November 11, 2025 • 30 mins
On this episode of Five to Thrive Live, our guest, story-teller and author Judy Pearson. Judy will introduce us to the dawn of the breast cancer movement through the lives of Shirley Temple Black, Rose Kushner and Evelyn Lauder. In this history lies inspiration for thrivers today.
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Five To Thrive Live is broadcast live Tuesdays at 7PM ET and Music on W4CS Radio – The Cancer Support Network (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
Five To Thrive Live Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Any health related information on the following show provides general
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
or guest should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
or treatment program.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome to Fight to Thrive Live, a podcast about thriving
for those who have been affected by a cancer of
chronic disease. Doctor Lisau Schuler and I co host with
my good friend Carolyn Gazella. You can find all of
our past show podcasts on iHeartRadio, Spotify, Pandora, iTunes, Stitcher,
and on our website ive plan dot com. Well tonight,
(01:02):
I'm going to be talking with Judy Pearson, who is
a best selling author, an accomplished presenter, and a graduate
of Michigan State University. But her favorite title is storyteller
with a little research junkie thrown in there, and those
characteristics have resulted in six biographies, including award winners and
a bestseller. An accomplished presenter, Judy has turned her books
(01:25):
subjects into presentations viewed by thousands in the US and
the UK. She was named one of Chicago's most Inspirational Women,
selected as a finalist for the Arizona Healthcare Leadership Awards
and named a Phoenix Healthcare Hero. Judy and her husband
live on Florida's beautiful Gulf Coast, where long beach walks
(01:46):
ignite her creativity. And before we get to Judy, I
want to thank our sponsors, without whom the show would
not be would not be possible. First, we have Cetria,
a patented form of glutathione clinically proven to raise blood
Guathion loves Gudathiona is the master antioxidant in the body's
primary defense against free radicals. It also helps to support
(02:08):
respiratory health, so for more information you can go to
Cetria at gludathion dot com. Also, Cognizant stcholine nature's way
of keeping your brain firing in all cylinders. So if
you want to enhance your brain function, including memory, focus,
and attention, look for Cognizant on the label of a
dietary supplement or go to cognizant dot com for more information.
(02:30):
We also think pro thrivers wellness supplements, including pro Thrivers
Wellness Sleep, a supplement which combines higher dose melatonin and
other sleep supporting natural ingredients. Specifically designed for thrivers, and
you can find pro Thrivers Wellness sleep at Pure Formulas
dot com. Finally, doctor Hir's Probotics, a best selling probotic
for over thirty years, contains twelve probiotic strains which are
(02:53):
shelf stable without refrigeration due to their unique three year
fermentation process, and you can learn more at doctor Heroprobiotics
dot com. Well, Hello, Judy, welcome to five to Thrive Live.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Hello, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Absolutely well, I'm really excited to be talking about this book.
So first, maybe just tell us the book's name and
then we'll get into it.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Absolutely The book is called Radical Sisters. It is the
story of Shirley Temple, Black, Rose Kushner, Evan Laughter, and
the dawn of the breast cancer movement.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Okay, something we kind of almost take for granted now,
So this is important stuff. So set the scene force
What was America like, especially with regards to women's health
in the last decades of the twentieth century.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
It was a bizarre mix of the Dark Ages and
just an absolute veil of secrecy. Most of the doctors
were men. Things weren't explained to when they were considered
to be either not smart enough or too emotional to understand.
And they actually the doctors actually went into surgical waiting
(04:11):
rooms to ask husbands, fathers, brothers their preferences regarding their
loved ones breast cancer surgery in this case, but other
types of surgery as well, to ask their preference, instead
of asking the woman prior to her own surgery.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, Soun's really quite awful. And at this in addition
to that, outside of the surgical suite, breast cancer was
not really talked about in public either.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
It was not you know Bress always adored, often ignored.
Cancer was incredibly feared and in fact, until about really
it didn't disappear, probably till the nineties. It was thought
to be contagious. So if you've got a cancer diagnosis,
you could lose your job, if you had insurance that
(05:02):
could be taken away. You couldn't adopt children, you couldn't
join the military. Childhood survivors couldn't find college roommates. It
was ridiculous. If you got invited to a Christmas cocktail
party and you were a cancer survivor, you'd be served
on paper plates because they were afraid that you would
spread your if you got invited at all, that you
(05:23):
would spread your cancer drooms. So it was pretty crazy
and it didn't have a great outcome. About two and
four cancer diagnoses, diagnoses were not survivors, they died. And
then with breast cancer, the two things that really played
(05:48):
against women. First of all was what was called the
one step procedure. A woman would present with a lump
and excuse me. Her doctor would continually assure her it
was fine, it was nothing. She'd go to the hospital
because biopsies were impatient procedures at that time, and they'd
(06:09):
sign the necessary paperwork be put under. If cancer was
determined from their tumor, the doctor would just amputate their
breast right then, without talking to them, without waking them up.
It was absolutely horrible.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Excuse wow, yeah, I mean that just sounds like something
that not at all today.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
It actually wasn't. Yeah, it absolutely wasn't, And in fact,
I interviewed a an oncologist who said it was truly
barbaric because there was no medical reason that it had
to be done like that. You know, a breast tumor,
when you can finally find, when you can finally feel
(06:51):
a lump, that cancer has been growing for a year,
two years, so another week or two is not going
to make any difference. And then the other really awful
thing was what was called a radical masstectomy. So the
title is sort of a play on words radical meaning
like we think of it somebody who's really out there.
(07:12):
But a radical mass s tectomy was first performed in
the late eighteen hundreds by doctor Halstead, William Halsted, who
tried to get to the root of the cancer. And
the word radical is root in Latin, and so he
thought the more he cut, the better it would be.
(07:33):
So in addition to taking the breast, they took all
the lymph nodes, they took peck muscles. Sometimes they took
clavicles and rib cages. And women were left debilitated, embarrassed.
They led a life of shame and hid in a closet.
Some even threatened suicide.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Well, yeah, so there were a few heroic figures that
stood out at this time. So the first one that
you talked about is Shirley Temple Black. So was she
what of the first public speakers, to public figures to
speak out in What did she speak out about?
Speaker 3 (08:06):
She was absolutely the first to talk about breast cancer.
So again back to the idea that breasts were so
adored and yet ignored. You didn't talk about your own
breasts ever in public, and as I said, you didn't
talk about cancer. So when she found her lump, her
movie career was long behind her. She had just been
(08:29):
appointed a delegate to the United Nations and she was
actually preparing for her swearing in ceremony. Her doctor had
instructed her a decade or two or two earlier about
self exams, which were also really unheard of at that
time that we're talking nineteen seventy two here, and she
felt a lump, and by the time she could actually
(08:54):
get scheduled with her doctor, about a month and a
half had passed. And she famously said, the doctor can
make the incision, but I'm going to make the decision.
And so she instructed her doctor at Stanford, you take
out whatever you need to detect whether this is cancer
or not, and then I'll decide what I'm going to
(09:17):
do from there, And she chose a modified mess ectomy,
which meant that they took the breast and some of
the lymph nodes. We didn't understand how lymph nodes worked
or what their importance was, and now we have sentinel
node biopsies that we can determine how involved lymph nodes are,
but at the time that wasn't the case. And so
(09:39):
she then decided to go public and she held a
press conference in her hospital room, which was totally unheard of.
I actually watched the video you can find it online,
and there she is in her hospital room with her
little Guardinia behind her ear, looking all beautiful, telling women
that they needed to touch their breasts and or you know,
(10:01):
and do exams and then not to sit home and
be afraid because if it was bad news, that's what
women did. They just stayed home and worried.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, right, well, well, you know, it just takes so
much courage to make those kind of decisions, particularly when
you're dealing with a disease that feels life threatening, that
is life threatening, and you're up against a very entrenched
medical establishment, so that's quite courageous. And then there are
another person that you speak about is Rosekushner. So she
(10:34):
did some specific things to make her voice heard. Can
you tell us a little bit about her?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
I will, And let me just say that all three
of these women did an amazing thing. They use their
own diagnoses to help others. Surely said, how can I
help my sisters? So she followed up that press conference
with a seven page McCall's magazine article, which again was
a really important thing. Rose found her own lump two
(11:04):
years later, in nineteen seventy four, before she even went
to see her doctor. She found the lump on Saturday,
called her doctor Monday morning. He couldn't see her till
the afternoon. So she lived in Baltimore, near the National
Institute of Health. She went to the amazing National Library
of Medicine, where I've done lots of research looking for information,
(11:26):
and there was nothing for just ordinary women. But what
she found was, of course the whole one step procedure
and the radical messtectomy. And when she did finally get
to her doctor, she said, I'm not having it. She
made her surgeons sign a document saying that I will
take only the lump, and when she came to he
(11:49):
was looming over her head and said, well, you've just
killed yourself. You have cancer and now you're going to die.
And of course that was ridiculous. She had to go
from Baltimore all the way to Buffalo to Roswell Park
Cancer Center to find a surgeon who would do a
modified radical mess ectomy. And she was a budding journalist
(12:14):
trying to break into the big time. It's hard, I
know it is. And she wrote a story about her experience,
but no one would publish it. And then just a
few months after Roses cancer, first lady Betty Ford was
diagnosed and suddenly Rose's article became timely. She said, if
(12:39):
she'd known that breast cancer would get her into the
Washington Post, she would have arranged to get it years earlier.
And then that article became the very first handbook for
women who were diagnosed with cancer, was published just about
exactly a year after her own diagnosis. So, just like Rose,
(12:59):
she started helping other people. And we know that volunteering
or pro social behavior, whatever you want to call it,
I call it finding a second act after cancer. That
is a really healthy thing to do. So actually all
three of these women did that. But she proclaimed she
had a loud voice in a stubborn streak, and she
(13:20):
started testifying before Congress and because of her, their insurance
was mandated. Insurance companies were mandated to cover reconstruction mamography,
which was just coming into being, and Rose made it
possible for us to have our treatments covered because I
(13:42):
too am a cancer survivor.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Amazing, I mean, really just remarkable, and I mean oddly,
you know, even though when we were talking about the
nineteen seventies, that doesn't feel too long ago. So it's
just really remarkable there are women living today that probably
were diagnosed in this transformative time.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Well, and you're absolutely right. And all of my biographies
I write the way I like to read. So I
love reading biography, but in order to appreciate the person
who's the subject, you have to kind of understand the
temperature of the country, the world, society at that time.
(14:28):
So in this particular book, I talk about women, the
women's Health movement, which was an offshoot of the Women's Movement,
and I talk about women in medicine. There weren't many,
even until golly, just the last fifteen years the numbers
have increased. It was really it was a good old
boys club. And you know, listen, I'm not anti man.
(14:51):
I have only a brother, no sisters, I have only sons,
no daughters. I like men so much, I've married three
of them. But they were just you know, going along
with society at the time. And women weren't thought to
be smart enough or emotionally stable enough to become doctors.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Right, Well, you'll be happy to know that now females
aut number males in medical school, so so definitely changed. Okay,
So the third one is Evelyn Lawder Estay Louder's daughter
in law. So she obviously had access to a lot
of wealth and privilege. So what inspired her to dedicate
herself to this work? And you know what kind of
(15:31):
drove her beyond her family's legacy in this regard.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
So when she was diagnosed with breast cancer in nineteen
eighty eight, so now we're, you know, that much further along,
and in treating it, chemotherapy existed, lompectomies were being done.
She too, like surely had access to the best healthcare,
had you know, unlimited funds, and she went through it
(15:59):
very quietly, very his stoically, although she allowed her husband,
Leonard to talk her into a radical quote unquote oncologist
who proved to be become her partner in this mission
to make cancer better for women, breast cancer better for women.
His name is doctor Larry Norton, and he actually is
(16:21):
still at Memorial Sloan kettering. So the first thing that
Evelyn realized, and she said, you know, we've asked women
for decades to trust in us, to buy our family's products.
Now it's time we gave back. So she sat doctor
Norton down at her kitchen table and said, look, I
had to travel all over the city over here for
(16:45):
diagnostic mammogram, over there for more testing, over here to
get treatment, and then afterwards then there was go there
for the wig, go there for whatever psychosocial help I needed.
And I had a limousine. I can't imagine what it
would be like for a woman who had to take
the subway ors or crisscross the country or the city
in a cab. And so she said that she envisioned
(17:09):
a breast center sort of like a department store. You know,
you can go into a department store. You can buy cosmetics,
of course, and then housewares and chunking's clothes and shoes.
And she said, that's what I want to see happen.
And although the latter money certainly could have built that
breast center, she wanted the city and hopefully the country
(17:31):
to buy into it. So they started fundraising and three
years later the Evelyn laughter Breast Center opened at Memorial's
Sloane Kettering the very first of its kind. Now it's like,
not such a big deal. And then she and doctor
Norton sat down again realizing that there was a real
(17:52):
dearth of research dollars because by the time a researcher
can be considered for let's say, a National Cancer Institute
grant to further their research, they had to be pretty
far along. So the younger investigators, those who didn't have
lots of contacts, while they may have had great ideas,
(18:16):
they just they just weren't followed up on. They wanted
to create grants for these out of the box ideas,
and they together doctor Norton and Evelyn created the Breast
Cancer Research Foundation, which funded doctor Mary Claire King's research.
She was the discoverer of the Broca genetic mutation. They
(18:38):
funded all kinds of other research that have now has
now resulted into a much easier road for breast cancer
survivors to follow. And then those two projects book ended
probably her most famous project. Evelyn and her good friend
(18:59):
el Lexandra Penny, who was at that time the editor
of Self magazine, are the co creators of the Pink
Ribbon a California grandmother was handing out peach colored ribbons
and when they read about her, they said, oh, what
a great idea. So they contacted her and Charlotte was
this grandmother's name, and Charlotte said no, she didn't want
(19:20):
to partner with them, and they said why and she said,
because you'll just commercialize it. And they were like, but
do you realize the reach we have and Charlotte said,
I don't care and hung up. And they were dumbfounded.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
So they went to their lawyers and said, what can
we do? And the lawyer said, pick a different color,
and so they picked pink, And of course, the pink
ribbon is the most famous breast cancer icon. We tossed
the word awareness around a lot today, but in the
nineties and even the first decade of this century, there
(19:54):
was not much awareness. People were afraid, people were busy
with other things, and so the awareness that that created
was huge in saving lives of all the women and men,
because men get breast cancer too rarely, but they get it.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Who came afterwards, Yeah, I think that that. You know,
some people sort of get turned off by the pink,
but honestly, that pink ribbon did almost more for breast
cancer than I mean, aside from some of the treatments
that I can think of, because it really took something
that was taboo and shameful and it brought it out
(20:31):
into the open in a very profound way. So all
of a sudden, you know, women were almost empowered about
their cancer journey. And yeah, total change in how absolutely
breast cancer was managed.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
And I was one of those women at the outset
where you know, my treatment actually ended in November. I started,
I had my surgery in late May, just after a
Memorial Day, and then my chemo started and I finished
my chemotherapy a week after thanks in November of twenty eleven,
and watching Pink Tober and the NFL point wearing pink
(21:08):
and this guy wearing pink and you know, eat yogurt
and support breast cancer, and I was like, this is
just a big sham and some of it might be materialized,
but by golly, it brought awareness to the disease, didn't it.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, well, I think it also conveyed you know, like
all the people behind the dan and yogurt and the
football players were in support of saw the human behind
the cancer. And I think that's a really critical part
of it. So these three radical sisters never met, did they.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
They didn't, They didn't. Certainly Rose would have been aware
of Shirley Temple and aware of the latter name. And
by the time, and Shirley was interesting. Surely, after the
McCall's article came out in January, the year after her cancer,
she had her treatment in November. The McCall's article came
(22:02):
out in January. In March of seventy three, she went
on the Mike Douglas Show and then that was the
end of her cancer. Advocacy certainly was a great deal.
So by the time Rose sadly died of metastasis of
her disease, her voice was so loud. She used to say,
you know, I have a loud voice and a suborn streak.
(22:24):
And they certainly would have known of her. But they
just kind of came and went in this beautiful arc
and just to kind of tell the secret of publishing.
So authors come up with ideas, but then their agents
and their editors were all in the business to make
(22:46):
money with these books and get a say. And in
my case, my editor and agent said I wanted to
write about Rose, and they were like you know what,
she sounds wonderful, But if we added some better known names,
that will kind of elevate the overall title and thereby
hopefully sales. And I kind of pouted for a day
and then came back and said, okay, and Lisa just
(23:09):
made this beautiful story. It was the three really made
a wonderful history. Again, it was the dawn of the
breast cancer movement, which didn't pick up until then the mid.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
To late nineties. Yeah, I'm glad you have all three
in there. I think that that's so much more powerful. So,
you know, you mentioned you're a breast cancer survivor and
you wrote the book. Was that part of the original
motivation for writing the book? Did that make it easier
more difficult?
Speaker 3 (23:41):
You know, it's funny. I'm being asked that a lot,
and that never even occurred to me while I was
writing it. After my own cancer, I was already a biographer.
I was writing about World War two and actually looking
for the next story to tell when I was diagnosed.
So on the other side of cancer, I couldn't find
(24:03):
the story. So I started a little organization and met
a woman who became the inspiration for my first post
cancer book, and that's called From Shadows to Life, and
it's the biography of the cancer survivorship movement, which is
a whole other story and very interesting. And actually that
particular woman who was my inspiration lived in Tucson, lives
(24:27):
in Tucson's Bill and worked for the cancer Center at
the University of Arizona. In that book, I learned about Rose,
I learned about Mary Lasker, who was the subject of
my second post cancer book. And I just get driven
to tell these stories. But it wasn't difficult for me,
(24:50):
and I didn't even think other than be interested in saying,
oh wow, that's why they do that, or that's why
they say that, or oh wow, that was really awful.
I'm glad I got answer when I did. By had
I did it? Other than that, it was just sort
of not even in my mind that I was writing
because of me. But what I do recognize beyond everything
(25:15):
is the debt of gratitude iotes women. Mm.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, well that's beautifully said. So, you know, you've written
this book about the Donna the breast cancer movement, and
what would be a home run for you with this book?
What do you want it to accomplish?
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Well, as I said, the importance with any life challenge
is to find the treasure in your wreckage. What happened
to you, whether it's cancer or anything else, is awful.
So you can't undo the diagnosis, you can't undo the tragedy,
but perhaps some good could come of it. And when
(25:53):
you find that good, there's a great deal of healing
and helping. So that's what you need to do moving forward.
And secondly, then i'd really like readers to consider what
they would do following what Shirley Rose and Evelyn did.
There's one of my favorite quotes that applies in fact
(26:16):
to this occidental trilogy that I've written. That cultural anthropologist
Margaret Meade said, never doubt that a small group of thoughtful,
committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only
thing that ever has. So even if it's if we're
not celebrities and we're not billionaires, we're just ordinary people
like I am, it doesn't matter. You know, if you
(26:39):
can help one person that might make your difficulty, your
life challenge might make it makes sense to you and
certainly can help the person who's in need.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Well, and I think too, you know, having that historical
perspective on the sort of the public awareness and the
way in which we hold this disease and the women
who are diagnosed with it. Having that historical perspective, I
think empowers women in a very unique way. It's one
thing to be given a lot of autonomy and your
(27:14):
decision making and be given hope and all of that.
Those are empowering too, But remembering that women were very
courageous before you, and that some of the decisions that
we are allowed to make were actually because of their
courage is actually an empowering thing. It kind of for
me at least, it makes me feel connected to a
(27:35):
group even of unseen women, women who I never met
and never will meet. So you know, it's part of
a bigger, better collective. So what final thoughts would you
like to leave with our listeners.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
You know, I just really hope that whether you have
experienced any cancer, breast cancer, that you will look back
in history, because we think at the time that something happens,
that it's the end of the world, and then when
(28:08):
you realize that other people have had it rough, that
times have been tougher than this, that whatever, as you
just said, whatever we do today can impact the future.
And it's really really important to study the past because
you know you it not only inspires you, but we
learn from the past. That's why the National Archives, which
(28:32):
is like a second home to me. Above the door,
it says the past is prologue, meaning everything that happens
in the past is just the start of the story.
So I hope that readers read it and think about that.
And you know, while it's a story about breast cancer,
it's a story about three boss babes, and who wouldn't
(28:53):
love that kind of inspiration? That's right?
Speaker 2 (28:55):
So how can people find your book? Where should they go?
Speaker 3 (28:58):
It's available everywhere. The prologue is available free of charge,
as are all my prologs on my website Judith L.
Pearson P E A R S o N dot com.
Follow me on Instagram at Judith P Writs. And I
love book clubs. Invite me to your book club virtually
or in person. And lastly, on every book page on
(29:21):
my website, there's a little button you can click and
I will send you an autographed book plate that you
can stick inside your book, and that way it makes
it a great gift. Black Friday's coming. Start shopping all
of it wonderful.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Well, thank you so much, Judy, it's been really a
delight speaking with you, and thank you for writing this
book and bringing our history forward. And that wraps up
this episode of five to Thrive Live again. We thank
our sponsors First pro Thrivers Wellness sleep formula, also Cetria
Glutathio the superior glutathio to support liver and immune health,
(29:58):
Cognizance Citicoli to help enhance memory, focus and attention, and
doctor here is award winning chef Stable Probiotic and thank
you listener for joining us. May you experience joy, laughter
and love. It's time to thrive everyone, have a great night.
Any health related information on the following show provides general
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
or guest should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
or treatment program.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome to Fight to Thrive Live, a podcast about thriving
for those who have been affected by a cancer of
chronic disease. Doctor Lisau Schuler and I co host with
my good friend Carolyn Gazella. You can find all of
our past show podcasts on iHeartRadio, Spotify, Pandora, iTunes, Stitcher,
and on our website ive plan dot com. Well tonight,
(01:02):
I'm going to be talking with Judy Pearson, who is
a best selling author, an accomplished presenter, and a graduate
of Michigan State University. But her favorite title is storyteller
with a little research junkie thrown in there, and those
characteristics have resulted in six biographies, including award winners and
a bestseller. An accomplished presenter, Judy has turned her books
(01:25):
subjects into presentations viewed by thousands in the US and
the UK. She was named one of Chicago's most Inspirational Women,
selected as a finalist for the Arizona Healthcare Leadership Awards
and named a Phoenix Healthcare Hero. Judy and her husband
live on Florida's beautiful Gulf Coast, where long beach walks
(01:46):
ignite her creativity. And before we get to Judy, I
want to thank our sponsors, without whom the show would
not be would not be possible. First, we have Cetria,
a patented form of glutathione clinically proven to raise blood
Guathion loves Gudathiona is the master antioxidant in the body's
primary defense against free radicals. It also helps to support
(02:08):
respiratory health, so for more information you can go to
Cetria at gludathion dot com. Also, Cognizant stcholine nature's way
of keeping your brain firing in all cylinders. So if
you want to enhance your brain function, including memory, focus,
and attention, look for Cognizant on the label of a
dietary supplement or go to cognizant dot com for more information.
(02:30):
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dot com. Well, Hello, Judy, welcome to five to Thrive Live.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Hello, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Absolutely well, I'm really excited to be talking about this book.
So first, maybe just tell us the book's name and
then we'll get into it.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Absolutely The book is called Radical Sisters. It is the
story of Shirley Temple, Black, Rose Kushner, Evan Laughter, and
the dawn of the breast cancer movement.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Okay, something we kind of almost take for granted now,
So this is important stuff. So set the scene force
What was America like, especially with regards to women's health
in the last decades of the twentieth century.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
It was a bizarre mix of the Dark Ages and
just an absolute veil of secrecy. Most of the doctors
were men. Things weren't explained to when they were considered
to be either not smart enough or too emotional to understand.
And they actually the doctors actually went into surgical waiting
(04:11):
rooms to ask husbands, fathers, brothers their preferences regarding their
loved ones breast cancer surgery in this case, but other
types of surgery as well, to ask their preference, instead
of asking the woman prior to her own surgery.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, Soun's really quite awful. And at this in addition
to that, outside of the surgical suite, breast cancer was
not really talked about in public either.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
It was not you know Bress always adored, often ignored.
Cancer was incredibly feared and in fact, until about really
it didn't disappear, probably till the nineties. It was thought
to be contagious. So if you've got a cancer diagnosis,
you could lose your job, if you had insurance that
(05:02):
could be taken away. You couldn't adopt children, you couldn't
join the military. Childhood survivors couldn't find college roommates. It
was ridiculous. If you got invited to a Christmas cocktail
party and you were a cancer survivor, you'd be served
on paper plates because they were afraid that you would
spread your if you got invited at all, that you
(05:23):
would spread your cancer drooms. So it was pretty crazy
and it didn't have a great outcome. About two and
four cancer diagnoses, diagnoses were not survivors, they died. And
then with breast cancer, the two things that really played
(05:48):
against women. First of all was what was called the
one step procedure. A woman would present with a lump
and excuse me. Her doctor would continually assure her it
was fine, it was nothing. She'd go to the hospital
because biopsies were impatient procedures at that time, and they'd
(06:09):
sign the necessary paperwork be put under. If cancer was
determined from their tumor, the doctor would just amputate their
breast right then, without talking to them, without waking them up.
It was absolutely horrible.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Excuse wow, yeah, I mean that just sounds like something
that not at all today.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
It actually wasn't. Yeah, it absolutely wasn't, And in fact,
I interviewed a an oncologist who said it was truly
barbaric because there was no medical reason that it had
to be done like that. You know, a breast tumor,
when you can finally find, when you can finally feel
(06:51):
a lump, that cancer has been growing for a year,
two years, so another week or two is not going
to make any difference. And then the other really awful
thing was what was called a radical masstectomy. So the
title is sort of a play on words radical meaning
like we think of it somebody who's really out there.
(07:12):
But a radical mass s tectomy was first performed in
the late eighteen hundreds by doctor Halstead, William Halsted, who
tried to get to the root of the cancer. And
the word radical is root in Latin, and so he
thought the more he cut, the better it would be.
(07:33):
So in addition to taking the breast, they took all
the lymph nodes, they took peck muscles. Sometimes they took
clavicles and rib cages. And women were left debilitated, embarrassed.
They led a life of shame and hid in a closet.
Some even threatened suicide.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Well, yeah, so there were a few heroic figures that
stood out at this time. So the first one that
you talked about is Shirley Temple Black. So was she
what of the first public speakers, to public figures to
speak out in What did she speak out about?
Speaker 3 (08:06):
She was absolutely the first to talk about breast cancer.
So again back to the idea that breasts were so
adored and yet ignored. You didn't talk about your own
breasts ever in public, and as I said, you didn't
talk about cancer. So when she found her lump, her
movie career was long behind her. She had just been
(08:29):
appointed a delegate to the United Nations and she was
actually preparing for her swearing in ceremony. Her doctor had
instructed her a decade or two or two earlier about
self exams, which were also really unheard of at that
time that we're talking nineteen seventy two here, and she
felt a lump, and by the time she could actually
(08:54):
get scheduled with her doctor, about a month and a
half had passed. And she famously said, the doctor can
make the incision, but I'm going to make the decision.
And so she instructed her doctor at Stanford, you take
out whatever you need to detect whether this is cancer
or not, and then I'll decide what I'm going to
(09:17):
do from there, And she chose a modified mess ectomy,
which meant that they took the breast and some of
the lymph nodes. We didn't understand how lymph nodes worked
or what their importance was, and now we have sentinel
node biopsies that we can determine how involved lymph nodes are,
but at the time that wasn't the case. And so
(09:39):
she then decided to go public and she held a
press conference in her hospital room, which was totally unheard of.
I actually watched the video you can find it online,
and there she is in her hospital room with her
little Guardinia behind her ear, looking all beautiful, telling women
that they needed to touch their breasts and or you know,
(10:01):
and do exams and then not to sit home and
be afraid because if it was bad news, that's what
women did. They just stayed home and worried.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, right, well, well, you know, it just takes so
much courage to make those kind of decisions, particularly when
you're dealing with a disease that feels life threatening, that
is life threatening, and you're up against a very entrenched
medical establishment, so that's quite courageous. And then there are
another person that you speak about is Rosekushner. So she
(10:34):
did some specific things to make her voice heard. Can
you tell us a little bit about her?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
I will, And let me just say that all three
of these women did an amazing thing. They use their
own diagnoses to help others. Surely said, how can I
help my sisters? So she followed up that press conference
with a seven page McCall's magazine article, which again was
a really important thing. Rose found her own lump two
(11:04):
years later, in nineteen seventy four, before she even went
to see her doctor. She found the lump on Saturday,
called her doctor Monday morning. He couldn't see her till
the afternoon. So she lived in Baltimore, near the National
Institute of Health. She went to the amazing National Library
of Medicine, where I've done lots of research looking for information,
(11:26):
and there was nothing for just ordinary women. But what
she found was, of course the whole one step procedure
and the radical messtectomy. And when she did finally get
to her doctor, she said, I'm not having it. She
made her surgeons sign a document saying that I will
take only the lump, and when she came to he
(11:49):
was looming over her head and said, well, you've just
killed yourself. You have cancer and now you're going to die.
And of course that was ridiculous. She had to go
from Baltimore all the way to Buffalo to Roswell Park
Cancer Center to find a surgeon who would do a
modified radical mess ectomy. And she was a budding journalist
(12:14):
trying to break into the big time. It's hard, I
know it is. And she wrote a story about her experience,
but no one would publish it. And then just a
few months after Roses cancer, first lady Betty Ford was
diagnosed and suddenly Rose's article became timely. She said, if
(12:39):
she'd known that breast cancer would get her into the
Washington Post, she would have arranged to get it years earlier.
And then that article became the very first handbook for
women who were diagnosed with cancer, was published just about
exactly a year after her own diagnosis. So, just like Rose,
(12:59):
she started helping other people. And we know that volunteering
or pro social behavior, whatever you want to call it,
I call it finding a second act after cancer. That
is a really healthy thing to do. So actually all
three of these women did that. But she proclaimed she
had a loud voice in a stubborn streak, and she
(13:20):
started testifying before Congress and because of her, their insurance
was mandated. Insurance companies were mandated to cover reconstruction mamography,
which was just coming into being, and Rose made it
possible for us to have our treatments covered because I
(13:42):
too am a cancer survivor.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Amazing, I mean, really just remarkable, and I mean oddly,
you know, even though when we were talking about the
nineteen seventies, that doesn't feel too long ago. So it's
just really remarkable there are women living today that probably
were diagnosed in this transformative time.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Well, and you're absolutely right. And all of my biographies
I write the way I like to read. So I
love reading biography, but in order to appreciate the person
who's the subject, you have to kind of understand the
temperature of the country, the world, society at that time.
(14:28):
So in this particular book, I talk about women, the
women's Health movement, which was an offshoot of the Women's Movement,
and I talk about women in medicine. There weren't many,
even until golly, just the last fifteen years the numbers
have increased. It was really it was a good old
boys club. And you know, listen, I'm not anti man.
(14:51):
I have only a brother, no sisters, I have only sons,
no daughters. I like men so much, I've married three
of them. But they were just you know, going along
with society at the time. And women weren't thought to
be smart enough or emotionally stable enough to become doctors.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Right, Well, you'll be happy to know that now females
aut number males in medical school, so so definitely changed. Okay,
So the third one is Evelyn Lawder Estay Louder's daughter
in law. So she obviously had access to a lot
of wealth and privilege. So what inspired her to dedicate
herself to this work? And you know what kind of
(15:31):
drove her beyond her family's legacy in this regard.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
So when she was diagnosed with breast cancer in nineteen
eighty eight, so now we're, you know, that much further along,
and in treating it, chemotherapy existed, lompectomies were being done.
She too, like surely had access to the best healthcare,
had you know, unlimited funds, and she went through it
(15:59):
very quietly, very his stoically, although she allowed her husband,
Leonard to talk her into a radical quote unquote oncologist
who proved to be become her partner in this mission
to make cancer better for women, breast cancer better for women.
His name is doctor Larry Norton, and he actually is
(16:21):
still at Memorial Sloan kettering. So the first thing that
Evelyn realized, and she said, you know, we've asked women
for decades to trust in us, to buy our family's products.
Now it's time we gave back. So she sat doctor
Norton down at her kitchen table and said, look, I
had to travel all over the city over here for
(16:45):
diagnostic mammogram, over there for more testing, over here to
get treatment, and then afterwards then there was go there
for the wig, go there for whatever psychosocial help I needed.
And I had a limousine. I can't imagine what it
would be like for a woman who had to take
the subway ors or crisscross the country or the city
in a cab. And so she said that she envisioned
(17:09):
a breast center sort of like a department store. You know,
you can go into a department store. You can buy cosmetics,
of course, and then housewares and chunking's clothes and shoes.
And she said, that's what I want to see happen.
And although the latter money certainly could have built that
breast center, she wanted the city and hopefully the country
(17:31):
to buy into it. So they started fundraising and three
years later the Evelyn laughter Breast Center opened at Memorial's
Sloane Kettering the very first of its kind. Now it's like,
not such a big deal. And then she and doctor
Norton sat down again realizing that there was a real
(17:52):
dearth of research dollars because by the time a researcher
can be considered for let's say, a National Cancer Institute
grant to further their research, they had to be pretty
far along. So the younger investigators, those who didn't have
lots of contacts, while they may have had great ideas,
(18:16):
they just they just weren't followed up on. They wanted
to create grants for these out of the box ideas,
and they together doctor Norton and Evelyn created the Breast
Cancer Research Foundation, which funded doctor Mary Claire King's research.
She was the discoverer of the Broca genetic mutation. They
(18:38):
funded all kinds of other research that have now has
now resulted into a much easier road for breast cancer
survivors to follow. And then those two projects book ended
probably her most famous project. Evelyn and her good friend
(18:59):
el Lexandra Penny, who was at that time the editor
of Self magazine, are the co creators of the Pink
Ribbon a California grandmother was handing out peach colored ribbons
and when they read about her, they said, oh, what
a great idea. So they contacted her and Charlotte was
this grandmother's name, and Charlotte said no, she didn't want
(19:20):
to partner with them, and they said why and she said,
because you'll just commercialize it. And they were like, but
do you realize the reach we have and Charlotte said,
I don't care and hung up. And they were dumbfounded.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
So they went to their lawyers and said, what can
we do? And the lawyer said, pick a different color,
and so they picked pink, And of course, the pink
ribbon is the most famous breast cancer icon. We tossed
the word awareness around a lot today, but in the
nineties and even the first decade of this century, there
(19:54):
was not much awareness. People were afraid, people were busy
with other things, and so the awareness that that created
was huge in saving lives of all the women and men,
because men get breast cancer too rarely, but they get it.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Who came afterwards, Yeah, I think that that. You know,
some people sort of get turned off by the pink,
but honestly, that pink ribbon did almost more for breast
cancer than I mean, aside from some of the treatments
that I can think of, because it really took something
that was taboo and shameful and it brought it out
(20:31):
into the open in a very profound way. So all
of a sudden, you know, women were almost empowered about
their cancer journey. And yeah, total change in how absolutely
breast cancer was managed.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
And I was one of those women at the outset
where you know, my treatment actually ended in November. I started,
I had my surgery in late May, just after a
Memorial Day, and then my chemo started and I finished
my chemotherapy a week after thanks in November of twenty eleven,
and watching Pink Tober and the NFL point wearing pink
(21:08):
and this guy wearing pink and you know, eat yogurt
and support breast cancer, and I was like, this is
just a big sham and some of it might be materialized,
but by golly, it brought awareness to the disease, didn't it.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, well, I think it also conveyed you know, like
all the people behind the dan and yogurt and the
football players were in support of saw the human behind
the cancer. And I think that's a really critical part
of it. So these three radical sisters never met, did they.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
They didn't, They didn't. Certainly Rose would have been aware
of Shirley Temple and aware of the latter name. And
by the time, and Shirley was interesting. Surely, after the
McCall's article came out in January, the year after her cancer,
she had her treatment in November. The McCall's article came
(22:02):
out in January. In March of seventy three, she went
on the Mike Douglas Show and then that was the
end of her cancer. Advocacy certainly was a great deal.
So by the time Rose sadly died of metastasis of
her disease, her voice was so loud. She used to say,
you know, I have a loud voice and a suborn streak.
(22:24):
And they certainly would have known of her. But they
just kind of came and went in this beautiful arc
and just to kind of tell the secret of publishing.
So authors come up with ideas, but then their agents
and their editors were all in the business to make
(22:46):
money with these books and get a say. And in
my case, my editor and agent said I wanted to
write about Rose, and they were like you know what,
she sounds wonderful, But if we added some better known names,
that will kind of elevate the overall title and thereby
hopefully sales. And I kind of pouted for a day
and then came back and said, okay, and Lisa just
(23:09):
made this beautiful story. It was the three really made
a wonderful history. Again, it was the dawn of the
breast cancer movement, which didn't pick up until then the mid.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
To late nineties. Yeah, I'm glad you have all three
in there. I think that that's so much more powerful. So,
you know, you mentioned you're a breast cancer survivor and
you wrote the book. Was that part of the original
motivation for writing the book? Did that make it easier
more difficult?
Speaker 3 (23:41):
You know, it's funny. I'm being asked that a lot,
and that never even occurred to me while I was
writing it. After my own cancer, I was already a biographer.
I was writing about World War two and actually looking
for the next story to tell when I was diagnosed.
So on the other side of cancer, I couldn't find
(24:03):
the story. So I started a little organization and met
a woman who became the inspiration for my first post
cancer book, and that's called From Shadows to Life, and
it's the biography of the cancer survivorship movement, which is
a whole other story and very interesting. And actually that
particular woman who was my inspiration lived in Tucson, lives
(24:27):
in Tucson's Bill and worked for the cancer Center at
the University of Arizona. In that book, I learned about Rose,
I learned about Mary Lasker, who was the subject of
my second post cancer book. And I just get driven
to tell these stories. But it wasn't difficult for me,
(24:50):
and I didn't even think other than be interested in saying,
oh wow, that's why they do that, or that's why
they say that, or oh wow, that was really awful.
I'm glad I got answer when I did. By had
I did it? Other than that, it was just sort
of not even in my mind that I was writing
because of me. But what I do recognize beyond everything
(25:15):
is the debt of gratitude iotes women. Mm.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, well that's beautifully said. So, you know, you've written
this book about the Donna the breast cancer movement, and
what would be a home run for you with this book?
What do you want it to accomplish?
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Well, as I said, the importance with any life challenge
is to find the treasure in your wreckage. What happened
to you, whether it's cancer or anything else, is awful.
So you can't undo the diagnosis, you can't undo the tragedy,
but perhaps some good could come of it. And when
(25:53):
you find that good, there's a great deal of healing
and helping. So that's what you need to do moving forward.
And secondly, then i'd really like readers to consider what
they would do following what Shirley Rose and Evelyn did.
There's one of my favorite quotes that applies in fact
(26:16):
to this occidental trilogy that I've written. That cultural anthropologist
Margaret Meade said, never doubt that a small group of thoughtful,
committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only
thing that ever has. So even if it's if we're
not celebrities and we're not billionaires, we're just ordinary people
like I am, it doesn't matter. You know, if you
(26:39):
can help one person that might make your difficulty, your
life challenge might make it makes sense to you and
certainly can help the person who's in need.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Well, and I think too, you know, having that historical
perspective on the sort of the public awareness and the
way in which we hold this disease and the women
who are diagnosed with it. Having that historical perspective, I
think empowers women in a very unique way. It's one
thing to be given a lot of autonomy and your
(27:14):
decision making and be given hope and all of that.
Those are empowering too, But remembering that women were very
courageous before you, and that some of the decisions that
we are allowed to make were actually because of their
courage is actually an empowering thing. It kind of for
me at least, it makes me feel connected to a
(27:35):
group even of unseen women, women who I never met
and never will meet. So you know, it's part of
a bigger, better collective. So what final thoughts would you
like to leave with our listeners.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
You know, I just really hope that whether you have
experienced any cancer, breast cancer, that you will look back
in history, because we think at the time that something happens,
that it's the end of the world, and then when
(28:08):
you realize that other people have had it rough, that
times have been tougher than this, that whatever, as you
just said, whatever we do today can impact the future.
And it's really really important to study the past because
you know you it not only inspires you, but we
learn from the past. That's why the National Archives, which
(28:32):
is like a second home to me. Above the door,
it says the past is prologue, meaning everything that happens
in the past is just the start of the story.
So I hope that readers read it and think about that.
And you know, while it's a story about breast cancer,
it's a story about three boss babes, and who wouldn't
(28:53):
love that kind of inspiration? That's right?
Speaker 2 (28:55):
So how can people find your book? Where should they go?
Speaker 3 (28:58):
It's available everywhere. The prologue is available free of charge,
as are all my prologs on my website Judith L.
Pearson P E A R S o N dot com.
Follow me on Instagram at Judith P Writs. And I
love book clubs. Invite me to your book club virtually
or in person. And lastly, on every book page on
(29:21):
my website, there's a little button you can click and
I will send you an autographed book plate that you
can stick inside your book, and that way it makes
it a great gift. Black Friday's coming. Start shopping all
of it wonderful.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Well, thank you so much, Judy, it's been really a
delight speaking with you, and thank you for writing this
book and bringing our history forward. And that wraps up
this episode of five to Thrive Live again. We thank
our sponsors First pro Thrivers Wellness sleep formula, also Cetria
Glutathio the superior glutathio to support liver and immune health,
(29:58):
Cognizance Citicoli to help enhance memory, focus and attention, and
doctor here is award winning chef Stable Probiotic and thank
you listener for joining us. May you experience joy, laughter
and love. It's time to thrive everyone, have a great night.
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