately diddecide to do. But it was a
(17:32):
risk. It was a risk onrisk on Mike's part, it was on
my father's part, and you know, unfortunately, Mike's career did not end
in a half way, and inmy opinion that it was the impetus that
started the government looking at my dadin a different way, because my dad
(17:55):
was told to keep quiet whenever everythingwas going on with Mike's investigation, and
ultimately something incredibly sad that occurred afterwards. So I really do think that that's
because my dad was such an upfronttype of person and not at all quiet
(18:15):
or behind the scenes. I dothink that that was really just as Mike's
review kind of was the start tothe engine of the Prima Donna, my
dad not being silent about what happenedultimately to Mike and his own investigation really
(18:36):
was the turnkey for what that Thegovernment really hot on my dad, in
my opinion, and so he wasthe key to the restaurant, the turnkey
for the federal investigation. It wasan interesting development, and yes, obviously
again the book is on the rocks, but it was it was such an
important part of it, just tosee all that, like the weel,
(19:00):
the cog and the wheel and thekey, how it all kind of came
about. And you know, therestaurant business is cd there are you know,
there are a lot of things thatgo on in restaurant business because I
worked in restaurant PR marketing and verymuch involved. And I know I was
that person who was sending out lettersand making calls before emails, and I
(19:26):
know what your dad did. Butyou had to be persistent. And I
can see the I can see Kaleinilike, Okay, get off my back,
I'll go. But be careful whatyou wish for, because the worst
thing that happens to a restaurant isthey get an incredible review, which is
all you want. And then youcan't handle the business, sure absolutely,
and then you make bad decisions becausewell, three things happen as you well
(19:49):
know you can handle the business becauseeverybody wants to come and they're impatient,
and you write about it. Youknow, it was that kind of all
hands on deck and going on andon and on right and then and then
and then you decide success is sogreat, you're going to expand and do
more things. You're gonna add this, you're gonna do this, You're gonna
(20:10):
add renovate, you're gonna spend moremoney. And then and then the third
thing, this happens in the wintingbusiness as well. And then you've got
to figure out how to get themoney, and then maybe something happens and
then you're in deep dead. You'regonna do things to save everybody, right,
(20:32):
sure, yeah, and you knowthat's exactly Those three elements are very
key features to exactly what happened tomy dad as he really tried to bring
the restaurant to what it was.You know, there are always there's always
(20:52):
a challenge when you're working with thepublic and you're working in the restaurant business,
because it's fast, it's not youknow, this is not the type
of business where there's a lot offorgiveness. It's instant gratification, and it's
food and people are hungry, andyes they're they're not understanding if they're waiting
(21:12):
a little longer than expected for theirmeal, or staff members have called off,
so somebody's not delivering them the qualityof service that they think they are
deserving. There's, you know,so many elements to this that in other
industries were much more forgiving. Youknow, if if a letter comes from
(21:37):
the post office and it's it's aday late, you're not you know,
filing federal complaints. But if you'reif your meal comes a day late,
oh boy, you're going to yelpthat all the way up to the top.
So it's it's really a fast pacedand it's not it certainly is not
(22:00):
for every personality type. You gotto have it in your DNA so speaking.
So how old were you again whenyou were your what was your age
during this period of time. Sowhen my father got into the business,
I was four years old, andthe book follows from that whenever he opens
(22:25):
up the business in February of nineteeneighty six through the early two thousands,
I believe, I think it's twothousand and eight or possibly two thousand and
ten, he received a very specialhonor from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette where he's
recognized as one of the greatest restaurantsof the century in the in the Pittsburgh
(22:52):
area. So it really follows throughthat twenty plus year period. And you
know, I was anywhere from fourto my mid twenties when the story's taking
place, so a very formative timein my own upbringing. I always say
(23:12):
that, you know, growing up, the restaurant was like my third sibling.
It was certainly the annoying brother thatI never had, because my dad
was always there, holidays, arenot the same. You don't have holidays.
You know, have holidays, youdon't have. My dad, within
the eighteen years that he was inbusiness, he did not go to one
(23:33):
family wedding. He would go tothe church and then he would immediately go
back to the restaurant because people whenyou're a very hands on owner, people
expect you and they are really letdown whenever you're not there. It almost
feels like you've sort of betrayed them, and your meal just doesn't taste is
good and well. It's like whenyou go to Broadway show the headliner's not
(23:56):
there and you're like, I justpaid alete dollars a ticket for more,
so I gather. But it's hardbecause the family summers. My husband worked
in the restaurant business, and hesaid he got out of it. He's
like, I never had fam Iwas never with my family for any special
occasion. So you become a restaurantfamily. And you're right. It was
the third sibling, so your father, so one of the probably you know
(24:21):
another you know, the higher therise of the harder the fall. Your
father did make some mistakes and somecrazy decisions. I think one of the
craziest. Sorry, was to runfrom Pop's office. Oh sure, but
does that really right? But yeah, but you know, I think where
(24:41):
he was coming from at the timeand the book, And I should mention
this too, because I think partof the appeal of the book right now
is the book is written by meand my English teacher, both females,
but it's written in first person perspectivefrom his point of view. So when
(25:03):
you read this book, you canhear a man talking, and even it
freaks people out because there's not manymemoirs that are written in this way.
That the way was hard to usehis voice. I mean, thank god
you had your ap English teacher,you know it. When we decided on
(25:25):
using his voice, it actually madelife a lot easier because originally the book
was written partially in my voice andpartially in his voice, and we would
switch chapter to chapter, and Ikind of was going in the reverse,
so I was starting as a twentysomething year old and flashing back, and
he was going from the beginning andyou know, going to the time that
(25:47):
he got in trouble, and itjust was confusing. And He's got for
people out there that have been tothe Prima Donna, if you've been to
the Prima Donna. Even if youdon't remember my father's name, I can
guarantee you would know who my fatherwas because he was out there, he
was in front, he was talkingto everybody, meeting with everybody, wanting
(26:11):
to get to know everybody, andbeing a part of your meal. Even
if you just visited one time,I've gotten so many letters and emails and
calls and just saying, hey,I was traveling on business and I've never
been to Pittsburgh, and I askedthe concier where to go, and I
went to your father's place. Itis the best meal that I've ever had
in my entire life. Not necessarilybecause of the food. The food was
(26:34):
excellent, up there on par withNew York City and Chicago and all of
the Italian restaurant greats, but becauseof the impact that your father had on
my meal and getting to know melike I've never had a restaurant experience like
that. So whenever we decided towrite in his voice, it was very
(26:56):
easy because his character is a veryblack and white So whenever you think from
what would he choose in this situation, even though it's not necessarily our choice,
there's a clear definitive decision always,so that's what kind of made it
very easy. Also, he's veryfun, he's a very gregarious character.
(27:19):
He gets involved with people almost toa default, and he becomes you know,
I just got back from yoga andmy yoga instructors said this about the
book, which I thought was reallycool. She said, your dad experiences
this Santosia in life, and reallywhat that means is there's no judgment as
(27:41):
to who he sort of let intohis life. So people that you or
I maybe would not want to befriends with, or we would naturally stay
away from because they may have alittle bit of a shady nature to them,
my dad would find something good aboutthat person. And not only would
he find something good, he'd beable to bring it out in that person,
and he would befriend that person,and that person would be great for
(28:04):
him. And there are several examplesof that throughout the book. But it
became easier to write in his voiceas my point, even though we were
not him, and you know,from and to answer your question about the
politics and getting into political office,I absolutely one hundred percent agree with you
(28:25):
that that was another turning point andanother decision that really became the beginning of
the end. But thinking from thinkingas my dad, because this is what
I do as a writer. Whathe would say if he was on air
right now is that he was writingso high at the top of his game
(28:45):
with the restaurant, and he washitting all the home runs, and he
was doing this time and time again. He was doing really unorthodox thing get
people through his doors. He createit at a radio shower. He would
have interview his competition, and notin a snarky or a mean way,
(29:06):
interview his competition to get people togo to their restaurant. Because guess what,
every week whenever he was on theair, not only were people hearing
about all of these other restaurants,but he was on the air interviewing these
people. So people were also subliminallyhearing about his restaurant. That was something
(29:26):
that was not done during the eightiesand nineties. People thought he was crazy.
He also started his own salad dressingcompany, and he would bottle salad
dressing and he would give it awayas people were walking out the door to
the restaurant because guess what, thatfifty cents that he was giving away was
(29:48):
going to create a loyal customer,as people would go back to the grocery
store and look for that brand andbuy that particular brand of salad dressing.
Over time, so it became homerun after home run after home run.
And when he was thinking of runningfor office, he was thinking that he
(30:08):
could take all of those skills thathe developed in the restaurant and put them
to use in public office, whichreally, by nature and by thought,
was a great idea. In practice, politics is very different in so many
ways, especially nowadays, but that'sreally where he was coming from, and
(30:33):
that's really he had this idea thatat the time he was invisible and he
was not going to be able tobe beaten because he would be able to
find ways to relate everybody on eitherside of the aisle. And he did,
and he found great ways to relateto people on each side of the
(30:56):
aisle. But you know, atwhat costs. At the costs as you
had just Earier mentioned of putting therestaurant in our family in a lot of
debt jeopardy, which really parlayed intothe other things that sort of take place
later in the book. So yeah, I guess that happens. You know,
(31:18):
hubrist politics. People need to havehubrist for dessert. I mean,
it's it's it is a. Itis a it is a story that we've
all heard over and over again thatleads to bad decisions and losses and splinters
of family, BANKRUPTCIESU incarcerations probably anextreme, but speaking of forgiving, you
(31:40):
know, I was reading this morning. I got up early, and I
was just going doing the Google andone of the things that they said is
you can't google and without seeing theincarctor. It never leaves you, No,
it comes up. How did youhandle that? Because you're very open
with the fact that you went througha lot of angst, panic, it's
tacks. You've you've been been reopened. The zan x people kept giving you
(32:04):
zan xica. I went through thistoo. By the way, my father
let me down, not to thepoint where he went to the jail.
He's dead, so who knews whathappened. But he cooked my books in
my company and I ended up closingmy company because I was going through chemotherapy
at the time. He was myCPA and I couldn't answer anything. I
could barely make a decision to goingthrough breast ket and he had just died
(32:28):
and I had banks coming after me, I was served papers in the middle
of an event I was producing,and I went through a lot of that
and started having panic attacks that peoplewere following me in place. So I
went through that. My father's dad, so I never could address it with
him, but yours is alive,still out of incarceration. You had to
(32:52):
come to terms with the fact thatthat is part of his resume and your
resume as having it with your parent, because it follows you around as well.
How did you deal with that?Ats not very well. We were
all caught off guard by what hadhappened with his investigation because it came down
(33:20):
in a very unorthodox way. Normally, when the government is after you for
something, you're really into doing shadythings, and you know, you hang
out with a shady crowd. Andin my father's case, his name was
mentioned in the federal grand jury investigation, which at the time it's not that
(33:45):
way anymore. But time that wasan automatic criminal not civil instigation, and
the government had thought that they werecatching a kingpin. Really, in fact,
the only thing that they could findon my father after a really invasive
(34:06):
three year investing to him, butto our family, including at the time
his eighty year old mother, whichis like insane. The only thing that
they could find was tax evasion,and tax evasion over the period of a
business. I think it totaled onehundred and twelve thousand dollars, which turned
(34:30):
out to be less than ten thousanddollars a year. And you know,
as you had mentioned, Melani,the extreme would be incarceration. In this
case, it was the extreme becausethe federal mandates that were put together that
are now unconstitutional, really acted likea chart. You did this particular crime,
(34:52):
you served this amount of a sentence. There was really no interpretation of
it. There were offers and frommiss made. He did offer to,
you know, pay the debt back, and the government really didn't want to
hear it. Instead, an examplewas really made of his case. And
(35:12):
whenever you're somebody that's twenty years old, which I was at that time,
my sister was sixteen, whenever thisall started, and it started with me
because I was the person that openedthe door the federal image and I was
home alone. And that in itselfis just heavy, heavy stuff that just
(35:37):
not leave you. And you know, he was investigated while I was in
college, and he went to prison. Whenever my sister was in college,
So talk about formative years. Iran away. Once I got out of
college, I went Syracuse University.I packed my bag and my boyfriend at
the time, my husband now wantedto move to Los Angeles. So I
(35:59):
thought, yeah, you know what, that's a great idea. Nobody's going
to know me out there, andI'll move there. But what happens is
whenever you have all of these panicattacks and shame and stigma and you're worried
about things, all that travels withyou. So you don't just leave it
in the city that you go from. It comes with you. You can't
(36:22):
run away from your demon's internal demons. No, And so for me,
it took a very long time becauseI was so broken by it, and
I wasn't upset or I didn't feelshame with my father. I was just
so taken aback by the entire situation. Because in our community, my family
(36:49):
was really a pillar. We wereincredibly philanthropic, like to the point where
it was almost much. You know, my dad had sponsored pretty much all
of the sports teams a town.We would have you know, nights for
local athletes. He would offer scholarshipsto families that live locally. People that
(37:13):
live locally worked for him, andevery single young person that worked for him,
and this is a rough area.They have now become successful businesspeople.
They work at banks right now,they work as state troopers. They are
very very successful people in life.And you know, really they credit it,
(37:37):
and I credited as well to thework ethic that my father put forth
at that restaurant, because he wasnot easy to work for and he expected
a very high level of service thatwe all really delivered. But he would
always say, you know, here, I'm teaching you about life. It's
not just about service. This isabout life. And really some of those
(38:00):
lessons that were taught, I feelI gained more of an education there than
I did either at Syracuse University orPeppernine University, which is where I did
my graduate work. So it reallywasn't the shame of him that I had
to come into grips with. Itwas just the complete junkstaposition of what had
(38:22):
happened to my family. And youknow, whenever something bad happens to somebody
at any time, something bad canhappen to you or me. But it's
what the aftermath of that that's reallytough to deal with. So we went
from the top of the world tonot and that in itself was really triggering
(38:45):
for me, and I had tocome to grips with what was was not
going to be anymore, and Ihad to reinvent myself in a space at
a time where nothing in my mindwas making sense. I had just said
the other day, somebody was askingme about this, and I said,
you know, here's what it waslike to be me at the time all
(39:08):
of this was going on. Sokeep in mind, I grew up in
a food family. I love food. I love to cook. You know.
I still to this day do allthe big holidays. I do a
lot of cooking classes, all thatstuff. And I couldn't even walk into
a restaurant and be handled a largemenu and here specials. I couldn't make
(39:29):
a decision. I would just runout because it was too overwhelming for me
to decide on something. And that'smy happy place. And I would also
walk around And I mean, itfeels kind of surreal now and almost filly
in a way. But for anybodythat's listening out there that's gone through a
really depressive or highly anxious time intheir life, I'm wondering, maybe if
(39:53):
they can relate to this. Istopped really emoting, however, I really
just had no emotion. I wasdone crying because there just nothing else came
out. And I was also donetalking because I felt like if I went
out of my house and I hada conversation with people, or people would
(40:15):
see me on the street, notknowing me, never meeting me, okay,
they would be able to spot meand say, there's something wrong with
that girl. So for years Ididn't really say one word. I didn't
really make new friendships, I didn'treally connect with people because I felt like
(40:35):
people automatically knew I don't know.I had some sort of light bulb going
off as I had left my housethat you need to stay away from this
person or there's something wrong with thisperson. And that's how challenging that time
in my life was, and that'sreally what I needed to overcome, And
(40:55):
really what it was about was Ihad to learn that even though this is
part of my past, this isnot my complete narrative. And I love
what you said in your intro isthat we can all rewrite our own stories
at any time. And this becamethe perfect jumping point. It took me
(41:15):
a very long time, but tostart to pen this story because yes,
the federal government has their side ofthe story, but guess what, we
have our side of the story,and both points can be equally told.
And that is one of the thingsthat caused me a lot of healing.
(41:36):
The other thing that caused me moreimmediate healing was I met this crazy Catholic
nun who was running an organization calledGet on the Bus and I went to
a presentation that she was doing aboutit, and she was taking children to
see their incrctory than mothers at thetime for Mother's Day, and she was
(41:57):
talking about how she started this organizationand you know how important it is to
keep family units together, regardless ofdistance or circumstances. And I was so
moved by what she had to say, and afterwards introduced myself and I told
her a little bit about my ownpersonal story and we lost connection for a
little while, which is a storyfor another day. But whenever we finally
(42:22):
reconnected and she invited me to comeand speak and do a homily that she
was going to be giving Sunday atchurch in Pasadena, California, and I
was really hesitant. I was quietmy story because again there was a lot
of shame around it, and wheneverI went and I just started talking,
(42:45):
it was like the floodgates opened upand I just told my story, and
I felt such a release from allpain and angst and shame and guilt and
all of these really negative emotions.They kind of still out. But what
it did for her it did forthe audience is it allowed my words to
(43:07):
be a channel for her to raisemoney for her organization. So my story
actually became the impetus to something reallygood because it allowed more kids to go
and visit their parents. And Ieventually became the director of that program and
then had a radio show in LAthat talked all about social justice and kind
(43:29):
of a full picture and how wecome around one eighties to all of these
things. But really it wasn't untilthen I thought it was going to be
helping so many people, But itwas in actuality. It was the families
that started to teach me it's okayto forgive, and it's okay to have
(43:50):
unconditional love, and it's okay tobe in this really great relationship with somebody
that the world might be shunning.Right now now, So it was them
teaching me. I really I didnothing. I just learned how to heap.
That was really all that was goingon with me at that time.
Well, I think you know becausethe organization is good on the bus and
(44:13):
I didn't know about it. ButI think you know you're writing is amazing
therapy. And you're writing this bookwhich took many, many years. As
you said, it didn't start outas a book. It just started as
a family history. Any kind ofwriting, letters to yourself, letters to
people, writing things down helped cleara lot of dirt and cobwebs and a
(44:35):
lot of things. Everybody needs todo it. I interviewed a woman named
Julia Cameron many years ago. Sheis a creator of the Writer's Way,
and she does a whole thing aboutwrite three pages every day, the morning
pages. A lot of creatives followher. She does workshops and is the
best selling author on this topic.But it's a discipline, and I think
(44:57):
for you writing this book has takenyou out of many dark areas and open
up new light, which is reallygreat. How is your relationship with her?
To see, we have about threeminutes left, just to give you
an idea how is your relationship withyour father now, Oh, it's really
fantastic. You know, he reallywent through some some pretty dark health challenges
(45:21):
too, and I really wasn't nobodywas that he was going to make it
to see this day and since Onthe Rock has come out, the life
that he had whenever he was inthe heyday of his restaurant, it's now
back. And it's just been socool to share a mic with him,
(45:43):
and to go on a media tourand to go to book signings and to
talk to people, and to seehow much he and his restaurant meant to
other people. And that to meis just a gift that nobody's ever going
to be taking. It's going tobe going to ever take away from me.
And you know, even if thisbook never sold a copy, that
(46:07):
to me makes it a best sellerin my mind, and I think that
that's that's awesome. So thank youfor asking. Well, I think it.
You know, people forget it happenedto him. It happens. A
bad thing happens, and it happensto not only that person, but to
the family around them and to thecolleagues and co workers. And you know,
(46:27):
fortunately he's out of the you know, he paid, he served his
time, and I don't think wheneversomeone goes through a bad thing, it
does become part of your resume.There's nothing you new about it. But
it should never be where you stand. Forever you move. You have to
move forward and it will always bethere. But you build your life in
(46:50):
a new way. What you're doingand you and it's it's all part of
the processing. I've been through itseveral times and I haven't had incarceration,
but I always wonder what would happenedif I've had. In other ways,
people come, people go businesses,you know, clients come, clients go.
You think you're on the top ofthe world and people don't need you
(47:13):
anymore. The key is to maintainyour inner strength and beliefs, and you
come from a very solid family.I have to say when I was reading
the book, I was craving Iplant parmesan. I was craving I plant
part gan. I still I ambecause I've interviewed in my other show,
The Connect to Table, I'll doa lot of work with Italian wine producers
(47:36):
on Italy. We interview people andI'm craving it. I wish I had
had the honor and privilege of goingto the Prima Donna when it was in
his hey day, because that waswhen I was starting my heyday. Running
probably was one of the most successfulboutique culinary marketing and pr agencies in the
country for a period for twenty years. And did you see Melanie. Yeah,
(47:59):
and I traveled all over and youknow, if there was a restaurant,
I was there, So I'd loveto have gone. I probably worked
with the restaurant critic at some point, because I worked with everybody, but
I you know, kudos to youfor doing this. I understand that you're
in discussion possibly with film and TVrights, right. Yeah, So we
(48:22):
signed a non exclusive agreement with AmandaRaymond, who's a director and a producer
at Thirteen Curves Production. So shejust wrapped her last movie and is going
to be heading back to La soon. So if anybody's listening from Hollywood and
has a connection and a way tosell this, she is going to be
(48:45):
your girl. Or you know,maybe you want to come independently and chat
with me, that's fine too.It is a non exclusive agreement at this
particular time. So, yeah,there's a lot of the story is written
very quickly in vignettes, so andlots of like interesting characters at two parts.
(49:07):
This is us one part edgy cheers, So it would be perfect for
a series or even a movie.But it's very colorful, and because it's
heavy dialogue and very quick, it'salmost turnkey. I've been told for film
(49:29):
and TV. So yeah, Ihope it happens because I hope it happens
because that would be just icing onthat beautiful cake. I want to thank
you for joining me. We've beenspeaking with Maria Constanzo Palmer, who has
written this really terrific and it's entertaining, it's poignant, it's revealing. It's
(49:52):
a good read. I read it, I think in a week, you
know, like a weekend. It'scalled on the Rocks. It's a true
story and it's written with I loveit. Her AP English teacher, Ruthie
Robbins. I wish my AP teacherwas still around because I'd like to have
someone helped me right. I thinkit's good kudos for this. I know
you're working on another book, amanuscript, so that's exciting that your career
(50:14):
is going that way, and Iwish you all the best. To stay
in touch Thank you so much.Thank you, Melanie, it was really
wonderful to be on your show.Thank you, and for all the listeners,
I hope this inspires you. Weall have to face ups and downs
in our life or have someone welove very much who maybe didn't do something
right or wrong. But don't alwaysbe judgmental. Just listen, be empathetic.
(50:37):
Everybody deserves a second or third chance, and you deserve the right to
live life on your term. Sochoose fearless and fabulous and go out there
and make an impact on the world, change lives. I'm Melanie Young.
Follow me on Melanie Fabulous at Instagram, check me out at Melanie Young dot
com and here all my shows anytimeanywhere on over thirty podcast annals on demand.
(51:00):
Thank you and stay fearless and fabulousthan you
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