Period Tracker Apps

There are more than 40,000 period apps, some of which claim to help you get pregnant or prevent pregnancy. Cristen and Caroline explore the apps' effectiveness and dig into one developer's claim that infertility is just an "information problem."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how stupp
works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline, and we are getting technological about
our mentreal cycles today. That's right. We're bringing our periods
into the twenty first century. That's right. I guess they

(00:26):
were already there because we're in it right, But now
they can be on our phones and we can share
our periods with each other. It's like a math. So
I posted about period in fertility tracking apps on the
stuff Mom Never Told You Facebook page a while back
because The New York Times published this article proclaiming that

(00:51):
period tracking apps are changing girl culture interesting. So getting
more people to talk about them, yes, like de stigma
to using them making periods fun finally right? Yeah? Um,
And I asked stuff I've Never told you fans whether

(01:11):
they use these apps and what their favorites are, and
overwhelmingly y'all said, heck, yes, we absolutely use them. And
the user favorite appears to be Clue, which I've also
noticed in a number of other period tracker app reviews
that Clue stands out from the rest. So you get

(01:32):
your period in the library, Yes, with the Candlestick yes,
and and Tim Careisha is up and everybody's like, what's
going on? Well, no, miss Scarlett is Scarlett right? Or
since it's the stuff I've never told you, that would
be mss Scarlett. Um And for people not aware of

(01:53):
these period tracker apps, which um in in use includes myself.
I don't use a period track app hashtag I U
D S Yeah, but I wanted to pull up Clue
to just start this episode off walking through what this involves,
what this menstrual technology user experiences like, I give us

(02:16):
the UX rundown, it's the menstrual UX. So I've downloaded
Clue and the first thing I'm noticing is their logo
looks like a like a biohazard symbol, kind of yaod
bio hazard fear, Like if a cloud and a bio
hazard got together. Yeah, used the period tracking app to
have a baby, it would be this, That's what they're

(02:38):
symbol would be. So we love the symbol. Next up,
it's asking me whether I want to track my cycle,
log my data or connect to someone else's cycle. And
this connecting is a new feature for Clue where you
and your girlfriends can finally actually sink perious. Yes, because

(02:59):
side no, that doesn't really happen, it's just happenstance. Yeah,
but so I love. That's why I love hence my
rockets laughter off the mic. So I selected for it
to track my period and Clue is saying, Hi, we
need to get to know you. So I'm saying, okay,
do you know about how long your period lasts? No? Okay,

(03:22):
Clue will use the global average of four days for now,
do you experience p MS? Uh? Ask my husband. I'm
just kidding. Okay, So this is gonna be a very
long process if I walk through all of them. But
it's going to ask me about my birthday, my height,
my weight, oh, sets up period reminders. We've got birth
control in here. Uh, there's a health app. So it

(03:46):
really is wanting to know all of my stats. And
this is pretty cool because Caroline, how often when you
go to the doctor and I ask you when your
last period was? Do you ever know? I? Yeah, I
never knew. But the thing is with having an iu
D is you don't really have a period. And so
that's what I just say. I just shrug and I

(04:07):
say I I D Yeah, Well, and we should say
we have you and I both have because we're D twins.
The Marina, which is the hormonal iu D, which tends
to lighten your period, whereas people with the copper non
hormonal i u D tend to have heavier periods. So
we went for the lighter option. Yeah, I had been

(04:29):
on Skyla. I just the other day was tweeting from
the guy know about getting my marina, So you know,
there was an experience. It is an experience. But the
whole thing, you know, reading about these period tracking apps,
the thing that I find appealing about them, and I've
never used one, and I don't really foresee myself using one,
is that it seems like a really great way to

(04:50):
be in touch with your health, not just your period.
I mean, yes, um, it's a way to figure out
how long and how heavy and how that corresponds with
your health and all stuff. But it seems like a
really well, these these apps in generals seem like a
nice tool as part of your holistic approach to your
own health of of tracking how you feel and trying

(05:12):
to see where that intersects with actual health issues going on. Well,
especially considering how there are so many health conditions that
happened to biologically female bodies like endometriosis, fibroids, polycystic ovarian
syndrome where women tend to have to go to multiple
doctors to figure out what's going on. And I'm curious

(05:37):
for people who use these apps whether it has been
a helpful tool for things beyond your menstrual cycle, just
kind of seeing providing a gauge of what your baseline is. Um,
So I definitely see how these are really handy, and
I also get the argument that they are part of

(06:00):
sting up menstrel taboos. Yeah. I mean if you wear
a fitbit, you know, and you're tracking your calories uh
in that are coming in and out, then you know
period trackers the next step right, Well, and you would
have thought that when Apple launched its health app in
and allowed users to track more than a hundred data

(06:24):
points across like all of our health and well being
excluding period. Yeah do you think what do you think? Now?
I haven't read too much into that, like literally read
much about it, but um do you think that was
more a case of like, we don't have enough women
in tech, so there was no one in the room
to be like guys half the population periods? Or do

(06:44):
you think it was a case of they actively ignored
minstrel cycles. I think it was pure oversight because this
came up in our conversation with Gina Helfric and Ashley
Doyle a while back, who ran this firm recruit Her
that folk uses on legitimately authentically diversifying tech companies because

(07:06):
this is the stuff that happens when you don't. But
even though Apple initially overlooked it, they have since added
that capability into the health app. But it kind of
didn't matter considering how there are forty thousand other fertility
and period tracking apps now available. Is that literal? Yeah?

(07:28):
Oh my god, how do you pick? I don't know. Well,
I would go with whatever stuff Mom never told you.
Listeners you so, I would trust our people. I would
go with Clue. We're not being paid to promote Clue.
But I'm just saying that's the one that listeners like
the most. But here's the thing, aside from the basic

(07:50):
utility of these apps and this technology, once we dig
into the industry and how period tracking has evolved from
this pen and paper thing that women in especially second
wave feminists were into doing and really didn't need any

(08:10):
technology for to today's period tracking landscape that has in
many ways monetized our menstrual cycles. We start to see
a lot of stuff happening in here that have nothing
to do with our health and well being. Well, yeah,
they claimed to have a lot to do with it
and to help you be an advocate for your own

(08:31):
health and well being. But are they really just trying
to collect all of our data so that they can
monetize it or sell us more things. Yeah, exactly. So
let's give a quick little rundown of pen and paper
period tracking. This is before all of these twenty first
century period apps. Um, back when you've got the fabulous

(08:54):
vin diagram of second wave feminists and Catholics and where
they overlap. It's it's period tracking, Yeah, it's it's the
fertility awareness method, which feminists referred to as charting and
see kids, before we had our smartphones. To track your
period or or to chart, you would need a slide

(09:15):
rule and an advocates, an avocus, a telescope, and a
quill pen. Uh. Actually it was much simpler, um you
would you would essentially just have to be okay with
getting up close and personal with your body in the
same way that you have to when you use menstrul cups.

(09:35):
So all that's involved in fertility tracking or charting is
tracking your bleeding, of course, your vaginal secretions, your period flow,
your sex drive, energy, breast tenderness, general physical health, all
of the things that we are now in putting into
period tracking apps. And the fertility awareness method would which

(10:00):
is more colloquially known as the rhythm method. It's really
all about taking your basil body temp every morning and
watching when it rises, because it spikes just a little
bit whenever you ovulate. And you also have to pay
attention to what's happened in your panties. Yeah, you have
to track your cervical fluid. And the description of this

(10:23):
it really makes a lot of people squeamish because it
talks about like the different consistencies and um, the one
point where I was like what, because I've never done
this before, nor have I even thought about doing it,
was like at one point in the month, you've got
to like see if between your fingers, like how long
like the string of mucus holds together, like at what

(10:46):
point it snaps? And I was like, I just like
kind of went off in my mind for a bit
because I literally had never even considered doing that. Well,
and what I had no idea about in terms of
why and the more mucus the cervical a fluid means
you're ovulating. Oh yeah, is because throughout the month, the

(11:07):
structure of your cervical fluid actually changes, which is why
it changes consistencies in order to better trap sperm. Oh
my god, I know. There was a description at one
point that was like, yeah, when it's at its thickest,
it's it's shaped like a lot of little tubes to
have the sperm just shoot shoot to the egg like

(11:29):
they're on some sort of express train to parenthood. I
had no idea all of that was going on in
my dirty underwear. I know. It gives new perspective to
that joke at the beginning of Jenny Slate's Obvious Child.
You're just reading my mind. Listeners, if you haven't seen
Obvious Child, by the way, do yourself a favor. But

(11:49):
it's not just the basil, body temperature and cervical fluid
you have to watch out for with the fertility Awareness method.
You also have to pay attention to your service shape,
which when I first read that, I thought only my
doctor knows how to do that. But in fact, all
you need to do to monitor your cervix shape is

(12:11):
your middle finger. Give a middle finger to your cervix.
No fancy instruments are required. I mean you can have
a clarinet, oh, yes, if you wish. But with the
other hand you need you need to insert a finger
into the vaginal canal. I love what a multitasker. You are,

(12:32):
just playing your clarinet checking your cervix. I always wanted
to play the clarinet, and now you can with charting.
But all you do is insert They suggest your middle
fingers since it was the longest into your vagina, and
feel for the texture of your cervix, and usually the

(12:53):
softer it is, the closer you are to ovulation. So
I can totally see why second waivers in particular, we're
all about this because it is about as body embracing
as you can get. Yeah, it can't be squeamish. You
are literally in touch with your body. Yeah. And this

(13:13):
goes back to well before women's lib fertility tracking actually
came Stateside in the nineteen thirties, after we had gotten
some detailed German and Japanese studies on menstrual cycle lengths,
which means that, yeah, it wasn't until the nineteen thirties
that we even knew how menstrual cycles worked across the calendar. Well, yeah,

(13:37):
because before that people just assume that we would go
out and how at the moon once a month and
then we would just get our periods. Right. If only
it were that simple, I know, so you can at
least plan a vacation. And I am curious to go
back and read more about its appeal in the nineteen
thirties because I wonder if it was also the economy
of having a more potentially reliable form of birth control,

(14:00):
which would be super important during the Great Depression exactly. Yeah.
And about thirty years later in the nineteen sixties, Um,
I mean the Boston Women's Health Collective and the book,
and really the culture around the book Our Bodies Ourselves
was all about this charting stuff. I mean, it was
a way to empower women because clearly, since we didn't

(14:22):
know about clarissas, we didn't know about periods very much. Um,
clearly women had a need to be more in touch
with their bodies and this gave them that empowerment. Yeah. Well,
and around this time too, you still have laws prohibiting
unmarried women from purchasing birth control right, and of course

(14:44):
birth control is obviously kind of a sticking point for Catholics.
And in nineteen sixty eight you actually see Pope Paul
the Six green lighting this natural family planning, this charting,
this fertility awareness method because you're not, you know, using
an outside force to prevent conceptions, so to speak, but

(15:07):
you are naturally just what you're timing your sex. Yeah, yeah,
so that you can have the procreative sex that you
want or the recreational sex that you want. It's not
like you're getting rid of the goalie. You're just only
going to play soccer on the days when the goalie

(15:29):
isn't there or is there. I don't know. It depends
on if you want to get pregnant or not. I
think that might have been one of the first sports
metaphors we've ever dropped on this podcast. Yeah, that's why
I fumbled, and we're even mixing sports. But welcome to
My Brain. And for listeners interested in learning a lot
more details about the method and reliability of the so

(15:54):
called rhythm method, we have a whole podcast episode devoted
to that. So We're not going to get into the
nitty gritty here. You can go back and listen to
does the rhythm method work and get all the info
you need. But we did want to quickly mention that
the rhythm method that went viral in two thousand seven

(16:15):
after this German study was published finding a point six
percent pregnancy rate for women who practiced perfect fertility awareness tracking.
And that perfect is the key word. I mean, same
with using the pill, for instance, that your percentages of
not getting pregnant depend on perfect use versus you know,

(16:37):
normal human person use. So all of us to say
that women and people who men straight across the spectrum
have been tracking their own periods and fertility for almost
a century now, yeah, And I mean this whole technological
bent around periods was called way back in the day.

(17:00):
And I'd say, what way back in the day? And
I mean, but in biochemist and oral contraceptive co creator
Carl Gerossie published this article in Science magazine that basically
predicted the end of what he had helped create synthetic

(17:21):
birth control hormones, because he was arguing women one of
these days would be able to track their blood hormone
levels and thus their fertility with a simple cheek swab.
You you take a swab of the cheek, you see
how the hormones are doing. You go out and you
howl at the moon, and you know you're getting your period.

(17:43):
And I'm so curious to know what Dr Gerassi would
think about this period and fertility fertility tracking industry today
because we obviously aren't to the cheek swab stage, partly
because it's not really in pharmaceutical companies best interests, right,

(18:06):
But it's interesting because we're clearly at the cheek swab
stage for other massive things in our lives, like you know,
twenty three in me or the ancestry dot com DNA
testing stuff where I mean there was an article about
a girl who literally found her biological father through doing
um one of those like twenty three in me cheek swabs.

(18:28):
So like we're there, it's just a matter of exactly, um,
is the pharmaceutical industry going to continue to play goalie
to refer to an earlier sports metaphor. I appreciate you
bringing that full circle, which is not a sport, but
it's like hoping. Yeah, so we're gonna take a quick

(18:49):
break and when we come back. We're going to talk
about why Silicon Valley investors want to get in that goal,
so to speak, alongside those parmaceutical companies, and whether these
period tracking apps are really just monetizing our menzies. So

(19:20):
when you first start reading all of these trend pieces
and think pieces about period tracker apps, menstrual cycle apps,
pregnancy apps, I mean, it sounds pretty cool, you know.
It does sound like a great way for women and
their partners to actively be able to be in touch

(19:42):
with their health, whether the goal is to get pregnant
or to stay not pregnant. Um And And you know,
when I'm first reading all of these articles that Kristen
and I were swapping, I was thinking, yeah, like this
is this is really cool, this is great, Like it's
it is a fitbit, you know, for your ovaries or whatever.
But the more you read, the more you read these pieces,

(20:04):
and the more you pay attention to who is being interviewed,
who is doing the speaking, who's doing the innovating, the fundraising,
the fund giving, you start to realize, oh, this is
a tale as old as time. You know, Kristen and
I have done so many episodes you know, teaching for example,
the history of of the gendering of teaching or librarians,

(20:27):
where a field was pretty feminine or female dominated until
men figured out a way to professionalize and monetize it.
And I don't mean to to, you know, take a
dump on these these tech bros who are creating these
apps for women and their partners to use, but it

(20:50):
is something to keep in mind as you discuss the
technology around women's bodies well. And also to something to
keep in mind is that the one in big standout
UM from the all of the guys who are getting
involved with these period tracking apps is Clue, which was
developed by um, a German software developer named to Ten.

(21:15):
And what I also paid attention to you as we
were reading was how the guys framed these products versus
how Ten framed these products, because you do see a
bit of a difference understandably because Ten gets a period
presumably maybe she has now you do too, I don't know, Um,

(21:37):
So there were just some very unexpected gendered patterns and
how these are promoted, and also some red flags about
what this is really monetizing, what the real motivation is,
because it's no surprise that venture capitalist would toss some
money at this technology, because who does not like the

(22:02):
buzzy ring of a fitbit for your period? Okay, show
it to me. And also by women around the world
will drop more than twenty three billion dollars on contraceptives
and Americans already spend five billion dollars annually un assisted
reproductive technology. And that's coming from study from Transparency Market Research,

(22:27):
which was cited in a terrific long read all about
period tracking technology in The Guardian by Moira Weigel. Yeah,
it was a great overview of all of this, and
I mean, yeah, those numbers are staggering and and the
whole thing about assisted reproductive technology is something that comes
up over and over again with a lot of these

(22:48):
uh guys and gals in the text scene saying, look,
this is an information problem. That was one guy's quote
that if only we knew more about how women's cycles
functioned and where their cycles intersected with other health issues,
maybe we wouldn't have to spend so much time and

(23:09):
money getting fertility treatments. Maybe we could learn about underlying problems.
And I'm going to come back to that information problem
quote because it stopped me in my tracks. Oh yeah,
when we were reading for this um, but that was
a set in two thousand thirteen. But we have to
go back a year to two thousand twelve, when really

(23:32):
all of this started happening. These period tracker apps really
started to grab attention, not only in the app store
but also in tech media. So in kindera really seems
to be the first big fertility and period tracking app
on the market, and it was concepted by a guy

(23:55):
named Will Sachs and his girlfriend termed wife Katie Bicknell,
who had been previously using the Fertility Awareness method instead
of birth control medications in two thousand nine. So they
start dating and he's like, maybe should go on birth
control and she's like, maybe you should get a vasectomy

(24:15):
because I'm not into all of this hormonal stuff. I
don't mind checking my own cervical fluid and basil body temperature.
So they realized that maybe this is something that technology
could disrupt. But you know where where as they were
coming at it from the angle of we don't want

(24:35):
to get pregnant right now, we want to use this
natural way to prevent pregnancy. Once they launched their app,
they realize that a majority of people who were flocking
to it, we're using it to get pregnant, to to
better nail down those times of the month when they
were most fertile. Which that's even better if you're going

(24:57):
to pitch this to a group of investors. Is because
your potential market just exponentially increase, probably not exponentially. There
is a limit, I'm sure to the number of uterus
is that you can assist, but the market is much
bigger when you fold that into it. So what happens

(25:18):
with Sacks and Bicknell is they move out to Boulder,
where Sacks attracts the tech Stars founder Brad Feld and
Felled and Sacks really start to develop this idea. This
is where the whole fitbit for your period tagline comes in.
And as they're developing the story, Sacks and his girlfriend

(25:40):
turned wife Katie Bicknell start pitching it so that they
can drum up some venture capital. And this is where
things really start to get interesting because Katie Bitnell, in particular,
not Will Sacks, encountered some difficulties talking about periods and

(26:01):
fertility tracking two rooms usually full of very rich men
who were kind of squipt out. Yeah, I mean she
She told The Guardian that these investors were quote freaked
out when she was there in front of them talking
about blood and mucus. She even she even impersonated one

(26:25):
of the guys by doing a bro grunt as his
reaction to what she was talking about. But the thing is,
she said, yeah, I mean, you know, you've got the
stereotype of the of the squipt out, older rich dude
who doesn't want to hear about periods and mucus. But
she said, you know, the older female investors were even
more uncomfortable than their male counterparts. Yeah, she said, when

(26:47):
women were in the room, they tended to quote just
tune out. So I mean some fascinating dynamics happening in
that room that we could also do a whole podcast
on UM. But at right out of the gate, there's
a taboo that these apps are potentially busting. And also
this resistance, at least anecdotally to a woman selling a

(27:12):
product for a woman's mentional cycle and fertility. And I
say that because in two thousand thirteen, Bicknell ended up
leaving Kendera completely in order to save her marriage to
Will Sacks because it was just creating too much conflict.
So she leaves Sacks, takes over and they find a

(27:35):
woman to replace Bicknell. While all of this is happening,
a guy named Max Levchin, who co founded PayPal, also
starts thinking this a whole fertility tracking thing could be
a real gold mine, so he launches this buzzy glow

(27:56):
app that raised wait for it, twenty three million dollars
in venture capital in two years. Now. Obviously, the someone
who founded PayPal is gonna walk into venture capital investment
room with more cash at than Katie Bicknell or Will

(28:18):
Sacks who were just starting out. Oh yeah, I mean,
I used PayPal just last night, so I use it
all the time. It's terrific. But it made me instantly
wonder whether this is also a reflection of the difference
of a guy talking to other guys about this product
that can make the money that also happens to deal

(28:42):
with women's periods, versus a woman standing there talking about
blood and mucus to a group of men and women
who are like, oh my god, this is the last
thing I want to see. This is a boys club
and a woman is in here talking about a menstrual
app and just putting us even more into a pink box.
I'm kind of projecting but this is just everything that

(29:02):
was going through my head as I was reading this,
and all Max was the one who when they announced
the Glow app at the All Things deconference, described for
infertility as an information problem. Yeah, that's a really sensitive
way to approach infertility for the millions of people who

(29:23):
are affected by it. I mean, it makes total sense
to frame it that way to the crowd sitting at
an in group tech conference. But that's when I was like, oh,
wait a minute, whoa, they are monetizing our wounds. I mean, granted,

(29:44):
glow is free, but Glow is making money from the
data that we are putting into it. Well sure, And
I mean, whoever you are, whatever, you're trying to make
money on, one of your basic baseline strategies is how
do I attract people who are not currently you know,
fill in the blank using this thing, reporting this thing,

(30:07):
who's not reached by this market already. And so if
you're a tech guy and it's like who what is
not what has not been technified yet? What can we disrupt?
Let's disrupt infertility? Yeah, I mean that really seems to
be what the big pitch is. And I mean we're
not saying that everybody's motives here are bad, or or

(30:29):
that we we disagree with the idea of making money
off of this idea. But the thing is, like, I
think there is a different approach when you're when you're
looking at it as here a bunch of humans we
need to help, versus like we can make ba jillions
of dollars, right. And it's also reminiscent to me of
conversations we've had about empower tizing and using female empowerment

(30:53):
and feminist e vibes and outright slogans to sell products.
It feel similar to suggesting that infertility can be solved
simply by logging your data into an app. It just
seems highly reductive and offering a mighty big promise to

(31:15):
people and couples who are dealing with very intense and
sometimes emotionally grueling and sometimes physically exhausting issue. Yeah. And
then of course there is the question I mean you
mentioned data. I mean there is the question of like,
how aware if if you are someone struggling with infertility
and you're looking at this app as the solution to

(31:37):
your problem or a potential solution, um, are you aware
of the fact that they're data mining you? Are you
immune to it because you've been on Facebook for so
long and you just assume nothing's private anymore. I mean,
there is the very great potential that having this population
of of people on these apps will benefit science and

(32:01):
that perhaps it will pull back the curtain on intersections
of health issues and fertility. Um, but kind of in
the meantime things look a little a little shady, absolutely,
because I mean, we need to address precisely how these
are being monetized because a lot of times these apps

(32:22):
are free, so wonderful, So so why would we have
a problem with someone providing a free resource for us? Well,
because nothing's really free. There's no such thing as a
free lunch in Silicon Valley, I'm assuming unless you're at Google, right,
don't they have like really nice lunches. So yeah, But
there's this profit model split between Candera and Globe that's

(32:43):
really interesting. Where Candera is focused on making money by
building product, so they have something called Wink, which is
a basil body temperature sensor that you can buy that
will help you more closely monitor your fertility. Whereas Glow
made money by setting up a partnership with Walgrains, where

(33:05):
it's like, Hey, we're gonna direct our users toward you,
and you can direct your you know, pharmaceutical customers towards us,
a little bit of quid pro quo. Not to mention
that people's data is worth everything these days. I mean,

(33:27):
an email list alone can get you a check from
a VC firm. Not to mention all of the different
types of data. I mean, when I was slipping through
clue at the top of the podcast, they were asking
me for my height and my weight and my birthday
and everything. You know, and if someone knows my height,

(33:48):
they know everything. Caroline. But Glow in particular stood out
from Candera when it was launched because it asked about
your sex life, about out sex positions, about all sorts
of preferences and lifestyle factors that might in some way

(34:08):
tangentially relate to your fertility um. And it also jumped
out to me that Kendera's Will Sacks said, quote, right
now people have relationships with doctors. In the future, it
will be with a brand. So if that's not like
monetizing our bodies, I don't really know what is. Yeah.
I that that quote also brought me to a screeching

(34:31):
halt because I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no
no no wait wait wait, that's not the direction we
want to go. I mean, as often as Kristen and
I preach like talking to your doctor being an advocate
for your health. Um, you know, we talk about how
long it takes for women to find a diagnosis for
things like endometrius is, and how important it is to

(34:52):
be an advocate and be aware of your own health.
For this guy to be saying that, you know, doctors
so so much about the doctor as it is about
the brand, Like you figure out your own health at
home with all of these apps and gadgets, and then
you know a doctor can just write a prescription. Yeah.
I mean it's sort of a new form of privatizing

(35:12):
personal health. Or it's like, I know, I don't need
to go to the doctor. I have my Wink basil
body temperature sensor, and you know, Wink knows so much
about me, they have so much data. Then they can
take that data and tell me whether I should be
you know, tested for a thyroid disorder as well, or

(35:32):
something else that could be possibly going on. Right, which
is why I cannot wait to hear from medical professionals
about this topic in general, but specifically about the sort
of unspoken or in this case like explicitly stated idea
of taking medicine out of the hands of doctors and
and putting it in your hands as the consumer as

(35:54):
a product. Well and assuming that data is as effective
as a doctor. Right. But at least from what we read,
that's not really a sentiment that you hear so much
from the Berlin developer at to ten who in launched Clue,
the Clue app, which intentionally, you know, marketed itself as

(36:16):
not a pink quashed app, you know, really something that
is practical for women who just want to, like you said,
be an advocate for their own health. And it was
super successful. By the end of alone, it attracted two
point five million users in one hundred eighty countries um.
And because of the popularity of Clue and these other apps.

(36:40):
This leads us to that New York Times piece that
kicked off our conversation about weather. These period and fertility
tracking apps are changing our girl culture. Yeah, I mean
the New York Times think so. Writing about this, they
said that these apps have helped shift attitudes. Uh, they've

(37:04):
assigned cute icons to once unmentionables like heavy flow, maxi
pads and period pimples. Um. They've helped women get in
touch with not only when the period is do, but
why it's late and why she might be feeling blue.
Which I mean, yeah, that's that's good, that's positive, that's
absolutely great. Get in touch with your bodies. UM. But

(37:28):
I will side eye at assigning cute icons to once
unmentionables being a culture shift because that sounds like the
same kind of thing as maxipad commercials. Having to use
the blue liquid right, or you know, running through a
field with balloons is like feeling liberated. Not to say

(37:50):
that we need like a realistic rendering of bloody tampon
as our iconography. UM, but I think it's more about
our conversations around it than emojis. UM. And the thing is,
there are a lot of women who use these that
do derive a sense of empowerment from it. UM. The

(38:13):
New York Times interviewed developer in San Francisco who doesn't
work on these period apps. She has just been using
them for a long time, and she said something that
jumped out to both Caroline and me. Quote, when you
see a technology that someone has developed specifically for you
as a woman, it really legitimizes talking about your periods

(38:35):
and thinking about them. And then she goes on to say, how, um,
if we as a society encourage women to check on
their periods, then we're giving permission to talk about it.
And I agree, And I also ask who is giving
a set permission? Who is making this technology legitimizing our periods?

(38:59):
Because they based on everything that we've seen so far,
i'd atend include aside, it's a lot of men. Yeah,
and and my question is what are you waiting for
or what were you waiting for? Why did you view
your period is not legitimate before, like not a legitimate
health concern or or aspect of your life? Well, and

(39:22):
does it take technology created by men to legitimize a
biologically female process? I mean, it's interesting though, when you
pull way back and look at this as an element
of our history in terms of it took a man
to quote unquote discover the clitteress. It took a man

(39:46):
or groups of men to quote unquote like discover the
period and menstrual process. So this seems to me to
be another element of that of women being like, oh,
thank you men for allow in us to have hashtag
period pride right, And I'm so glad you mentioned period
pride because to me, the whole suggestion of period tracking

(40:10):
apps changing girl culture being the catalyst for that change
is mistaking correlation for causation, because if you go back
and listen to as I suggest you do, dear listeners,
are episode all about period pride and how women today
are posting photos of blood stained sheets on Instagram as

(40:34):
a form of protest live tweeting their periods. Especially to
Mike Pitts, uh Newsweek publishing cover stories on tampon access
and the de stigmatizing of periods that has nothing to
do with period tracker apps. To meet. Period tracker apps

(40:56):
in our excitement around them are part of I think
the is uh cultural shift that women initiated this crimson wave,
you know, helped along by things like Hello Flows, viral
commercial featuring girls saying things like vagina and menstruation and

(41:17):
ps that company was founded by a woman. So I
I just think that we don't need to lose sight
of all of the things that we've done offline to
push menstruation into the mainstream. And I'm glad that we
have the technology there to assist us in learning even

(41:40):
more about it and getting even more comfortable with it. Yeah,
but I mean, speaking of technology, there was a horrifying
article horrifying and enlightening. I think my brain almost started
to combine those words from consumer reports that found that
there was this massive security loophole in the Glow interface.
UM and Glow I mean immediately took ups to fix it.

(42:01):
They sent out a new version of the app that
you could download. UM. But it goes back to, like,
you know, all of these things are meant to not
only make money for their developers, but also you know,
to put people in touch with their bodies, to help
couples get or not get pregnant or whatever, UM, to

(42:22):
help trans men understand when their periods are coming so
they can be better prepared. UM. But you can't ignore
issues of security flaws, especially when UM with some of
these apps, it's almost too easy for like an ex partner,
for instance, to view your data right UM, and especially

(42:45):
if that data involves things like the sex that you're
having and other lifestyle factors where you are. UM, that
could turn very problematic very quickly. Because you know, one
attractive feature of a lot of these apps, Light, Glow
and Clue is that you can sync up so to

(43:06):
speak with Yeah, your friend if you want to do that.
But especially for people who are trying to get pregnant
or couples who are trying to not get pregnant, you
can sort of track fertility throughout the month together, which
is great. I also like that they are inviting partners
into this process as well, because especially if we're talking

(43:29):
about dude partners. Yes, you do need to be more
familiar with the menstrual process and be more comfortable, um
with all of that. But if you're gonna use these apps,
you need to read the privacy agreements because fertility apps
and other like health apps like the fitbit are not

(43:49):
covered under hippah, so apps have a lot more liberty
to use and of course monetize your healthcare and lifestyle data. Right. Yeah,
So you can't get a PayPal co founder going to
your hospital and saying, hey, for every woman who walks
in these doors, could I get her her data on
her heightweight, period stuff, pregnancy stuff whatever. They'd be like,

(44:13):
who get out securiting? But he can just pull all
of that stuff into a little data basket from the
app and and use it however he chooses and that
data is especially attractive, um if it's coming from people
who are trying to get pregnant, because that is catinet

(44:36):
for advertisers, because people who are trying to get pregnant
are about to buy a lot of stuff. So it's
concerning to me also that right now the FDAs policy
for all of this is just exercising quote unquote discretion
on pursuing privacy violations. But it's like, if this is

(44:57):
the future, if this is the future of health, if
brands are replacing our doctors, like Will Sachs thinks they
will Hippa needs to hop on board fast hippity hop,
hip hippity hop over there, hip hop. And in the meantime,
for people who are using these apps right now, especially

(45:21):
to get pregnant, there's a question of are they really effective?
I mean, is Max love Chin correct and saying that
infertility is simply an information product because Glow now touts
one hundred fifty thousand pregnancies resulting from using their app rigorously.

(45:44):
But that again goes back to the correlation versus causation thing.
You know, are these pregnancy as a result of people
taking taking their health in both hands and shaking it
by the shoulders and saying we look get pregnant health,
I will I will find you um or is that
just are the two things just correlated? Right? Because Wired

(46:08):
Magazine actually went back and unpacked the study that came
to that one number and found that the data only
control for age. So you have a lot of other
factors that contribute to this, well, a lot of other factors,

(46:29):
but also the idea of like, maybe the number of
pregnancies is so high because the people who already want
to get pregnant are getting these apps and using them right,
and they're probably doing everything in the book that you
can possibly do to promote pregnancy. In the words of

(46:51):
one into chronologists that Wired talk to, really what might
be going on is Glow is measuring our motivation to
conceive rather than actually helping you to conceive. So I'm
really curious to hear from people on that because this
is an issue where you've got the users who are

(47:12):
interacting with these apps every day, multiple times a day,
and you know, kind of having these apps become a
part of their life. But then you also have tech
developers influencing things, and then you also have the medical
side of it. So I'm hoping that we'll hear from
people from all of these perspectives. Um, but before we go,

(47:39):
we do want to emphasize that if you aren't trying
to get pregnant, if you're trying to not get pregnant,
I should say this is not a replacement for birth
control and contraception. Yeah, nor is it a replacement for
U safe sex practices as well. Exactly. There was even
a study published in the Journal of the America and

(48:00):
Board a Family Medicine which analyzed a whole bunch of
these apps and found that all but a couple of
them follow what they cite as evidence based fertility awareness
methods and relying solely on an app to prevent pregnancy
quote may not be sufficient. So basically, like this is helpful,

(48:23):
like use them, but don't stop what you're already doing
to prevent pregnancy. So for me, like this aroused way
more skepticism than I thought it would. Um. I thought
that we were going to, you know, just have this fun,
breezy conversation about oh, this new technology. Oh clue, that

(48:46):
sounds fun. There's so many layers, Well, there are so
many layers, and it's also just scary to me that
there are about forty thousand of these apps out there.
I'd feel much better if like the A M A
came along and was like, here is a sanctioned fertility app,
or are sanctioned birth control app? Um, But instead you

(49:07):
have all of these little like people's you know, side
project apps popping up in the app store, many of which,
as you just said, aren't even necessarily using that evidence
based fertility awareness method. And there are also some that
don't even have any privacy policy agreements. So buyer beware

(49:29):
or download or beware because they're usually free. Because, for example,
in a Financial Times investigation found uh the super popular
period tracker light app just straight up with sharing data
with third parties. So um, it's it's a potentially really

(49:49):
powerful tool, um, but by no means is it perfect
at this point? So listeners, um, did we totally just
debbie down your favorite period tracker app? Um? I, for one,
UH would recommend Clue because I'd attend is a female
indie rad stem woman and I would like to put

(50:11):
my monetized uterus money in her pocket. So I'm sure
you'll have lots to say about this mom stuff at
how stuff works dot com is our email address. Um. Also,
if you have any recommendations for your favor period app,
please let us know. You can also tweet us that
at mom Stuff podcast or leave us a message over

(50:32):
on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages to
share with you when we come right back from a
quick break. Well, I have a letter here from Sandy
in response to our episode on women and heroin and uh.
Sandy said, I would love to thank you for talking

(50:54):
about this. It's been ignored for so long, and I'm
so glad that you, as well as many other news outlets,
are acknowledging this is an issue. I work at a
methodone clinic and I wanted to share some insight. I
know you mentioned methodone can be addictive, and I wanted
to let you know that though you can become physically
dependent on methodone, like a diabetic is dependent on insulin,

(51:14):
it is not addictive. The commonly accepted definition of addiction
is it's defined as a chronic, relapsing brain disease that
is characterized by compulsive drugs seeking and use despite harmful consequences.
This is a common misconception and many people think that
dependence and addiction are the same thing when they are not.

(51:35):
As a Methodone clinic nurse and an advocate of my clients,
I wish to let you know that there is a difference,
and this misconception leads many away from seeking treatment. We
treat so many people who have other medical issues HIV
and hepatitis C, who without methodone could not get off
of other opiates, reduce health risks and seek care for
current problems. Methodone allows our patients to work and live

(51:58):
a quote unquote normal life. There are, of course, people
who abuse all systems, but I wish this would not
be a deterrent to the whole system that can do
good for so many. Again, I just wish to educate,
not chastise. I love you guys, and this is a
very common misconception. Thank you so much for the hard work,
and Sandy, thank you for the very thoughtful feedback. So

(52:20):
I have a letter here from Claire also about that
episode on women and Heroin and Claire rights. I'm currently
pursuing my Master of Social Work at the University of
Illinois and I'm in the internship portion right now. I
interned at a substance abuse treatment facility where I see
the way that trauma and adequate mental health services and
substance use collide. Since I work in a nonprofit, most

(52:43):
of our clients are on Medicaid, and I've been referred
in by parole probation, de facts or drug CORP. I
really appreciated how well you handle the discussion about addiction
and substance use. Honestly, I don't love working within the
framework of addiction because so much of the treatment is
focused on the substance use rather than talking about the
other factors that have led to substance use. Statistically, a

(53:06):
huge portion of individuals that struggle with substance use also
have other comorbid disorders. However, I find there are very
few clients who don't have some kind of trauma or
pain that has led them to begin to use in
an unhealthy way. There are only a few clients who
would tell you that they use because it was fun,
and who are telling you the truth. Most of our

(53:28):
clients are dealing with mental disorders, trauma, history, poverty, community violence,
justina a few things. It's hard, as a new member
of the treatment team to work with individuals who have
become so numb to these facts about our clients that
they fail to see how much they can, can and
do contribute to a client's pattern of use, and yet
none of these circumstances or comorbidities are excuse enough for

(53:52):
a client to keep using. The clients we actually have
the greatest success with are those referred by defacts, especially
the women. They're usually incredibly committed to getting their children back,
which helps them fight through treatment and all of the
appointments they have to keep while maintaining an employment. I
was thrilled to hear about the inpatient facility in Iowa

(54:12):
that allowed women to bring their children and still access
that level of care. I also wanted to thank you
for your episode on the Welfare Queen. It was a
nice refresher on social work policy my favorite class, and
I know my professor is directing her current students to
listen as a way to study for the mid term.
Very cool. Public assistance and welfare not the same, as
public assistance is an umbrella term to refer to any

(54:35):
aid coming from the government, which includes housing, snap, et cetera.
Looking forward to the future episode on women in social work,
please all caps touch on the fact that we don't
get paid very much because we are also given good karma.
Oh yeah, we're definitely gonna have to come back to
look at women in social work because there is a

(54:56):
lot there to discuss. So thanks for kicking off that
convert station, Claire and sharing your insights, and thanks to
everybody who's written into us. Mom stuff at how stuff
works dot com is our email address and for links
to all of our social media as well as all
of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with our sources so
you can learn even more about period tracking apps. Head

(55:18):
on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot com
for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is
it how stuff works dot com