June 11, 2013 • 42 mins
It's a story that, for many, is only a footnote in history. But the story of these unique vehicles may surprise you. Join Ben and Scott as they delve into the tale of Henry Ford, Allegheny Ludlum and their iconic, stainless steel cars.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Let's go behind the wheel, under the hood and beyond
with car stuff from how stuff works dot com. Everyone,
welcome to car Stuff. I'm Scott Benjamin and Ben Bullan Ben. Today,
we've got a topic that comes from a listener and um,
he wanted to Well, let's just read the email and
(00:22):
maybe that'll be the best way to lead into this. Yeah,
how about his words? Even his words? And this comes
from Curtis, And Curtis says, Uh, first, let me say
I'm a big fan of your podcast. I'm a sales
rep in Texas and drive about four thousand miles per month,
so podcast had become a great way of passing the miles.
I have a couple of stories I thought you might enjoy.
I'm wondering if you've ever seen this Allegheny steel car
(00:44):
and the story behind it. And he sent along a
couple of photos. Um, Curtis said, Uh, several years ago,
I received an email with pictures that are attached that
I attached to this email. Um a copy of the
email into word documents that said I'd remember the story
and the story is that, Um, Well, it's a picture
of a ninety six Ford coupe that was built and
(01:04):
owned and built four and owned by the Alleghany Ludlum
Steel Company UM. This note says that this is one
of only foreign existence and is the only one currently
in running and roadworthy condition. The car is an exceptional condition,
with the interior and even the frame looking great. All
four cars had over two hundred thousand miles on them
before they were removed from service. Uh. They were built
(01:25):
for Alleghany as promotional marketing projects. The top salesman each
year were given the honor of being able to drive
them for one year. UM svit engine brands really runs
really smooth, really quiet, etcetera. So so Curtis says, I
just wonder if you had seen anything about these only
stainless steel cars and uh, and you know, kind of
maybe what's a little bit more of a backstory on
(01:46):
these things? Right? Oh, buddy, Curtis, thank you for writing.
We were excited to receive this email and it got
us thinking about stainless steel cars in general, especially Allegheny
oft stainless steel cars, because there's a story there, right, Scott, Yeah,
that's right. There's this whole chronology of vehicles that that
(02:07):
UM arises from. I don't know if that's the best
way to say it or not. But from um Allegheny
and from the steel company brother and UH and Ford
Motor Company, UM and and it goes way way back,
farther than you might think, because a lot of a
lot of people maybe the first time they've ever heard
of a stainless steel car was the Deloreans, right, and
the Deloreans still to this day remains the only mass
(02:31):
produced stainless steel car. UH. There were a total of
over nine thousand. I just want to say that it's over.
That's an internet joke. Somebody is gonna get that. Somebody's laughing.
They might be groaning, Scott, but they get what I'm
putting down there. Um. But the number is closer to
nine thousand, two hundred Deloreans over three model years, two
(02:54):
calendar years. And you can you can look into our
past catalog to learn everything about the DeLorean company and
John Delorian himself, because we cover it in not one
but two podcasts that I think so, and we've mentioned
it many many times. Um. You know, the whole thing
about the dies being sunk off the coast of Ireland
(03:16):
and or wherever they were, yea somewhere to the that's
the rumor that they were used as anchors. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And uh, you know, just the unusual fact that it's
a it's an Irish sports car, right, which it's kind
of strange, and and of course you know that the
unusual characteristics of it, and and the and the unusual
founder of the company, John DeLorean, and all of his eccentricities,
(03:40):
and um, I don't know, it's just an interesting car.
I mean, of course it has that brush stainless steel
body that everybody loves to, you know, point out that.
You know, that's so unique, that's so different. But if
you go way way back, I mean, there's a car
that that goes back exactly fifty years prior to the
Dolorean that begins all this. Yes, Now, someone who is
(04:00):
a stute, if you've just done the math and you
already know a little bit about these steel cars, then
you might be saying, wait, Scott got the numbers wrong.
But he didn't. I mean, I'm sorry you didn't. No, no, no,
I didn't. It It goes back truly fifty years because
the Dorian d M C twelve was produced from eight
to eighty two. Two. Um, we're gonna find out that
(04:22):
the first Ford stainless steel car that was delivered to
these steel companies was delivered in nineteen thirty one. So, Curtis,
usually when you're hearing the story of the stainless steel
cars by Allegheny Ludlam, what you'll hear is that they
started in nineteen thirty six. However, that's not entirely true.
That is the first year the Allegheny, Ludlam and Ford
(04:44):
worked together to make some stainless steel cars. But we
need to start the story a little bit earlier, like
you said, Scott nine one ninety one, but then it
goes back a lot farther than that because this company,
I think we got to mention this at this point
that you know, we don't want to confuse anybody with
the way we we we're using names here because, um,
(05:04):
this Allegheny Steel Company went through a lot of different
name changes throughout the years. Now I've got about a
hundred and twelve years of changes here. It's only five
name changes, and I'll quickly go through them. But this
will give an idea of of who this company is,
who they were, who they are now, and who they've
been throughout the time. Throughout time so let's go back
to nineteen o one. Uh, they were the Alleghany Steel
(05:25):
and Iron Company. They were headquartered in western Pennsylvania. That's
where this whole thing was incorporated and began. It's the
nineteen o one. By the nineteen twenties they were known
as the Allegheny Steel Company. So just you know, small
changes here and there, right, Um, Now, this is kind
of where their work with stainless steel began. Even though
stainless steel was kind of discovered I guess in the
(05:46):
early nineteen hundreds, like maybe right around in the turn
of the century. I've got a little bit of that.
Oh sure, yeah, you're right. Right around the turn of
the century, Elwood Haynes developed and patented the crusion resistant
stainless steel. Uh so that's around Um, you're gonna get
different reports there, but it is turning the century nineteen fifteen,
(06:07):
all right, fair enough to alright, So by the nineteen twenties,
that's when they're starting to really start to work with
this kind of new material, I guess. And you'll find
that if you read the history of the company, if
you go on their site, um, all through you know,
throughout their history they've been developing different formulas for this,
so you know, they have different numbers, different codes for
the different uh strengths, and different uses for the steel. UM.
(06:29):
We're not gonna get too wrapped up in that, I
promise in this podcast. But UM, you know they started
getting patent awards and things like that around the nineteen twenties.
By nine seven, Ben, this is the same company that
was using their steel. Their stainless steel was used to
to build the Chrysler building in in downtown New York. Yes,
and they also, uh, they also were instrumental in some
(06:53):
rail interests, in other architectural marvels of the time. I mean,
these guys are big time. Yeah. The trim for Ford
Model A cars at the time, in which is important,
very important. So they're supplying stainless steel trim for the
Ford Model A cars. In UM that becomes really important
because this this partnership with Ford is something that UM
(07:15):
in the nineteen thirties when they finally became action finally,
but when they became known Allegheny Ludlam Steel Corporation by
combining with the yeah, the Ludlum Steel Company, the Alleghany
Steel Company, in the Ludlum Steel company. Um, you find
that you know that that partnership worked out for them. UM.
Just as a side note, as we go through time here,
(07:36):
and we're gonna go back to the nineteen thirties in
just a minute. UM, in the nineteen sixties, there was
a company called tele Dine Incorporated was just founded. Um,
it was a fourty UM. That's important because in in
the nineteen nineties, that's when they kind of link up. UM.
But I want to actually mention this. In nineteen seventies, Uh,
this Allegheny Ludlum Steel Corporation, they built parts for the
(07:58):
for the Concorde ben. Uh. Yeah, the titanium titanium hydraulic
systems in the Concorde were built by Allegheny Ludland Steel Corporation. UM.
And then again I mentioned Teldine. Allegheny Teldine Incorporated was
formed of course when the two of them merged. And
now since they're called Allegheny Technologies Incorporated. And this is
(08:22):
all important because I'm just gonna call them a T
I and that's what they go by. Yet they go
by a T I. And today they are still one
of the They've grown actually to become one of the
largest companies in their industry in the world. They manufacture
not just stainless steel, not just different types of stainless steel,
but a wide range of various products for I think
(08:46):
I think it says both consumer and capitalist markets. So
this means that they just don't they don't just produce
steel for cars right now, or for just buildings, but
they would also douce the tool steel needed to make
uh parts for factories exactly. Okay, So they've they've got
(09:06):
this long, long history of just lots of innovations and
patents and and it's really surprising things. I mean, we're
we're saying this because we wanted to get you guys
to get an idea that this company is really a
standout company in the steel industry and that you know,
going way back, they've had a lot of um, a
lot of I guess points in their history where where
you know, they've been developed. Uh, they've worked on iconic buildings, UM,
(09:29):
iconic vehicles, UM, iconic systems for things like the Concorde,
and I mean even today there's still there's a growing
list of things like this. Okay, So it's kind of
a big deal. Yeah, it's kind of a huge deal.
I think let's go back to the thirties, right, Yeah,
let's get let's get on the steel car. We just
wanted you to know what a big company a t
(09:51):
I is and uh, how it's evolved over time. So
Henry Ford is what's the most diplomatic way to say this,
Scott Henry Fors a whack of American all right. Uh
he he is, at the very least a gentleman with
very definite opinions about what he does and does not like,
(10:12):
hard to please, shut notoriously. So however, he loves this
stainless steel, doesn't. Yeah, the guy, you know, I tell you,
the guy was a genius. I mean he really was.
I mean all the ribbing and stuff that we do
about him here, and we've talked about him extensively, um
on this show and other shows. Um, I mean it
really he he had, he was on the ball with
(10:32):
a lot of this stuff, and to use stainless steel
in his vehicles early on like this now, I mean
even today, you know, it's a it's a big deal.
If you get a stainless steel exhaust on a car,
you get a stainles, you get stainless steel wheels or whatever.
It's still that's still a great product to use. I mean,
and even back then in the early days of stainless steel,
Henry recognized that, you know, this is something that uh,
(10:53):
you know, could give his vehicles a little more longevity
than than some of his competitors. And for just a
few dollars more in some aces for trim and pieces
like radiator cowlings and things like that, it's totally worth
it for him to have those things not be rusted out.
And that's uh that that even, I mean, that's a
few extra dollars here and there gives his company even
a better image, Yeah, gives them a stainless steel reputation
(11:17):
to now. At the time, this Allegheny medal was being
sold as rustless steel, and Ford liked this so much
and always always a guy on the ball about marketing
opportunities as well. Uh, it occurred to the Ford Company
to make um I believe it was three two doors
(11:38):
sedans in and these were made entirely by Ford Motor Company.
UM Allegheny was not involved with this other than being
the supplier of the steel. And I'm not sure how
aware they were Affords plans at this point, but um,
these two doors to Dan Scott were made entirely out
(11:59):
of stainless steel. Right. Now, Alleghany did have a little
something to do with it later on and that they
used it in an ad. So okay. So these are
these three Ford two door sedans that are built in
ninety one and Ford since uh Ford since one's Alley. Yeah,
they do they they They're built with fenders and hood
and splash aprons and body and wheels. Made it all
made of steamless right. So these are these are I
(12:21):
mean just like you know the de Lorean body. It's
an all metal, unpainted body. Um. Okay, they're not offered
to the public first of all. Uh. Two of them
went to steel corporations. One was kept by a Ford
motor company. Um. Time, there's a Time magazine ad in um.
You know what. Before I go too much further, I
want to say this. I'm gonna get back to Time
and uh there was an article by Walter Gosden and
(12:42):
I'm getting most of this information from and he wrote
an article in this is the Way back in um
it is in special interest autos, And I'm getting a
lot of this information from there because this is a
great history of these these vehicles throughout I mean throughout
time we'll find out. Um I've updated it with a
little bit of info. So here and there I'll all
you when I've done that. UM. So again back to
the Time magazine ad uh November eighth, nineteen thirty one.
(13:05):
This is in the same year, UM Alleghany Metal UM
which I'm not sure what they're called, Alleghany loved them
steel Corps, I think at that time. UM, they printed
this ad with the photo of this thing you know,
this the steel stainless steel car, and it says, well,
next year's cars look like this. UM. Now. They used
it in the main office in their mill in breckon Ridge, Pennsylvania,
(13:29):
and I was displayed at the front entrance all the
way up until the early nineteen forties, so it was
on display at the Alleghany Steel Company or whatever they're called. Then. Yeah,
let's see, let's say a t I do you want
to go to the next phases? Well, not quite yet,
because because we have to find out what happened to
those three cars, and I can and later I'm gonna
(13:50):
do at the very end of this podcast, I'm gonna
do a wrap up of I'm kind of do kind
of a where are they now? Because this is a
this is a neat thing to look at here, and
this is where you can go see them now. Yeah,
and they'll be like the picture the eighties movies endings
where it freezes on different characters. It's like so and
so went on too. We'll say some of them, because
some of them have mysteriously disappeared. So there's a little
(14:13):
a little nugget that you might want to hang. Yeah, maybe,
but they're really there's some interesting stories here, alright, So
we'll get to it. So by mid okay I mentioned
that it was on display in the front entrance of
the company until mid forties. Right, alright, so read's right
around World War two, right, and um, the steel companies, well,
the pr Department decided that it would be best if
(14:33):
they use these cars for part of the scrap metal campaign,
which sounds like a cry and shame these days, but
we do have to remember that at this time, um,
that was not only a show of patriotism perhaps, but
it was also um it was also an indicator of
the priorities at the time. Exactly. Yes, they did what
(14:54):
they felt was the best. They melted it down, UM
in their own companies furnaces, you know, as part of
the war effort and use the medal for the war effort. Um.
The other car went to a place called the Universal
Steel Company, which I think in nineteen eighty was called
Cyclops Corps, and they used the stainless steel car for
ad campaigns, you know, conventions, pr that type of thing. Um.
(15:16):
I think they said over five years. It had something
like two and or fifty thousand miles in the car
because it was driven driven all over the places as
part of the um well publicity exactly. And um the
car was in Chicago as far as anybody knows for
the last couple of years of its existence. It was
sold to an employee and then it just disappeared without
(15:36):
a trace. Which makes this Scott Ben's official farm find
of the year. If you can find this one, if
you find that nineteen thirty one stainless steel Ford Model A,
that car is going to be worth a fortune. And
the thing is that stainless steel bend. This is what
this one has it. This is why this one has
a leg up on the competition, I guess in in
(15:57):
disappeared cars, because the body may be great, everything else
is gonna be you know, it's going to be completely shot.
But as we'll find out, a lot of these that
happened to Um. Alright, So anyways, we're onto the next one.
So now Ford had one of these cars as well. Um.
They also after a good number of years, they ended
(16:17):
up cutting the car into pieces for a display, which
sounds horrific again at that, you know now looking back,
but that's what they do at the time. You know,
here's our here's our test vehicle. This is kind of
something unique. We're gonna we're gonna be on the auto
show circuit. Let's cut this up and show the public
what it's all about. Oh my gosh, before we go
any further, I know I sounded ridiculous when I just
said that, But before we go any further, Scott, we
(16:39):
have to explain what differentiates stainless steel from regular steel.
Please just hit me as we're talking about this, barn
find this thing will survive. Stainless denotes a steel that
has more than ten percent chromium. That's that's basically it.
And so this there, there are many grades of this.
Before we get the email, Um, the many many many
(17:01):
grades of this. Yeah, there are many, many varieties that
will have different properties for different applications. However, when you
hear people like Scott and I saying stainless steel, we
are describing something that has at least more than ten
percent chromium. And as a result of this, it is
much I don't want to see impossible, but I want
(17:23):
to see much much more difficult for it to rust
in comparison to regulars. And when it comes to clean
up on something like this, I mean, really, it's just
a scouring pad and some type of cleaner at cleanser. Um,
it's not you know, it's not the way you handle paint. Obviously,
it's quite different. I mean, look up how you you
clean a DeLorean for instance, And I'm sure there's a
(17:44):
lot of articles out there about that about that specific thing,
like how do I clean this thing? It's probably a
sketch bright pad or something like that. Um, something very
very abrasive. You would think that would never touch a car.
But in this case, it's okay. Yeah, you'll even hear no,
this is the one I heard, I know in my
other sidebar of a sidebar. Now, but I heard people saying,
(18:05):
just you know, use alcohol or break cleaner. Yeah, I
know it sounds harsh man. But that's what you do,
and it it won't hurt it. Um, it's again, you're
not You're not dealing with a delicate paint surface. You're
dealing with you know, with multiple layers. You're just dealing
with bare metal. Really, this is a this is a
bare metal vehicle. Um just happens to be stainless steel,
which you know, could be any variety of finishes. Um.
(18:27):
A lot of these cars that we're talking about, they
have this really really bright finish. They're very polished, um,
almost not quite as polished as like the chrome cars
that we're seeing now, like you know, the hip hop
stars are using you driving around town. It's not like
Justin Bieber's Fisker Karma and it looks looks like it
looks like a mirror, you know, it's not like that.
These are more of a brushed look, um, more of
(18:48):
a subdued look at Yeah, a little bit opaque in comparison. Yeah, yes,
but they do in the photos. I mean, they're they're
so clean and fresh, they almost appear white. So fresh
and so clean, that is true, very funny. I do
live in Atlanta. But let's go to nine. Yeah, we're
actually we're up to nineteen thirty six, and this is
the second series of cars. Now, remember all three of
(19:09):
the originals are gone. Really, I mean the one disappears.
We don't know where it happened to that way. UM
nineteen thirty six, UM, the Allegheny Steel Company ordered six
cars to be built because they had, you know, great
success with the one that they had in nineteen thirty one. UM.
So again the same vehicle, Forward Ford two door sedans.
They love that car, just like binding Clyde did. Right.
(19:30):
I think they upgraded to a deluxe for they Yeah yeah,
yeah maybe, but again these four V eights right right,
and so it's the two door sedans. Um. Now I
guess the problem with these things, and now they ordered six. Um.
The tools and diyes were set up at the time
for um STE a different type of steel called carbon steel,
and carbon steel, I guess was a lot easier to press.
(19:52):
I mean it didn't take quite as much effort to
create body panels out of carbon steel. UM. So the
mole and the dyes and everything that they used to
to create these body parts they weren't strong enough for
stainless steel because it was a tougher, more brittle type
of steel and so completely as as the article said,
I think it would wipe out the dies. So they
(20:13):
had to do this towards the end of the production
run for that year because it would it would destroy
the tooling that they used to to create these things
and in making them so um difficult difficult to build.
But so now there's a couple of little problems here
and there. There was also welding problems you know, that
went along with this, and just other issues with you know,
getting things to look quite right, you know, getting all
(20:35):
the the graining of it to match and all that stuff. Yeah,
there were some technical aspects of working with stainless steel
on this level that were the fuddling, but not impossible
to achieve. We know that they did manage to build them. Yeah,
they built six cars and they were all driven from
this is this is where they went from Detroit where
(20:56):
they were built. They're all driven to Pennsylvania and then
from there, I guess district managers whoever from you know, Allegheny,
drove them to branch offices and the offices were in Chicago,
New York, Cleveland, St. Louis, Philadelphia, and then another one
that went back to Detroit. Um, you know, just they
wanted to I guess symbolically to have their their branch
manager drive it, you know, back from Pennsylvania to Detroit again.
(21:20):
And that makes sense. Um, this is the part where
someone is saying, wow, that's a lot of driving, right,
and and they're correct, because each of these six logged
I think over two hundred thousand miles. And that was
the whole point of these things, really, it was to
get them out on the road. Because what what does
a car like this show you? Ben It shows you craftsmanship, right,
(21:40):
It shows you that, it shows you the product. It
shows you because if you cover a car up with paint,
you know who knows what's under there? Um, it shows
you the the I don't know how to best say this, maybe,
but just like the u UM, the actual steel itself,
the the the the craftsmanship that went into the vehicle,
and and our product is being used for this. It's
it's all steel, and it's a live demonstration every time
(22:04):
a customer sees the vehicle. Because the what I especially
enjoy about this is that this is not just some
proof of concept that's tucked up in a showroom somewhere.
This is actually on the road and driving, which makes
a much bigger difference naked cars. That's what it is.
It's it's a bunch of naked cars driving around right now.
(22:26):
The more they could drive them, the better off they were.
So they took them to conventions, they use them in ads,
they parked them outside of their dealings. They're not dealership
at their their mills. Um. But it was just a
it was a great promotional tool. And of course they
were eye catchers because you know how many how many
uh stainless steel cars do you think he saw driving
around in nineteen right, and absolutely well six you saw us? Well,
(22:48):
unless you saw that one, because let's remember, um, that's
still the thirties, so up until the mid forties you
could still go to Allegheny and see one of the
original model A stainless steels. You're absolutely right, there is
some overlap there because they still had they still had
the car and display when they ordered the other the
additional six. So maybe that was why they the original one.
(23:10):
They didn't have that much trouble melting it down. They
could say like, well, we've got six others that are
out there. You hadn't thought of that overlap bit but
you're right, and Henry still had one at that very
good so m one one other good point that Ali
ghenium Ford made Later They said, well, I don't know, Scott,
where do you want to go with this? Do you
(23:30):
want to talk about the fate of those six if
you want to move on to the next phase. Let
me just kind of go through these notes here, because
I took them from that article and it had such
a great um that's such a great chronological order of
the way this thing all happened. So you know, again
we mentioned their user promotional. The bodies, I guess the
car bodies stayed in fantastic shape. The non stainless steel
(23:52):
parts did not. Yeah, you got to remember that the
underpinnings of these these vehicles were strictly Model A. So um,
it was regular steel. It was what carbon steel or
whatever they happened to be using iron and a lot
of cases for you know, a lot of suspension, etcetera.
And uh, you know, think about the the offices that
I just mentioned. Those are all Midwest. Those are all
you know, in the snow belt up there, the rust belt,
(24:14):
and you know, obviously there was salt and you know,
as snow and lots of moisture and everything. So you know,
the stainless steel bodies look great. Everything else underneath started
to deteriorate as you would expect in just a normal
you know, regular model acedan. I guess. Um, now again,
this articles in nineteen eighty, but as of nineteen eighty
(24:36):
four of those original cars still exist. Um, we can
find out, you know what, Let's save all this for
the end, I guess. But um, the Detroit car, the
Chicago car, um, and then well, you know, I'll tell
you what. I've got a list of where they are now.
So maybe we should just hang onto this. Okay, all right,
so let's move on to um up in time, I
(24:57):
guess because it was nineteen sixty. Yeah, there was a
there was a delay here, but Alleghany and Ford reached
excuse me a t I and Ford returned to this
notion where they said, hey, remember that thing we did
with stainless steel body cars, let's try let's try it again. Yeah,
(25:18):
it's nineteen sixty, so how long is that? That's twenty
four years, right, twenty four years ago, we build a
couple of cars. Let's try it again. What if you
got for us? And Ford said, well, how about a
couple of thunderbirds right what and see? And this is
an excellent idea. This is the part of the podcast
where predictably Scott and I are going to stop you
and say, if you have not yet, you should go
(25:39):
online and check out some photos of these cars, especially
the thunderbirds. As simple as this, search stainless steel thunderbirds
and you'll likely find the photos of these things. Now,
one thing that I want to need to mention here
before I just lose it out of my head because
I didn't write it down. Um, the thunderbirds in nineteen sixty,
Now they ordered two of them. The Thunderbirds were already
(26:00):
using stainless steel for a lot of the trim, a
lot of the poems, you know that. Of course, the bumpers,
things like that, so they had a good deal of
stainless steel on them already. Now they were just making
new bodies, I guess for these things, which was highly unusual.
And there's a company called, um, the Bud Company, and
the Bud Company was building the standard for Thunderbird bodies
(26:20):
back then. And the Bud Company is the one that
took care of building the stainless steel bodies for um
a T I as well. Yes, Uh, let's see now
in July eleven, nine sixty, that's when the first that's
when the two Thunderbirds roll off of the line. They've
got they've got bodies of T three zero two stainless steel.
(26:44):
But everything else, every other component scott is standard, which,
as we said, is not too much of a stretch,
not too much of a stretch, because they were already
doing that. Now, the cost to build them in nineteen
sixty and I didn't do one of those calculations, should
have I meant to, Uh, the cost in was about
twenty five thousand dollars each to build these things. So
that's an expensive car right there, very expensive for nine
(27:06):
six UM. But again the same exact use. They were
promotions again, uh, you know by A T I and
you know, just driven by you know well, as as
Curs mentioned, I think you know, top sales reps often
got a chance to use these things. It was just
used by officials in the company conventions whatever it was,
again just to show showcase. UM. Then it wasn't too
(27:27):
much longer. Ben we go up to move up to
nineteen sixty six and um again once again Allegheny, Ludlam
or a t I Again. Uh, they ordered two more cars.
Now in nineteen sixty six. Um, they wanted this is
this is an unusual car to order, I think, I
mean that's that the others weren't already. But um, they
ordered Lincoln Continental convertibles, which I think a lot of
(27:50):
people are really gonna gonna like the looks of these.
These are big, you know, slab side convertibles, huge cars
just just I mean land yeah, land yeah, road whales,
whatever you want to call them. They're huge. Um. Now,
the thing is four built, or actually Lincoln built three
of these because of course they wanted they wanted to
keep one, so um, Alleghany got to and the Lincoln
(28:12):
Mercury division kept one. Now, these costs in nineteen sixty six.
They cost thirty thousand dollars each to build, which again
an awful lot of money. Um. I mentioned that Lincoln
Mercury kept one. Now, the Alleghany cars were updated, uh
to nineteen sixty seven specs, so they look like sixty
seven models in an appearance package that they that they
used on them, right, and they've kept I think it's
(28:35):
it's a good point for us to make here that
they have kept. Um the practice sometimes of putting these
out towards the end of the production. Yeah, exactly, because
again because of the the the harshness of the stainless
steel on the tooling equipment, because it's not set up
for that. It set up for like a mild steel, um,
which is what you know, most cars are made up.
(28:57):
I guess if they're not composite now or whatever. But
you know, the steel cars of the day were mild
steel and much easier to to you know, to stamp
out now. Um, so they kept it. Anyways, they kept
the Alleghany company. Your A T. I kept two of
those cars, and they used them for the same purposes again,
same same exact thing. Toward kept one or Lincoln Mercury
(29:18):
kept one. Um much later. The third car was also
purchased from Lincoln Mercury by Allegheny and Uh, I guess
the car was damaged. I guess during story some sometimes
when it was stored at the Lincoln Mercury office. I
don't know if it's in a warehouse or it was
damaged in some way. Um, the A T. I purchased
(29:39):
the car from Lincoln Mercury or you know, received it
from I don't know if they just gave it to
him or not. But um and then that specific car,
the one that they bought from Lincoln Mercury, was moved
to a place called the Crawford Museum in way back
in night and I think that's still there. So, man,
I mean, here we are. We've got this, this this
long history that goes from what nint one six, nineteen
(30:02):
sixty sixty six and sixty seven I guess if you
want to count sixty seven because they updated the look.
But um man, a lot of these things are are
still operable and still around. Right now, does that give
us a grand total of eleven cars? You've been keeping
track here, right, because um let's see, I know, yep,
(30:24):
it's more than that nine. Uh what cars? Is that? Right? Well,
let's see if we if we're messing this out. But
of course now we get to the part where we
get to say, uh, some of our favorite and least
(30:45):
favorite things. One of our least favorite things to say
is that some of these cars have been destroyed. We
mentioned it earlier in the podcast, but as we do
a quick breakdown, Um, Scott, you had mentioned that of
the of the original the old school nine model. As
we know that two were destroyed and we know that
(31:07):
one is missing, missing in action. It's out there somewhere,
that's the thing, Like it's I doubt that it's been
cannibalized or you know that that people have taken pieces
off it so that you know it's it's scattered. I
think I personally believe that this thing is parked somewhere.
So now it doesn't have to be in Chicago, because
it disappears from the Chicago area. That has nothing that
(31:29):
there has no impact on this story at all. It
could be anywhere. I mean, obviously it's a car I
can drive somewhere, someone could buy it anywhere in the world. Really,
um unlikely that went somewhere else in the world because
there might be a shipping manifestore or something that would
show up on But you know, I I this is
one of those cars that I'd like to believe that
someone will find in a barn someday, just the body.
(31:51):
Maybe everything else will be decayed all around. But but
I'd like to see the thirty one car comeback me too,
because those are visually striking. Now, then we go to
an ninety six, We've got the six stabless steel vehicles there.
You know, we've got six that were built and four
I think are still are around. Yeah, let's see, I mean,
(32:11):
let's yeah, yeah, four of them are still around, that's right. Um.
There's the Detroit car, which is UM. Now it's at
a place called the Auto Aviation Museum in Cleveland, Ohio.
There was the Chicago car that's owned that was owned
by a physician. UM, part of a private collection. Because
once these cars were done with, you know, done with
their service at the company, they were sold to oftentimes
(32:33):
employees that then sold in somebody else. But you know,
sometimes he's ended up in other people's hands. Now, Um,
there's a two thousand eight update on that one specifically,
UM in that Let's see, where did that one end up? Hum? Now,
I did not go to a museum. It went to UM.
I think that one ended up in a you know,
(32:54):
at this guy named Ed James who showed up at
the swap me. This is the craziest thing. He's in Dearborn,
Michigan and so the home of Ford really Um, he
shows up um in two thousand and eight, I believe
it was. Now this is an update from the Hemmings
blog where I found the other article as well. Um,
he's got it on a trailer. He had just purchased
it like two weeks prior. But he's got one of
the nineteen thirty six Ford two door sedans. UM. And
(33:17):
the only one I can figured that it would be
would be the one that was owned by this physician.
Um that was part of his private collection, which he
passed away, left it to his son, and his son
sold it as part of the estate auction. And this
is where this Ed James guy picked it up. Now,
it hadn't been restored or anything like that. So, Um,
what Ed James did with that car after two thousand
(33:38):
and eight, I have no idea because the trail kind
of dies off right there. Um. Then there are two
there are two other cars that were owned by the
or they're still owned by the Allegheny Love Them Steel
Company or a t I I keep saying that. Um,
so they have two of them that that they housed
their warehouse or wherever. Um. And then of course there
are two cars that are missing again with no trace,
(33:59):
the ninet thirty six cars. They just disappeared all right
now before we get to nineteen sixty, UM, I do
want to tell you about something else. All right, Well,
you know we've been kind of doing these audiobooks, right, yes, yes,
from from audible dot Com. And I found one that
I think is really really cool. It's that's the title
of it is Engines of Change, History of the American
(34:22):
Dream in fifteen cars. And what this does it it's
it's really kind of and I'll tell you right now,
it's it's kind of a slow moving narrative. But don't
let that, you know, dismay you. It's that it takes
each of these cars that I'll mention here, and I'm
not gonna mention all fifteen, but it's like a biography
of the car and then a mention of what was
(34:43):
going on socially in America at the time and how
the car changed it and how it how it was
influenced by that. Um it's kind of this. It's this
really great um telling of the American story through each
car and and through the time period in which it existed.
I guess. And you know what, I have listened to
some excerpts of that on audible podcast dot com. No kidding, yeah,
(35:05):
because I was I was looking for a neat book
to recommend when we do when when we do our
spot here and I gotta tell you this one convert
to be. This is one that if I were not
already registered with Audible, I would register to hear more
of because I think it's a very, um fascinating perspective
(35:26):
to have on history. Now, Um, which which of the
cars have you seen listed there that you really want
to hear about? Well, I mean there's several of them.
I mean the the the sample alone was enough to
grab me. It was about the Model T. And it
goes so far as to tell you what the neighborhood
is like now in the in the in the region
of the factory where the original Model T was built,
(35:46):
and then it goes back to what it used to
look like, you know, and and then what was happening
at the time. And so it's really a fascinating listen,
I guess. But the Model T, there's the Volkswagen Beetle,
the corve Air, Mustang g t O even goes up
to like the Honda a chord of the BMW three series. Um,
of course the jeep vehicles. Um. And there's and there's
seven more in addition to that that they don't list.
(36:07):
But um, I'm really I'm kind of dying to listen
to what they've got, you know, what they have in
store for us, right And we have a lot of
listeners who are maybe on a road trip right now,
commuting to or from working home and thinking, Hey, man,
what am I gonna do after I'm out of Car
Stuff podcast or How Stuff Works podcast? Well, you can
(36:29):
check out audible podcast dot com slash car stuff and
if you register on there, then you'll be able to
get a free audio book download of your choice, anything
you want. It doesn't have to be engines of change,
although Scott and I are hooked on this one. Uh,
it could be one of any of their thousands of
titles about everything from automobiles to aunt eaters. Just one
(36:53):
more thing about this thing. It's just it's a unique
look at the American story, I guess in that um,
it's not only tells you about the automobile itself and
and how that all came about, but it's more about, like,
you know, how the automobiles like the lure of freedom
for a lot of people, and uh, and you know
about automobile manufacturing of course, but it was also about
(37:13):
like the birth of suburbia, and about um. I think
they even mentioned like the emancipation of women, and the
energy crisis and pollution and and just all these things,
all these surrounding factors they go into into the story
of what's happening when these cars are made. So it's
a it's a really good story and I think it
might be podcast inspiration for us in the future. What
(37:36):
do you think, I definitely think so, yeah, for sure.
So let's let's pick it back up again with with
nineteen sixty and where these cars are because we we
talked about the thirty one and thirty six models. Where
are the Thunderbirds now? I think a lot of people
once you see the photos, you'll be happy to know
that these Thunderbirds made it because both the two of
them that were built are both still owned by a
(37:57):
t I. UM, so they're still in secure hands. They're
they're safe. Yeah. One, um, let's see now, I think
one of those is at the Antique Auto Museum in Hershey, Pennsylvania.
UM one of the Thunderbirds and one of the nineteen
sixty seven Lincoln's as well. Okay, uh, this was oh no, wait,
(38:18):
you know what they've moved. They were on loan. Well,
you know, temporarily. This is a tough thing to track
down because they could be moving as we speak. You
don't know where they are, what part of part of
what display they're on right now. So we're gonna we're
just doing our best to try to tell you where
they are. But at least they're out there and they
exist if you can track them down, if you can
find them at a local museum at that you know,
I don't know the Peterson Museum or wherever you're gonna be. Um,
(38:41):
you know, the Atlanta Museum here had an automobiles art yes,
at the High Museum, yeah, exactly, and these things probably
would fit right in there. But all right, let's move
up to the nineteen sixties six models, the Lincoln Continental Convertibles.
Now the three builds. Once again, we have good news
because all three are still owned by A. T. I
and the hand. So um now after purchasing purchasing the
(39:04):
third car from Lincoln Mercury. Um, you know, so they've
they've got all three. Now. Remember they originally ordered two,
and they purchased the damaged one exactly in Lincoln Mercury exactly.
So now they have all three. So I just thought
that was an important note to make. Now. According to
the A t I side, if you look there, they
mentioned that nine and the eleven cars built are still
in use. Um, it seems like they've completely ignored the
(39:27):
three cars built in one, which is which is weird,
I think, because surely they have pictures and documentation. But
that's something that befuddled me too, because earlier in this
podcast I mentioned that eleven number. But we were talking
before we recorded, and we both pointed out that the
story does go further. Thir t I just doesn't have
it on their what well, they're okay, just to get
(39:49):
this all straight, there fourteen stainless steel cars that were
produced by Ford Motor Company or Lincoln Order Company for uh,
for the steel corporations and for you know themselves, for
their own promotional uses. And of those fourteen cars, and
now I'm trying to get this straight. Now, the three
let's see, I guess that they mentioned that nine of
them are still in use. Um, yeah, it will still
(40:13):
be the same nine of the fourteen cars, right, well,
we would say possibly ten. Nine of the fourteen are
known their location is like they're known to be. But
that third one, yeah, we now and there's also the
two missing cars from the nine group, and so there's
three of them that are out there. That's the thing.
There are three cars that are out there potentially as
(40:34):
Barn Barn finds for somebody. And you know that, I
know there are people that go out there and do this,
they go out and look for cars. I wonder if
anybody's actively searching for these stainless steel cars, because I mean, again, Ben,
these are these are something that you could really have
a good shot at finding. I mean, I mean far
greater chance and something that's just gonna decay and and
end up as a as a pile of rust in
(40:55):
a field. These are going to be the full thing,
I mean, much more durable, exact and Scott, I think
that's where we leave it today with our with our
story of the Alleghany Ludlam forward stainless steel cars. Now
we also we got pretty involved in this research and
we both came with a couple of things about other
(41:18):
steel stainless steel or bare metal cars like a lot
of hot rods. Right, yeah, exactly, But we might have
to save that and make that a story for another day.
I think I'll tell you what I think, um now,
Curtis got us started on the stainless steel cars. We
started to look into it and this bare metal car
thing came up. I want to do Bare Metal Cars
as its own podcast in the in the in the
(41:38):
near future, the real near future, because I think these
are really interesting as well. So Curtis, thank you. You
have inspired us to do not one, but two podcasts
on bare metal and stainless steel cars. We hope that
you guys enjoyed the show. We hope even more so
that you know where one of these missing three vehicles
is at um right to us let us know. You
(42:01):
can find us on Facebook. You can drop us a
line under a hundred and forty something characters at Twitter
and I had to talk really quickly. That's like the
micro machine voice for details. UM. But you know, if
people want to skip past that whole social media rigormurole, uh,
they can email us directly at car stuff at Discovery
dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics,
(42:27):
how stuff works dot com. Let us know what you think.
Send an email to podcast at how stuff works dot com.
Let's go behind the wheel, under the hood and beyond
with car stuff from how stuff works dot com. Everyone,
welcome to car Stuff. I'm Scott Benjamin and Ben Bullan Ben. Today,
we've got a topic that comes from a listener and um,
he wanted to Well, let's just read the email and
(00:22):
maybe that'll be the best way to lead into this. Yeah,
how about his words? Even his words? And this comes
from Curtis, And Curtis says, Uh, first, let me say
I'm a big fan of your podcast. I'm a sales
rep in Texas and drive about four thousand miles per month,
so podcast had become a great way of passing the miles.
I have a couple of stories I thought you might enjoy.
I'm wondering if you've ever seen this Allegheny steel car
(00:44):
and the story behind it. And he sent along a
couple of photos. Um, Curtis said, Uh, several years ago,
I received an email with pictures that are attached that
I attached to this email. Um a copy of the
email into word documents that said I'd remember the story
and the story is that, Um, Well, it's a picture
of a ninety six Ford coupe that was built and
(01:04):
owned and built four and owned by the Alleghany Ludlum
Steel Company UM. This note says that this is one
of only foreign existence and is the only one currently
in running and roadworthy condition. The car is an exceptional condition,
with the interior and even the frame looking great. All
four cars had over two hundred thousand miles on them
before they were removed from service. Uh. They were built
(01:25):
for Alleghany as promotional marketing projects. The top salesman each
year were given the honor of being able to drive
them for one year. UM svit engine brands really runs
really smooth, really quiet, etcetera. So so Curtis says, I
just wonder if you had seen anything about these only
stainless steel cars and uh, and you know, kind of
maybe what's a little bit more of a backstory on
(01:46):
these things? Right? Oh, buddy, Curtis, thank you for writing.
We were excited to receive this email and it got
us thinking about stainless steel cars in general, especially Allegheny
oft stainless steel cars, because there's a story there, right, Scott, Yeah,
that's right. There's this whole chronology of vehicles that that
(02:07):
UM arises from. I don't know if that's the best
way to say it or not. But from um Allegheny
and from the steel company brother and UH and Ford
Motor Company, UM and and it goes way way back,
farther than you might think, because a lot of a
lot of people maybe the first time they've ever heard
of a stainless steel car was the Deloreans, right, and
the Deloreans still to this day remains the only mass
(02:31):
produced stainless steel car. UH. There were a total of
over nine thousand. I just want to say that it's over.
That's an internet joke. Somebody is gonna get that. Somebody's laughing.
They might be groaning, Scott, but they get what I'm
putting down there. Um. But the number is closer to
nine thousand, two hundred Deloreans over three model years, two
(02:54):
calendar years. And you can you can look into our
past catalog to learn everything about the DeLorean company and
John Delorian himself, because we cover it in not one
but two podcasts that I think so, and we've mentioned
it many many times. Um. You know, the whole thing
about the dies being sunk off the coast of Ireland
(03:16):
and or wherever they were, yea somewhere to the that's
the rumor that they were used as anchors. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And uh, you know, just the unusual fact that it's
a it's an Irish sports car, right, which it's kind
of strange, and and of course you know that the
unusual characteristics of it, and and the and the unusual
founder of the company, John DeLorean, and all of his eccentricities,
(03:40):
and um, I don't know, it's just an interesting car.
I mean, of course it has that brush stainless steel
body that everybody loves to, you know, point out that.
You know, that's so unique, that's so different. But if
you go way way back, I mean, there's a car
that that goes back exactly fifty years prior to the
Dolorean that begins all this. Yes, Now, someone who is
(04:00):
a stute, if you've just done the math and you
already know a little bit about these steel cars, then
you might be saying, wait, Scott got the numbers wrong.
But he didn't. I mean, I'm sorry you didn't. No, no, no,
I didn't. It It goes back truly fifty years because
the Dorian d M C twelve was produced from eight
to eighty two. Two. Um, we're gonna find out that
(04:22):
the first Ford stainless steel car that was delivered to
these steel companies was delivered in nineteen thirty one. So, Curtis,
usually when you're hearing the story of the stainless steel
cars by Allegheny Ludlam, what you'll hear is that they
started in nineteen thirty six. However, that's not entirely true.
That is the first year the Allegheny, Ludlam and Ford
(04:44):
worked together to make some stainless steel cars. But we
need to start the story a little bit earlier, like
you said, Scott nine one ninety one, but then it
goes back a lot farther than that because this company,
I think we got to mention this at this point
that you know, we don't want to confuse anybody with
the way we we we're using names here because, um,
(05:04):
this Allegheny Steel Company went through a lot of different
name changes throughout the years. Now I've got about a
hundred and twelve years of changes here. It's only five
name changes, and I'll quickly go through them. But this
will give an idea of of who this company is,
who they were, who they are now, and who they've
been throughout the time. Throughout time so let's go back
to nineteen o one. Uh, they were the Alleghany Steel
(05:25):
and Iron Company. They were headquartered in western Pennsylvania. That's
where this whole thing was incorporated and began. It's the
nineteen o one. By the nineteen twenties they were known
as the Allegheny Steel Company. So just you know, small
changes here and there, right, Um, Now, this is kind
of where their work with stainless steel began. Even though
stainless steel was kind of discovered I guess in the
(05:46):
early nineteen hundreds, like maybe right around in the turn
of the century. I've got a little bit of that.
Oh sure, yeah, you're right. Right around the turn of
the century, Elwood Haynes developed and patented the crusion resistant
stainless steel. Uh so that's around Um, you're gonna get
different reports there, but it is turning the century nineteen fifteen,
(06:07):
all right, fair enough to alright, So by the nineteen twenties,
that's when they're starting to really start to work with
this kind of new material, I guess. And you'll find
that if you read the history of the company, if
you go on their site, um, all through you know,
throughout their history they've been developing different formulas for this,
so you know, they have different numbers, different codes for
the different uh strengths, and different uses for the steel. UM.
(06:29):
We're not gonna get too wrapped up in that, I
promise in this podcast. But UM, you know they started
getting patent awards and things like that around the nineteen twenties.
By nine seven, Ben, this is the same company that
was using their steel. Their stainless steel was used to
to build the Chrysler building in in downtown New York. Yes,
and they also, uh, they also were instrumental in some
(06:53):
rail interests, in other architectural marvels of the time. I mean,
these guys are big time. Yeah. The trim for Ford
Model A cars at the time, in which is important,
very important. So they're supplying stainless steel trim for the
Ford Model A cars. In UM that becomes really important
because this this partnership with Ford is something that UM
(07:15):
in the nineteen thirties when they finally became action finally,
but when they became known Allegheny Ludlam Steel Corporation by
combining with the yeah, the Ludlum Steel Company, the Alleghany
Steel Company, in the Ludlum Steel company. Um, you find
that you know that that partnership worked out for them. UM.
Just as a side note, as we go through time here,
(07:36):
and we're gonna go back to the nineteen thirties in
just a minute. UM, in the nineteen sixties, there was
a company called tele Dine Incorporated was just founded. Um,
it was a fourty UM. That's important because in in
the nineteen nineties, that's when they kind of link up. UM.
But I want to actually mention this. In nineteen seventies, Uh,
this Allegheny Ludlum Steel Corporation, they built parts for the
(07:58):
for the Concorde ben. Uh. Yeah, the titanium titanium hydraulic
systems in the Concorde were built by Allegheny Ludland Steel Corporation. UM.
And then again I mentioned Teldine. Allegheny Teldine Incorporated was
formed of course when the two of them merged. And
now since they're called Allegheny Technologies Incorporated. And this is
(08:22):
all important because I'm just gonna call them a T
I and that's what they go by. Yet they go
by a T I. And today they are still one
of the They've grown actually to become one of the
largest companies in their industry in the world. They manufacture
not just stainless steel, not just different types of stainless steel,
but a wide range of various products for I think
(08:46):
I think it says both consumer and capitalist markets. So
this means that they just don't they don't just produce
steel for cars right now, or for just buildings, but
they would also douce the tool steel needed to make
uh parts for factories exactly. Okay, So they've they've got
(09:06):
this long, long history of just lots of innovations and
patents and and it's really surprising things. I mean, we're
we're saying this because we wanted to get you guys
to get an idea that this company is really a
standout company in the steel industry and that you know,
going way back, they've had a lot of um, a
lot of I guess points in their history where where
you know, they've been developed. Uh, they've worked on iconic buildings, UM,
(09:29):
iconic vehicles, UM, iconic systems for things like the Concorde,
and I mean even today there's still there's a growing
list of things like this. Okay, So it's kind of
a big deal. Yeah, it's kind of a huge deal.
I think let's go back to the thirties, right, Yeah,
let's get let's get on the steel car. We just
wanted you to know what a big company a t
(09:51):
I is and uh, how it's evolved over time. So
Henry Ford is what's the most diplomatic way to say this,
Scott Henry Fors a whack of American all right. Uh
he he is, at the very least a gentleman with
very definite opinions about what he does and does not like,
(10:12):
hard to please, shut notoriously. So however, he loves this
stainless steel, doesn't. Yeah, the guy, you know, I tell you,
the guy was a genius. I mean he really was.
I mean all the ribbing and stuff that we do
about him here, and we've talked about him extensively, um
on this show and other shows. Um, I mean it
really he he had, he was on the ball with
(10:32):
a lot of this stuff, and to use stainless steel
in his vehicles early on like this now, I mean
even today, you know, it's a it's a big deal.
If you get a stainless steel exhaust on a car,
you get a stainles, you get stainless steel wheels or whatever.
It's still that's still a great product to use. I mean,
and even back then in the early days of stainless steel,
Henry recognized that, you know, this is something that uh,
(10:53):
you know, could give his vehicles a little more longevity
than than some of his competitors. And for just a
few dollars more in some aces for trim and pieces
like radiator cowlings and things like that, it's totally worth
it for him to have those things not be rusted out.
And that's uh that that even, I mean, that's a
few extra dollars here and there gives his company even
a better image, Yeah, gives them a stainless steel reputation
(11:17):
to now. At the time, this Allegheny medal was being
sold as rustless steel, and Ford liked this so much
and always always a guy on the ball about marketing
opportunities as well. Uh, it occurred to the Ford Company
to make um I believe it was three two doors
(11:38):
sedans in and these were made entirely by Ford Motor Company.
UM Allegheny was not involved with this other than being
the supplier of the steel. And I'm not sure how
aware they were Affords plans at this point, but um,
these two doors to Dan Scott were made entirely out
(11:59):
of stainless steel. Right. Now, Alleghany did have a little
something to do with it later on and that they
used it in an ad. So okay. So these are
these three Ford two door sedans that are built in
ninety one and Ford since uh Ford since one's Alley. Yeah,
they do they they They're built with fenders and hood
and splash aprons and body and wheels. Made it all
made of steamless right. So these are these are I
(12:21):
mean just like you know the de Lorean body. It's
an all metal, unpainted body. Um. Okay, they're not offered
to the public first of all. Uh. Two of them
went to steel corporations. One was kept by a Ford
motor company. Um. Time, there's a Time magazine ad in um.
You know what. Before I go too much further, I
want to say this. I'm gonna get back to Time
and uh there was an article by Walter Gosden and
(12:42):
I'm getting most of this information from and he wrote
an article in this is the Way back in um
it is in special interest autos, And I'm getting a
lot of this information from there because this is a
great history of these these vehicles throughout I mean throughout
time we'll find out. Um I've updated it with a
little bit of info. So here and there I'll all
you when I've done that. UM. So again back to
the Time magazine ad uh November eighth, nineteen thirty one.
(13:05):
This is in the same year, UM Alleghany Metal UM
which I'm not sure what they're called, Alleghany loved them
steel Corps, I think at that time. UM, they printed
this ad with the photo of this thing you know,
this the steel stainless steel car, and it says, well,
next year's cars look like this. UM. Now. They used
it in the main office in their mill in breckon Ridge, Pennsylvania,
(13:29):
and I was displayed at the front entrance all the
way up until the early nineteen forties, so it was
on display at the Alleghany Steel Company or whatever they're called. Then. Yeah,
let's see, let's say a t I do you want
to go to the next phases? Well, not quite yet,
because because we have to find out what happened to
those three cars, and I can and later I'm gonna
(13:50):
do at the very end of this podcast, I'm gonna
do a wrap up of I'm kind of do kind
of a where are they now? Because this is a
this is a neat thing to look at here, and
this is where you can go see them now. Yeah,
and they'll be like the picture the eighties movies endings
where it freezes on different characters. It's like so and
so went on too. We'll say some of them, because
some of them have mysteriously disappeared. So there's a little
(14:13):
a little nugget that you might want to hang. Yeah, maybe,
but they're really there's some interesting stories here, alright, So
we'll get to it. So by mid okay I mentioned
that it was on display in the front entrance of
the company until mid forties. Right, alright, so read's right
around World War two, right, and um, the steel companies, well,
the pr Department decided that it would be best if
(14:33):
they use these cars for part of the scrap metal campaign,
which sounds like a cry and shame these days, but
we do have to remember that at this time, um,
that was not only a show of patriotism perhaps, but
it was also um it was also an indicator of
the priorities at the time. Exactly. Yes, they did what
(14:54):
they felt was the best. They melted it down, UM
in their own companies furnaces, you know, as part of
the war effort and use the medal for the war effort. Um.
The other car went to a place called the Universal
Steel Company, which I think in nineteen eighty was called
Cyclops Corps, and they used the stainless steel car for
ad campaigns, you know, conventions, pr that type of thing. Um.
(15:16):
I think they said over five years. It had something
like two and or fifty thousand miles in the car
because it was driven driven all over the places as
part of the um well publicity exactly. And um the
car was in Chicago as far as anybody knows for
the last couple of years of its existence. It was
sold to an employee and then it just disappeared without
(15:36):
a trace. Which makes this Scott Ben's official farm find
of the year. If you can find this one, if
you find that nineteen thirty one stainless steel Ford Model A,
that car is going to be worth a fortune. And
the thing is that stainless steel bend. This is what
this one has it. This is why this one has
a leg up on the competition, I guess in in
(15:57):
disappeared cars, because the body may be great, everything else
is gonna be you know, it's going to be completely shot.
But as we'll find out, a lot of these that
happened to Um. Alright, So anyways, we're onto the next one.
So now Ford had one of these cars as well. Um.
They also after a good number of years, they ended
(16:17):
up cutting the car into pieces for a display, which
sounds horrific again at that, you know now looking back,
but that's what they do at the time. You know,
here's our here's our test vehicle. This is kind of
something unique. We're gonna we're gonna be on the auto
show circuit. Let's cut this up and show the public
what it's all about. Oh my gosh, before we go
any further, I know I sounded ridiculous when I just
said that, But before we go any further, Scott, we
(16:39):
have to explain what differentiates stainless steel from regular steel.
Please just hit me as we're talking about this, barn
find this thing will survive. Stainless denotes a steel that
has more than ten percent chromium. That's that's basically it.
And so this there, there are many grades of this.
Before we get the email, Um, the many many many
(17:01):
grades of this. Yeah, there are many, many varieties that
will have different properties for different applications. However, when you
hear people like Scott and I saying stainless steel, we
are describing something that has at least more than ten
percent chromium. And as a result of this, it is
much I don't want to see impossible, but I want
(17:23):
to see much much more difficult for it to rust
in comparison to regulars. And when it comes to clean
up on something like this, I mean, really, it's just
a scouring pad and some type of cleaner at cleanser. Um,
it's not you know, it's not the way you handle paint. Obviously,
it's quite different. I mean, look up how you you
clean a DeLorean for instance, And I'm sure there's a
(17:44):
lot of articles out there about that about that specific thing,
like how do I clean this thing? It's probably a
sketch bright pad or something like that. Um, something very
very abrasive. You would think that would never touch a car.
But in this case, it's okay. Yeah, you'll even hear no,
this is the one I heard, I know in my
other sidebar of a sidebar. Now, but I heard people saying,
(18:05):
just you know, use alcohol or break cleaner. Yeah, I
know it sounds harsh man. But that's what you do,
and it it won't hurt it. Um, it's again, you're
not You're not dealing with a delicate paint surface. You're
dealing with you know, with multiple layers. You're just dealing
with bare metal. Really, this is a this is a
bare metal vehicle. Um just happens to be stainless steel,
which you know, could be any variety of finishes. Um.
(18:27):
A lot of these cars that we're talking about, they
have this really really bright finish. They're very polished, um,
almost not quite as polished as like the chrome cars
that we're seeing now, like you know, the hip hop
stars are using you driving around town. It's not like
Justin Bieber's Fisker Karma and it looks looks like it
looks like a mirror, you know, it's not like that.
These are more of a brushed look, um, more of
(18:48):
a subdued look at Yeah, a little bit opaque in comparison. Yeah, yes,
but they do in the photos. I mean, they're they're
so clean and fresh, they almost appear white. So fresh
and so clean, that is true, very funny. I do
live in Atlanta. But let's go to nine. Yeah, we're
actually we're up to nineteen thirty six, and this is
the second series of cars. Now, remember all three of
(19:09):
the originals are gone. Really, I mean the one disappears.
We don't know where it happened to that way. UM
nineteen thirty six, UM, the Allegheny Steel Company ordered six
cars to be built because they had, you know, great
success with the one that they had in nineteen thirty one. UM.
So again the same vehicle, Forward Ford two door sedans.
They love that car, just like binding Clyde did. Right.
(19:30):
I think they upgraded to a deluxe for they Yeah yeah,
yeah maybe, but again these four V eights right right,
and so it's the two door sedans. Um. Now I
guess the problem with these things, and now they ordered six. Um.
The tools and diyes were set up at the time
for um STE a different type of steel called carbon steel,
and carbon steel, I guess was a lot easier to press.
(19:52):
I mean it didn't take quite as much effort to
create body panels out of carbon steel. UM. So the
mole and the dyes and everything that they used to
to create these body parts they weren't strong enough for
stainless steel because it was a tougher, more brittle type
of steel and so completely as as the article said,
I think it would wipe out the dies. So they
(20:13):
had to do this towards the end of the production
run for that year because it would it would destroy
the tooling that they used to to create these things
and in making them so um difficult difficult to build.
But so now there's a couple of little problems here
and there. There was also welding problems you know, that
went along with this, and just other issues with you know,
getting things to look quite right, you know, getting all
(20:35):
the the graining of it to match and all that stuff. Yeah,
there were some technical aspects of working with stainless steel
on this level that were the fuddling, but not impossible
to achieve. We know that they did manage to build them. Yeah,
they built six cars and they were all driven from
this is this is where they went from Detroit where
(20:56):
they were built. They're all driven to Pennsylvania and then
from there, I guess district managers whoever from you know, Allegheny,
drove them to branch offices and the offices were in Chicago,
New York, Cleveland, St. Louis, Philadelphia, and then another one
that went back to Detroit. Um, you know, just they
wanted to I guess symbolically to have their their branch
manager drive it, you know, back from Pennsylvania to Detroit again.
(21:20):
And that makes sense. Um, this is the part where
someone is saying, wow, that's a lot of driving, right,
and and they're correct, because each of these six logged
I think over two hundred thousand miles. And that was
the whole point of these things, really, it was to
get them out on the road. Because what what does
a car like this show you? Ben It shows you craftsmanship, right,
(21:40):
It shows you that, it shows you the product. It
shows you because if you cover a car up with paint,
you know who knows what's under there? Um, it shows
you the the I don't know how to best say this, maybe,
but just like the u UM, the actual steel itself,
the the the the craftsmanship that went into the vehicle,
and and our product is being used for this. It's
it's all steel, and it's a live demonstration every time
(22:04):
a customer sees the vehicle. Because the what I especially
enjoy about this is that this is not just some
proof of concept that's tucked up in a showroom somewhere.
This is actually on the road and driving, which makes
a much bigger difference naked cars. That's what it is.
It's it's a bunch of naked cars driving around right now.
(22:26):
The more they could drive them, the better off they were.
So they took them to conventions, they use them in ads,
they parked them outside of their dealings. They're not dealership
at their their mills. Um. But it was just a
it was a great promotional tool. And of course they
were eye catchers because you know how many how many
uh stainless steel cars do you think he saw driving
around in nineteen right, and absolutely well six you saw us? Well,
(22:48):
unless you saw that one, because let's remember, um, that's
still the thirties, so up until the mid forties you
could still go to Allegheny and see one of the
original model A stainless steels. You're absolutely right, there is
some overlap there because they still had they still had
the car and display when they ordered the other the
additional six. So maybe that was why they the original one.
(23:10):
They didn't have that much trouble melting it down. They
could say like, well, we've got six others that are
out there. You hadn't thought of that overlap bit but
you're right, and Henry still had one at that very
good so m one one other good point that Ali
ghenium Ford made Later They said, well, I don't know, Scott,
where do you want to go with this? Do you
(23:30):
want to talk about the fate of those six if
you want to move on to the next phase. Let
me just kind of go through these notes here, because
I took them from that article and it had such
a great um that's such a great chronological order of
the way this thing all happened. So you know, again
we mentioned their user promotional. The bodies, I guess the
car bodies stayed in fantastic shape. The non stainless steel
(23:52):
parts did not. Yeah, you got to remember that the
underpinnings of these these vehicles were strictly Model A. So um,
it was regular steel. It was what carbon steel or
whatever they happened to be using iron and a lot
of cases for you know, a lot of suspension, etcetera.
And uh, you know, think about the the offices that
I just mentioned. Those are all Midwest. Those are all
you know, in the snow belt up there, the rust belt,
(24:14):
and you know, obviously there was salt and you know,
as snow and lots of moisture and everything. So you know,
the stainless steel bodies look great. Everything else underneath started
to deteriorate as you would expect in just a normal
you know, regular model acedan. I guess. Um, now again,
this articles in nineteen eighty, but as of nineteen eighty
(24:36):
four of those original cars still exist. Um, we can
find out, you know what, Let's save all this for
the end, I guess. But um, the Detroit car, the
Chicago car, um, and then well, you know, I'll tell
you what. I've got a list of where they are now.
So maybe we should just hang onto this. Okay, all right,
so let's move on to um up in time, I
(24:57):
guess because it was nineteen sixty. Yeah, there was a
there was a delay here, but Alleghany and Ford reached
excuse me a t I and Ford returned to this
notion where they said, hey, remember that thing we did
with stainless steel body cars, let's try let's try it again. Yeah,
(25:18):
it's nineteen sixty, so how long is that? That's twenty
four years, right, twenty four years ago, we build a
couple of cars. Let's try it again. What if you
got for us? And Ford said, well, how about a
couple of thunderbirds right what and see? And this is
an excellent idea. This is the part of the podcast
where predictably Scott and I are going to stop you
and say, if you have not yet, you should go
(25:39):
online and check out some photos of these cars, especially
the thunderbirds. As simple as this, search stainless steel thunderbirds
and you'll likely find the photos of these things. Now,
one thing that I want to need to mention here
before I just lose it out of my head because
I didn't write it down. Um, the thunderbirds in nineteen sixty,
Now they ordered two of them. The Thunderbirds were already
(26:00):
using stainless steel for a lot of the trim, a
lot of the poems, you know that. Of course, the bumpers,
things like that, so they had a good deal of
stainless steel on them already. Now they were just making
new bodies, I guess for these things, which was highly unusual.
And there's a company called, um, the Bud Company, and
the Bud Company was building the standard for Thunderbird bodies
(26:20):
back then. And the Bud Company is the one that
took care of building the stainless steel bodies for um
a T I as well. Yes, Uh, let's see now
in July eleven, nine sixty, that's when the first that's
when the two Thunderbirds roll off of the line. They've
got they've got bodies of T three zero two stainless steel.
(26:44):
But everything else, every other component scott is standard, which,
as we said, is not too much of a stretch,
not too much of a stretch, because they were already
doing that. Now, the cost to build them in nineteen
sixty and I didn't do one of those calculations, should
have I meant to, Uh, the cost in was about
twenty five thousand dollars each to build these things. So
that's an expensive car right there, very expensive for nine
(27:06):
six UM. But again the same exact use. They were
promotions again, uh, you know by A T I and
you know, just driven by you know well, as as
Curs mentioned, I think you know, top sales reps often
got a chance to use these things. It was just
used by officials in the company conventions whatever it was,
again just to show showcase. UM. Then it wasn't too
(27:27):
much longer. Ben we go up to move up to
nineteen sixty six and um again once again Allegheny, Ludlam
or a t I Again. Uh, they ordered two more cars.
Now in nineteen sixty six. Um, they wanted this is
this is an unusual car to order, I think, I
mean that's that the others weren't already. But um, they
ordered Lincoln Continental convertibles, which I think a lot of
(27:50):
people are really gonna gonna like the looks of these.
These are big, you know, slab side convertibles, huge cars
just just I mean land yeah, land yeah, road whales,
whatever you want to call them. They're huge. Um. Now,
the thing is four built, or actually Lincoln built three
of these because of course they wanted they wanted to
keep one, so um, Alleghany got to and the Lincoln
(28:12):
Mercury division kept one. Now, these costs in nineteen sixty six.
They cost thirty thousand dollars each to build, which again
an awful lot of money. Um. I mentioned that Lincoln
Mercury kept one. Now, the Alleghany cars were updated, uh
to nineteen sixty seven specs, so they look like sixty
seven models in an appearance package that they that they
used on them, right, and they've kept I think it's
(28:35):
it's a good point for us to make here that
they have kept. Um the practice sometimes of putting these
out towards the end of the production. Yeah, exactly, because
again because of the the the harshness of the stainless
steel on the tooling equipment, because it's not set up
for that. It set up for like a mild steel, um,
which is what you know, most cars are made up.
(28:57):
I guess if they're not composite now or whatever. But
you know, the steel cars of the day were mild
steel and much easier to to you know, to stamp
out now. Um, so they kept it. Anyways, they kept
the Alleghany company. Your A T. I kept two of
those cars, and they used them for the same purposes again,
same same exact thing. Toward kept one or Lincoln Mercury
(29:18):
kept one. Um much later. The third car was also
purchased from Lincoln Mercury by Allegheny and Uh, I guess
the car was damaged. I guess during story some sometimes
when it was stored at the Lincoln Mercury office. I
don't know if it's in a warehouse or it was
damaged in some way. Um, the A T. I purchased
(29:39):
the car from Lincoln Mercury or you know, received it
from I don't know if they just gave it to
him or not. But um and then that specific car,
the one that they bought from Lincoln Mercury, was moved
to a place called the Crawford Museum in way back
in night and I think that's still there. So, man,
I mean, here we are. We've got this, this this
long history that goes from what nint one six, nineteen
(30:02):
sixty sixty six and sixty seven I guess if you
want to count sixty seven because they updated the look.
But um man, a lot of these things are are
still operable and still around. Right now, does that give
us a grand total of eleven cars? You've been keeping
track here, right, because um let's see, I know, yep,
(30:24):
it's more than that nine. Uh what cars? Is that? Right? Well,
let's see if we if we're messing this out. But
of course now we get to the part where we
get to say, uh, some of our favorite and least
(30:45):
favorite things. One of our least favorite things to say
is that some of these cars have been destroyed. We
mentioned it earlier in the podcast, but as we do
a quick breakdown, Um, Scott, you had mentioned that of
the of the original the old school nine model. As
we know that two were destroyed and we know that
(31:07):
one is missing, missing in action. It's out there somewhere,
that's the thing, Like it's I doubt that it's been
cannibalized or you know that that people have taken pieces
off it so that you know it's it's scattered. I
think I personally believe that this thing is parked somewhere.
So now it doesn't have to be in Chicago, because
it disappears from the Chicago area. That has nothing that
(31:29):
there has no impact on this story at all. It
could be anywhere. I mean, obviously it's a car I
can drive somewhere, someone could buy it anywhere in the world. Really,
um unlikely that went somewhere else in the world because
there might be a shipping manifestore or something that would
show up on But you know, I I this is
one of those cars that I'd like to believe that
someone will find in a barn someday, just the body.
(31:51):
Maybe everything else will be decayed all around. But but
I'd like to see the thirty one car comeback me too,
because those are visually striking. Now, then we go to
an ninety six, We've got the six stabless steel vehicles there.
You know, we've got six that were built and four
I think are still are around. Yeah, let's see, I mean,
(32:11):
let's yeah, yeah, four of them are still around, that's right. Um.
There's the Detroit car, which is UM. Now it's at
a place called the Auto Aviation Museum in Cleveland, Ohio.
There was the Chicago car that's owned that was owned
by a physician. UM, part of a private collection. Because
once these cars were done with, you know, done with
their service at the company, they were sold to oftentimes
(32:33):
employees that then sold in somebody else. But you know,
sometimes he's ended up in other people's hands. Now, Um,
there's a two thousand eight update on that one specifically,
UM in that Let's see, where did that one end up? Hum? Now,
I did not go to a museum. It went to UM.
I think that one ended up in a you know,
(32:54):
at this guy named Ed James who showed up at
the swap me. This is the craziest thing. He's in Dearborn,
Michigan and so the home of Ford really Um, he
shows up um in two thousand and eight, I believe
it was. Now this is an update from the Hemmings
blog where I found the other article as well. Um,
he's got it on a trailer. He had just purchased
it like two weeks prior. But he's got one of
the nineteen thirty six Ford two door sedans. UM. And
(33:17):
the only one I can figured that it would be
would be the one that was owned by this physician.
Um that was part of his private collection, which he
passed away, left it to his son, and his son
sold it as part of the estate auction. And this
is where this Ed James guy picked it up. Now,
it hadn't been restored or anything like that. So, Um,
what Ed James did with that car after two thousand
(33:38):
and eight, I have no idea because the trail kind
of dies off right there. Um. Then there are two
there are two other cars that were owned by the
or they're still owned by the Allegheny Love Them Steel
Company or a t I I keep saying that. Um,
so they have two of them that that they housed
their warehouse or wherever. Um. And then of course there
are two cars that are missing again with no trace,
(33:59):
the ninet thirty six cars. They just disappeared all right
now before we get to nineteen sixty, UM, I do
want to tell you about something else. All right, Well,
you know we've been kind of doing these audiobooks, right, yes, yes,
from from audible dot Com. And I found one that
I think is really really cool. It's that's the title
of it is Engines of Change, History of the American
(34:22):
Dream in fifteen cars. And what this does it it's
it's really kind of and I'll tell you right now,
it's it's kind of a slow moving narrative. But don't
let that, you know, dismay you. It's that it takes
each of these cars that I'll mention here, and I'm
not gonna mention all fifteen, but it's like a biography
of the car and then a mention of what was
(34:43):
going on socially in America at the time and how
the car changed it and how it how it was
influenced by that. Um it's kind of this. It's this
really great um telling of the American story through each
car and and through the time period in which it existed.
I guess. And you know what, I have listened to
some excerpts of that on audible podcast dot com. No kidding, yeah,
(35:05):
because I was I was looking for a neat book
to recommend when we do when when we do our
spot here and I gotta tell you this one convert
to be. This is one that if I were not
already registered with Audible, I would register to hear more
of because I think it's a very, um fascinating perspective
(35:26):
to have on history. Now, Um, which which of the
cars have you seen listed there that you really want
to hear about? Well, I mean there's several of them.
I mean the the the sample alone was enough to
grab me. It was about the Model T. And it
goes so far as to tell you what the neighborhood
is like now in the in the in the region
of the factory where the original Model T was built,
(35:46):
and then it goes back to what it used to
look like, you know, and and then what was happening
at the time. And so it's really a fascinating listen,
I guess. But the Model T, there's the Volkswagen Beetle,
the corve Air, Mustang g t O even goes up
to like the Honda a chord of the BMW three series. Um,
of course the jeep vehicles. Um. And there's and there's
seven more in addition to that that they don't list.
(36:07):
But um, I'm really I'm kind of dying to listen
to what they've got, you know, what they have in
store for us, right And we have a lot of
listeners who are maybe on a road trip right now,
commuting to or from working home and thinking, Hey, man,
what am I gonna do after I'm out of Car
Stuff podcast or How Stuff Works podcast? Well, you can
(36:29):
check out audible podcast dot com slash car stuff and
if you register on there, then you'll be able to
get a free audio book download of your choice, anything
you want. It doesn't have to be engines of change,
although Scott and I are hooked on this one. Uh,
it could be one of any of their thousands of
titles about everything from automobiles to aunt eaters. Just one
(36:53):
more thing about this thing. It's just it's a unique
look at the American story, I guess in that um,
it's not only tells you about the automobile itself and
and how that all came about, but it's more about, like,
you know, how the automobiles like the lure of freedom
for a lot of people, and uh, and you know
about automobile manufacturing of course, but it was also about
(37:13):
like the birth of suburbia, and about um. I think
they even mentioned like the emancipation of women, and the
energy crisis and pollution and and just all these things,
all these surrounding factors they go into into the story
of what's happening when these cars are made. So it's
a it's a really good story and I think it
might be podcast inspiration for us in the future. What
(37:36):
do you think, I definitely think so, yeah, for sure.
So let's let's pick it back up again with with
nineteen sixty and where these cars are because we we
talked about the thirty one and thirty six models. Where
are the Thunderbirds now? I think a lot of people
once you see the photos, you'll be happy to know
that these Thunderbirds made it because both the two of
them that were built are both still owned by a
(37:57):
t I. UM, so they're still in secure hands. They're
they're safe. Yeah. One, um, let's see now, I think
one of those is at the Antique Auto Museum in Hershey, Pennsylvania.
UM one of the Thunderbirds and one of the nineteen
sixty seven Lincoln's as well. Okay, uh, this was oh no, wait,
(38:18):
you know what they've moved. They were on loan. Well,
you know, temporarily. This is a tough thing to track
down because they could be moving as we speak. You
don't know where they are, what part of part of
what display they're on right now. So we're gonna we're
just doing our best to try to tell you where
they are. But at least they're out there and they
exist if you can track them down, if you can
find them at a local museum at that you know,
I don't know the Peterson Museum or wherever you're gonna be. Um,
(38:41):
you know, the Atlanta Museum here had an automobiles art yes,
at the High Museum, yeah, exactly, and these things probably
would fit right in there. But all right, let's move
up to the nineteen sixties six models, the Lincoln Continental Convertibles.
Now the three builds. Once again, we have good news
because all three are still owned by A. T. I
and the hand. So um now after purchasing purchasing the
(39:04):
third car from Lincoln Mercury. Um, you know, so they've
they've got all three. Now. Remember they originally ordered two,
and they purchased the damaged one exactly in Lincoln Mercury exactly.
So now they have all three. So I just thought
that was an important note to make. Now. According to
the A t I side, if you look there, they
mentioned that nine and the eleven cars built are still
in use. Um, it seems like they've completely ignored the
(39:27):
three cars built in one, which is which is weird,
I think, because surely they have pictures and documentation. But
that's something that befuddled me too, because earlier in this
podcast I mentioned that eleven number. But we were talking
before we recorded, and we both pointed out that the
story does go further. Thir t I just doesn't have
it on their what well, they're okay, just to get
(39:49):
this all straight, there fourteen stainless steel cars that were
produced by Ford Motor Company or Lincoln Order Company for uh,
for the steel corporations and for you know themselves, for
their own promotional uses. And of those fourteen cars, and
now I'm trying to get this straight. Now, the three
let's see, I guess that they mentioned that nine of
them are still in use. Um, yeah, it will still
(40:13):
be the same nine of the fourteen cars, right, well,
we would say possibly ten. Nine of the fourteen are
known their location is like they're known to be. But
that third one, yeah, we now and there's also the
two missing cars from the nine group, and so there's
three of them that are out there. That's the thing.
There are three cars that are out there potentially as
(40:34):
Barn Barn finds for somebody. And you know that, I
know there are people that go out there and do this,
they go out and look for cars. I wonder if
anybody's actively searching for these stainless steel cars, because I mean, again, Ben,
these are these are something that you could really have
a good shot at finding. I mean, I mean far
greater chance and something that's just gonna decay and and
end up as a as a pile of rust in
(40:55):
a field. These are going to be the full thing,
I mean, much more durable, exact and Scott, I think
that's where we leave it today with our with our
story of the Alleghany Ludlam forward stainless steel cars. Now
we also we got pretty involved in this research and
we both came with a couple of things about other
(41:18):
steel stainless steel or bare metal cars like a lot
of hot rods. Right, yeah, exactly, But we might have
to save that and make that a story for another day.
I think I'll tell you what I think, um now,
Curtis got us started on the stainless steel cars. We
started to look into it and this bare metal car
thing came up. I want to do Bare Metal Cars
as its own podcast in the in the in the
(41:38):
near future, the real near future, because I think these
are really interesting as well. So Curtis, thank you. You
have inspired us to do not one, but two podcasts
on bare metal and stainless steel cars. We hope that
you guys enjoyed the show. We hope even more so
that you know where one of these missing three vehicles
is at um right to us let us know. You
(42:01):
can find us on Facebook. You can drop us a
line under a hundred and forty something characters at Twitter
and I had to talk really quickly. That's like the
micro machine voice for details. UM. But you know, if
people want to skip past that whole social media rigormurole, uh,
they can email us directly at car stuff at Discovery
dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics,
(42:27):
how stuff works dot com. Let us know what you think.
Send an email to podcast at how stuff works dot com.
CarStuff News
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Ben Bowlin
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