April 14, 2025 • 50 mins
Frank Lobb, author of The Big Lie in My Healthcare Bill, is a retired Navy pilot, was DuPont Process Instruments GM, DuPont’s Environmental Services GM, was a Principal Consultant at Monsanto, then Clean Air Engineering on regulatory law and compliance.
That enabled Frank to force EPA to scrap 3 years of work on the Clean Air Act and rewrite the compliance section.
Later, Frank was able to dissect the hidden contract provisions the healthcare insurance industry uses to deny care and coverage.
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That enabled Frank to force EPA to scrap 3 years of work on the Clean Air Act and rewrite the compliance section.
Later, Frank was able to dissect the hidden contract provisions the healthcare insurance industry uses to deny care and coverage.
Winning Business Radio is broadcast live Mondays at 4PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Winning Business Radio is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Winning Business Radio Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/winning-business-radio--3075598/support.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
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Speaker 2 (00:30):
Churchill said, those who failed to learn from history are
condemned to repeat it. Kevin Helen n believes that certainly
applies to business. Welcome to Winning Business Radio here at
W four CY Radio. That's W four cy dot com
and now your host, Kevin Helen.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Thanks everybody for joining in today. I am Kevin Hallanan
and welcome back to Winning Business TV and Radio on
W four cy dot dot com. We're streaming live on
talkfour tv dot com in addition to Facebook and that's
at Winning Business Radio. And of course we're available in
podcasts after the live show on many platforms, all the
ones you know, YouTube, iHeartRadio, Spotify, Apple again. Wherever you
(01:16):
find your favorite podcasts, we are there. The mission of
this show, winning Business radio and TV, as regular viewers
and listeners know, is to offer insights and advice, really
to help people avoid the mistakes of others, to learn
best practices. Those are the how tos, the what twos,
the what not tos, to be challenged and hopefully to
be inspired by the successes of others. Those consultants, coaches, advisors.
(01:39):
Today's an author, founders and owners, entrepreneurs. He's also an
entrepreneur people with expertise. But you know, virtually every successful
person I've ever had a chance to talk to has
had some form of failure in their lives and careers.
So while we all have to get our knee skin
once in a while, I'm driven to keep those scrapes
from needing major surgery. Let's endeavor to learn from history
so we don't repeat it. I've spent the better part
(02:01):
of my career equipping businesses to grow, and that's from
solopreneurs to small and medium sized companies all the way
up to the fortune fifty. I've seen some of those
companies win into varying degrees. I've seen some fail I've
had the opportunity to rub elbows with some of the
highest performing people around and with some who probably should
have found other professions. In my own businesses, I've had
lots of success, but some failures too, So I like
(02:23):
to think I've learned a lot from those experiences. And
of course you're going to hear from me my opinions
and insights. But anybody who knows, because excuse me, anyone
who knows me will tell you I've sometimes a hard
time staying quiet, Frank. But more importantly, together we'll hear
from experts, those consultants, coaches, authors, advisors, founders, owners, entrepreneurs.
(02:45):
And today my guest is Frank Club, retired US Navy
pilot and author of Ready, the Big Lie in My
Healthcare Bill. I was not I was intrigued, but then
not happy when I read this, and so you'll get
the same response I think. Frank lab is a retired
US Navy pilot with a long and distinguished career outside
the Navy, including roles as general manager for DuPont Processed
(03:07):
Instruments and then for DuPont's environmental services business. After retiring
from DuPont, Frank served as a principal consultant at Monsanto
and then Clean Air Engineering on regulatory law and compliance.
It was this extensive background in the law in compliance
that allowed him to be credited with forcing the EPA
to scrap three years of work on the Clean Air Act.
(03:27):
I want to hear about that and rewrite the compliance
section of the Act around his recommendations. And it was
this same background that excuse me and expertise that allowed
Frank to access and dissect the carefully hidden contractual provisions
that the healthcare industry uses to deny care and coverage
patients are owed from their health insurance. Now eighty six,
(03:50):
Frank lives on a two acre working farm with Angie,
his English wife, in Chester County, Pennsylvania, along with Angie's
seventeen ducks in their two English Springer Spaniels. From there,
together with their son and son in law, they own
and operate the leading hardware and supply business in the region,
and in keeping with his age and long standing promise
to Angie, Frank has promised this will be his very
last book on healthcare because he's finally found the solution
(04:12):
to the fraud and misrepresentation in the nation self insurance
that he has sought for so long. Frank, welcome to
Winning Business Radio.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Thank you very much. I already got to kick out
of the introduction.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Well it's a good one. I mean it's long, but
there's a lot in there, and I didn't want to
water it down too much. I want people to understand
who you are and how you came to this place something.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Yeah, I did force EPA to right the comply, sure, Eric,
but I didn't take away the environmental piece. I sent
them simply made EPA comply with the law as Congress
had written it.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Well, that still doesn't sound like an easy task.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Different In other words, I wasn't arguing what was right
or wrong right other than you can't do something other
than Congress dictated in the law. And it's pretty much
the same thing I'm doing here. There's a part of
the law, or at least in this case, it's contract
law that you can't see. And it took me three
years with the knowledge that I have to get access
(05:14):
to these contracts, and I'm honestly never bumped into anybody
except somebody maybe within the industry that's ever read them.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Well, that's unbelievable. Let me back you up. A little bit, though,
tell us about the business, a little bit about the hardware.
Cameron's right, Well.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
It's a We have about fifty employees and we're a
hardware supply business. We're the largest actually firearms supplier in
the southeast corner of Pennsylvania. Have a long hunting tradition.
We've got a two hundred acre farm that backs into
two thousand acres of woods and fields. And that's the
way we like to live. We live in the in
(05:54):
the big in the bigger world. But this healthcare thing
is simply I had a situation years ago where they
denied care for somebody in the family.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
And this was your first wife, right, yes, and she.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Died and I had offered to pay for it, I said,
when Blue Cross refused to pay, I said I'd pay,
and I was told I couldn't. They wouldn't allow me
to pay.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
All right, stop right there? How does that work? I mean,
that doesn't even make sense.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Well it does. Let's get into this.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Sure, Yeah, go ahead, we'll jump in.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Way back. Thirty five years ago, the Supreme Court ruled
unanimously that healthcare insurance companies could induce rationing the words
induce because they can't force it. An insurance company has
no legal right to determine what is appropriate healthcare.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
That's up to the docks right and escape period.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Okay, only your doctor can do that, and only the
doctor in attendance, not the guy down the block, only
the hold of your hand.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
So it's not a doctor at the insurance company. It's
not a doctor administrator.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
The right word there. Legally is no standing. I don't
care what he says. He can do what he wants.
But the thing is that the insurance companies have had
the power to decide what they're going to cover, and
if you look at their contracts, they give themselves the
power to deny coverage any time they want. But that's
(07:31):
not I.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Think we've all experienced that. But go ahead.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Yeah, but that's not enough for them, and that's what
I ran into. They don't just deny coverage for you,
They deny all payment for anybody that's in network. So
anybody that's got a contract with the insurance industry, when
they deny coverage, they bar everybody within the in network
(07:57):
community from accepting any for care for you.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
So that practically speaking, that ceases care for that particular
ailment or situation.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
And if you think about if you look at healthcare,
fifty percent of the family bankruptcies in the country are
for a healthcare bill. Well, that's not for a bill
for a doctor bill where you win, I spend thirty
bucks or one hundred bucks to go see your doctor.
That's for a hospital bill or you cancer.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
That's for major accidents.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Right, yeah, that's where a hospital bill can three days
can cost you one hundred thousand dollars. And so how
many hospitals you think are going to give you care
when they know they're not allowed to build for it
and it could cost thousands.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
All right, but they do build.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Well, well, what they do is they find a way
to say no. They make it sound like the whole
issue is the insurance. No, because the rules that they
have matter figure out. I have a podcast I just
wrote for a substack, and what I said was Einstein
said years ago that you have to know the rules
(09:10):
of the game and then play it better than anybody
else and everybody. Anything we know about health insurance is
deliberately false. It's not insurance. It's not yours. You don't
the bill is not yours. The contracts say they can
only bill the provider, the in network provider. Okay, and
(09:31):
we are assured of getting all the care that our doctor,
our doctor says we need, regardless of reimbursement. Now tell
me where that where you find that in any discussion
with your doctor, the hospital, or anybody within the American
healthcare system.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
All right, So I'm a patient. You know, I'm a
regular person like you or anybody else. I have a
series of doctors because I'm older. You know, I don't
have one pediatrician or you know, one GP because I'm
young and healthy. Stuff gets stuff happens when you get older.
So we have a series of doctors. We go there,
they treat us, then we get a bill. Well, in
(10:10):
other words, that's our perspective as patients.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Right, hardware business, I'm sitting in the office, and we
could send bills to everybody. That doesn't mean they're due
or they should pay us.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
But we pay them because we don't know otherwise.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Because we don't know any better. And if I could
do that in a hardware business, I'd be a billionaire overnight. Okay.
What do they do they tell you when you that
you have insurance it's an insurance product. No, it's not
under law, it is not insurance insurance. There has to
be a contract between you and the insured, and there
(10:47):
is no such thing. They make you think it's yours.
And when you go into any hospital, there's that little
piece of paper or on the wall you take responsibility.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
For every year, sign a little likenic signature every time
I go, sign the little electronic signature pad.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
You can't say you can't sell something when you surrender
the right to bill for it a long time ago,
when they signed these contracts, they surrender the right to
bill you so long as it's medically necessary care. And
any care you get from your doctor is medically necessary
(11:26):
by definition, because he's not allowed to give you anything else.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
All right, What about the instances where a doctor says
it's medically necessary but the insurance company says we don't agree.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Well, I can say it's not medically necessary. What basis
in law do I have to say that the insurance
company is simply using its hidden authority to deny coverage
any time they want and not telling you that you
can't be billed for it, but you're still owed it.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Okay, So take us back if you don't mind, give
me a little bit more of the specific around your
wife's situation. I mean you got hammered with bills. I mean,
how did you start to figure this out?
Speaker 4 (12:06):
Well, I had a lot of experience in reading contracts,
and so for the out of the Navy and I
went to work for DuPont and I became a general
manager and any process instruments and a few other things.
And I was supposedly very good at writing contracts. And
then I got off onto the environmental side because DuPont
was very deeply involved in finding the entire environmental at
(12:30):
least air compliance. And then I got into determining regulatory compliance.
And I toured the country with EPA, helping people understand
what constitutes compliance. So when I lost my wife, what
do you mean, how can you deny me the right
to pay for the care for my wife? So I
took him to court and we were in court for
(12:52):
eight years.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
This is a particular insurance company. Now yeah, okay, yes.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
But see how it's wrong then, because I sued the
insurance coming, they have a right to do what they did.
Now they lied like a rug. But that's another story.
But I did not understand this system until years into it,
when I finally forced my writer got the ability to
(13:19):
go into a library and sit down and read the contracts.
And just to help everybody understand, I knew, because of
what I was doing in air Compliance and down in Washington,
that if I made enough phone calls, i'd find somebody
that would read these. So I was allowed into the library,
(13:39):
and I was allowed to take all the notes I wanted,
but I could not copy anything, and I could not
use anything directly. Now what made it so easy is one,
I know contracts too. They're all the same. I don't
care whether you're looking at Pennsylvania or California or Florida.
These are essentially, from a legal standpoint, identical contracts in
(14:01):
terms of conditions. Once I understood those, then I had
the basis to take the system apart. Because like coverage,
if you're buying insurance, the first thing they're going to
tell you is what's covered, right, But the first time
they say it's not covered, they deny the very thing
(14:23):
they said up front was coverage. They use coverage two
different ways. It's what they claim they might cover where
they don't say it that way. So when they actually
deny coverage, well that's not a covered benefit. Well, if
you get caught in that loop and haven't read the
contracts to separate the two totally different, separate termament definitions,
(14:49):
do how do you confront that? How do you deal
with it? But let me jump a little further out.
We can take this thing apart because these are smart people,
and they've been doing it for a while.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Sure so, and they've got lots and lots of lawyers.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
There's lots of room to argue about the little pieces
here and there and what they've done. But the fundamental
point is that they want to ration our healthcare and
the only way they can do that is to deny
all payment when they deny coverage.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
All right, we're going to pause on that thought. We're
going to come right back to that after one minute.
Everybody will be back with Frank Lob In just one minute.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
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Speaker 3 (16:39):
We're back with franklob author of the Big Lie in
My Healthcare Bility. You just dropped the bomb. They want
to ration care. I think we've I think many people
know that conceptually, but I don't think they can prove
that or even test it legally, you know, at least
from an individual patient's perspective. Dig in, well, this is
(17:01):
gonna be fun.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
That's the fun with this. In the very in the
Internet introduction, you mentioned that I had promised my wife
not to write another healthcare Yeah. Yeah, because I finally
had the answer. And the answer is I no longer
have to fight them. I only have to ask the
right question. Because the thing, there's a thing called the
Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. And what that says is
(17:24):
if I write a letter asking a couple of questions,
reasonable questions about the bill, they have to answer the
questions or they cannot enforce the bill. Well, the questions
I would ask about the pricing and the cost of
this and that are really simple and they're in the book.
There's letters in the book, I mean, really simple things
(17:45):
to do. But they can't answer them because the contracts
I'm talking about have a confidentiality provision that doesn't allow
any of that information to be disclosed.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
So who are you writing a letter to the doctor
or the insurance company?
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Well, the tak Host hospital Okay, right, okay, because I mean,
let's not go to war with our doctors because we
need a good doctor. That's our access point. If we
shut that down, we have no access period. Issue really
is the big bill with the healthcare the hospitals of
across the country, and that's where the money is spent.
(18:21):
And only something like seven percent of all the bills
really are out of network. So what we're talking about
are the in network hospitals across the country that have
the same contracts that I'm referring to as provider contracts
or provider agreements. Okay, and they bar all payment when
the insurer says no to coverage. They're not allowed to
(18:43):
take any money whatsoever.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Matter.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
We got a fumble for a minute, but yep, take
it done, charl The provider bill, charge, collectedy, pauses, seek compensation,
remuter or reimbursement, or have any recourse against the covered
person or persons. In other words, you can't bill, you
can't take money, they can't do anything. That's what the
(19:12):
providers have agreed to. But since you've never seen it,
your listeners have never seen it. And there's another neat
little These are smart people. There's a thing that most
people don't know about. Also, it's called a thirty day window.
It's actually for collection, but it gets lost. And who
is a collection agency and who isn't? And the way
(19:33):
it works is that thirty days after the issuing of
a bill, if you haven't properly refuted it, contested it
in writing to the right person, it's accurate in law.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
For enforcement's email considered in writing.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
It's considered accurate and enforceable. So well, you're making your
phone calls to the insurance company coverage, which they have
no obliguy to give you the bills ticking away on
it's thirty day at the provider and your toast, because
at the end of the thirty days, whether it's when
(20:13):
I say, I want to be careful here. The bill
was originally written for collection agencies, but it's very difficult
to tell whether it's a collection agency or whether it's
the provider, and so forth. The point is, after thirty days,
the clock has run out and you don't really have
a right to contest it. Now, when I said earlier
(20:33):
that I finally had my answer. The Financial Consumer Protection Bureau,
which Trump is kind of decimated, but they published studies
and so forth, and something like eighty percent of the
hospitals are an error. Hospital bills are an error.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
I saw that unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
Yeah, we have a right to ask for a bill
that we can understand, and let me just say it
and keep it simple. They can't do it. So if
we write a simple letter asking for a bill we
can understand, they can't give it to us. And let
(21:11):
me give you a simple example. And now this one
actually was Medicare, but it's the same thing. And I
had a small operation. I had to have it surgically.
I have a tooth and remove surgically. And I was
actually in the operator. We're ready for them to start,
and two people commit with a credit card machine who
won three thousand dollars before they do that, before they seed?
(21:34):
And I have four policies. Anyway, I didn't win the argument,
so I gave him a credit card, got the operation,
and I came out, and I immediately called my credit
card company, disputed it, and I sent a letter to
the State of Pennsylvania contesting the bill. I had the
three thousand dollars back immediately, and they never once tried
(21:59):
to defend the bill. Well never. They sent me two
invitations to come back for a follow up procedure, and
they sent me a birthday card. Now you tell me
if you if I had actually stiffed them and owed
them three thousand dollars to you, they would have not
(22:20):
come after me.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Not likely.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
No, they have no legal standing. Simply, I simply had
to ask.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Well, the practice of doing that in that dramatic moment
in the r anyway seems ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Well, it is. But had I given them the three
thousand dollars and not known what I know and how
to contest it, and what's in the book. I've lost
three thousand dollars. And the only reason I bring up
that example because it's personal. Know it will, but the
fraud is so big and so real that if you
(22:59):
ask the question and disclose it, the system blows up.
And I have a very good friend who is a
former director of billing from one of the largest hospitals
in the area, and I asked him about this, and
he says, if I got a letter like that, i'd
round trash it. I'd put it in the trash can
and move on, which is what they do. So I'm
(23:22):
not telling you that we can fix the system, but
I am telling you, rather than read all the books
that just pardon my language, but bitch about the way
it is. Why not understand how they're playing the game
and then per Einstein play it better than they do
and call them on their own game. In other words,
(23:42):
I don't owe the money.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
So do you feel they're being I mean, if I
should choose the words carefully or just say what I'm thinking.
Do you feel like they're being dishonest in the design
of their quote program?
Speaker 4 (23:57):
I cover it in the book, and it's a very
good question. I mean, are all these people crooks? No industry?
I work for the industry, and there are ethics issues
and so forth. If you go back and look at
how healthcare was developed, I equate it to being on
a pond and you step out on thin ice and
(24:18):
every step you take that's not so bad, and then
you get so far out on the ice you can't
turn around. And so what I think, at least I
would describe it is they took step by step by
to where we are today, and now nobody knows how
to turn around because this is a four point three
trillion dollar market that's with a d trillion, and they're
(24:42):
making hand money, hands over fist.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Hard to turn that off.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
We're not in trouble. They separate their money, they have
the trust fund and the Dolman funds and so forth,
and then they do their operating costs. They're fine. And
what we have is what called it economics and an
inelastic market where we've given the insurance companies monopolies. They
(25:08):
own their territories, they can charge and do whatever they
want because there is no competition. And you know we
get from Washington, well, what we need is competition. Are
you kidding me. You're talking about healthcare costs. How many
people really shop hospitals when they need care? Not many?
(25:29):
And even then, how would you know there are seventy
seven thousand different billing codes?
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Is that where most of the errors are?
Speaker 4 (25:38):
Is that?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
What is that where most of the errors are? If
it's an eighty plus percent error rate on these bills,
do you think it's mostly in the codes?
Speaker 4 (25:48):
One could infer that I'm not going to do that
because I know that they have no right to build
me in all kinds of areas to start with. So
if I throw that in the eighty percent, that sounds small.
I had breakfast a number of years ago with a
doctor and his wife. There were both doctors, large hospital
(26:09):
down in Maryland, and I brought this issue up and
they both broke out laughing, and they what they said
was that over sixty percent of the bills are created
in the billing office, not in the hospital. So that's
just hearsay, that's just people. But if you think about it,
with seventy seven thousand billing codes, they can't even agree
(26:32):
on how to use them, because you can combine them
into a single code, or you could split them up
and build them separately. The hospitals prefer to split them
up because they can build more, and the insurance companies
prefer to collect them and bill them as a single
code under a number of codes, because then they can
(26:53):
pay less. So what the truth just number is I
don't know, but it fees my book very well. Oh,
because what I said earlier was they really can't give
you an understandable bill, and under law they have an
obligation to do that. And fortunately there have been enough
studies and enough work done by the Financial Consumer Protection
(27:15):
Bureau that we can cite them and simply, in all
due honesty, say I want to get this bill paid,
but you need to help me. Help me understand my bill,
and they can't do it. And so what I would
say to everybody here is, you know, my dad taught
me a long time ago, you have to be able
to take care of yourself, and if you don't, you
(27:37):
deserve what you get. I'm not, but it would be,
it would advise.
Speaker 6 (27:42):
It would be, it would serve everybody well if they
simply read it and understood it's not a very long
book and at least understand the system, as Einstein said,
then you can decide how you're going to play it,
but I recommend you play it better at least the hospitals.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Well, I didn't read the book before the show. I
did order it. It's on the way, so I will
be reading it because I just think. I mean, I've
I'm not a genius. Okay, I like to think I'm
pretty smart, but I'm not a genius. I'm simply saying
everybody knows what I'm about to say. Healthcare is broken,
and you know, the attempt to fix it made it
worse in my opinion, and I'm if I were a doctor,
(28:23):
I wouldn't I'd be frustrated. And many doctors, at least
general practitioners, they're they're going into research, they're consolidating. Our
doctor just left her practice for another one and a
big Massachusetts group like the gold Standard group, and now
she's going to another one. So even they say it's
messed up, you know, they can't make sense of it,
and we don't. I mean, what would you say to
(28:44):
somebody that says, oh, you're just trying to game the system,
and I don't believe this, but just the critics might say,
you're just trying to gain the system. You found a
loophole to not pay for what you should be paying.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
What I'm at a hardware business. Yeah, yeah, I have
to adhere to my contracts, right sure. If I contract
to pay something, I gotta pay it. There's nothing in
my book that doesn't talk about the contracts that they
have obligated themselves and to us to perform. All I'm
(29:18):
saying in the book, don't stiff them, just pay what's
the contract demands? Okay? Point in our system, healthcare system,
if you don't take care of yourself, you're going to
get hurt because we are going to lose twenty percent
of our doctors. Oh next, but ten years twenty.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Percent and we're hard enough now.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
It already takes three weeks to see a doctor. What
is the credo within a hospital emergency room when you go,
it's treat them and streatom. That's not my term, that's theirs.
Do as little as you can and throw them out
the door, or to go see their doctor. That's the system. Now,
(30:04):
I'm not really here criticize it, right, go down, okay, right,
I'm just saying that as an individual, I've learned how
to deal with the system they.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Have, all right, let's hold that thought. We're going to
get one more commercial in. We'll be back in about
sixty seconds with Folk Club.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
You're listening to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helene on
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And now back to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helene,
presenting exciting topics and expert guests with one goal in
mind to help you succeed in business. Here once again
is Kevin Helena.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
We're back with Frank Lob, author of The Big Lie
in my healthcare bill? What do you want people to know?
Practically speaking? Like, for example, my question is, and you've
answered a little bit of this, do I alienate my doctor?
Speaker 7 (31:50):
No?
Speaker 3 (31:50):
You said you shouldn't, and I agree. How about the hospital?
Do I alienate the hospital? Do I need an attorney?
Does this affect my credit score? Can you answer some
of those questions?
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Well, there's a pretty much an agreement anymore that they
can't even enter it in your record for nonpayment. But
I think it's one hundred and eighty days, and healthcare
bills have become notorious for misreporting, so there's been a
(32:20):
lot of work to stop it. And I'm going to
argue that if you follow my book, it won't ever
get to one hundred and eighty days. I'm going to
say it this way. I don't have to be right here.
I'll invite anybody within the healthcare system to come in
and tell me where I'm wrong. Now, I've talked to them,
(32:42):
and every time I've gotten to the subjects of book
tell me where I'm wrong, They've left the room. And
I'm not joking. My wife and I had dinner and
we happen to sit at a bar at golf club,
and there was a guy sitting next to me, and
I had my book with me and I had it
laying on the bar, and we got into a discussion
on the book, and he obviously was going to make
(33:04):
fun of me and I clearly was an attorney until
he learned that I had read the contracts. Then he
literally and I do not joke, he literally left his
dinner on the bar and left the room. That's real. Well,
(33:24):
these contracts are as secret as you can imagine. They've
been declared by the States as proprietary documents not to
be released to the public. So all I'm saying is
I've had the opportunity to read them, and since I have,
I can share that with the public. And I'm doing that,
(33:45):
And if I'm wrong, all the industry has to do
is come tell me.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Well, the interesting nuance is, and I don't know if
people caught this, the contract is not between the insurer
and us. It's between the insurre and the provider BINGO.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
So what's wrong is the insurer is not enforcing its contract.
It's backing out of its obligation to provide coverage, knowing
that it can pass the bill onto the provider to
bounce onto you and in thirty days. It's real. It's
(34:22):
perfect system, and if we want to subject ourselves to it,
I guess that's anybody's choice. Or you can come tell
me where I'm wrong. But if you read these contracts
it is clear. Well i'll give you a quick example.
Every one of these contracts has a utilation review provision. So, okay,
(34:45):
you get coverage and you get the operation, and thirty
days later, this insurance company takes another look at it.
They call it a utilization review, and they go, oh,
we made a mistake, we should not covered this. They
then have the right to pull the money back.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
I've never had that happen, Thank god.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
Oh it's happened, Monny. Oh could give you examples and
big money. But what the people and even the attorneys
don't realize is that provision. Yes, the insurer can pull
the money back from the provider, but the provider is
absolutely barred from billing the patient. But they do, yes,
because you and I don't know that. We don't know
(35:28):
the money. You don't see the contract. If you got
insurance for anything else, you'd have a contract you could
review and then hold the people accountable. You have no
such contract. You have no ownership of what you have.
The provider, oh, I'm sorry, the employer owes it, or
(35:48):
you if you buy it yourself, the insurer owes it.
So you don't even have the right to sue because
you have no ownership. They basically close it off. It's
a great system from their side. Let's go to Einstein's world.
Let's learn how they're doing it, and then simply ask
a few questions and turn the system around in our favor,
(36:10):
because we're not going to get any more healthcare than
our doctor says we need, and we're not going to
have to pay any more or walk away from any
bill that their contracts don't say. We don't know. I
does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (36:24):
It does.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
It's convoluted, but you know it's the only all I'm
saying is why should I pay a bill that their
very own documents say I do not owe? And if
there's anybody in this business community can tell me how
to do that, I'm going to apploy it here in
my business because I got to make money.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
The hand of her vest If you could elude that,
you're consulting, So how and why not?
Speaker 1 (36:50):
How?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Why did this become your mission. I mean there, you
could be doing other things, right, you're going to do it.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
You're to do who I am? Yeah, I and and
he said, and I have a right to look back
on my life and have an idea who I am totally.
I mean a decision a long time ago to stand
up for what's right. And I've hurt myself career wise
(37:19):
any number of times by saying, ah, nah, I'm not
doing that. And this was so wrong that I had
to find out how and why I could be wrong.
But it just seemed terribly, terribly unfair and against everything
I do in law. And once I had it, I'm
(37:40):
really the only one with it. You find another book
with it, so my only choice is either to share
it or shut up and walk away. And you know
that's not right. That's not when my grandfather taught me.
I get a little mushy, but you know I still
believe right right ethics.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
So this may be an obvious question. Why don't you
think more people are aware of this? How is it perpetuated?
Speaker 4 (38:11):
It's completely counterintuitive If I call it insurance, every other
insurance I owe what isn't paid?
Speaker 3 (38:20):
All right, So you did make the point this is
not insurance.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
No, it's not.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
What would you say, what is it?
Speaker 4 (38:27):
I have an attorney come in and told me how
it's insurance. It's not okay, and it just doesn't meet
the definition of insurance. As a matter of fact, originally
it wasn't called insurance, but there's some tax benefits from
being called and ensure, so it got Let me put
it around another way. In the state and state law,
(38:49):
you have a right to call yourself pretty much what
you want to call yourself. That doesn't mean you're really
an insurance company. So I can label myself as insurance
without meeting the needs of an insurance cump me. And
these are smart people. And by the way, this is
not a very simple solution or to solve. I just
(39:12):
believe if we're honest and we get in the room
and we talk about the needs of both the country
and the people, we could find an answer as long
as we stay within the truth and not try to
play games with it. And what's happened here is they
and tell you very quickly they started originally giving all
the care you need for a very simple monthly payment.
(39:34):
That was the model, and that was back in around
nineteen twenty nine. Well, as healthcare became more expensive, they
began looking for ways to cut costs deny coverage. So
the old model was all the care you needed for
a small upfront payment. They were never able to change it.
(39:57):
They were able to pull it back from the MA marketplace.
So they've kept all the care that you need. Look
at the TV commercials, but will you get it all
except when you need it? And then little by little
they look for clever ways to deny coverage but carry
it back to actual care. And let media say it
(40:20):
this way. If I had been successful upfront when my
wife was ill and had been allowed to pay, I
could have taken them into court and they'd a lost
because it was definitely necessary health care promise, not that
theiry health care. They have no right to deny it,
and a jury would have given me the verdict. They
(40:42):
know that they can't afford to have this go into court.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
So why is there not And maybe there is and
we just haven't talked about it yet. Why is there
no pushback?
Speaker 4 (40:54):
Nobody knows to push back.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Like you're dealing with companies. You're bringing awareness to this
show and others. You're telling me, you're telling you know
thousands of people listening and watching at some point. It's
a ground swell, and you haven't experienced any pushback yet.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
I I'm gonna say it this way. I think if
we try to fix the system, we're just we're wasting
our time. I'm focused on helping you and your individually
fix it themselves, because the laws are still there. The
doctor still works for me. I don't care who pays
(41:33):
him the losses. He's mine, Okay. And I've never found
a doctor yet that when I reminded Dame of of
that didn't appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:42):
And when I remind them that I of the payment
and the system and I don't know what the insurer
fails to pay, they know and appreciate it because that's
the system they're working in. Okay. So they don't like
this system any better than you do.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Yeah, just going to say, I've had conversations with doctors
and nurses and providers and they don't like the system.
Speaker 4 (42:04):
No. And by and large, they're not directly tied to
the payment. They're working for a much larger company and
have nothing to do with the billing. They're just giving
you there fifteen minutes of time and on to the
next and to show you how disconnected they are. Doctors
used to aim for something like eight hundred patients. They're
(42:28):
now being asked to service three thousand. Wow. Yeah. Wow.
I'm an engineer and I was suppressed.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Yeah, that math doesn't really work.
Speaker 4 (42:36):
You give me three thousand projects that I'm going to leave.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Yeah, and that's happening.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
Oh yeah, it's happened. And that's when the doctor comes
in and knows, you know, better than what's in the
on his flat screen on his laptop. But there's no
way he could know three thousand patients and know you,
you know, individually, and what's really Yeah, you know, one
last quick commenty here, Yeah, we're talking about AI. Think
of AI. How do you know who made the decision?
(43:04):
If you're using AI? I now know that if my
doctor makes a decision of what I need, it's him.
Look to him. He's responsible, just like an engineer. If
I build a bridge and put my name. If AI
makes a decision, who do we look to for the decision?
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Great point, let's hope it doesn't come to that.
Speaker 4 (43:26):
It's huge. I mean, you can't say, well the software
did it. Somebody at least an r system of law
has to be responsible for putting their name on the
document and computer. And by the way, there was a
period of my time when I designed computer systems. Anyway,
it's once systems get that complicated, you cannot understand the mind,
(43:51):
cannot understand how we got here. So anybody that would
sign for the decision made on made I under an
AI system their mind because they'd have no idea how
we got there. So, by and large you asked me back,
why am I doing this? I have the information. I'm
(44:14):
just not somebody to bury it. I've done my best
to share it. I really do mean, I'm not writing
another book. I've had it fortunately, the Consumer Production Protection
Viewer and the Fardet Collection Practices Act, and the studies
that have been shown where hospital bills are so much
at error, and there's a real issue about bankruptcy across
(44:38):
the nation.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
With healthcare, and well you said earlier, but I've heard
it elsewhere. It's just medical bills are the number one
cost exactly.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
And I'm just hoping that the information I have in
the book is significant enough to help the individual deal
with this really very very large problem. Is trying to
solve the overall problem is that's too It's just too
big a shift to me.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
Yeah, as much as they tried a number of years ago. Yes,
Obama administration, and even if we said they had the
right intentions, well I think they made it worse.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
Obama had the same problem you and I are just discussing.
Obama is not insurance. Obamacare is simply the requirement that
you buy insurance.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
I'm the marketplace, Yeah, policies.
Speaker 4 (45:30):
In other words, he fell back instead of trying to
go for Medicare or whatever, a government model, he simply
adopted a model where you buy private insurance off the
marketplace or get it from your employer. Well, they ignored
the problem that we're discussing, or that it's in my book.
And I don't think I would bet heavy money he
(45:52):
didn't know it. People who have signed, you know, for
the legislation so forth. I'll bet you heavy money do
not know the way that that care is being denied.
There's the actual lynchpin in the system. And the lynchpin
is that they've able to deny all payment, which, by
(46:13):
the way, I can if you have more time, I
tell you, I give you great proof how it's not
only unconstitutional, but the states have gone way out of
the way to try to hide it. They cannot deny
us the right to pay for our own healthcare. And
so the issue is so big and they've done it
(46:34):
that if you raise it in a simple little letter
under the Fardet Collection Practices Act, they had no place
to go. I'm going to say it this way. The
emperor has no clothes.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Well, I bought the book twenty bucks delivered from Amazon.
Is that the best place to find it?
Speaker 4 (46:52):
Well, if you go to either killerbill dot com it
tells a QR code, it'll take you there. Or you
can go to Amazon and ask for it my name
or the killer bill dot yeah under the big lie
to your healthcare vital healthcare bill, but the name of
the book or killibill dot com on the website. That
both will take you there. And by the way, somebody
(47:13):
comes up with an explanation where I'm wrong, Yeah, I
welcome it.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
Challenge has put out there. The gallet's been dropped. So
two questions, who in the listening and viewing audiences may
want to reach out to you?
Speaker 4 (47:26):
And why?
Speaker 3 (47:27):
Number one? Who you say, who watching or listening may
want to reach out to you? And why?
Speaker 4 (47:36):
I think it's the individual. Yeah, because I originally thought
professionals would want to do it, and they are so
tied in the system, yeah, financially and whatever, they don't
want to touch it. I mean I really thought I
was an engineer. I would have read it simply out
of intellectual curiosity within my own professional Okay, I don't
(48:00):
find that to be the case. The people who are
closest to it don't want to touch us with a
ten foot poll.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
Well, there's no good answer to your point of the system, right,
no good answer there. So to your point again, goes
to the individual to take care of themselves.
Speaker 4 (48:17):
Short of really retooling the whole thing, rewriting it, restructuring it,
there's not you know, but there can be a solution
for the individual. And eventually, like most things in the
United States, money brings solutions.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 4 (48:34):
And if enough of us put our hand up and
ask a couple of questions, they'll have to address it
and we'll sit down probably come up with a solution.
Speaker 3 (48:43):
Well, that's why I want to get this word out.
I know it's grassroots, I know it's a long slog,
but getting this message out is important. It also speaks
to your entrepreneurial entrepreneurial nature. By the way, thank you
for serving for twenty more than twenty years twenty two
years in the Navy. Appreciate that he is. His name
is Frank Lob. The website is killbill dot com. You
(49:05):
can reach him there and you can also reach him
at his phone two six seven four four six three
eight two six Frank, we're out of time. Thank you
so much for being I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (49:14):
I do too. I really appreciated this and enjoyed the
discussion seriously.
Speaker 3 (49:18):
Thank you and thanks everybody for watching and listening this.
This is a show about business and business challenges. This
one happens to be personal. If you have concerns though
about the sales effectiveness of your company, whether your sales
team is you are very small or it's very large,
feel free to reach out to me on Facebook or
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(49:40):
at Winning Business Radio dot com. Our company is Winning Incorporated.
We are part of Sandler Training. We develop sales teams
into high achievers and sales leaders into true coaches and mentors. Hey,
we're not right for everybody, but maybe we should have
a conversation. Thank you, as always to one producer and
engineer extreme for another job well done. Be sure to
join us next week that's Monday, April twenty. First my
(50:02):
ghost would be longtime friend and author John Katie. He's
authored several books, including the new young adult urban fantasy
novel series Angela of Death. Until then, this is Kevin Helen.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
You've been listening to Winning Business Radio with your host,
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(50:39):
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(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Churchill said, those who failed to learn from history are
condemned to repeat it. Kevin Helen n believes that certainly
applies to business. Welcome to Winning Business Radio here at
W four CY Radio. That's W four cy dot com
and now your host, Kevin Helen.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Thanks everybody for joining in today. I am Kevin Hallanan
and welcome back to Winning Business TV and Radio on
W four cy dot dot com. We're streaming live on
talkfour tv dot com in addition to Facebook and that's
at Winning Business Radio. And of course we're available in
podcasts after the live show on many platforms, all the
ones you know, YouTube, iHeartRadio, Spotify, Apple again. Wherever you
(01:16):
find your favorite podcasts, we are there. The mission of
this show, winning Business radio and TV, as regular viewers
and listeners know, is to offer insights and advice, really
to help people avoid the mistakes of others, to learn
best practices. Those are the how tos, the what twos,
the what not tos, to be challenged and hopefully to
be inspired by the successes of others. Those consultants, coaches, advisors.
(01:39):
Today's an author, founders and owners, entrepreneurs. He's also an
entrepreneur people with expertise. But you know, virtually every successful
person I've ever had a chance to talk to has
had some form of failure in their lives and careers.
So while we all have to get our knee skin
once in a while, I'm driven to keep those scrapes
from needing major surgery. Let's endeavor to learn from history
so we don't repeat it. I've spent the better part
(02:01):
of my career equipping businesses to grow, and that's from
solopreneurs to small and medium sized companies all the way
up to the fortune fifty. I've seen some of those
companies win into varying degrees. I've seen some fail I've
had the opportunity to rub elbows with some of the
highest performing people around and with some who probably should
have found other professions. In my own businesses, I've had
lots of success, but some failures too, So I like
(02:23):
to think I've learned a lot from those experiences. And
of course you're going to hear from me my opinions
and insights. But anybody who knows, because excuse me, anyone
who knows me will tell you I've sometimes a hard
time staying quiet, Frank. But more importantly, together we'll hear
from experts, those consultants, coaches, authors, advisors, founders, owners, entrepreneurs.
(02:45):
And today my guest is Frank Club, retired US Navy
pilot and author of Ready, the Big Lie in My
Healthcare Bill. I was not I was intrigued, but then
not happy when I read this, and so you'll get
the same response I think. Frank lab is a retired
US Navy pilot with a long and distinguished career outside
the Navy, including roles as general manager for DuPont Processed
(03:07):
Instruments and then for DuPont's environmental services business. After retiring
from DuPont, Frank served as a principal consultant at Monsanto
and then Clean Air Engineering on regulatory law and compliance.
It was this extensive background in the law in compliance
that allowed him to be credited with forcing the EPA
to scrap three years of work on the Clean Air Act.
(03:27):
I want to hear about that and rewrite the compliance
section of the Act around his recommendations. And it was
this same background that excuse me and expertise that allowed
Frank to access and dissect the carefully hidden contractual provisions
that the healthcare industry uses to deny care and coverage
patients are owed from their health insurance. Now eighty six,
(03:50):
Frank lives on a two acre working farm with Angie,
his English wife, in Chester County, Pennsylvania, along with Angie's
seventeen ducks in their two English Springer Spaniels. From there,
together with their son and son in law, they own
and operate the leading hardware and supply business in the region,
and in keeping with his age and long standing promise
to Angie, Frank has promised this will be his very
last book on healthcare because he's finally found the solution
(04:12):
to the fraud and misrepresentation in the nation self insurance
that he has sought for so long. Frank, welcome to
Winning Business Radio.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Thank you very much. I already got to kick out
of the introduction.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Well it's a good one. I mean it's long, but
there's a lot in there, and I didn't want to
water it down too much. I want people to understand
who you are and how you came to this place something.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Yeah, I did force EPA to right the comply, sure, Eric,
but I didn't take away the environmental piece. I sent
them simply made EPA comply with the law as Congress
had written it.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Well, that still doesn't sound like an easy task.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Different In other words, I wasn't arguing what was right
or wrong right other than you can't do something other
than Congress dictated in the law. And it's pretty much
the same thing I'm doing here. There's a part of
the law, or at least in this case, it's contract
law that you can't see. And it took me three
years with the knowledge that I have to get access
(05:14):
to these contracts, and I'm honestly never bumped into anybody
except somebody maybe within the industry that's ever read them.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Well, that's unbelievable. Let me back you up. A little bit, though,
tell us about the business, a little bit about the hardware.
Cameron's right, Well.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
It's a We have about fifty employees and we're a
hardware supply business. We're the largest actually firearms supplier in
the southeast corner of Pennsylvania. Have a long hunting tradition.
We've got a two hundred acre farm that backs into
two thousand acres of woods and fields. And that's the
way we like to live. We live in the in
(05:54):
the big in the bigger world. But this healthcare thing
is simply I had a situation years ago where they
denied care for somebody in the family.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
And this was your first wife, right, yes, and she.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Died and I had offered to pay for it, I said,
when Blue Cross refused to pay, I said I'd pay,
and I was told I couldn't. They wouldn't allow me
to pay.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
All right, stop right there? How does that work? I mean,
that doesn't even make sense.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Well it does. Let's get into this.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Sure, Yeah, go ahead, we'll jump in.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Way back. Thirty five years ago, the Supreme Court ruled
unanimously that healthcare insurance companies could induce rationing the words
induce because they can't force it. An insurance company has
no legal right to determine what is appropriate healthcare.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
That's up to the docks right and escape period.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Okay, only your doctor can do that, and only the
doctor in attendance, not the guy down the block, only
the hold of your hand.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
So it's not a doctor at the insurance company. It's
not a doctor administrator.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
The right word there. Legally is no standing. I don't
care what he says. He can do what he wants.
But the thing is that the insurance companies have had
the power to decide what they're going to cover, and
if you look at their contracts, they give themselves the
power to deny coverage any time they want. But that's
(07:31):
not I.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Think we've all experienced that. But go ahead.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Yeah, but that's not enough for them, and that's what
I ran into. They don't just deny coverage for you,
They deny all payment for anybody that's in network. So
anybody that's got a contract with the insurance industry, when
they deny coverage, they bar everybody within the in network
(07:57):
community from accepting any for care for you.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
So that practically speaking, that ceases care for that particular
ailment or situation.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
And if you think about if you look at healthcare,
fifty percent of the family bankruptcies in the country are
for a healthcare bill. Well, that's not for a bill
for a doctor bill where you win, I spend thirty
bucks or one hundred bucks to go see your doctor.
That's for a hospital bill or you cancer.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
That's for major accidents.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Right, yeah, that's where a hospital bill can three days
can cost you one hundred thousand dollars. And so how
many hospitals you think are going to give you care
when they know they're not allowed to build for it
and it could cost thousands.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
All right, but they do build.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Well, well, what they do is they find a way
to say no. They make it sound like the whole
issue is the insurance. No, because the rules that they
have matter figure out. I have a podcast I just
wrote for a substack, and what I said was Einstein
said years ago that you have to know the rules
(09:10):
of the game and then play it better than anybody
else and everybody. Anything we know about health insurance is
deliberately false. It's not insurance. It's not yours. You don't
the bill is not yours. The contracts say they can
only bill the provider, the in network provider. Okay, and
(09:31):
we are assured of getting all the care that our doctor,
our doctor says we need, regardless of reimbursement. Now tell
me where that where you find that in any discussion
with your doctor, the hospital, or anybody within the American
healthcare system.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
All right, So I'm a patient. You know, I'm a
regular person like you or anybody else. I have a
series of doctors because I'm older. You know, I don't
have one pediatrician or you know, one GP because I'm
young and healthy. Stuff gets stuff happens when you get older.
So we have a series of doctors. We go there,
they treat us, then we get a bill. Well, in
(10:10):
other words, that's our perspective as patients.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Right, hardware business, I'm sitting in the office, and we
could send bills to everybody. That doesn't mean they're due
or they should pay us.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
But we pay them because we don't know otherwise.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Because we don't know any better. And if I could
do that in a hardware business, I'd be a billionaire overnight. Okay.
What do they do they tell you when you that
you have insurance it's an insurance product. No, it's not
under law, it is not insurance insurance. There has to
be a contract between you and the insured, and there
(10:47):
is no such thing. They make you think it's yours.
And when you go into any hospital, there's that little
piece of paper or on the wall you take responsibility.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
For every year, sign a little likenic signature every time
I go, sign the little electronic signature pad.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
You can't say you can't sell something when you surrender
the right to bill for it a long time ago,
when they signed these contracts, they surrender the right to
bill you so long as it's medically necessary care. And
any care you get from your doctor is medically necessary
(11:26):
by definition, because he's not allowed to give you anything else.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
All right, What about the instances where a doctor says
it's medically necessary but the insurance company says we don't agree.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Well, I can say it's not medically necessary. What basis
in law do I have to say that the insurance
company is simply using its hidden authority to deny coverage
any time they want and not telling you that you
can't be billed for it, but you're still owed it.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Okay, So take us back if you don't mind, give
me a little bit more of the specific around your
wife's situation. I mean you got hammered with bills. I mean,
how did you start to figure this out?
Speaker 4 (12:06):
Well, I had a lot of experience in reading contracts,
and so for the out of the Navy and I
went to work for DuPont and I became a general
manager and any process instruments and a few other things.
And I was supposedly very good at writing contracts. And
then I got off onto the environmental side because DuPont
was very deeply involved in finding the entire environmental at
(12:30):
least air compliance. And then I got into determining regulatory compliance.
And I toured the country with EPA, helping people understand
what constitutes compliance. So when I lost my wife, what
do you mean, how can you deny me the right
to pay for the care for my wife? So I
took him to court and we were in court for
(12:52):
eight years.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
This is a particular insurance company. Now yeah, okay, yes.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
But see how it's wrong then, because I sued the
insurance coming, they have a right to do what they did.
Now they lied like a rug. But that's another story.
But I did not understand this system until years into it,
when I finally forced my writer got the ability to
(13:19):
go into a library and sit down and read the contracts.
And just to help everybody understand, I knew, because of
what I was doing in air Compliance and down in Washington,
that if I made enough phone calls, i'd find somebody
that would read these. So I was allowed into the library,
(13:39):
and I was allowed to take all the notes I wanted,
but I could not copy anything, and I could not
use anything directly. Now what made it so easy is one,
I know contracts too. They're all the same. I don't
care whether you're looking at Pennsylvania or California or Florida.
These are essentially, from a legal standpoint, identical contracts in
(14:01):
terms of conditions. Once I understood those, then I had
the basis to take the system apart. Because like coverage,
if you're buying insurance, the first thing they're going to
tell you is what's covered, right, But the first time
they say it's not covered, they deny the very thing
(14:23):
they said up front was coverage. They use coverage two
different ways. It's what they claim they might cover where
they don't say it that way. So when they actually
deny coverage, well that's not a covered benefit. Well, if
you get caught in that loop and haven't read the
contracts to separate the two totally different, separate termament definitions,
(14:49):
do how do you confront that? How do you deal
with it? But let me jump a little further out.
We can take this thing apart because these are smart people,
and they've been doing it for a while.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Sure so, and they've got lots and lots of lawyers.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
There's lots of room to argue about the little pieces
here and there and what they've done. But the fundamental
point is that they want to ration our healthcare and
the only way they can do that is to deny
all payment when they deny coverage.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
All right, we're going to pause on that thought. We're
going to come right back to that after one minute.
Everybody will be back with Frank Lob In just one minute.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
You're listening to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helene on
W four CY Radio. That's W four cy dot com.
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Speaker 2 (16:19):
And now back to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helene,
presenting exciting topics and expert guests with one goal in
mind to help you succeed in business. Here once again
is Kevin Helena.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
We're back with franklob author of the Big Lie in
My Healthcare Bility. You just dropped the bomb. They want
to ration care. I think we've I think many people
know that conceptually, but I don't think they can prove
that or even test it legally, you know, at least
from an individual patient's perspective. Dig in, well, this is
(17:01):
gonna be fun.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
That's the fun with this. In the very in the
Internet introduction, you mentioned that I had promised my wife
not to write another healthcare Yeah. Yeah, because I finally
had the answer. And the answer is I no longer
have to fight them. I only have to ask the
right question. Because the thing, there's a thing called the
Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. And what that says is
(17:24):
if I write a letter asking a couple of questions,
reasonable questions about the bill, they have to answer the
questions or they cannot enforce the bill. Well, the questions
I would ask about the pricing and the cost of
this and that are really simple and they're in the book.
There's letters in the book, I mean, really simple things
(17:45):
to do. But they can't answer them because the contracts
I'm talking about have a confidentiality provision that doesn't allow
any of that information to be disclosed.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
So who are you writing a letter to the doctor
or the insurance company?
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Well, the tak Host hospital Okay, right, okay, because I mean,
let's not go to war with our doctors because we
need a good doctor. That's our access point. If we
shut that down, we have no access period. Issue really
is the big bill with the healthcare the hospitals of
across the country, and that's where the money is spent.
(18:21):
And only something like seven percent of all the bills
really are out of network. So what we're talking about
are the in network hospitals across the country that have
the same contracts that I'm referring to as provider contracts
or provider agreements. Okay, and they bar all payment when
the insurer says no to coverage. They're not allowed to
(18:43):
take any money whatsoever.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Matter.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
We got a fumble for a minute, but yep, take
it done, charl The provider bill, charge, collectedy, pauses, seek compensation,
remuter or reimbursement, or have any recourse against the covered
person or persons. In other words, you can't bill, you
can't take money, they can't do anything. That's what the
(19:12):
providers have agreed to. But since you've never seen it,
your listeners have never seen it. And there's another neat
little These are smart people. There's a thing that most
people don't know about. Also, it's called a thirty day window.
It's actually for collection, but it gets lost. And who
is a collection agency and who isn't? And the way
(19:33):
it works is that thirty days after the issuing of
a bill, if you haven't properly refuted it, contested it
in writing to the right person, it's accurate in law.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
For enforcement's email considered in writing.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
It's considered accurate and enforceable. So well, you're making your
phone calls to the insurance company coverage, which they have
no obliguy to give you the bills ticking away on
it's thirty day at the provider and your toast, because
at the end of the thirty days, whether it's when
(20:13):
I say, I want to be careful here. The bill
was originally written for collection agencies, but it's very difficult
to tell whether it's a collection agency or whether it's
the provider, and so forth. The point is, after thirty days,
the clock has run out and you don't really have
a right to contest it. Now, when I said earlier
(20:33):
that I finally had my answer. The Financial Consumer Protection Bureau,
which Trump is kind of decimated, but they published studies
and so forth, and something like eighty percent of the
hospitals are an error. Hospital bills are an error.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
I saw that unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
Yeah, we have a right to ask for a bill
that we can understand, and let me just say it
and keep it simple. They can't do it. So if
we write a simple letter asking for a bill we
can understand, they can't give it to us. And let
(21:11):
me give you a simple example. And now this one
actually was Medicare, but it's the same thing. And I
had a small operation. I had to have it surgically.
I have a tooth and remove surgically. And I was
actually in the operator. We're ready for them to start,
and two people commit with a credit card machine who
won three thousand dollars before they do that, before they seed?
(21:34):
And I have four policies. Anyway, I didn't win the argument,
so I gave him a credit card, got the operation,
and I came out, and I immediately called my credit
card company, disputed it, and I sent a letter to
the State of Pennsylvania contesting the bill. I had the
three thousand dollars back immediately, and they never once tried
(21:59):
to defend the bill. Well never. They sent me two
invitations to come back for a follow up procedure, and
they sent me a birthday card. Now you tell me
if you if I had actually stiffed them and owed
them three thousand dollars to you, they would have not
(22:20):
come after me.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Not likely.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
No, they have no legal standing. Simply, I simply had
to ask.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Well, the practice of doing that in that dramatic moment
in the r anyway seems ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Well, it is. But had I given them the three
thousand dollars and not known what I know and how
to contest it, and what's in the book. I've lost
three thousand dollars. And the only reason I bring up
that example because it's personal. Know it will, but the
fraud is so big and so real that if you
(22:59):
ask the question and disclose it, the system blows up.
And I have a very good friend who is a
former director of billing from one of the largest hospitals
in the area, and I asked him about this, and
he says, if I got a letter like that, i'd
round trash it. I'd put it in the trash can
and move on, which is what they do. So I'm
(23:22):
not telling you that we can fix the system, but
I am telling you, rather than read all the books
that just pardon my language, but bitch about the way
it is. Why not understand how they're playing the game
and then per Einstein play it better than they do
and call them on their own game. In other words,
(23:42):
I don't owe the money.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
So do you feel they're being I mean, if I
should choose the words carefully or just say what I'm thinking.
Do you feel like they're being dishonest in the design
of their quote program?
Speaker 4 (23:57):
I cover it in the book, and it's a very
good question. I mean, are all these people crooks? No industry?
I work for the industry, and there are ethics issues
and so forth. If you go back and look at
how healthcare was developed, I equate it to being on
a pond and you step out on thin ice and
(24:18):
every step you take that's not so bad, and then
you get so far out on the ice you can't
turn around. And so what I think, at least I
would describe it is they took step by step by
to where we are today, and now nobody knows how
to turn around because this is a four point three
trillion dollar market that's with a d trillion, and they're
(24:42):
making hand money, hands over fist.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Hard to turn that off.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
We're not in trouble. They separate their money, they have
the trust fund and the Dolman funds and so forth,
and then they do their operating costs. They're fine. And
what we have is what called it economics and an
inelastic market where we've given the insurance companies monopolies. They
(25:08):
own their territories, they can charge and do whatever they
want because there is no competition. And you know we
get from Washington, well, what we need is competition. Are
you kidding me. You're talking about healthcare costs. How many
people really shop hospitals when they need care? Not many?
(25:29):
And even then, how would you know there are seventy
seven thousand different billing codes?
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Is that where most of the errors are?
Speaker 4 (25:38):
Is that?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
What is that where most of the errors are? If
it's an eighty plus percent error rate on these bills,
do you think it's mostly in the codes?
Speaker 4 (25:48):
One could infer that I'm not going to do that
because I know that they have no right to build
me in all kinds of areas to start with. So
if I throw that in the eighty percent, that sounds small.
I had breakfast a number of years ago with a
doctor and his wife. There were both doctors, large hospital
(26:09):
down in Maryland, and I brought this issue up and
they both broke out laughing, and they what they said
was that over sixty percent of the bills are created
in the billing office, not in the hospital. So that's
just hearsay, that's just people. But if you think about it,
with seventy seven thousand billing codes, they can't even agree
(26:32):
on how to use them, because you can combine them
into a single code, or you could split them up
and build them separately. The hospitals prefer to split them
up because they can build more, and the insurance companies
prefer to collect them and bill them as a single
code under a number of codes, because then they can
(26:53):
pay less. So what the truth just number is I
don't know, but it fees my book very well. Oh,
because what I said earlier was they really can't give
you an understandable bill, and under law they have an
obligation to do that. And fortunately there have been enough
studies and enough work done by the Financial Consumer Protection
(27:15):
Bureau that we can cite them and simply, in all
due honesty, say I want to get this bill paid,
but you need to help me. Help me understand my bill,
and they can't do it. And so what I would
say to everybody here is, you know, my dad taught
me a long time ago, you have to be able
to take care of yourself, and if you don't, you
(27:37):
deserve what you get. I'm not, but it would be,
it would advise.
Speaker 6 (27:42):
It would be, it would serve everybody well if they
simply read it and understood it's not a very long
book and at least understand the system, as Einstein said,
then you can decide how you're going to play it,
but I recommend you play it better at least the hospitals.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Well, I didn't read the book before the show. I
did order it. It's on the way, so I will
be reading it because I just think. I mean, I've
I'm not a genius. Okay, I like to think I'm
pretty smart, but I'm not a genius. I'm simply saying
everybody knows what I'm about to say. Healthcare is broken,
and you know, the attempt to fix it made it
worse in my opinion, and I'm if I were a doctor,
(28:23):
I wouldn't I'd be frustrated. And many doctors, at least
general practitioners, they're they're going into research, they're consolidating. Our
doctor just left her practice for another one and a
big Massachusetts group like the gold Standard group, and now
she's going to another one. So even they say it's
messed up, you know, they can't make sense of it,
and we don't. I mean, what would you say to
(28:44):
somebody that says, oh, you're just trying to game the system,
and I don't believe this, but just the critics might say,
you're just trying to gain the system. You found a
loophole to not pay for what you should be paying.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
What I'm at a hardware business. Yeah, yeah, I have
to adhere to my contracts, right sure. If I contract
to pay something, I gotta pay it. There's nothing in
my book that doesn't talk about the contracts that they
have obligated themselves and to us to perform. All I'm
(29:18):
saying in the book, don't stiff them, just pay what's
the contract demands? Okay? Point in our system, healthcare system,
if you don't take care of yourself, you're going to
get hurt because we are going to lose twenty percent
of our doctors. Oh next, but ten years twenty.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Percent and we're hard enough now.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
It already takes three weeks to see a doctor. What
is the credo within a hospital emergency room when you go,
it's treat them and streatom. That's not my term, that's theirs.
Do as little as you can and throw them out
the door, or to go see their doctor. That's the system. Now,
(30:04):
I'm not really here criticize it, right, go down, okay, right,
I'm just saying that as an individual, I've learned how
to deal with the system they.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Have, all right, let's hold that thought. We're going to
get one more commercial in. We'll be back in about
sixty seconds with Folk Club.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
You're listening to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helene on
W four CY Radio. That's W four cy dot com.
Don't go away. More helpful information is coming right up
right here on Winning Business Radio.
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Speaker 2 (31:14):
And now back to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helene,
presenting exciting topics and expert guests with one goal in
mind to help you succeed in business. Here once again
is Kevin Helena.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
We're back with Frank Lob, author of The Big Lie
in my healthcare bill? What do you want people to know?
Practically speaking? Like, for example, my question is, and you've
answered a little bit of this, do I alienate my doctor?
Speaker 7 (31:50):
No?
Speaker 3 (31:50):
You said you shouldn't, and I agree. How about the hospital?
Do I alienate the hospital? Do I need an attorney?
Does this affect my credit score? Can you answer some
of those questions?
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Well, there's a pretty much an agreement anymore that they
can't even enter it in your record for nonpayment. But
I think it's one hundred and eighty days, and healthcare
bills have become notorious for misreporting, so there's been a
(32:20):
lot of work to stop it. And I'm going to
argue that if you follow my book, it won't ever
get to one hundred and eighty days. I'm going to
say it this way. I don't have to be right here.
I'll invite anybody within the healthcare system to come in
and tell me where I'm wrong. Now, I've talked to them,
(32:42):
and every time I've gotten to the subjects of book
tell me where I'm wrong, They've left the room. And
I'm not joking. My wife and I had dinner and
we happen to sit at a bar at golf club,
and there was a guy sitting next to me, and
I had my book with me and I had it
laying on the bar, and we got into a discussion
on the book, and he obviously was going to make
(33:04):
fun of me and I clearly was an attorney until
he learned that I had read the contracts. Then he
literally and I do not joke, he literally left his
dinner on the bar and left the room. That's real. Well,
(33:24):
these contracts are as secret as you can imagine. They've
been declared by the States as proprietary documents not to
be released to the public. So all I'm saying is
I've had the opportunity to read them, and since I have,
I can share that with the public. And I'm doing that,
(33:45):
And if I'm wrong, all the industry has to do
is come tell me.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Well, the interesting nuance is, and I don't know if
people caught this, the contract is not between the insurer
and us. It's between the insurre and the provider BINGO.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
So what's wrong is the insurer is not enforcing its contract.
It's backing out of its obligation to provide coverage, knowing
that it can pass the bill onto the provider to
bounce onto you and in thirty days. It's real. It's
(34:22):
perfect system, and if we want to subject ourselves to it,
I guess that's anybody's choice. Or you can come tell
me where I'm wrong. But if you read these contracts
it is clear. Well i'll give you a quick example.
Every one of these contracts has a utilation review provision. So, okay,
(34:45):
you get coverage and you get the operation, and thirty
days later, this insurance company takes another look at it.
They call it a utilization review, and they go, oh,
we made a mistake, we should not covered this. They
then have the right to pull the money back.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
I've never had that happen, Thank god.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
Oh it's happened, Monny. Oh could give you examples and
big money. But what the people and even the attorneys
don't realize is that provision. Yes, the insurer can pull
the money back from the provider, but the provider is
absolutely barred from billing the patient. But they do, yes,
because you and I don't know that. We don't know
(35:28):
the money. You don't see the contract. If you got
insurance for anything else, you'd have a contract you could
review and then hold the people accountable. You have no
such contract. You have no ownership of what you have.
The provider, oh, I'm sorry, the employer owes it, or
(35:48):
you if you buy it yourself, the insurer owes it.
So you don't even have the right to sue because
you have no ownership. They basically close it off. It's
a great system from their side. Let's go to Einstein's world.
Let's learn how they're doing it, and then simply ask
a few questions and turn the system around in our favor,
(36:10):
because we're not going to get any more healthcare than
our doctor says we need, and we're not going to
have to pay any more or walk away from any
bill that their contracts don't say. We don't know. I
does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (36:24):
It does.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
It's convoluted, but you know it's the only all I'm
saying is why should I pay a bill that their
very own documents say I do not owe? And if
there's anybody in this business community can tell me how
to do that, I'm going to apploy it here in
my business because I got to make money.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
The hand of her vest If you could elude that,
you're consulting, So how and why not?
Speaker 1 (36:50):
How?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Why did this become your mission. I mean there, you
could be doing other things, right, you're going to do it.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
You're to do who I am? Yeah, I and and
he said, and I have a right to look back
on my life and have an idea who I am totally.
I mean a decision a long time ago to stand
up for what's right. And I've hurt myself career wise
(37:19):
any number of times by saying, ah, nah, I'm not
doing that. And this was so wrong that I had
to find out how and why I could be wrong.
But it just seemed terribly, terribly unfair and against everything
I do in law. And once I had it, I'm
(37:40):
really the only one with it. You find another book
with it, so my only choice is either to share
it or shut up and walk away. And you know
that's not right. That's not when my grandfather taught me.
I get a little mushy, but you know I still
believe right right ethics.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
So this may be an obvious question. Why don't you
think more people are aware of this? How is it perpetuated?
Speaker 4 (38:11):
It's completely counterintuitive If I call it insurance, every other
insurance I owe what isn't paid?
Speaker 3 (38:20):
All right, So you did make the point this is
not insurance.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
No, it's not.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
What would you say, what is it?
Speaker 4 (38:27):
I have an attorney come in and told me how
it's insurance. It's not okay, and it just doesn't meet
the definition of insurance. As a matter of fact, originally
it wasn't called insurance, but there's some tax benefits from
being called and ensure, so it got Let me put
it around another way. In the state and state law,
(38:49):
you have a right to call yourself pretty much what
you want to call yourself. That doesn't mean you're really
an insurance company. So I can label myself as insurance
without meeting the needs of an insurance cump me. And
these are smart people. And by the way, this is
not a very simple solution or to solve. I just
(39:12):
believe if we're honest and we get in the room
and we talk about the needs of both the country
and the people, we could find an answer as long
as we stay within the truth and not try to
play games with it. And what's happened here is they
and tell you very quickly they started originally giving all
the care you need for a very simple monthly payment.
(39:34):
That was the model, and that was back in around
nineteen twenty nine. Well, as healthcare became more expensive, they
began looking for ways to cut costs deny coverage. So
the old model was all the care you needed for
a small upfront payment. They were never able to change it.
(39:57):
They were able to pull it back from the MA marketplace.
So they've kept all the care that you need. Look
at the TV commercials, but will you get it all
except when you need it? And then little by little
they look for clever ways to deny coverage but carry
it back to actual care. And let media say it
(40:20):
this way. If I had been successful upfront when my
wife was ill and had been allowed to pay, I
could have taken them into court and they'd a lost
because it was definitely necessary health care promise, not that
theiry health care. They have no right to deny it,
and a jury would have given me the verdict. They
(40:42):
know that they can't afford to have this go into court.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
So why is there not And maybe there is and
we just haven't talked about it yet. Why is there
no pushback?
Speaker 4 (40:54):
Nobody knows to push back.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Like you're dealing with companies. You're bringing awareness to this
show and others. You're telling me, you're telling you know
thousands of people listening and watching at some point. It's
a ground swell, and you haven't experienced any pushback yet.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
I I'm gonna say it this way. I think if
we try to fix the system, we're just we're wasting
our time. I'm focused on helping you and your individually
fix it themselves, because the laws are still there. The
doctor still works for me. I don't care who pays
(41:33):
him the losses. He's mine, Okay. And I've never found
a doctor yet that when I reminded Dame of of
that didn't appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:42):
And when I remind them that I of the payment
and the system and I don't know what the insurer
fails to pay, they know and appreciate it because that's
the system they're working in. Okay. So they don't like
this system any better than you do.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Yeah, just going to say, I've had conversations with doctors
and nurses and providers and they don't like the system.
Speaker 4 (42:04):
No. And by and large, they're not directly tied to
the payment. They're working for a much larger company and
have nothing to do with the billing. They're just giving
you there fifteen minutes of time and on to the
next and to show you how disconnected they are. Doctors
used to aim for something like eight hundred patients. They're
(42:28):
now being asked to service three thousand. Wow. Yeah. Wow.
I'm an engineer and I was suppressed.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Yeah, that math doesn't really work.
Speaker 4 (42:36):
You give me three thousand projects that I'm going to leave.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Yeah, and that's happening.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
Oh yeah, it's happened. And that's when the doctor comes
in and knows, you know, better than what's in the
on his flat screen on his laptop. But there's no
way he could know three thousand patients and know you,
you know, individually, and what's really Yeah, you know, one
last quick commenty here, Yeah, we're talking about AI. Think
of AI. How do you know who made the decision?
(43:04):
If you're using AI? I now know that if my
doctor makes a decision of what I need, it's him.
Look to him. He's responsible, just like an engineer. If
I build a bridge and put my name. If AI
makes a decision, who do we look to for the decision?
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Great point, let's hope it doesn't come to that.
Speaker 4 (43:26):
It's huge. I mean, you can't say, well the software
did it. Somebody at least an r system of law
has to be responsible for putting their name on the
document and computer. And by the way, there was a
period of my time when I designed computer systems. Anyway,
it's once systems get that complicated, you cannot understand the mind,
(43:51):
cannot understand how we got here. So anybody that would
sign for the decision made on made I under an
AI system their mind because they'd have no idea how
we got there. So, by and large you asked me back,
why am I doing this? I have the information. I'm
(44:14):
just not somebody to bury it. I've done my best
to share it. I really do mean, I'm not writing
another book. I've had it fortunately, the Consumer Production Protection
Viewer and the Fardet Collection Practices Act, and the studies
that have been shown where hospital bills are so much
at error, and there's a real issue about bankruptcy across
(44:38):
the nation.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
With healthcare, and well you said earlier, but I've heard
it elsewhere. It's just medical bills are the number one
cost exactly.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
And I'm just hoping that the information I have in
the book is significant enough to help the individual deal
with this really very very large problem. Is trying to
solve the overall problem is that's too It's just too
big a shift to me.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
Yeah, as much as they tried a number of years ago. Yes,
Obama administration, and even if we said they had the
right intentions, well I think they made it worse.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
Obama had the same problem you and I are just discussing.
Obama is not insurance. Obamacare is simply the requirement that
you buy insurance.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
I'm the marketplace, Yeah, policies.
Speaker 4 (45:30):
In other words, he fell back instead of trying to
go for Medicare or whatever, a government model, he simply
adopted a model where you buy private insurance off the
marketplace or get it from your employer. Well, they ignored
the problem that we're discussing, or that it's in my book.
And I don't think I would bet heavy money he
(45:52):
didn't know it. People who have signed, you know, for
the legislation so forth. I'll bet you heavy money do
not know the way that that care is being denied.
There's the actual lynchpin in the system. And the lynchpin
is that they've able to deny all payment, which, by
(46:13):
the way, I can if you have more time, I
tell you, I give you great proof how it's not
only unconstitutional, but the states have gone way out of
the way to try to hide it. They cannot deny
us the right to pay for our own healthcare. And
so the issue is so big and they've done it
(46:34):
that if you raise it in a simple little letter
under the Fardet Collection Practices Act, they had no place
to go. I'm going to say it this way. The
emperor has no clothes.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Well, I bought the book twenty bucks delivered from Amazon.
Is that the best place to find it?
Speaker 4 (46:52):
Well, if you go to either killerbill dot com it
tells a QR code, it'll take you there. Or you
can go to Amazon and ask for it my name
or the killer bill dot yeah under the big lie
to your healthcare vital healthcare bill, but the name of
the book or killibill dot com on the website. That
both will take you there. And by the way, somebody
(47:13):
comes up with an explanation where I'm wrong, Yeah, I
welcome it.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
Challenge has put out there. The gallet's been dropped. So
two questions, who in the listening and viewing audiences may
want to reach out to you?
Speaker 4 (47:26):
And why?
Speaker 3 (47:27):
Number one? Who you say, who watching or listening may
want to reach out to you? And why?
Speaker 4 (47:36):
I think it's the individual. Yeah, because I originally thought
professionals would want to do it, and they are so
tied in the system, yeah, financially and whatever, they don't
want to touch it. I mean I really thought I
was an engineer. I would have read it simply out
of intellectual curiosity within my own professional Okay, I don't
(48:00):
find that to be the case. The people who are
closest to it don't want to touch us with a
ten foot poll.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
Well, there's no good answer to your point of the system, right,
no good answer there. So to your point again, goes
to the individual to take care of themselves.
Speaker 4 (48:17):
Short of really retooling the whole thing, rewriting it, restructuring it,
there's not you know, but there can be a solution
for the individual. And eventually, like most things in the
United States, money brings solutions.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 4 (48:34):
And if enough of us put our hand up and
ask a couple of questions, they'll have to address it
and we'll sit down probably come up with a solution.
Speaker 3 (48:43):
Well, that's why I want to get this word out.
I know it's grassroots, I know it's a long slog,
but getting this message out is important. It also speaks
to your entrepreneurial entrepreneurial nature. By the way, thank you
for serving for twenty more than twenty years twenty two
years in the Navy. Appreciate that he is. His name
is Frank Lob. The website is killbill dot com. You
(49:05):
can reach him there and you can also reach him
at his phone two six seven four four six three
eight two six Frank, we're out of time. Thank you
so much for being I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (49:14):
I do too. I really appreciated this and enjoyed the
discussion seriously.
Speaker 3 (49:18):
Thank you and thanks everybody for watching and listening this.
This is a show about business and business challenges. This
one happens to be personal. If you have concerns though
about the sales effectiveness of your company, whether your sales
team is you are very small or it's very large,
feel free to reach out to me on Facebook or
LinkedIn at Winning Business Radio. Drop me a note if
you want. One of my many email addresses is Kevin
(49:40):
at Winning Business Radio dot com. Our company is Winning Incorporated.
We are part of Sandler Training. We develop sales teams
into high achievers and sales leaders into true coaches and mentors. Hey,
we're not right for everybody, but maybe we should have
a conversation. Thank you, as always to one producer and
engineer extreme for another job well done. Be sure to
join us next week that's Monday, April twenty. First my
(50:02):
ghost would be longtime friend and author John Katie. He's
authored several books, including the new young adult urban fantasy
novel series Angela of Death. Until then, this is Kevin Helen.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
You've been listening to Winning Business Radio with your host,
Kevin Helene. If you missed any part of this episode,
the podcast is available on Top four Podcasting and iHeartRadio.
For more information and questions, go to Winning Business Radio
dot com or check us out on social media. Tune
in again next week and every Monday at four pm
Eastern Time to listen live to Winning Business Radio on
(50:39):
W four CY Radio w fourcy dot com. Until then,
let's succeed where others have failed and win in business
with Kevin Helenan and Winning Business Radio.
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