June 26, 2024 • 52 mins
Dr. Liz Thach MW is the 7th woman in the USA and first in California to become a Master of Wine (May 2011). She has a PhD in Human Resource Development. Dr. Thach has received more than 30 awards and accolades, presented at more than a 100 conferences, published more than 200 articles and written nine books on wine topics. At Sonoma State University she taught management and wine business classes for 23 years. Since August 2023 she has served as the President of the Wine Market Council.
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The Connected Table is broadcast live Wednesdays at 2PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
The Connected Table Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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FOURCY Radio. Welcome to the ConnectedTable Live. We're your hosts, Melanie
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Young and David Ransom. You're insatiablycurious culinary couple. We travel the world
to meet people, taste wines,and visit destinations to bring you our discoveries,
and we love sharing the stories ofthe people and places we meet with
you, our listeners around the world. It's beautiful day in June and Steamy's
sultry New Orleans and we're excited.So we have a couple of sub series
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in the Connected Table podcast, whichcan be heard on over sixty podcast channels.
After today's live show, we havea series called The Masters of Wine.
We have behind the byline interviewing notablejournalists. And then we have our
based program and focus, which isglobal leaders and thought leaders in the world
of wine, food, spirits andhospitality. Well, today's guest come is
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the trifecta. She hits all threeof those. We have wanted to have
her as a guest for a while. We finally connected through after I personally
attended some webinars from the Wine MarketCouncil, which she is currently president of.
We're talking today with doctor Liz Tosh. She's a Master of Wine and
has a PhD and as a professor. Listen to this nutshell resume. She's
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received more than thirty awards and accolades, presented it more than one hundred conferences
as a speaker, published more thantwo hundred articles as a journalist, written
nine books. Throughout her industry careerand wine she has visited almost all of
the world's wine regions and over seventyfive countries and since on August twenty twenty
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three, she serves as the presidentof the Wine Market Council, a very
interesting nonprofit organization that does a lotof research and presents data on trends and
important Basically, if you're anyone who'sin the business of producing, buying,
selling, or engaging with customers aboutbuying your wine, you want to become
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a member because you will get somepretty important research to help you. And
there's a lot going on in thisindustry, as we know. Should we
say that we that she likes tokeep her finger on the pulse of the
wine instry and her eye on consumertrends of behaviors and other developments that impact
the president and future of wine.And we're delighted that she's taken time out
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of her busy writing, talking,traveling, and speaking schedule to join us
today, doctor Liz Tosh. Welcome, Thank you so much, and it's
a pleasure to be here. Well, we're certainly happy to have you on
the show. It's been we startedour MW series and I think you kind
of fall into that category. Well, she isn't today. Yeah, So
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we started that series about a yearago and somehow we've seemed to only have
interviewed female MW's Melanie. Well,I think that's really great being someone who
supports women And just to point thatout. Fun fact about Liz, and
we're going to call you Liz versusdoctor Tosh. She's the second woman in
the United States and the first inCalifornia to become a Master of Wine in
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May of twenty eleven. But asnoted before, you actually have a whole
nother academic career on. But wealways like to start the show, Liz
with your upbringing, and we readthat you're a fifth generation California But you
actually grew up elsewhere, right,Yes, born in California, but when
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I was three, we moved,So I was in South Dakota for five
years, and then Idaho and NewMexico through my high school years before coming
back to California and college. Soyeah, I actually grew up without wine
at the table. Didn't actually knowthat much about it, except for,
you know, when I visited mygrandparents in California. So it was not
something that I originally thought I wasgoing to do. But I did fall
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in love with wine when I didgo to college, and I went to
the Napa Valley like a lot ofpeople do in college, and just fell
madly in love with the vineyards,the stories, the history, the legacy,
and just the pleasure that wine bringsin terms of connecting with people and
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food and history. It's interesting becauseI have always won. I went to
Napa on my pilgrimage as well whenI wanted to start immersing in wine and
is transformative. I actually want togo to South Dakota and Idaho now because
hadn't been to that part of thecountry. And you know, South Dakota
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they both have wineries. In fact, I just got back from Idaho where
I judge in the Idaho Wine Competition, and you know, they've got over
eighty wineries in Idaho now and they'rereally it's a growing industry and they're doing
well. Well. That's good toknow. Yeah, I think wine's actually
made in all fifty states now,yeah technically, yeah, yeah, they
actually Actually I'm from Tennessee. Listin Tennessee has a new ava. I
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can't wait to go check it out, the Cumberland Plateau. Who knows what
they're making, but I'm going togo check it out because that's what we
like to do. Like you,because you're you're you're curious. So what
were your early interests back before?Because you have went into academics at the
what we call the high level becauseyou're a PhD. What were your early
interest in dreams as a young girl. Yeah, well, I always enjoyed
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writing, so writing and reading,so that's probably why I've written the nine
books and lots of articles. Andso I studied English in college and then
later went on got a master's inbusiness and my PhD is in human resource
management. So but yeah, Iwanted to write, and you know,
writing is a great skill to have, especially in business, and so it
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did me well. So I wasten years actually working for large fortune five
hundred companies in different states like Texasand Colorado. And then long term,
though I knew I wanted to bea professor someday, I just didn't do
it for a while, and soit was a second career, and I
got a job at Snowma State University, right in the heart of wine country,
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you know, thirty minutes from Napa. I live on Snowa Mountain,
and so I worked there for twentythree years teaching wine the wine MBA program,
and we also had about sort ofwine, and then I taught of
course strategy, leadership, marketing,you know, business classes as well,
and it was great. You know, anytime I go to a winery and
nap and snow, I can't helpbut bump into one of my hundreds of
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graduates working in the industry and doingwell. It's always a thrill to see
them. I love helping people achievetheir career dreams. And so the MW
was something that I also had notplanned on doing. I worshiped the MW,
so I was like, wow,I could never be like that.
And then, and at that timein California, they were all men.
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They all were men, and severalwere friends, like Peter marsh and Tim
han I, and they came tomy first book signing, which was at
Cardinell Winery in Napole Valley, andthey said, hey, Liz, you
can write about wine. Why don'tyou join the MW. And I'm like,
oh, no, oh, there'sno way. I can never be
an MW. I can't taste wellenough. And they're like, we can
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teach you to taste, but writingis more challenging, and you need to
write to past the MW. SoI embarked on that in two thousand and
six and then twenty eleven became anMW. I at the time, I
didn't know I was going to bethe first woman on the West Coast to
become an MW. And I didn'tfind out un till you know, I
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passed, and they told me,you do realize you're the first one in
California, you know, and onthe whole West Coast, a first woman
to be an MW, And sothat was that was exciting for me.
And also I was I was sohonored by the and humble. But the
state of California legislature also gave mea special award for becoming the first woman
in California to become an MW.They gave me one of their special resolutions.
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So that was I was just Iwas thrilled and I didn't know that
was going to happen. It's prettyamazing. I'm curious. You have to
write a thesis. Oh yeah,what was what was your focus? You
know, it's it's interesting. Minewas actually on gender. So I looked
at how men and women and itwas only in California. MW, like
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should have a clear clear focus foryour most research and dissertations do on how
men and women look at wine,are motivated by wine, are attracted to
wine, how they come into thecategory that different types of wine, they
like, packaging, and so forth. So that was the study. That's
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pretty interesting given the marketing challenges andtopics and focuses and debates and on and
on and on going on right nowin the industry. So I'm curious because
I have another show that targets womenover fifty, which I am, and
when I go to the store,I get pitched. We get pitched,
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David, I get pitched on wineall the time, but sometimes we get
pitched on women focus wine clearly,and I kind of get my ruffles,
my feathers ruffled a bit when Isee packaging and why that clearly targets women
that I don't feel as appropriately targetingwomen. Yes, that was actually one
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of the findings. And it's funnybecause I interviewed lots of men and women,
and then I did a survey,and then I also interviewed the brand
the people who created those brands,and some of them actually So just the
long story, stort, there isa certain segment of the population that is
attracted to that type of branding.And keep in mind, this research was
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done in twenty ten, and Ithink things have changed since then. But
a lot of the women felt,just like you, they were offended by
some of these brands, and someof the brands did not do well,
and others others did, and sowhat we see now is more. In
fact, at the end of mypaper, my conclusion was, yes,
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there is a place for some ofthese brands, but for the most part,
the safer, the safer path forwineries is to choose a gender gender
neutral position. And of course,now that was in twenty ten when I
wrote that, and now in twentytwenty four, it's it's definitely, you
know, something that we want toconsider. Whine is for everybody, and
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gender is not really you know,that's that doesn't really play, you know,
into it so much. However,we still do have more women drinking
wine than men. So it's fiftyfive female in the US compared to forty
five percent male, and that's prettymuch the same in many other countries.
There's always a few more women thatdrink wine than men. And purchasing wine
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too, I think, right,right, yeah, yeah, women drive
more. So women drive the purchasingin terms of volume. But guess who
spends more on wine? Men?Men have a tendency to when they do
go to buy a bottle of wine, they will spend more on it.
Well, we've got a lot,there's a lot to talk about in all
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these areas, because this is justan ongoing thing. Just flash forward.
So for over twenty years you wereteaching at Sonoma Stake and you continue to
teach, uh with a different collegenow online right right, I'm teaching for
Stanford Continuing Education to Justice. Oneis online business and the other is on
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food and wine pairing. And soyeah, those are online classes. They're
fun because I have students from youknow, around the world who join those
classes. The one is for creditand the other is not, So they're
they're they're more relaxed, you knowclasses. Nobody needs to have a background
in wine and just more a chanceto learn, you know. Stanford calls
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it fun and intellectual stimulating classes.Well, you know, I found we
both found it interesting that you have. You have so many facets to your
career, Liz, and you knowyou've written nine books. I've written two.
I aspired to write nine. Alot of them are about the business
of wine. Tell us what wasyour first book. I'm curious about the
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first very first book was actually calledWine a Global Business and that the reason
I wrote that one, and Iwrote it with a colleague, Tim Met.
At the time he was at Barringerin sales, and he approached me
and says, we should write abook because nobody's written one yet on this.
And he was right, because Iwas trying to teach wine business.
I started teaching at two thousands andI said, okay, fine, I'll
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teach this class. Where are mytextbooks? And they said there aren't any.
Nobody has ever written a book onwine business. And so I started
using just like articles from like winebusiness monthly magazines and pulling pieces here and
there. And finally, after threeyears, I got frustrated and I said,
forget it. I'm going to writea book. So that's how.
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That's how that first book came out. And that was in two thousand and
five. And then that's when Imet Jim and Peter and started in w
in two thousand and six. Soyeah, then that book got it got
republished again, I forget in whatyear, And so it became a textbook.
It's a textbook. It's been putinto I mean, it's not technically
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a textbook, but it's designed tobe more of a textbook. It's a
very technical book on the business ofwine. You know, writing textbooks a
good thing because they're study any money. You know, you get into calling,
you know versus you know, wewe get a lot of books sent
to us as well, wine books, and you know sometimes you know,
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we just moved was and the booksthat had to go bye bye were those
giant picture books, the technooks.It's difficult. You know, there are
wine libraries, you know, aroundthe nation, at universities that will accept
those as donations. You know,they're beautiful books. I have so many,
it into I have a whole wallof wine books. Well, we
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moved during a pandemic, so itwas nobody wanted our books. We ended
up giving three hundred books to thelocal gardener in New York library because nobody
wanted books and we moved Aga.They now have a cookbook that collection.
They should have the Melanie book bookto really but but you know, sometimes
a good solid book, particularly awine business book, is a great thing
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because you really are about the businessof wine. I mean you also write
for several hours, which I actuallyfound the fact that you find time to
do the right now that we knowhow much writing means to you. As
you know, and we know winejournalists like vines sometimes have to dig deep
in struggles to produce fruit these daysbecause the pay is so little, so
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you have to be very diversified inwhat you're doing exactly. It is really
challenging to make a mortgage and buythe food and panted electricity on a wine
writer's salary. So most of uswho are wine writers, we also have
other careers that will help pay thebills. I think we write mainly out
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of joy. I write probably anarticle a week now and I published.
I published still in Wine Business Monthly, but I published more frequently now in
Forbes and the Forbes contributor, alsoWine Spectators Can or Farm Journal in fact,
to just finishing up an article thismorning for som journal. So I
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do, I'd say one a weekan article and then the rest of the
time. I mean, I'm technicallyretired from snow and State, but then
I took on the new job asPresident of Wine Market Council, which is
which is about a halftime job.It's fifty percent of my time. But
that's a that's a paid job,right, Yes, that's okay, Well
that's good because we were one.Yeah. I mean these days where you
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know, coming from wine so justI come from the business of marketing,
public relations, and events and wine. So you know, the business of
wine is what I often write aboutas well for Wine Industry Advisor, and
I had one, and I findthe topic interesting. I mean, we
love the beauty and pleasure of wineitself and pairing it, but the business
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of wine is interesting from our mutualbackgrounds and a big topic right now.
I attended a recent webinar with theWine Market Council did addressing the problem,
you know, or as I saidto David, let's say, sometimes the
wine industry is so busy staring atits belly button and the glass is either
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half full or half empty, dependingon how you're looking at the glass,
right, Yes, m hm,And well I'm sorry, go ahead,
No said well was it the web? Was it the webinar we did called
behind the Dire Headlines? Yes,you know, the good the good news
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of that wine? Yeah, yes, Christian, the most recent one we
did, Yes, yeah, uhhuh, Yes, I agree with you.
And we were concerned because, Imean, we look at data all
day long, and we knew thatdata wasn't so bad, but it seemed
like all the wine writers were focusingon only the negative headlines, you know,
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because there's that old saying, youknow what leads leads in the news,
and you know, we watched thenews nowadays at night and it's so
depressing. I think I only watchedthe news twice twice a week now because
it just depresses me too much.And they don't report on the positive things
happening in the world, or veryrarely, and that's what was happening in
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wine. We were getting in thiscycle, this doom and gloom cycle and
throwing out all the good stuff thatwas there. So, yes, wine
sales are down in volume at belowten dollars a bottle, but the wine
value is up one hundred and sevenbillion dollars last year wine that broke all
records of it the eyes we've everhit. But nobody was talking about that
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part. They were talking about,Yeah, volumes down, and the reason
that volume is down is because theconsumer is trading us. I mean,
we need to look at what theconsumer wants. Yeah, they're not buying
as much wine, but they're spendingmore on a nicer bottle of wine,
and so that has repercussions throughout thevalue chains. So it really hurts the
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grape growers who are growing those valuegrapes and some of whom are having to
pull them out because consumers don't wantto buy that kind of wine anymore.
And then it's also hurting retailers,some retailers who are stalking a lot of
those lines and kept tell them orinventory is sitting on shelves after COVID.
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You know, we had all therestaurants and the retailers who stockpiled, well
not the restaurants, but the retailerswho stockpiled during COVID, So we were
having to dig through that. Sothe news is not as bleak as people
are saying. And indeed, wefound did our latest research that millennials who
are now mainly in their thirties,the oldest millennial is now twenty eight.
That's important to keep in mind.I'm sorry the youngest and the oldest is
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forty three. They're fine a lotof wine now that they're in their thirties
and they're more settled, and youknow, they have some you know,
probably well paying jobs. You know, they might have a house and a
mortgage and kids. They're drinking winebecause wine is a wonderful drink of moderation,
and it is something people tried intheir twenties, but they get more
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serious about it in their thirties,so this is exciting news. Yes,
gen Z is still you know,not adopting that much wine. Some of
them are, but you know alot of them are. In fact,
a lot of gen Z is notdrinking any alcohol because they're sort of part
of the sober curious movement and thisis important to them at this time in
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their lives. You know, theymay change, but that's where a lot
of them are now, not allof them. We know a lot of
gen Zs who who enjoy wine.In fact, I just did a story
in Forbes on young the young winemakers of Napa who are all like in
their you know, twenties, andyou know, they're so passionate about wine,
and their friends are passionate about wine. So we like to we like
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to remind people that the glass isyou know, definitely half full. And
and let's not get in this doomspiral because what it was doing it was
it was having repercussions. Consumers werestarting to hear, oh wow, maybe
I shouldn't drink wine because you know, it's not doing well. And and
then young people in the industry,the people I had, you know,
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been teaching they were like, Liz, is there a career for me in
this industry? It's not sounding good. All the news is so bad,
and I'm thinking, wait a minute, the news is not that well,
the news is bad, but butbut the data is good. So let's
let's actually tell the whole story here. Let's let's look at the fact.
And so that's sort of what wewere trying to do in that webinar.
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And fortunately there are a lot ofpeople who already had that data, for
example, like Jackson family and KarenDana and who sort of lad that she
and her team were the one saying, wait a minute, our wines are
selling really well. You know,what is all this stuff? What's all
this doom and gloom? And soyeah, there's a lot of there's there's
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still a lot of great news aboutwine. I don't know if you read
the New York Times yesterday and EricAsmanov article in defense of wine. I
wrote to Eric immediately and I said, this is such a beautiful piece.
I mean, he's such a greatwriter. It was so eloquently written,
but also it was very objective,you know, telling both sides of the
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story. And Eric wrote me backthis morning and said thank you so much,
you know, for the company.I read it this morning. It
was a beautiful piece in Defensive Wine. It's sad you have to use the
word defense, but you know youhave to look at history and and wine.
Wine is, you know, thepart of religion, and people were
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drinking wine instead of water back whenwater was unsafe, and and then you
know the culture. He really everybodylistening should read this uh New York Times
article in Defensive Wine by Eric Asimov, because he really wrote it in such
an incredible way. I pull hesaid, I've never consumed wine because I
imagined it was healthy, because hewas addressing the whole health thing now.
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But I don't fear it in moderation, just as I continue to do other
things that are not without risk,like drive, fly, eat me,
train in martial arts, you know, ultra processed food. I could go
on and on. Everybody ought tofeel free to make their own choices about
wine and assessing the risks. Pleasetake in its beauty, culture, history,
and joy and account because it's aculture, it's a lifestyle, and
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it is you know, it isbeing demonized. And I do come from
a health and wellness back on justfull discorder. I am a breast cancer
survivor, so Liz, when Iwas diagnosed, I had to come to
that realization in my own head.Did my lifestyle and consumption of rich wine,
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rich food and wine, was itlinked to my cancer? I don't.
At the end, I carry agene, a genetic mutation. And
I know even Monday morning quarterback.But at the end of the day,
you embrace everything in moderation, butyou don't give it up just because because
the end of the day, asI said to David before the show,
the food of the drink doesn't causethe illness. It's your it's lifestyles and
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habits and how you take care ofyourself. Yeah, and I say that
over and argantel I'm blue in theface because and some of it is genetics
too, as I mentioned, Yesone my case it was. But you
know, obesity, you know isan issue. You know, obesity is
probably the biggest thing. But Ithink people need to understand that. But
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because there's a lot of issues now, the Wine Market Council has also launched
a new data a research program becauseyou do, like the Council does several
a year, and this one ison multicultural customers. Because one of the
other takeaways that I got from thatwebinar and others I've attended is that a
big challenge is that marketers don't knowhow to speak correctly to niche audiences.
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Yes, you are correct, Yeah, and Wine Market Council does do.
We usually do three big research studiesa year on the US wine consumer.
We only focus on the US wineconsumer, and so the studies that the
topics of the studies are determined byour members. They do a survey area
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where they vote on what they wantedto focus on this year. Because you're
a nonprofit, so we're supported bytheir dues. And then we have a
research committee composed of our members andthey help us, you know, design
the service and develop the RFPs andread through all the proposals because we outsource
a lot of these two really bigcompanies that do a great job doing this
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national because we're doing this national surveys, and so the number one topic they
picked for this year was trying toattract more young adults and multiculture consumers to
wine. I've already talked about thegen Z issues. We want to understand
more about what's happening there and howwe can meet their needs. And then
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the multicultural issue is the one that'sbeen going on for years. We've never
really done a great job the wineindustry the whole in making, as you
say, and really understanding what weneed to do to communicate well with those
different segments of the population. Thegood news though, is that in the
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last few years we have made someproductress in African American and Asian American communities,
but we still are not making muchheadway in the Hispanic So we're going
to look at all three of themthough, because we definitely know we still
have work to do in all ofthose, as well as looking at that
Gen Z population and some of theyounger millennials, you know. So yeah,
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that's the big project. It's exciting. We we have picked our vendor
and it's SMA Facts and in factnext week we start, in fact this
week we're beta testing. We're startingthe shop alongs So it's this really cool
new software called eye Tracks where theygo out and they shop with people in
grocery stores and restaurants, in wineshops, you know, trying to understand
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you know what. And it's avideo, you know, using your phone
talking with with somebody in your ear, asking Okay, what wine's attracting you?
Why are you buying this one?Where are you going? What else
are you looking at? So youknow, what are you having with dinner
tonight? You know, is itgoing to be tacos or is it going
to be sushi? You know what. So that whole trying to understand how
they shop and what attracts them andwhat information they're looking for. That's the
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that's the survey that's going on rightnow, or the study, I should
say, because it's a three partstudy. And so this is the second
part, which is qualitative shop alongvideo interviews, and then we also have
the huge, large survey. Sothis is pretty exciting. I'm really excited
about this study. We have twoothers who are doing this year too,
but this is this is the bigone. I would say, well,
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yeah, I was at one ofthe Unteen Women in Wine symposiums of attendant
over the years, and there wasa Indian, a woman who's an Indian
blogger from India, and she said, no one's talking to my audience.
No one talks to my audience,and she is right, and we were
surprised. So because so in America, people from India classified as Asian,
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and so we pulled all the data. So the first part of that research
was looking at what we call aliteratary view. We're going out and grabbing
all of the research that's already beenwritten on this topic, right, because
there's a lot of there's a lotof key learnings out there, and we
don't want to be redundant, wedon't want to waste people's money. So
and one of the things we pulledwas the US Census data on Asians in
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America, and it turns out thatthe Indian people from India are huge populations,
growing fast, but also the highestincome makers of all Asians, followed
by Chinese. So this is somethingthat we're like, my goodness, and
nobody's paying any attention to this segmentof the US population and they're so important.
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So she's right, we need morepeople like her blogging about this.
Well, she's got a huge followingas a result ault of it. But
it is I that'd be like saying, uh, we we're just lumping all
Europeans together. I mean, it'sthe same thing with Asia. I know
that that's such sort of the wayit's done at this point. So but
(30:12):
you know, yeah, if somebodyhad the funding, you know, to
do a deep dive into that population. And I don't know that that's us
is a nonprofit at this point.We're not that big. We don't have
that much money. But you know, some of the larger, you know,
wine corporations might be able to dothat on their own. But it's
(30:33):
a great idea. Yeah, Idon't know. Everybody's so busy just trying
to figure out, you know,increased margins. I was also telling David
Marning one of the challenges with everything, with every everything that's beautiful is it
becomes at some point a CpG uh. And then when when wine or that
beautiful piece of fruit or anything youlove suddenly becomes just a consumer product good
(30:59):
and product you're pushing and a numbercrunch gets the tied up. Sorry big
corporations, but I'm going to saythis, When a number crunter gets behind
it and no longer is talking aboutthe story and the authenticity and the history,
and it's just pushing it based onunits, the joy is gone for
a lot of consumers, including me. And I'm not a gen X,
(31:19):
but that's a problem. Also whenyou no longer treat the product because of
its beauty and history and sense ofplace and culture, and it's just a
unit. Well, and I thinkthat's what Eric Asmov was addressing a news
article this week exactly, is thatthe history of wine and the joy of
drinking wine is unlike any other productout there, and that you need to
(31:41):
embrace that to and embrace one.But the wine salesperson, whose entire salary
depends on moving units and booking shelves, it's such a whole different thing,
right, Yeah. I always usedto teach that there's two worlds of wine.
There's the commodity world, which you'retalking about, right, which is
important. I mean, seventy percentof the wine sold around the world is
(32:01):
like under ten dollars a bottle andfits into that commodity world, and it's
all about branding. And there's somebeautiful, delicious wines in that category.
I bring seven nineteen nine bottles ofwine once away because some of them are
just gorgeous. But then there's theother world of wine, which we call
the Tehois world, or the worldof the soil, the world of the
(32:23):
dirt, the world of the artists, the world of the crafts person,
and that part of the wine worldis actually doing quite well. In fact,
I talked to a lot of thoselittle growers and artists and wineries around
napens Andoma. You know, they'remaking less than five thousand cases. They're
(32:44):
hands selling everything through their tasting roomsor their wine clubs or in fine wine
shops and fine restaurants, and they'retelling the story. And they're mainly farming
organically and sustainably for sure, ifnot organic, and they're so passionate about
what they do, and they're actuallypart of the story that's making a decent
(33:05):
amount of money. Their margins aregood. I mean, I just talked
to one who's like, I waslike, aren't you worried about the gloomy
headlines? And he's like, he'stalking about my shelves. We're up seventeen
percent last year, my wife.You know. So there's a lot of
those tiny, little family run wineriesand yeah, they're not in the big
grocery stores because they don't make enoughwine to be but they're they're doing well
(33:30):
and they're thriving, and you know, every once in a while they get
bought by a big brand and turnedinto a large you know, expanded and
they move into that other world,the commodity world. But both worlds are
important in wine, and so Ijust like to I found it was very
(33:51):
helpful when I was teaching my studentsthat there are these two worlds of wine.
You need to decide which one youwant to work in. And you
know, some of the large corporationswork in both, you know, and
there and they brand and they marketand they in completely different ways. They
sell in different channels, but they'reboth important. Well, we understand you
(34:13):
make a little wine you live inin Cinema Mountains, Where exactly do you
live in Sonoma and tell us aboutthe little bit of wine you're making.
So I actually live five hundred feetup from sea level on Sonoma Mountains for
about that far up up on thehill, and it's in the Pedal in
the Gap part of the Sonoma County. So it's so we used to be
(34:35):
Sonoma Coast, and then you know, Sonoma Coast is now being sort of
broken up into smaller ada, Sowe became the pedalum the Gap. And
I'm trying to remember what year itwas. It wasn't that long ago I
was on. Yeah, And sowe specialize in cool climate Pinot, Chardonnay
(34:57):
and Sarah. And the reason isis because it's called the kind of the
gap, because there's a gap inthe mountains right near Petaluma where the ocean
rushes in and the winds and thecold, and so we get these winds
it's called wind to wine. Weget these winds every afternoon that chill everything
down. Not only do they keepthings cooler, which you know and Chardonay
love cool cooler fligements, but theyalso toughen up the grape skins, especially
(35:24):
around our the panos. And sowere you create here more of a darker
fruit, I sort of say aPomard style if we if we look at
Burgundia, it's a bigger, moremuscular style with high acidity, but more
black cherry, more garich, morecomplex herb notes. They're wonderful food wines,
(35:49):
and there's not that many. There'snot that many wineries here. I
think there's maybe I don't know twentynow in this part of the Pedaluma Gap.
So I'm actually just growing for fun. I'm what's called hobby wine makers.
So I have a fourth of anacre of peanut noire grapes and they
do very well. Here. It'slike this region was just designed. Pinal
loves to be here to shard mayand I make rose pean and ore,
(36:15):
and I make red pean and orefrom the vineyard. My neighbors helped me
harvest it. I used to havemy students help me and we'd have a
big harvest party and barbecue afterwards.And I only make I have one hundred
and ten bines and I make onehundred and ten bottles, so it's a
very small production, and I giveit all away. I give it some
(36:37):
way to friends and family because it'syeah, I'm not in the business to
sell it. I'm just in thebusiness to enjoy the process. And it
actually helped me planting that vineyard Iplanted in two thousand and three, and
then learning to make wine. Ithelped me pass the MW dam because I
made every single mistake you can possiblymake, and I learned from it.
So, you know, dealing withyou know, powdery meld, dealing with
(37:00):
you know, raccoon eating on mygrades, dealing with you know v a
in the in my cellar which isin my garage, and you know,
just just all of these issues youcan get when you're when you're a home
wine maker. I did take someclasses at UC Davis on wine making,
and I took viticulture classes at theCenter Roads of JC to learn how to
(37:21):
do all that stuff. But butthere's nothing like actually doing it that really
teach you about about the complexities ofthe whole great growing wine making world.
It's a very interesting process to beinvolved in. Yeah, and have you
two done harvested? Well, myfamily under winery in New York State for
(37:44):
many years, so I actually comefor a low wine business. It was
an award winning winery. I'm justgoing to add in that's how we met.
So his family owned Revendel. Itwas an award winning winery when the
governors I remember that. Yeah,we were. We were the top award
winning winery in New York for probablytwenty years, and then divested ourselves of
(38:04):
it in two thousand and eight.But yeah, it was a good run.
Loved it, David. That's howwe met, and it was a
trific end. But the nice thingis we still have bottles of what their
Rivendll's fabulous were low and Tier ofthe Clouds, which was the sweet wine.
It was ice wine, right,Yeah, it was late harvest just
fabulous. So we are blessed.When we moved to New Orleans, and
(38:27):
we moved from New York, storedthe wine for four years and lived on
the road and on and and wecan go on. But the wine,
one hundred and something cases of winethat were stored in New York just arrived
what last week or week ago,and we're slowly opening up these wines that
we've missed from the many years thatwe've worked in wine. My father was
an educator. He was a CPAby business, and in Tennessee in the
(38:52):
seventies started collecting and created a wineappreciation program and taught it for thirty five
years. So I come from theeducation and fighting business. Yeah. Well,
what a perfect couple you made side. Plus you've got the education and
writing side. Yeah. So that'swhat brought us together. Living in New
(39:15):
Orleans. It's such a fun city, great food. New Orleans is a
phenomenal city. We wish more wineproducers would come here, particularly are Italian
friends, because there's a strong Sicilianand Italian American presence. Although the Wine
Spectator did come here with their grandthey did in April. They did,
and we were great for that,right and then we also we attended a
(39:37):
tasting at a well known wine storehere called Martin's Wine Cellar, probably the
best retailer in the city. Andthey actually had a tasting of German and
Austrian producers and the producers were allin town for it about a week ago.
Yeah, so we went to that. So we're here to help elevate,
engage and educate and bring more wineawareness here. There's some wonderful wine
(39:59):
bars. You know what the biggestchallenges is making sure that we know how
to deal with a power outage hurricaneYeah. Yeah, and you can't really
dig a lot of underground caves,can you. Well, we were at
Antoines. So last week it wasa restaurant week and we went to Antoines,
(40:20):
which is the oldest restaurant New Yorkestablished in eighteen thirty and after launch,
they gave us a tour of thewine cellar and a lot of the
bins were empty because and a lotof the bins that were full were like
wines. They were like everyday wines. And it's because during Hurricane Ida,
when a power generator filed that whateversomething filmed, they lost power for a
(40:40):
month in September, they lost theirwine. Oh that's so sad. I
hate, Yeah, I hate ithappened to Hurricane Sandy too. So we're
fortunately we have a we're renting ahouse with a generator. We're just hoping
because we have those hundred cases ofwine and more and a common five hundred.
So that's the biggest concern here.And yet half empty, halfle an
(41:06):
opportunity, a business opportunity to comecome up with state of the art wine
storage for new or right. Yeah, my goodness, I hope people.
So the wine refrigeration business needs tobe listening to this podcast, and so
the Shitalian exactly. We see businessopportunities where you know, with it doesn't
exist, build it. I thoughtotherwise it's great, right, So are
(41:29):
you working on any generators? Yeah? Backup, general generators are an important
thing. We had here most nowin Sonoma, A lot of us if
I had to get those because Ilive, you know, in three and
a half acres, and when wehad the twenty seventeen fires, we were
evacuated four times. A house neverburned down, but we had to like
flee and so I'm trying to grabmy best balls of wine cram them into
(41:52):
a cooler and take them with me. And you know, it was finally,
at the end of everything, Ijust said to my we need to
drink some of these wines, whichis silly, you know, you know,
because you're not sure what's going tohappen, you know. And then
finally during COVID, Yeah, duringCOVID, we just drank the red I
just invited friends over, like,we're just drinking these wines. Let's enjoy
(42:14):
them. That's what do we keepsaving them for. Well, we decided
to not save any of the winesthat we have. Now we're just going
to drink. We're drinking our cellar. So when we were in Tennessee,
when we were in Tennessee cleaning outmy fam my mother died and my dad
has been dead for a while,but nobody touched the cellar except us.
Of course at Christmas and whenever wecould, you know, squirrel away with
(42:35):
the good wines. But there wasa lot of wine. And it was
heartbreaking to toss out many wines thatshould have been enjoyed many many years ago,
that just lived beyond their time.That is heartbreaking, I know,
I know it, really, itreally is. I have a friend who
does she does sell her evaluation andmanagement, and she said, yeah,
(42:59):
sometimes you get into these cellars andit is heartbreaking because you know the wines
are just they're past their prime,and you know we're not in the right
condition. But I do have afunny story to share with you. When
I was doing my sabbatical in twentysixteen, I was in Burgundy for six
months. I was teaching at theBurgundy School of Business. There wine and
then they they were I didn't getpaid, but I got my housing taken
(43:22):
care him. So they asked me, do you want to live in an
apartment in Djon or do you wantto live in a small village out in
the vineyards. I'm like, I'ma living in the vineyards for sure.
So they put me in Van Romany. I was one block from DRC,
and I got invited to go therefour times when I lived there, mainly
because I kept bumping into people onthe sidewalk, you know who worked there,
(43:45):
And so I got to go tastethere. And I remember talking with
bertrand Devalon, he's the current youknow CEO. He took over Old Bear's
place, and he was like,we want people to drink our wine.
We do not want them to buythem and stick them off in some dusty
(44:07):
cellar for centuries, because we wantthem to enjoy them and to share them
with people. You know, Thesepeople who just you know, hoard all
this wine and don't drink it driveus insane. So I always remember that,
you know, and it's true.Wine is is for sharing. It's
for enjoying with friends and family,not just for saving forever and ever and
(44:30):
ever. We couldn't agree with youmore. And we plan to open up
every bottle because we're not taking itto the next location, just as I
said to David. And then mynext location could be an urn. I
really don't know if I want tomove again. We've moved like twice now,
and and we've moved lots of bottlesand lots of stuff. And at
(44:50):
the end of the day, youdo really it is. You know,
wine is meant to be enjoyed.You don't put these, you know,
you don't put bottles away going.I'm gonna save it for Whenever'sville or oh
Mans, maybe I'll sell it becauseit's going to be worth a lot of
money. Because by the time youget around to selling it, it's not
worth that much money, trust me, it's it's gone. Yeah. You
have to prove yeah, and youhave to prove the prominence that you sell
(45:10):
a correctly and everything and so.But you know there are people I've written
also about, you know, winefinance and investment, and there are good
returns on wine. But so yeah, so you know there's the old adage
of buy two cases, you know, drink one, save the other,
and sell it ten years later andyou'll drink for free. And to tell
(45:31):
you too, some of that thatis true. Just as long as you
keep the wine stored correctly, otherwiseyou won't be able to sell it.
Well. That that is the keystory. It correctly you wine storage opportunity.
I'm convincing business. Yeah, Iwill say talk about the profit on
wine though, I will say whenwe were when we were cleaning out.
(45:53):
This was the first time I cleanedout Melanie's father seller, which was fifteen
years ago. I took some boughtthe bottle of petruse from the nineteen sixties
I think it was the sixties sixwith the price tag still on it of
twenty nine dollars. Oh my gosh. Wow. So just think about how
(46:13):
that think about how much that costs. Now, we did drink gosh good
good. Yeah. So was itstill tasting Okay, yeah, it's still
tasting fine. Yeah. We dranka lot of them wine we sold someone.
We did a mixed mash and youknow, we've opened some wine since
we brought it here, and someof it's been heartbreakingly but not We moved
(46:34):
a lot of wine past this prime. Probably, But sometimes it's a three
bottle night and you open them andyou're like, oop's you're bad. You
finally find one. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes they're quite magnificent and you wouldn't
max. You're surprised because you weren'texpecting that, and you're like, wow,
this age beautifully. Yeah. Wefound out actually with a lot of
the old California ones because her fatherhad a lot of old early nineteen seventies,
(46:59):
late sixties wines from Napa Valley inhis cellar and we found it the
opening. Those that have been thebiggest eye opener for us because they were
just stunningly made and at a timewhere really nobody knew anything about California wine
outside California. Yeah, it's beenit's been a great Winemakers are going back
to that style. You know,lower alcohol, higher acid, more elegant,
(47:22):
a little you know, a littleless fleshy and leaner in the body,
but still just amazing and brimming withfruit and complexity and minerality. And
so yeah, those ones, thoseones are And like I said, there's
still some there are some winemakers inNapa Valley who do produce wines along those
(47:42):
lines. Still. Yeah, wellit's nice to know that because yeah,
some of the fruit bombs. Forit's just they're difficult. And what happens
is you you would go to winetastings and we listen to people who are
the consumers who are there, andthey'll be like, one, I don't
like those big, oaky shardonnai's.I don't like shardonne i. The you
know, you have to either you'reexplaining it or the person pouring is explaining
(48:05):
that. You know, it's youknow where you're this is. We're breaking
wine now from Austria's the Austrian placewe were drinking cool climates, and it's
not going to be the same.What you're thinking you're going to say is
so there's a lot of wine.You know. Education is eternal, and
I think that that's what's exciting isthat you continue to educate through your speaking
(48:25):
and your research and your writing.And I find that we we find that
very inspiring. And even though writingis still a struggle, uh, people
who are passionate like you and uscontinue to do it for all those reasons
exactly. Yeah, I'm not reallydoing the writing for the money. There
are a few lucky people who canand that you know, for the most
(48:50):
of us, you know, wewe do it for other reasons than too.
And you know, what you sayabout education is so true because you
know, we look at how peoplecome into wine and oftentimes it's a friend
or family who introduces them, orthey visit a wine region or a wine
you know, a winery and theylearned about it and they're like, oh
(49:12):
my gosh, really I didn't realizethat. You know, it came from
the soil and this is how longthe vines live and and you know,
really all that goes into wine reallyfrankly, just the grapes. You know,
it's it's they come from grapes.Some people forget that, and natural,
natural yeast and the other thing thatone of the shocking things that came
(49:36):
out of our research last year,White market councils. We discovered that we
did an ingredient nutrition labeling study andwe discovered about for thirty nine percent of
consumers want that labels. You know, it's happened in Europe, but not
yet, do you ask now mandatoryin Europe as you put ingredient and nutrition
(49:57):
labeling on. And the thing wediscuss though, is that forty nine percent
of US consumers think that wine hassugar added. I know, I saw
that. You know. It's soshocking, and and you know, in
California it's a legal sugar wine.You can't do that, you know,
(50:19):
And it's a great it's it's thesugar. If the wine is sweet,
it's usually the residential sugar from thegrape. We could go on and on
about that topic one another. We'regonna have to wrap this one up.
But we did get some wine labeledno sugar recently, and you're like,
we're telling people, we're telling peopleput no sugar added because we're not adding
(50:40):
in sugar. We're just not,I mean, we're not doing that.
You're done in a few places.But yeah, the marketing, the marketing
is going to need some serious addressingbecause it's getting very confusing to a lot
of consumers. Well, we haveenjoyed your art. Too quick a time
with you, it's been you'll haveto come back another time. But we
really enjoyed talk chatting with you,Liz. How can our friends follow you
(51:02):
really enjoy your podcast? Thank you? Well, probably just right now.
Wine Marketcouncil dot Com is the easiestway to find me, as well as
on LinkedIn. I'm off and outthere a lot, but your podcasts are
great. I really enjoyed your lastone on AI by the way, and
and and SIPs that was that wasfascinating to listen to you. Thank you
for all you two do for thefor the wine industry and the food industry
(51:27):
and the hospitality industry. Well,we enjoy what we do and for me
personally, it's a second maybe athird career, so we'd love it and
we hope to keep doing it andsharing stories. So thank you again,
Liz Thoughts. We've really enjoyed talkingto you, and our message to everybody,
of course, at the end ofevery show is stay and say you'll
be curious. Thank you here,No
The topics and opinions expressed in thefollowing show are solely those of the hosts
and their guests, and not thoseof W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are
affiliates. We make no recommendations orendorsements for radio show programs, services,
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be extended to W four CY Radioor it's employees are affiliates. Any questions
or comments should be directed to thoseshow hosts. Thank you for choosing W
(00:21):
FOURCY Radio. Welcome to the ConnectedTable Live. We're your hosts, Melanie
(00:46):
Young and David Ransom. You're insatiablycurious culinary couple. We travel the world
to meet people, taste wines,and visit destinations to bring you our discoveries,
and we love sharing the stories ofthe people and places we meet with
you, our listeners around the world. It's beautiful day in June and Steamy's
sultry New Orleans and we're excited.So we have a couple of sub series
(01:10):
in the Connected Table podcast, whichcan be heard on over sixty podcast channels.
After today's live show, we havea series called The Masters of Wine.
We have behind the byline interviewing notablejournalists. And then we have our
based program and focus, which isglobal leaders and thought leaders in the world
of wine, food, spirits andhospitality. Well, today's guest come is
(01:34):
the trifecta. She hits all threeof those. We have wanted to have
her as a guest for a while. We finally connected through after I personally
attended some webinars from the Wine MarketCouncil, which she is currently president of.
We're talking today with doctor Liz Tosh. She's a Master of Wine and
has a PhD and as a professor. Listen to this nutshell resume. She's
(01:57):
received more than thirty awards and accolades, presented it more than one hundred conferences
as a speaker, published more thantwo hundred articles as a journalist, written
nine books. Throughout her industry careerand wine she has visited almost all of
the world's wine regions and over seventyfive countries and since on August twenty twenty
(02:23):
three, she serves as the presidentof the Wine Market Council, a very
interesting nonprofit organization that does a lotof research and presents data on trends and
important Basically, if you're anyone who'sin the business of producing, buying,
selling, or engaging with customers aboutbuying your wine, you want to become
(02:46):
a member because you will get somepretty important research to help you. And
there's a lot going on in thisindustry, as we know. Should we
say that we that she likes tokeep her finger on the pulse of the
wine instry and her eye on consumertrends of behaviors and other developments that impact
the president and future of wine.And we're delighted that she's taken time out
(03:07):
of her busy writing, talking,traveling, and speaking schedule to join us
today, doctor Liz Tosh. Welcome, Thank you so much, and it's
a pleasure to be here. Well, we're certainly happy to have you on
the show. It's been we startedour MW series and I think you kind
of fall into that category. Well, she isn't today. Yeah, So
(03:29):
we started that series about a yearago and somehow we've seemed to only have
interviewed female MW's Melanie. Well,I think that's really great being someone who
supports women And just to point thatout. Fun fact about Liz, and
we're going to call you Liz versusdoctor Tosh. She's the second woman in
the United States and the first inCalifornia to become a Master of Wine in
(03:52):
May of twenty eleven. But asnoted before, you actually have a whole
nother academic career on. But wealways like to start the show, Liz
with your upbringing, and we readthat you're a fifth generation California But you
actually grew up elsewhere, right,Yes, born in California, but when
(04:12):
I was three, we moved,So I was in South Dakota for five
years, and then Idaho and NewMexico through my high school years before coming
back to California and college. Soyeah, I actually grew up without wine
at the table. Didn't actually knowthat much about it, except for,
you know, when I visited mygrandparents in California. So it was not
something that I originally thought I wasgoing to do. But I did fall
(04:36):
in love with wine when I didgo to college, and I went to
the Napa Valley like a lot ofpeople do in college, and just fell
madly in love with the vineyards,the stories, the history, the legacy,
and just the pleasure that wine bringsin terms of connecting with people and
(04:56):
food and history. It's interesting becauseI have always won. I went to
Napa on my pilgrimage as well whenI wanted to start immersing in wine and
is transformative. I actually want togo to South Dakota and Idaho now because
hadn't been to that part of thecountry. And you know, South Dakota
(05:17):
they both have wineries. In fact, I just got back from Idaho where
I judge in the Idaho Wine Competition, and you know, they've got over
eighty wineries in Idaho now and they'rereally it's a growing industry and they're doing
well. Well. That's good toknow. Yeah, I think wine's actually
made in all fifty states now,yeah technically, yeah, yeah, they
actually Actually I'm from Tennessee. Listin Tennessee has a new ava. I
(05:41):
can't wait to go check it out, the Cumberland Plateau. Who knows what
they're making, but I'm going togo check it out because that's what we
like to do. Like you,because you're you're you're curious. So what
were your early interests back before?Because you have went into academics at the
what we call the high level becauseyou're a PhD. What were your early
interest in dreams as a young girl. Yeah, well, I always enjoyed
(06:03):
writing, so writing and reading,so that's probably why I've written the nine
books and lots of articles. Andso I studied English in college and then
later went on got a master's inbusiness and my PhD is in human resource
management. So but yeah, Iwanted to write, and you know,
writing is a great skill to have, especially in business, and so it
(06:27):
did me well. So I wasten years actually working for large fortune five
hundred companies in different states like Texasand Colorado. And then long term,
though I knew I wanted to bea professor someday, I just didn't do
it for a while, and soit was a second career, and I
got a job at Snowma State University, right in the heart of wine country,
(06:48):
you know, thirty minutes from Napa. I live on Snowa Mountain,
and so I worked there for twentythree years teaching wine the wine MBA program,
and we also had about sort ofwine, and then I taught of
course strategy, leadership, marketing,you know, business classes as well,
and it was great. You know, anytime I go to a winery and
nap and snow, I can't helpbut bump into one of my hundreds of
(07:11):
graduates working in the industry and doingwell. It's always a thrill to see
them. I love helping people achievetheir career dreams. And so the MW
was something that I also had notplanned on doing. I worshiped the MW,
so I was like, wow,I could never be like that.
And then, and at that timein California, they were all men.
(07:32):
They all were men, and severalwere friends, like Peter marsh and Tim
han I, and they came tomy first book signing, which was at
Cardinell Winery in Napole Valley, andthey said, hey, Liz, you
can write about wine. Why don'tyou join the MW. And I'm like,
oh, no, oh, there'sno way. I can never be
an MW. I can't taste wellenough. And they're like, we can
(07:56):
teach you to taste, but writingis more challenging, and you need to
write to past the MW. SoI embarked on that in two thousand and
six and then twenty eleven became anMW. I at the time, I
didn't know I was going to bethe first woman on the West Coast to
become an MW. And I didn'tfind out un till you know, I
(08:18):
passed, and they told me,you do realize you're the first one in
California, you know, and onthe whole West Coast, a first woman
to be an MW, And sothat was that was exciting for me.
And also I was I was sohonored by the and humble. But the
state of California legislature also gave mea special award for becoming the first woman
in California to become an MW.They gave me one of their special resolutions.
(08:43):
So that was I was just Iwas thrilled and I didn't know that
was going to happen. It's prettyamazing. I'm curious. You have to
write a thesis. Oh yeah,what was what was your focus? You
know, it's it's interesting. Minewas actually on gender. So I looked
at how men and women and itwas only in California. MW, like
(09:05):
should have a clear clear focus foryour most research and dissertations do on how
men and women look at wine,are motivated by wine, are attracted to
wine, how they come into thecategory that different types of wine, they
like, packaging, and so forth. So that was the study. That's
(09:26):
pretty interesting given the marketing challenges andtopics and focuses and debates and on and
on and on going on right nowin the industry. So I'm curious because
I have another show that targets womenover fifty, which I am, and
when I go to the store,I get pitched. We get pitched,
(09:48):
David, I get pitched on wineall the time, but sometimes we get
pitched on women focus wine clearly,and I kind of get my ruffles,
my feathers ruffled a bit when Isee packaging and why that clearly targets women
that I don't feel as appropriately targetingwomen. Yes, that was actually one
(10:11):
of the findings. And it's funnybecause I interviewed lots of men and women,
and then I did a survey,and then I also interviewed the brand
the people who created those brands,and some of them actually So just the
long story, stort, there isa certain segment of the population that is
attracted to that type of branding.And keep in mind, this research was
(10:33):
done in twenty ten, and Ithink things have changed since then. But
a lot of the women felt,just like you, they were offended by
some of these brands, and someof the brands did not do well,
and others others did, and sowhat we see now is more. In
fact, at the end of mypaper, my conclusion was, yes,
(10:54):
there is a place for some ofthese brands, but for the most part,
the safer, the safer path forwineries is to choose a gender gender
neutral position. And of course,now that was in twenty ten when I
wrote that, and now in twentytwenty four, it's it's definitely, you
know, something that we want toconsider. Whine is for everybody, and
(11:16):
gender is not really you know,that's that doesn't really play, you know,
into it so much. However,we still do have more women drinking
wine than men. So it's fiftyfive female in the US compared to forty
five percent male, and that's prettymuch the same in many other countries.
There's always a few more women thatdrink wine than men. And purchasing wine
(11:39):
too, I think, right,right, yeah, yeah, women drive
more. So women drive the purchasingin terms of volume. But guess who
spends more on wine? Men?Men have a tendency to when they do
go to buy a bottle of wine, they will spend more on it.
Well, we've got a lot,there's a lot to talk about in all
(12:01):
these areas, because this is justan ongoing thing. Just flash forward.
So for over twenty years you wereteaching at Sonoma Stake and you continue to
teach, uh with a different collegenow online right right, I'm teaching for
Stanford Continuing Education to Justice. Oneis online business and the other is on
(12:24):
food and wine pairing. And soyeah, those are online classes. They're
fun because I have students from youknow, around the world who join those
classes. The one is for creditand the other is not, So they're
they're they're more relaxed, you knowclasses. Nobody needs to have a background
in wine and just more a chanceto learn, you know. Stanford calls
(12:48):
it fun and intellectual stimulating classes.Well, you know, I found we
both found it interesting that you have. You have so many facets to your
career, Liz, and you knowyou've written nine books. I've written two.
I aspired to write nine. Alot of them are about the business
of wine. Tell us what wasyour first book. I'm curious about the
(13:11):
first very first book was actually calledWine a Global Business and that the reason
I wrote that one, and Iwrote it with a colleague, Tim Met.
At the time he was at Barringerin sales, and he approached me
and says, we should write abook because nobody's written one yet on this.
And he was right, because Iwas trying to teach wine business.
I started teaching at two thousands andI said, okay, fine, I'll
(13:37):
teach this class. Where are mytextbooks? And they said there aren't any.
Nobody has ever written a book onwine business. And so I started
using just like articles from like winebusiness monthly magazines and pulling pieces here and
there. And finally, after threeyears, I got frustrated and I said,
forget it. I'm going to writea book. So that's how.
(13:58):
That's how that first book came out. And that was in two thousand and
five. And then that's when Imet Jim and Peter and started in w
in two thousand and six. Soyeah, then that book got it got
republished again, I forget in whatyear, And so it became a textbook.
It's a textbook. It's been putinto I mean, it's not technically
(14:20):
a textbook, but it's designed tobe more of a textbook. It's a
very technical book on the business ofwine. You know, writing textbooks a
good thing because they're study any money. You know, you get into calling,
you know versus you know, wewe get a lot of books sent
to us as well, wine books, and you know sometimes you know,
(14:41):
we just moved was and the booksthat had to go bye bye were those
giant picture books, the technooks.It's difficult. You know, there are
wine libraries, you know, aroundthe nation, at universities that will accept
those as donations. You know,they're beautiful books. I have so many,
it into I have a whole wallof wine books. Well, we
(15:03):
moved during a pandemic, so itwas nobody wanted our books. We ended
up giving three hundred books to thelocal gardener in New York library because nobody
wanted books and we moved Aga.They now have a cookbook that collection.
They should have the Melanie book bookto really but but you know, sometimes
a good solid book, particularly awine business book, is a great thing
(15:24):
because you really are about the businessof wine. I mean you also write
for several hours, which I actuallyfound the fact that you find time to
do the right now that we knowhow much writing means to you. As
you know, and we know winejournalists like vines sometimes have to dig deep
in struggles to produce fruit these daysbecause the pay is so little, so
(15:48):
you have to be very diversified inwhat you're doing exactly. It is really
challenging to make a mortgage and buythe food and panted electricity on a wine
writer's salary. So most of uswho are wine writers, we also have
other careers that will help pay thebills. I think we write mainly out
(16:08):
of joy. I write probably anarticle a week now and I published.
I published still in Wine Business Monthly, but I published more frequently now in
Forbes and the Forbes contributor, alsoWine Spectators Can or Farm Journal in fact,
to just finishing up an article thismorning for som journal. So I
(16:30):
do, I'd say one a weekan article and then the rest of the
time. I mean, I'm technicallyretired from snow and State, but then
I took on the new job asPresident of Wine Market Council, which is
which is about a halftime job.It's fifty percent of my time. But
that's a that's a paid job,right, Yes, that's okay, Well
that's good because we were one.Yeah. I mean these days where you
(16:52):
know, coming from wine so justI come from the business of marketing,
public relations, and events and wine. So you know, the business of
wine is what I often write aboutas well for Wine Industry Advisor, and
I had one, and I findthe topic interesting. I mean, we
love the beauty and pleasure of wineitself and pairing it, but the business
(17:15):
of wine is interesting from our mutualbackgrounds and a big topic right now.
I attended a recent webinar with theWine Market Council did addressing the problem,
you know, or as I saidto David, let's say, sometimes the
wine industry is so busy staring atits belly button and the glass is either
(17:37):
half full or half empty, dependingon how you're looking at the glass,
right, Yes, m hm,And well I'm sorry, go ahead,
No said well was it the web? Was it the webinar we did called
behind the Dire Headlines? Yes,you know, the good the good news
(17:57):
of that wine? Yeah, yes, Christian, the most recent one we
did, Yes, yeah, uhhuh, Yes, I agree with you.
And we were concerned because, Imean, we look at data all
day long, and we knew thatdata wasn't so bad, but it seemed
like all the wine writers were focusingon only the negative headlines, you know,
(18:19):
because there's that old saying, youknow what leads leads in the news,
and you know, we watched thenews nowadays at night and it's so
depressing. I think I only watchedthe news twice twice a week now because
it just depresses me too much.And they don't report on the positive things
happening in the world, or veryrarely, and that's what was happening in
(18:40):
wine. We were getting in thiscycle, this doom and gloom cycle and
throwing out all the good stuff thatwas there. So, yes, wine
sales are down in volume at belowten dollars a bottle, but the wine
value is up one hundred and sevenbillion dollars last year wine that broke all
records of it the eyes we've everhit. But nobody was talking about that
(19:03):
part. They were talking about,Yeah, volumes down, and the reason
that volume is down is because theconsumer is trading us. I mean,
we need to look at what theconsumer wants. Yeah, they're not buying
as much wine, but they're spendingmore on a nicer bottle of wine,
and so that has repercussions throughout thevalue chains. So it really hurts the
(19:26):
grape growers who are growing those valuegrapes and some of whom are having to
pull them out because consumers don't wantto buy that kind of wine anymore.
And then it's also hurting retailers,some retailers who are stalking a lot of
those lines and kept tell them orinventory is sitting on shelves after COVID.
(19:47):
You know, we had all therestaurants and the retailers who stockpiled, well
not the restaurants, but the retailerswho stockpiled during COVID, So we were
having to dig through that. Sothe news is not as bleak as people
are saying. And indeed, wefound did our latest research that millennials who
are now mainly in their thirties,the oldest millennial is now twenty eight.
That's important to keep in mind.I'm sorry the youngest and the oldest is
(20:11):
forty three. They're fine a lotof wine now that they're in their thirties
and they're more settled, and youknow, they have some you know,
probably well paying jobs. You know, they might have a house and a
mortgage and kids. They're drinking winebecause wine is a wonderful drink of moderation,
and it is something people tried intheir twenties, but they get more
(20:34):
serious about it in their thirties,so this is exciting news. Yes,
gen Z is still you know,not adopting that much wine. Some of
them are, but you know alot of them are. In fact,
a lot of gen Z is notdrinking any alcohol because they're sort of part
of the sober curious movement and thisis important to them at this time in
(20:55):
their lives. You know, theymay change, but that's where a lot
of them are now, not allof them. We know a lot of
gen Zs who who enjoy wine.In fact, I just did a story
in Forbes on young the young winemakers of Napa who are all like in
their you know, twenties, andyou know, they're so passionate about wine,
and their friends are passionate about wine. So we like to we like
(21:18):
to remind people that the glass isyou know, definitely half full. And
and let's not get in this doomspiral because what it was doing it was
it was having repercussions. Consumers werestarting to hear, oh wow, maybe
I shouldn't drink wine because you know, it's not doing well. And and
then young people in the industry,the people I had, you know,
(21:42):
been teaching they were like, Liz, is there a career for me in
this industry? It's not sounding good. All the news is so bad,
and I'm thinking, wait a minute, the news is not that well,
the news is bad, but butbut the data is good. So let's
let's actually tell the whole story here. Let's let's look at the fact.
And so that's sort of what wewere trying to do in that webinar.
(22:03):
And fortunately there are a lot ofpeople who already had that data, for
example, like Jackson family and KarenDana and who sort of lad that she
and her team were the one saying, wait a minute, our wines are
selling really well. You know,what is all this stuff? What's all
this doom and gloom? And soyeah, there's a lot of there's there's
(22:25):
still a lot of great news aboutwine. I don't know if you read
the New York Times yesterday and EricAsmanov article in defense of wine. I
wrote to Eric immediately and I said, this is such a beautiful piece.
I mean, he's such a greatwriter. It was so eloquently written,
but also it was very objective,you know, telling both sides of the
(22:45):
story. And Eric wrote me backthis morning and said thank you so much,
you know, for the company.I read it this morning. It
was a beautiful piece in Defensive Wine. It's sad you have to use the
word defense, but you know youhave to look at history and and wine.
Wine is, you know, thepart of religion, and people were
(23:07):
drinking wine instead of water back whenwater was unsafe, and and then you
know the culture. He really everybodylistening should read this uh New York Times
article in Defensive Wine by Eric Asimov, because he really wrote it in such
an incredible way. I pull hesaid, I've never consumed wine because I
imagined it was healthy, because hewas addressing the whole health thing now.
(23:29):
But I don't fear it in moderation, just as I continue to do other
things that are not without risk,like drive, fly, eat me,
train in martial arts, you know, ultra processed food. I could go
on and on. Everybody ought tofeel free to make their own choices about
wine and assessing the risks. Pleasetake in its beauty, culture, history,
and joy and account because it's aculture, it's a lifestyle, and
(23:52):
it is you know, it isbeing demonized. And I do come from
a health and wellness back on justfull discorder. I am a breast cancer
survivor, so Liz, when Iwas diagnosed, I had to come to
that realization in my own head.Did my lifestyle and consumption of rich wine,
(24:15):
rich food and wine, was itlinked to my cancer? I don't.
At the end, I carry agene, a genetic mutation. And
I know even Monday morning quarterback.But at the end of the day,
you embrace everything in moderation, butyou don't give it up just because because
the end of the day, asI said to David before the show,
the food of the drink doesn't causethe illness. It's your it's lifestyles and
(24:37):
habits and how you take care ofyourself. Yeah, and I say that
over and argantel I'm blue in theface because and some of it is genetics
too, as I mentioned, Yesone my case it was. But you
know, obesity, you know isan issue. You know, obesity is
probably the biggest thing. But Ithink people need to understand that. But
(25:00):
because there's a lot of issues now, the Wine Market Council has also launched
a new data a research program becauseyou do, like the Council does several
a year, and this one ison multicultural customers. Because one of the
other takeaways that I got from thatwebinar and others I've attended is that a
big challenge is that marketers don't knowhow to speak correctly to niche audiences.
(25:25):
Yes, you are correct, Yeah, and Wine Market Council does do.
We usually do three big research studiesa year on the US wine consumer.
We only focus on the US wineconsumer, and so the studies that the
topics of the studies are determined byour members. They do a survey area
(25:47):
where they vote on what they wantedto focus on this year. Because you're
a nonprofit, so we're supported bytheir dues. And then we have a
research committee composed of our members andthey help us, you know, design
the service and develop the RFPs andread through all the proposals because we outsource
a lot of these two really bigcompanies that do a great job doing this
(26:10):
national because we're doing this national surveys, and so the number one topic they
picked for this year was trying toattract more young adults and multiculture consumers to
wine. I've already talked about thegen Z issues. We want to understand
more about what's happening there and howwe can meet their needs. And then
(26:33):
the multicultural issue is the one that'sbeen going on for years. We've never
really done a great job the wineindustry the whole in making, as you
say, and really understanding what weneed to do to communicate well with those
different segments of the population. Thegood news though, is that in the
(26:56):
last few years we have made someproductress in African American and Asian American communities,
but we still are not making muchheadway in the Hispanic So we're going
to look at all three of themthough, because we definitely know we still
have work to do in all ofthose, as well as looking at that
Gen Z population and some of theyounger millennials, you know. So yeah,
(27:22):
that's the big project. It's exciting. We we have picked our vendor
and it's SMA Facts and in factnext week we start, in fact this
week we're beta testing. We're startingthe shop alongs So it's this really cool
new software called eye Tracks where theygo out and they shop with people in
grocery stores and restaurants, in wineshops, you know, trying to understand
(27:48):
you know what. And it's avideo, you know, using your phone
talking with with somebody in your ear, asking Okay, what wine's attracting you?
Why are you buying this one?Where are you going? What else
are you looking at? So youknow, what are you having with dinner
tonight? You know, is itgoing to be tacos or is it going
to be sushi? You know what. So that whole trying to understand how
they shop and what attracts them andwhat information they're looking for. That's the
(28:14):
that's the survey that's going on rightnow, or the study, I should
say, because it's a three partstudy. And so this is the second
part, which is qualitative shop alongvideo interviews, and then we also have
the huge, large survey. Sothis is pretty exciting. I'm really excited
about this study. We have twoothers who are doing this year too,
but this is this is the bigone. I would say, well,
(28:38):
yeah, I was at one ofthe Unteen Women in Wine symposiums of attendant
over the years, and there wasa Indian, a woman who's an Indian
blogger from India, and she said, no one's talking to my audience.
No one talks to my audience,and she is right, and we were
surprised. So because so in America, people from India classified as Asian,
(29:03):
and so we pulled all the data. So the first part of that research
was looking at what we call aliteratary view. We're going out and grabbing
all of the research that's already beenwritten on this topic, right, because
there's a lot of there's a lotof key learnings out there, and we
don't want to be redundant, wedon't want to waste people's money. So
and one of the things we pulledwas the US Census data on Asians in
(29:26):
America, and it turns out thatthe Indian people from India are huge populations,
growing fast, but also the highestincome makers of all Asians, followed
by Chinese. So this is somethingthat we're like, my goodness, and
nobody's paying any attention to this segmentof the US population and they're so important.
(29:52):
So she's right, we need morepeople like her blogging about this.
Well, she's got a huge followingas a result ault of it. But
it is I that'd be like saying, uh, we we're just lumping all
Europeans together. I mean, it'sthe same thing with Asia. I know
that that's such sort of the wayit's done at this point. So but
(30:12):
you know, yeah, if somebodyhad the funding, you know, to
do a deep dive into that population. And I don't know that that's us
is a nonprofit at this point.We're not that big. We don't have
that much money. But you know, some of the larger, you know,
wine corporations might be able to dothat on their own. But it's
(30:33):
a great idea. Yeah, Idon't know. Everybody's so busy just trying
to figure out, you know,increased margins. I was also telling David
Marning one of the challenges with everything, with every everything that's beautiful is it
becomes at some point a CpG uh. And then when when wine or that
beautiful piece of fruit or anything youlove suddenly becomes just a consumer product good
(30:59):
and product you're pushing and a numbercrunch gets the tied up. Sorry big
corporations, but I'm going to saythis, When a number crunter gets behind
it and no longer is talking aboutthe story and the authenticity and the history,
and it's just pushing it based onunits, the joy is gone for
a lot of consumers, including me. And I'm not a gen X,
(31:19):
but that's a problem. Also whenyou no longer treat the product because of
its beauty and history and sense ofplace and culture, and it's just a
unit. Well, and I thinkthat's what Eric Asmov was addressing a news
article this week exactly, is thatthe history of wine and the joy of
drinking wine is unlike any other productout there, and that you need to
(31:41):
embrace that to and embrace one.But the wine salesperson, whose entire salary
depends on moving units and booking shelves, it's such a whole different thing,
right, Yeah. I always usedto teach that there's two worlds of wine.
There's the commodity world, which you'retalking about, right, which is
important. I mean, seventy percentof the wine sold around the world is
(32:01):
like under ten dollars a bottle andfits into that commodity world, and it's
all about branding. And there's somebeautiful, delicious wines in that category.
I bring seven nineteen nine bottles ofwine once away because some of them are
just gorgeous. But then there's theother world of wine, which we call
the Tehois world, or the worldof the soil, the world of the
(32:23):
dirt, the world of the artists, the world of the crafts person,
and that part of the wine worldis actually doing quite well. In fact,
I talked to a lot of thoselittle growers and artists and wineries around
napens Andoma. You know, they'remaking less than five thousand cases. They're
(32:44):
hands selling everything through their tasting roomsor their wine clubs or in fine wine
shops and fine restaurants, and they'retelling the story. And they're mainly farming
organically and sustainably for sure, ifnot organic, and they're so passionate about
what they do, and they're actuallypart of the story that's making a decent
(33:05):
amount of money. Their margins aregood. I mean, I just talked
to one who's like, I waslike, aren't you worried about the gloomy
headlines? And he's like, he'stalking about my shelves. We're up seventeen
percent last year, my wife.You know. So there's a lot of
those tiny, little family run wineriesand yeah, they're not in the big
grocery stores because they don't make enoughwine to be but they're they're doing well
(33:30):
and they're thriving, and you know, every once in a while they get
bought by a big brand and turnedinto a large you know, expanded and
they move into that other world,the commodity world. But both worlds are
important in wine, and so Ijust like to I found it was very
(33:51):
helpful when I was teaching my studentsthat there are these two worlds of wine.
You need to decide which one youwant to work in. And you
know, some of the large corporationswork in both, you know, and
there and they brand and they marketand they in completely different ways. They
sell in different channels, but they'reboth important. Well, we understand you
(34:13):
make a little wine you live inin Cinema Mountains, Where exactly do you
live in Sonoma and tell us aboutthe little bit of wine you're making.
So I actually live five hundred feetup from sea level on Sonoma Mountains for
about that far up up on thehill, and it's in the Pedal in
the Gap part of the Sonoma County. So it's so we used to be
(34:35):
Sonoma Coast, and then you know, Sonoma Coast is now being sort of
broken up into smaller ada, Sowe became the pedalum the Gap. And
I'm trying to remember what year itwas. It wasn't that long ago I
was on. Yeah, And sowe specialize in cool climate Pinot, Chardonnay
(34:57):
and Sarah. And the reason isis because it's called the kind of the
gap, because there's a gap inthe mountains right near Petaluma where the ocean
rushes in and the winds and thecold, and so we get these winds
it's called wind to wine. Weget these winds every afternoon that chill everything
down. Not only do they keepthings cooler, which you know and Chardonay
love cool cooler fligements, but theyalso toughen up the grape skins, especially
(35:24):
around our the panos. And sowere you create here more of a darker
fruit, I sort of say aPomard style if we if we look at
Burgundia, it's a bigger, moremuscular style with high acidity, but more
black cherry, more garich, morecomplex herb notes. They're wonderful food wines,
(35:49):
and there's not that many. There'snot that many wineries here. I
think there's maybe I don't know twentynow in this part of the Pedaluma Gap.
So I'm actually just growing for fun. I'm what's called hobby wine makers.
So I have a fourth of anacre of peanut noire grapes and they
do very well. Here. It'slike this region was just designed. Pinal
loves to be here to shard mayand I make rose pean and ore,
(36:15):
and I make red pean and orefrom the vineyard. My neighbors helped me
harvest it. I used to havemy students help me and we'd have a
big harvest party and barbecue afterwards.And I only make I have one hundred
and ten bines and I make onehundred and ten bottles, so it's a
very small production, and I giveit all away. I give it some
(36:37):
way to friends and family because it'syeah, I'm not in the business to
sell it. I'm just in thebusiness to enjoy the process. And it
actually helped me planting that vineyard Iplanted in two thousand and three, and
then learning to make wine. Ithelped me pass the MW dam because I
made every single mistake you can possiblymake, and I learned from it.
So, you know, dealing withyou know, powdery meld, dealing with
(37:00):
you know, raccoon eating on mygrades, dealing with you know v a
in the in my cellar which isin my garage, and you know,
just just all of these issues youcan get when you're when you're a home
wine maker. I did take someclasses at UC Davis on wine making,
and I took viticulture classes at theCenter Roads of JC to learn how to
(37:21):
do all that stuff. But butthere's nothing like actually doing it that really
teach you about about the complexities ofthe whole great growing wine making world.
It's a very interesting process to beinvolved in. Yeah, and have you
two done harvested? Well, myfamily under winery in New York State for
(37:44):
many years, so I actually comefor a low wine business. It was
an award winning winery. I'm justgoing to add in that's how we met.
So his family owned Revendel. Itwas an award winning winery when the
governors I remember that. Yeah,we were. We were the top award
winning winery in New York for probablytwenty years, and then divested ourselves of
(38:04):
it in two thousand and eight.But yeah, it was a good run.
Loved it, David. That's howwe met, and it was a
trific end. But the nice thingis we still have bottles of what their
Rivendll's fabulous were low and Tier ofthe Clouds, which was the sweet wine.
It was ice wine, right,Yeah, it was late harvest just
fabulous. So we are blessed.When we moved to New Orleans, and
(38:27):
we moved from New York, storedthe wine for four years and lived on
the road and on and and wecan go on. But the wine,
one hundred and something cases of winethat were stored in New York just arrived
what last week or week ago,and we're slowly opening up these wines that
we've missed from the many years thatwe've worked in wine. My father was
an educator. He was a CPAby business, and in Tennessee in the
(38:52):
seventies started collecting and created a wineappreciation program and taught it for thirty five
years. So I come from theeducation and fighting business. Yeah. Well,
what a perfect couple you made side. Plus you've got the education and
writing side. Yeah. So that'swhat brought us together. Living in New
(39:15):
Orleans. It's such a fun city, great food. New Orleans is a
phenomenal city. We wish more wineproducers would come here, particularly are Italian
friends, because there's a strong Sicilianand Italian American presence. Although the Wine
Spectator did come here with their grandthey did in April. They did,
and we were great for that,right and then we also we attended a
(39:37):
tasting at a well known wine storehere called Martin's Wine Cellar, probably the
best retailer in the city. Andthey actually had a tasting of German and
Austrian producers and the producers were allin town for it about a week ago.
Yeah, so we went to that. So we're here to help elevate,
engage and educate and bring more wineawareness here. There's some wonderful wine
(39:59):
bars. You know what the biggestchallenges is making sure that we know how
to deal with a power outage hurricaneYeah. Yeah, and you can't really
dig a lot of underground caves,can you. Well, we were at
Antoines. So last week it wasa restaurant week and we went to Antoines,
(40:20):
which is the oldest restaurant New Yorkestablished in eighteen thirty and after launch,
they gave us a tour of thewine cellar and a lot of the
bins were empty because and a lotof the bins that were full were like
wines. They were like everyday wines. And it's because during Hurricane Ida,
when a power generator filed that whateversomething filmed, they lost power for a
(40:40):
month in September, they lost theirwine. Oh that's so sad. I
hate, Yeah, I hate ithappened to Hurricane Sandy too. So we're
fortunately we have a we're renting ahouse with a generator. We're just hoping
because we have those hundred cases ofwine and more and a common five hundred.
So that's the biggest concern here.And yet half empty, halfle an
(41:06):
opportunity, a business opportunity to comecome up with state of the art wine
storage for new or right. Yeah, my goodness, I hope people.
So the wine refrigeration business needs tobe listening to this podcast, and so
the Shitalian exactly. We see businessopportunities where you know, with it doesn't
exist, build it. I thoughtotherwise it's great, right, So are
(41:29):
you working on any generators? Yeah? Backup, general generators are an important
thing. We had here most nowin Sonoma, A lot of us if
I had to get those because Ilive, you know, in three and
a half acres, and when wehad the twenty seventeen fires, we were
evacuated four times. A house neverburned down, but we had to like
flee and so I'm trying to grabmy best balls of wine cram them into
(41:52):
a cooler and take them with me. And you know, it was finally,
at the end of everything, Ijust said to my we need to
drink some of these wines, whichis silly, you know, you know,
because you're not sure what's going tohappen, you know. And then
finally during COVID, Yeah, duringCOVID, we just drank the red I
just invited friends over, like,we're just drinking these wines. Let's enjoy
(42:14):
them. That's what do we keepsaving them for. Well, we decided
to not save any of the winesthat we have. Now we're just going
to drink. We're drinking our cellar. So when we were in Tennessee,
when we were in Tennessee cleaning outmy fam my mother died and my dad
has been dead for a while,but nobody touched the cellar except us.
Of course at Christmas and whenever wecould, you know, squirrel away with
(42:35):
the good wines. But there wasa lot of wine. And it was
heartbreaking to toss out many wines thatshould have been enjoyed many many years ago,
that just lived beyond their time.That is heartbreaking, I know,
I know it, really, itreally is. I have a friend who
does she does sell her evaluation andmanagement, and she said, yeah,
(42:59):
sometimes you get into these cellars andit is heartbreaking because you know the wines
are just they're past their prime,and you know we're not in the right
condition. But I do have afunny story to share with you. When
I was doing my sabbatical in twentysixteen, I was in Burgundy for six
months. I was teaching at theBurgundy School of Business. There wine and
then they they were I didn't getpaid, but I got my housing taken
(43:22):
care him. So they asked me, do you want to live in an
apartment in Djon or do you wantto live in a small village out in
the vineyards. I'm like, I'ma living in the vineyards for sure.
So they put me in Van Romany. I was one block from DRC,
and I got invited to go therefour times when I lived there, mainly
because I kept bumping into people onthe sidewalk, you know who worked there,
(43:45):
And so I got to go tastethere. And I remember talking with
bertrand Devalon, he's the current youknow CEO. He took over Old Bear's
place, and he was like,we want people to drink our wine.
We do not want them to buythem and stick them off in some dusty
(44:07):
cellar for centuries, because we wantthem to enjoy them and to share them
with people. You know, Thesepeople who just you know, hoard all
this wine and don't drink it driveus insane. So I always remember that,
you know, and it's true.Wine is is for sharing. It's
for enjoying with friends and family,not just for saving forever and ever and
(44:30):
ever. We couldn't agree with youmore. And we plan to open up
every bottle because we're not taking itto the next location, just as I
said to David. And then mynext location could be an urn. I
really don't know if I want tomove again. We've moved like twice now,
and and we've moved lots of bottlesand lots of stuff. And at
(44:50):
the end of the day, youdo really it is. You know,
wine is meant to be enjoyed.You don't put these, you know,
you don't put bottles away going.I'm gonna save it for Whenever'sville or oh
Mans, maybe I'll sell it becauseit's going to be worth a lot of
money. Because by the time youget around to selling it, it's not
worth that much money, trust me, it's it's gone. Yeah. You
have to prove yeah, and youhave to prove the prominence that you sell
(45:10):
a correctly and everything and so.But you know there are people I've written
also about, you know, winefinance and investment, and there are good
returns on wine. But so yeah, so you know there's the old adage
of buy two cases, you know, drink one, save the other,
and sell it ten years later andyou'll drink for free. And to tell
(45:31):
you too, some of that thatis true. Just as long as you
keep the wine stored correctly, otherwiseyou won't be able to sell it.
Well. That that is the keystory. It correctly you wine storage opportunity.
I'm convincing business. Yeah, Iwill say talk about the profit on
wine though, I will say whenwe were when we were cleaning out.
(45:53):
This was the first time I cleanedout Melanie's father seller, which was fifteen
years ago. I took some boughtthe bottle of petruse from the nineteen sixties
I think it was the sixties sixwith the price tag still on it of
twenty nine dollars. Oh my gosh. Wow. So just think about how
(46:13):
that think about how much that costs. Now, we did drink gosh good
good. Yeah. So was itstill tasting Okay, yeah, it's still
tasting fine. Yeah. We dranka lot of them wine we sold someone.
We did a mixed mash and youknow, we've opened some wine since
we brought it here, and someof it's been heartbreakingly but not We moved
(46:34):
a lot of wine past this prime. Probably, But sometimes it's a three
bottle night and you open them andyou're like, oop's you're bad. You
finally find one. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes they're quite magnificent and you wouldn't
max. You're surprised because you weren'texpecting that, and you're like, wow,
this age beautifully. Yeah. Wefound out actually with a lot of
the old California ones because her fatherhad a lot of old early nineteen seventies,
(46:59):
late sixties wines from Napa Valley inhis cellar and we found it the
opening. Those that have been thebiggest eye opener for us because they were
just stunningly made and at a timewhere really nobody knew anything about California wine
outside California. Yeah, it's beenit's been a great Winemakers are going back
to that style. You know,lower alcohol, higher acid, more elegant,
(47:22):
a little you know, a littleless fleshy and leaner in the body,
but still just amazing and brimming withfruit and complexity and minerality. And
so yeah, those ones, thoseones are And like I said, there's
still some there are some winemakers inNapa Valley who do produce wines along those
(47:42):
lines. Still. Yeah, wellit's nice to know that because yeah,
some of the fruit bombs. Forit's just they're difficult. And what happens
is you you would go to winetastings and we listen to people who are
the consumers who are there, andthey'll be like, one, I don't
like those big, oaky shardonnai's.I don't like shardonne i. The you
know, you have to either you'reexplaining it or the person pouring is explaining
(48:05):
that. You know, it's youknow where you're this is. We're breaking
wine now from Austria's the Austrian placewe were drinking cool climates, and it's
not going to be the same.What you're thinking you're going to say is
so there's a lot of wine.You know. Education is eternal, and
I think that that's what's exciting isthat you continue to educate through your speaking
(48:25):
and your research and your writing.And I find that we we find that
very inspiring. And even though writingis still a struggle, uh, people
who are passionate like you and uscontinue to do it for all those reasons
exactly. Yeah, I'm not reallydoing the writing for the money. There
are a few lucky people who canand that you know, for the most
(48:50):
of us, you know, wewe do it for other reasons than too.
And you know, what you sayabout education is so true because you
know, we look at how peoplecome into wine and oftentimes it's a friend
or family who introduces them, orthey visit a wine region or a wine
you know, a winery and theylearned about it and they're like, oh
(49:12):
my gosh, really I didn't realizethat. You know, it came from
the soil and this is how longthe vines live and and you know,
really all that goes into wine reallyfrankly, just the grapes. You know,
it's it's they come from grapes.Some people forget that, and natural,
natural yeast and the other thing thatone of the shocking things that came
(49:36):
out of our research last year,White market councils. We discovered that we
did an ingredient nutrition labeling study andwe discovered about for thirty nine percent of
consumers want that labels. You know, it's happened in Europe, but not
yet, do you ask now mandatoryin Europe as you put ingredient and nutrition
(49:57):
labeling on. And the thing wediscuss though, is that forty nine percent
of US consumers think that wine hassugar added. I know, I saw
that. You know. It's soshocking, and and you know, in
California it's a legal sugar wine.You can't do that, you know,
(50:19):
And it's a great it's it's thesugar. If the wine is sweet,
it's usually the residential sugar from thegrape. We could go on and on
about that topic one another. We'regonna have to wrap this one up.
But we did get some wine labeledno sugar recently, and you're like,
we're telling people, we're telling peopleput no sugar added because we're not adding
(50:40):
in sugar. We're just not,I mean, we're not doing that.
You're done in a few places.But yeah, the marketing, the marketing
is going to need some serious addressingbecause it's getting very confusing to a lot
of consumers. Well, we haveenjoyed your art. Too quick a time
with you, it's been you'll haveto come back another time. But we
really enjoyed talk chatting with you,Liz. How can our friends follow you
(51:02):
really enjoy your podcast? Thank you? Well, probably just right now.
Wine Marketcouncil dot Com is the easiestway to find me, as well as
on LinkedIn. I'm off and outthere a lot, but your podcasts are
great. I really enjoyed your lastone on AI by the way, and
and and SIPs that was that wasfascinating to listen to you. Thank you
for all you two do for thefor the wine industry and the food industry
(51:27):
and the hospitality industry. Well,we enjoy what we do and for me
personally, it's a second maybe athird career, so we'd love it and
we hope to keep doing it andsharing stories. So thank you again,
Liz Thoughts. We've really enjoyed talkingto you, and our message to everybody,
of course, at the end ofevery show is stay and say you'll
be curious. Thank you here,No
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