Spill Your Salary Secrets

Salary talk with coworkers is becoming the new "do" in digital workplaces. recruitHER founders Gina Helfrich and Ashley Doyle share their insights on savvy negotiation, the power of salary transparency and how women and tech companies can jointly hack the wage gap.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You. From housetop Works
dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking to two super
rad ladies, Gina Helfric and Ashley Doyle, who we met

(00:23):
face to face at south By Southwest Interactive and it
was kids mitt Oh my god, it was amazing. So
here's the backstory. Really briefly, Gina emailed us, and uh,
thank god she did. I'm so excited to talk to them,
and I was so excited to talk to them at
south By Southwest. But the thing is, when Kristen and

(00:44):
I were at south By, like, there's so much going on,
You're running to a million places. We hosted our own
live show and panel. There was just a lot of
stuff going on, and Gina was kind enough, conscientious enough
and efficient and type a enough to e mailed me
again to make sure that we got together and I'm
so happy she did. Yeah. And since we haven't even

(01:08):
mentioned what this, Gina Ashley Dynamic duo do um. They
have started a woman owned full service recruiting firm called
recruit Her, which is committed to connecting tech companies with
diverse talent, and in our conversation we're going to get
into all of the reasons why this service is very

(01:31):
necessary and important not only for company's bottom lines, but
also for the technology and services that trickled down to
end users like you and me. Yeah, And in talking
with them for this interview and when we met them
a little while back in person, it was so fascinating
and inspiring to hear they're sort of boots on the

(01:53):
ground perspective about diversity and tech, both diversity of gender
and diversity of ethnicity. They're really passionate about improving the
diversity of teams in tech because honestly, diverse teams outperform
those who just look like one group. And beyond the

(02:15):
inspiration of their mission, it's also just inspiring to hear
their own story of how they found each other and
what brought them to building this startup which has taken
off in a really short amount of time. And so
what we're going to talk about with Gina and Ashley

(02:36):
today includes, yes, why diversity is important and go beyond
the buzzwordy, almost tokenism aspects of diversity, right, but also too,
we're going to drill down into some really personal issues
when it comes to women and our jobs and our

(02:57):
paychecks and transitioning in to better jobs where we're treated better.
And also this issue of salary transparency, which is blowing
up right now among tech companies. Yeah, I mean, speaking
of buzzwordy pay transparency is a huge issue right now.
People in all sorts of industries are talking about it,

(03:19):
and for the most part, largely it is touted as
a positive step towards eliminating the gender wage gap, toward
making sure that people no matter their gender, race, background, whatever,
are paid equitably for the jobs that they're doing. And
it's also free advertising in a way. I mean, it's

(03:40):
not entirely free, because you have to pay probably some
people more in their day to day jobs, but it's
free advertising for recruiting and then also retaining solid talent um.
And you're now seeing more and more companies like Amazon
and Salesforce and most recently Facebook analyzing gender wage gaps

(04:03):
within the company and rectifying that. And so it's exciting
to know that this is something that um, these leading
tchech companies are taking really seriously. And this is a
conversation that is spreading because Caroline, I think it's really
time for us to stop feeling so secretive about our salaries. Yeah, exactly,

(04:27):
And and that is something that both Ashley and Gina
are passionate about, and it's something that the conversation is
only going to get louder as companies of all stripes
diversify more and more, as more people of different backgrounds
are brought into companies, salary discrepancies are going to be
an issue, and pay transparency is a huge way to

(04:51):
combat that. And it's also an important step in normalizing
this thing that we've been conditioned to consider impolite of
talking about what you make, finding out how much your
co workers make, and comparing notes a little bit, because
the fact of the matter is when it comes to
especially women, and even more so women of color, our

(05:13):
we will never know how much we aren't being paid
if we don't know how much people around us are making.
So should we talk now to Gina and Ashley? Yes,
let's do it. So, Gina and Ashley, before we get
into the nitty gritty about salary and money talk and

(05:35):
all that fun and sometimes not so fun stuff, can
you tell our audience a little bit about what both
of you do, and also how recruit Her came to
be and how it works. Yeah, this is Gina. I
co founded recruit Her with Ashley last August so UM

(05:56):
late summer. I had, prior to that UM worked in
a startup in the tech industry here in Austin, and
before that, I was directing the Women's Center at Harvard
so UM. I was looking for something new to do professionally,
as kind of in a career transition, and I felt like,

(06:20):
you know, what I really want to do is to
combine these passions of fine and to draw on my
background in gender and women's studies and diversity and inclusion
work UM from within Higher Ed and bring that expertise
to the tech industry, which is having a lot of
challenges and great opportunities around UM diversity and inclusion issues.

(06:43):
So I was looking at that mostly from a consulting perspective,
and I had lots and lots of people asked me
if I was also going to provide candidates for companies
that I would consult for, and I was like, well,
I don't know anything about that, so I should probably
find someone who does. And that was how I meant. Actually, Yeah,
it was really a great timing. I feel like I'm

(07:05):
really lucky that I saw Gina's post when I did, so, Um.
We're both based here in Austin. This is actually Doyle
by the way, so I'm obviously the other co founder
of recruiter Um. We're both based here in Austin. We
didn't know each other, but there's this really wonderful Facebook
group called Austin Digital Jobs. It has, like, you know,

(07:26):
close to twenty people in it now, and Gina was
one of those twenty thousand people who posted, Hey, I'd
like to talk to a recruiter about UM, like how
you consider getting more diverse applicants into the pool if
you have thirty minutes or something to talk with me?
And I was the only person who answer. So UM,

(07:47):
that's how we met and really uh hit it off
on that first call, although maybe we can talk later
about how awkward it was around the topic of salary negotiations. Yes, um,
fighting for your worth UM. In any case, my background
before launching recruit Her was primarily in technical recruitment UM

(08:11):
in larger corporations. So I've been working in tech for
about eight years doing technical recruiting and sourcing and have
also been an a drama manager for those same companies
and so, UM, really the bulk of my work has
always been focused around recruiting, retention, compensation, and benefits. And yeah,

(08:33):
I I we launched recruit Her in August of last
year and uh here we are now built this thing.
It's very exciting. Yeah. So what we can tell you
about what Recruiter does is where a diversity recruitment firm
or focused on the tech industry. What that means is
we provide a more diverse set of candidates to our

(08:57):
client companies for their open roles that they're typically going
to get if they work with a traditional recruiting agency. UM.
We also are committed to only working for client companies
who we believe are providing an inclusive environment for our candidates.
So we pre screen all of the companies that we
ultimately decide to recruit for to see what life is like.

(09:19):
Do they have a salary transparency at their company? UM,
and make sure it's a place that we feel comfortable
sending someone where they can grow and thrive UM and
make sure that they don't just have an experience where
they get spit right back out. So we're really hyper
conscious about the ecosystem of issues that are contributing to
the current lack of diversity in tech and trying to

(09:39):
make sure that we conduct our business in a way
that is long term going to continue to help fix
the problem. Well, I mean, that's an amazing effort and
an amazing goal. But what do you say to those
people out there who just claim that efforts like this
around diversity are just tokenism and we don't really need
to do this. We're just hiring the best people for

(10:00):
the job, whoever that is. Uh. Man, you know, we
would be super duper rich at this point if we
got a dollar every time someone said that legitimate to
us on the phone. So I hear it, right, Like
I get the eyebrow raise. Uh And the skepticism, especially

(10:21):
this year, which it's like pro con right, finally, finally,
uh wage inequity diversity in tech, or the lack thereof
is a part of the national conversation, and that's something
that we are super excited about because it's not a
new problem, certainly. Um, it's just finally one that like

(10:43):
you know, you can talk to someone at Starbucks about
because people now know this is a thing that happens
and that lots of people are working to try to
figure out how to address UM. The con to that is, like,
sometimes you get the eye roll right, Like great diversity
taught me something I don't know, Like I just hire
the best person for the job. I don't care what
you look like. I just want to see your resume. Unfortunately,

(11:06):
that sort of sentiment doesn't work in the actual real world. UM.
And we know because of you know, years and years
and years of research and practical experience, that we're not
able to look at a resume or sit in an
interview room with a candidate and make completely unbiased judgments

(11:28):
about that person. That's just not the way our brains work.
So UM real believe there are tons and tons of
strategies that you can employ as an employer, as a
person who's interviewing another person for your company. UM, even
if you are just the first person reviewing resumes for UM,
you know, new applicants rolling in, there are lots of

(11:50):
ways that you can sort of mitigate that bias that
naturally exists for all of us as humans and make
sure that you're hiring processes are set up to really
truly hire the best person for the job. And frankly,
if you only rely on the same, like hiring practices
you've always used forever, and you have a homogeneous team already,
you cannot expect that the applicant pool you're driving in

(12:13):
without trying is going to change. Like if your existing
team as homogeneous and you rely on employee referrals to
get new candidates coming in and you don't ever like
actively engage with communities outside of the ones you're part of,
you're pretty much always going to be hiring the same
people and thinking that those are the best people for
the job because you haven't looked beyond your You know,

(12:34):
you're the limited bubble, which is sometimes a really nice bubble,
But there's a lot of talent outside of that, outside
of that realm. So one thing I've also been noticing
in terms of diversity issues within tech is a we've
started talking beyond just gender gaps but also looking at
um ethnicity to which I think is a really great

(12:56):
step forward. But on the flip side of that too,
I think that we are or I don't know, maybe
I'm just in like my own Twitter bubble, but we're
seeing not only identification of the problem, but also why
diversity is a solution. In text, I was wondering if
you could just kind of quickly talk about why this
is a benefit for the bottom line. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, Well,

(13:20):
there are lots and lots of research out there making
effectively the business case for diversity. Um. But there's a
couple of examples that we talked about a lot. So. UM.
If you'll remember when Apple rolled out one of their
more recent iOS updates that included the Apple Health app. Um,
that app was native on your phone. If you had

(13:43):
an Apple phone, you had the app, and you could
use this to track your sleep, um, how much you
weigh your sodium intake, any medicines that you might have.
You could track pretty much any little detail that you
could dream up having to do with your body and biology.
But you couldn't track your period, which is something that

(14:06):
women you would know like, oh great a health app,
like I would love to use this. What's the most
fundamental thing I might want to track here? Right? And
it was not even a capabilities So having a diverse
team developing your products in tech is really important simply
for connecting with your customer base. Right. That's fifty of

(14:26):
their customer base that they just completely let down through
that feature. Um. So since then they have made the
update you can now track your period and Apple Health um.
And there's lots of other apps that also came out
to help women you know, keep track of their fertility
as well. So it's a huge market. UM. I think

(14:46):
the notion that there are heterogeneous customers and markets out
there that you can't tap unless you have a team
that reflects those experiences and perspectives is really strong, right
relates to the bottom line. Um. There's a new company
out there right now called Bevil that is just crushing it. Um.

(15:07):
They have basically like shaving products for curly haired men
that don't tear up their face when they're actually shaving
because it's designed for that particular hair type, and they're
in target now. They're making so much money, and it's
just because nobody actually decided to pay attention to the
particular needs of this market before. So really, you know, diversity,

(15:31):
having a diverse team, I think plenty of us out
there just think it's the right thing to do. Right.
Really uncomfortable with a very homogeneous looking tech industry, given
how tech is increasingly, you know, creeping into every aspect
of our lives, and soon every industry will be the
tech industry. Um. Also it's relevant for where people want

(15:53):
to work. Diverse teams tend to have longer retention of employees,
people are happier working on diverse team is really and
then the bottom line, right, like, when you have teams
that reflect your customer base, you're better able to connect
with their needs. You're better able to build products that
can really serve many many people's once in needs. So

(16:16):
so once we have that diversity piece in place, then
there's the question of, you know, salary equity. Because there
was recently research that came out and I don't remember
the exact source, but it found that in traditionally male
dominated fields, like say a tech company, when women come

(16:39):
into those jobs and uh it transitions from being male
dominated to more female dominated, the overall income drops, the
overall you know, compensation drops. So yeah, this was a
New York Times article. Yeah, so let's talk about that,
and how how do you you know, kind of like

(17:00):
that bridge like get people in the door, but also
maintain pay equity. We will say, obviously, for us, we
think salite transparency is a critical way to make sure
that doesn't happen, right, because that way, no matter what
the circumstances are around the demographic makeup of your team,

(17:21):
how large your team is, how your team changes over time.
If you have committed to having more transparency around the
way you compensate your employees and how that compensation changes
over time, you can make sure that that doesn't happen. Right. Um,
there's this resistance for sure, I think from employers to

(17:42):
dig into this stuff. Well, we know, for example that
Google and Apple used to have this kind of secret
you know, non compete or they wouldn't poach one another's employees,
and partly that was to keep costs down right, So,
in a sense, there can be an antagonistic relationship between
companies and their employees because companies know the premium, particularly

(18:05):
on tech talent, which is our field, and so if
those employees learn their actual worth, companies are gonna have
to pay more. Well, I guess how does that apply?
Do you think in a more general sense beyond just
Google not wanting to have an adversarial relationship, how do
you think that applies more to the gender aspect, especially

(18:25):
when it comes to whether it's like official policy in
the company or just unofficial etiquette about not speaking about
your salary. Sure, I think some of this plays into
the idea that, uh, you know, when are supposed to
be polite, right, we're taught early on that you don't
you don't want to enter into conversations that are going

(18:47):
to make other people uncomfortable. You know, there's the whole like,
don't talk about religion or politics at the dinner table.
Salary is part of that, right, it's sort of ingrained
in us that this is not something that you should
be talking about with your peers or with your co workers.
And frankly, you see lots of examples of companies going
so far as to say you cannot talk about it.

(19:09):
Um whether or not that's legal, it's a whole different
ball game. Frankly, in most cases that's not something they
can enforce, and it's certainly not something that they're supposed
to tell you. But if you pull a thousand people
about what their onboarding experience was like in a new job,
a good portion of those will tell you that hr
you know, reinforce with them at some point not to

(19:31):
share details about their offer or not to talk about
salary with their peers. Definitely, that is the overwhelming sentiment,
right when you talk to people about conversation. It's not
something that like we're sharing over the over a coffee together,
or that we're like hanging out at the park with
our kids and talking about how much we made last week.

(19:52):
It's just not a conversation that's comfortable for a lot
of people, and unfortunately for underrepresented groups UM women included,
we really suffer more because we don't have access to
that data and because we are not comfortable talking about
it as a as a whole. Um. Part of why

(20:13):
I do this workout recruiter, and frankly, part of why
my initial meeting with Gina was really awkward is that
this happened to me. And you know, I'm someone who
who comes from an HR and recruiting background. You would
think of all women, uh, you know, doing this kind
of work, that I would have better access to the information,

(20:34):
that I would know a lot about my market worth,
and that I would never find myself in a situation
where I was vastly underpaid. But that's totally what happened
to me, and it was such a such a strange experience,
and it made me so angry that it really pushed
me to start talking about this more with my peers,
with women I knew with my family um and I

(20:55):
found that over time, no matter how many times I
have this kind of station with other women, that the
overwhelming responses the same people are just really resistant to
talk about salary. They feel like they're going to be
punished if they do, they feel like it's rude, the
conversations uncomfortable, and so we sort of avoid it. And
I think that's a big part of why often we

(21:18):
go for five or ten or twenty years vastly underpaid,
because there's not a single centralized location to just see
the comp of your peers right in most cases, unless
you're working for the government or a really awesome company
that has salary transparency, and more and more of those
are doing that. Um Buffer is a great example. You
can go to the Buffer website right now and look

(21:41):
at their salary calculator and plug in what kind of
job you want to do and where you live, and
they can give you an estimate on what you would
make their All of their employees salaries are publicly available.
Um At Recruiter remade that commitment that when we started
to hire employees that we would be transparent about our
salary and about their salaries. And that's part of the deal.

(22:02):
If you join us, you have to be comfortable with
other people knowing how much you make. UM, so part
of you know, diversity and tech being uh, you know,
a national conversation is great because within this movement you've
also seen this really great leadership by moment of color
and tech who've pushed toward greater salary transparency. Probably the

(22:23):
most common or the most well known example is from
a couple of years ago when Erica Baker, who was
at Google uh you know, started pushing on this, realized
there wasn't a lot of information about the salaries of
her peers, and started a spreadsheet that was being passed around.
People were anonymously entering their compensation. Google got wind of this.

(22:47):
Obviously they were very pissed, UM, and ultimately she left
people is now at slack right UM and UH, which
is a company we really love and I feel like
it's doing a lot of great work around UM some
of these issues. But in any case, uh, it was
a very public punishment, right, Like, you got to kind
of watch that play out. But thankfully she was brave

(23:11):
enough to start that conversation and start sharing that document
because it really helped reinforce uh, this conversation around salary
gaps why certain people were paid more or less than
their peers. It pushed other people to start similar salary trains. Um,
my little lady. One that's been passed around for a

(23:32):
couple of months is specifically around HR and recruiting data.
I've been trying so hard to get more anonymous information
on the way recruiters and HR managers are paid and
people opts professionals, because again, you would think that someone
embedded in this work, like you know, creating compensation and plans,

(23:55):
having access to salary information about all the employees and
a company, would know more about their own But even
you know, within our very insular part of tech, um,
there's still that, uh, that idea that you shouldn't be
talking about this stuff, right like that somehow this is
bad that you're asking, or you should just be happy
you have a job, or just trust us that we're

(24:17):
going to treat you fairly. We've seen frankly that that
does not work. It's not a great method to protect yourself.
And you know, it's really sort of a sad irony
that women in particular end up sharing information about their
salary with the people that it's least helpful to share
it with, which is going to be a recruiter or

(24:38):
a hiring manager prior to receiving a job offer. So
that actually, because of the gender wage gap, ends up
harming women because it sets in the mind of the
potential employer a ballpark for what they're going to pay you.
But if you've been historically underpaid, then you're not going
to be receiving a salary that you're actually worth because

(25:00):
you've revealed what that past pay history was before saying well,
what do you think that I'm worth doing this job?
So it's so frustrating and sad to me because we really,
you know, deserve it and owe to one another to
share what our salaries are and to advocate with one
another around these issues. But instead we seem to only

(25:21):
be saying it to the people who actually don't have
our best interest in mind. I was just gonna say
to you know, often HR managers, corporate recruiters, most big
companies will already have policies in place around how much
you know, based on percentage of a person's current salary
they can boost for this new offer. Right, So again,

(25:43):
if you share this information about your current comp with
a company that you'd really like to work for, and
you've been historically underpaid, whether you know it or you
don't know it, you're already setting yourself up to stay
underpaid if their rule is that they only do you
know a ten and reached from your current camp for
this offer. And I see all the time corporate HR

(26:06):
corporate recruiting professionals, you know, coming back to candidates with
this answer like, Hey, you know, we're not trying to
treat you unfairly, but these are the rules. I would
just strongly reject that. It's one of the things that
we teach candidates and coach candidates on often, like how
to have these conversations without being seen as difficult or

(26:29):
you know, like you're hiding information. But really, this is
a place where you have so much power in the process.
Um giving up those numbers just really sets you back again.
Even if you don't know if you're underpaid or how
undervalued you might be. If you have an inkling, you
just pass that power right across the table as soon
as you tell them what you're making right now. They

(26:51):
do not need that information in order to make you
a competitive offer. So you're suggesting that the power that
you're referring to is your current compensation and that you
should not disclose that to a potential employee. Employers, Yes,
I would say absolutely not. If you can, in any
capacity avoid giving that information over, you will be in

(27:14):
a much better position to negotiate, and frankly, it's probably
the easiest way to keep yourself from continuing to be
underpaid if you are already you know, part of that
wage gap. I mean, if you look at Ashley's experience,
within one job move, she more than doubled her salary.

(27:35):
So if she had revealed how much that she was
making prior, it would be a much harder pill for
that new employer to swallow that they were going to
more than double her prior salary, right man, But I
mean speaking of hard pills to swallow, you know we
you've already mentioned how it's almost culturally ingrained in women
to be polite, be that model employee, not rock the boat,

(27:58):
not make waves. I mean, in my palm started sweating
when you were like, don't give up that information, because
I know what it feels like to be sitting in
front of that online job application and seeing that cursor
blinking in the little field where you're supposed to enter
your current salary? And so what advice do you you know,
I don't want to steal your your trade secrets that

(28:19):
you guys do recruiter, but but what is some maybe
advice or perspective that you can offer our listeners when
it comes to circumventing not only that, but other potentially
damaging aspects of the job interview or job application process.
I think it all comes down to how you frame
the conversation right, like how you go into these often

(28:42):
very uncomfortable for us conversations around camp. UM we can
talk about like literally, how do you move the cursor
past the what's your current camp blank? If it forces
you to enter a number. But first, I would say
the best thing that you can do for yourself if
you are starting to interview, is to make sure that
you are prepared before you ever get on the phone
with a recruiter UM with information about what market rates

(29:06):
look like for the position you're interviewing for UM. Do
as much research as you can around current camp for
your peers, for what folks make another industries if you're
transitioning from one to another. UM We're really lucky that
the Internet exists UM. Fifty years ago this would be
very difficult to do UM. But again, thanks to people

(29:28):
like Erica Baker UM and many who have come after
her sort of doing the same push, there are lots
of resources floating around where we're all sharing this information
right and trying to get more visibility not just for
ourselves but for our industries as a whole around like
what market rate really looks like. There's also quite a
few services that have popped up in the last couple

(29:49):
of years. Comparatively is UM. I think the newest one
they just got something like six million dollars and BC
funding UM and they're essentially building out this huge database
not onlike a glass door UM to look specifically at compensation,
what if the full package might look like for someone

(30:09):
if they're going into interview, they're asking for anonymous feedback
on this stuff so that their sample sizes will grow.
UM pay scale is another one. Again, you can look
at companies who have already publicly shared salary information to
get a feel for what people are making near you
also having conversations with recruiters about compensation in general. A

(30:32):
lot of times even if you're not super interested in
the particular role, you should take those intro calls when
they want to talk to you about them and just
get competitive intelligence on you know, what companies are looking for,
what the salary ranges for a particular role. Being armed
with that stuff before you go into the conversation with
a recruiter about a position you really want, I'm going

(30:52):
to help you so much to be able to give,
you know, data based, totally logical, like numbers oriented reasons
why you want to be paid a specific amount of
money or within a specific range for this work that
you're going to be providing to them. Um, it's so
much easier to go and armed with that. There is

(31:15):
great information available about what works, particularly for women, in
terms of how to approach a negotiation, especially as salary negotiation,
in a way that's going to help avoid or minimize
backlash for negotiating in the first place. Right, as a society,
we are just much more comfortable with men advocating on

(31:37):
their own half than we are with women doing the same.
Women are excellent negotiators. They can do a wonderful job
as long as they're advocating for someone else most of
the time, Right, and partly this is because you know,
seriotypically we view women as collaborative and caretaking, and so
it makes sense for us when we think about a
woman trying to advocate for someone else, negotiating someone else's behalf,

(32:00):
but when it's negotiating on her own behalf, then that's
kind of off putting to us. So, um, there's a
researcher out of Harvard, her name is Hannah Riley Bowls,
who's done a lot of great work on this. She
talks about taking a relational approach to the conversation. So,
just like Ashley was saying, come in very prepared. Know
your numbers. Make sure you know you know what the

(32:22):
salary range is for the job in the specific area.
If you're trying to negotiate a salary in San Francisco,
those numbers are gonna look really different than they would
if you're trying to get a job in Austin for
the same type of role. Um and talk in terms
of we right already position yourselves as though you're on
the same side of the table with a person that

(32:44):
you're negotiating with, so you can essentially say you know,
I you know, can't wait to come on and provide
this particular set of skills and capabilities for your team.
You know, we're gonna do really well together. I you know,
I expect to basically put myself, you know, hard to
work for your company, and at this rate, which I

(33:05):
understand to be, you know, the going rate, I'm going
to be really happy coming on and we're going to
get started on the right foot, et cetera. I wish
you had been in the room with me, both of
you and I had my first job offer because I
didn't negotiate, and I know I'm still paying for it,
and uh, it's hard not to kick myself anytime I
think about it. I'm right there with you. I spent

(33:29):
so many years killing it. Frankly, like I'm not shy,
I'm really good at my job, but I was killing it.
And I was the lowest paid person doing that particular
type of work and for a company that I loved,
which is a wonderful, wonderful company with lots of great
people in it um and I just I didn't know.

(33:49):
I wasn't armed with that information, so I had no idea.
And then once I found out, you know, it's just
like it guts you it's really difficult to continue to
kill it knowing that you're being compensated at a rate
you know less than half of your peers, who may
or may not be killing it themselves. So actually has
told me this story a number of times, and I

(34:10):
think it's great to highlight that one of her male
coworkers came to her to share with her the fact
that she was grossly underpaid. So this is such a
great area for ally ship, right, Like when we talk
about the importance of sharing with one another, it's not
just women sharing with other women, but frankly, our male
coworkers and friends can talk to us about what they

(34:31):
are making and that makes a huge difference. Well do
you think that so called radical transparency of wages, of benefits,
of skills, the skills that you bring to the table,
will that help disrupt any toxic office culture? Will it
help in the gender wage gap as so many people
are hoping. I think it certainly has the potential to.

(34:55):
I mean, look at Sales Force, right, Um, they're an
excellent example all Someone at some point the last couple
of years came to them and said, hey, we think
you have some issues with salary on your team. And
you know their topic Sex said, no, absolutely not. We
we're a wonderful company. We care to believe for our employees.

(35:17):
We're doing all this great work for them. We have
all these great people who stay like there's no way.
And then they looked at the numbers anyway, and were
horrified that, yes, in fact, there was huge disparity when
they looked across their salary ranges and their existing employees
camp and then they, you know, put three and a
half million dollars into fixing it. And then they publicly

(35:37):
talked about how, you know, how frustrating that process was
to believe so strongly that you were doing the right thing,
and then of course you were taking care of your folks,
and then when you dig into the numbers to find that,
you know, in many cases they weren't. Um Now they're
a great example because a they looked at the numbers,
be they did something about it. And see, I think

(36:00):
most importantly they talked about it, right, because that's that's
part of the deal. If we don't talk about this stuff,
if we can't get more transparency around the data that
will allow us to make better decisions, it's never going
to go away. And look It's the same thing with
the diversity and tech deal. If Tracy had never started
collecting data around how many people worked in tech, how

(36:23):
many women were on the team at pinterest, UM, there
would never have been that like light bulb moment right about,
oh God, this is worse than we thought. And then
that pushed other companies to share, and it's continuing to
push the conversation. UM. So yes, I think absolutely having
more salary transparency and there being a pressure for more
companies to dig into this stuff has the capacity to

(36:46):
really truly change the experience of people working in tech
and other industries. We know that stuff. Mom never told
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your first order. So, in the spirit of transparency, I'm

(38:23):
going to share a little bit of a related issue
that I have personally with this and I've never known
what to do about it. Um So, like I said,
I never negotiated when I came onto my my first
professional job, and I feel like I have been having
to make up for that. But the last time I

(38:44):
had to negotiate for my salary, I walked in knowing
for a fact that I was paid less than my
male coworkers doing arguably identical work. And when I brought
that up to the HR manager who I was negotiating with,

(39:07):
and said, listen, I know that I need an extra
bump because you've got to even this out. And she said,
I don't know how you know that information, but it
is not applicable to this conversation, and became very hostile
in her tone towards me, as if knowing me knowing
that and bringing it up with something that I shouldn't have.

(39:30):
And I know I'm still not being paid equally. I
know I make less. For a fact, I know I
make less than my mail co workers who are at
the exact same level, who have the exact same title.
So what is someone in my position who's not at
a salesforce, who doesn't have like a company initiative for
sales for salary transparency? What do all of the women

(39:53):
listening to this in my position do? Christian? That is heartbringing.
I'm so sorry here you're dealing with AT and UM,
it's so frustrating. And I know that plenty of other
people have been in your same position. UM. I think
it helps to just sort of help. It helps to

(40:13):
remind and teach people that while there are amazing folks
who work in HR and who want to help the
people on their team and advocate for them as much
as possible. There are also just at the end of
the day, things that they cannot help you with or
their hands are tied because ultimately h R works for

(40:35):
the company, right like HR yes often is wonderful and
wants to help you, but at the end of the day,
their role is to protect the business. So there is
there are going to be situations, um like this really
unfortunate one that you find yourself in where you go
to the person who you've been told is supposed to

(40:56):
help you in this situation and they're kind of telling you, I,
I don't want to be hearing this, you know, like
this isn't something that we want to address well. And
the funny thing was, at the end of the whole process,
because we did go back and forth on some things,
she she emailed me with like the final terms and
all of that and noted, you know, you are a

(41:17):
tough negotiator, and I, oh, wow, I just didn't know
what what to think about it, And honestly, I've kind
of just put it in the back of my head
ever since, because you know, what does someone in this
position do? Now? Do you walk into your boss's office

(41:38):
and say hey, I want I want to know you
know how much more you owe me, like because you
know that's not probably not going to work. Yeah, and
this is so tricky, I think to like really speaks
to how difficult these problems are once they surface, like
deciding how you're going to move forward. And again I

(41:59):
had very similar experience to you. I was working for
a company I loved, and then you know, I pulled
aside to find out that I was not just underpaid,
but like really really really underpaid, like more than half
um and then to have to decide how to move forward.
I think in my case, um, I recognized my privilege

(42:19):
and that I could take some time start interviewing at
other places. Like now that I was armed with this
information on my real market worth, right, I get start
digging in with other people and get that validated. I
could do more research. And you know, everyone knows that
when you change jobs, when you're able to negotiate for

(42:43):
a new salary at a new company, usually that's your
best bet to get the most money. You're generally going
to get way more money when you're negotiating for an
offer at a new company. Then you will be able
to internally at your at your company. And some of
that is based on what we talked about before, Like,
a lot of corp rations will already have rules in
place around what percentage of your current comp they can

(43:05):
increase UM in some cases. Unfortunately, also there are compensation buckets,
so like, let's say your manager has five direct reports,
they may only have X amount of dollars to divvy
up between those five direct reports and a given quarter
or a given year. And so even if you're doing
phenomenally and your thirty dollars underpaid, your manager may feel

(43:28):
obligated to still split that bucket in a way that
is not fair to you, but they believe it's fair
to those five people. Right, So, um, there are all
these intricacies that you have to take into consideration when
you look at what possibly could happen if you push
back again, Right, if you go back um past the

(43:50):
HR conversation that was already so scary and terrible to
have UM and really demand that you're paid market rate
and like escalate this issue because you could totally be
punished even though you shouldn't be. And the law says
that your employer cannot punish you for you know that

(44:10):
there cannot be retaliation, that you can't lose your job
because you push back about salary. We all know that
that's not realistic in many cases, right UM. And frankly,
not everyone can afford to go against the man UM,
file an e o C complaint or get an employment
attorney to file a lawsuit for you about your wrongful

(44:33):
termination um, and then wait, however many months or years
it takes to get some sort of resolution on that, right.
Some people don't have the luxury to sit out for
that many months or years UM. And so it really
comes down to like what your risk tolerances, UM, What

(44:55):
what is best for you right now? UM? When you
look at your budget, when you look at the amount
of time you have to maybe be out of the
job of this thing goes self um, And it sucks.
It's totally not fair to you, UM that you even
have to consider these factors. But you know, the truth
for many women, many people in general in this country,

(45:15):
is that they live paycheck to paycheck, or they have
family members that they care for who are dependent on
their income, and if they have conversations or do things
that might jeopardize the stability of that income. Um, there's
some really real consequences they have to consider. We don't
all have a luxury of being able to storm in
and say like, this is super terrible, what you're doing

(45:37):
is not right. I've already asked, you know, in the
way that I you know, I've already asked politely if
that's what and frankly, you're still screwing me over, Like
that's the conversation we want to have. But many of
us are just not in a position to be able
to do that, and so unfortunately a lot of these cases,
getting that information that you're now armed with, building it

(46:01):
up right, supporting it with even more documentation and information
about your market worth, and starting to research employers who
have more inclusive practices, and you are gonna be a
better fit for you over time and really value you
and support you and pay you what you're worth. That
might be your happy ending. But I know that that's

(46:22):
not the simple answer for everyone. Yeah, I mean, the
you know, sort of time tested way that many people
approach this problem is they just go out and get
another offer, right, and then bring it to their current
employer and say, hey, I have this really appealing offer.
This over the company can you match it? Uh? And,
like we talked about before, for women who negotiate, we

(46:45):
always have to keep in mind that there is this
backlash about women negotiating on their own behalf. So if
you take this approach and you do go out and
interview elsewhere and get a really great competitive offer, but
you like your job and you would rather stay than
when you go present that to your current boss, you
have to present it in a way that's basically like, look,

(47:08):
I was contacted by this other company. I felt like
I owed it to myself to just you know, have
the conversation with them. They have made me this very
competitive offer, but I love being here. This is where
I want to stay. You know. I love the contribution
and making on this team. I don't want to have
to go there. But given you know, the market rates,

(47:29):
this is a very difficult offer for me to turn down.
Is there any way that you could need it so
that I could stick around here and you know, continue
making contributions here. This is where I want to be
if you can just match the salary offer, So that
might be another way to kind of get around it.
If like, hey, just pay us fairly isn't really getting

(47:49):
you where you want to be. Do you think getting
dinged for have it? And of course getting dinged is
like massively understanding the issue, But do you mean getting
dinged for having those negotiation conversations, like having the kind
of conversation that Kristen did. Uh? Do you think the
penalties are higher if you're a woman of color? Can

(48:11):
you imagine if if I'm a black woman going in there,
like I walk right into that angry black woman's stereotypes?
So absolutely right, you have to deal with many more
of those challenges when you have multiple aspects of your
identity that are marginalized. So I do think it's really

(48:32):
fascinating how a lot of this so called radical transparency
is taking off in Silicon Valley and with digital companies
that at the same time have so many public issues
with gender and diversity. So why do you think that
this is really where a lot of this conversation is

(48:54):
stemming from? Like why the tech industry? I think the
tech industry really prides itself on being innovative and forward thinking,
so there are much more comfortable with and likely to
try new things, And I think that's one of the

(49:16):
aspects that makes working on this problem within this industry
so exciting and gives me the hopeful things because there's
a lot to be depressed and frustrated about every day. UM.
But you know, you look at Etsy or Netflix or
any of these large and more successful tech companies coming
out and announcing fantastic benefits. For example, Netflix will give

(49:38):
you out to a year of paid leave for parent
parents right of any gender. UM. That's fantastic in a
country that is alone with Popua New Guinea and not
offering paid maternity leave, that's huge, right. So those kind
of UM offerings where the tech industry is trying to
push the edge, which is something that basic like everyone

(50:01):
prides themselves on UM is really great for us. And
at the same time, within particular companies, you know, it
really sort depends on the culture and what the real
message and commitment is from the top. Some of those
companies are just kind of trying to check the box off, right,
Like this isn't a problem they really want to spend
a lot of time on, but they feel the pressure

(50:22):
that they need to address it, so they'll say, oh, yeah,
you know, let's implement the Rooney rule and make sure
that we at least interview the minority for every open role,
UM check that box. You know, we'll do some of
these initiatives, but there's not a core commitment to the
addressing the problem, whereas at other companies and in tech

(50:43):
in particular, you know, our clients are really proud of UM,
have a deep commitment to these issues and are trying
to do comprehensive reforms and initiatives to make sure that
they are creating a truly equitable and inclusive place for work.
And in both cases, the policies are great, but the
overall outcome is going to be different depending on the

(51:05):
specific company. So to circle back to the parental leave issue.
For example, if it's all great and wonderful if you
have you know, unlimited vacation or up to your parental leave,
but what's the kind of unspoken messaging, right, Like, is
there a common knowledge at the company that if you're
a dad and you take your full ten weeks of

(51:27):
paid leaves, so that's career suicide even though it's on
the books, that's the policy, right, So it definitely always
has kind of a drill down like what's really going
on in the particular company where you are, regardless of
what the written policy might be. And I really like that,
you know, for all the flak that the millennials get,

(51:49):
you know, we're doing some really great stuff. I mean,
I feel like we are leading the charge in terms
of revolutionizing the workplace culture, and this is one example
of it. Sadly, it is a story that we hear
over and over and over and over and over again.
So it's personal and it's terrifying for you to talk
about it. But it's really powerful that you're doing that

(52:10):
because it allows other people to realize they're not the
only ones having that experience and that it is not normal. Well,
and part of why I don't usually talk about it
is because it's also embarrassing. Total Yeah, yeah, hey man,
I feel like, again, I, of all people, I should
have known. How did I live like that many years underpaid?

(52:30):
When I'm supposed to be the expert at that in
my field? Uh, it is embarrassing. It sucks. It's like
financial literacy. I should have known all that stuff. But
sometimes it takes someone pulling you aside and you know,
giving me the tip be where you figure it all out.
And I think that's a big aspect of this conversation
that's going on because Kristen, you say it's embarrassing, but
it's almost a trap. I see General Akbar in my

(52:52):
head yelling it's a trap because on the one hand,
we are supposed to be responsible for negotiating in a
way that nabs us the most money. But on the
other hand, we're not empowered in a lot of ways
to either know what the industry standard is or to
even think to research what the industry standard is. And

(53:14):
then certainly with if you're dealing with a hostile HR
person or a hostile manager, you're certainly not empowered to
be able to ask for more money or even ask
about what coworkers are being paid on average, and so like, yes, well,
I totally agree that it is embarrassing to realize like, oh,

(53:34):
I've contributed to being underpaid. It's such a trap. Well,
and hostility, as said, it's all of the unconscious biases
that you as a woman, a woman of color, like
whatever your layers of identity are, um as you two
were talking about at the beginning of our conversation, where
it's impossible for us to have a completely objective negotiation process.

(53:59):
And I do realize, of course that it's admiral akbar,
my apologies here, gonna get some mad Star Wars, you know, Um,
I was just gonna say yeah, and you know on
these topics, I mean, I will say I have a
lot of mixed feelings about the Sheryl Sandberg leen in

(54:22):
ethos um And definitely it is empowering for women to
go out and get this information and learn specific strategies
for how to negotiate on their own. Behalf. Reading that
book Why Women Don't Act or Women Don't Ask is
really great. Um, you know, like it's a really good book.

(54:43):
It's very informative. It helped me in my personal negotiations.
And then at the same time in our work, Ashley
and I are constantly trying to also come at it
from the company angle and encouraging companies to not contribute
to a situation where con cently individual employees are basically
just out there trying to battle it on their own

(55:05):
for getting paid what they're worth. This is why we
advocate having this salary transparency as a company policy. Um.
You know, we can help one another as employees by
starting these conversations and talking to each other about what
we make and you know, giving each other hand up
to a greater path to wealth and to being paid

(55:25):
what we're worth. So I, on the one hand, yes,
you know, like there's so much that you can do
on your own as an individual, UM, learn more about
ways to approach these issues. And on the other hand,
it's going to take a big group effort. It's going
to take us supporting one another. It's going to take
companies involving their culture and practices to be more equitable

(55:47):
and fair. Well, I think that's the perfect note to
end on. Gina and Ashuley, thank you so much for
talking to us. Also, even before that, Gina, thank you
for messaging Caroline and me before south By Southwest listeners.
That's all how this went down, UM, And can you

(56:08):
let our listeners know how they can find out more
about you and what recruit her is all about and
what you all are doing. Sure, you can visit our
website at recruit her dot io and that has all
the information about how you can connect with us. We
have an email newsletter you can sign up for if
you're looking for a job or you just want to
know what's out there. You can register and give us

(56:30):
your resume and we'll see if we have something that
matches you with one of the tech companies. That's our clients.
We also offer career coaching through our amazing executive and
career coach area hunter um and the variety of options
the packages available for that, so look us up online.
You can also find us on Twitter and Facebook and
LinkedIn what's your Twitter handle? Well, there's recruit her for

(56:53):
the business Twitter and then I am Gina help Rick,
no spaces just all one word UM and Ashley Ashley Underscore,
Doyle d y a L. Well. Thank you so much
to Gina Healthfrik and Ashley Doyle, the founders of recruit

(57:14):
Her for talking to Caroline and me not only on
the podcast but also at south By Southwest. It has
been so great to build this relationship in such a
quick time, UM, with these women who have so many
insights on these issues. I feel like Caroline, we hear
a lot about in terms of women you need to
negotiate more and know you're worth But they're really offering

(57:39):
these sharper tools for actually making those kinds of things happen. Yeah,
maybe we should start our own Google doc for all
Sminty listeners and you can just go in and put
your job title like your salary and your hourly wage,
and we can all look and see what other what
do other feminist podcasters make? What? What do other writers

(58:03):
and waitresses and actresses make? Well? And we'd also have
to make sure that we get some dudes to PLoP
their salaries in there so that we can really compare
and see how much we're really making or not. UM.
But I'm sure that listeners have so many thoughts about
our conversation with Gina and Ashley. UM. So first, if

(58:25):
you want to learn more about them, you can head
over to their website again, it's recruit her dot io. UM.
And you can also listeners send us your letters about
all of this. Have you encountered any of these issues
in your workplace? Have you ever done the thing of
asking your coworkers how much they make? How did you

(58:45):
do that? How did your boss respond? Yes, I'm asking
for tips. Mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot com is
our email address. You can also tweet us at mom
stuff podcasts or messages on Facebook, and we've got a
couple of messages to share with you right now. Okay,
I have a letter here from Christine's Salinger, and I

(59:08):
would not normally read off a listener's full name in
the listener mail segment, but we actually mentioned and cited
Christine in our episode on disability and sexuality. So here's
what Christine had to say. A friend recently told me
that you quoted me in a podcast. I wanted to
go back and check it out. Thanks for doing that.

(59:28):
It's really great and you managed to cover a lot
in that quick hour. A couple of things I wanted
to hit on. Number one, the word suffered. You described
me as someone who suffered a spinal cord injury, and
this is a word I generally try to avoid. Instead,
I used the phrase I sustained my spinal cord injury.
The reason for this is that suffering carries a lot

(59:50):
of negative connotations, the image of a person who you
should pity, and it's really just not true for me.
As with many other people with disabilities, as you sort
of hit on in your podcast, disability is still seen
as being bad or lesser. So there's an assumption that
having a disability makes you suffer, but for many of
us that isn't true. We each live with our disabilities.

(01:00:12):
They are a part of us, in a part of
our normal. Number two actors near the end of your podcast,
you talk about seeing more people with disabilities in media,
and now that's great. I find it to be such
a shame that they are most often portrayed by people
who don't actually have that disability. It may be understandable
when talking about a movie or TV show where the

(01:00:32):
character is depicted both with and without their disabilities, such
as the Theory of Everything, but I don't believe it's
right or okay for films like Avatar or television shows
likely to use actors that don't have that disability. Just
as we don't see actors in black face anymore, we
shouldn't be seeing actors pretending to have disabilities. I'd also
love to see disability in media normalized, so that we

(01:00:54):
see even extras as people with disabilities and not always
a central character who's fighting against their disability in some way. Anyway,
thanks again so much. I really believe that the more
people know, the more accepting society will become. And thank
you so much, Christine. We appreciate your letting. And I've
gotta let her hear from Meredith about the same podcast episode,

(01:01:15):
and she writes, I was so excited to see a
podcast addressing sexuality and disability. As being an occupational therapist,
this is something I addressed frequently with my patients. However,
I was disappointed that there wasn't a single mention of
occupational therapy and the services they offer to help people
learn and manage your sexuality after an injury. We were

(01:01:35):
instead clustered in a therapy services that do not address this.
In rehab, occupational therapy is a frequently misunderstood part of
the treatment team. We address daily functions and occupations like
activities of daily living of people of any age, ability
and diagnosis, and this can be getting dressed, driving, money management,
and even sex. I've attached to link below to our

(01:01:57):
national organization addressing the role of occup facitional therapy in
sexuality and just thought you should know so listeners. That
addresses over at a O t A dot org if
you want to learn more about occupational therapy and Meredith,
thank you so much for shining a light on that
important work that you do and now, listeners, we want

(01:02:19):
to hear from you as always. Mom Stuff at how
stuffworks dot com is our email address and for links
to all of our social media as well as all
of our blogs, videos and podcasts with our sources so
you can learn more about salary transparency and recruit her.
Head on over to stuff Mom Never told You dot com.

(01:02:41):
For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit
how stuff works dot com