Minivans

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Go behind the wheel, under the hood and beyond with
car Stuff from how Stuff Works dot Com. I'd welcome
to car Stuff. I'm Scott, I'm Ben. As always, we
are joined by our super producer Alex Odyssey Williams and Scott.

(00:23):
I gotta say this one is uh, this is one
that we have talked about a lot off air for
one reason or another. Yeah, yeah, this is gonna be
a tough one on you. I feel, I feel, and
you know what though, I'm gonna try my best to
avoid the forbidden topic, but but it has to come
up occasionally, it really does. I just feel sometimes you

(00:43):
just push people, you know. You know, I'm not one
to kind of rub it in. A lot of a
lot of listeners have have liked to rub it in,
I guess, you know, to tease you along the way
because they know you're disdain, your disdain for certain type
of vehicle. It's a minivan, but not only that, a
certain rand and make and just go ahead and say it,
and and let's let's hear your how about this? How

(01:05):
about just a ten second version of of why that
particular vehicle we have to name it? But why? Why
does that bother you? Um? All right, Okay, I've got
a counter offer. I'll name it, and then at the end,
if we have time, I will make my case many
rant yes for any of any of you who have
not been acquainted with the Honda Odyssey any year, any

(01:29):
kind of modification, any sort of you know what. We'll
save it for the end. Okay, all right, Well, I
want to start off here. We've got a lot of
stuff to get to. We've got listener mail, We've got
all kinds of stuff that I do want to say,
and I hope this is the truth. I don't think
this is going to be a boring podcast. I think
there's a lot to talk about here. As you know,
we always try to take subjects that we think we

(01:49):
can you know, drawn some little known facts, some interesting things,
and some let's guess, a few facts and figures here
and there. But this is more, um you know, the
history of and and some developments, some twists and turns
along the way that I didn't see coming. Uh. There's
one in particular, one vehicle in particular that I doubt
would I would doubt that. Um, you know, five percent
of our audience knows of this vehicle that we're gonna

(02:10):
talk about that really lead to the development of the
modern minivan. You have to dig for that, and we'll
cover that one. But I don't think that this is
gonna be a a boring podcast in any way, I hope.
So anyway, we've got a twist and turns it's an
origin story. We get to the future a little bit.
We're not doing reviews of any minivan models or anything
like that, and and you know, we find that we're

(02:31):
in kind of a strange position because we haven't been
really defenders of minivans in the past, right, I mean
we've kind of been the opposite, not not really, I
mean a little bit along the way we said some
nice things about them, but like ten years or so ago,
I probably wouldn't have had the stance that I do today. Um,
I'm a little bit softer on the subject now. And
there's there's some reasons. Well, they've also not only has

(02:53):
technology in general evolved over the first time we'd ever
mentioned a minivan on this show, but also the concept
from the manufacturer and has evolved, and they're much more luxurious. Right.
But uh, if I'm correct, I think the nicest thing
I ever said about a minivan on air was along

(03:15):
the lines of it's your money, do what you want,
and it's probably accurate day, you know, And I think
we we'll also get to catch my off guard if
this is funny. Alright, So I think that if you
ask you know, ten ten people, let's say, or a
hundred people, let's say hundred people people, I think ninety

(03:35):
of them are gonna say that Chrysler invented a minivan.
But I think we're going to dispel that a little
bit in a way. I mean it's sort of it's
it's like a half truth. Really, Yeah, we're gonna we're
gonna bust a couple of myths maybe, and and uh
also we wanted to thank everyone who wrote in because,
like like many of our episodes, uh this is uh

(04:01):
listener suggestion, uh suggestion from a series of listeners. Yeah. Well,
we've been doing the show for a long time. I'm
what nine years now, something like that, and along the way,
we've had a lot of people who want to hear
about minivans. They want because you know, that's their vehicle
of choice, you know, the family vehicle. They'd like to
hear about them. So, uh, you know, finally, finally we're
getting to it. But um, you know, this year alone

(04:23):
in Seen, we've had a lot of requests as of
late for Minivans show. So let me read just maybe
two or three emails here of listener requests. The first
one just too simply titled Minivan episode question mark waiting
for it. So Weston B. Has written in Weston is
a say. He says, Hi, guys, I'm a longtime listener.
My name is Weston B. And I live in Indiana,

(04:44):
and I love your podcast. I was wondering if you
guys could do an episode of Minivans. And you know what,
he has a part in here that we can't really do. Uh.
He was asking for a top ten of what we
would recommend for the most comfortable and powerful. But we're
not Again, we're not really a review show. But we
can do a show about minivans and and way that
we normally do. So you can do an origin story.
We can also, I think along the way. Inevitably we

(05:07):
will compare at least some parts of this sure, I
guess so, but not not a full review in a
professional way. No, no, no, and it's severely unprofessional. We're
gonna be completely unprofessional today, all right, so and the time.
That's what next one is just called new listener And
this comes from s wortz U s S. I don't
know who S is, but says I'm a new listener

(05:29):
and I must say I stumbled on a pretty good podcast.
Well that's very nice, S. You guys do a great
job of getting good information out and bringing listeners into
thinking about things. I'm I know him a little bit late,
but I'm catching up quickly. Um and he or she says,
my opinion on luxury is something I taught. I was
taught at a young age. Luxury is defined as anything
beyond the basic needs. Some of us can afford a

(05:50):
little more luxury than others, and some people can afford
a much higher level of luxury. This brings me me
to one of my guilty pleasures. My daily driver is
a little mundane, but I have plenty of luxury atoms
to make it a little bit more exciting. I have
a pretty nice sound system, and yes, I crank it up.
I have all the bells and whistles, and I have
yet to find another vehicle to replace it with. Now
that I've built up the suspense, I guess it's time

(06:11):
to let you in. I drive a Chrysler Town and
Country minivan drivers here, So here's a Chrysler fan. Um,
I haven't yet heard a podcast on the workhorse of families.
That literal American highways litter. That's a funny word to
use there, that literal American highways, city streets and parking lots.
I'm a huge fan of the minivan, and yet I
have to agree the Honda Odyssey is not for me
with that lem by saying thanks for the great job

(06:33):
you do. All right, well, thank you. And then here's
someone who would disagree with with s who is a
Chrysler fan. This is a Honda Odyssey fan. I know,
I think I don't remember that. That's not snarky anyway,
it's not mean, but it does say, Ben, this one's
for you. Do a lot of these, right, Danio Dana
is the one who wrote it. I'm sorry I forgot
to mention that, but it was actually a note about

(06:53):
autonomous vehicle security to begin with. This is part of
a larger note, but one of the paragraphs is this.
I chuckle and slightly every time you beg on the
good old Honda Odyssey. I know you don't have kids,
and perhaps haven't been given the opportunity to develop an
appreciation for the minivan. I definitely understand your frustration with
the often preoccupied drivers of minivans and being stuck in
traffic behind them, But as far as minivans go, I

(07:15):
have to say, as a Honda Odyssey owner, these things
are built for battle. Battle with the wife and kids,
that is, that's kind of funny life. I have owned
other makes and models, and from my my experience, they're
the most mechanically sound. They're not nearly as underpowered as
many of the others, and their suspensions aren't quite as
much like a bowl of jello feeling as you get
when writing in a Dodge or Chrysler. Well, it's fighting fire. Yeah,

(07:39):
maybe we should get s worts together in the room
with Dana and let them battle it out. Will that
be a good idea? Maybe we should get them together
with like a demolition derby type thing in a minivan. Right,
we'll supply the vans, It's all right, so anyways, uh,
Dano says, I'm not sure I will win this argument,
but I wish I could change your mind to reference
the Dodge Caravan as the bane of your existence. But

(08:01):
until then, I'll continue to chuckle at your references of
the Honda Odyssey. Keep up the good work. So anyways
we get we get notes like that, you know, all
the time about minivans. So we decided that we would
we would definitely broached the topic today. And I think
that one thing that we should clarify here is that
we have done an episode much earlier, back in August

(08:21):
Woody Station Wagons and what do You station Wagons? That
podcast that kind of covered the birth of the station
wagon really and that's critical in the development of the
minivan as well. And we'll tell you the progression of
that in just a moment. But um can I take
a sidebar here? So I know we've been talking for
a good ten minutes already, or at least I have

(08:42):
about all kinds of stuff, but recently I did and
that's the sidebar I wanted to take here, is that
um I was gone for four days and this has
this has to do with automotive stuff, I promise. Um
I went to four different states that went to Missouri, Nebraska, Iowa,
and Kansas and mostly hanging out in the Omaha area
right around um uh um I guess right, around that

(09:03):
area that run that city across the river um in Iowa,
and I heard about a museum there. At least my
wife heard about this museum. We decided to take a
day trip to Lincoln, Nebraska and we went to a
place called the Museum of American Speed in Lincoln, Nebraska. Yeah,
I've heard of this. Yeah. Does it measure up to
the hype? It definitely measures up to it. Yeah, I

(09:25):
mean this is I've read this in a review, you know,
Like I went on line and read some reviews later afterwards.
I didn't know anything about the museum other than I
think we've had a listener to has mentioned this place before,
but they describe it as a hidden gym, and it
truly is. It's kind of tucked away in an industrial
complex area, like way, you know, outside of the city UM.
But this place is amazing. If you're anywhere near there,

(09:48):
I recommend going to it. You know. I did the
same thing with the Lane Museum. That's another one that
I really loved in the um Nashville area. But this
one is in Lincoln, Nebraska and it has something like
I think they have a a hundred and thirty cars,
but they have six hundred engines on display, six hundred
that are scattered throughout the museum all over the place. Uh.
They have a Harry Miller exhibit. Uh, that's completely Harry.

(10:11):
All about Harry Miller. We've done an episode the Engine
Designer building. They have the whole timeline of his life
on the wall. They have, um, I want to say
it's six or seven Harry Miller engines that are in
the room on stands that you can view and some
are cutaways. Um. They have his original drawing board there. Uh.
It's mostly mostly race cars, some street cars, a lot
of hot rods. Uh, their motorcycles. There are Land speed

(10:33):
record cars. There's current cars that not quite current race
cars but retired. Um. Probably I'm gonna get around this
number up just a little bit. They must have a
billion toys because the the automobilia, I guess if you
want to call it that, the collectibles and all that
they cover flour There's three floors of of museum space.

(10:54):
And they have pedal cars. They have tin toys model,
you know, like detailed model. They have die cas, they
have um tether cars, they have rail cars. UM, just
a little bit everything. Some are restored, some are unrestored car.
These are displays. You can't buy them or everything is.
Everything is display, and it's a it's part of this

(11:14):
place called and I'm good' gonna give you a tip
right now. It's part of this place. I think the
place that that pays for it really your sponsors that
really I don't know how that all works out. But
it's called Speedway Motors and it's right across the parking lot,
I guess from this place. It's actually called the Speedway
Motors Museum of American speed and Speedway Motors is a
race car warehouse. Like they not race car race car

(11:35):
parts warehouse. And so when you buy a museum shirt,
this is the tip. At the end of my my
trip there, I wanted to buy a shirt in the lobby,
so I went to I asked him about it, and
they said, you have to go over to the Speedway Motors.
So I walked over there and it's a parts counter
with this enormous warehouse. I mean the kind where you
know they ride on electric carts to get the parts.
But it's a huge place all race car parts and

(11:56):
street car parts and hot ride parts and all that.
It's really a cool place. You only get to see
the counter though, So I ordered a shirt over there,
and it takes them, you know, twenty five minutes to
get the shirt because that's probably in the back corner
because they had to get a guy on the cart.
He did. Yeah, he took a cart back to the
corner a bit to buy one shirt. It's crazy. So anyways,
totally worth it. But when he when he's handing me

(12:17):
back the shirt and my receipt, the shirt was only
like twenty bucks, right, So he hands it back and
he says, if you go to the museum yet, I said, yeah,
I just came from there. They sent me over here
to get the shirt, and he said, this receipt would
have been good for a free admission, So go buy
the shirt. By the shirt first, you get a free
admission into the museum, which is fifteen dollars. So I
spent fifteen dollars to get into the museums on the

(12:39):
shirt when I could have just spent twenty one dollars
in the shirt and got both things, you know, for
that price. But if it doesn't have an expiration date
and you just keep the the receipt, you know, the
thing is all right, did you keep the receipt. Well
I did keep the receipt. I still ever see because
I haven't unpacked yet. I'm back that recently. But um,
it goes to a good car. I mean, it's all
to keep the museum going. So you know, I I thought, well,

(13:01):
I kind of got taken on that, but then I thought, well,
that's actually for a great cost. And you look at
us a as a like a donation to the right, right,
if you want to look at it that way, sure
got you gotta remember those scott. A lot of those receipts,
even if they don't have expiration dates, the ink that
they're printed with will disappear over time, That's true. Yeah,
let's leave it out in the car and the dash

(13:22):
for a while and uh and see what happens. I
bet you could have you know what, somebody lives in
the Omaha area listening to this show, depending on Now,
this is very cheap, even for me, raffle it off
for just the price of a postage. Stay up, now, No,
I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do that, because honestly,

(13:44):
I mean, it does support the museum is absolutely incredible
and if if you can get there, go But It's
one of those places where when I walked in, I
immediately felt overwhelmed as well, because there's so much to
look at. There's no way. I went through and took
a lot of photographs of the car in the placard,
and then I moved on. And I know that's not
a great way to go through museum, but you get

(14:05):
to a point where you're on you know, the second,
third floors, and you just are running out of time.
The place is going to close down, so you're running
and gun. It was kind of like that. You It's
an incredible experience. So if anybody's in that area, I
haven't had a museum experience like that since I went
to the Lane Museum, and that says a lot that does.
Hey quick question though unrelated, Uh did you guys get

(14:26):
any steaks while you're out there? I still we were
talking about this earlier boy. Okay, so omaha steaks, right,
that's supposed to be the big thing. That's supposed to
be like a real big thing. Let me tell you something.
I I won't reveal where I was staying, okay, but
I went to a steakhouse that in in the facility
that I was staying that claimed to have Almaha steaks

(14:46):
and they did. You know, of course, it's right there.
I was disappointed, what I know, I know, I was
I was complete. I was blown away, but I was
expected the most perfect steak ever and nope, all in
like forty nine other states. Whenever Omaha, Nebraska comes up,
us carnivores are all about the hearing, about the steaks,

(15:09):
salivating right like like you think this is going to
be fantastic. And I've actually had Omaha steaks that have
been you know, like freeze dried and shipped and and
then grilled somewhere else. They're fine. I think it was
on the preparation. I think whoever created, whoever did this,
whoever was on the grill, didn't do the best job,
because I mean, it just wasn't good. It wasn't good.
I can't I can't give it a good rating. Well
you can't. You can't judge the entire industry by the

(15:35):
one steak. No, absolutely, And you know what I'm I'm
actually I'm kind of a defender, I guess. Of I'm
saying defender lam a defender of Omaha steaks, I guess.
And the and that I've had them in the past,
and they've been excellent. Yeah, this particular one not good,
not good. Sixty two bucks and it was not good
sixty two dollars yep. Steakhouse prices. Man, you could I

(15:55):
wonder if you could have given them that speedway receipt.
I know, you know what his expensive weekend. Let's move on, okay. Yeah,
and also for the record, I've I've never been to
Nebraska so far as where oh you know what, all
four states. I have nothing bad to say. It was
great and really really cool. First time in Iowa's first
time in three of those four states. Yeah. What was

(16:17):
the third one? Which Kansas? Kansas? Kansas? Um, Nebraska UM.
I had been to Missouri before, yeah, um and Iowa.
Al Right, well I'm I'm gonna I feel like I
have to go now. Well, I mean, I guess it's
you know, it's you check it off on the list
right museum, you know, like when you get the map
at home and you want to check off all the
states you've been in. Yeah, I want it took four

(16:39):
right there, I have a I have a world map,
and uh, you know, it gets to the point where
I feel like, before I die, I have a lot
of places to go. Otherwise this map is going to
look like on a global scale. I was just hanging
out in my apartment. I started even planning trips by
how far away they are from the other pins. So

(17:00):
I look like a more interesting person. Nebraska is far enough.
Good plan, good plan. I won't I won't say anything
bad about any of those four states. They were they
were great to visit. Yeah. I almost lived in Iowa
for a while. That right, Yeah, yeah, I didn't a
great story. Huh. I was. I was going to go
to grad school in Iowa. Oh really yeah, and then

(17:20):
I didn't. Well, now I feel silly for saying that. Uh,
you should not feel silly if you assume that. In
the November two three, the world's first minivan rolled off
the Chrysler assembly line. Thank you. Yeah, so alright, so Chrysler,
I mean, so we'll we'll get to this, uh this

(17:40):
more detail later. This is the fake opener. This is
the opener everybody thinks of, Yeah, that's right. This is
the nine eight four as an eighty four model year,
the Plymouth Voyager Dodge Caravan, and of course Plymouth you know,
went away. But but um, this is the one that
everybody thinks of as the modern minivan, the one everybody
can probably picture in their mind's eye, you know, as

(18:01):
the pretty boxy um has. Typically if you're you're thinking
of these, they're gonna have the you know, the fake
you know, vinyl wood on the side, you know, that
kind of thing to carry over from the station wagons.
That makes sense. And that all important sliding door, the
sliding door, which that that was really important. I mean
it's kind of again minivan the whole term. I mean,

(18:21):
this is a brand new segment, really um in because
we're coming down from full size vans, which a lot
of people had, a lot of families had those, um
and we'll get to the station wagons as well, I promise.
But the full size van was something that a lot
of families relied on as having uh, you know, high
seating capacity, high cargo carrying capacity as well. Um you know,

(18:42):
even more so than a lot of the station wagons
that were out there. You could carry you know, lots
of passengers and you know, up to a dozen passengers
or or you know nine and a lot of luggage
or something like that. But there were some problems with
the full size van as well. Two of the biggest
being the terrible horrific fuel like on me, especially if
we're considering, um, the time in which the time that

(19:06):
preceded the mini van era, you know, full size vans
during like a gas crisis. That's not a good look.
And then also the fact that, to allude to uh
Dano's earlier statement, full size vans just have terrible handling.
Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah, they're they're the tall vehicle and
a little sloppy because they know they've got a lot

(19:27):
of suspension travel because they're carrying heavy loads, lots of people,
lots of cargo. So um. And there are other problems
that we will get to when we get when we
start talking about another interesting vehicle that yeah, I don't want.
I don't know if I want to give it away
just yet. I don't think we should. Maybe we should
talk about like kind of where mini vans came from.

(19:47):
Hinted that you know, they're they're a small van. Of
course everybody knows that, but some sort of dare I
say miniature van? Yeah, if you're you're right on spot on.
I went to call stuff nearly in Iowa. Um, right,
So this all goes back to and I guess maybe

(20:07):
we probably covered some of this in the Woody Station
Wagons episode. I didn't listen to it beforehand, but I
think we did. It goes back to train travel, of
all things, I mean, and the way we get to
it is there's there's train travel and a lot of
people are using uh, you know, the depot there in
town or depot however you like to say it, It's
say depot in this case. Um. And with that came
something called depot hacks. And essentially these were taxis. These

(20:30):
are people that were shuttling people and you know, luggage
to and from the train depot. It makes perfect sense, right,
So this goes back to like you know, the model
T days, the early days of the automobile, and again
high high seating capacity, high cargo carrying capacity, and a
lot of times these depot hacks. If you can, you know,
do a Goo Google search for that word. Now those

(20:50):
two words, you'll find that, Um, these are open, open carriers.
Really a lot of them don't even have windows. Well, yeah,
this is still in the a of custom carriage work.
So a lot of these things were the engine and
the chassis and then having that shipped somewhere and then
having somebody probably local or regional, construct out of wood

(21:12):
and and uh mainly out of wood, uh a a
carapace and making the rest of the coach the word
thank you, thank you. Uh. I almost went to school
in Iowa, so it's fancy. Thanks fan. Yeah, we've got
to regret that joke. But but another important thing to

(21:34):
say here is this may sound familiar uh to some
of us out here because it's essentially fulfilling the role
of a hotel shuttle or an airport shuttle today. So
you know that which is a right still, so the
depot or the depot right is probably gonna be not

(21:56):
right downtown, you know, no exactly, or at least tells
usually don't want to be set up right next to
a train station. So we need that kind of short,
short distance transit. Yeah, that's right. And even if it's
in a small town, you still need to carry uh,
you know, all of that luggage that you know, you know,
it's funny if you think back to uh, you know,

(22:16):
the the excess luggage that people carried back in that
time in early I mean, it was more I guess
what would be a comparison like um, like camping versus glamping.
You know, like maybe like like when you're traveling versus
like when you're like taking a luxurious trip on a
on an ocean line or something. You have to get
to there, so you take all this luggage. I mean,

(22:36):
you might have ten pieces of luggage for a family
that you know, three um that are enormous, these big
old wooden care and that would well, I guess wouldn't
end leather cases that had the big straps on them
with all the stickers from where they've been. And people
had like just boxes for their hats. Yeah, well exactly,
which still blows my mind. I guess I've never owned
a nice hat cat box. Yeah, sure that. Anyways, these

(22:58):
are these are the wooden cars that were made by
you know, cabinet makers, coffin makers, you know, the people
that created things that would during the day. So the
depot hacks of the taxis then led to um enclosed
wagons and that was what we think of as a
station wagon that station. Of course, train station. It wasn't
just sta like going to the station, but that's kind
of where that word came from. And essentially station wagons

(23:22):
and depot hacks were sort of the same thing. Uh,
you know ballpark there there were enclosed finally they had
you know, windows, they had um, you know, better seats,
you know, maybe soft seats instead of you know, the
wooden benches that they had before. Um, the enclosed again,
the enclosed seating thing was big because prior to that
it was just all wide open and they had maybe
some rolled down curtains that were kind of writing in

(23:42):
a pickup bed. Yeah, like can't you know their canvas
or something, you know like that to cover you from
the elements. But um, the station wagons led to and
I'm just really blanket paraphrase in here, but the station
wagons then led to minivans. Now the many vans that
we talked about in the nineteen eighties or mid nineteen eighties.
So station wagons were around for a long long time
from the nineteen you know what, nineteen thirties up until

(24:05):
the mid nineteen eighties, and then the what I guess
we'll call them. I don't know if I'm giving something
away here, I'll say a worrier that will come up later.
Many vans were gradgeubal vans. Okay, that's a that's an
actual term. Yes, gradual vans and we'll talk about that later.
But many vans then now recently, I guess, have have

(24:26):
given over to crossovers, which are kind of like between
the suv size and station wagon size. And I do
want to point out here something. Now we've talked about
woody wagons and how important it were, and and you
know this is going right back to the woody days,
but there was a time when station wagons were extremely prestigious,
and believe or not, I mean, it wasn't always just

(24:47):
the grocery get her family wagon, and there were scaled
back versions that were that even even in the time
frame they're talking about, but there were also wagons that
catered to the wealthy, cater to the people that wanted
to take the you know, the country tours, like a
Schofford station wagon. I know it sounds weird now, but
that was a thing. As Elvis ask Elvis he had

(25:07):
he had a Catillac station anyways, um the nineteen for it.
Just for an example, and this is one that I
got from a psych called all par which is a
Chrysler Dodge site Jeep. I think as well. Uh, the
nineteen forty Chrysler Town and Country station wagon was the
most expensive station wagon for that year of it's of
its kind. And I thought they said it was the
most expensive car in the lineup. But I don't know

(25:30):
if that's true for Chrysler because they had some pretty
luxurious cars back in that day. But regardless, it was
the most expensive station wagon in ye and so you know,
it makes sense, most luxurious, most expensive. It was ballpark
price around five thousand dollars, which if you were to
take that into today's dollar amount, right around eighty three

(25:51):
thousand dollars, if you were to buy one today, you know,
at that price at five thousand dollars, Well, did I
say that right? I always get that mixed up? Five thousand.
That's a lot of cash, a lot of cabbage, a
lot of cheese, Yeah, exactly. So um. Again, the prestige
carried for a long long time, but then it kind
of lost favor. Absolutely true. And it may be in

(26:16):
some ways it may be a trends that we've seen
in other markets, where as it becomes more easily available
to you know, uh, your average like day to day
middle income John and Jane American, then a little bit
of the cache begins to wear away. Well, but by

(26:38):
no means that they've gone either though we talked about Yeah, yeah,
the lot of the European marks still make them, and
you raised a great point to about the type of
marks that make them, Yeah, luxury, luxury. So it's you know, BMW,
it's Mercedes's, um, well, Audie makes one as well. Volvo.
I guess I don't know if Volo is not really

(26:58):
what's called a safety wagon. Safety wagon, yeah, but it
probably has a lot of luxury features. And uh, let's
see who we say, BMW, Mercedes, I think, Cadillac. So
they're still being made in the United States as well,
it's just you see them more in Europe. Yeah, that's true.
That's true. And I'm not gonna be able to hit
every brand that has a station wagon still, but there
are even still some, uh, I guess you call them

(27:20):
economy or um, you know, um more standard I guess
brands that uh not luxury brands that that still offer
a station wagon as as a possibility. So there you
have it, folks. The general lay of the land, Scott,
I think we've done a pretty solid job of just
sort of tracing the big steps. Uh. And you can

(27:45):
already see how the story of minivans does not by
any means start in the early nineteen eighties. In fact,
we are going to let you in on some in
insider evolution of mini vans that you might not hear
in all the retrospectives that came out in two thousand thirteen,

(28:09):
two thousand fourteen, And we'll get to them right after
this word from our sponsor and we have returned. So
before the break, we talked about the basic evolution starting

(28:31):
the days of railroads right uh into station wagons and
how station wagons became a luxurious thing and then more
of a normal, everyday thing. And ultimately we said the
next big step was the minivan. But that's not entirely
the case. That's the abridged version, you know, that's what

(28:55):
we would say if someone said, tell us about where
many vans came from in three minutes. The real story is, uh,
I think much more interesting and has a lot of
twist and turns. And one of the coolest ones is
something that we personally saw at a at a museum
here in Atlanta. You see, way before Night three was

(29:20):
even a thing that people thought about outside of science
fiction novels, way back in nineteen thirty six, Uh, there
was a very unique and strange vehicle called the Stout scarup.
Someone very forward thinking came up with the Stout scarup right,
because um, that's one that we covered in Yeah, it

(29:40):
was the High Museum of Art here in Atlanta, right,
And we've got a video online if you want to
watch it about the Stout scarum and again ninety six,
that's what forty seven years prior to what we think
of as the minivan. But but if you look at
the stout scarum, uh, that has a lot of features
that are included in modern minivans, or at least in
minivans to begin with. Um had things like removable tables

(30:02):
and second row seating. Um, the front seats, I think
the second row. The first row seats I think turned
around to phase the second row. Uh yeah, yeah, the
second row seats could turn a hundred and eighty degrees. Gotcha.
Where you put the table up, so you could still
have uh, someone driving while everybody else was in the
back plane uno or something. You could play games or whatever.

(30:23):
I mean in a lot of ways. You know, full
size vans had a lot of the same features, I suppose,
but on a much larger scale. So you know, the
Stout Scarab is closer to minivan size than anything else.
If it's it's I don't know if that's the right
way to say it. Maybe, um, there were other vehicles
are bigger, but this one had minivan esque features maybe
like inside, maybe we call it minivan DNA. That's probably

(30:45):
a better Yeah, that's good. This is This is why
you will sometimes hear people say that this, uh, the
Stout Scarub is the world's first production minivan. But as
we know, it is difficult to rate something as the
first without several caveats. All right, well, yeah exactly. I

(31:08):
mean when every ever anybody says like this is really
the first one, it's not the first one that was
called a minivan. They didn't call it that, So I
guess Chrysler has the lock on that really because they
called it a minivan in nineteen eighty four. But going
back to nineteen thirty six, there's sure we're a lot
of features that made it, you know, a lot like
a mini van. Um. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, So there's
another company called d k W and d kW actually

(31:31):
you know what, we should talk about kW for just
a second. D kW was UM one of the four
companies that joined together to form Auto Union, which was
UM I think his Audie Horse, DKW and Wanderer. That's
the the interlock four rings on the AUDI symbol today.
And so d k W had a vehicle called the
schnell Laster snil Laster maybe I don't know how to

(31:54):
I guess shnil Laster sure, but that was manufactured from
what nineteen forty nine until nineteen sixty two, and it
was one of the one of the first few vehicles.
I guess it was a production vehicle, uh to feature
the characteristics of modern minivans, because I think the stout
scared they only made like ten of those. So it's
kind of a one off example, I guess, or a
ten off maybe UM example. But you'll see them in

(32:14):
museums and and you know, I guess maybe you know
there's the odd owner that you know might drive it
around too shows, you know, the concourse shows or something.
But yeah, but that that goes into and I don't
want to derail us too far, but that goes into
the the old problem of how to best define what
makes a production threshold for a car. Yeah, I guess

(32:38):
a production run of ten is still a production run. Yeah, handbuilt,
but see I would say that d k W probably
had more of an assembly line production going from sixty two.
That's a long run. That's a long run, more than
you know, just not throwing together but you know, like
putting together ten and ten cars as well. I don't
want to say easier, but it's easier than than than

(32:59):
running you know, a factory. You know, the running a
factory for thirteen years. So I guess you could look
at it that way. And at the same time as
d kW is doing that with the laster. I hope
I'm getting that right. Um. In nineteen fifty, the Volkswagen
Type two was adapted, was like a bust adaptation to
the Volkswagen Beatle. So that's when the microbus really came out.

(33:20):
And a lot of people think of the microbus as
maybe being the first minivan. It's not exactly right. I mean,
sure it has the same features that we're talking about,
you know, it has. Um since this is where we
get into the gray area, I guess with all these
vehicles and there's more than this too, um, but the
gray areas is that this is a we're gonna talk

(33:40):
about this amoment one box design, whereas current modern minivans
have a two box design. And we'll talk about box
design in just a moment, but I need to get
another example out because I promise we'll get to box design.
Wasn't there wasn't there another one? There was a let's see,
there's so we we mentioned d k w ye, we
mentioned that and the one, the one I'm thinking about

(34:00):
is the Fiat six Multiple And if you have never
seen in nineteen fifty six Multiple, uh, check it out.
But I mean, I think you'll find that shaped a
lot like the Scarab and that it has rounded corners
front end back, and that's an interesting looking vehicle. Has
a lot of exam again the same type of thing,
the high you know, passenger capacity, high cargo capacity. It's

(34:21):
a small vehicle because it's a Fiat, but it has
that shape, it has those features. So a lot of
people say that maybe that's the first minivan. So there's
a lot of contenders here. There's another one. There's the
Lloyd LT. Now. Lloyd is a German manufacturer and they
built the LT five between nineteen fifty three and nineteen
fifty seven, and it's a six cater minivan version and
this one. To me, Ben, this this Lloyd lt probably

(34:44):
has the most modern look to it as far as
you know the minivan contenders for the first first ever.
That reminds me, speaking of longer back ends, I can't
believe we've got this far. It's it's way more like
a full size van than a minivan bug Mr. Fuller's
Dymaxie and yeah, well that's big, but I mean that's big.

(35:06):
It's got like well, the shape, the shape of the
scare of the shape of this this Fiat, the Spazzundard Multiple,
it reminds me of the Maxi Dymaxi. And you're right,
and the Dymaxine is apparently a nightmare to drive. I
can imagine. I mean, you know, you know what this
is going. Going back to the Lane Museum, they have
a full size replica of a Dymaxian there. Can you

(35:27):
go inside. I don't think you can go inside, but
you can sure peek inside of it, you know, at
the Lane Museum. I don't think I'm trying to recall,
and it's been a couple of years, but I don't
think they have um the rope stantions around all the vehicles.
You can really get right in and lean you can
lean right up to and write in, but don't touch them,
you know, that's the rule. Yeah, Well, don't try to drive,
even if you have an opportunity. Apparently, Uh, the the

(35:50):
Maxine is a real pill to drive. I like that term. Yeah,
I'm bringing it back. There's a because there's a there's
some serious are owing issues with it, which is fine.
You can be a genius at one thing and still
not be great at designing cars, of course, of course,
and it's it was an intriguing designer. Remember it was different.
It was a lot like a small RV really yeah,

(36:12):
but just fascinating car. If you don't know much about it,
take a look at it. And I think we should
probably at this point. So anyways, we've got several early
minivan contenters, ones that claim to have been the first, right, right,
and if you look at them at the first glance,
they can seem to be pretty varied, and in many

(36:33):
ways they are. However, they are all. This is the
I think the crucial part here. They all come out
in a relatively small span of time compared to each other,
and they're all attempting to address the same concerns, which
is family friendly transport ultimately or like small group transport,

(36:55):
you know, because beforehand would have really we have larger
people movers. I'm just gonna use that phrase because it's
vague enough to encompass everything. And then h we would
have um commercial transit. So this is essentially a way
for a private individual two under their own power transport

(37:21):
you know, many more people than would be typical in
a vehicle at the time, the whole family plus all
of their grandmas and all other stuff I should say,
and their boxes for their hats, hat boxes there there
hunting gear or whatever they're bringing boxes. Yeah, was great,
big wicker pick picnic baskets, right. Uh. And so the

(37:42):
auto manufacturers do not exist in a vacuum. So the
market is teaching these manufacturers, uh what what they want.
And one of the one of the other big things. Oh,
I can't believe, I almost forgot to mention this is
one of the biggest things. That it's the efficient use
of space and how best to organize an allocate space

(38:07):
and so that you can have the smallest possible footprint
with the largest possible amount of room. Well, they had
the right idea. Going all the way back to the
depot hacks. I mean, really they did it. But but
the depot hacks were a what we'll call it, two
box design. Now I hinted earlier that we're gonna talk
about so we'll talk about box design, and I I
hope this doesn't make your eyes glaze over, but we
talked about it with the Many. I think Many was

(38:30):
a two box design as well. But you can kind
of picture this, I think if if you want to like,
think of it this way. There's one box, two box,
and three box designs. And I've got examples of each one,
and just me describing this type of vehicle, you should
understand what I'm talking about. But we'll clarify just a moment.
So the VW Microbus, that's an example of a one
box design that's relatively flat front end, flat back end.

(38:52):
There's just the cabin area and that's about it, right.
It still has all the pillars, but um, it's just
a box design. A lot of people can picture that
in their in their mind's eye. The Lincoln town Car
is a three box design. It has a hood, an
area for the engine, it has a cabin, and then
it also has a trunk area. That's that's a small box,
a big box in the middle and a small box
at the end. Three box design. And then you know

(39:15):
the minivans. The modern minivans have a two box design,
so like the Toyota Siena minivan I guess has a
smaller box in the front where the hood is covered.
But because it's kind of an aerodynamic design, it's not
flat like the microbus. It has more of a um
more of like a small truck for an end, maybe
trying to put it that way, but it does. It
does it as a hood and an engine department, you know.

(39:35):
So that's that's one box, and then the second box
would be the long back end. It's a cabin area
for you know, people in cargo. And then vans I
guess or you know, they fall under one or two
box designs as well, depends on the front end, I suppose,
so you can kind of understand, but modern minivans typically
have a two box design. Again, it's like the hood
area and then the cabin and cargo area. UM. Sedan's

(39:56):
typically fall into three box styling. And you know that
this has to go with pillot and number of pillars
and all that as well. Wagons UM they often are
actually almost always are our two box designs because they
end flat at the back. Um, and then you know
it's like station wagons, I mean, and then hatchbacks are
actually a two box design as well. For the engine compartment,
then the cabin and cargary. The hatch kind of falls

(40:17):
under the same box because it's still it's still the
same open space exactly. Yeah, because you're sitting kind of
under the hatch, I guess if you're in the back
seat or even in the front. Sometimes it just hatchbacks
typically fall under two box design. So you understand what
we're talking about when we when we get to that,
because um, looking back at like the you know, the Lloyd,
that's a two box design. If you look at the
the v W microbus, that's a one box design. A

(40:39):
lot of the early ones were one box designs. And
that's that's not um, that's not countered to it. If
I guess, you know, given the way that the trucks
were designed and then very flat front ends, Um, they
didn't really care about aerodynamics and fuel economy and all
that at the time. They were more concerned with, you know,
being able to carry a lot of people and carry
a lot of stuff. And it didn't matter how much
fuel it costs, you know, to get them to the

(41:00):
depot or back to the hotel or whatever. So just
so we're clear on you know, the box designs and
the and the idea behind the styling of all this,
and you know how it ties into um, you know,
the modern minivan, right, and just to be clear, the
size of the box doesn't matter in this concept. So
that's why, for instance, you see a Bluebird school bus

(41:24):
with a flat face, that's a one box design exactly
just one long, rectangular box. But then they upped it,
and I think and did they make a they made
a two box design. Two boxes eventually. Yeah, well, I
mean everybody kind of went that way. But yeah, they're
they're those old You're exactly right, those old giant busses
had those big flat front ends. Uh, not the most
aerodynamic things in the world. I mean, I guess winnebagoes

(41:45):
fall under one box design as well, if you want
to want to count it that way. It's you know,
it's it's just about it's about getting all the people
there eventually. So okay, so we're we're we're progressing here,
and you know, I think that you would you talked
earlier that we would get into the era of the
nineteen seventies, and I think maybe before we do that,
we should take a work from our sponsor. All right,

(42:16):
and we're back. We took a break, had some snacks,
have sandwich. Yeah, I hope you guys had a good
sponsor break too. That's a fast sandwich. It was fast.
It was a fast sandwich. Fast. We want to keep
it moving. Scott, you had alluded to the nineteen seventies,
and that's because we're entering into um. Oh hey man,

(42:38):
I don't know if we've ever talked about this even
off air. Are you a fan of alternative historical fiction? Yeah?
Like what if different like you know, the whole Cuban
missile crisis thing, like right, I have been cloudy? Or
what if Elvis you know, had a different hit. I
don't know. Yeah, there's all kinds of stuff like that,

(42:58):
but what ifs they're interesting. So we're entering a what
if moment in the development and the rise of would
later be popularly called the minivan. So we know that,
like if we are fictional auto manufacturers right in late sixties,

(43:19):
early seventies, we know that people uh, people like being
able to travel in one vehicle with their whole family.
We know that they don't particularly care um how fast
it is. They're willing to sacrifice some performance high in

(43:40):
performance for family. We realize that previous iterations of vehicles
have proven there are some definite uh rules or like
rules of thumb for good and interior use of space
in the vehicle. We also know, and again when we

(44:03):
spend our all the days doing this as fictional car manufacturers,
we also know that the average American household probably doesn't
want a bus. They probably don't want a van, full
size van. In fact, they might not have a place
to put it. Yeah, most don't have a place to
put a full size van because they don't fit into

(44:24):
a standard garage. They're not garage abal. That's right. So
there's the term, right garadge abal. And well we'll get
to that term in the story, I promise you, because
we haven't yet gotten to the nineteen eighties. Uh, something
very very interesting happened in the early nineteen seventies. In fact,
I will say right around right around nineteen seventy two,

(44:45):
somewhere there. This is something that um, I'll tell you.
I'll be up front with you about this, Ben, I
think this is the most like probably the most important step,
but to me also the most interesting part of the story,
this whole story, this entire episode is is what's happening
right now in nineteen seventy two with with Ford Motor Company.
And the truth is that Chrysler and Ford each had

(45:06):
started working on minivans in the early part of the
nineteen seventies, but neither one of them made any progress
until this. This this just by chance combination came up
of of leaders and technology. So here's where's where we're
going with this in nineteen seventy three, when they've developed

(45:27):
in nineteen seventy two. But in nineteen seventy three, Ford
had a product called there actually a concept vehicle called
the Ford Carousel and spelled just as even think C
A R O U S E L. I think there's
an alternate spelling to that as well. But if you
look up Forward Carousel in nineteen seventy three, you'll find
a photo of this, And I'm gonna show Ben a
photo of this along with a nineteen four Plymouth Voyager,

(45:49):
which was the so called first minivandom, Christis, and I'll
show you them they're there side by side in this photo.
They are so very very similar, very much alike, and
there's a very good reason for that. Now, that's two
separate companies, right, Ford Price, So you would think that
there would be some kind of variation, but they are
really really close in in uh in proximity, you know

(46:09):
the way that they look. Um. Now, the carousel was
of course a Ford code name. Um. You know, they
do that a lot to keep things kind of secret
on the download I guess right, So you know, like, um,
here's an example, like the five leader Mustang g T
engine is called the Coyote engine. That's stuck with it.
A lot of people still call it that in public,
but this sounds cool. Early on in development it was
the Coyote engine. So that's you know, the the internal

(46:31):
stuff and no one really knows what you're talking about
outside of the company. But the Ford carousel carousel, and
we'll just kind of go through this, this history of
this carousel because this does play right into the Chrysler
minivan um It was developed in nineteen seventy two and
I think released I guess, are shown in nineteen seventy three,
but they never produces vehicle outright. This vehicle actually explored

(46:53):
a lot of the different concepts that the first American
market minivans now having production or did having production in
the early nineteen eighties. Now, this was called a garadge
dobal van, as you said earlier, been a garage abal
van because it was the design to fit in a
standard American garage which was just slightly over seven ft tall,
because the standard of the full size vans were a

(47:14):
full seven feet tall, and you know, that just left
you know, inches of space in between you know, the
top of the van and uh, you know, the garage
door itself, and that kind of depended on where that,
you know, if the springs allowed it to come all
the way up or not. You know, so there's some
variation there. They were shooting for something that was a
lot lower but was still the cargo carrying capacity and
that people carrying capacity of a full size van, and

(47:36):
they just didn't have anything like that at the time.
So so ford I was working on something that they
had another code name was called Nantucket, and Nantucket was
supposed to be like a redesign of ford a resign
of the ford E Conno line and the club Wagon,
which were the full size vans, which might like today
you might think of the uh Ford E series, right, yeah,
church fans exactly, Yeah, the church of the the ones

(47:59):
that carry twelve or team people or whatever. They're big,
these big vans. Um But the idea for the Nantucket
or code named Nantucket, was to increase the front seat
in terror room. And a drawback of that design was
that it's increased height for the people. If it's increased
height was for people who wanted one as like a
daily driver. You know, people wanted these, you know to
carry their uh, you know, five or six kids or

(48:19):
whatever they had at the time, or maybe you know,
they had needs to carry a baseball team or a
football team or something like that. So the problem was
it was almost seven feet tall, which means your clearance
is going to be what yeah, yeah, if, if at all,
you're gonna have any clear Yeah, that's right. So there's
a problem there, right. So this the idea was they're
going to create this gradgeable van, which kind of fell

(48:42):
below the size of that. So in nineteen seventy two,
the Ford president at the time, who you got to remember,
was Lea A Coca. That's that's really important. To the story.
Lea I A Coca approved the expansion of the Nantucket
project to include a third vehicle alongside the account of
Line in the club Wagon, which was codenamed Carousel. So
here go with the Carousel um. This new variant was

(49:02):
of course said to be a gradgebal van. That's what
he wanted. That was the whole intent of this thing,
and so that you know that the buyers of full
size station wagons and passenger vans would find interest in
this because it was something in between. It was right
between that full size van and the station wagons that
they were offering at the time. You could almost say
it crossed over. It was. It was like it was
a crossover, but there wasn't a but it was a

(49:24):
small van, so they so and they didn't coin the
term yet. They didn't call it a minivan yet, but
but it was a mini van. It was a mini
version of the count of Line and the club Wagon
that Ford already had. They just didn't know to call
it yet, you know that at the time. So we're
talking about somewhere in between the size of like the
Ford Ltd. Country Choir and of course the club wagon,
and of course had all the cargo carrying capacity. Interesting

(49:47):
bit of trivia if I may. Okay, it was designed
by Dick nesbit right, the same guy who went on
to design the Ford Mustang. To okay, He's got a
lot of variation in his designs, and you know, I
Coco was critical and a lot of this stuff as well.

(50:07):
I mean he um he had I think was he
in like the he was with the Mustang the pinto
uh Ford escort um you for Ford of course, but
then moving on later of course, as you know, well,
you know what we're jumping ahead of ourselves. So going back,
we should say that the carousel actually had a lot
of support uh internally with Ford Company. Yeah. Henry Ford

(50:29):
the second, who is uh see Henry Ford the second
was running the company at the time. Uh. He would
have been the oldest son of Edsel Ford and the
oldest grandson of Henry Ford. That's that's Henry Ford the second.
He liked it as well, So you know, that's that's
the step in the right direction at the top. Yeah,
you would think that that you would think that the
carousel would go on to production, you know, because you

(50:49):
know it's got uh the approval of the topics X right. Yeah,
But then of course we have to remember the time
in which this was developed. So the opposition there was
there was opposition because so some of the other four
executives were I'm sure very diplomatic when they're talking to

(51:09):
the owner of the company, but their fear, which I
think was valid, was that this might threaten to cannibalize
sales of other vehicles of the ones we just talked about.
Of the of the station wagon, yeah, the the LTD
Country Square, and of course there's another one called the
Mercury Colony Park. I think there's another station wagon. Um.
And then of course I don't know about the van.
I don't know if it would cannibalize the van sales

(51:31):
at all or not. But but maybe. But as you said, Ben,
you you had hinted that it was, you know, a
victim of timing as well. This is why I didn't
go into production, right, Uh, the energy crate. This is
why it's it's almost what iferry on our parts, what
if it had gone into production. It got very close,
but the seventy three energy crisis and the subsequent recession

(51:57):
in the mid seventies made the company cut back. Ford
had to cut back on development of new, entirely new vehicles,
and one of their policies at the time to cut
cost was to say, in less a vehicle is replacing
an already successful line, We're not going to try to
go out and make a new market, you know what

(52:19):
I mean. And since the carousel was an all new vehicle,
I got the X right. Yeah, there were a lot
of axes in the seventies, it turns out, yeah, unfortunately right,
So so okay, so in nineteen seventy three comes and
goes and uh and the carousel really goes nowhere. There's
nothing left to it. But again, take a take a
look at a photo of a carousel, and I think

(52:40):
you'll see exactly where I'm going with this. But um
in night. Just five years later, in Lea Coco was
fired from Ford Motor Company, and just months later the
director of product planning. His name was how spurlick Um
he also left the company and so and after that,
both of both of those executives were hired in similar
roles at the Rysler Corporation. So you know, that's the

(53:02):
that's the era when Chrysler was really down in the dumps.
I mean, they were bankrupt, They were gonna go under
the whole company everything, and so I think a lot
of people recalled that. You know, there's a there's some
bold statements made by Lea Coca and they borrowed some
money and they actually paid all that money back on
you know, ahead of time. There's a great story there.
We probably should cover it at some point in the podcast.

(53:24):
That's a good idea. Yeah, I hadn't even thought of that.
But the resurrection of the Chrysler brand, because it did
come back. Um, but the timing is so interesting. So
I Coca and this other guy, Hal Spurlet go over
to Chrysler Corporation. And now this is interesting because, um,

(53:45):
this is right around the time when the K car
came came about, and the K car was said to
have saved Chrysler Corporation. It was the economy car that
was a platform that they could build on. They could
they had the reliant K, they had the Omni, they
had you know, all kinds, they had, um the Labarre
and I think was on that platforms well, there are
a lot of different cars that were on that platform,
and platform engineering became a thing where you know, he

(54:06):
had the same like the basic chassis and engines even
and you just put a different body on it. Yeah,
huge savings. And you know, again there's another possible podcast
right there. So if you go just a few years forward,
I mean we're not we're not really long into the
K car platform vehicles when Plymouth Voyager and Dot Caravan

(54:26):
are revealed to the public, right, yeah, in three I believe, right, yea,
but I believe it was the Plymouth Voyager was the
first one that was revealed, or maybe along with the
Dodge Caravan. But anyways, they were they were um built
on the they were built on the K car chage. Yeah, yeah,
they're built on the K car ches, the Reliant k Car,
but it didn't actually share the platform. That's the tricky

(54:49):
part of this thing. But the minivans weren't the K
car platform, but it was based on the Reliant King
Maybe that's a better the better ways, it's based on
their lank and they were built on the Windsor assembly
line over in you know wins are Ontario, Canada, And um,
this is interesting too. I found this out and I
hadn't thought of this. The Plymouth Voyager in the Dodge
Caravan actually pioneered Chrysler's Cab Forward design ten years before

(55:14):
the l H line of products. Now that's when they
started calling it the cab Forward design. But if you
look at a minivan, the wheels are pushed way after
the corners, and that was the idea behind the cab
Forward design that came about. And what in the nineteen nineties,
maybe early through the early two thousands, I started using
that in like their yeah literature, well like you know,
the Chrysler, the Chrysler Concorde, the Intrepid Um, Eagle Vision

(55:38):
back when Eagle was a brand. UM. So I'm trying
to think of the other ones. I can't right now.
Maybe the three M I think it was another one UM.
But anyways, it was a it was a I guess
a revolutionary step when they actually said here's our here's
our newest minivan, and people loved it right away. People
have gravitated to this. I think in the first year
they sold something like twenty two thousand of these things

(55:59):
going game bus. There's you know, in in many ways
it I think it was the first array of light
for Chrysler. You know, when people when people start buying
these things like hot cakes. But again I'm gonna show
you this photo again. It's very clear. Okay, So imagining
that the guy that was in charge of this program,
you know, the for the carousel is also in charge

(56:23):
of of you know, getting this into production, you know,
Plumouth Voyage or Dodge Caravan, because there's still both two boxes,
you can The largest difference, honestly is um, there's an
extra row of window panes on the carousel. I gotta say,
I kind of like the window design of the carousel better.

(56:43):
It looks almost like a scaled down full size van top,
it does, you know, versus the the caravan and Plymouth
voyger because those are more flat like almost like um
like plate glass pieces that were put in like almost
like from a a house or something. Yeah, that's what
it looks like. But the other one were more styled
like a like an old station wagon maybe you know.
The roofline is a lot more like a station wagon

(57:05):
or full size van than than the caravan. But very
very interesting comparison to draw between the two. And you know,
there's probably a ton of stuff we can say about
these vans, right, yes, I mean a lot of first,
of course, which I'm hesitant to bring up, you know,
the first always, but uh, they're all kinds of stuff.
I know, you've got some some other information to throwing.

(57:28):
Oh yeah yeah. So um. At the same time, this
is I think this is a great case study of how, um,
how these seemingly rival companies can find themselves marching and
locksteps sometimes. And I'd like to hear what you think, folks.
So around the same time Chrysler is going like gangbusters

(57:52):
with the voyage or forward of all people, it's like, oh, yeah,
we were also we have also been doing that, which
must have been hilarious to Lea at Coca. And they
do this all the time. They revamp an old idea, right,
So in eight four they revealed the Ford Aerostar and

(58:12):
it was a prototype of an intended vehicle. In eighty
five it actually comes out and then he starts selling it.
So it's just that Chrysler beat them by year. Really,
I mean it's kind of like a me too thing,
you know, like, but that's an important year. And that's
the other question, you know, you have to ask yourself
is it better to be first or is it better

(58:34):
to be second? You know what I mean? Like if
you I was going to say, is it better to
be first or is it better to be best? Um?
The truth is these early products they were I wouldn't
call either one of them best. I don't think you can.
I mean, well maybe, but that's looking through a filter
of you know, um, thirty years, thirty four years now, right,

(58:56):
that benefit of hindsight, Yeah, I mean we do. And
by the time, you know, it was, it was very functional,
very uh desired. It was a desired product in the marketplace.
People wanted exactly what they were giving them because again,
sales numbers were huge and and it doesn't you know,
take a genius to figure out that, you know, with
all these first these industry first um uh, you know

(59:19):
caravan and voyager in town and Country and all those,
you know, the minivans from Chrysler and and Plymouth, they
just seemed to kind of lead the market in a
lot of ways for a lot of years, I mean
going right up through um right through present day. Really
they still do and not saying that they there first
in everything, but I'm looking at a list of first
minivan first, what do you got particular in that group?

(59:40):
But I mean I can't read them all, there's no way.
So I hit a couple here and the year that
had happened. But back they pioneered the way with turbocharge
gas engines. There was also this is another car that
we haven't talked about, UM one that UM UM maybe
a lot of people haven't heard about this vehicle, but
it's a Renault E space and open up and that incorrectly,

(01:00:00):
I hope it's not a space but I think it's
the space UM In they also released a vehicle you know,
badged Renault UM. The thing is that came along with
UM the Chrysler UK. Chrysler UK company working with another
manufacturer called Matra m A t R A and Matro,

(01:00:21):
which went to funct in about two thousand three, played
a key role in this whole development as well. But
they kind of they shared designs, so there's no no
surprise that you know, this Renault came out right around
the same time when the Chrysler came out here in
the United States. UM. But Matro was a maker of automobiles, bicycles, aeronautics, weaponry,
that kind of thing. They did a lot of different things. UM.

(01:00:42):
But but again Matro was was critical in or played
a key role in the Renault E space development. UM
and I think that the turbo diesel was also used
to the end of nineteen eighty four and that Renault
E space anyways. UM, but again early on, so the
turbocharge gas engines in UH. There was an electric minivan option,

(01:01:03):
UH called the Epic in nineteen all the way back
in n an electric minivan. Um all whe'll drive in
nineteen ninety one. I'm skipping around here a little bit.
But bucket seats in both the front both in the
first two rows. Uh in nineteen that was something new.
Um Man, they had all kinds of California Ultra Low
Emission Vehicle certification back in nineteen ninety seven or four

(01:01:25):
nineteen ninety seven. Back in nineteen ninety four, so three
years ahead of time that had passenger side airbags. I
guess they were seamless and that was the big thing.
And then it's in nineteen six, um, just all kinds.
Here's one adjustable cup holders. That's a big yeah. Well,
isn't this one of the vans. I gotta say that
the Chrysler vans, the minivans, I think these were one

(01:01:48):
of the ones that would just it seems like every
year they were saying they're up in the number. Yeah.
So you remember, there's like almost like a battle going
on for a while, a cup holder battle where they'd say,
we have sixteen cup holders in their town in country.
It got bananas because there were more cup holders than
there were available seats. Yeah, and I mean we're talking
like two cup holders per seat. You know. At some

(01:02:08):
point in a lot of these minivans, so like how
how how what are your kids drinking? It got a
little bit out of control. I mean they had you know,
mid cabin, upper level comfort controls in there's a list
of probably forty five different things here. I mean, all
will drive, you know, that kind of stuff. Interesting A
lot of people might not expect. Yeah, interesting, all will
drive in ninety one. I think I mentioned that when

(01:02:29):
are ready, but lots of different things and passenger side
airbags that were standard. I don't think that happened until,
believe it or not, so ten years after it was developed.
It's along the way. Chrysler has played a huge role
in manivan history, That's all I'm saying. But you know,
a lot of other manufacturers, Toyota, Honda, Um of course,

(01:02:50):
other makers across the pond come across with you know,
lots of minivan designs and ideas, and there have been
variations of these and crossovers. And you said you've got
more information on the four. Is that right? Well, I
I one thing that I think is really important here
is with the With just the highlights of the first
that you pulled here, you can see how these are

(01:03:12):
also already moving towards the idea of comfort over performance,
which inevitably leads to a low, jurious ride. Like look, man,
I'm the first to say it. A lot of those
like two thousand seventeen, two thousand eighteen minivans. Have you
been in one? Yeah? They're nice. They're really nice. It's
like your your rich friend's house. Yeah, yeah, they actually

(01:03:36):
they are. I actually got a lot to say about
the modern minivans. I mean, yeah, we should talk about
Well how about how about we pushed that a couple
of minutes at the end of this episode, because I mean,
I want your opinion on on someone. When's the most
recent time you've been out? But but can I can
I mention one more thing about the unless you had
other things? One more thing that I found really interesting

(01:03:57):
about Chrysler minivans. So you gotta imagine that there was
a first, a first car that came off the Sumbly
line right there. Had there had to have been a
very first minivan. And it turns out that that very
first minivan was one that they used in the Windsor
assembly plant. Is kind of a vehicle in the shop.
They used it to, um, you know, drag parts around
people and you're just a transport vehicle. So it got

(01:04:18):
pretty abused, pretty beat up, you know along the way,
and um, someone someone there at the at the factory
coerce somebody or you know, talk somebody into the idea
that this is historically important. It's a minivan. I know,
it's a minivan, but it's the first. We need to
do something with it. And they decided that they were
going to restore it. They were they restored the first minia.
I think that's really cold too. So they restored the

(01:04:39):
very first minivan and it was put on display at
the Walter P. Chrysler Museum, which no longer exists. I mean,
I think it's out of the building still there. It's
something different now m in Auburn Hills. But it was
a tan Plumouth Voyager with I think it they even
had wood grade on the side, so just exactly as
you would imagine, but they fully restored it. Now this
is the interesting part. Then, Yeah, I said it was

(01:05:01):
a Plymouth Voyager. Right somewhere along the way during restoration,
that Plymouth Voyager turned into a Dodge caravan. Whoever restored
it rebadged it, so you gotta you gotta remember now,
Plymouth went defunct in the year of two thousand one,
I believe mid mid June, our midyear two thousand one.

(01:05:21):
So somebody made the decision when they were restoring this.
And I don't know if this is to avoid some uncomfortable,
you know, conversations at the at the at the museum,
you know, as to why, you know, you don't make
the Plymouth brand anymore. I'm guessing that's it. But they
changed it over by, you know, just making simple changes
like badges and the grill and the wheel covers and
you know, Dodge trim is what they added really to

(01:05:42):
this Plymouth Voyager. So how interesting is that it like
it has like rewriting history, I guess. So when you
see that first minivan wherever it is now, I don't
know who owns it or you know where it's where
it's being held, but UM know that that was originally
a Plymouth Voyager and not a Dodge caravan. It's so weird. Yeah,
And I think there's one at the Smithsonian. I don't

(01:06:02):
know if that's the That may be the first one.
Maybe they donated it to the Smiths mistaken identity. But
there is an early minivan, Chrysler minivan is some sort.
I don't know if that's the one, but it's in
the Smithsonian, you know, the automation or the Transportation Museum.
Somebody should write them a letter. They don't know. I
don't somebody knows. I mean I found the story somewhere

(01:06:25):
on the all par site if you want to look
it up. The curators of the Smithsonian know what's in
their exhibit. I think they have. They have a pretty
good idea. I would think so, Ben. Okay, So, unless
you have other material on the Chrysler minivans are particularly
that era of minivan, I'd like to kind of move
on to the modern era, and just in brief, really

(01:06:46):
like what what was the late the last time you
were in a minivan? And how recent do you think?
I mean just ballpark? How like what male year was ballpark?
Last time I was in a mini van. Uh, last
time I was in a last time I was in

(01:07:06):
a minivan. I was actually taking a lift, which is,
you know, the competitor to uber L y F t uh.
And it was really weird because the guy who was
driving and the guy who owned the vehicle, uh, this
was nineties. It was an older it was an older model.

(01:07:31):
This was this was late last year, I want to say,
but an older vehicle. Yeah, recent, but an older vehicle. Uh.
And this joker had taken out, uh, had taken out
some like the seating. So there was just that if
everyone can imagine this with me, there was the driver's seat,

(01:07:51):
the shotgun seat, and then the back row in the
back by the window. Yeah, and then it was just
empty space and it smelled like incense in there, and
I had like hopped in. But my car, of course
was in the shop. And uh. Usually usually I try
to be very complimentary, you know, if I'm if I'm

(01:08:12):
hitch and ride with somebody, unless their car is a
real pos then I'm gonna I'm gonna say like, oh,
this is a cool car. And you know, if they're
into cars, we can talk about something right like oh,
what's uh you know, Um, I met some I was
driving a Honda Pilot. I had never been in one,
and you know, honestly, I the Honda Odyssey I think

(01:08:35):
has outsold the Honda Pilot by pretty significant margins several times.
So I was interested to see why that guy. But
this dude in this UM, I want to say, maybe
it was a town and country. This thing was so
weird that I was I didn't know what to say,

(01:08:57):
and so instead of a question, I sort of ended
up saying something lame, like you, uh, you had a
lot of room back here, a lot of like room,
and I don't know what it was for. Yeah, like
the old checker cabs and carpet down on it too,
really not like you know, not like fuzzy house carpet,
but like the kind of uh ultry stuff you have

(01:09:18):
on a car like Matt, like Matt, like a big
Matt got it. And I totally didn't understand that. But um,
the most well, it sounds like kind of a bad experience. Really, Yeah,
it's not a fair evaluation of it, because that's that's
an unusual situation, right, And he was a nice guy,
by the UM just had some very interesting choices in

(01:09:39):
his van life. Uh but um, but yeah, the more
I think one of the more interesting experiences I had,
at least for a long time listeners, was several years
before that. How long we've been at this current office
for about what to two and a half years? Yeah,

(01:10:00):
so we used to You've probably heard it, folks on
one of our earlier shows. Um, Scott and I used
to work in an office that was located in the
downtown area of Atlanta called Buckhead, and there was an
underground parking deck where everybody have to park. Scott, you
and I typically parked on the bottom so that nobody
would mess up our cars, the cars, ding the cars.

(01:10:21):
And one day it was later and I was I
was walking through the parking deck and I see Um,
and all right, I'll just let the bad rout of
the bag. See this gold Honda Odyssey rolling up and
I'm on foot, So I don't really have any beef

(01:10:43):
with it at this point. I'm just gonna keep walking,
play it cool, try to be anonymous, avoid eye contact. Yes, sir,
Actually I was doing that like a Wayne's World where
they see the extra girlfriend. But but I hear the
tell tale of a flat tire and I look and
there it's like this, um, elderly I'm just gonna say,

(01:11:06):
elderly lady driving this vehicle and she's about to head
out to some of the worst traffic in the city.
It's like a runover. And I stopped and I haven't.
I think you have heard the story, but how many
people have? And I stopped and I'm like waving her down.
And at first I think she's not gonna stop, and
then I think, oh my god, it's true. I'm gonna
die at the hands of a Honda Odyssey driver. But

(01:11:28):
but she does stop, obviously irritates try and get home
and see your tire is flat, and she's like, do
you think I can make it home? It's no, it
is not soft. It is it is flat. And do
you have a spare tire? And she ah, she says
it's somewhere, And so I say, okay, is it somewhere

(01:11:50):
in the back, Like I've resigned the fact that I'm
gonna have to help this like underneath it is? It
is underneath this compartment. I find it, um. And it
was my first time in a hut, honestly, and I
was thinking, you know what, on the inside. It's it's
not that bad. However, she did get on my bad

(01:12:13):
side when I was looking for it and she didn't
have them, Like, she didn't have the jack and the
uh the jack and stuff where was supposed to be
all the tools weren't there? Right, Well, there were somewhere else.
I found them. There were in a plastic bag in
the back. Um. But uh, she asked me, Scott, I

(01:12:34):
know I'm rambling here, but this is very this was
a turning point, like therapy for you kind of, because
she said, how long do you think this is gonna take?
As I was eight minutes in to finding attire that
she had no idea existed in here. You are doing
a good deed, and I stopped, like stopped talking to

(01:12:56):
her at that point other than procedural questions, where's your jack? What?
There is a set of there there are things that
come with your tire that I need to lift up
your van and change the tire for you, just like
I don't know where the car stuff is and uh, yeah,
so I found it. Any way, it changed the tire.

(01:13:17):
I understand nobody's expecting a flat tire. It's never a
great time. But you did get a glimpse inside of
a new minivan, and it was nice. It was really nice.
It was really nice. And the truth is you probably
didn't get to really see all the features. You didn't
get to see that, you know, Honda Odyssey's haven't built
in vacuum, which is actually a really nice feature. No,
I no, I think it was being harassed and harangue.

(01:13:38):
You know, they've got navigation system, they've got you know,
all the modern features. It's they're quite luxurious inside, not
just not just the Odyssey, but all minivans now. They
they've they've kind of they've they've blurred the lines between
luxury and um um, I guess utility and what what
pardon my rant? You're right, got it to turn into

(01:13:59):
a rant? Um? That's all right? What what's the last
time you were in a minute. I rented one recently,
like when we went to Detroit a couple of I
guess would be several months ago, now almost a year. Really,
what you get? We got a it was a Chryst
It was a Chrysler Town of Country or a Dodge Caravan.
I can't remember which one it was, but it was
a Chrysler product um just loaded with really nice stuff.

(01:14:20):
I mean, had you know all the modern bells and
whistles that you would expect. Yeah, more technology than you
could ever use. Really in you know, a rental car
that you know you're just borrowing for a weekend or
whatever it was, or three or four days. Um, so
nice in fact, and this is funny, my kid. You
know what kind of car is my wife and I drive? Right?
I have a I have a two thousand and twelve

(01:14:42):
Volkswagen c C. It's not bad. It's not brand new
or anything. My wife has Jeep Renegade, not bad, it's
all right. I have I would say that CC is
a really good car. I like it right, it's a
it's a decent looking ride. It's it has a decent
ride to it. It's it's an eat car. Mike kid
gets in this minivan. She's fifteen now, so you maybe

(01:15:03):
this explain some of it, the attitude, but she says,
she says, wow, this is really nice. And she's in
the back seat and she says, compared to this, it's
like you and mom drive hobo cars. Now, have you
ever heard anybody say the term hobo cars? Can you
believe that that's her opinion of our cars, or that
their hobo cars. Hobo car. I thought that was so

(01:15:24):
funny that I here's what I did. I texted myself
just these two words hobo cars at the time, because
I knew I would never remember the term or the
phrase that she used. It's such an unusual term anyway,
so quite a slam on our on our vehicles. But
she was really impressed with the minivan, which I didn't
expect that of a fifteen year old. You think that
would be an uncooled car. However, it's just again loaded

(01:15:46):
with luxury at entertainment, and I'll tell you like driving
it around town, it's nice. I wouldn't want to own
one personally, just because of the size and the type
of vehicle it is. I just I'm not a fan
of that. But um, it really has all the jeers
that you would want in anything that size, and it's comfortable.
To take a long road trip in that thing. I
bet it would be very comfortable. I mean I remember

(01:16:08):
even back in the mid nineteen nineties renting those in Florida,
you know, like in the Orlando area for video production
or something. You have a lot of gear to carry. Uh,
it was the best option because you could carry people
and gear. And of course it smelled moldy and mildewy,
like every rental car in Orlando, Florida does because of
the humidity there. But um, it was really nice. They

(01:16:29):
were there were solid vehicles even back then, and you know,
just they had everything you neither comfortable and even though
you hated to admit it, you know, when I was
I was a twenty four year old at the time,
you know, when I was renting these, um, it was
a nice vehicle. I mean I wouldn't again, wouldn't want
to buy one, but to rent one and just to
drive it around it and it was very comfortable. It
had everything you'd want. It was just it was it

(01:16:50):
was actually a decent car, a decent vehicle. So we
have our anecdotal experience. Yeah, we may have to go
back and edit some of them, but we do have to.
We do have to ask about the future. You know,
is the rise of many vans, which began in the eighties,
is going to continue well. It seems that sales have

(01:17:11):
sharply declined as of April of this year, and some
of the questions that we hear about, you know here
regarding this situation. They all kind of orbit some of
the age old questions you hear about automotive products, you know,
the New York Times. It's really interesting in the eighties

(01:17:32):
when in the eighties when many vans first came out
the New York Times supposedly, supposedly when they were called
many vans first modern many days. Take all the caveats
from this whole episode, just pretend I said them all again. No, No,
it's a great point. I'm glad you made it, Um.
The but the New York Times was ranting and raving

(01:17:53):
and they were all twitter painted about it, and they
they were saying Christ was invented this entirely new market
for vehicles, where of course other people would say, oh,
the days of the station wagon are numbered. And now
we have to ask ourselves are minivans transforming? Is it

(01:18:13):
that the people who would have normally purchased a minivan
ten fifteen years ago, are they gonna be buying crossovers?
Are they going to be buying SUVs compact SUVs, for instance. Um,
And I think that's true. I think that's the direction
that things are headed in. But also it's not a

(01:18:36):
thing on the minivans. I mean, they're there. If they're
meant to be family cars, right then it seems like
their emphasis on luxury and comfort is paying off. Look, man,
I'm not you know, do you feel like a sucker
holding the cup in your lap? Now that you know?
Here's the thing with minivans, and we didn't really state this,

(01:18:57):
I guess, but they have plenty of room to include
just about every luxury feature you want us. Well, that's
really good. They're big, so like there's not a lot
of the space concerns that you would find in a
smaller sedan or in a sports car or even well,
I guess luxury cars have space for stuff like this too,
but many vans have. I wouldn't say a limited space,
but they've got a lot more space for engineers to

(01:19:20):
kind of play with and toy with and add the
latest technology, the latest teachers, the latest but you know,
bells and whistles, um. And I think that they're taking
advantage of that, and they're just loading them up with stuff.
And I'm sure they're they're expensive. I don't know what
the average minivan cost now, but I bet it's up there.
I bet it's expensive, um, and probably with good reason.
With all the stuff that they that they fill them
up with. And I and you know, mini vans are

(01:19:41):
probably very great, uh probably fantastic customizable vehicles if you
are a business owner needs to be mobile, right, you
see a lot of mini vans being uh converted into
work vans for you know, like electricians for instance, plumbers

(01:20:01):
even But if they can't get away with a full
size like a sprinter van or something like that. Here's
another thing that gets me. These then would in theory
be ideal vehicles, uh for like secret agents like James Bond.
It's showing off, he asked in Martin's Yeah, yeah, you
don't need that sports car. Also he would never drive

(01:20:21):
at Chrysler. No, probably like Queen would put a hit
on him or something. But the um, but I guess
we are. We are kind of drawing to a close here,
unless you have some more Well, I have a question,
I guess okay. I wonder if many vans have seen
kind of the their better days, you know, if they're
if they're like if they're a thing of the past

(01:20:41):
now and not that station wagons ever went away. But
I wonder if it's a similar thing that they're gonna
start to Wayne, and they have already started to Wayne
in popularity. Is it going to be more of just
like the kind of the odd ball production vehicle that
they still make, you know, at Honda or Toyota, Chrysler
wherever um or are they going to remain, you know,
in the marketplace, still fairly prominent on the dealer lots.

(01:21:03):
Are they gonna Are they gonna just go away as
a station wagons? Are station wagons coming back? Are crossover
is gonna take over? And if so, how long will
crossovers have before something new comes about? And will we
see a divergence in buying trends across the world. But
I think a lot of mini vanners will say that
you're not going to pry that mini van out of
my cold dead hands. Have to pry it out of

(01:21:25):
my cold dead hands, because uh, they love them. Once
they're in them, I think you find that you really
like them, You really appreciate everything that they offer. A
lot like you know, the Pontiac Aztec or something like that.
A lot of people make fun of it or laugh
at it. But but when you know inside one, if
you can, if you drive one, they claim they sell themselves.
I mean at the time they did that, people love

(01:21:47):
them once they were inside them and drove them, you know,
under realized or realized the possibility of that vehicle. But
they were so ugly on the outside according to most people.
For everyone. Yeah, and I guess that's the same thing
with many van It has a stick my attached to it.
And the stigma is that, you know, you're a middle
aged family man or a family woman, I guess, and
you are kind of saddled with lots of responsibilities and

(01:22:10):
tasks and things that you have to do, you know,
all the kids to uh, soccer games or hockey games
or whatever. And it's not really the car that you
want to drive as a car you have to drive.
I don't know, man, when I was name, I'm sure
my age now, but when I was in high school,
we else started driving a kidded out seventies looking like

(01:22:30):
a minivan that looked like a seventies customized full size van,
you know, I mean, and shaq carpet got some art
on the back window. Get like like an old Chevy
astro van or something. You would be like the dream
but um, but it is. It is a great question,
and stigma does have a profound and significant effect on

(01:22:53):
buying trends. I I would like to add just one
more question, completely unrelated to our show. Are completely unrelated
to this episode, and this is for all you out
there ladies and gentlemen. Please, uh please, let us know
what you think of mini vans, if your experience is
driving one, or your experience being on the road with
mini van drivers right, positive, negative, let us know. Let

(01:23:17):
us know if you think the minivan is as Scott asked,
is it a tipporary dip? Is it gonna on its
way out? Is it on its way out? And then
also answer this question for me. I was thinking about
this earlier this week, so I drove in the work

(01:23:37):
this um a few days ago. No parking spaces in
the usual place where we park. The reason there are
no parking spaces. Another reason there's not a parking space
for me or anybody else who comes is because there
is a ferrari that is double parts. And I think
you may have seen this ferrari before. Yeah, So here's

(01:24:00):
the question. Are there ever circumstances where it is right
to double park your car? Okay, we've talked about our
parking structure many times that the pillar situation. There's pillars,
what's it seems like every ten feet construction, so I had,
I mean, you know what I normally wouldn't, but man,
it's also a ferrari. It's a ferrari. It's and very nice.

(01:24:24):
Um and you know how tight our parking areas and
it's extremely tight, And we've griped about it enough times
that people already know this. But in this one particular case,
I would say, I kind of I can understand this,
and and really occupying two spaces in this building is
like occupying one space in a in a reasonable parking lot,

(01:24:45):
a reasonable one. I am surprised. You're usually well, usually
like a lawful, good type, you know, honestly. I mean
they park on the you know, the the extreme highest floor,
and there's there's less congestion up there, so oftentimes they're
open spots, wherein other floors they're not open spots at all.
And I guess on this day, the particular day that

(01:25:05):
you came, there were no open parking spots. But um,
I I do have to defend this this one instance.
I'm still an offense about it because the thing is
I was p o when I was walking into the
office and I thought, you know, why don't you just
put your cars somewhere else. It's already bad decision to

(01:25:27):
take this work of art here. It's covered, and it's
it's covered. It's a badge grudge and it's only employees.
It's something in's someplace you can employees and residents sometimes
you can trust, right right, It's not like in a
public parking lot. My opinion on this would be, you know,
as somebody in an exotic that parks in either a
handicapped spot or takes a spot of clothes and takes

(01:25:49):
two spots. I don't think I would say never if
you don't have the the appropriate credentials in the need.
But to take up two spots close up in a
in a public parking area, that's one that's uncalled for.
You just go to the back of the lot and
take up two spots if you want to. That should
be fine. I mean, no one's been hurt in that situation. Well,
as my day was going and I was thinking, you

(01:26:11):
know the sentence, they kept surfacing in my head. It
was but it's a Ferrari, So I'm on defense. Scott
is defending him. We want to hear from you Uh,
under what circumstances is it okay to double park your car? Right?
I think that's a good way to phrase it. And
I bet a lot of people who have a one
word response never. Well, I I've bet a lot of

(01:26:34):
people will have never dot dot dot except with you.
And I feel right like, if you have a Bugatti
and you're and you're in a really tight parking situation,
I guess are you playing your day so you never
have to park it? Like you know, you just take
it home, right, and you drive it around and you
bring it back home again. You never park it anywhere?
Or if you are in a pay parking lot and

(01:26:56):
you just buy two spots, see, I think that's like
airplane rules. Then you buy two spots. If you buy
two spots well paid parking, that's a that's a different
ball game. See, there are there are cases there. Okay,
this is quickly turning into a different episode, but we
do hope you enjoyed the minivan episode. So thank you
to Weston, B. S Wortz, and Dano for writing in.

(01:27:20):
Thanks to everybody else who wrote in and suggested this
on Facebook or Twitter or emailed us. You can find
us on Facebook and Twitter, we are car Stuff eachs
w you can find our Woody episode, which still holds up.
I checked, I checked back in on it, along with
every other episode we've ever done at our website car
Stuff show dot com. Uh, it's it's free. Yeah. Oh

(01:27:45):
and thanks for hanging in there for this three hour episode. Yeah,
isn't it about three hours? I guess we did go
a little bit long on minivans. It's good though, right,
I mean, I think we've we've had some fun. Well,
maybe we'll this will be the director's cut and then
we'll go. I would bet that this was not the
minivan episode a lot of people anticipated when they first
clicked on that on that link. I hope it wasn't.
I feel the same way, and uh, let us know

(01:28:07):
about that too. You can write to us with any
feedback about your personal experience with many bands, whether you
are a critic or a supporter for it or again it,
for it or again it, as we like to say,
And if you have suggestions for a topic you think
we should cover in the future, we'd love to hear
from you. We are car Stuff at how stuff works

(01:28:28):
dot com. For more on this and thousands of other topics.
Is that How Stuff Works dot com. Let us know
what you think. Send an email to podcast that How
Stuff Works dot com. M

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