February 26, 2025 • 46 mins
Dr Kwabena Asante is an engineering scientist w/extensive experience conducting water & climate resilience studies, planning & building data services applications & a serious games educational tool. He’s conducted research at federal & academic research ctrs, helps state/local agencies multi-year plan, project grants & presents at industry events.He co-authors articles & serves on a fed Science Advisory Board.Hear social & psychological impacts of extreme climate events, e.g. floods & wildfires.
It's Your Voice is broadcast live Wednesdays at 8PM ET Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). It's Your Voice is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
It's Your Voice Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
It's Your Voice is broadcast live Wednesdays at 8PM ET Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). It's Your Voice is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
It's Your Voice Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not
those of W four c Y Radio. It's employees are affiliates.
We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability,
explicit or implied shall be extended to W four c
Y Radio or it's employees are affiliates. Any questions or
comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you
(00:20):
for choosing W four c Y Radios.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Ticket, Let's peak, sure.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
In, let's breach in lot, Let's breach in lot's lot,
let's a lot.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
We're gonna go ahead and get started. I'm going to
introduce you and welcome you to It's Your Voice, the
show that hosts enriching conversations and diversity. My name is
Kamika Edwards Avoberro, and I'm standing in from Bahia Yaksan today.
You can find Bahia's website at know what you Want
Coaching dot WordPress dot com or descriptions of her diversity
(01:19):
education courses and coaching opportunities. She offers, I'm excited to
be a guest host again for the It's Your Voice podcast,
So to remind you you the audience of who I
am in my personal life, to call me mom, to
call me sister, and one calls me wifey. In my
professional life, I have worked in the public education school
(01:43):
system since nineteen ninety nine and I have been practicing
as a therapist since twenty fifteen and have been on
as a guest host and as a guest. So I'm
happy to be back today. Our show is about extreme
climate and its effects and to talk with us about
that from a professional standpoint experiential standpoint. Our guest is
(02:06):
please welcome doctor Quabna Assante.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Pleasure to be here with you again.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
There, you are welcome, Quabna. I'm going to read your
bio so the audience knows who you are.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Okay, absolutely, all right.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Doctor Quabna Sante is an engineering scientist with extensive experience
conducting water and climate resilience studies, planning and building data
services applications, and serious games as an educational tool. He's
conducted research at federal and academic research centers. Quagna also
(02:41):
supports state and local agencies and multi year planning project
development grants and presents at industry events. He also co
authors journal articles and serves on a Federal Science Advisory board.
On this episode, He and We, he describes and we
will discuss the social and psychological impacts of extreme climate
(03:04):
events such as bloods and wildfires. Doctor Sante, welcome and
thank you for your time.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
Absolutely, always a pleasure to be here, and you can
It's just a reminder, with the difficulties that we had
at the beginning of the show, that life is never
a straight line, right. You have ups and downs, and
the climate certainly experiences its fair share of those.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Yes, so is life. We have to kind of go
with the flow, and there's not a lot of choice
we have when things happen. I could have been more prepared,
of course, but the uncertainty that we deal with in
our climate and our planet does reflect a lot of
life and the amount of control that we do have
(03:52):
and the amount of control that we don't have. So
where would you like to Where would you like to
start our discussion today?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well, it's.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
We've been talking a little bit about recent events and
and I live in California. I believe you here in
California as well, and just this year we've we've experienced
uh uh some really extreme wildfires in southern California, the
(04:22):
Palisades Fire. They eating fire caused massive damage, burned acres
and acres, thousands of acres of land that were fatalities,
thousands of structures, lots of homes residential predominantly were lost
(04:43):
in these fires. And it's a it's a sobering reminder
that in a changing climate that we have to deal
with with with extremes of a kind that uh, perhaps
we we would not have expected in the past. In
in the past, we would have thought that wildfire season
(05:06):
and at the end of summer early fall is about
as far as it would go. So a fire in
January was thought to be a wildfire was thought to
be completely unheard of. But now we are dealing with
some of the worst possible fires that we could have
imagined in these times. So, just the very real impacts
(05:29):
of climate change impacting our communities, impacting people, and and
uh and and and getting understanding what that means in
the short term. In the long term is uh, it
is really critical uh to protecting ourselves, but but also
(05:52):
protecting our communities in general. So for me, it's also
very personal because I work in this arena, have worked
in this arena for the past two decades focused on
climate change issues both internationally and within the US in
different parts of the US, and in that work, it
(06:13):
becomes quickly clear that there are just a whole range
of things that we have to think about when it
comes to these extremes. So it just makes for perfect
time for us to be able to talk about some
of these issues.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Yes, you mentioned the devastating effects. You mentioned communities being ravaged,
and how you're personally involved in the work, and I
want to I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge
all the human cost and the personal effect that they're
(06:52):
experiencing directly that us in northern California, we've definitely had
our fair share of fires, and so we we can
relate on some level. But I was thinking, if that
were me in the Palisades and the Eaton fire, what
would I grab? Would I be thinking? What emotions would come?
(07:14):
And so I was just I want to just have
a moment of silence, just to think about all the
humans that are affected, the pets, homes, significant items lost,
Just a moment of silence for all the loss and
the grief and the lives devastated by the fires in
La So just a moment of silence with me, please
(07:42):
thank you. As a mental health professional, you know this
would be considered a traumatic event. The scale of loss
would be considered traumatizing and would leave some lasting invisible scars,
maybe visible scars. So I just thank you for honoring
(08:03):
the people that are directly affected and us we're taking
a stance of how this happened. What are what are
the thoughts and the emotions that go through people's minds
when any community, not just l A, but where l
A is the most recent tragedy. What happens when a
(08:25):
natural hazard such as a flutter wildfire impacts the community
on a on a human level.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
Yeah, thank you for that, Kamika. And it really is
important to acknowledge the the the pain, the trauma uh
that communities endure, but to kind of set help us
kind of walk through that path. Let's think of what
happens when when when an event is coming. So if
(08:55):
you live in in places like California, you've you've you
you've understood for a long time that we have a
set of hazards that climate hazards, extremes, wildfire, floods, droughts
that impact your area. And so in the long term,
you would have been preparing you you'd maintain the shrubs
(09:16):
around your home, you would have perhaps purchase insurance, there
would be various actions. Your home would be built with
certain code considerations, there'd be certain actions that you would
consider to prepare yourself. And then absolutely and and and
initially from the prevention standpoint, but then when when the
(09:40):
event is is imminent. For example, we see on on
on UH in the news, in the in the various
sources of information apps, local news stations, that there's a
fire that that potentially could impact your area. At that
point you get into kind of that act. Hey, let
(10:01):
me monitor the situation. Is it time for me to
go to unpack? What do I need to pick up
and pack? There's a lot of anxiety that is associated
with that whole preparing for an imminent event.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
Yes, and so limbo right, because the state or the
departments involved for prevention and safety say do this X,
Y and z, and then you get to decide you're
supposed to follow X, Y and z. But some people
like are in limbo about what do I do because
there's it's not that simple to just follow direct orders.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
Absolutely, and so there's a whole range of emotions that
you've got to go through with that. If it's a
fire in your neighborhood or a flat imminent in your region,
you're generally operating at a very high level of stress
for a long time, even before the event happens. And
then the event happens, and say your home is damaged
(10:59):
or may not have been damage, You've got to deal
with the reality of that loss. In some of these instances,
we're talking about life loss, talking about loss or damage
to property. You've got to deal with with with that,
that set of emotions. Yeah, And at the same time
(11:19):
you're dealing with it, you've got to look around your
broader neighborhood and your house may have been spared, your
neighbor's house has been completely destroyed. Even if your house
is completely spared, you're still having to deal with a
neighborhood that has changed.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
There's loss there.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Imagine living in the in the Palisades and having all
the homes around you devastated and yours being the only
standing house. You still don't have a neighborhood to live
in because it's everything is gone.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
So you're talking about that, you're talking about the the
external reality and as I and I was referring to
the internal reality of when trauma happens, when a tragedy happens,
the stress response and the brain is designed to protect
us with fight, light, knees, fond responses. And I'll just
take this minute to encourage everyone to know how they
(12:15):
typically or what tendencies they have when they respond to stress,
because not only you have to deal with the reality
of what has happened on the outside, there's a whole
lot of stuff going on inside the body, inside the brain,
inside the mind, heart, and just how you how you respond,
how you react to stress. So I just want to
(12:36):
put that out there too. So there's the reality of
the outside world and the ourt inner world.
Speaker 5 (12:42):
And absolutely spot on. So there's stuff going on inside.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
But often we we we start with the initial realization
of the physical loss. Physical loss of community is going
to impose a certain set of emotions on you. If
you've lost friends, you've you've lost you've lost neighbors, That
itself is a source of trauma, and that's impacting you.
(13:11):
It's impacting your neighbors, it's impacting the first responders, yes,
who have to show up and and and and and
help to either put out the fires, help to clean
out of it in the event of a flood. Absolutely,
And it's it's impacting the planners who for a long
(13:35):
time have been preparing for these types of events and
suddenly recognizing that some of their worst fears have been realized.
And in effect, even though they had knowledge that this
type of event could happen, that they failed to prevent it. Yes,
So the long term from that that that you're referring
(13:57):
to follows that initial set of trauma, that initial trauma
of of loss of local loss, perhaps for yourself, of
communal loss, of loss of relationships, and and and and
that that long term trauma is significant. And think about,
for example, the Palisades region that was actually a fire
(14:22):
there four years ago, a much smaller fire burned a
lover one thousand, thousand, three hundred acres compared to this
one that burned close to twenty five thousand acres. So
there was a fire within that same region. So these
folks have experienced the whole range of emotions again, and
(14:45):
and and and and after. It's that that repeated trauma
has long term impacts, that repeated trauma happens. For me
as a practitioner, I feel it, and I'm I'm along
a plan as a climate scientist, and I'm uh involved
a lot in helping communities plan for the long term.
(15:07):
I'm also a call upon to support response emergency response activities.
So I've lived in both worlds of the responder and
and obviously as a as as in my private life,
I've also experienced different disasters. But it's uh, it's it's
(15:28):
it's significant how that repeated the traumatization happens even when
you're not involved in a direct event. So even the
palacetids fire, I was, I was not physically involved in
that incident. I was not physically had I live in
northern California. This happened in southern California. But I still feel,
(15:50):
uh go through that whole feeling the pain of all
the stages of of of of that event.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Through all that.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
As for watching it on TV too, right, that's who
are taking in the news and taking in the coverage
and reading about it daily and keeping track of the
updates and the acreage and the percent the percentage contained.
Are you saying that because it's describing secondary trauma or
vicarious trauma, even though we weren't directly there, but we
(16:20):
were indirectly affected, just like the first responders weren't directly there,
but they are impacted because they're helping the ones who
were directly affected. Is that along the same lines as
secondary vicarious trauma?
Speaker 5 (16:35):
And I'll rely on you for the correct descriptions in
terms of the psychological the language of psychology.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
But that's what it comes.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
But absolutely, it is a trauma that you feel after
the event, even if you're not directly connected to the event,
just by knowing what it felt like, you go through
it every time you see it happening, whether to somebody else,
to your neighbors far away, you still go through that
(17:08):
whole cycle again, of of of feeling feeling uh the
set of beings and in fact, within the the climate
and environmental communities, terms have begun to emerge. Eco anxiety
climate trauma are some of the terms that we use
to describe this the sense of UH having to relive
(17:32):
uh this trauma over and over again.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
Over and over again. You said eco anxiety and climate trauma.
Speaker 5 (17:40):
Right, are two of the terms. I'm sure there are
plan many others, but but those are two that I'm
particularly familiar with. And eco anxiety, uh happens. It has
a broader connotation in the sense that it it's a
sense of impending doom that we're destroying the the environment,
(18:02):
the environment, that the ecosystem that allows us to live
on Earth, that natural ecosystem that we have, that we
are destroying it. And and so every time that action
is taken that adversely impacts the environment, that that anxiety
(18:23):
is felt again. And sometimes it is climate and and
and sometimes it is not. But but it's still a
repeating uh sorry, if you phone going off, you.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
What you're describing The kids that I've had in my
office that can't seem to focus or that can't seem
to get out of this despair and hopelessness state emotional
state because they're because they're inundated with the news of
disasters and the climate crisis, and they have it's affected
(18:57):
their mental health to the point of, you know, it's
hard for them to function. It's their their experiencing impairment.
And I've had so I've had some teens who are
deep feelers or highly sensitive and who really care about
our our our home planet Earth, and who are affected
on a great level. I would just want to normalize
(19:17):
that that if you're feeling that way, that it's you're
not alone in feeling eco eco anxiety, eco anxiety and
climate trauma. And I was wondering if you can harken
back to a time when you went through your own experience,
because I was thinking about Hurricane Andrew in the eighties
in Mississippi is what I remember. One example, do you
(19:40):
have one would you like to share? Do you feel
comfortable sharing one of your experiences?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Absolutely?
Speaker 5 (19:46):
And if you don't mind, I would actually shad too
because Katrina was was was a significant event for me
at that point.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
We lived in Baton.
Speaker 5 (19:59):
Rouge, and uh and and.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
And actually.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
I was married in Baton Rouge just before Katrina and
so and and and left on a on a trip
and and and uh and and for kind of a
week after Katrina, it felt like I had lost my
spouse because I could not contact I could not get
(20:27):
in contact with the phone lines were down, and and
it took a long time before we were able to
re establish a connection. And I had family all over
essentially calling me trying to figure out what was what
was going on. As a as as a as a
(20:47):
as a practice.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
No.
Speaker 5 (20:48):
Obviously, watching the response both of the the the federal
government as well as a community response to to Katrina,
it was disappointing for me.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
It was a personal essentially a low point in in
in in.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
My careers as recognizing that that our governments were not
going to be able to protect us through those types
of events, and and and especially recognizing on the scale
of of of of uh, look at climate models and
(21:27):
things like that, that these types of events would happen
in the future and perhaps at the larger scale mm
hmm uh. It really instilled in me the idea that
you've got to do all that you can in the
prevention mode. Once the event has happened, you really cannot
cannot cannot prevent it, cannot prevent the damage, cannot prevent
(21:51):
the the tramatic injury that's going to that's going to occur.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
I imagine prevention wasn't on your mind as a newly.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Certainly certainly not prevention of that kind.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
Oh yeah, So what was the story that you experienced?
Speaker 5 (22:14):
Absolutely? And the second example that I would give would
be just a more recent one. In twenty twenty three,
California had an extremely wet year where a series of
what we call atmospheric river events brought a lot of
precipitation throughout the state. We had record snowpacks, particularly in
(22:37):
the central and southern Sierras, and for a long time,
the risk, the threat of flooding was was in the air,
and so I participated in that in the emergency response
activities related to to to those lads, and and for me,
(22:58):
what was striking about out that was because this event
unfolded over a really long time, was five or six
months of continuously watching for the risk of extreme flooding,
as different storms were coming, as snowpack was building up,
as a little incidents would occur all over the state. Essentially,
(23:24):
as in the role of a first responder, we were
active and for almost five almost continuous months during the
early part of that year.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
That's extremely difficult.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
Recalled that the Emergency Operations Center for the state essentially
opens twenty four hours when there's a there's an event
like that, when there's a threat of that nature.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
And so what.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
Became clear is that these extreme long events and burnout
first responders. I have some colleagues that said they would
not do this job again because they could not handle
the stress of being on for that extended period of time.
Even Colice that that, I mean some quite those that
(24:17):
were not inclined to quit still felt that they had
to deal with extreme exhaustion. Took a long time to
recover from that. And then again, if you begin to
project that out and and think we're entering into a
period what we're going to see more of these types
(24:38):
of events, and then the nature of the trauma essentially
begins to begains to multiplayer and it's and it's effects.
This is effects on first responders, on planners, on people
whose job is to help us manage through those crises.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
So you said twenty four hours a day for five
months and recording and noting and watching and you know, preparing.
So just a NonStop hyper vigilants.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Absolutely and and and I'm not saying that people had
to work plenty for us NonStop. I mean there's the cycle.
There are folks that are rotating in and out. But
when you're in the middle of an emergency as a
first responder, even the even if you're not personally on
(25:31):
the job, you're not personally on that phone, you still
cannot mentally disconnect you're still monitoring what's happening, You're still
you're still trying to fully understand the situation. You're still
it's it's it's difficulty near impossible to to turn off.
(25:53):
And so those those extremely complex emergencies, as we there's
some times term or long term engagements of that nature
really really put a toll on on on on first responders,
but I imagine on local communities as well as they
have to deal with with with these kinds of events.
(26:16):
And and what's in a sense challenging is uh this
research that's emerging that's studying to show that when we
look at an event like the floods of UH and
and the research actually started with hurricanes.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
The study that I have my story to tell you
about hurricane and absolutely go ahead. It was we lived
in Mississippi on the Gulf coast and uh my mom
and dad were monitoring, watching the news, and we got
the word that we have to evacuate, and we boarded
(26:56):
up our windows and packed up and we drove I
think we drove north away from the away from the coast,
and evacuated to Jackson, a city, the capital city of Mississippi.
And when we got back to past Christian. The small city,
the small coastal city where we lived is Past Christian, Gulfport, Biloxi,
(27:20):
those areas the house was almost recognized, unrecognizable, and our
home wasn't this safe place anymore and lasts everywhere, and
just I think that left an image in my mind
of this is what happened can happen to your your
safe space, This is what can happen to your your sanctuary,
(27:42):
your your home. And to this day, this was forty
years ago. To this day, it's hard for me to
sleep during storms or during thunder and lightning, and it's
hard for me to sleep when there's like a heavy
rain because I'm reminded of Hurricane Andrew, and you were
talking about the psychological the lasting effects, like when we're
(28:04):
experiencings either or over and over and over. It's not
just a one and done and you can't leave the
trauma like in a little box, compartmentalize or like where
you're saying about the first responders leaving work at work,
like it's part of you, it's part of your experience.
And now, what are some of the lasting consequences of
(28:26):
the people in the Palisades fire and the eaten fire.
What are some things that or what have your have
your studies kind of revealed what are the lasting effects
of experiencing a trauma, either directly or indirectly caused by
natural disasters.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
So as you talk, you described your own experience.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
With that Hurricane Andrew.
Speaker 5 (28:51):
Now now trying to imagine that Hurricane Andrew impacted a
really large area, really large of the of the southeastern
uh you us now imagine that over the period, over
the course of I don't know, the past fifty years,
all the different hurricanes that have impacted that region. So
(29:12):
study was performed to try to assess what some of
those long term impacts of hurricanes were. And one of
the shocking briss they found was that often we measure
the initial damage of hurricanes. We measure the initial depths
(29:37):
in hurricanes, the fatalities, and then we leave it that
when people go into the process of reconstruction, and we
essentially stopped tracking those fatalities. But these long term studies
have shown that over the ten to fifteenth period following
(29:59):
each of those major hurricanes, that the fatalities in the
impacted areas went up. The number of fatalities in those
areas went up. Now, this is coming from the disaster
management community, so they have not fully gone into that
process of trying to figure out exactly why, but all
(30:20):
the fatality counting all courses of fatalities went up. This
is this is this is critical because the types of
stress responses that you describe could easily be driving these
additional deaths. And the number of death in the long
term far far exceeded the initial deaths.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
And so the the the trauma is is real, the
impacts are lasting, the impacts can actually lead to additional deaths.
And in fact, we are studying there are few studies
that have started and I'm talking about these studies that
coming out probably in the last three to four months,
and and and there's been a couple now that have
(31:06):
been published on floods as well, and and we're actually
starting to look at that in our own work. And
I haven't seen one on wildfires, but I would not
be surprised if if if studies started to follow that
with wildfires. Actually, the expectations would be that some of
(31:27):
the impacts would would be health impacts directly related to
smoke inhalation and and and and that, but in addition,
stress and and the and the long term impacts of
stress are very real, and so those are some of Yeah,
(31:47):
you've got to take care of that that trauma otherwise
it can lead to long term consequences and even death.
And so recognizing this UH has been a bigger harm
moment for us. I also want to just point out
on the global scale, when it comes to climate change,
the impacts are even more dramatic because every child growing
(32:11):
up now knows that there are the climate is changing,
that there are real consequences for that. And they've described
the scale of climate trauma, particularly in young people. There
was one study that found over forty percent of kids
who were dealing with some form of drama related to
(32:33):
climate related to climate issues.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
That's staggering.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
It is you just reminded me of that. There was
a call for counselors in my professional organization to go
and help out provide some grief counseling. Lost counseling be
a safe space for kids to process the losses from
a wildfire. I don't remember which one, we've had so
many in California, but I distinctly remember the young man
(33:04):
was about seven or eight years old, but he was
talking about his favorite, his favorite video game console that
he he he told me about his games, how he
would play with his friends and his family. He would
tell me all the things that he was going to
miss about it. And and in my adult mind, I
(33:24):
was like, you're gonna miss a toy or a game
that much? And to him it was like his whole
world had fallen apart. And that really stuck with me.
How vividly detailed he was about how sentimental, how significant
the game was for him and his life and the
(33:45):
loss that impacted him.
Speaker 5 (33:47):
And and and you referred earlier in the show to
UH to the to the four different types of responses
UH to to traumatic events and and different ones of
us UH adopt different ones. Some people want to fight back,
want to fight against all the forces that are the
evil forces that are causing all of the Some people,
(34:10):
UH just want to run away from the issue. Some
people just don't know what they do. Some people want
to appease themselves the forming and so the different responses
and and different the different paths that people choose UH
can be significant. And and UH folks that interpret this
(34:34):
on a on a on a larger kind of global scale,
I think.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
The the the.
Speaker 5 (34:39):
They feel like, I mean, we've our responses as a
as a as a global community, as as the United
States at different points has been different. Initially, when climate
change issues that are coming up, the clear dominant response
was fight, no, climate is not real. Now those debates,
(35:03):
those debates have largely disappeared from from the from the
from the public domain, at least, it doesn't seem to
occur with any intensity.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Right now that you can you can't change something that
you're not willing to acknowledge or accept.
Speaker 5 (35:21):
Well, you can, you can, you can deny it, and
and at a certain point it takes. It takes i
would say, a whole lot of will power to start
denying it once you start seeing the effects.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
On on on on you.
Speaker 5 (35:37):
Yourself, because you whether it's a loss of your of
of of your neighborhood farm, it's I mean, areas are
conservative as well as liberal areas of of of this
country have experienced extreme events that of a scale that
that is far beyond the kinds of things that that
(35:58):
we used to see. Noah tracks how many of these
extreme events there are when they started tracking this. Right
so NOWA is the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is
the organization that tracks weather events. The National Weather Services
(36:21):
are part of NOAH Ocean Marine Science and all of that.
When they started tracking these types of extreme events, they
were looking at four or five extreme events that cost
a million dollars worth of damage a year. Last year
there were twenty seven such events that cost a billion
(36:44):
dollars of damage.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
Are you talking about the United States or globally.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Not globally within the US?
Speaker 4 (36:50):
Just the US? Okay, got it?
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Just within the US.
Speaker 5 (36:52):
The combination of floods, severe storms, droughts, winter storms, hurricanes, Yeah,
wildfires that cost a billion dollars worth of damage billion
with a B, with a B that statistic distract. Yeah,
the number is tracted every year. And initially they were
(37:15):
talking about four, and now we're talking about on the
order of in the twenties. Even if you account for
kind of the change in the in the value of
the dollar, the purchasing power of the dollar, you're still
talking about easily twenty three events if you if you
normalize them to a common year. And so the number
(37:36):
of these events has grown drastically, and so now the
phase in which our kind of global response to climate
issues is more described as what's a collective dissociation is
the term that is that is used in which.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
That one people like numb out. Every time a story
comes in, it's like, oh, another one, and it's just
like normal.
Speaker 5 (38:02):
Pretty much pretty much. And it's a it's it's a
mechanism to try to protect ourselves. It's a false mechanism,
but it's a mechanism. That's what we essentially adopt, like, oh, yeah,
it's a bigger issue than I can deal with, so
now let me just do something else. And and it
(38:22):
doesn't it our pain doesn't go away.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
We don't.
Speaker 5 (38:26):
We don't, we don't find ways to to it really
are not resolving the issue. And so the the I
guess my, my, my overall kind of counsel to people is, uh,
you've got to first recognize that you're dealing with this
(38:46):
type of trauma, acknowledge that it's it's a real thing,
and uh kind of speak up, speak up about it.
Speaking up is part of you at nolagement, but it's
also it also allows you to have a conversation broadly with.
Speaker 4 (39:07):
What are you talking about? Processing it and talking.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
About it, Well, it starts with processing it, Okay, Advocacy
comes further down the line, but it starts with processing it.
When when when folks are not willing to have that conversation,
you're basically carrying the trauma on within yourself and essentially
(39:31):
trying to pretend that it doesn't exist talking about it.
Having a show with Kamika UH is a great way
for us to have this conversation UH in a in
a in a public way to describe the range of
You've described some of the things that you've experienced and
the impressions that they made on you. I've talked about mine.
(39:54):
I'm pretty sure there's lots of people listening to who
are dealing with or have have similar experiences.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
And is it dramatic way once you've experienced it, you're like,
you're you're never the same, thinking of the ripple effects
through the community and the nation and the world. Is
that too dramatic a statement that once you experienced something
like that, you're never the same.
Speaker 5 (40:17):
So again, this is why I cread carefully because I
am I am not by any means a trained psychologists.
I can tell you that for me, it's changed my
perspective on on on how I look at governments and
the role of governments, on how I look at kind
(40:41):
of how I prepare myself, what I should be prepared
to rely on. I know I cannot outside help is
not coming. It may come in in in various forms, but.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
It really.
Speaker 5 (41:00):
That you've got to be prepared to deal with those
types of situations when they occur, relying on resources that
that you control. You cannot control the externals, the external forces,
but having identifiable resources that you can control, that's that's key.
(41:22):
You shouldn't try to essentially manage to those situations without it.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
You're talking about the recovery process, right, the recovery of
once you've experienced something, And maybe that was like too
dramatic and like as far as absolutes, you'll never be
the same, maybe that is, but you you will be
changed and how you But you don't have to stay stuck.
You don't have to. You can recover. But you said
by speaking up, and you said by preparing, what else.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Can they do? The advocacy pat.
Speaker 5 (41:53):
So these are these are large global problems, and what
what I don't want people to do is to take
it upon themselves that, oh, no, I have to resolve everything,
or I have to resolve the issue all by myself.
Preparedness is to ensure that that you have at least
(42:16):
a bare minimum to get by. But at the same time,
policy changes are required. This is this is not a
problem that can be resolved essentially by.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
By an individual.
Speaker 5 (42:30):
By individual action alone, I can I can do what
I can to reduce my admissions. That alone is not
going to resolve the issue. It's going to take governments,
is going to take society taking a different stance about
about how we view economic development, about how we how
we view our sources of energy.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
It's going to take.
Speaker 5 (42:56):
How we trade with other nations, how we have heard
the expression used in some places, how we colonize the earth.
We cannot as UH assume that we can grab all
the resources that we that we want, that we that
we're able to UH build these massive businesses, and as
(43:18):
a result of doing all of that, that we can
ignore everything that's happening around the environment.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
So advocacy UH.
Speaker 5 (43:26):
In moving for change, in policy, in moving for changing
the environment is important and has a has a critical
role to play, and so and and and essentially reclaim
power for yourself by being able to be at the
forefront elections matter. Pay attention to to to candidates and
(43:48):
and and what they're saying about these issues. But but
also form communities because this is.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Not an issue that you are going to resolve alone.
Speaker 5 (43:58):
Work with others, the types of engagement in which we
talk about the issues.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Absolutely get involved.
Speaker 5 (44:06):
Don't sit back and and and and expect that somehow
these are going to get resolved right others or that
they are insurmountable.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Uh. They we can make change if.
Speaker 5 (44:19):
We step up together, make our voices heard loudly enough
that we become a force for change.
Speaker 4 (44:27):
Yes, And that's a that's a hopeful note to wrap
up on because we started out talking about the tragedy
and the trauma of things that we can have natural
disasters that we cannot control and the effects are devastating.
But what I've taken away is how we can prepare,
(44:47):
how we can process, how we can prevent, how we
can recover, and how we can affect change at the
micro level and the macro level where the where the
laws are being made and where the changes are Because
you're right, you can't take take take, take take from
the planet and expect there to be no consequences.
Speaker 5 (45:07):
And so and if you need mental health, mental health
professionals uh out there and can can help you guide
you through that process. Obviously it is one, but here
uh uh regular host is also another. U can help
you through this process.
Speaker 4 (45:28):
Doctor Sante. I want to thank you for your profession
I want to thank you for your service. I want
to thank you for your research. I want to thank
you for the data and the putting a face on
the human effects of natural disasters. It's been a pleasure
talking with you.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
Always a pleasure talking to you.
Speaker 4 (45:47):
And I'll close by saying that be sure to tune
in too. It's your voice next Wednesday at a pm
Eastern Time on W four c Y dot com or
talk for TV. May we all have riching conversations and
diversity this week. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Thank you. Logic. Let's beech logic. Let's speech of the
in logic. Let's speech in logic. Let's beach all the
(46:24):
in logic.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Let's fitch a logic.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Let's beech all the
The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are
solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not
those of W four c Y Radio. It's employees are affiliates.
We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability,
explicit or implied shall be extended to W four c
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comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you
(00:20):
for choosing W four c Y Radios.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Ticket, Let's peak, sure.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
In, let's breach in lot, Let's breach in lot's lot,
let's a lot.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
We're gonna go ahead and get started. I'm going to
introduce you and welcome you to It's Your Voice, the
show that hosts enriching conversations and diversity. My name is
Kamika Edwards Avoberro, and I'm standing in from Bahia Yaksan today.
You can find Bahia's website at know what you Want
Coaching dot WordPress dot com or descriptions of her diversity
(01:19):
education courses and coaching opportunities. She offers, I'm excited to
be a guest host again for the It's Your Voice podcast,
So to remind you you the audience of who I
am in my personal life, to call me mom, to
call me sister, and one calls me wifey. In my
professional life, I have worked in the public education school
(01:43):
system since nineteen ninety nine and I have been practicing
as a therapist since twenty fifteen and have been on
as a guest host and as a guest. So I'm
happy to be back today. Our show is about extreme
climate and its effects and to talk with us about
that from a professional standpoint experiential standpoint. Our guest is
(02:06):
please welcome doctor Quabna Assante.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Pleasure to be here with you again.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
There, you are welcome, Quabna. I'm going to read your
bio so the audience knows who you are.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Okay, absolutely, all right.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Doctor Quabna Sante is an engineering scientist with extensive experience
conducting water and climate resilience studies, planning and building data
services applications, and serious games as an educational tool. He's
conducted research at federal and academic research centers. Quagna also
(02:41):
supports state and local agencies and multi year planning project
development grants and presents at industry events. He also co
authors journal articles and serves on a Federal Science Advisory board.
On this episode, He and We, he describes and we
will discuss the social and psychological impacts of extreme climate
(03:04):
events such as bloods and wildfires. Doctor Sante, welcome and
thank you for your time.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
Absolutely, always a pleasure to be here, and you can
It's just a reminder, with the difficulties that we had
at the beginning of the show, that life is never
a straight line, right. You have ups and downs, and
the climate certainly experiences its fair share of those.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Yes, so is life. We have to kind of go
with the flow, and there's not a lot of choice
we have when things happen. I could have been more prepared,
of course, but the uncertainty that we deal with in
our climate and our planet does reflect a lot of
life and the amount of control that we do have
(03:52):
and the amount of control that we don't have. So
where would you like to Where would you like to
start our discussion today?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well, it's.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
We've been talking a little bit about recent events and
and I live in California. I believe you here in
California as well, and just this year we've we've experienced
uh uh some really extreme wildfires in southern California, the
(04:22):
Palisades Fire. They eating fire caused massive damage, burned acres
and acres, thousands of acres of land that were fatalities,
thousands of structures, lots of homes residential predominantly were lost
(04:43):
in these fires. And it's a it's a sobering reminder
that in a changing climate that we have to deal
with with with extremes of a kind that uh, perhaps
we we would not have expected in the past. In
in the past, we would have thought that wildfire season
(05:06):
and at the end of summer early fall is about
as far as it would go. So a fire in
January was thought to be a wildfire was thought to
be completely unheard of. But now we are dealing with
some of the worst possible fires that we could have
imagined in these times. So, just the very real impacts
(05:29):
of climate change impacting our communities, impacting people, and and
uh and and and getting understanding what that means in
the short term. In the long term is uh, it
is really critical uh to protecting ourselves, but but also
(05:52):
protecting our communities in general. So for me, it's also
very personal because I work in this arena, have worked
in this arena for the past two decades focused on
climate change issues both internationally and within the US in
different parts of the US, and in that work, it
(06:13):
becomes quickly clear that there are just a whole range
of things that we have to think about when it
comes to these extremes. So it just makes for perfect
time for us to be able to talk about some
of these issues.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Yes, you mentioned the devastating effects. You mentioned communities being ravaged,
and how you're personally involved in the work, and I
want to I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge
all the human cost and the personal effect that they're
(06:52):
experiencing directly that us in northern California, we've definitely had
our fair share of fires, and so we we can
relate on some level. But I was thinking, if that
were me in the Palisades and the Eaton fire, what
would I grab? Would I be thinking? What emotions would come?
(07:14):
And so I was just I want to just have
a moment of silence, just to think about all the
humans that are affected, the pets, homes, significant items lost,
Just a moment of silence for all the loss and
the grief and the lives devastated by the fires in
La So just a moment of silence with me, please
(07:42):
thank you. As a mental health professional, you know this
would be considered a traumatic event. The scale of loss
would be considered traumatizing and would leave some lasting invisible scars,
maybe visible scars. So I just thank you for honoring
(08:03):
the people that are directly affected and us we're taking
a stance of how this happened. What are what are
the thoughts and the emotions that go through people's minds
when any community, not just l A, but where l
A is the most recent tragedy. What happens when a
(08:25):
natural hazard such as a flutter wildfire impacts the community
on a on a human level.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
Yeah, thank you for that, Kamika. And it really is
important to acknowledge the the the pain, the trauma uh
that communities endure, but to kind of set help us
kind of walk through that path. Let's think of what
happens when when when an event is coming. So if
(08:55):
you live in in places like California, you've you've you
you've understood for a long time that we have a
set of hazards that climate hazards, extremes, wildfire, floods, droughts
that impact your area. And so in the long term,
you would have been preparing you you'd maintain the shrubs
(09:16):
around your home, you would have perhaps purchase insurance, there
would be various actions. Your home would be built with
certain code considerations, there'd be certain actions that you would
consider to prepare yourself. And then absolutely and and and
initially from the prevention standpoint, but then when when the
(09:40):
event is is imminent. For example, we see on on
on UH in the news, in the in the various
sources of information apps, local news stations, that there's a
fire that that potentially could impact your area. At that
point you get into kind of that act. Hey, let
(10:01):
me monitor the situation. Is it time for me to
go to unpack? What do I need to pick up
and pack? There's a lot of anxiety that is associated
with that whole preparing for an imminent event.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
Yes, and so limbo right, because the state or the
departments involved for prevention and safety say do this X,
Y and z, and then you get to decide you're
supposed to follow X, Y and z. But some people
like are in limbo about what do I do because
there's it's not that simple to just follow direct orders.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
Absolutely, and so there's a whole range of emotions that
you've got to go through with that. If it's a
fire in your neighborhood or a flat imminent in your region,
you're generally operating at a very high level of stress
for a long time, even before the event happens. And
then the event happens, and say your home is damaged
(10:59):
or may not have been damage, You've got to deal
with the reality of that loss. In some of these instances,
we're talking about life loss, talking about loss or damage
to property. You've got to deal with with with that,
that set of emotions. Yeah, And at the same time
(11:19):
you're dealing with it, you've got to look around your
broader neighborhood and your house may have been spared, your
neighbor's house has been completely destroyed. Even if your house
is completely spared, you're still having to deal with a
neighborhood that has changed.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
There's loss there.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Imagine living in the in the Palisades and having all
the homes around you devastated and yours being the only
standing house. You still don't have a neighborhood to live
in because it's everything is gone.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
So you're talking about that, you're talking about the the
external reality and as I and I was referring to
the internal reality of when trauma happens, when a tragedy happens,
the stress response and the brain is designed to protect
us with fight, light, knees, fond responses. And I'll just
take this minute to encourage everyone to know how they
(12:15):
typically or what tendencies they have when they respond to stress,
because not only you have to deal with the reality
of what has happened on the outside, there's a whole
lot of stuff going on inside the body, inside the brain,
inside the mind, heart, and just how you how you respond,
how you react to stress. So I just want to
(12:36):
put that out there too. So there's the reality of
the outside world and the ourt inner world.
Speaker 5 (12:42):
And absolutely spot on. So there's stuff going on inside.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
But often we we we start with the initial realization
of the physical loss. Physical loss of community is going
to impose a certain set of emotions on you. If
you've lost friends, you've you've lost you've lost neighbors, That
itself is a source of trauma, and that's impacting you.
(13:11):
It's impacting your neighbors, it's impacting the first responders, yes,
who have to show up and and and and and
help to either put out the fires, help to clean
out of it in the event of a flood. Absolutely,
And it's it's impacting the planners who for a long
(13:35):
time have been preparing for these types of events and
suddenly recognizing that some of their worst fears have been realized.
And in effect, even though they had knowledge that this
type of event could happen, that they failed to prevent it. Yes,
So the long term from that that that you're referring
(13:57):
to follows that initial set of trauma, that initial trauma
of of loss of local loss, perhaps for yourself, of
communal loss, of loss of relationships, and and and and
that that long term trauma is significant. And think about,
for example, the Palisades region that was actually a fire
(14:22):
there four years ago, a much smaller fire burned a
lover one thousand, thousand, three hundred acres compared to this
one that burned close to twenty five thousand acres. So
there was a fire within that same region. So these
folks have experienced the whole range of emotions again, and
(14:45):
and and and and after. It's that that repeated trauma
has long term impacts, that repeated trauma happens. For me
as a practitioner, I feel it, and I'm I'm along
a plan as a climate scientist, and I'm uh involved
a lot in helping communities plan for the long term.
(15:07):
I'm also a call upon to support response emergency response activities.
So I've lived in both worlds of the responder and
and obviously as a as as in my private life,
I've also experienced different disasters. But it's uh, it's it's
(15:28):
it's significant how that repeated the traumatization happens even when
you're not involved in a direct event. So even the
palacetids fire, I was, I was not physically involved in
that incident. I was not physically had I live in
northern California. This happened in southern California. But I still feel,
(15:50):
uh go through that whole feeling the pain of all
the stages of of of of that event.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Through all that.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
As for watching it on TV too, right, that's who
are taking in the news and taking in the coverage
and reading about it daily and keeping track of the
updates and the acreage and the percent the percentage contained.
Are you saying that because it's describing secondary trauma or
vicarious trauma, even though we weren't directly there, but we
(16:20):
were indirectly affected, just like the first responders weren't directly there,
but they are impacted because they're helping the ones who
were directly affected. Is that along the same lines as
secondary vicarious trauma?
Speaker 5 (16:35):
And I'll rely on you for the correct descriptions in
terms of the psychological the language of psychology.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
But that's what it comes.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
But absolutely, it is a trauma that you feel after
the event, even if you're not directly connected to the event,
just by knowing what it felt like, you go through
it every time you see it happening, whether to somebody else,
to your neighbors far away, you still go through that
(17:08):
whole cycle again, of of of feeling feeling uh the
set of beings and in fact, within the the climate
and environmental communities, terms have begun to emerge. Eco anxiety
climate trauma are some of the terms that we use
to describe this the sense of UH having to relive
(17:32):
uh this trauma over and over again.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
Over and over again. You said eco anxiety and climate trauma.
Speaker 5 (17:40):
Right, are two of the terms. I'm sure there are
plan many others, but but those are two that I'm
particularly familiar with. And eco anxiety, uh happens. It has
a broader connotation in the sense that it it's a
sense of impending doom that we're destroying the the environment,
(18:02):
the environment, that the ecosystem that allows us to live
on Earth, that natural ecosystem that we have, that we
are destroying it. And and so every time that action
is taken that adversely impacts the environment, that that anxiety
(18:23):
is felt again. And sometimes it is climate and and
and sometimes it is not. But but it's still a
repeating uh sorry, if you phone going off, you.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
What you're describing The kids that I've had in my
office that can't seem to focus or that can't seem
to get out of this despair and hopelessness state emotional
state because they're because they're inundated with the news of
disasters and the climate crisis, and they have it's affected
(18:57):
their mental health to the point of, you know, it's
hard for them to function. It's their their experiencing impairment.
And I've had so I've had some teens who are
deep feelers or highly sensitive and who really care about
our our our home planet Earth, and who are affected
on a great level. I would just want to normalize
(19:17):
that that if you're feeling that way, that it's you're
not alone in feeling eco eco anxiety, eco anxiety and
climate trauma. And I was wondering if you can harken
back to a time when you went through your own experience,
because I was thinking about Hurricane Andrew in the eighties
in Mississippi is what I remember. One example, do you
(19:40):
have one would you like to share? Do you feel
comfortable sharing one of your experiences?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Absolutely?
Speaker 5 (19:46):
And if you don't mind, I would actually shad too
because Katrina was was was a significant event for me
at that point.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
We lived in Baton.
Speaker 5 (19:59):
Rouge, and uh and and.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
And actually.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
I was married in Baton Rouge just before Katrina and
so and and and left on a on a trip
and and and uh and and for kind of a
week after Katrina, it felt like I had lost my
spouse because I could not contact I could not get
(20:27):
in contact with the phone lines were down, and and
it took a long time before we were able to
re establish a connection. And I had family all over
essentially calling me trying to figure out what was what
was going on. As a as as a as a
(20:47):
as a practice.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
No.
Speaker 5 (20:48):
Obviously, watching the response both of the the the federal
government as well as a community response to to Katrina,
it was disappointing for me.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
It was a personal essentially a low point in in
in in.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
My careers as recognizing that that our governments were not
going to be able to protect us through those types
of events, and and and especially recognizing on the scale
of of of of uh, look at climate models and
(21:27):
things like that, that these types of events would happen
in the future and perhaps at the larger scale mm
hmm uh. It really instilled in me the idea that
you've got to do all that you can in the
prevention mode. Once the event has happened, you really cannot
cannot cannot prevent it, cannot prevent the damage, cannot prevent
(21:51):
the the tramatic injury that's going to that's going to occur.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
I imagine prevention wasn't on your mind as a newly.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Certainly certainly not prevention of that kind.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
Oh yeah, So what was the story that you experienced?
Speaker 5 (22:14):
Absolutely? And the second example that I would give would
be just a more recent one. In twenty twenty three,
California had an extremely wet year where a series of
what we call atmospheric river events brought a lot of
precipitation throughout the state. We had record snowpacks, particularly in
(22:37):
the central and southern Sierras, and for a long time,
the risk, the threat of flooding was was in the air,
and so I participated in that in the emergency response
activities related to to to those lads, and and for me,
(22:58):
what was striking about out that was because this event
unfolded over a really long time, was five or six
months of continuously watching for the risk of extreme flooding,
as different storms were coming, as snowpack was building up,
as a little incidents would occur all over the state. Essentially,
(23:24):
as in the role of a first responder, we were
active and for almost five almost continuous months during the
early part of that year.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
That's extremely difficult.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
Recalled that the Emergency Operations Center for the state essentially
opens twenty four hours when there's a there's an event
like that, when there's a threat of that nature.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
And so what.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
Became clear is that these extreme long events and burnout
first responders. I have some colleagues that said they would
not do this job again because they could not handle
the stress of being on for that extended period of time.
Even Colice that that, I mean some quite those that
(24:17):
were not inclined to quit still felt that they had
to deal with extreme exhaustion. Took a long time to
recover from that. And then again, if you begin to
project that out and and think we're entering into a
period what we're going to see more of these types
(24:38):
of events, and then the nature of the trauma essentially
begins to begains to multiplayer and it's and it's effects.
This is effects on first responders, on planners, on people
whose job is to help us manage through those crises.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
So you said twenty four hours a day for five
months and recording and noting and watching and you know, preparing.
So just a NonStop hyper vigilants.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Absolutely and and and I'm not saying that people had
to work plenty for us NonStop. I mean there's the cycle.
There are folks that are rotating in and out. But
when you're in the middle of an emergency as a
first responder, even the even if you're not personally on
(25:31):
the job, you're not personally on that phone, you still
cannot mentally disconnect you're still monitoring what's happening, You're still
you're still trying to fully understand the situation. You're still
it's it's it's difficulty near impossible to to turn off.
(25:53):
And so those those extremely complex emergencies, as we there's
some times term or long term engagements of that nature
really really put a toll on on on on first responders,
but I imagine on local communities as well as they
have to deal with with with these kinds of events.
(26:16):
And and what's in a sense challenging is uh this
research that's emerging that's studying to show that when we
look at an event like the floods of UH and
and the research actually started with hurricanes.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
The study that I have my story to tell you
about hurricane and absolutely go ahead. It was we lived
in Mississippi on the Gulf coast and uh my mom
and dad were monitoring, watching the news, and we got
the word that we have to evacuate, and we boarded
(26:56):
up our windows and packed up and we drove I
think we drove north away from the away from the coast,
and evacuated to Jackson, a city, the capital city of Mississippi.
And when we got back to past Christian. The small city,
the small coastal city where we lived is Past Christian, Gulfport, Biloxi,
(27:20):
those areas the house was almost recognized, unrecognizable, and our
home wasn't this safe place anymore and lasts everywhere, and
just I think that left an image in my mind
of this is what happened can happen to your your
safe space, This is what can happen to your your sanctuary,
(27:42):
your your home. And to this day, this was forty
years ago. To this day, it's hard for me to
sleep during storms or during thunder and lightning, and it's
hard for me to sleep when there's like a heavy
rain because I'm reminded of Hurricane Andrew, and you were
talking about the psychological the lasting effects, like when we're
(28:04):
experiencings either or over and over and over. It's not
just a one and done and you can't leave the
trauma like in a little box, compartmentalize or like where
you're saying about the first responders leaving work at work,
like it's part of you, it's part of your experience.
And now, what are some of the lasting consequences of
(28:26):
the people in the Palisades fire and the eaten fire.
What are some things that or what have your have
your studies kind of revealed what are the lasting effects
of experiencing a trauma, either directly or indirectly caused by
natural disasters.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
So as you talk, you described your own experience.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
With that Hurricane Andrew.
Speaker 5 (28:51):
Now now trying to imagine that Hurricane Andrew impacted a
really large area, really large of the of the southeastern
uh you us now imagine that over the period, over
the course of I don't know, the past fifty years,
all the different hurricanes that have impacted that region. So
(29:12):
study was performed to try to assess what some of
those long term impacts of hurricanes were. And one of
the shocking briss they found was that often we measure
the initial damage of hurricanes. We measure the initial depths
(29:37):
in hurricanes, the fatalities, and then we leave it that
when people go into the process of reconstruction, and we
essentially stopped tracking those fatalities. But these long term studies
have shown that over the ten to fifteenth period following
(29:59):
each of those major hurricanes, that the fatalities in the
impacted areas went up. The number of fatalities in those
areas went up. Now, this is coming from the disaster
management community, so they have not fully gone into that
process of trying to figure out exactly why, but all
(30:20):
the fatality counting all courses of fatalities went up. This
is this is this is critical because the types of
stress responses that you describe could easily be driving these
additional deaths. And the number of death in the long
term far far exceeded the initial deaths.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
And so the the the trauma is is real, the
impacts are lasting, the impacts can actually lead to additional deaths.
And in fact, we are studying there are few studies
that have started and I'm talking about these studies that
coming out probably in the last three to four months,
and and and there's been a couple now that have
(31:06):
been published on floods as well, and and we're actually
starting to look at that in our own work. And
I haven't seen one on wildfires, but I would not
be surprised if if if studies started to follow that
with wildfires. Actually, the expectations would be that some of
(31:27):
the impacts would would be health impacts directly related to
smoke inhalation and and and and that, but in addition,
stress and and the and the long term impacts of
stress are very real, and so those are some of Yeah,
(31:47):
you've got to take care of that that trauma otherwise
it can lead to long term consequences and even death.
And so recognizing this UH has been a bigger harm
moment for us. I also want to just point out
on the global scale, when it comes to climate change,
the impacts are even more dramatic because every child growing
(32:11):
up now knows that there are the climate is changing,
that there are real consequences for that. And they've described
the scale of climate trauma, particularly in young people. There
was one study that found over forty percent of kids
who were dealing with some form of drama related to
(32:33):
climate related to climate issues.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
That's staggering.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
It is you just reminded me of that. There was
a call for counselors in my professional organization to go
and help out provide some grief counseling. Lost counseling be
a safe space for kids to process the losses from
a wildfire. I don't remember which one, we've had so
many in California, but I distinctly remember the young man
(33:04):
was about seven or eight years old, but he was
talking about his favorite, his favorite video game console that
he he he told me about his games, how he
would play with his friends and his family. He would
tell me all the things that he was going to
miss about it. And and in my adult mind, I
(33:24):
was like, you're gonna miss a toy or a game
that much? And to him it was like his whole
world had fallen apart. And that really stuck with me.
How vividly detailed he was about how sentimental, how significant
the game was for him and his life and the
(33:45):
loss that impacted him.
Speaker 5 (33:47):
And and and you referred earlier in the show to
UH to the to the four different types of responses
UH to to traumatic events and and different ones of
us UH adopt different ones. Some people want to fight back,
want to fight against all the forces that are the
evil forces that are causing all of the Some people,
(34:10):
UH just want to run away from the issue. Some
people just don't know what they do. Some people want
to appease themselves the forming and so the different responses
and and different the different paths that people choose UH
can be significant. And and UH folks that interpret this
(34:34):
on a on a on a larger kind of global scale,
I think.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
The the the.
Speaker 5 (34:39):
They feel like, I mean, we've our responses as a
as a as a global community, as as the United
States at different points has been different. Initially, when climate
change issues that are coming up, the clear dominant response
was fight, no, climate is not real. Now those debates,
(35:03):
those debates have largely disappeared from from the from the
from the public domain, at least, it doesn't seem to
occur with any intensity.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Right now that you can you can't change something that
you're not willing to acknowledge or accept.
Speaker 5 (35:21):
Well, you can, you can, you can deny it, and
and at a certain point it takes. It takes i
would say, a whole lot of will power to start
denying it once you start seeing the effects.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
On on on on you.
Speaker 5 (35:37):
Yourself, because you whether it's a loss of your of
of of your neighborhood farm, it's I mean, areas are
conservative as well as liberal areas of of of this
country have experienced extreme events that of a scale that
that is far beyond the kinds of things that that
(35:58):
we used to see. Noah tracks how many of these
extreme events there are when they started tracking this. Right
so NOWA is the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is
the organization that tracks weather events. The National Weather Services
(36:21):
are part of NOAH Ocean Marine Science and all of that.
When they started tracking these types of extreme events, they
were looking at four or five extreme events that cost
a million dollars worth of damage a year. Last year
there were twenty seven such events that cost a billion
(36:44):
dollars of damage.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
Are you talking about the United States or globally.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Not globally within the US?
Speaker 4 (36:50):
Just the US? Okay, got it?
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Just within the US.
Speaker 5 (36:52):
The combination of floods, severe storms, droughts, winter storms, hurricanes, Yeah,
wildfires that cost a billion dollars worth of damage billion
with a B, with a B that statistic distract. Yeah,
the number is tracted every year. And initially they were
(37:15):
talking about four, and now we're talking about on the
order of in the twenties. Even if you account for
kind of the change in the in the value of
the dollar, the purchasing power of the dollar, you're still
talking about easily twenty three events if you if you
normalize them to a common year. And so the number
(37:36):
of these events has grown drastically, and so now the
phase in which our kind of global response to climate
issues is more described as what's a collective dissociation is
the term that is that is used in which.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
That one people like numb out. Every time a story
comes in, it's like, oh, another one, and it's just
like normal.
Speaker 5 (38:02):
Pretty much pretty much. And it's a it's it's a
mechanism to try to protect ourselves. It's a false mechanism,
but it's a mechanism. That's what we essentially adopt, like, oh, yeah,
it's a bigger issue than I can deal with, so
now let me just do something else. And and it
(38:22):
doesn't it our pain doesn't go away.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
We don't.
Speaker 5 (38:26):
We don't, we don't find ways to to it really
are not resolving the issue. And so the the I
guess my, my, my overall kind of counsel to people is, uh,
you've got to first recognize that you're dealing with this
(38:46):
type of trauma, acknowledge that it's it's a real thing,
and uh kind of speak up, speak up about it.
Speaking up is part of you at nolagement, but it's
also it also allows you to have a conversation broadly with.
Speaker 4 (39:07):
What are you talking about? Processing it and talking.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
About it, Well, it starts with processing it, Okay, Advocacy
comes further down the line, but it starts with processing it.
When when when folks are not willing to have that conversation,
you're basically carrying the trauma on within yourself and essentially
(39:31):
trying to pretend that it doesn't exist talking about it.
Having a show with Kamika UH is a great way
for us to have this conversation UH in a in
a in a public way to describe the range of
You've described some of the things that you've experienced and
the impressions that they made on you. I've talked about mine.
(39:54):
I'm pretty sure there's lots of people listening to who
are dealing with or have have similar experiences.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
And is it dramatic way once you've experienced it, you're like,
you're you're never the same, thinking of the ripple effects
through the community and the nation and the world. Is
that too dramatic a statement that once you experienced something
like that, you're never the same.
Speaker 5 (40:17):
So again, this is why I cread carefully because I
am I am not by any means a trained psychologists.
I can tell you that for me, it's changed my
perspective on on on how I look at governments and
the role of governments, on how I look at kind
(40:41):
of how I prepare myself, what I should be prepared
to rely on. I know I cannot outside help is
not coming. It may come in in in various forms, but.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
It really.
Speaker 5 (41:00):
That you've got to be prepared to deal with those
types of situations when they occur, relying on resources that
that you control. You cannot control the externals, the external forces,
but having identifiable resources that you can control, that's that's key.
(41:22):
You shouldn't try to essentially manage to those situations without it.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
You're talking about the recovery process, right, the recovery of
once you've experienced something, And maybe that was like too
dramatic and like as far as absolutes, you'll never be
the same, maybe that is, but you you will be
changed and how you But you don't have to stay stuck.
You don't have to. You can recover. But you said
by speaking up, and you said by preparing, what else.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Can they do? The advocacy pat.
Speaker 5 (41:53):
So these are these are large global problems, and what
what I don't want people to do is to take
it upon themselves that, oh, no, I have to resolve everything,
or I have to resolve the issue all by myself.
Preparedness is to ensure that that you have at least
(42:16):
a bare minimum to get by. But at the same time,
policy changes are required. This is this is not a
problem that can be resolved essentially by.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
By an individual.
Speaker 5 (42:30):
By individual action alone, I can I can do what
I can to reduce my admissions. That alone is not
going to resolve the issue. It's going to take governments,
is going to take society taking a different stance about
about how we view economic development, about how we how
we view our sources of energy.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
It's going to take.
Speaker 5 (42:56):
How we trade with other nations, how we have heard
the expression used in some places, how we colonize the earth.
We cannot as UH assume that we can grab all
the resources that we that we want, that we that
we're able to UH build these massive businesses, and as
(43:18):
a result of doing all of that, that we can
ignore everything that's happening around the environment.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
So advocacy UH.
Speaker 5 (43:26):
In moving for change, in policy, in moving for changing
the environment is important and has a has a critical
role to play, and so and and and essentially reclaim
power for yourself by being able to be at the
forefront elections matter. Pay attention to to to candidates and
(43:48):
and and what they're saying about these issues. But but
also form communities because this is.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Not an issue that you are going to resolve alone.
Speaker 5 (43:58):
Work with others, the types of engagement in which we
talk about the issues.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Absolutely get involved.
Speaker 5 (44:06):
Don't sit back and and and and expect that somehow
these are going to get resolved right others or that
they are insurmountable.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Uh. They we can make change if.
Speaker 5 (44:19):
We step up together, make our voices heard loudly enough
that we become a force for change.
Speaker 4 (44:27):
Yes, And that's a that's a hopeful note to wrap
up on because we started out talking about the tragedy
and the trauma of things that we can have natural
disasters that we cannot control and the effects are devastating.
But what I've taken away is how we can prepare,
(44:47):
how we can process, how we can prevent, how we
can recover, and how we can affect change at the
micro level and the macro level where the where the
laws are being made and where the changes are Because
you're right, you can't take take take, take take from
the planet and expect there to be no consequences.
Speaker 5 (45:07):
And so and if you need mental health, mental health
professionals uh out there and can can help you guide
you through that process. Obviously it is one, but here
uh uh regular host is also another. U can help
you through this process.
Speaker 4 (45:28):
Doctor Sante. I want to thank you for your profession
I want to thank you for your service. I want
to thank you for your research. I want to thank
you for the data and the putting a face on
the human effects of natural disasters. It's been a pleasure
talking with you.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
Always a pleasure talking to you.
Speaker 4 (45:47):
And I'll close by saying that be sure to tune
in too. It's your voice next Wednesday at a pm
Eastern Time on W four c Y dot com or
talk for TV. May we all have riching conversations and
diversity this week. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Thank you. Logic. Let's beech logic. Let's speech of the
in logic. Let's speech in logic. Let's beach all the
(46:24):
in logic.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Let's fitch a logic.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Let's beech all the
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