December 4, 2024 • 52 mins
Palestinian & Israeli peace activists share their personal stories about realities on the ground & a path toward collective safety and liberation. We invite you to hear their perspectives, vision, & experiences about humanity in times of dehumanization & war, about their hope & their courage to share this hope publicly. They share their personal stories of transformation, lessons of joint peaceful resistance, & the vastly different realities they face in the same land.They are Salt of the Earth.
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It's Your Voice is broadcast live Wednesdays at 8PM ET Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). It's Your Voice is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
It's Your Voice Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not
those of W four c Y Radio. It's employees are affiliates.
We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No
liability explicitor implied shall be extended to W four c
Y Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or
comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you
(00:20):
for choosing W four c Y Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Let's Speak show in Lot, Let's breech in Lot, let'spreach
in Lot's Lot Lot.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Hello, and welcome to It's Your Voice, this show that
hosts enriching conversations in diversity. My name is Bihia Yaxon.
I'm a diversity educator and a corelim A coach, which
means I train people and identifying patterns of bias, learning
how to step out of them and cultivate new patterns
(01:17):
of attitudes and behaviors that are far more inclusive and
create a greater sense of belonging for anyone around. If
you want to check out some of my sample courses,
you can go to my website, which is Know what
you Want Coaching dot orpress dot com. We have an
amazing episode tonight, and I'm really grateful for my two guests,
(01:40):
and I think I'm going to read their bios because
I don't want you to. I don't want to miss
a word. What they've done already is amazing, and I
think if our engineer can bring them out, people can
see who I'm talking about. Thank you so much, welcome,
so good to see you, and I I'll read your
(02:01):
bios and thank you for waiting while to do this.
So we're talking to asama Iluwat and Wrotem Levin and
the title of this episode is Collective Liberation for Israel
and Palestine, so incredibly significant, important and needed. The show
(02:22):
description is Palestinian and Israeli peace activists share their personal
stories about realities on the ground and a path toward
collective safety and liberation. We invite you to hear their perspectives,
vision and experiences about humanity in times of dehumanization and war,
and about their hope and the courage to share this
(02:45):
hope publicly. They will share their personal stories of transformation,
lessons of joint peaceful resistance and the vastly different realities
they face in the same land. Osama has been dedicated
a dedicated peace activist for over fifteen years, working with
organizations across the field. He's a co founder of Salt
(03:07):
of the Earth and speaks regularly for organizations and universities
all around the world. When Osama is not working for
peace internationally, he supports his community in Jericho and others
in the West Bank to stay on their land and
rebuild homes, parks and schools. He also offers political educational
(03:27):
tours in the West Bank. Osama taught himself Hebrew in
order to connect on the land and regularly participate and
trauma healing work and workshops. He believes deeply in the
importance of personal, social, and political healing between Palestinians and
Israelis Rotum Levin was born and raised in Israel. After
(03:50):
his military service, he participated in a transformational intensive dialogue
program in Germany where he got to know Palestinians on
a personal and intimate level. Afterwards, he started organizing similar
programs in Jordan, dedicated himself to learning Arabic and began
building solidarity relationships with Palestinians He moved to bait Jala,
(04:13):
a Palestinian village in the West Bank, in twenty twenty
to get to know his neighbor's reality. When Rotem is
not giving conferences for peace internationally, he invests most of
his time creating healing spaces for Israelis and Palestinians on
the land. Thank you both so much for everything that
you're doing to benefit the whole world. And I think
(04:37):
you might be exhausted because you have a very busy schedule.
You've been traveling a lot and providing a lot of
people this amazing, powerful education through your stories. I went
to ask, I want, want to ask how you are
and then just give you the floor because you will
(04:59):
use every mo in it far better than I could
be future. Get sure how you are.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Thank you and so for me, I am good. I
mean physically, I'm good, emotionally we all know where we
are and what's going on. But I feel also I
am I can't complain because I'm safe, I am pad,
i am warm. I'm not like the children of Gazza
(05:31):
or the Prestinian prisoners who don't have food, who don't
have blankets, who are suffering from diseases. Both ways in
West Bank, in is religious and in Gaza. So yeah,
and I can't be tired. I don't allow myself to
(05:51):
be tired. And I want to thank you for having us,
because for me, it's it's a duty to do what
I'm doing while our people are killing each other. It's
a duty to fight for freedom and justice before beast.
(06:12):
And yeah, and now we are in the United States.
We just give talk in Brinceton University and we came
here to have this podcast with you. So I want
to thank you. And when I will come you and
all the people who are listening to us, and I
would love to share a little bit about my background
(06:34):
and how I came here. So first of all, I
want to say that we are not here to convince
people who's the victim and who's not victim, and who's
more human than the daughter. We are not here to
win conversations. We are not here to victimize tide and
(06:54):
forget that the other side is a human being. We
are here to talk about realities, to talk about in
just and to talk about international corrupted community that they
are not standing for their beliefs. I'm not a standing
for the international law and not standing for human rights
(07:16):
and that's what allow our situation to be the way
it is.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Thank you bout them. How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And yeah, I mean it.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
Exhausted. We do it since fourteen months, almost speaking every day.
We just finished another talk in Princeton University and and yeah,
I feel also like that I cannot stop what I'm
doing because when people are being massacred in our land
(07:55):
every day and people don't have food, if I have
the privilege to speak and and the ability to speak
to people and to bring the voice of the voiceless,
I feel like it's a duty. And yeah, it's not easy.
It's not easy because we keep following the reality and
(08:16):
we keep seeing every day how the situation is keep
escalating and millions of people don't have food, and it
feels real, like to realize that we're in twenty twenty
four people don't have food and it's all human made,
it's all politics. So it makes me very sad that
(08:38):
we reach this place and that we couldn't prevent it.
And I think that it's never too late. It's never
too late, because it can get much worse. And I
think at some point that we will not wake up
and change the direction it will reach everyone, to reach
are of us, because when there is in just this summer,
(08:59):
it means it endangers justice everywhere. And if will reach
also us blend the Turtle Island whatever people want to
call this place, I think, Yeah, it's time to wake
up and to realize what is happening. And again we're
doing it not to convince you that one side is
(09:23):
more human and the other. There are humans on both sides,
Both are traumatized, both believe that they fight for their existence,
both believe they are victims. And this is the problem,
and we need to educate ourselves and we need to
change the system for the sake of all of us,
because this system endangers all of us from the river
(09:44):
to the sea. No one is going to be safe
as long as this this system exists.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah, thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Rodium.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Do you want to start some of your background and
then turn it over when it's time to turn it
over to Osama.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
So, yeah, I was born and raised in Israel as
a Zionist, like basically everyone, I believe that Zionism is
my safety, that you have a Jewish and democratic state.
And yeah, I didn't know anything about Palestinians I grew
(10:28):
up in a Jewish bibbel. I didn't know Arabic because
they don't teach us Arabic in Israeli schools. And the
time of the Second Intifada, I was ten years old,
so I started to hear about suicide attacks and buses
are being exploded every week, and I was scared. I
was terrified because with all these Palestinians, I cannot see
(10:49):
them around me. Like in my school, there were only
Jews in my village, only Jews. So the segregation creates this.
It's let's say, it's much easier to feed you with
narratives or film on gearing when you don't know the
other side. And yeah, I was raised in a military
(11:10):
aid society. It means that everyone goes to serving the army.
This is the normal thing to do. So for me
growing up in the society, I realized that when I
will be eighteen years old, I will go and serve
in the army because everyone used to do it, all
my teachers, all my family, all my village. So the army,
it was maybe like your college. You know, you don't
(11:33):
question it. Once you finish high school, you go to college.
And yeah, I started to realize that again because the
military is such a place, such a central role in
my society. Later in life, if I go and serve
in the best units, it will be easier for me.
It will help me to find the best jobs, maybe
to be accepted to the best universities. For instance, I
(11:55):
studied medicine. First question to medical school, where did you
serve in the army? And when I said the name
of the unit, it was one of the best units.
The interviewer had a huge smile on his face and
I knew I passed the exam at the interview and yeah,
in doing the army service, I had one time one
(12:18):
night when my team was taken to the West Bank.
It was the first time I go to the West Bank,
to the other side of the wall, and there I
was asked to throw a shock of grenade on one
of the ards, and yeah, I did it because this
is what I was trying to do, to follow orders
the best way we can. And on the way back
to the base, suddenly one of the soldiers, one of
(12:42):
my friends, came to me and told me, you know,
I think we shouldn't do such things. And I remember
I wasn't ready to hear it. I wasn't prepared and
I felt somehow this connection in this moment, and I
was confused, and I felt, yeah, what are we doing
here actually? And the commander came here just talking about it,
(13:04):
and he told me you're a soldier. You do what
you oughtel to do, and this is the end of
the conversation. I don't want to hear about it anymore.
And for me, I think this night, I cannot forget it.
And it created the first crack in my understanding that
there is here something bigger than me, that I'm part
of it. But I don't feel really aligned, and I
(13:26):
didn't really know the whole picture, and I really didn't
understand what occupation means. But I felt that I did
something that I don't really I can't stand or I
can support. And yeah, luckily were these years were relatively quiet,
so I didn't have to fight or to shoot anyone
doing my army service, my three years of mandatory service,
(13:48):
and I was released physically and mentally healthy. And yeah, later,
like later, I found myself in Germany participating in one
of these dialog programs with Palestinians from the West Bank.
And it was at the age of twenty three. It
(14:09):
was the first time I met Palestinians from the West Bank,
and it was the first time I hear about the
Palestinian narrative. And I learned about the parallel universe that
exists only one hour drive for my home on the
other side of the world. But I've never imagined it exists,
because again I was told always by my society, it's
very dangerous there. You shouldn't cross the world. They might
(14:30):
teart you if doing on that you're in Israel. And
then I learned about like things that I've never heard before,
about Nacoba, about refugee kms, about massive ethnic cleansing that
enabled the establishment of the Jewish state, about hundreds of
villages that were destroyed, about two thirds of Palestinian population
(14:53):
were expelled. And for me it I was shocked because
how come I did hear about it? Why did I
have to go all the way to Germany to learn
about the history of my homeland. And yeah, later I
learned that like in Israel, there is a system to
prevent us, the Israelis, from actually realizing what is happening.
So in the Israeli scholar system, you're not allowed to
(15:16):
mention the n Acuba and the media. Of course, it's completely
complicity with all this narrative. And in theaters you're not
allowed to mention Akuba in et cetera. Like you have
many many ways and practices that Israel uses to prevent
Israelis from realizing what is happening. And that means catastrophe.
(15:43):
Someone doesn't know in Arabic. And this is the term
Palestinians used to describe what happened to them in forty
eight when the Jewish state was established. Our independence is
their catastrophe, and yeah, it was. It was a lot.
And I started. I felt like the Babbel exploded, and
I started to get to no more Palestinians and to
(16:05):
learn Arabic and to have solidarity relationships. And at some
point I moved to the westmank to live with my
new friends, and there I started to understand what it
means actually to live under military occupation, what it means
this world, because for me, this wall it was the
security wall. Suddenly this one is the apartheid world. It
(16:26):
is there to confiscate their lens, it is there to
prevent freedom of movement, and we can I am allowed
to go to the beach in Tel Aviv. Because I'm Jewish,
i can take my car across the checkpoint and I'm
at the beach. Palestinian friends in the West Bank they
cannot do it. So we have a whole generation of
twenty thirty years old like adults, they have never seen
(16:47):
the beach just because they are not Jews.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Wow. So this is.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Un believable and unbearable. And this is the reason why
we have violence. The violence they are keep telling us.
The violence is because they hate us and they don't
want us here. No, we cannot. Any human being will
resist under these circumstances. No one will accept this. This
like discrimination. No one will accept to be second classitism.
(17:17):
If he was born in thirty eight and if he
was born in the Western or Gazda is dead or
animal or stateless. So we have to understand that the
system is the problem. The system is the source of
the violence.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
And yeah, we.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
Want to live in peace. We need to live in peace,
but we have to create equality and justice. We cannot
live in peace under such circumstances. And yeah, we are
here to trying to tell them world that we can
live in peace as well as in Palestinians. This is
not the problem. The problem is the system. We have
to change the system. Then we can live in peace
and hopefully in safety and security and everything.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Yeah wow, thank you so much, just filling in details
so so many people have never ever heard. It's just
very enlightening. And it's just the compassion that you both are.
You sharing the fact that you learned Arabic and Osama
learned Hebrewted just to be able to communicate with people
(18:23):
you weren't even allowed to know. It's very powerful.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Aw Summer, are you having to step in.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Here, Thank you so much. So. Yeah. And I grew
up on the same land, different reality, different story, different life,
different clothes. Even you know, we live on the same land.
We receive rights according to our faith if you are
Jewish or full citizen with all the rights, if you
(18:57):
are Balstinian. You have listened. So yeah. So the catastrophe
dan Akba and forty eighth story was the first stories
of my grandmother, my great grandmother. I heard since I
was kids about how when the Jewish people came to
the land, they destroyed their village and they killed them,
(19:18):
and they massacred them, and they buried them and they
raped them and they had leaves to flee to East Jerusalem,
and sixty seven were from East Jerusalem. They ran to Jordan,
and none of them with my whole family. The big
family was a lot to come back because that was
the second transfer for the Prastinians, and the transfer is
(19:42):
still happening until today, different levels, different ways. And my family,
my grandfather was brave enough to sneak back to the land.
He was the only one from his whole family who
sneaked back to the land, to Jerusalem. And we were
expelled from Jerusalem again in the eighties because there's a
(20:04):
lot of flaws for Arabs. Only if Arabs don't live
like we have, like a green card in Jerusalem, we
don't have citizenship, so we are residents. Even though I
know seven grandfathers, greater grandfathers were born in Jerusalem, I'm
still resident, not citizens of my own country. And every American, Russian, Theobian, Moroccian,
(20:28):
I don't know Jew in the world, they have more
rights on my land than me. Yeah, so that's all
what I knew about Judaism. I used to see full
armed soldiers in front of my school. Soldiers used to
shoot at our school, tear girls, we run terrified as children.
(20:48):
I was traumatized most of my life from these people.
And the only thing I knew about them that they
are Jews and they are cognizers, and they are not
from the land and they don't belong here. And they
came to control my life. And they were proving this
every day that they don't care about me, they care
(21:09):
about themselves. And yeah. And at the age of fourteen,
when I grew up in a place where there is
shooting and killing and fears and cubation and soldiers and
army and military rules every day, I start to resist
(21:29):
like everyone else. And I started to write gravity on
the wolves, and I started to raise the Barrastinian flags
and yeah, and I was arrested for that. Because we
Balastinians don't have any rights. We live under military rules.
The army can arrest us for no reason. There is
a law in Israel called administrative detention that they can
(21:52):
arrest any Balastinian, kidnap any Palestinian, keep them in jail
from one day up to three years without trial, without
going to court. And if we go to court, well,
I don't go to the court the same court like
Rotam or like the settler who lives five minutes away
from me. I go to military court where the army
(22:13):
is the judge, and they are the count they are
the police, and they are the judge, and they are
the civil there's not civil services for me. And yeah,
to be honest, I wasn't resisting as a kid because
I want to liberate Palastine and kick the Jewish people out.
I was resisting out of fears, out of trauma of
(22:34):
this soldier who used to beat my teacher, who killed
my friends, who arrested my father, who scared my sisters,
who diminished the house of my neighbor. That's all I
knew about them. Yeah, and then I started to hear
about this agreement, about Oslo agreement, and I felt so
happy that we can reach this piece and we're going
(22:55):
to have kind of safety. Because as a kid, as
a teenager, I was not allowed to leave the house
after sunset. I did not feel saved in my house.
I did not feel save in my school. They used
to enter our schools and be our teachers. And after
a few years of of OSLO, I started to realize
(23:19):
that this piece is not really working. You know, they
promised us to give US twenty two persons of our homeland.
And every day they are building settlements, they are destroying
our homes, building illegal settlements, controlling our life, controlling our income,
controlling our economy, controlling our borders. And this is against
(23:42):
the international law, and this is against the disagreements, but
all the democratic countries in the world are supporting them
no matter what. And I felt like this is hypocracy
and this is not right, and I wanted to resist
again and again, and I kept resisting because I felt
life doesn't mean anything when you don't have rights, when
(24:05):
you don't have any kind of hope for the future,
when you don't have job, when you don't have playgrounds,
when you don't have theater, when you don't have like
whatever stage to sing or to dance or to do
anything in your life. You have only soldiers and army
(24:26):
and fears and killing and death. Yeah. So I was
like doing all what you imagine until I get arrested
again and yeah, and they I was very lucky that
with also agreement, I was released at the beginning before
(24:47):
I joined them, and that's why I joined them. And
then I felt like this is not working. The only
way is to fight the only way to fight against
this occupation is to fight them, to hurt them the
same way they hurt you. And in twenty ten, I
ended up in a place where I met a group
(25:08):
of Israeli Jewish people by chance. And I was so
mad that I ended up there, because, you know, as
a Palastinian who believe that I'm the only victim in
the world, and I have the old rights and I
have the right to resist, and the whole world against me,
I felt like why I would listen to these people.
They even killed their own prime minister because he signed
(25:29):
peace agreement. And I ended up listening and I found
out that, you know, I don't know everything, and maybe
there is something I need to learn in this life,
even though I believe in the smartest one, and my
beliefs are none broken, No can, no one can change it,
(25:51):
you know. And I started to hear Israelis talking about catastrophe,
talking about the Nakba, talking about acknowledgment of what they
have done, talking about occubation as an occubation, talking about
fighting this system that support or serve one people and
(26:13):
don't support the other. And they are willing to fight
with me and to stand with me and to danger
their jobs and their work and their future to support me.
And yeah, and you started to think, in order to
break the system, I can't keep using their own tools
(26:34):
they want me to hit because hating each other is
the best way to serve the system. And you can't
change system by using their own tools, hate and separation
and being the only right one and being the victim.
That's what they want me to be. And I decided
(26:55):
maybe to break the system, to work against the system.
Them wants me to be enemy, would want them. I
want to be friends. They want us to be separated.
We decided to be united. They wanted us to fight
each other to keep the occupation. We are fighting together
(27:16):
to end the occupation. And I created a group called
Visit Palestine to bring Israelis and Palastinians to meet each
other and to see each other and to because when
people meet, they recognize each other humanity. They stop justifying
the blood of each other. They stopped dehumanizing each other
(27:36):
and calling each other animals and names and y end
that changed my life. And I brought a lot of
Israelis to explain to them that guys, we Balatinians don't
hate Jews. We lived with Jews most of our life.
We are fighting against tystem that discriminate, using that gives
(28:01):
one side all the rights and don't give the other side.
And this system should break. And yeah, and to explain
to them what it means to be under military rules,
what it means that you don't have rights, what it
means that you don't have running water in your house,
that your city is closed by by checkpoints, that all
we can enter and kidnap and kill every day, and
(28:24):
there is no accountability for that. No one's saying. And
if I raise my voice, I'm a terrorist. And if
I fight violently, I'm a terrorist. And if I fight
none violently, I'm anti Stamite. And this is not right.
I have the right to fight like everyone else in
(28:44):
the world because this when people are accupied, resistance is justified.
But fighting violence with violence was for me just be
eating this circle of violence. So I decided to keep fighting.
And that's why I don't call myself beast activists. I
(29:06):
call myself this peaceful freedom fighter. I work for freedom,
for justice, for equality. Yeah, and I believe this is
the way. I believe. Keep dreaming, keep talking about Ballastinians
will be expelled from the land and it will be
only Jewish country. This will never happen. And keep dreaming
(29:29):
about Jews will leave the land and we will have
blast time back. This will never happen. Future is more
important than the past. Yeah, keep stucking there in the past,
in the circle of the chicken and the egg. Is
good to acknowledge things, but it's not good to stuck there.
(29:50):
And it's not good to keep ignoring the rights and
the existence of each other and the realities of each other.
And yeah, and I decided to change my way in
fighting in a way that can guarantee the freedom and
the security of the Palastinians and the freedom and the
(30:10):
security of the Israelis not because I am because I
am more human than anyone. Because that's what that's what
can happen in the end. That's what happened in South Africa,
that what happened in Australia, that what happened in America,
that what happened in Canada. Even if I want to
call them colonizers, cognizers don't leave. Unfortunately. You need to
(30:36):
find a way to reach rights and to change the
system from within. When you have all the rights, you
can like what happened in South Africa. It's a big
example for changing the systems from within, from inside. And yeah,
and that's where we are and that's why we are
here to kill the Americans, to kill the Balastinians, to
(30:58):
tell the Israelis, Palastine brow everyone, you are right, you
both are right, and you both are wrong, and between life,
I'm wrong. There is a big field meet us there. Wow. Yeah.
And to say to the word as a Balastinian, I
(31:20):
want my children to be dancers. I want my children
to be lawyers. I want them to be architects, I
want them to be singers, I want them to be players.
So please don't keep supporting occupation and make our kids
fighters and then call them theists.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
M Yeah, thank you. So deep and so moving and
just sudding, so much clarity, incredible, It's just it's just
(32:03):
incredible modeling and something we used to see too little
of in the world. So far that with your your courage,
your combined courage and your combined commitment, I think is
just really inspiring a lot of people, and I do
believe it's going to grow. I want to ask about
(32:25):
the I think you said there's a field between right
and wrong, Like, yes, we're right and we wrong. Guess
the other side is right and wrong. But there's a
field in the middle. Is that? What is that? What
you said? I just I think it just was really
helpful to talk about how you two found the field,
(32:48):
like and how you two found each other. And because
that's enormous. If you two hadn't done that, if you
both hadn't worked on healing from your own trauma, if
you hadn't both worked on accountability, if you hadn't both
been willing to be vulnerable and examined and be honest
and speak the truth, which takes a tremendous amount of courage,
(33:13):
the talks and the education you're giving wouldn't be happening.
And so just can you tell us more partly to
inspire and also to educate us, Like like what else
can I do? What else can any listeners or viewers
do that we're not doing that. You guys have just
created a new mold or use an old good one
(33:35):
that's still way underutilized.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
And yeah, it was a long journey and women seven
years ago in the summer and when we started giving
similar docs to Israeli teenagers mostly and also international groups
and Parestinian groups, and yeah, we became good friends and
(34:02):
and yeah, there were many challenges along the way, of course,
a lot of triggers, but we were consistent and we
knew that the friendship is above and the most important thing.
And and yeah, we walk on it every day. It's
(34:23):
not like that, it's you know, done, and and that's it.
Every day you have new challenges, every day, you have conflicts.
But but we are getting much better and we know
each other so well now and and yeah, it's about
two exactly. Maybe there is right in both sides, and
(34:47):
maybe we sometimes have to listen, you know, and and
to realize that what the other side feels is not
what I feel, and what it means to someone else,
it doesn't mean the same to me. So we experience
different things simultaneously, and we have to understand that, like
(35:11):
sometimes most of us are the victims, and sometimes there
is pain on both sides and we have to somehow
take responsibility and see it and talk and listen and
to see how we move forward together. And yeah, it's
a lot of work, but this is the only way.
There is no other way. We have to create the alternative.
We have to build the alternative if we'll just keep
(35:34):
fighting the exist without actually working on the relationship and
on what we envision for this place, it will not
happen if we keep fighting the system and just fighting
the system without working on what we want to do together,
how we can be together on that and how we
can share them. And I think it's only partial. So, yeah,
(35:58):
we are here to say we have to fight the system.
We have to build a new system, and we have
to create bridges. We have to find ways to be
together and to recognize each other. And yeah, I hope
we inspire people, and we need your help. We need
everyone's help, especially in the US, because without the support
of the US, this horrific situation will not continue one day.
(36:22):
Even there are those and the weapons, there are those
of VETO in the UN resolutions. So we need every
American to understand that you are also complicit in this situation.
And we need to unite and build the movement and
to show them what we want them to do, because
we are those who elect them. They work for us,
(36:44):
and sometimes they forget it.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
Yes, that's so many great points you just made.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, and I want to say a wise person said
yesterday I was smart, and I wanted to change the world.
And today I became wise, and I decided to change myself.
And I think that's where the changes start, because we decided,
(37:19):
if we don't live in bees, we should allow beast
to live in us. We should understand that we both
are human beings. Wroughte him. It's not as fault if
his grandfather was colonizer, or he came back to his land,
or hecubide me or whatever. And it's not my fault
(37:40):
that he has the Holocaust. But if we keep fighting
over these things again and over again, we're just feeding
this circle of violence. And when you succeed to leave
the storm behind you, you will not even remember those
(38:00):
who hurt you. You will not even remember those who
want to hurt you. But karma will remember and will
never forget. And I believe there is reality and there's
a dream. And for me, my dream is to see
(38:23):
everyone living on the land equal. The reality is difficult today,
but the dream is to see everyone living on the
land equal, where all of us have the same rights,
have the same freedom of movement, speaking the same language,
(38:43):
living at the same cities, using the same public transportation,
studying in the same schools. That's how we break the system.
That's how we make change by fighting together, not by
fighting each other. And yeah, I believe this is the way,
and believe this is our hope, and I believe you
(39:04):
know it's just keep fighting to be right will not
take you anywhere. For me, I don't want to be right.
I want to be happy. I want to be saved,
I want to be free.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
Oh, these words are so profound. I wanted to make
sure we I read a question that a listener asked,
and then we'll have time for for you. I want
to just kind of recapture some of the things like
each of you said, and then make sure you each
(39:45):
have a closing thought. We still have eight or nine minutes.
So we have two questions. One is if you're willing
to answer these questions. One is from Lenny asking do
your families get along and do things together? To answer
that question?
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah, so for me, my family always believed in beasts.
But they don't think this is helpful because they have
seen all the international laws are broken front of their eyes.
(40:29):
The countries who are lecturing us for human rights and
children rights and women rights and animals rights and gaze
rights and all these rights are sending weapons to subbort
genocide and to support death, and to subbort massacres, and
(40:51):
not to support the humanity. So people are disappointed. Even
we accepted twenty two percent of our homeland and the
world is still dark. Organize US United States, who offered
us the two state solutions. They keep call me stateless.
Until today Germany call me stateless. All these countries they
(41:11):
still they don't see in me human being enough to
be recognized. Yeah, so of course the family are disappointed.
I have a three interviews in jail administrative detention since
seventh of October. They don't have food, they don't have blankets,
they don't they have diseases. They all have scabus and
their skin. There are eight thousand Parastinian prisoners in jail.
(41:35):
The world is not aware about them, not talking about them.
So of course they are disappointed. But they believe this
is the way when they're justice, This is the way
when the international community really stand and support peace. This
is the way when both sides need peace and when
(41:56):
the international law stop everyone against peace. But now they
believe it's a mass, it's no man's land, and peace
is impossible. But they still believe I am doing what's
right for me and for my children and for my family.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
Thank you so much, rot To you want to answer
that question.
Speaker 4 (42:24):
Yeah, I think my family they want peace, but it's
difficult for them to imagine something beyond the current system
or let's say, stay to where everyone is equal when
there is no Jewish majority. It's difficult for them to
(42:47):
imagine this scenario. I was trying to to like introduce
them to my palsy and friends, and they even want
skin with me to Jericho, to me to Salmon and
the show them the old area and yeah, it's it's
a long process because for me, I dived into the reality.
(43:09):
I learned the language I lived with them and from
my parents. They came a few times, so they're still
it still feels very different for them, and I think
what helped me, Yeah, the language, the relationships. For now,
I don't see difference, you know, I see Palestinians as
Israel is. For me, it's the same. But for many
(43:32):
people who live in the bubbles, it's difficult to imagine
a different reality when this is everything that you know, right,
So so for my parents is still challenging, and especially
seventh of October was very difficult on them, and and yeah,
(43:53):
it's it's a lot of work and I'm trying to
explain to them. But yeah, for razrael Is also when
you are being fed by Israeli media and you keep
hearing about the seven of October until this day. Actually,
the Israeli media keep pushing stories from the seven of
(44:13):
October without showing israel Is what is actually happening in Gaza,
which is complete distraction, right, complete massive ethnic cleansing, starvation,
and they don't see it. They don't see it every
day like the rest of humanity. So there is a
(44:33):
huge bubble. And yeah, we do our our best to
somehow build bridges and.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
To oh gosh, thank you so much. I'll just read
out out Massy's question. Thank you, Lenny, thank you Massy,
and then I'll just try to recapture some of the incredible,
profound ideas that you're stating, both of you, and then
(45:05):
I'll hand it over to you all again. Anyway, Macy's
question was do you think we can ever reach peace
in the world? And anyway, I just feel like I
want to emphasize how you're both saying, you know, the
change has to start with me. We have to do
(45:26):
our work. And then Osama said, and then Rhotom you
said consistently, and you have to hold friendship and peace
and justice above anything else, and that you're both asking for.
There is no peace without justice, and asking for equality
for all human beings with the same rights, the same access,
the same tragradation, no second class citizen, no apartheid, apartheid treatment,
(45:52):
and for the international cuman. So there's the work we
need to do in ourselves, and we need to be
educated enough to listen into international laws and object when
they are being violated, and use our voices to add
to your voices. And we have three minutes left and
I just want to hand it over and well, I
(46:16):
guess we'll go back to Osama and then back to
Rhodem for your closing thought.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Thank you. So if we can reach bees, I will
say yes and reaching beast to finding bees inside you
and for us as Balestinian's, hope is not even an option.
Hope is a mast and we can't live without hope.
(46:43):
And the minute you start to lose hope, look at
the Balestinian mother in Gaza who lost her husband and
her child, and she's still collecting wood to make food
for her child who's still alive and injured, without hand
and without leg. Where does she bring the hope from?
(47:06):
Ask the doctors who don't have hospitals, who don't have equipment,
who don't have medicines, and they keep taking care of
thousands of injured people where the American bombs are falling
two thousand tons that their heads. Where they bring hope from.
(47:26):
So for us to lose hope, it's big shame if
they can keep the hope. Hope is privilege is a
choice for the privileged people. But we Barthinians don't have
the privilege to lose hope. The other thing I want
to say, and this will be the last thing I
(47:46):
want to tell everyone Israelis and Brastinians and the international
community and everyone, there is enough place on the land
for all of us. We are fighting over, but there
is enough place and this space on the land for
all of us. What's needed today is to expand our
(48:09):
hearts and to have enough spaces and our hearts for
each other, and that would make sure it's a big
change on our situation. Thank you so much, And I
want to invite everyone Israelis and Balastinian's boy is raely
Bron Balastine. To meet, to meet each other and our
end by Mahammud Derwish is a Balastinian poet. Before he
(48:33):
was expelled from Balastine in the seventies for his revolutionary poems,
he was in love with a Jewish girl and when
he was in Lebanon, she sent him a letter asking
when we are going to meet? He said, after a
year and the war. She asked, when will the war end?
(48:57):
He said, the time we meet, to recognize the pin
of each other, recognized the humanity of each other, recognized
the rights of each other. Don't add separation to our separation.
This will not end U. Thank you, thank you?
Speaker 3 (49:17):
And Rodin do you want to take the last bit?
And I forgot. People can donate, people can find your
beautiful website, Soart of the Earth. I'm sure funning with
help with your travels and getting more and more exposure
for more and more people.
Speaker 4 (49:34):
Yes, I just want to say that we're fighting for
all the people, for all humanity, actually, because we believe
that this conflict is not just about Israelis and Palestinians.
It's about fighting a huge military industrial conflicts that make
millions of dollars a week and keep fighting and killing
each other. So I'm here to call everyone. This is
(49:56):
about humanity, this conflict, and it's about changing the whole system,
because if we will keep following these criminals, it will
reach everywhere. It will reach everywhere, and it's time to
understand that military cannot solve conflicts. Military is not the way.
(50:16):
We need to find ways to sit and talk and
recognize each other's humanity and each other's trauma and each
other's fears, and to change this military complex because it
will not end in Palestine. It will keep going from
place to place to place, and we need to make
it illegal, actually this industry, and to start to find
(50:39):
ways how to deal with conflict. You know, but the
militaryism is endangering all of us. And yeah, we need dreamers.
We need people who know it. All of us know
it in the heart, but we are scared to speak up.
So we need dreamers and believers and people who know
that this is the right way and to find the
courage to speak cap. I know it might be scary,
(51:02):
you might lose some privileges, but if we will keep
swimming and following the stream, and we will not create
the change.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
Yeah, thank you both so much. I'm sorry we were
out of time. We would love to have you back.
We'll find another time. Thank you, and listeners and viewers.
Thank you our engineer, thank your producer. Tune in next
Wednesday APM and next Wednesday ap Eastern time and maybe
all have enriching conversations and diversity. Thank you both so much.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Thank you for the listeners. Don't give up on us,
don't forget us, hope. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (51:40):
Lot speech.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Speech in lots speech and lot love speech. Utic gallet switch,
A large gallet switch, all the high
The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are
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(00:20):
for choosing W four c Y Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Let's Speak show in Lot, Let's breech in Lot, let'spreach
in Lot's Lot Lot.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Hello, and welcome to It's Your Voice, this show that
hosts enriching conversations in diversity. My name is Bihia Yaxon.
I'm a diversity educator and a corelim A coach, which
means I train people and identifying patterns of bias, learning
how to step out of them and cultivate new patterns
(01:17):
of attitudes and behaviors that are far more inclusive and
create a greater sense of belonging for anyone around. If
you want to check out some of my sample courses,
you can go to my website, which is Know what
you Want Coaching dot orpress dot com. We have an
amazing episode tonight, and I'm really grateful for my two guests,
(01:40):
and I think I'm going to read their bios because
I don't want you to. I don't want to miss
a word. What they've done already is amazing, and I
think if our engineer can bring them out, people can
see who I'm talking about. Thank you so much, welcome,
so good to see you, and I I'll read your
(02:01):
bios and thank you for waiting while to do this.
So we're talking to asama Iluwat and Wrotem Levin and
the title of this episode is Collective Liberation for Israel
and Palestine, so incredibly significant, important and needed. The show
(02:22):
description is Palestinian and Israeli peace activists share their personal
stories about realities on the ground and a path toward
collective safety and liberation. We invite you to hear their perspectives,
vision and experiences about humanity in times of dehumanization and war,
and about their hope and the courage to share this
(02:45):
hope publicly. They will share their personal stories of transformation,
lessons of joint peaceful resistance and the vastly different realities
they face in the same land. Osama has been dedicated
a dedicated peace activist for over fifteen years, working with
organizations across the field. He's a co founder of Salt
(03:07):
of the Earth and speaks regularly for organizations and universities
all around the world. When Osama is not working for
peace internationally, he supports his community in Jericho and others
in the West Bank to stay on their land and
rebuild homes, parks and schools. He also offers political educational
(03:27):
tours in the West Bank. Osama taught himself Hebrew in
order to connect on the land and regularly participate and
trauma healing work and workshops. He believes deeply in the
importance of personal, social, and political healing between Palestinians and
Israelis Rotum Levin was born and raised in Israel. After
(03:50):
his military service, he participated in a transformational intensive dialogue
program in Germany where he got to know Palestinians on
a personal and intimate level. Afterwards, he started organizing similar
programs in Jordan, dedicated himself to learning Arabic and began
building solidarity relationships with Palestinians He moved to bait Jala,
(04:13):
a Palestinian village in the West Bank, in twenty twenty
to get to know his neighbor's reality. When Rotem is
not giving conferences for peace internationally, he invests most of
his time creating healing spaces for Israelis and Palestinians on
the land. Thank you both so much for everything that
you're doing to benefit the whole world. And I think
(04:37):
you might be exhausted because you have a very busy schedule.
You've been traveling a lot and providing a lot of
people this amazing, powerful education through your stories. I went
to ask, I want, want to ask how you are
and then just give you the floor because you will
(04:59):
use every mo in it far better than I could
be future. Get sure how you are.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Thank you and so for me, I am good. I
mean physically, I'm good, emotionally we all know where we
are and what's going on. But I feel also I
am I can't complain because I'm safe, I am pad,
i am warm. I'm not like the children of Gazza
(05:31):
or the Prestinian prisoners who don't have food, who don't
have blankets, who are suffering from diseases. Both ways in
West Bank, in is religious and in Gaza. So yeah,
and I can't be tired. I don't allow myself to
(05:51):
be tired. And I want to thank you for having us,
because for me, it's it's a duty to do what
I'm doing while our people are killing each other. It's
a duty to fight for freedom and justice before beast.
(06:12):
And yeah, and now we are in the United States.
We just give talk in Brinceton University and we came
here to have this podcast with you. So I want
to thank you. And when I will come you and
all the people who are listening to us, and I
would love to share a little bit about my background
(06:34):
and how I came here. So first of all, I
want to say that we are not here to convince
people who's the victim and who's not victim, and who's
more human than the daughter. We are not here to
win conversations. We are not here to victimize tide and
(06:54):
forget that the other side is a human being. We
are here to talk about realities, to talk about in
just and to talk about international corrupted community that they
are not standing for their beliefs. I'm not a standing
for the international law and not standing for human rights
(07:16):
and that's what allow our situation to be the way
it is.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Thank you bout them. How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And yeah, I mean it.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
Exhausted. We do it since fourteen months, almost speaking every day.
We just finished another talk in Princeton University and and yeah,
I feel also like that I cannot stop what I'm
doing because when people are being massacred in our land
(07:55):
every day and people don't have food, if I have
the privilege to speak and and the ability to speak
to people and to bring the voice of the voiceless,
I feel like it's a duty. And yeah, it's not easy.
It's not easy because we keep following the reality and
(08:16):
we keep seeing every day how the situation is keep
escalating and millions of people don't have food, and it
feels real, like to realize that we're in twenty twenty
four people don't have food and it's all human made,
it's all politics. So it makes me very sad that
(08:38):
we reach this place and that we couldn't prevent it.
And I think that it's never too late. It's never
too late, because it can get much worse. And I
think at some point that we will not wake up
and change the direction it will reach everyone, to reach
are of us, because when there is in just this summer,
(08:59):
it means it endangers justice everywhere. And if will reach
also us blend the Turtle Island whatever people want to
call this place, I think, Yeah, it's time to wake
up and to realize what is happening. And again we're
doing it not to convince you that one side is
(09:23):
more human and the other. There are humans on both sides,
Both are traumatized, both believe that they fight for their existence,
both believe they are victims. And this is the problem,
and we need to educate ourselves and we need to
change the system for the sake of all of us,
because this system endangers all of us from the river
(09:44):
to the sea. No one is going to be safe
as long as this this system exists.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah, thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Rodium.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Do you want to start some of your background and
then turn it over when it's time to turn it
over to Osama.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
So, yeah, I was born and raised in Israel as
a Zionist, like basically everyone, I believe that Zionism is
my safety, that you have a Jewish and democratic state.
And yeah, I didn't know anything about Palestinians I grew
(10:28):
up in a Jewish bibbel. I didn't know Arabic because
they don't teach us Arabic in Israeli schools. And the
time of the Second Intifada, I was ten years old,
so I started to hear about suicide attacks and buses
are being exploded every week, and I was scared. I
was terrified because with all these Palestinians, I cannot see
(10:49):
them around me. Like in my school, there were only
Jews in my village, only Jews. So the segregation creates this.
It's let's say, it's much easier to feed you with
narratives or film on gearing when you don't know the
other side. And yeah, I was raised in a military
(11:10):
aid society. It means that everyone goes to serving the army.
This is the normal thing to do. So for me
growing up in the society, I realized that when I
will be eighteen years old, I will go and serve
in the army because everyone used to do it, all
my teachers, all my family, all my village. So the army,
it was maybe like your college. You know, you don't
(11:33):
question it. Once you finish high school, you go to college.
And yeah, I started to realize that again because the
military is such a place, such a central role in
my society. Later in life, if I go and serve
in the best units, it will be easier for me.
It will help me to find the best jobs, maybe
to be accepted to the best universities. For instance, I
(11:55):
studied medicine. First question to medical school, where did you
serve in the army? And when I said the name
of the unit, it was one of the best units.
The interviewer had a huge smile on his face and
I knew I passed the exam at the interview and yeah,
in doing the army service, I had one time one
(12:18):
night when my team was taken to the West Bank.
It was the first time I go to the West Bank,
to the other side of the wall, and there I
was asked to throw a shock of grenade on one
of the ards, and yeah, I did it because this
is what I was trying to do, to follow orders
the best way we can. And on the way back
to the base, suddenly one of the soldiers, one of
(12:42):
my friends, came to me and told me, you know,
I think we shouldn't do such things. And I remember
I wasn't ready to hear it. I wasn't prepared and
I felt somehow this connection in this moment, and I
was confused, and I felt, yeah, what are we doing
here actually? And the commander came here just talking about it,
(13:04):
and he told me you're a soldier. You do what
you oughtel to do, and this is the end of
the conversation. I don't want to hear about it anymore.
And for me, I think this night, I cannot forget it.
And it created the first crack in my understanding that
there is here something bigger than me, that I'm part
of it. But I don't feel really aligned, and I
(13:26):
didn't really know the whole picture, and I really didn't
understand what occupation means. But I felt that I did
something that I don't really I can't stand or I
can support. And yeah, luckily were these years were relatively quiet,
so I didn't have to fight or to shoot anyone
doing my army service, my three years of mandatory service,
(13:48):
and I was released physically and mentally healthy. And yeah, later,
like later, I found myself in Germany participating in one
of these dialog programs with Palestinians from the West Bank.
And it was at the age of twenty three. It
(14:09):
was the first time I met Palestinians from the West Bank,
and it was the first time I hear about the
Palestinian narrative. And I learned about the parallel universe that
exists only one hour drive for my home on the
other side of the world. But I've never imagined it exists,
because again I was told always by my society, it's
very dangerous there. You shouldn't cross the world. They might
(14:30):
teart you if doing on that you're in Israel. And
then I learned about like things that I've never heard before,
about Nacoba, about refugee kms, about massive ethnic cleansing that
enabled the establishment of the Jewish state, about hundreds of
villages that were destroyed, about two thirds of Palestinian population
(14:53):
were expelled. And for me it I was shocked because
how come I did hear about it? Why did I
have to go all the way to Germany to learn
about the history of my homeland. And yeah, later I
learned that like in Israel, there is a system to
prevent us, the Israelis, from actually realizing what is happening.
So in the Israeli scholar system, you're not allowed to
(15:16):
mention the n Acuba and the media. Of course, it's completely
complicity with all this narrative. And in theaters you're not
allowed to mention Akuba in et cetera. Like you have
many many ways and practices that Israel uses to prevent
Israelis from realizing what is happening. And that means catastrophe.
(15:43):
Someone doesn't know in Arabic. And this is the term
Palestinians used to describe what happened to them in forty
eight when the Jewish state was established. Our independence is
their catastrophe, and yeah, it was. It was a lot.
And I started. I felt like the Babbel exploded, and
I started to get to no more Palestinians and to
(16:05):
learn Arabic and to have solidarity relationships. And at some
point I moved to the westmank to live with my
new friends, and there I started to understand what it
means actually to live under military occupation, what it means
this world, because for me, this wall it was the
security wall. Suddenly this one is the apartheid world. It
(16:26):
is there to confiscate their lens, it is there to
prevent freedom of movement, and we can I am allowed
to go to the beach in Tel Aviv. Because I'm Jewish,
i can take my car across the checkpoint and I'm
at the beach. Palestinian friends in the West Bank they
cannot do it. So we have a whole generation of
twenty thirty years old like adults, they have never seen
(16:47):
the beach just because they are not Jews.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Wow. So this is.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Un believable and unbearable. And this is the reason why
we have violence. The violence they are keep telling us.
The violence is because they hate us and they don't
want us here. No, we cannot. Any human being will
resist under these circumstances. No one will accept this. This
like discrimination. No one will accept to be second classitism.
(17:17):
If he was born in thirty eight and if he
was born in the Western or Gazda is dead or
animal or stateless. So we have to understand that the
system is the problem. The system is the source of
the violence.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
And yeah, we.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
Want to live in peace. We need to live in peace,
but we have to create equality and justice. We cannot
live in peace under such circumstances. And yeah, we are
here to trying to tell them world that we can
live in peace as well as in Palestinians. This is
not the problem. The problem is the system. We have
to change the system. Then we can live in peace
and hopefully in safety and security and everything.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Yeah wow, thank you so much, just filling in details
so so many people have never ever heard. It's just
very enlightening. And it's just the compassion that you both are.
You sharing the fact that you learned Arabic and Osama
learned Hebrewted just to be able to communicate with people
(18:23):
you weren't even allowed to know. It's very powerful.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Aw Summer, are you having to step in.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Here, Thank you so much. So. Yeah. And I grew
up on the same land, different reality, different story, different life,
different clothes. Even you know, we live on the same land.
We receive rights according to our faith if you are
Jewish or full citizen with all the rights, if you
(18:57):
are Balstinian. You have listened. So yeah. So the catastrophe
dan Akba and forty eighth story was the first stories
of my grandmother, my great grandmother. I heard since I
was kids about how when the Jewish people came to
the land, they destroyed their village and they killed them,
(19:18):
and they massacred them, and they buried them and they
raped them and they had leaves to flee to East Jerusalem,
and sixty seven were from East Jerusalem. They ran to Jordan,
and none of them with my whole family. The big
family was a lot to come back because that was
the second transfer for the Prastinians, and the transfer is
(19:42):
still happening until today, different levels, different ways. And my family,
my grandfather was brave enough to sneak back to the land.
He was the only one from his whole family who
sneaked back to the land, to Jerusalem. And we were
expelled from Jerusalem again in the eighties because there's a
(20:04):
lot of flaws for Arabs. Only if Arabs don't live
like we have, like a green card in Jerusalem, we
don't have citizenship, so we are residents. Even though I
know seven grandfathers, greater grandfathers were born in Jerusalem, I'm
still resident, not citizens of my own country. And every American, Russian, Theobian, Moroccian,
(20:28):
I don't know Jew in the world, they have more
rights on my land than me. Yeah, so that's all
what I knew about Judaism. I used to see full
armed soldiers in front of my school. Soldiers used to
shoot at our school, tear girls, we run terrified as children.
(20:48):
I was traumatized most of my life from these people.
And the only thing I knew about them that they
are Jews and they are cognizers, and they are not
from the land and they don't belong here. And they
came to control my life. And they were proving this
every day that they don't care about me, they care
(21:09):
about themselves. And yeah. And at the age of fourteen,
when I grew up in a place where there is
shooting and killing and fears and cubation and soldiers and
army and military rules every day, I start to resist
(21:29):
like everyone else. And I started to write gravity on
the wolves, and I started to raise the Barrastinian flags
and yeah, and I was arrested for that. Because we
Balastinians don't have any rights. We live under military rules.
The army can arrest us for no reason. There is
a law in Israel called administrative detention that they can
(21:52):
arrest any Balastinian, kidnap any Palestinian, keep them in jail
from one day up to three years without trial, without
going to court. And if we go to court, well,
I don't go to the court the same court like
Rotam or like the settler who lives five minutes away
from me. I go to military court where the army
(22:13):
is the judge, and they are the count they are
the police, and they are the judge, and they are
the civil there's not civil services for me. And yeah,
to be honest, I wasn't resisting as a kid because
I want to liberate Palastine and kick the Jewish people out.
I was resisting out of fears, out of trauma of
(22:34):
this soldier who used to beat my teacher, who killed
my friends, who arrested my father, who scared my sisters,
who diminished the house of my neighbor. That's all I
knew about them. Yeah, and then I started to hear
about this agreement, about Oslo agreement, and I felt so
happy that we can reach this piece and we're going
(22:55):
to have kind of safety. Because as a kid, as
a teenager, I was not allowed to leave the house
after sunset. I did not feel saved in my house.
I did not feel save in my school. They used
to enter our schools and be our teachers. And after
a few years of of OSLO, I started to realize
(23:19):
that this piece is not really working. You know, they
promised us to give US twenty two persons of our homeland.
And every day they are building settlements, they are destroying
our homes, building illegal settlements, controlling our life, controlling our income,
controlling our economy, controlling our borders. And this is against
(23:42):
the international law, and this is against the disagreements, but
all the democratic countries in the world are supporting them
no matter what. And I felt like this is hypocracy
and this is not right, and I wanted to resist
again and again, and I kept resisting because I felt
life doesn't mean anything when you don't have rights, when
(24:05):
you don't have any kind of hope for the future,
when you don't have job, when you don't have playgrounds,
when you don't have theater, when you don't have like
whatever stage to sing or to dance or to do
anything in your life. You have only soldiers and army
(24:26):
and fears and killing and death. Yeah. So I was
like doing all what you imagine until I get arrested
again and yeah, and they I was very lucky that
with also agreement, I was released at the beginning before
(24:47):
I joined them, and that's why I joined them. And
then I felt like this is not working. The only
way is to fight the only way to fight against
this occupation is to fight them, to hurt them the
same way they hurt you. And in twenty ten, I
ended up in a place where I met a group
(25:08):
of Israeli Jewish people by chance. And I was so
mad that I ended up there, because, you know, as
a Palastinian who believe that I'm the only victim in
the world, and I have the old rights and I
have the right to resist, and the whole world against me,
I felt like why I would listen to these people.
They even killed their own prime minister because he signed
(25:29):
peace agreement. And I ended up listening and I found
out that, you know, I don't know everything, and maybe
there is something I need to learn in this life,
even though I believe in the smartest one, and my
beliefs are none broken, No can, no one can change it,
(25:51):
you know. And I started to hear Israelis talking about catastrophe,
talking about the Nakba, talking about acknowledgment of what they
have done, talking about occubation as an occubation, talking about
fighting this system that support or serve one people and
(26:13):
don't support the other. And they are willing to fight
with me and to stand with me and to danger
their jobs and their work and their future to support me.
And yeah, and you started to think, in order to
break the system, I can't keep using their own tools
(26:34):
they want me to hit because hating each other is
the best way to serve the system. And you can't
change system by using their own tools, hate and separation
and being the only right one and being the victim.
That's what they want me to be. And I decided
(26:55):
maybe to break the system, to work against the system.
Them wants me to be enemy, would want them. I
want to be friends. They want us to be separated.
We decided to be united. They wanted us to fight
each other to keep the occupation. We are fighting together
(27:16):
to end the occupation. And I created a group called
Visit Palestine to bring Israelis and Palastinians to meet each
other and to see each other and to because when
people meet, they recognize each other humanity. They stop justifying
the blood of each other. They stopped dehumanizing each other
(27:36):
and calling each other animals and names and y end
that changed my life. And I brought a lot of
Israelis to explain to them that guys, we Balatinians don't
hate Jews. We lived with Jews most of our life.
We are fighting against tystem that discriminate, using that gives
(28:01):
one side all the rights and don't give the other side.
And this system should break. And yeah, and to explain
to them what it means to be under military rules,
what it means that you don't have rights, what it
means that you don't have running water in your house,
that your city is closed by by checkpoints, that all
we can enter and kidnap and kill every day, and
(28:24):
there is no accountability for that. No one's saying. And
if I raise my voice, I'm a terrorist. And if
I fight violently, I'm a terrorist. And if I fight
none violently, I'm anti Stamite. And this is not right.
I have the right to fight like everyone else in
(28:44):
the world because this when people are accupied, resistance is justified.
But fighting violence with violence was for me just be
eating this circle of violence. So I decided to keep fighting.
And that's why I don't call myself beast activists. I
(29:06):
call myself this peaceful freedom fighter. I work for freedom,
for justice, for equality. Yeah, and I believe this is
the way. I believe. Keep dreaming, keep talking about Ballastinians
will be expelled from the land and it will be
only Jewish country. This will never happen. And keep dreaming
(29:29):
about Jews will leave the land and we will have
blast time back. This will never happen. Future is more
important than the past. Yeah, keep stucking there in the past,
in the circle of the chicken and the egg. Is
good to acknowledge things, but it's not good to stuck there.
(29:50):
And it's not good to keep ignoring the rights and
the existence of each other and the realities of each other.
And yeah, and I decided to change my way in
fighting in a way that can guarantee the freedom and
the security of the Palastinians and the freedom and the
(30:10):
security of the Israelis not because I am because I
am more human than anyone. Because that's what that's what
can happen in the end. That's what happened in South Africa,
that what happened in Australia, that what happened in America,
that what happened in Canada. Even if I want to
call them colonizers, cognizers don't leave. Unfortunately. You need to
(30:36):
find a way to reach rights and to change the
system from within. When you have all the rights, you
can like what happened in South Africa. It's a big
example for changing the systems from within, from inside. And yeah,
and that's where we are and that's why we are
here to kill the Americans, to kill the Balastinians, to
(30:58):
tell the Israelis, Palastine brow everyone, you are right, you
both are right, and you both are wrong, and between life,
I'm wrong. There is a big field meet us there. Wow. Yeah.
And to say to the word as a Balastinian, I
(31:20):
want my children to be dancers. I want my children
to be lawyers. I want them to be architects, I
want them to be singers, I want them to be players.
So please don't keep supporting occupation and make our kids
fighters and then call them theists.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
M Yeah, thank you. So deep and so moving and
just sudding, so much clarity, incredible, It's just it's just
(32:03):
incredible modeling and something we used to see too little
of in the world. So far that with your your courage,
your combined courage and your combined commitment, I think is
just really inspiring a lot of people, and I do
believe it's going to grow. I want to ask about
(32:25):
the I think you said there's a field between right
and wrong, Like, yes, we're right and we wrong. Guess
the other side is right and wrong. But there's a
field in the middle. Is that? What is that? What
you said? I just I think it just was really
helpful to talk about how you two found the field,
(32:48):
like and how you two found each other. And because
that's enormous. If you two hadn't done that, if you
both hadn't worked on healing from your own trauma, if
you hadn't both worked on accountability, if you hadn't both
been willing to be vulnerable and examined and be honest
and speak the truth, which takes a tremendous amount of courage,
(33:13):
the talks and the education you're giving wouldn't be happening.
And so just can you tell us more partly to
inspire and also to educate us, Like like what else
can I do? What else can any listeners or viewers
do that we're not doing that. You guys have just
created a new mold or use an old good one
(33:35):
that's still way underutilized.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
And yeah, it was a long journey and women seven
years ago in the summer and when we started giving
similar docs to Israeli teenagers mostly and also international groups
and Parestinian groups, and yeah, we became good friends and
(34:02):
and yeah, there were many challenges along the way, of course,
a lot of triggers, but we were consistent and we
knew that the friendship is above and the most important thing.
And and yeah, we walk on it every day. It's
(34:23):
not like that, it's you know, done, and and that's it.
Every day you have new challenges, every day, you have conflicts.
But but we are getting much better and we know
each other so well now and and yeah, it's about
two exactly. Maybe there is right in both sides, and
(34:47):
maybe we sometimes have to listen, you know, and and
to realize that what the other side feels is not
what I feel, and what it means to someone else,
it doesn't mean the same to me. So we experience
different things simultaneously, and we have to understand that, like
(35:11):
sometimes most of us are the victims, and sometimes there
is pain on both sides and we have to somehow
take responsibility and see it and talk and listen and
to see how we move forward together. And yeah, it's
a lot of work, but this is the only way.
There is no other way. We have to create the alternative.
We have to build the alternative if we'll just keep
(35:34):
fighting the exist without actually working on the relationship and
on what we envision for this place, it will not
happen if we keep fighting the system and just fighting
the system without working on what we want to do together,
how we can be together on that and how we
can share them. And I think it's only partial. So, yeah,
(35:58):
we are here to say we have to fight the system.
We have to build a new system, and we have
to create bridges. We have to find ways to be
together and to recognize each other. And yeah, I hope
we inspire people, and we need your help. We need
everyone's help, especially in the US, because without the support
of the US, this horrific situation will not continue one day.
(36:22):
Even there are those and the weapons, there are those
of VETO in the UN resolutions. So we need every
American to understand that you are also complicit in this situation.
And we need to unite and build the movement and
to show them what we want them to do, because
we are those who elect them. They work for us,
(36:44):
and sometimes they forget it.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
Yes, that's so many great points you just made.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, and I want to say a wise person said
yesterday I was smart, and I wanted to change the world.
And today I became wise, and I decided to change myself.
And I think that's where the changes start, because we decided,
(37:19):
if we don't live in bees, we should allow beast
to live in us. We should understand that we both
are human beings. Wroughte him. It's not as fault if
his grandfather was colonizer, or he came back to his land,
or hecubide me or whatever. And it's not my fault
(37:40):
that he has the Holocaust. But if we keep fighting
over these things again and over again, we're just feeding
this circle of violence. And when you succeed to leave
the storm behind you, you will not even remember those
(38:00):
who hurt you. You will not even remember those who
want to hurt you. But karma will remember and will
never forget. And I believe there is reality and there's
a dream. And for me, my dream is to see
(38:23):
everyone living on the land equal. The reality is difficult today,
but the dream is to see everyone living on the
land equal, where all of us have the same rights,
have the same freedom of movement, speaking the same language,
(38:43):
living at the same cities, using the same public transportation,
studying in the same schools. That's how we break the system.
That's how we make change by fighting together, not by
fighting each other. And yeah, I believe this is the way,
and believe this is our hope, and I believe you
(39:04):
know it's just keep fighting to be right will not
take you anywhere. For me, I don't want to be right.
I want to be happy. I want to be saved,
I want to be free.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
Oh, these words are so profound. I wanted to make
sure we I read a question that a listener asked,
and then we'll have time for for you. I want
to just kind of recapture some of the things like
each of you said, and then make sure you each
(39:45):
have a closing thought. We still have eight or nine minutes.
So we have two questions. One is if you're willing
to answer these questions. One is from Lenny asking do
your families get along and do things together? To answer
that question?
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah, so for me, my family always believed in beasts.
But they don't think this is helpful because they have
seen all the international laws are broken front of their eyes.
(40:29):
The countries who are lecturing us for human rights and
children rights and women rights and animals rights and gaze
rights and all these rights are sending weapons to subbort
genocide and to support death, and to subbort massacres, and
(40:51):
not to support the humanity. So people are disappointed. Even
we accepted twenty two percent of our homeland and the
world is still dark. Organize US United States, who offered
us the two state solutions. They keep call me stateless.
Until today Germany call me stateless. All these countries they
(41:11):
still they don't see in me human being enough to
be recognized. Yeah, so of course the family are disappointed.
I have a three interviews in jail administrative detention since
seventh of October. They don't have food, they don't have blankets,
they don't they have diseases. They all have scabus and
their skin. There are eight thousand Parastinian prisoners in jail.
(41:35):
The world is not aware about them, not talking about them.
So of course they are disappointed. But they believe this
is the way when they're justice, This is the way
when the international community really stand and support peace. This
is the way when both sides need peace and when
(41:56):
the international law stop everyone against peace. But now they
believe it's a mass, it's no man's land, and peace
is impossible. But they still believe I am doing what's
right for me and for my children and for my family.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
Thank you so much, rot To you want to answer
that question.
Speaker 4 (42:24):
Yeah, I think my family they want peace, but it's
difficult for them to imagine something beyond the current system
or let's say, stay to where everyone is equal when
there is no Jewish majority. It's difficult for them to
(42:47):
imagine this scenario. I was trying to to like introduce
them to my palsy and friends, and they even want
skin with me to Jericho, to me to Salmon and
the show them the old area and yeah, it's it's
a long process because for me, I dived into the reality.
(43:09):
I learned the language I lived with them and from
my parents. They came a few times, so they're still
it still feels very different for them, and I think
what helped me, Yeah, the language, the relationships. For now,
I don't see difference, you know, I see Palestinians as
Israel is. For me, it's the same. But for many
(43:32):
people who live in the bubbles, it's difficult to imagine
a different reality when this is everything that you know, right,
So so for my parents is still challenging, and especially
seventh of October was very difficult on them, and and yeah,
(43:53):
it's it's a lot of work and I'm trying to
explain to them. But yeah, for razrael Is also when
you are being fed by Israeli media and you keep
hearing about the seven of October until this day. Actually,
the Israeli media keep pushing stories from the seven of
(44:13):
October without showing israel Is what is actually happening in Gaza,
which is complete distraction, right, complete massive ethnic cleansing, starvation,
and they don't see it. They don't see it every
day like the rest of humanity. So there is a
(44:33):
huge bubble. And yeah, we do our our best to
somehow build bridges and.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
To oh gosh, thank you so much. I'll just read
out out Massy's question. Thank you, Lenny, thank you Massy,
and then I'll just try to recapture some of the incredible,
profound ideas that you're stating, both of you, and then
(45:05):
I'll hand it over to you all again. Anyway, Macy's
question was do you think we can ever reach peace
in the world? And anyway, I just feel like I
want to emphasize how you're both saying, you know, the
change has to start with me. We have to do
(45:26):
our work. And then Osama said, and then Rhotom you
said consistently, and you have to hold friendship and peace
and justice above anything else, and that you're both asking for.
There is no peace without justice, and asking for equality
for all human beings with the same rights, the same access,
the same tragradation, no second class citizen, no apartheid, apartheid treatment,
(45:52):
and for the international cuman. So there's the work we
need to do in ourselves, and we need to be
educated enough to listen into international laws and object when
they are being violated, and use our voices to add
to your voices. And we have three minutes left and
I just want to hand it over and well, I
(46:16):
guess we'll go back to Osama and then back to
Rhodem for your closing thought.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Thank you. So if we can reach bees, I will
say yes and reaching beast to finding bees inside you
and for us as Balestinian's, hope is not even an option.
Hope is a mast and we can't live without hope.
(46:43):
And the minute you start to lose hope, look at
the Balestinian mother in Gaza who lost her husband and
her child, and she's still collecting wood to make food
for her child who's still alive and injured, without hand
and without leg. Where does she bring the hope from?
(47:06):
Ask the doctors who don't have hospitals, who don't have equipment,
who don't have medicines, and they keep taking care of
thousands of injured people where the American bombs are falling
two thousand tons that their heads. Where they bring hope from.
(47:26):
So for us to lose hope, it's big shame if
they can keep the hope. Hope is privilege is a
choice for the privileged people. But we Barthinians don't have
the privilege to lose hope. The other thing I want
to say, and this will be the last thing I
(47:46):
want to tell everyone Israelis and Brastinians and the international
community and everyone, there is enough place on the land
for all of us. We are fighting over, but there
is enough place and this space on the land for
all of us. What's needed today is to expand our
(48:09):
hearts and to have enough spaces and our hearts for
each other, and that would make sure it's a big
change on our situation. Thank you so much, And I
want to invite everyone Israelis and Balastinian's boy is raely
Bron Balastine. To meet, to meet each other and our
end by Mahammud Derwish is a Balastinian poet. Before he
(48:33):
was expelled from Balastine in the seventies for his revolutionary poems,
he was in love with a Jewish girl and when
he was in Lebanon, she sent him a letter asking
when we are going to meet? He said, after a
year and the war. She asked, when will the war end?
(48:57):
He said, the time we meet, to recognize the pin
of each other, recognized the humanity of each other, recognized
the rights of each other. Don't add separation to our separation.
This will not end U. Thank you, thank you?
Speaker 3 (49:17):
And Rodin do you want to take the last bit?
And I forgot. People can donate, people can find your
beautiful website, Soart of the Earth. I'm sure funning with
help with your travels and getting more and more exposure
for more and more people.
Speaker 4 (49:34):
Yes, I just want to say that we're fighting for
all the people, for all humanity, actually, because we believe
that this conflict is not just about Israelis and Palestinians.
It's about fighting a huge military industrial conflicts that make
millions of dollars a week and keep fighting and killing
each other. So I'm here to call everyone. This is
(49:56):
about humanity, this conflict, and it's about changing the whole system,
because if we will keep following these criminals, it will
reach everywhere. It will reach everywhere, and it's time to
understand that military cannot solve conflicts. Military is not the way.
(50:16):
We need to find ways to sit and talk and
recognize each other's humanity and each other's trauma and each
other's fears, and to change this military complex because it
will not end in Palestine. It will keep going from
place to place to place, and we need to make
it illegal, actually this industry, and to start to find
(50:39):
ways how to deal with conflict. You know, but the
militaryism is endangering all of us. And yeah, we need dreamers.
We need people who know it. All of us know
it in the heart, but we are scared to speak up.
So we need dreamers and believers and people who know
that this is the right way and to find the
courage to speak cap. I know it might be scary,
(51:02):
you might lose some privileges, but if we will keep
swimming and following the stream, and we will not create
the change.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
Yeah, thank you both so much. I'm sorry we were
out of time. We would love to have you back.
We'll find another time. Thank you, and listeners and viewers.
Thank you our engineer, thank your producer. Tune in next
Wednesday APM and next Wednesday ap Eastern time and maybe
all have enriching conversations and diversity. Thank you both so much.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Thank you for the listeners. Don't give up on us,
don't forget us, hope. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (51:40):
Lot speech.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Speech in lots speech and lot love speech. Utic gallet switch,
A large gallet switch, all the high
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