January 23, 2024 • 31 mins
On this episode, physician and integrative medicine specialist, Dr. David Cannon will discuss the isolation that many of us experience and will explore how empathy and synchronicity can help us to reconnect with one another.
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Five To Thrive Live is broadcast live Tuesdays at 7PM ET.
Five To Thrive Live Radio Show is broadcast on W4CS Radio – The Cancer Support Network (www.w4cs.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
Five To Thrive Live Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Any health related information on the followingshow provides general information only. Content presented
on any show by any host orguests should not be substituted for a doctor's
advice. Always consult your physician beforebeginning any new diet, exercise, or
treatment program. Welcome to five toThrive Live, a podcast about thriving for
(00:44):
those who have been affected by cancerand chronic disease, and doctor Lisa Schuller
and I co host with my goodfriend Carolyn Gazella. You can find all
of our past show podcasts on anymajor podcast outlet and also on our website,
which is I thriveplan dot com.I am delighted to have doctor David
Cannon on five to Thrive Live today. Doctor Cannon attended Duke University for his
(01:06):
undergraduate degree in chemistry before going onto get his medical degree also at Duke.
He then went on to complete hispostgraduate training and primary care internal medicine
at the University of Virginia, andfollowing residency training, he completed two years
of active duty in the US Navy. After completing his military service, doctor
Cannon practiced internal medicine and then intwo thousand and five, he completed the
(01:32):
Integrative Medicine fellowship at the University ofArizona, and since that time has shifted
his focus to an integrative style ofpractice. And I've had the pleasure of
working with doctor Cannon in several differentways, and I know he's a very
thoughtful, kind individual. And we'regoing to talk tonight about empathy, and
(01:53):
I think this is a topic thatdoesn't get discussed enough and yet is essential
would argue to healing and to havinga whole life experience. So I'm very
excited to talk about this. Beforewe do talk about this, though,
I want to thank our sponsors.First. We have NFH, an innovative
(02:14):
dietary supplement manufacturer that uses an evidencebased approach to create high quality dietary supplements
for integrative healthcare professionals. So ifyou want the highest level of confidence in
the dietary supplements that you take,ask your integrative provider about NFH products and
you can find out more at NFHdot C. We also thank Emuse,
(02:36):
a unique patented post biotic that givesyour immune system a key advantage. Muse
is found in many immune supporting dietarysupplements, so look for it on the
label. Or go to immusehealth dotcom for more information. Also cognizance of
the cooline which helps the brain tofire on all cylinders and enhance memory,
(02:57):
focus and attention, So look forCognizant on the label or go to Cognizant
dot com for more information. Andas a matter of fact, pro Thriver's
Brain is a product that contains Cognizantas well as some other brain supporting nutrients
and herbs. And you can findpro Thriver's Brain online at Pureformulas dot com.
And finally, doctor or Heroes Probiotics, a best selling probiotic for over
(03:19):
thirty years, contains twelve probiotics strainswhich are shelf stable without refrigeration due to
a unique three year fermentation process,and you can learn more at doctor Orhira
Probiotics dot com. And with that, I welcome David to the show.
Hi David Lease, thank you forinviting me. Absolutely, it really is
something I'm excited to have you talkabout empathy. But before we get into
(03:45):
the topic, we like to introduceour guests to the listeners a little bit,
So tell us a little bit aboutyourself and specifically, why do you
focus on integrative medicine well, youknow, it's really interesting when I years
ago, when I came out oftraining and from some very very reputable,
(04:05):
strong programs, I found myself notprepared in some ways for some of the
problems that my patients had, andI was I could I could treat a
septic leukemic in shock, but Iwasn't so good with things like dizzyness,
(04:25):
indigestion, and so anyway, Igot interested in exploring other options for integrated
medicine or lifestyle supplements, and butI also wanted to stay. I didn't
want to get too far away frommy traditional roots. And I was really
just so grateful to find the programin Arizona because it really did bill all
(04:51):
the things that I wanted. Ithad evidence based products and really strong faculty,
and it really was a wonderful assetto my education to help me provide
a more comprehensive care to my patients. Yeah, that's really wonderful, you
(05:16):
know, desire on your part,and I'm sure I know your patients appreciate
it. So that takes us rightin in fact to our topic tonight,
which is empathy. And you know, empathy really makes more sense in some
ways when we speak about or thinkabout isolation and loneliness, which is something
that many now experience, especially sincethe pandemic. So can you talk a
(05:41):
little bit about isolation. Yeah,you know, I think as a healthcare
provider, that was really a veryhuge issue back in twenty twenty when we
started dealing with a pandemic and people'tor wouldn't come to the office, and
(06:03):
it was a very challenging situation becauseeverybody was kind of isolated from their lives,
so to speak. And so,you know, it was a real
challenge to be able to meet people'sneeds with that disconnectedness. And as we
got better and through the pandemic,and then we started to have people coming
(06:29):
back in, you could just seethe effect on in their face, on
their body, I mean, justhow difficult it had been for them,
and how how grateful they were tobe, you know, reconnecting again.
And so that's really at that pointI I got to be a lot more
(06:51):
aware of this issue of disconnectedness andloneliness. And it turns out it wasn't
just the pandemic. Apparently, It'sbeen a trend that's been developing over time,
and I have been more and moreinterested in learning how to deal with
that and how to help people reconnectwith each other. And I was doing
(07:15):
it mainly in my medical practice,but as we'll talk a little bit about
some of these other issues, I'veseen some good coaching on how to approach
it as a culture and with otherdimensions. So yeah, and you know,
(07:36):
I think in some ways the anecdoteto isolation is connectedness, which you
know, it's easier said than done. I think one way that people can
create connectedness is through empathy. Solet's actually just talk about empathy for a
moment, maybe just define it alittle bit. Ye. Well, I
(07:59):
think empathy is a true, sincereconcern for the other person and where they
are in their life and their situation. But it's a little bit more than
just the awareness like compassion, Likeyou can have compassion for a person and
(08:22):
you're not really necessarily doing anything aboutit. But empathy does put in that
dimension of connection where you really actuallynot only are trying to be aware of
what that person's needs are or wherethey are, but also to let them
know you're you want to connect withthem and be helpful if you can or
(08:46):
whatever. So it's it's there's anaction step. I think to empathy where
and again it's it helps, ithelps more with that connectedness. So connectedness
antidote to isolation. Empathy is kindof a way to maybe create a sense
of connectedness. Let me just goback for a second to isolation. You
(09:09):
mentioned to me in an email thatthere was a recent report by the Surgeon
General kind of on this topic.Can you give us a little, you
know, quick summary of what thatwas about. Yeah, it was really
fascinating. So the Surgeon General actually, well, he has created a program
where he's going around the country andthey have targeted i think twenty five universities
(09:33):
where they're going to talk to thestudent groups and faculty about this isolation and
loneliness that's actually present in our culturefor a lot of young people. And
basically he mentioned, well the firsttheir first stop was at Duke University,
and that's how I got an emailabout that presentation. So I actually watched
(10:00):
it. I didn't know anything ofwhat it was going to be like,
but it was just amazing that thesehigh caliber people that are have so many
things on their plate all the time, they were really talking about some something
very very basic, which is justconnecting with each other and the importance of
(10:20):
relationship and how how that sort ofhas gotten uh more difficult to do maybe
with social media. They mentioned thatthey talked to a lot of college students
and a lot of them would say, well, I'm I'm with people all
(10:41):
day, but I don't think anybodyreally knows me. It's like I don't
I don't feel connected to anyone.And so anyway, he and and well
the Surgeon General created this program tomake people aware as much as we can
(11:03):
about how to deal with that andwhat sorts of things could be helpful.
So mm hmm, that's amazing.I mean, it's so great that that
is, you know, top ofmind for the Surgeon in General, who
is in many ways determining our healthpolicy. So that's that's very exactly.
(11:24):
Yeah. Okay, so let's goback to empathy. So you mentioned empathy
includes an action step or or anattribute of action, which is a little
bit different perhaps than compassion. Sois there something like people are people naturally
do they naturally feel empathy towards another? Or is this something that can be
developed? Is it like a skillset? Are there personal attributes or attitudes
(11:50):
that need to be in place forsomebody to feel empathy for another. Yeah,
well to some degree, yes,I mean, I think it's a
natural trade that we all can have. But I think too it starts with
the intention of a person to actually, you know, be in relationship with
(12:15):
others, to be helpful or youknow, not just not just a casual
observer, but be there to tryto connect in some way with what the
needs of that person are. Andand a lot of I think the just
just having the intention to do thatis the key thing. And I think
(12:39):
that's one of the advantages we haveas healthcare providers. That's what we're you
know, we're intended to do thatevery day, to be there for people
and to be helpful. And sothat that intent, I think is maybe
a little bit more natural or sortof routine for us as providers, but
(13:03):
it can also happen. You know, a lot of people in your community
and families and all the dis liketo help others. They like to be
there too, you know, sortof really connect with people. So I
think that the intention to do itis the first thing. M h.
(13:24):
Yes. And how about on theother end, Let's say, for example,
that I have the intention of beingyou know, having feeling I have
the intention to be empathetic towards maybeone of my patients' concerns or situations.
(13:45):
Do they need to be receptive inorder to receive my empathy or will it
have an effect on them regardless ofwhether they're aware of it, receptive to
it or not. Yeah, well, I think it's obviously more powerful if
they're open to it and receptive toit. But I think the other thing,
if we do a good job ofthat and we really do try to
(14:11):
connect with where the person is,they realize it's it's not just a casual
interchange of information, that this personthat's talking to me is really cares about
me and wants to know where Iam right now and has some maybe some
(14:33):
really helpful suggestions, you know,for what I could do to improve where
I am. And I think thatit doesn't necessarily always happen right away in
the interchange. I think it's reallyimportant in the caregiving situation to do those
(14:54):
things, but sometimes the people mightrealize it a little bit more after even
they leave the off us, andI think it's still can have an impact
on the on the other person evenat a later time. M h,
Yeah, I think so too.I think that's actually a really good point
that the that that that sense ofbeing of almost being held by another human
(15:18):
being, not actually held, butmetaphorically held with this sense of positive regard
and graciousness and acceptance is something thatcan be felt. But also just that
experience will have amazing unraveling sort ofunfolding effects later. You know, as
(15:41):
we continue to go through we cancome back to it, we can remember
that feeling, We can remember justalmost a feeling of inspiration that came out
of that sense of having somebody holdus with empathy. So I think it
is true that the implications for iton us can be very long term,
which is a really beautiful thing.Is this something that you're very aware of,
(16:03):
Like, are you consciously practicing orincorporating empathy into your medical practice?
Oh, very definitely. And that'sduring my I do the mentorship activities with
some of the active fellows now inthe fellowship, and that's one of the
things I like to really spend alot of time on is reinforcing the importance
(16:26):
of that connectivity in the office becauseor in the interchange, because you know
so many times your patients say,well, I went to the to my
appointment and he never even looked atme, or she didn't touch me,
or you know, in some waythey describe that the provider was more intent
(16:49):
on the medical record and typing instuff into the computer than talking to them.
And so I think that is areal challenge for us now because we
have all those things we have todo from a medical I mean from a
office standpoint, but we don't wantto forget that the reason we're really doing
(17:12):
all that is to connect with theperson and empower them. And that is
hugely important and it's it's just morechallenging nowadays to get it in to a
short time of interaction. Yeah,so what can patients do, Like,
if a patient wants a greater connectionwith their provider, what could they do
(17:36):
to remind their provider, to inspiretheir provider to open up, you know,
the opportunity for a more empathetic exchange. You know, I think just
asking for things from the provider likehow do you think I'm doing or how
(17:59):
do you think I'm you know,making the right choices or you know,
something like a remark like that tothe provider lets them remember re said,
Hey, I need to think aboutwhere this person really is because that's important
to them and so you know,again for the patient, uh two,
(18:25):
make some innuendos like that I thinkcan be helpful. Mm hmm. Okay,
yeah, good. So I wantto transition a little bit and explore
another idea which I've heard you getexcited about, and that's the idea of
synchronicity. And we'll tie this backto empathy in a moment. But first,
what is synchronicity. Yeah, that'sthat's a really fascinating thing. Well,
(18:49):
synchronicity is that basically the idea isa coincidence with meaning. So there
if some thing happens and you weren'texpecting it, but all of a sudden
that whatever that thing is provides youwith some awareness or some information you needed,
(19:12):
or it's it was a coincidence,but it had a very positive effect
on where you, you know,what your needs were right now. And
I don't know, did you wantme to give some examples of that,
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Ithink examples would be great. Okay,
(19:33):
Well there's one that now this wasin my medical practice with because synchronicity is
very important I think or can bevery helpful and useful in medical care.
So this won't take too long.This patient I see with chronic obstructive lung
disease, a really nice guy.I've always enjoyed seeing him, but he
(19:57):
has he smoked for long time.He has advanced chronic lung disease, and
he had just seen his pulmonary doctorand he was a little not depressed,
but just not very positive because hispulmonary doctor had told him, I'm sorry,
there's nothing else you can do.We've done everything we can for you.
(20:19):
You can stay on the home oxygen, but I'm afraid that's it.
So when I was sitting there withhim, I thought about I was aware
of some alternative options. One isfrankincense, which is actually oil of frankincense
(20:41):
and a diffuser which aerosolizes the franknsensewhen you breathe in that compound. It
tends to be anti inflammatory in thelun and it actually I recommended it to
several COVID pneumonipations during the pandemic andthey some of and we're still using it
because he noticed it helped their lungso much. So anyway, I'm sitting
(21:04):
there with this guy and I'm feelingempathetic for him, and I was thinking
to myself, should I tell himabout this thing? It's kind of unusual.
Is he going to think I'm aquack or whatever? So anyway,
I started to tell him about frankencenseand I got two or three or four
sentences into it, and he startedhaving this kind of grin on his face,
(21:30):
and I thought, oh boy,he thinks I'm real quack. And
so so I stopped and said,well, what's your feeling about this?
He said, well, you know, it's interesting. I never heard of
this before two or three days ago, but I saw an article about using
(21:51):
frankincense from my lung problem, andI was going to ask you about it.
What I was afraid to ask youbecause you might think I was a
nuthead. Yeah, So basically thatwas that was an incredible synchronicity. I
mean, he moved forward from that. He really felt like, hey,
(22:11):
there's something I can do, andmy friend doctor is on the same page
with me. So that's That's justone example. And then I have several
times where I think of a patientand I'll hear I'll see something on print
(22:36):
or somewhere and it makes me thinkof somebody in boom. Within twenty four
it's usually within twenty four hours they'rethey're in the office to see me about
something. And that's so there's there'san awareness at different levels. It's not
necessarily our conscious awareness, but whenthose things are active, you really get
(23:00):
a lot of connectivity with other peopleand with the environment other things. So
it can be a very powerful allyto what we're doing. Yeah, you
know, those are such great examples. That happens to me too, and
it's always so interesting. And itdoes, like connecting this back to empathy.
Whenever those synchronistic moments happen, Ifeel like, wow, we're in
(23:25):
some sort of it almost feels likesort of a sacred moment, like something
is guiding this moment between us.So my presence is so there, and
I think the other person's presence isthere, so that the opportunity for more
empathy to be exchanged. I thinkis it's much easier for that to happen.
(23:47):
I don't know if you would agreewith that, Oh, very definitely,
Yeah, I think so, AndI think there is it is it's
a deeper energy. And again,people that have studied this and it's it's
a very fascinating topic and it doesapparently there are a lot of dimensions to
(24:10):
our consciousness and awareness that we're notnecessarily uh consciously aware of, but they're
they're there and if we and andthat's one of the things one of the
questions you had. You wondered,well, how do you how do you
build synchronicity? Well, it's reallyinteresting. All you have to do is
(24:30):
pay attention to it, just watchfor it, and and when you do
that, things start to happen.You know, and there's a whole there's
a whole at Uva near here.You know, doctor Biden is doing a
coincidence project. But the people thatare involved in studying that, you know,
(24:53):
they all do find that the moreyou pay attention to it, the
more it happens and and and biggerand more fascinating ways too, I think,
so you don't have to go toschool. Yeah good. So kind
of similarly, what about empathy?You know, I think today, especially
election year, there's a lot ofpolarization that's happening, and you know,
(25:18):
I think people's feelings of isolation getaccentuated, people's perhaps unwillingness to reach out
and connect with others who on thesurface might you know, speak differently or
espouse different views, that's less.So how do we encourage or reintroduce empathy
in our day to day interactions.Well, unfortunately this is beyond a few
(25:45):
simple remarks. But my one ofmy greatest mentors in that area was a
Marshall Rosenberg who created a what's callednon violent communication, and it's it's a
whole. It's really it's a techniqueof communication, but it's also a philosophy
about having everybody's needs met. Andso, if you like, part of
(26:10):
the problem with politics is that ifyou believe something different than me, you're
out, you know. But that'sthat's kind of contrary to this idea of
non violent communication, because you wanteverybody's needs to be met. And I
don't mean that doesn't mean politics.It just means that some of the basic
(26:33):
needs that everyone has you want towhatever you say or do or think,
you want them to include well beingof others, not just yourself. And
it's training on doing that when we'vegotten a little bit away from that over
the last you know, ten orfifteen years, I guess. But his
(26:56):
technique really teaches us to really thinkabout what the other person's needs are too,
not just what I want or whatmy tendencies are. And it's very
incredible training. It's again it's prettydeep. But if the world operated that
(27:19):
way, we would have a differentworld. Yeah for sure. And you
know, one of a similar styleof communication I think it's actually birthed out
of that non violent communication is traumainformed communication, which is also you know,
again assumes that we're all caring traumaaround. So let's start from an
empathetic place. Really from there conversationwhich may include differences. So yeah,
(27:45):
that's a great awareness. Okay,final thoughts. What would you like to
leave with our listeners on today's show? Wow? Well, you know,
like I said, there's so manythings I feel so grateful for, but
I was just going to mention thesethree resources. One is this is on
YouTube. It's the video of theSurgeon General and if you just if you
(28:10):
just search, we are made toconnect and that'll connect you. That will
connect you onto the the topic atDuke with the Surgeon General and the Duke
faculty and it's about an hour andten minutes or so, but that's superb.
Then on the on the synchronicity ideas, there's a thing called the Coincidence
(28:33):
Project and if you just Google CoincidenceProject, that'll take you to the website
and it it'll it's really very informative, and anyone that is interested in that,
they actually have a cafe every thirdSaturday of the month where it's an
hour where they you're online or youknow, on zoom connection, but you
(28:56):
can talk about synchronicities and all that. But that's that's a very interesting resource.
And then for anyone that really wantedto go for real extra credit,
this the Envy Non Non Violent Communicationm v C is if there's a website
there, it's c NBC dot organd they have correspondence courses and all kinds
(29:22):
of things that again that's a deeper, deeper dive into all of this empathy,
but it's it's basically empathy training,you know. That's one of the
things he he said was that,you know, it's not labeled that,
but that's mainly what it is forfor people to be empathetic with each other.
So yeah, it's yeah, that'sthat. Those are wonderful resources.
(29:45):
Thank you for sharing them, muchappreciated and David, thanks for sharing your
time and your thoughts on this.I think this is a really important topic
and you laid it out very pragmaticallybut also inspirationally. So thank you so
much for joining me tonight. Well, thank you, thank you for asking
(30:06):
me. Yeah, and for ourlisteners who'd like to find you as their
website you can share. I don't, I'm not on social media. Okay,
sorry, fair enough, fair enough. Well this is their one chance
then to hear your wisdom. Andthat wraps up this episode of five to
Thrive Live. We thank our sponsorsand if H, the professional supplement line
(30:30):
bridging the gap between nutraceuticals and evidencebased medicine, cognizance ofticoling to help enhance
memory, focus and attention, immusea post biotic for immune support and doctor
or Hero's Probiotics award winning pre andprobiotic formulas. And thank you listener for
joining us. May you experience joy, laughter and love. It's time to
(30:52):
thrive. Everyone, have a greatnight. Scip baby, good good sing
The state the city is an extragood love life
Any health related information on the followingshow provides general information only. Content presented
on any show by any host orguests should not be substituted for a doctor's
advice. Always consult your physician beforebeginning any new diet, exercise, or
treatment program. Welcome to five toThrive Live, a podcast about thriving for
(00:44):
those who have been affected by cancerand chronic disease, and doctor Lisa Schuller
and I co host with my goodfriend Carolyn Gazella. You can find all
of our past show podcasts on anymajor podcast outlet and also on our website,
which is I thriveplan dot com.I am delighted to have doctor David
Cannon on five to Thrive Live today. Doctor Cannon attended Duke University for his
(01:06):
undergraduate degree in chemistry before going onto get his medical degree also at Duke.
He then went on to complete hispostgraduate training and primary care internal medicine
at the University of Virginia, andfollowing residency training, he completed two years
of active duty in the US Navy. After completing his military service, doctor
Cannon practiced internal medicine and then intwo thousand and five, he completed the
(01:32):
Integrative Medicine fellowship at the University ofArizona, and since that time has shifted
his focus to an integrative style ofpractice. And I've had the pleasure of
working with doctor Cannon in several differentways, and I know he's a very
thoughtful, kind individual. And we'regoing to talk tonight about empathy, and
(01:53):
I think this is a topic thatdoesn't get discussed enough and yet is essential
would argue to healing and to havinga whole life experience. So I'm very
excited to talk about this. Beforewe do talk about this, though,
I want to thank our sponsors.First. We have NFH, an innovative
(02:14):
dietary supplement manufacturer that uses an evidencebased approach to create high quality dietary supplements
for integrative healthcare professionals. So ifyou want the highest level of confidence in
the dietary supplements that you take,ask your integrative provider about NFH products and
you can find out more at NFHdot C. We also thank Emuse,
(02:36):
a unique patented post biotic that givesyour immune system a key advantage. Muse
is found in many immune supporting dietarysupplements, so look for it on the
label. Or go to immusehealth dotcom for more information. Also cognizance of
the cooline which helps the brain tofire on all cylinders and enhance memory,
(02:57):
focus and attention, So look forCognizant on the label or go to Cognizant
dot com for more information. Andas a matter of fact, pro Thriver's
Brain is a product that contains Cognizantas well as some other brain supporting nutrients
and herbs. And you can findpro Thriver's Brain online at Pureformulas dot com.
And finally, doctor or Heroes Probiotics, a best selling probiotic for over
(03:19):
thirty years, contains twelve probiotics strainswhich are shelf stable without refrigeration due to
a unique three year fermentation process,and you can learn more at doctor Orhira
Probiotics dot com. And with that, I welcome David to the show.
Hi David Lease, thank you forinviting me. Absolutely, it really is
something I'm excited to have you talkabout empathy. But before we get into
(03:45):
the topic, we like to introduceour guests to the listeners a little bit,
So tell us a little bit aboutyourself and specifically, why do you
focus on integrative medicine well, youknow, it's really interesting when I years
ago, when I came out oftraining and from some very very reputable,
(04:05):
strong programs, I found myself notprepared in some ways for some of the
problems that my patients had, andI was I could I could treat a
septic leukemic in shock, but Iwasn't so good with things like dizzyness,
(04:25):
indigestion, and so anyway, Igot interested in exploring other options for integrated
medicine or lifestyle supplements, and butI also wanted to stay. I didn't
want to get too far away frommy traditional roots. And I was really
just so grateful to find the programin Arizona because it really did bill all
(04:51):
the things that I wanted. Ithad evidence based products and really strong faculty,
and it really was a wonderful assetto my education to help me provide
a more comprehensive care to my patients. Yeah, that's really wonderful, you
(05:16):
know, desire on your part,and I'm sure I know your patients appreciate
it. So that takes us rightin in fact to our topic tonight,
which is empathy. And you know, empathy really makes more sense in some
ways when we speak about or thinkabout isolation and loneliness, which is something
that many now experience, especially sincethe pandemic. So can you talk a
(05:41):
little bit about isolation. Yeah,you know, I think as a healthcare
provider, that was really a veryhuge issue back in twenty twenty when we
started dealing with a pandemic and people'tor wouldn't come to the office, and
(06:03):
it was a very challenging situation becauseeverybody was kind of isolated from their lives,
so to speak. And so,you know, it was a real
challenge to be able to meet people'sneeds with that disconnectedness. And as we
got better and through the pandemic,and then we started to have people coming
(06:29):
back in, you could just seethe effect on in their face, on
their body, I mean, justhow difficult it had been for them,
and how how grateful they were tobe, you know, reconnecting again.
And so that's really at that pointI I got to be a lot more
(06:51):
aware of this issue of disconnectedness andloneliness. And it turns out it wasn't
just the pandemic. Apparently, It'sbeen a trend that's been developing over time,
and I have been more and moreinterested in learning how to deal with
that and how to help people reconnectwith each other. And I was doing
(07:15):
it mainly in my medical practice,but as we'll talk a little bit about
some of these other issues, I'veseen some good coaching on how to approach
it as a culture and with otherdimensions. So yeah, and you know,
(07:36):
I think in some ways the anecdoteto isolation is connectedness, which you
know, it's easier said than done. I think one way that people can
create connectedness is through empathy. Solet's actually just talk about empathy for a
moment, maybe just define it alittle bit. Ye. Well, I
(07:59):
think empathy is a true, sincereconcern for the other person and where they
are in their life and their situation. But it's a little bit more than
just the awareness like compassion, Likeyou can have compassion for a person and
(08:22):
you're not really necessarily doing anything aboutit. But empathy does put in that
dimension of connection where you really actuallynot only are trying to be aware of
what that person's needs are or wherethey are, but also to let them
know you're you want to connect withthem and be helpful if you can or
(08:46):
whatever. So it's it's there's anaction step. I think to empathy where
and again it's it helps, ithelps more with that connectedness. So connectedness
antidote to isolation. Empathy is kindof a way to maybe create a sense
of connectedness. Let me just goback for a second to isolation. You
(09:09):
mentioned to me in an email thatthere was a recent report by the Surgeon
General kind of on this topic.Can you give us a little, you
know, quick summary of what thatwas about. Yeah, it was really
fascinating. So the Surgeon General actually, well, he has created a program
where he's going around the country andthey have targeted i think twenty five universities
(09:33):
where they're going to talk to thestudent groups and faculty about this isolation and
loneliness that's actually present in our culturefor a lot of young people. And
basically he mentioned, well the firsttheir first stop was at Duke University,
and that's how I got an emailabout that presentation. So I actually watched
(10:00):
it. I didn't know anything ofwhat it was going to be like,
but it was just amazing that thesehigh caliber people that are have so many
things on their plate all the time, they were really talking about some something
very very basic, which is justconnecting with each other and the importance of
(10:20):
relationship and how how that sort ofhas gotten uh more difficult to do maybe
with social media. They mentioned thatthey talked to a lot of college students
and a lot of them would say, well, I'm I'm with people all
(10:41):
day, but I don't think anybodyreally knows me. It's like I don't
I don't feel connected to anyone.And so anyway, he and and well
the Surgeon General created this program tomake people aware as much as we can
(11:03):
about how to deal with that andwhat sorts of things could be helpful.
So mm hmm, that's amazing.I mean, it's so great that that
is, you know, top ofmind for the Surgeon in General, who
is in many ways determining our healthpolicy. So that's that's very exactly.
(11:24):
Yeah. Okay, so let's goback to empathy. So you mentioned empathy
includes an action step or or anattribute of action, which is a little
bit different perhaps than compassion. Sois there something like people are people naturally
do they naturally feel empathy towards another? Or is this something that can be
developed? Is it like a skillset? Are there personal attributes or attitudes
(11:50):
that need to be in place forsomebody to feel empathy for another. Yeah,
well to some degree, yes,I mean, I think it's a
natural trade that we all can have. But I think too it starts with
the intention of a person to actually, you know, be in relationship with
(12:15):
others, to be helpful or youknow, not just not just a casual
observer, but be there to tryto connect in some way with what the
needs of that person are. Andand a lot of I think the just
just having the intention to do thatis the key thing. And I think
(12:39):
that's one of the advantages we haveas healthcare providers. That's what we're you
know, we're intended to do thatevery day, to be there for people
and to be helpful. And sothat that intent, I think is maybe
a little bit more natural or sortof routine for us as providers, but
(13:03):
it can also happen. You know, a lot of people in your community
and families and all the dis liketo help others. They like to be
there too, you know, sortof really connect with people. So I
think that the intention to do itis the first thing. M h.
(13:24):
Yes. And how about on theother end, Let's say, for example,
that I have the intention of beingyou know, having feeling I have
the intention to be empathetic towards maybeone of my patients' concerns or situations.
(13:45):
Do they need to be receptive inorder to receive my empathy or will it
have an effect on them regardless ofwhether they're aware of it, receptive to
it or not. Yeah, well, I think it's obviously more powerful if
they're open to it and receptive toit. But I think the other thing,
if we do a good job ofthat and we really do try to
(14:11):
connect with where the person is,they realize it's it's not just a casual
interchange of information, that this personthat's talking to me is really cares about
me and wants to know where Iam right now and has some maybe some
(14:33):
really helpful suggestions, you know,for what I could do to improve where
I am. And I think thatit doesn't necessarily always happen right away in
the interchange. I think it's reallyimportant in the caregiving situation to do those
(14:54):
things, but sometimes the people mightrealize it a little bit more after even
they leave the off us, andI think it's still can have an impact
on the on the other person evenat a later time. M h,
Yeah, I think so too.I think that's actually a really good point
that the that that that sense ofbeing of almost being held by another human
(15:18):
being, not actually held, butmetaphorically held with this sense of positive regard
and graciousness and acceptance is something thatcan be felt. But also just that
experience will have amazing unraveling sort ofunfolding effects later. You know, as
(15:41):
we continue to go through we cancome back to it, we can remember
that feeling, We can remember justalmost a feeling of inspiration that came out
of that sense of having somebody holdus with empathy. So I think it
is true that the implications for iton us can be very long term,
which is a really beautiful thing.Is this something that you're very aware of,
(16:03):
Like, are you consciously practicing orincorporating empathy into your medical practice?
Oh, very definitely. And that'sduring my I do the mentorship activities with
some of the active fellows now inthe fellowship, and that's one of the
things I like to really spend alot of time on is reinforcing the importance
(16:26):
of that connectivity in the office becauseor in the interchange, because you know
so many times your patients say,well, I went to the to my
appointment and he never even looked atme, or she didn't touch me,
or you know, in some waythey describe that the provider was more intent
(16:49):
on the medical record and typing instuff into the computer than talking to them.
And so I think that is areal challenge for us now because we
have all those things we have todo from a medical I mean from a
office standpoint, but we don't wantto forget that the reason we're really doing
(17:12):
all that is to connect with theperson and empower them. And that is
hugely important and it's it's just morechallenging nowadays to get it in to a
short time of interaction. Yeah,so what can patients do, Like,
if a patient wants a greater connectionwith their provider, what could they do
(17:36):
to remind their provider, to inspiretheir provider to open up, you know,
the opportunity for a more empathetic exchange. You know, I think just
asking for things from the provider likehow do you think I'm doing or how
(17:59):
do you think I'm you know,making the right choices or you know,
something like a remark like that tothe provider lets them remember re said,
Hey, I need to think aboutwhere this person really is because that's important
to them and so you know,again for the patient, uh two,
(18:25):
make some innuendos like that I thinkcan be helpful. Mm hmm. Okay,
yeah, good. So I wantto transition a little bit and explore
another idea which I've heard you getexcited about, and that's the idea of
synchronicity. And we'll tie this backto empathy in a moment. But first,
what is synchronicity. Yeah, that'sthat's a really fascinating thing. Well,
(18:49):
synchronicity is that basically the idea isa coincidence with meaning. So there
if some thing happens and you weren'texpecting it, but all of a sudden
that whatever that thing is provides youwith some awareness or some information you needed,
(19:12):
or it's it was a coincidence,but it had a very positive effect
on where you, you know,what your needs were right now. And
I don't know, did you wantme to give some examples of that,
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Ithink examples would be great. Okay,
(19:33):
Well there's one that now this wasin my medical practice with because synchronicity is
very important I think or can bevery helpful and useful in medical care.
So this won't take too long.This patient I see with chronic obstructive lung
disease, a really nice guy.I've always enjoyed seeing him, but he
(19:57):
has he smoked for long time.He has advanced chronic lung disease, and
he had just seen his pulmonary doctorand he was a little not depressed,
but just not very positive because hispulmonary doctor had told him, I'm sorry,
there's nothing else you can do.We've done everything we can for you.
(20:19):
You can stay on the home oxygen, but I'm afraid that's it.
So when I was sitting there withhim, I thought about I was aware
of some alternative options. One isfrankincense, which is actually oil of frankincense
(20:41):
and a diffuser which aerosolizes the franknsensewhen you breathe in that compound. It
tends to be anti inflammatory in thelun and it actually I recommended it to
several COVID pneumonipations during the pandemic andthey some of and we're still using it
because he noticed it helped their lungso much. So anyway, I'm sitting
(21:04):
there with this guy and I'm feelingempathetic for him, and I was thinking
to myself, should I tell himabout this thing? It's kind of unusual.
Is he going to think I'm aquack or whatever? So anyway,
I started to tell him about frankencenseand I got two or three or four
sentences into it, and he startedhaving this kind of grin on his face,
(21:30):
and I thought, oh boy,he thinks I'm real quack. And
so so I stopped and said,well, what's your feeling about this?
He said, well, you know, it's interesting. I never heard of
this before two or three days ago, but I saw an article about using
(21:51):
frankincense from my lung problem, andI was going to ask you about it.
What I was afraid to ask youbecause you might think I was a
nuthead. Yeah, So basically thatwas that was an incredible synchronicity. I
mean, he moved forward from that. He really felt like, hey,
(22:11):
there's something I can do, andmy friend doctor is on the same page
with me. So that's That's justone example. And then I have several
times where I think of a patientand I'll hear I'll see something on print
(22:36):
or somewhere and it makes me thinkof somebody in boom. Within twenty four
it's usually within twenty four hours they'rethey're in the office to see me about
something. And that's so there's there'san awareness at different levels. It's not
necessarily our conscious awareness, but whenthose things are active, you really get
(23:00):
a lot of connectivity with other peopleand with the environment other things. So
it can be a very powerful allyto what we're doing. Yeah, you
know, those are such great examples. That happens to me too, and
it's always so interesting. And itdoes, like connecting this back to empathy.
Whenever those synchronistic moments happen, Ifeel like, wow, we're in
(23:25):
some sort of it almost feels likesort of a sacred moment, like something
is guiding this moment between us.So my presence is so there, and
I think the other person's presence isthere, so that the opportunity for more
empathy to be exchanged. I thinkis it's much easier for that to happen.
(23:47):
I don't know if you would agreewith that, Oh, very definitely,
Yeah, I think so, AndI think there is it is it's
a deeper energy. And again,people that have studied this and it's it's
a very fascinating topic and it doesapparently there are a lot of dimensions to
(24:10):
our consciousness and awareness that we're notnecessarily uh consciously aware of, but they're
they're there and if we and andthat's one of the things one of the
questions you had. You wondered,well, how do you how do you
build synchronicity? Well, it's reallyinteresting. All you have to do is
(24:30):
pay attention to it, just watchfor it, and and when you do
that, things start to happen.You know, and there's a whole there's
a whole at Uva near here.You know, doctor Biden is doing a
coincidence project. But the people thatare involved in studying that, you know,
(24:53):
they all do find that the moreyou pay attention to it, the
more it happens and and and biggerand more fascinating ways too, I think,
so you don't have to go toschool. Yeah good. So kind
of similarly, what about empathy?You know, I think today, especially
election year, there's a lot ofpolarization that's happening, and you know,
(25:18):
I think people's feelings of isolation getaccentuated, people's perhaps unwillingness to reach out
and connect with others who on thesurface might you know, speak differently or
espouse different views, that's less.So how do we encourage or reintroduce empathy
in our day to day interactions.Well, unfortunately this is beyond a few
(25:45):
simple remarks. But my one ofmy greatest mentors in that area was a
Marshall Rosenberg who created a what's callednon violent communication, and it's it's a
whole. It's really it's a techniqueof communication, but it's also a philosophy
about having everybody's needs met. Andso, if you like, part of
(26:10):
the problem with politics is that ifyou believe something different than me, you're
out, you know. But that'sthat's kind of contrary to this idea of
non violent communication, because you wanteverybody's needs to be met. And I
don't mean that doesn't mean politics.It just means that some of the basic
(26:33):
needs that everyone has you want towhatever you say or do or think,
you want them to include well beingof others, not just yourself. And
it's training on doing that when we'vegotten a little bit away from that over
the last you know, ten orfifteen years, I guess. But his
(26:56):
technique really teaches us to really thinkabout what the other person's needs are too,
not just what I want or whatmy tendencies are. And it's very
incredible training. It's again it's prettydeep. But if the world operated that
(27:19):
way, we would have a differentworld. Yeah for sure. And you
know, one of a similar styleof communication I think it's actually birthed out
of that non violent communication is traumainformed communication, which is also you know,
again assumes that we're all caring traumaaround. So let's start from an
empathetic place. Really from there conversationwhich may include differences. So yeah,
(27:45):
that's a great awareness. Okay,final thoughts. What would you like to
leave with our listeners on today's show? Wow? Well, you know,
like I said, there's so manythings I feel so grateful for, but
I was just going to mention thesethree resources. One is this is on
YouTube. It's the video of theSurgeon General and if you just if you
(28:10):
just search, we are made toconnect and that'll connect you. That will
connect you onto the the topic atDuke with the Surgeon General and the Duke
faculty and it's about an hour andten minutes or so, but that's superb.
Then on the on the synchronicity ideas, there's a thing called the Coincidence
(28:33):
Project and if you just Google CoincidenceProject, that'll take you to the website
and it it'll it's really very informative, and anyone that is interested in that,
they actually have a cafe every thirdSaturday of the month where it's an
hour where they you're online or youknow, on zoom connection, but you
(28:56):
can talk about synchronicities and all that. But that's that's a very interesting resource.
And then for anyone that really wantedto go for real extra credit,
this the Envy Non Non Violent Communicationm v C is if there's a website
there, it's c NBC dot organd they have correspondence courses and all kinds
(29:22):
of things that again that's a deeper, deeper dive into all of this empathy,
but it's it's basically empathy training,you know. That's one of the
things he he said was that,you know, it's not labeled that,
but that's mainly what it is forfor people to be empathetic with each other.
So yeah, it's yeah, that'sthat. Those are wonderful resources.
(29:45):
Thank you for sharing them, muchappreciated and David, thanks for sharing your
time and your thoughts on this.I think this is a really important topic
and you laid it out very pragmaticallybut also inspirationally. So thank you so
much for joining me tonight. Well, thank you, thank you for asking
(30:06):
me. Yeah, and for ourlisteners who'd like to find you as their
website you can share. I don't, I'm not on social media. Okay,
sorry, fair enough, fair enough. Well this is their one chance
then to hear your wisdom. Andthat wraps up this episode of five to
Thrive Live. We thank our sponsorsand if H, the professional supplement line
(30:30):
bridging the gap between nutraceuticals and evidencebased medicine, cognizance ofticoling to help enhance
memory, focus and attention, immusea post biotic for immune support and doctor
or Hero's Probiotics award winning pre andprobiotic formulas. And thank you listener for
joining us. May you experience joy, laughter and love. It's time to
(30:52):
thrive. Everyone, have a greatnight. Scip baby, good good sing
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