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October 11, 2024 4 mins

A sociology expert says the inequality is likely contributing to people leaving New Zealand in droves.

New Stats NZ figures show New Zealand had an annual net migration gain of nearly 54,000 people in the year to August.

The 134,000 departures are the highest on record — driven by more than 81,000 Kiwis heading offshore.

Auckland University sociology professor Francis Collins told Francesca Rudkin we need to think about what kind of society we have.

He says it's quite clear inequality has increased over the past few decades - evidenced by issues in the health system and housing unaffordability.

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So Kiwis are leaving the country and record numbers stats.
New Zealand figures show New Zealand had an annual net
migration gain of nearly fifty four thousand people in the
year to August. However, departures are the highest on record
at one hundred and thirty four thousand, driven by more
than eighty one thousand Kiwis heading overseas. So one hundred
and eighty eight thousand migrants entered the country, with Indian

(00:21):
citizens making up the largest group. I might have been
talking about that. Francis Collins is a psychology sociology professor
at Auckland University, and he joins me. Now, Hi, Francis,
franciscans to talk Nice to talk to you too, Hey.
How do these levels compare to the brain drain of

(00:41):
twenty eleven twenty twelve.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Well, it's actually quite markedly different in a lot of ways.
Back in twenty eleven twenty twelve, we were seeing a
lot of New Zealand citizens apartment. It's not quite as
high as we're seeing now, but pretty high. But I'll
get you. The difference back then was that the arrival
of non New Zealand citizens, so people from India you mentioned,
but from China, from the Philippines are much lower back then,

(01:06):
so we actually have an overall net loss of people
through migration, whereas all right now, as you mentioned, even
though the rate's coming down, net migration is very very
high by historical standards.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Do you think this trend of more people leaving and
fewer arriving is going to continue from the levels that we've.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Seen well, so that the flows of New Zealand citizens,
what you can say is that consistently over time there's
been very large numbers of New Zealand citizens who have
left New Zealand and not returned. That pattern is very clear.
Since the late nineteen seventies, around eight hundred to eight
hundred and fifty thousand New Zealand citizens have left and

(01:45):
not come back if we think about overall. But it
doesn't remain the same all the time, so there's a
lot of evan flows. So there are times when a
level of New Zealand citizens leaving and not returning is
much lower, and there are times like right now, particularly high.
And the same actually goes for migrant arrivals as well,
which which do it and flow, and they often they're

(02:06):
often associated with the economic cycle, but also also associated
when you know there are issues around inequality for example,
that can that can lead to increase increased migration as well.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
What does it mean for our skills? Will shortage our
labor market?

Speaker 2 (02:22):
Well, again, just come back to the point where there
is a very large number of departure of New Zealand citizens,
but the net migration rate is positive. In fact, it's
very high. So arguably there's actually there's actually an increase
in the number of people available or coming to New Zealand.
Many of them will be coming here to work. I
think the question is the difference between those groups, right,

(02:44):
we're talking about citizens and non citizens, and of course
then the mix of people in different occupations, which which
would need to get a bit more granular with the
data to really unpack that a bit more.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Do you know how we keep people here? It sounds terrible,
doesn't that we're going to lock among us something in front?
So how do we encourage people to stay in New Zealand?
You know, the people that we need to stay here?

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Well, I mean, I mean, from my perspective, we can't.
You can't keep people here, right, and New Zealand as
a kind of liberal democracy can't enforce some rules of
departure right, which some countries do do. It's relatively uncommon.
But what we can think about is what kind of
society do we have. And one of the biggest drivers

(03:27):
of immigration, and I would argue that New Zealand citizen
immigration is inequality. And it's quite clear that over the
last few decades inequality in this country has increased. You know,
it's evident and issues within the health sector and health inequity,
but it's it's evident in housing and affordability, in the
precarity and the rental housing sector. And I don't think
that's actually getting any better right now. So while immigration

(03:49):
is not new, and there's not there's not suddenly a
new pattern of New Zealand citizens leaving. It's been a
pad for some time. It is we have very high
numbers now, much higher than what used to be the
levels of immigration. I think a lot of that is
to do with the growth of inequality over many decades,
which you know, it's not really being substantially addressed by governments.

(04:11):
And for me, I would say, you want to address
immigration levels, you need to make me fe in an
inclusive society where there's a focus on social justice and
to focus on creating opportunities for people to see viable
lives for themselves and for their families.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
Francis, thank you so much for your thoughts. That was psychology, sociology.
Excuse me, sociology professor at Auckland University, Francis Collins. For
more from Hither Duplessy Alan Drive, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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