January 11, 2016 • 44 mins
When did weddings become so impractical, costing more than $26,000 on average? Meg Keene, A Practical Wedding Founder and author of the new "A Practical Wedding Planner" shares her insights and advice what an affordable, feminist wedding looks like and how to pull it off gracefully.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from how stuff works,
not come hello, would welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen,
and I'm Caroline, and Caroline, I'm in the midst of
doing something I never really dreamed about, really planning my wedding,
(00:23):
all right. Yeah, it has been an interesting process, I'll
put it that way, because walking into this, obviously I
have so much stuff Mom never told you, know how
about all of the constructs and the wherefores and wise
of these very strange wedding traditions that we tend to follow.
(00:48):
But once you actually get into the weeds of wedding planning,
it can be intense. I would imagine I would be.
I'm imagining lots of pressure from lots of people in
the rides life. I'm not necessarily stening to you, Kristen,
but imagine there's a lot of pressure. Yeah, I mean,
I don't know how much pressure is directly from people
(01:10):
in my life. I gotta hand it to my parents.
They've been extremely chill about the whole thing. But what
surprised me the most is the media pressure that I felt.
Because as soon as you start digging into a lot
of the mainstream wedding media. You quickly understand why the
average cost of a wedding in the United States is
(01:32):
a little over twenty six dollars. Why because there's so much.
There's just so much, and since it's wedding, there's often
a markup, and you've got a statistical rundown right of
some of the individual expenses. Yeah, So before I dive
(01:53):
into individual stuff, I would just like to point out
that as of just a few years ago, not too
long ago, um, the wedding industry in the United States
was worth fifty three point four billion dollars. That's that's
so much money. And it's even crazier because if you
look at gifts that were purchased in off of wedding registries,
(02:14):
people collectively in the US spent nineteen billion dollars on
wedding gifts. So I hope your registry looks good. Conger
and well, I've registered for nineteen billion dollars with a
gift perfect. You're great, You're right on average. It was interesting.
So I was looking at some some stats and interesting
tidbits about weddings and the wedding industry off of this
(02:36):
CNN story from a couple of years ago, and in twelve,
they pointed out that seventeen percent of American brides opted
for a quote unquote casual wedding, which is apparently much
more than it had been in previous years. It just
means that you're wearing a denim dress, the Britney Spears dress,
(02:57):
You're dressed like Britney Spears, and justin Timberlake whatever year,
that one of the very best couple photo of all time. Yes, Well,
the thing is casual is such a deceptive term, I
feel like, because casual can mean a courthouse wedding with
a backyard party, but casual can also mean just casual
(03:17):
looking and thousands upon thousands of dollars. So I now
view the word casual in a wedding context with a
very skeptical eye. Yeah, but that's something that we're talking
about today with our special gifts, that's right. I gotta
tell you, Caroline and I and I'm not saying this
as some kind of paid endorsement um Legitimately, long before
(03:38):
we were introduced, a practical wedding has been a lifesaver
and sanity preserver for me during this wedding planning, because
I'm doing a lot of it with McGroom to be
d i Y Style and a Practical Wedding was created
(04:00):
by Meg Keene, who we're talking to you today in
two thousand and eight, and it is just a haven
for literally what it says, like, practical advice about wedding planning. Yeah,
it's a great website and it's also a book. Now
it's a book. It's actually two books. So a little
while back she published a Practical Wedding Creative Solutions for
(04:22):
Planning a Beautiful, affordable and meaningful Celebration, and just recently
the newest Practical Wedding book came out, which is a
Practical Wedding Planner, a step by step guide to cutting
through the crazy and creating the wedding you want. And
if you're someone like me who is a feminist and
(04:44):
you're marrying a feminist and you're approaching this wedding thing,
and you're like, okay, there's a whole money aspect, but
there's also the whole like patriarchal tradition in white dress
and father giving me away and all of this, and
what do we do with that? Go to a practical wedding.
It's seriously, it's like it's an amazing wedding site for
I mean for anybody, but for feminists. Well, I mean
it literally says on the website that they support laid
(05:06):
back feminist weddings. That's fantastic. And we were so thrilled
to get to talk to Meg because she has I
mean just so much insight from the time that she's
now spent in the wedding industry. But she's also she
I mean, she's just hilarious and wise. Oh god, she's
so funny. I think I think we should no matter
what our sminthy topic is, we should just have her
(05:27):
on the phone. I know, I know, and we we
had so much to chat with her about. This is
actually gonna be two part conversations, So today we're going
to talk with Meg about this whole practical wedding thing
and how weddings became so impractical and what a feminist
wedding and a feminist bride and groom really means. So,
(05:49):
without further ado, Meg Keane, ladies and gentlemen, well, Meg Keane,
thank you so much for joining us, UM for listeners
who haven't heard of you and a practical wedding, could
you just talk a little bit about who you are
and this amazing site and now two books that you've written. Sure, UM,
(06:14):
so I am sort of an unlikely wedding expert. UM.
The fact that I am a wedding expert has sort
of taken me by surprise for the last few years. UM.
I started the site almost eight years ago, which seems
insane to me at this point. UM, right after I
got engaged. And that was back in the day where
(06:36):
you could just sort of sign up for blog spot
and start typing away and if you're lucky, people would
read along. UM. And I I was lucky, UM, and
people read along UM. And it really has just sort
of grown gradually and then quickly, and now we're one
(06:57):
of the biggest wedding sites in the English language. I
always say in the English language, because I'm like, there's
probably a huge one in China that I don't know
about other country. UM. And I have written two books,
creatively titled A Practical Wedding and A Practical Wedding Planner.
The latter comes out UM this month. UH. And the
(07:22):
first one was sort of a it's your bff talking
you through wedding planning. I would say it's sort of
a d programming of the wedding industry. UM. I talked
about the history of weddings, the actual real life history
of weddings. UM. I talk about, you know how tradition
is actually just being nice to people. UM, and I
(07:43):
sort of try to undo all of that horrible, stressful
nonsense that the wedding industry has his ground into female
brains for so long. UM. And then the newest book
which is just coming out, UM, I spent nine grew
ling months interviewing tens and tens of people while pregnant.
(08:03):
Don't recommend UM and that is really like the logistical
wedding planning book that I would have probably given my
right arm for when I was planning a wedding. The
cover sort of everything from UM sample dolls you can use,
to how far apart your tables need to be UM
so you can walk between them too, how to set
a wedding budget, to what the real expenses of taco
(08:25):
truck wed weddings are, to non traditional wedding venues, and
what to know just sort of all of that information
that once you're on the ground plant planning, you're like,
oh my god, I super need to know this, and
there's really no way to find out which is a
weird thing about the wage. So I'm dying to know
you use the word deep programming. So as a as
(08:49):
an unengaged, unmarried lady, I need to know what is
the stuff that we need to be deprogrammed from and
what what is the stuff that's been ground into us
about weddings and wedding planning we like think, I mean
sort of. The interesting thing is how big weddings have gotten,
uh kind of while we weren't looking, I think, Um,
and how difficult that is when you actually start to plan. Um.
(09:16):
It's funny when you actually compare weddings as they are now,
Um to weddings you probably went to as a kid,
or I certainly went to it as a kid in
the eighties. Uh. They really don't look alike at all,
and they certainly don't look like anything like say, my
parents wedding in the mid seventies. Um. So weddings of
(09:37):
balloon to become this huge and hugely expensive thing where,
for example, you kind of assume that you'll serve people
a seated meal. Um, there's all these assumptions that you
have going into planning just from TV shows and commercials.
I think commercials are the worst, um, and wedding magazines
and friends weddings, and so you sort of come into
(09:58):
it with like, great, I'm just gonna have seated meal
and this like nice wedding dress and a letter of
presentations and it's gonna be great. And then you add
that up and you're like, oh, that's like sixty thousand dollars,
so maybe I'm not having that. So there's all of that,
and then there's the the gender issues, which I think
(10:19):
are really deep seated obviously, um in terms of the
fact that weddings are you know, the roots. Roots are
very patriarchal, and there's a lot of really sort of
stiff gender roles going on there, and within wedding planning
even even more so. I think the mini start planning
a wedding, you get sort of every success for Mark
(10:41):
in the book, um from like every random person on
the street. UM. So trying to grapple with that is
another sort of deep programming elements. So it's that whole like, oh,
I thought I wanted all of these things, and do
I really want all of these things or have I
just been conditioned to want all of these things? And
(11:02):
what can I hoard and what one of my values
and all of that. I am curious in all of
the research that you've done on the history of weddings
and like the cultural history, if you noticed that turning
point when weddings did become so impractical and did become
this whole wedding industrial complex machine that we think about
(11:26):
so much today. I think I thought a lot about
this question, and I think that probably the most critical
turning point was Princess size wedding. I don't think it
actually was that wedding, but I think that cultural shifts
were sort of happening right then, and that was the
(11:49):
you know that gives you sort of a local point, um.
But I think that there were cultural shifts happening in
the Lakes seventies, um that sort of all culminated in
the eighties where and I think probably the most critical
cultural shift was weddings went from being um, just a
(12:10):
fact of life, just you know, you grew up and
you got married and that was what happened, UM to
an optional thing, right, Like suddenly people were cohabitating, not
getting married. So suddenly then UM, having a wedding was
like a little bit more of a special snowflake decision.
(12:31):
I think, um, and people didn't want to, you know,
the countercultural movement was really, you know, happening, and people
didn't want to just sort of go along to go along,
and they wanted to make a statement. Um, and that
was sort of the wise of the wedding industry was
happening at happening at the same time. So I think
that's when it when it started. And then um, you
(12:54):
have Martha Stewart weddings starting and I want to say um.
And so I think you have another training points sort
of right around then as well, where it really powered
up even more. Thanks a lot, Martha. It's also pretty,
and then you're like, how much will it cost me
(13:15):
to do it? All of the moneys I've ever made?
It's so pretty. I made the mistake when I first
got engaged of running to the grocery store and picking
up Bride's magazine and Martha Stewart's Wedding just for fun,
and gave myself a panic attack flipping through it, just
being like, oh my gosh, I can never do this.
(13:36):
What how okay? Well, I can't even do anything that's
in her regular magazine, so I sure as hell I
don't think I can do anything in her bridal magazine.
But I mean that kind of leads me to the
question of the whole d I Y movement. It seems
like there's this I don't know if it's a pinterest
(13:56):
push or if it's another cultural shift that we're seeing it.
There is this push to have on the flip side,
like a super cheap wedding, like instead of buying into
the industrial wedding complex, you're gonna you know, make everything
from popsicle sticks but wedding. But whether it's a d
I Y wedding that you're paying a lot for in
(14:19):
terms of like you're crafting so much that you have
to spend so much money, or whether it really is
like super d i Y and you're trying to keep
it super cheap. How can you accomplish something along those
lines and not lose your mind trying that kind of wedding?
Does that make sense? Yeah? It does. And I would
say that that really starts to the the session right
(14:41):
that that's where that shift took place, um, which was
right around when I was getting married. Um it's a
balance and I think I actually learned writing this book
more than I had any idea before, even though I'd
been doing this for um nearly that. Okay, it's sort
of embarrassing how much I learned writing this book, because
(15:02):
I was like, I probably should have known this already somehow. Um.
But writing this book, I really got a grip on
the fact that d I Y isn't always cheaper, and
that I think you need to be really careful if you.
I mean, there's two reasons c d I Y. You're
maybe d I ying because you want to make something
(15:23):
extra special personal, or you want to make something with
your hands, or you know, for a lot of people,
weddings are like this sort of suddenly this creative vocal
point and outlet, you know, while they're they're in there
in twenties now and they're sitting at a desk all
day doing something, you know, incredibly uncreative. So if that's
the case, like great, not counsel about um. But then
(15:46):
there's the other the other instinct to d I Y
to save money UM. And I think I fell warrant
to that camp. Certainly. We just couldn't afford you know,
we could afford what I thought was a ton of money,
but it was still you know, half of the average
for the area. So, um, we were needing to cut corners,
and UM, we certainly made some mistakes um in that.
(16:11):
For example, we did d I Y all of our flowers. Um.
And it's totally possible to do that, and I actually
outlined in the book sort of all the best practices
if you're going to do that. But if I were
going to go back and do it all again, I
would order order personal flowers, you know, bouquets um from
a florist and probably just not have center pieces on
the tables and call it quits. Because we spent so
(16:34):
much money on d I Y and our own flowers,
there was like the test run to make sure that
we knew what we were doing, which I'm glad we did, uh,
And then not knowing how many flowers to buy, right,
so we went to the flower market and like in
a drunk spending spree of crazy bought like every flower
under the sun, and then you know, to make sure
we didn't run out, and then like buying all the supplies.
(16:57):
And so I think that's really sort of a case
study and like being careful what d I Y choices
you make, and also being really realistic about how many
of them you take on. And my cardinal rule is
the inverse of what you think is true, which is
you should only d I Y something if you care
a lot about it, and if you don't care about
(17:20):
it and you're just trying to save money, like that's
it's it's the other way, where things you don't care
about you should throw money at to make them go away,
and things that you do care about you might spend
less money on and like work on it with your hands.
But if you don't care about flowers, you're gonna want
to kill yourself. If you to save money have dedicated
(17:40):
like you know, days of your life to this project. Well,
that kind of reminds me of the along with the
d I Y culture. Sort of connected to that is
the rise of the chill bride, where I mean, I
wouldn't say that the d I Y bride is necessarily
the chill bride, but they're they're sort of in the
(18:01):
same family. They're related, um, and you know, we all
know how terrible the bride Zilla is. But I'm curious
about your your observations in terms of this this new
sort of aspirational bride who's just like she's still laid
back and you know, just it will happen the way
it'll happen. And honestly, the chill bride has has made
(18:24):
me as stressed out as the you know, overly intensive
bride because it's like, well, but but I need to
care a little bit, but I don't want to care
too much. I know, I know, oh that that was
really starting to happen big time when I got married,
So like, I feel you all that, and and still
was in my head that was the stupid part, right,
(18:46):
Like I was like fighting with myself like, well you
should be chill or maybe like the internet will find
out or something like like who's going to find out?
So what was I even you know, arguing with myself about.
But um, I think it's really true. Also sort of
one of our internal mantras, you know, within the staff
(19:06):
that we try to um like really communicate to people
online is that if you want to have a chill wedding,
that does not necessarily equal chill about planning and and
and we don't mean like stress yourself out, spend a
million dollars, but for your actual wedding experience to be chill,
(19:28):
which I would argue is way more important than being
like quote unquote the chill bride, um, you need to
have it planned out right, And um, one of my
co workers was formerly a wedding planner, so she's been
to just, you know, a zillion weddings, and she points
out that like the chill bride, like the really chill bride,
(19:50):
provides like the least possible chill wedding experience for her guests,
because not that not the only brides are planning weddings,
but you know, the really chill couple, their wedding is
like a disorganized disaster. And I've been to those weddings
where you're like, so, like what's happening next? Or are
we gonna eat? Or it's definitely been an hour since
(20:12):
the ceremony and it's like eight like because nothing's been playing.
So um, I think there's that balance. And god, it's
just like the city is all of the in city
is gender tropes about women, right, Like we can only
be one or the other. We can be Bridezilla or
we can be the child ride and like it's it's
(20:32):
like the whole cool girl thing of like I'm the
cool girl and I only care about things that boys
care about. I'm just so cool and chill, like is
that I don't know if that's a real thing that
a real human can can be. So um, I just
feel like it's it's like one more, one more for
(20:52):
for how there's a double standard. Yeah, Caroline and I
were just nodding emphatically to each other with your comparison
to a cool girl trope, because it's totally it's it's
the bridal version of that. Yeptally it seems like it
doesn't exist in the real world, and you know what,
it kind of does and and there's like a whole
marketing thing around it kind of does. But you need
(21:15):
to be careful about differentiating people that are paying for
their own weddings, are paying for their weddings along with
their family of reasonable means, and people whose parents are
paying for their weddings because they have a whole lot
of money because there's a market for that, right especially
(21:36):
in say New York, where a lot of the bridal
market is. And so it's like, yeah, you can be
the chill ride if you're spending and no judgment right,
Like sounds fun, But if you're spending a hundred thousand
dollars of your parents money and and so you're not
even stressed about it being your money, Like, yeah, you
can chill up because guess what, you just like pick
(21:56):
a dress and some flowers and show up because you
have a race planner. Um. And so I think that
gets communicated to us for wedding media. It's like, look
at this cool in the like chill bride. And now
that I have a trained eye, I can often look
at those weddings and be like, oh, that wedding is
two K. So we're like define chill. Well, what do
(22:19):
you make of the unweddings trend because that is separate
from the the chill bride um. So what about what
about that? What do you think that says about our
wedding culture? You know, there's a reason to do that,
And I think there's really a reason to do that
in some cases. Um. You know, for example, if you
have a really intense family and planning a wedding with
(22:43):
them is just going to be terrible. Um, but you
love them and want them to be there, you can
you know, maybe you it's up to you want to
like sort of plan a wedding on the slyly on
the sly and then be like, hey, we got married
you're mindaged me very though, Like if you have to
kind think through like how your people are going to
react to that. Are they going to be like, oh,
(23:03):
this is magical or is your mom gonna like pull
you aside later and wring your neck um and and
do you care? But yeah, I think you know, there's
we've sort of had the rise of the like small
wedding and the wedding in the past few years. When
I started to site, one of my stated goals was
to like make elopements cool again. And and either we
(23:25):
were really successful or everything changed, because now, like that
statement seems so ridiculous. We get so many elopements submissions
every month that we we have to turn most of
them down because we're like, well, we can't just run alopements.
That's not helpful for everybody planning bigger weddings. So now
it's like so incredibly popular to elope that, you know.
(23:46):
So we've sort of like the pendulum swings, and that's
where we are on the pendulum right now. Do you
notice any trends about who's eloping, isn't older couples, younger couples,
or a mix of both. I'm just I'm curious because
I'm thirty two and unmarried, and a lot of my
girlfriends who've already been through the process, many of them
have not just one, but many have said, God, just
(24:08):
a lope when it's your turn. So I was wondering
if this is a case of, like your girlfriends have
influenced you and you've seen the stress that they've gone through,
or is it just a mix? Is it a grab bag?
I think it's funny. I never really thought of that
about that, um, But I think it's older couples. I mean,
we've very rarely get a loans where you're like, oh,
they're twenty two. Um. Also because there's a different perception, right,
(24:33):
Like if you are thirty five and you a lope,
people are like, oh, that's cool. If you aren't twenty
two and you are lope, I think everybody's like, are
you pregnant? Did you think this through? Like what are
you doing? Um? So I think you kind of have
to like be old enough to feel like you are
(24:53):
in the right to not that you don't have the
right at any age, but like, I think that's probably
part of it psychological and the same like you're older,
you've been to a zillion weddings. Well, most people, actually
several people on staff, including me, like don't go to
a zillion weddings for whatever reason. But a lot of
people I hear in the world go to a zillion weddings.
(25:13):
So if you've been to like fourteen weddings last year,
you may just be like, I'm I'm done done. Well,
you mentioned the patriarchal traditions of weddings and the highly
gendered roles even just wrapped up with basic wedding planning.
So we wanted to talk to you about the concept
of feminist weddings because this well I don't need to say,
(25:39):
because I mean, what do you what do you think
about how those two combine. Well, I mean, first of all,
I am like the world's strongest proponent for like they
do combine, because there is this, you know, this argument
that like, weddings are built on patriarch traditions, so it's
impossible to have a phone a wedding, and I'm kind
(26:01):
of like, yeah, Also, the world is built on patriarchal
arcal traditions and we have to like carry on and
move forward. So, um, if we if we threw out
everything that was based on patriarchal traditions, like how could
we even get out of bed in the morning? Um So,
I just feel like you just have to be able
to reclaim the stuff that you care about and um
(26:22):
whether that's like and then decide you don't care about
other stuff, right, Like I wear a makeup and that's
not don't wear that's a feminist choice, but like I'm
a feminist and I like makeup, so whatever. Um So,
I think part of it is is that, right that like,
where am I going to make a feminist dance on
my wedding? And where do I kind of just not
(26:42):
care enough? Um? And because you can't make every feminist
dance ever ever, but you can't do it for weddings
usually there's just sort of too much. Um So, I
think it's just a process of being thoughtful and then
I'm sure we'll talk more about this um when we
(27:04):
talk about sort of relationships in general. But I also
think it's a process of um fighting for what's important. Um.
I mean I really think that, especially in in mixed
gender partnerships, like um, dudes are only as feminist as
they are required to be. I mean, you know, I
(27:27):
married like a lovely feminist man and I still fight
with them over feminist issues like every day o the week. So, um,
I think I think there's a part of it's like
feminist education for your partner being like nope, we're not
going to do that and here's why. Um. So yeah,
it's picking your battle. Like I was not gonna have
my dad walked me down the aisle. That's but for
(27:49):
some people that's like a really emotional important thing. Um,
you know. But at the same time, we had a
Jewish wedding and um, my husband stumped on the glasses
and I didn't because we got we got down to
the end of sort of decision making, and I finally
was like I just I like, I have been having
reoccurring nightmares, which is which is true that I stomped
(28:11):
on the glass and a shark goes through my shoe
and like my foot bleeds really badly and I just
don't want to do it. Um, And my husband said like,
I just really want to do it on my own.
I don't want to do it with you, and I
was like right. So we went to our canter and
work in our really progressive synagogue and we're like, WHOA,
what do we do though, because feminism and she she
(28:34):
said he was feminism is a part also about deciding
what works for each of you. And if what works
for you is that he genuinely wants to stump on
the glass and you genuinely do not, then great, You've
made the right two weeks for you. So that happens
to sometimes. Oh that sounds so simple. Then, so a
feminist wedding basically looks like a wedding that you planned
(28:57):
together based on what feels comfortable and right and authentic
and meaningful to you. Yeah, I think so. I mean
it's the same with decisions around the house, right, Like
we pick our responsibilities in our household based on what
we care about and are good at, and that means
(29:17):
my husband cooks, so that's gender and non traditional, but
I'm totally our social secretary and that's gender conforming. But
that's just I'm good at it and I like it.
He's bad at it and he hates it. So that's
how we do it. Um. And I think it's sort
of the same thing with with the weddings that as
long as you kind of look at each item and
are like, what is right for us here? Um, then
(29:39):
you're gonna be fine. Yeah, my fiance and I keep
joking about how he's going to have a groom's march
and I'll be waiting for him. There is you was
wanting to feel a boat. So we were lucky that way.
We was like we had all these the Gallaxharian things already,
Like he walked down the aisle of his parents, and
I worked at the aisle of my parents, I know
what you know, and speaking of like non non feminist
(30:03):
things that I love, Like, I was really adamant about
the fact that everyone would stand up when I walked
down the aisle, and everyone did, and it's so like
one of the like emotional moments of my life. So
you know, whatever that worked for me. Do you see
any type of like feminist wedding marketing stuff trickling into
(30:26):
the whole wedding industry or is that still sort of
a fringe thing when it comes to marketing and planning
just my stuff? I mean feel like I feel like
I'm the I'm the guilty party here. Um, there's not
I don't think god. I mean, feminism is becoming such
(30:47):
a a buzzword, which you know has use up to
a nouns, but I think is mostly up right, like
it's a good thing. Um, but the wedding industry lags
behind everything so badly, you guys. I mean like sometimes
that people like such an easy mark to like work
in the industry and try to make it better because
(31:08):
you're just like it is legitimately so bad most of
the time. Um. So, yeah, I haven't seen a lot
of that, And like on one hand it might be
feel crashed, but like on the other hand, I might
be like, well, look at that, that's a nice change.
So now I've mentioned the egalitarian wedding planning and ceremonies,
(31:32):
and I just wanted to ask you a little bit
more about the groom. Where is the groom in this
whole process. I mean, that's kind of the incredible thing
with this massive life event, Like obviously the groom has
the moment with the proposal. We're speaking like hetero terms, obviously,
but then it's like everyone forgets about him until the
day of Um. So we have seen a real shift,
(31:57):
interestingly around that week gay marriage, which is weird, but
at the first doma decision, but it started changing, Like
when you talk to wedding photographers, it suddenly was like, oh,
grooms sort of the point of contact is often it's bride.
(32:18):
So there was this sort of I mean obviously, right,
a huge cultural shift, um, but somehow it made up
you know, fun So so we debunked that argument that
gay marriages make all of our marriage marriage is weaker.
Apparently they make all of our marriages more galitarian, which
is amazing. Um, so we're seeing a little bit more
of it. But god, it's it's terrible. But there is
(32:42):
the there's so many things to balance there. I think
it's important to remember who cares about what, right, because
I would rate my husband over things like, um, but
but I need you to pick flower colors, right and
find He was like, here's the thing. I don't care
(33:04):
at all, So if you make me pick, I'm just
going to pick at random. Um. But it was like,
but it's no, you have to be involved with every
part of planning. Well no, right, Like people need to
be involved in parts planning that they're interested in, and
then you have to divide up the things that nobody's
interested in amongst yourself, and you have to try to
(33:24):
balance like the actual amount of work. Right if if
like he's interested in like sitting in a chair and
watching TV. Then that doesn't work out for you. UM.
But the other there's sort of interesting thing that comes
up is because women are so conditioned to think about
weddings that often women are kind of a couple of
(33:44):
steps ahead on the progressive scale with weddings, where by
the time you get married, you know, you're engaged, you've
already moved past like I'm going to have a big
white you know, expensive whatever wet, and you've moved on
to like I'm going to have a feminist, alternative wedding. UM.
(34:06):
And your partner maybe has never thought about any of that,
because the amount of time they've spent thinking about weddings
is like ten minutes once UM, And so they're like,
I just whatever, I'm just signed up for this thing
I see on TV. UM. So we've seen that as
a point of conflict a lot, where the rooms still
want something really traditional and um, the bride again speaking
(34:27):
in hetero terms here, the bride um wants something less traditional.
And I just think it it has to do with
the amount of time that we have thought about it
over the course of our lives. So I'm really interested
in hearing what the top wedding etiquette and planning questions
and conundrums are that you feeled at a practical wedding,
like what are the things that people are dying to know?
(34:50):
Most often, well, the least common question is what do
I do about my friend who is making me buy address?
I saw that, Oh my gosh, and we researched it, right,
because when people sending questions, we usually do our due
diligence and research like who they are and make sure
that like this is a legit thing. Um, we don't
(35:12):
publish their names, right, but like we do our like
due diligence, fine disease, We're like, no, I think this
is for real, So that's not super common. But um,
I think that our most common question is some variation
of do I have to pay attention to this opinion
(35:34):
of X person that I love? Um? And the answer
is right, like only you know for sure, grasshopper, but
probably um. Not that you have to like do everything
that everyone you love wants, but you can't. Probably just
flow them off. UM. And we've started getting letters in
(35:58):
the past a year or so from mothers as the
site's sort of gotten a lot more well known. I
think UM and I have to say that they are
the most heartbreaking letters that we get. Um, they're just
oh God, Like I've cried when I've gotten them, especially
as a mom um, where it's just like I don't
(36:20):
understand and they won't tell me anything. And I just
asked about this one question and they called me invasive
and I've been crying for like three weeks. But I
definitely don't want them to know that I've been crying
for three weeks and can you help explain what's going on? Um? So,
you know, parents and loved ones get cast in this
(36:41):
sort of like bad guy role and the truth is
that you know, depends on your family relationship obviously, but
like if you have a good family relationship, your parents
have probably been thinking about your wedding a lot longer
than you have, or you know, even if it's not
your wedding specifically, like you're changing your kids diapers and
you're thinking about like I hope they have a happy life.
(37:03):
I hope they end up with a good partner. Um,
So do then have the to totally cut them out? Um?
I think is really painful for people. So I'm sure
that many times, UM, people playing their weddings who are
kind of losing their minds and like at that emotional
breaking point because it can get very emotional. Who come
(37:25):
to you and say, oh, this is awful. I don't
know what to do. What is your go to advice
to to calm calm, to cook, to calm nervous um
soon to be brides and grooms. Uh, you know, it's
it's hard because like people tell you things like, well,
at the end of the day, you'll be married, and
(37:45):
that is helpful, like the day before, right like that
it's really legitimately good advice the day before. Um, but
people were saying that to me two months out when
I was saying things like, uh, I we need to
figure out a way to get the alcohol up to
the picnic site, and people would be like, at the
end of the day, you'll be married, And I was
(38:05):
like that, I mean that you're definitely not gonna let
us use your car then, right, like that was not
a question I was asking you, Um, so I don't
know at the end of the day you will be married.
But um, I think it's important to remember that. It
(38:28):
feels really symbolic, but your wedding really is just this
party to celebrate something that you already have and that
you will continue to deepen over many years. And you know,
if things go wrong, it really doesn't matter in in
the scope of your wife. So it may matter in
the scope of this year or this month, but in
(38:49):
the scope of your life, you'll look back and be like, well,
that's a hilarious story. Hopefully. My mom jokes that every
wedding is supposed to have a story. Um, and we're
at a wedding on where the DJ started. He was
narrating everything that I did. She is now greeting table
twelve like all night long, and my mom goes, well,
(39:13):
at least she has her story now and a narrator, right,
DJ is I feel like it's like massive opportunity for
awkwardness with some of those DJs out there. So thank
(39:33):
you so much to Meg Keen, creator of a Practical
Wedding dot com And listeners. If you enjoyed hearing from Meg,
that's not all. There's more in the next episode. We're
going to talk about what happens after you get married
with a feminist marriage and being a feminist wife. There's
(39:55):
a lot more to learn. Yeah, and listeners, I can
promise you that even even I as an unengaged unmarried
lady found our conversation with Meg fascinating, so stay tuned,
and in the meantime, we want to hear from you,
dear listeners, about your wedding planning issues. Have you ever
felt any conflict between your feminist ideology and the prospect
(40:19):
of being engaged, of getting married and all of the
money and all of the expectations, Because listen, I've been there,
I am there, actually, so commiserate with me. Mom Stuff
at how stuff works dot Com is our email address.
You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or
messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages
(40:39):
to share with you right now. So I've gotta let
her hear about our two parter on the history of abortion.
And this is from someone who would like to remain anonymous,
and she wrote, I love this show and was so
excited to see all talking about abortion. I was really
dismayed though, when you open episode with no one is
(41:01):
really pro abortion. That's not true, and it plays into
the weird language that gets used around abortion but not
other types of healthcare. To crib from the sentiment expressed
in the Salon article below, I'm pro abortion just like
I'm pro knee surgery. I think people should get the
medical care that they need, and I think that there
should be health care professionals who are trained to provide
(41:22):
it and facilities where it can be access safely and
without harassment. I understand that what you were saying is,
wouldn't it be great if the need for abortion went away?
But the fact is that pregnancy is complicated, and so
are the lives of people who can get pregnant. Abortion
will always be needed by someone somewhere, and again, we
just don't talk about other medical procedures this way. I
suppose it would be great if the need for heart
(41:43):
surgery went away, but I never dream of saying no
one as pro heart surgery. Again, I'm a huge fan.
I spread the Sminty Gospel whenever I get the chance,
and I'm really glad you're talking about this important topic
and listeners. I didn't want to note that I responded
to this email to clarify and also, you know, say,
I totally get what uh this listener meant by that,
(42:07):
and just to clarify what I had meant by known
as really pro abortion more thinking about the mechanics of
abortion as a surgery, as a counter to the hyper
conservative perception that pro choice women are just running out
to get an abortion every chance they can because we
(42:29):
just love this particular procedure so much. But this language
when we talk about abortion, obviously, is really important to
pay attention to. So thank you to this listener for
highlighting that I have a letter here from Ali, As
she says, thank you so much for all the work
that you do for Sminty. I started listening to your
podcast about six months ago, and it's helped me to
articulate my thoughts on the gender disparities I've noticed, but
(42:51):
I've never really known how to discuss. I love listening
to you talk about complex issues in such a straightforward,
accessible and fun way. Listening to you both from minds
me of conversations I have with my friends, and I
really look forward to Mondays and Wednesdays when the new
podcast are released. I never thought about writing to you
until your History of Abortion episode came out. I'm a
technology consultant at a large firm in d C. It's
(43:13):
my promotion year and my firm has an upper out policy. Basically,
if I don't get promoted this year, I should start
looking for a new job. As a woman in technology.
I'm very mindful of how people perceived me, so imagine
how I felt when I found out that I was
pregnant in November by my boyfriend of two years. While
we love each other and hope to get married one day,
we both agreed that this was not the right time
for a baby. I'm working crazy hours trying to get promoted,
(43:36):
and he travels three times a month for his job.
A baby would have completely derailed our lives. So I
made the extremely difficult choice to get an abortion. I
did it for all of the right reasons, yet I
still feel like there's a void in my heart. My
abortion was not an easy decision, but it was a
decision that I made for myself and my future family.
I really appreciate that you started the podcast with the
(43:56):
statement we support the right to choose women who use abortion.
Faced so much hostility that it's refreshing to hear a
compassion in turn into the conversation. Again, thank you so
much for all that you do. Your podcast have become
a staple in my life. Please keep up the good
work and continue to approach your subjects with respect and compassion.
Thank you, Ali, and thanks to everybody who's written into us.
(44:18):
Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our
email address and for links all of our social media
as well as all of our videos, blogs and podcasts
with our sources. So you can learn more about Meg
Keene in a practical wedding, head on over to stuff
mom Never Told You dot com for more on this
(44:39):
and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works
dot com
Welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from how stuff works,
not come hello, would welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen,
and I'm Caroline, and Caroline, I'm in the midst of
doing something I never really dreamed about, really planning my wedding,
(00:23):
all right. Yeah, it has been an interesting process, I'll
put it that way, because walking into this, obviously I
have so much stuff Mom never told you, know how
about all of the constructs and the wherefores and wise
of these very strange wedding traditions that we tend to follow.
(00:48):
But once you actually get into the weeds of wedding planning,
it can be intense. I would imagine I would be.
I'm imagining lots of pressure from lots of people in
the rides life. I'm not necessarily stening to you, Kristen,
but imagine there's a lot of pressure. Yeah, I mean,
I don't know how much pressure is directly from people
(01:10):
in my life. I gotta hand it to my parents.
They've been extremely chill about the whole thing. But what
surprised me the most is the media pressure that I felt.
Because as soon as you start digging into a lot
of the mainstream wedding media. You quickly understand why the
average cost of a wedding in the United States is
(01:32):
a little over twenty six dollars. Why because there's so much.
There's just so much, and since it's wedding, there's often
a markup, and you've got a statistical rundown right of
some of the individual expenses. Yeah, So before I dive
(01:53):
into individual stuff, I would just like to point out
that as of just a few years ago, not too
long ago, um, the wedding industry in the United States
was worth fifty three point four billion dollars. That's that's
so much money. And it's even crazier because if you
look at gifts that were purchased in off of wedding registries,
(02:14):
people collectively in the US spent nineteen billion dollars on
wedding gifts. So I hope your registry looks good. Conger
and well, I've registered for nineteen billion dollars with a
gift perfect. You're great, You're right on average. It was interesting.
So I was looking at some some stats and interesting
tidbits about weddings and the wedding industry off of this
(02:36):
CNN story from a couple of years ago, and in twelve,
they pointed out that seventeen percent of American brides opted
for a quote unquote casual wedding, which is apparently much
more than it had been in previous years. It just
means that you're wearing a denim dress, the Britney Spears dress,
(02:57):
You're dressed like Britney Spears, and justin Timberlake whatever year,
that one of the very best couple photo of all time. Yes, Well,
the thing is casual is such a deceptive term, I
feel like, because casual can mean a courthouse wedding with
a backyard party, but casual can also mean just casual
(03:17):
looking and thousands upon thousands of dollars. So I now
view the word casual in a wedding context with a
very skeptical eye. Yeah, but that's something that we're talking
about today with our special gifts, that's right. I gotta
tell you, Caroline and I and I'm not saying this
as some kind of paid endorsement um Legitimately, long before
(03:38):
we were introduced, a practical wedding has been a lifesaver
and sanity preserver for me during this wedding planning, because
I'm doing a lot of it with McGroom to be
d i Y Style and a Practical Wedding was created
(04:00):
by Meg Keene, who we're talking to you today in
two thousand and eight, and it is just a haven
for literally what it says, like, practical advice about wedding planning. Yeah,
it's a great website and it's also a book. Now
it's a book. It's actually two books. So a little
while back she published a Practical Wedding Creative Solutions for
(04:22):
Planning a Beautiful, affordable and meaningful Celebration, and just recently
the newest Practical Wedding book came out, which is a
Practical Wedding Planner, a step by step guide to cutting
through the crazy and creating the wedding you want. And
if you're someone like me who is a feminist and
(04:44):
you're marrying a feminist and you're approaching this wedding thing,
and you're like, okay, there's a whole money aspect, but
there's also the whole like patriarchal tradition in white dress
and father giving me away and all of this, and
what do we do with that? Go to a practical wedding.
It's seriously, it's like it's an amazing wedding site for
I mean for anybody, but for feminists. Well, I mean
it literally says on the website that they support laid
(05:06):
back feminist weddings. That's fantastic. And we were so thrilled
to get to talk to Meg because she has I
mean just so much insight from the time that she's
now spent in the wedding industry. But she's also she
I mean, she's just hilarious and wise. Oh god, she's
so funny. I think I think we should no matter
what our sminthy topic is, we should just have her
(05:27):
on the phone. I know, I know, and we we
had so much to chat with her about. This is
actually gonna be two part conversations, So today we're going
to talk with Meg about this whole practical wedding thing
and how weddings became so impractical and what a feminist
wedding and a feminist bride and groom really means. So,
(05:49):
without further ado, Meg Keane, ladies and gentlemen, well, Meg Keane,
thank you so much for joining us, UM for listeners
who haven't heard of you and a practical wedding, could
you just talk a little bit about who you are
and this amazing site and now two books that you've written. Sure, UM,
(06:14):
so I am sort of an unlikely wedding expert. UM.
The fact that I am a wedding expert has sort
of taken me by surprise for the last few years. UM.
I started the site almost eight years ago, which seems
insane to me at this point. UM, right after I
got engaged. And that was back in the day where
(06:36):
you could just sort of sign up for blog spot
and start typing away and if you're lucky, people would
read along. UM. And I I was lucky, UM, and
people read along UM. And it really has just sort
of grown gradually and then quickly, and now we're one
(06:57):
of the biggest wedding sites in the English language. I
always say in the English language, because I'm like, there's
probably a huge one in China that I don't know
about other country. UM. And I have written two books,
creatively titled A Practical Wedding and A Practical Wedding Planner.
The latter comes out UM this month. UH. And the
(07:22):
first one was sort of a it's your bff talking
you through wedding planning. I would say it's sort of
a d programming of the wedding industry. UM. I talked
about the history of weddings, the actual real life history
of weddings. UM. I talk about, you know how tradition
is actually just being nice to people. UM, and I
(07:43):
sort of try to undo all of that horrible, stressful
nonsense that the wedding industry has his ground into female
brains for so long. UM. And then the newest book
which is just coming out, UM, I spent nine grew
ling months interviewing tens and tens of people while pregnant.
(08:03):
Don't recommend UM and that is really like the logistical
wedding planning book that I would have probably given my
right arm for when I was planning a wedding. The
cover sort of everything from UM sample dolls you can use,
to how far apart your tables need to be UM
so you can walk between them too, how to set
a wedding budget, to what the real expenses of taco
(08:25):
truck wed weddings are, to non traditional wedding venues, and
what to know just sort of all of that information
that once you're on the ground plant planning, you're like,
oh my god, I super need to know this, and
there's really no way to find out which is a
weird thing about the wage. So I'm dying to know
you use the word deep programming. So as a as
(08:49):
an unengaged, unmarried lady, I need to know what is
the stuff that we need to be deprogrammed from and
what what is the stuff that's been ground into us
about weddings and wedding planning we like think, I mean
sort of. The interesting thing is how big weddings have gotten,
uh kind of while we weren't looking, I think, Um,
and how difficult that is when you actually start to plan. Um.
(09:16):
It's funny when you actually compare weddings as they are now,
Um to weddings you probably went to as a kid,
or I certainly went to it as a kid in
the eighties. Uh. They really don't look alike at all,
and they certainly don't look like anything like say, my
parents wedding in the mid seventies. Um. So weddings of
(09:37):
balloon to become this huge and hugely expensive thing where,
for example, you kind of assume that you'll serve people
a seated meal. Um, there's all these assumptions that you
have going into planning just from TV shows and commercials.
I think commercials are the worst, um, and wedding magazines
and friends weddings, and so you sort of come into
(09:58):
it with like, great, I'm just gonna have seated meal
and this like nice wedding dress and a letter of
presentations and it's gonna be great. And then you add
that up and you're like, oh, that's like sixty thousand dollars,
so maybe I'm not having that. So there's all of that,
and then there's the the gender issues, which I think
(10:19):
are really deep seated obviously, um in terms of the
fact that weddings are you know, the roots. Roots are
very patriarchal, and there's a lot of really sort of
stiff gender roles going on there, and within wedding planning
even even more so. I think the mini start planning
a wedding, you get sort of every success for Mark
(10:41):
in the book, um from like every random person on
the street. UM. So trying to grapple with that is
another sort of deep programming elements. So it's that whole like, oh,
I thought I wanted all of these things, and do
I really want all of these things or have I
just been conditioned to want all of these things? And
(11:02):
what can I hoard and what one of my values
and all of that. I am curious in all of
the research that you've done on the history of weddings
and like the cultural history, if you noticed that turning
point when weddings did become so impractical and did become
this whole wedding industrial complex machine that we think about
(11:26):
so much today. I think I thought a lot about
this question, and I think that probably the most critical
turning point was Princess size wedding. I don't think it
actually was that wedding, but I think that cultural shifts
were sort of happening right then, and that was the
(11:49):
you know that gives you sort of a local point, um.
But I think that there were cultural shifts happening in
the Lakes seventies, um that sort of all culminated in
the eighties where and I think probably the most critical
cultural shift was weddings went from being um, just a
(12:10):
fact of life, just you know, you grew up and
you got married and that was what happened, UM to
an optional thing, right, Like suddenly people were cohabitating, not
getting married. So suddenly then UM, having a wedding was
like a little bit more of a special snowflake decision.
(12:31):
I think, um, and people didn't want to, you know,
the countercultural movement was really, you know, happening, and people
didn't want to just sort of go along to go along,
and they wanted to make a statement. Um, and that
was sort of the wise of the wedding industry was
happening at happening at the same time. So I think
that's when it when it started. And then um, you
(12:54):
have Martha Stewart weddings starting and I want to say um.
And so I think you have another training points sort
of right around then as well, where it really powered
up even more. Thanks a lot, Martha. It's also pretty,
and then you're like, how much will it cost me
(13:15):
to do it? All of the moneys I've ever made?
It's so pretty. I made the mistake when I first
got engaged of running to the grocery store and picking
up Bride's magazine and Martha Stewart's Wedding just for fun,
and gave myself a panic attack flipping through it, just
being like, oh my gosh, I can never do this.
(13:36):
What how okay? Well, I can't even do anything that's
in her regular magazine, so I sure as hell I
don't think I can do anything in her bridal magazine.
But I mean that kind of leads me to the
question of the whole d I Y movement. It seems
like there's this I don't know if it's a pinterest
(13:56):
push or if it's another cultural shift that we're seeing it.
There is this push to have on the flip side,
like a super cheap wedding, like instead of buying into
the industrial wedding complex, you're gonna you know, make everything
from popsicle sticks but wedding. But whether it's a d
I Y wedding that you're paying a lot for in
(14:19):
terms of like you're crafting so much that you have
to spend so much money, or whether it really is
like super d i Y and you're trying to keep
it super cheap. How can you accomplish something along those
lines and not lose your mind trying that kind of wedding?
Does that make sense? Yeah? It does. And I would
say that that really starts to the the session right
(14:41):
that that's where that shift took place, um, which was
right around when I was getting married. Um it's a
balance and I think I actually learned writing this book
more than I had any idea before, even though I'd
been doing this for um nearly that. Okay, it's sort
of embarrassing how much I learned writing this book, because
(15:02):
I was like, I probably should have known this already somehow. Um.
But writing this book, I really got a grip on
the fact that d I Y isn't always cheaper, and
that I think you need to be really careful if you.
I mean, there's two reasons c d I Y. You're
maybe d I ying because you want to make something
(15:23):
extra special personal, or you want to make something with
your hands, or you know, for a lot of people,
weddings are like this sort of suddenly this creative vocal
point and outlet, you know, while they're they're in there
in twenties now and they're sitting at a desk all
day doing something, you know, incredibly uncreative. So if that's
the case, like great, not counsel about um. But then
(15:46):
there's the other the other instinct to d I Y
to save money UM. And I think I fell warrant
to that camp. Certainly. We just couldn't afford you know,
we could afford what I thought was a ton of money,
but it was still you know, half of the average
for the area. So, um, we were needing to cut corners,
and UM, we certainly made some mistakes um in that.
(16:11):
For example, we did d I Y all of our flowers. Um.
And it's totally possible to do that, and I actually
outlined in the book sort of all the best practices
if you're going to do that. But if I were
going to go back and do it all again, I
would order order personal flowers, you know, bouquets um from
a florist and probably just not have center pieces on
the tables and call it quits. Because we spent so
(16:34):
much money on d I Y and our own flowers,
there was like the test run to make sure that
we knew what we were doing, which I'm glad we did, uh,
And then not knowing how many flowers to buy, right,
so we went to the flower market and like in
a drunk spending spree of crazy bought like every flower
under the sun, and then you know, to make sure
we didn't run out, and then like buying all the supplies.
(16:57):
And so I think that's really sort of a case
study and like being careful what d I Y choices
you make, and also being really realistic about how many
of them you take on. And my cardinal rule is
the inverse of what you think is true, which is
you should only d I Y something if you care
a lot about it, and if you don't care about
(17:20):
it and you're just trying to save money, like that's
it's it's the other way, where things you don't care
about you should throw money at to make them go away,
and things that you do care about you might spend
less money on and like work on it with your hands.
But if you don't care about flowers, you're gonna want
to kill yourself. If you to save money have dedicated
(17:40):
like you know, days of your life to this project. Well,
that kind of reminds me of the along with the
d I Y culture. Sort of connected to that is
the rise of the chill bride, where I mean, I
wouldn't say that the d I Y bride is necessarily
the chill bride, but they're they're sort of in the
(18:01):
same family. They're related, um, and you know, we all
know how terrible the bride Zilla is. But I'm curious
about your your observations in terms of this this new
sort of aspirational bride who's just like she's still laid
back and you know, just it will happen the way
it'll happen. And honestly, the chill bride has has made
(18:24):
me as stressed out as the you know, overly intensive
bride because it's like, well, but but I need to
care a little bit, but I don't want to care
too much. I know, I know, oh that that was
really starting to happen big time when I got married,
So like, I feel you all that, and and still
was in my head that was the stupid part, right,
(18:46):
Like I was like fighting with myself like, well you
should be chill or maybe like the internet will find
out or something like like who's going to find out?
So what was I even you know, arguing with myself about.
But um, I think it's really true. Also sort of
one of our internal mantras, you know, within the staff
(19:06):
that we try to um like really communicate to people
online is that if you want to have a chill wedding,
that does not necessarily equal chill about planning and and
and we don't mean like stress yourself out, spend a
million dollars, but for your actual wedding experience to be chill,
(19:28):
which I would argue is way more important than being
like quote unquote the chill bride, um, you need to
have it planned out right, And um, one of my
co workers was formerly a wedding planner, so she's been
to just, you know, a zillion weddings, and she points
out that like the chill bride, like the really chill bride,
(19:50):
provides like the least possible chill wedding experience for her guests,
because not that not the only brides are planning weddings,
but you know, the really chill couple, their wedding is
like a disorganized disaster. And I've been to those weddings
where you're like, so, like what's happening next? Or are
we gonna eat? Or it's definitely been an hour since
(20:12):
the ceremony and it's like eight like because nothing's been playing.
So um, I think there's that balance. And god, it's
just like the city is all of the in city
is gender tropes about women, right, Like we can only
be one or the other. We can be Bridezilla or
we can be the child ride and like it's it's
(20:32):
like the whole cool girl thing of like I'm the
cool girl and I only care about things that boys
care about. I'm just so cool and chill, like is
that I don't know if that's a real thing that
a real human can can be. So um, I just
feel like it's it's like one more, one more for
(20:52):
for how there's a double standard. Yeah, Caroline and I
were just nodding emphatically to each other with your comparison
to a cool girl trope, because it's totally it's it's
the bridal version of that. Yeptally it seems like it
doesn't exist in the real world, and you know what,
it kind of does and and there's like a whole
marketing thing around it kind of does. But you need
(21:15):
to be careful about differentiating people that are paying for
their own weddings, are paying for their weddings along with
their family of reasonable means, and people whose parents are
paying for their weddings because they have a whole lot
of money because there's a market for that, right especially
(21:36):
in say New York, where a lot of the bridal
market is. And so it's like, yeah, you can be
the chill ride if you're spending and no judgment right,
Like sounds fun, But if you're spending a hundred thousand
dollars of your parents money and and so you're not
even stressed about it being your money, Like, yeah, you
can chill up because guess what, you just like pick
(21:56):
a dress and some flowers and show up because you
have a race planner. Um. And so I think that
gets communicated to us for wedding media. It's like, look
at this cool in the like chill bride. And now
that I have a trained eye, I can often look
at those weddings and be like, oh, that wedding is
two K. So we're like define chill. Well, what do
(22:19):
you make of the unweddings trend because that is separate
from the the chill bride um. So what about what
about that? What do you think that says about our
wedding culture? You know, there's a reason to do that,
And I think there's really a reason to do that
in some cases. Um. You know, for example, if you
have a really intense family and planning a wedding with
(22:43):
them is just going to be terrible. Um, but you
love them and want them to be there, you can
you know, maybe you it's up to you want to
like sort of plan a wedding on the slyly on
the sly and then be like, hey, we got married
you're mindaged me very though, Like if you have to
kind think through like how your people are going to
react to that. Are they going to be like, oh,
(23:03):
this is magical or is your mom gonna like pull
you aside later and wring your neck um and and
do you care? But yeah, I think you know, there's
we've sort of had the rise of the like small
wedding and the wedding in the past few years. When
I started to site, one of my stated goals was
to like make elopements cool again. And and either we
(23:25):
were really successful or everything changed, because now, like that
statement seems so ridiculous. We get so many elopements submissions
every month that we we have to turn most of
them down because we're like, well, we can't just run alopements.
That's not helpful for everybody planning bigger weddings. So now
it's like so incredibly popular to elope that, you know.
(23:46):
So we've sort of like the pendulum swings, and that's
where we are on the pendulum right now. Do you
notice any trends about who's eloping, isn't older couples, younger couples,
or a mix of both. I'm just I'm curious because
I'm thirty two and unmarried, and a lot of my
girlfriends who've already been through the process, many of them
have not just one, but many have said, God, just
(24:08):
a lope when it's your turn. So I was wondering
if this is a case of, like your girlfriends have
influenced you and you've seen the stress that they've gone through,
or is it just a mix? Is it a grab bag?
I think it's funny. I never really thought of that
about that, um, But I think it's older couples. I mean,
we've very rarely get a loans where you're like, oh,
they're twenty two. Um. Also because there's a different perception, right,
(24:33):
Like if you are thirty five and you a lope,
people are like, oh, that's cool. If you aren't twenty
two and you are lope, I think everybody's like, are
you pregnant? Did you think this through? Like what are
you doing? Um? So I think you kind of have
to like be old enough to feel like you are
(24:53):
in the right to not that you don't have the
right at any age, but like, I think that's probably
part of it psychological and the same like you're older,
you've been to a zillion weddings. Well, most people, actually
several people on staff, including me, like don't go to
a zillion weddings for whatever reason. But a lot of
people I hear in the world go to a zillion weddings.
(25:13):
So if you've been to like fourteen weddings last year,
you may just be like, I'm I'm done done. Well,
you mentioned the patriarchal traditions of weddings and the highly
gendered roles even just wrapped up with basic wedding planning.
So we wanted to talk to you about the concept
of feminist weddings because this well I don't need to say,
(25:39):
because I mean, what do you what do you think
about how those two combine. Well, I mean, first of all,
I am like the world's strongest proponent for like they
do combine, because there is this, you know, this argument
that like, weddings are built on patriarch traditions, so it's
impossible to have a phone a wedding, and I'm kind
(26:01):
of like, yeah, Also, the world is built on patriarchal
arcal traditions and we have to like carry on and
move forward. So, um, if we if we threw out
everything that was based on patriarchal traditions, like how could
we even get out of bed in the morning? Um So,
I just feel like you just have to be able
to reclaim the stuff that you care about and um
(26:22):
whether that's like and then decide you don't care about
other stuff, right, Like I wear a makeup and that's
not don't wear that's a feminist choice, but like I'm
a feminist and I like makeup, so whatever. Um So,
I think part of it is is that, right that like,
where am I going to make a feminist dance on
my wedding? And where do I kind of just not
(26:42):
care enough? Um? And because you can't make every feminist
dance ever ever, but you can't do it for weddings
usually there's just sort of too much. Um So, I
think it's just a process of being thoughtful and then
I'm sure we'll talk more about this um when we
(27:04):
talk about sort of relationships in general. But I also
think it's a process of um fighting for what's important. Um.
I mean I really think that, especially in in mixed
gender partnerships, like um, dudes are only as feminist as
they are required to be. I mean, you know, I
(27:27):
married like a lovely feminist man and I still fight
with them over feminist issues like every day o the week. So, um,
I think I think there's a part of it's like
feminist education for your partner being like nope, we're not
going to do that and here's why. Um. So yeah,
it's picking your battle. Like I was not gonna have
my dad walked me down the aisle. That's but for
(27:49):
some people that's like a really emotional important thing. Um,
you know. But at the same time, we had a
Jewish wedding and um, my husband stumped on the glasses
and I didn't because we got we got down to
the end of sort of decision making, and I finally
was like I just I like, I have been having
reoccurring nightmares, which is which is true that I stomped
(28:11):
on the glass and a shark goes through my shoe
and like my foot bleeds really badly and I just
don't want to do it. Um, And my husband said like,
I just really want to do it on my own.
I don't want to do it with you, and I
was like right. So we went to our canter and
work in our really progressive synagogue and we're like, WHOA,
what do we do though, because feminism and she she
(28:34):
said he was feminism is a part also about deciding
what works for each of you. And if what works
for you is that he genuinely wants to stump on
the glass and you genuinely do not, then great, You've
made the right two weeks for you. So that happens
to sometimes. Oh that sounds so simple. Then, so a
feminist wedding basically looks like a wedding that you planned
(28:57):
together based on what feels comfortable and right and authentic
and meaningful to you. Yeah, I think so. I mean
it's the same with decisions around the house, right, Like
we pick our responsibilities in our household based on what
we care about and are good at, and that means
(29:17):
my husband cooks, so that's gender and non traditional, but
I'm totally our social secretary and that's gender conforming. But
that's just I'm good at it and I like it.
He's bad at it and he hates it. So that's
how we do it. Um. And I think it's sort
of the same thing with with the weddings that as
long as you kind of look at each item and
are like, what is right for us here? Um, then
(29:39):
you're gonna be fine. Yeah, my fiance and I keep
joking about how he's going to have a groom's march
and I'll be waiting for him. There is you was
wanting to feel a boat. So we were lucky that way.
We was like we had all these the Gallaxharian things already,
Like he walked down the aisle of his parents, and
I worked at the aisle of my parents, I know
what you know, and speaking of like non non feminist
(30:03):
things that I love, Like, I was really adamant about
the fact that everyone would stand up when I walked
down the aisle, and everyone did, and it's so like
one of the like emotional moments of my life. So
you know, whatever that worked for me. Do you see
any type of like feminist wedding marketing stuff trickling into
(30:26):
the whole wedding industry or is that still sort of
a fringe thing when it comes to marketing and planning
just my stuff? I mean feel like I feel like
I'm the I'm the guilty party here. Um, there's not
I don't think god. I mean, feminism is becoming such
(30:47):
a a buzzword, which you know has use up to
a nouns, but I think is mostly up right, like
it's a good thing. Um, but the wedding industry lags
behind everything so badly, you guys. I mean like sometimes
that people like such an easy mark to like work
in the industry and try to make it better because
(31:08):
you're just like it is legitimately so bad most of
the time. Um. So, yeah, I haven't seen a lot
of that, And like on one hand it might be
feel crashed, but like on the other hand, I might
be like, well, look at that, that's a nice change.
So now I've mentioned the egalitarian wedding planning and ceremonies,
(31:32):
and I just wanted to ask you a little bit
more about the groom. Where is the groom in this
whole process. I mean, that's kind of the incredible thing
with this massive life event, Like obviously the groom has
the moment with the proposal. We're speaking like hetero terms, obviously,
but then it's like everyone forgets about him until the
day of Um. So we have seen a real shift,
(31:57):
interestingly around that week gay marriage, which is weird, but
at the first doma decision, but it started changing, Like
when you talk to wedding photographers, it suddenly was like, oh,
grooms sort of the point of contact is often it's bride.
(32:18):
So there was this sort of I mean obviously, right,
a huge cultural shift, um, but somehow it made up
you know, fun So so we debunked that argument that
gay marriages make all of our marriage marriage is weaker.
Apparently they make all of our marriages more galitarian, which
is amazing. Um, so we're seeing a little bit more
of it. But god, it's it's terrible. But there is
(32:42):
the there's so many things to balance there. I think
it's important to remember who cares about what, right, because
I would rate my husband over things like, um, but
but I need you to pick flower colors, right and
find He was like, here's the thing. I don't care
(33:04):
at all, So if you make me pick, I'm just
going to pick at random. Um. But it was like,
but it's no, you have to be involved with every
part of planning. Well no, right, Like people need to
be involved in parts planning that they're interested in, and
then you have to divide up the things that nobody's
interested in amongst yourself, and you have to try to
(33:24):
balance like the actual amount of work. Right if if
like he's interested in like sitting in a chair and
watching TV. Then that doesn't work out for you. UM.
But the other there's sort of interesting thing that comes
up is because women are so conditioned to think about
weddings that often women are kind of a couple of
(33:44):
steps ahead on the progressive scale with weddings, where by
the time you get married, you know, you're engaged, you've
already moved past like I'm going to have a big
white you know, expensive whatever wet, and you've moved on
to like I'm going to have a feminist, alternative wedding. UM.
(34:06):
And your partner maybe has never thought about any of that,
because the amount of time they've spent thinking about weddings
is like ten minutes once UM, And so they're like,
I just whatever, I'm just signed up for this thing
I see on TV. UM. So we've seen that as
a point of conflict a lot, where the rooms still
want something really traditional and um, the bride again speaking
(34:27):
in hetero terms here, the bride um wants something less traditional.
And I just think it it has to do with
the amount of time that we have thought about it
over the course of our lives. So I'm really interested
in hearing what the top wedding etiquette and planning questions
and conundrums are that you feeled at a practical wedding,
like what are the things that people are dying to know?
(34:50):
Most often, well, the least common question is what do
I do about my friend who is making me buy address?
I saw that, Oh my gosh, and we researched it, right,
because when people sending questions, we usually do our due
diligence and research like who they are and make sure
that like this is a legit thing. Um, we don't
(35:12):
publish their names, right, but like we do our like
due diligence, fine disease, We're like, no, I think this
is for real, So that's not super common. But um,
I think that our most common question is some variation
of do I have to pay attention to this opinion
(35:34):
of X person that I love? Um? And the answer
is right, like only you know for sure, grasshopper, but
probably um. Not that you have to like do everything
that everyone you love wants, but you can't. Probably just
flow them off. UM. And we've started getting letters in
(35:58):
the past a year or so from mothers as the
site's sort of gotten a lot more well known. I
think UM and I have to say that they are
the most heartbreaking letters that we get. Um, they're just
oh God, Like I've cried when I've gotten them, especially
as a mom um, where it's just like I don't
(36:20):
understand and they won't tell me anything. And I just
asked about this one question and they called me invasive
and I've been crying for like three weeks. But I
definitely don't want them to know that I've been crying
for three weeks and can you help explain what's going on? Um? So,
you know, parents and loved ones get cast in this
(36:41):
sort of like bad guy role and the truth is
that you know, depends on your family relationship obviously, but
like if you have a good family relationship, your parents
have probably been thinking about your wedding a lot longer
than you have, or you know, even if it's not
your wedding specifically, like you're changing your kids diapers and
you're thinking about like I hope they have a happy life.
(37:03):
I hope they end up with a good partner. Um,
So do then have the to totally cut them out? Um?
I think is really painful for people. So I'm sure
that many times, UM, people playing their weddings who are
kind of losing their minds and like at that emotional
breaking point because it can get very emotional. Who come
(37:25):
to you and say, oh, this is awful. I don't
know what to do. What is your go to advice
to to calm calm, to cook, to calm nervous um
soon to be brides and grooms. Uh, you know, it's
it's hard because like people tell you things like, well,
at the end of the day, you'll be married, and
(37:45):
that is helpful, like the day before, right like that
it's really legitimately good advice the day before. Um, but
people were saying that to me two months out when
I was saying things like, uh, I we need to
figure out a way to get the alcohol up to
the picnic site, and people would be like, at the
end of the day, you'll be married, And I was
(38:05):
like that, I mean that you're definitely not gonna let
us use your car then, right, like that was not
a question I was asking you, Um, so I don't
know at the end of the day you will be married.
But um, I think it's important to remember that. It
(38:28):
feels really symbolic, but your wedding really is just this
party to celebrate something that you already have and that
you will continue to deepen over many years. And you know,
if things go wrong, it really doesn't matter in in
the scope of your wife. So it may matter in
the scope of this year or this month, but in
(38:49):
the scope of your life, you'll look back and be like, well,
that's a hilarious story. Hopefully. My mom jokes that every
wedding is supposed to have a story. Um, and we're
at a wedding on where the DJ started. He was
narrating everything that I did. She is now greeting table
twelve like all night long, and my mom goes, well,
(39:13):
at least she has her story now and a narrator, right,
DJ is I feel like it's like massive opportunity for
awkwardness with some of those DJs out there. So thank
(39:33):
you so much to Meg Keen, creator of a Practical
Wedding dot com And listeners. If you enjoyed hearing from Meg,
that's not all. There's more in the next episode. We're
going to talk about what happens after you get married
with a feminist marriage and being a feminist wife. There's
(39:55):
a lot more to learn. Yeah, and listeners, I can
promise you that even even I as an unengaged unmarried
lady found our conversation with Meg fascinating, so stay tuned,
and in the meantime, we want to hear from you,
dear listeners, about your wedding planning issues. Have you ever
felt any conflict between your feminist ideology and the prospect
(40:19):
of being engaged, of getting married and all of the
money and all of the expectations, Because listen, I've been there,
I am there, actually, so commiserate with me. Mom Stuff
at how stuff works dot Com is our email address.
You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or
messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages
(40:39):
to share with you right now. So I've gotta let
her hear about our two parter on the history of abortion.
And this is from someone who would like to remain anonymous,
and she wrote, I love this show and was so
excited to see all talking about abortion. I was really
dismayed though, when you open episode with no one is
(41:01):
really pro abortion. That's not true, and it plays into
the weird language that gets used around abortion but not
other types of healthcare. To crib from the sentiment expressed
in the Salon article below, I'm pro abortion just like
I'm pro knee surgery. I think people should get the
medical care that they need, and I think that there
should be health care professionals who are trained to provide
(41:22):
it and facilities where it can be access safely and
without harassment. I understand that what you were saying is,
wouldn't it be great if the need for abortion went away?
But the fact is that pregnancy is complicated, and so
are the lives of people who can get pregnant. Abortion
will always be needed by someone somewhere, and again, we
just don't talk about other medical procedures this way. I
suppose it would be great if the need for heart
(41:43):
surgery went away, but I never dream of saying no
one as pro heart surgery. Again, I'm a huge fan.
I spread the Sminty Gospel whenever I get the chance,
and I'm really glad you're talking about this important topic
and listeners. I didn't want to note that I responded
to this email to clarify and also, you know, say,
I totally get what uh this listener meant by that,
(42:07):
and just to clarify what I had meant by known
as really pro abortion more thinking about the mechanics of
abortion as a surgery, as a counter to the hyper
conservative perception that pro choice women are just running out
to get an abortion every chance they can because we
(42:29):
just love this particular procedure so much. But this language
when we talk about abortion, obviously, is really important to
pay attention to. So thank you to this listener for
highlighting that I have a letter here from Ali, As
she says, thank you so much for all the work
that you do for Sminty. I started listening to your
podcast about six months ago, and it's helped me to
articulate my thoughts on the gender disparities I've noticed, but
(42:51):
I've never really known how to discuss. I love listening
to you talk about complex issues in such a straightforward,
accessible and fun way. Listening to you both from minds
me of conversations I have with my friends, and I
really look forward to Mondays and Wednesdays when the new
podcast are released. I never thought about writing to you
until your History of Abortion episode came out. I'm a
technology consultant at a large firm in d C. It's
(43:13):
my promotion year and my firm has an upper out policy. Basically,
if I don't get promoted this year, I should start
looking for a new job. As a woman in technology.
I'm very mindful of how people perceived me, so imagine
how I felt when I found out that I was
pregnant in November by my boyfriend of two years. While
we love each other and hope to get married one day,
we both agreed that this was not the right time
for a baby. I'm working crazy hours trying to get promoted,
(43:36):
and he travels three times a month for his job.
A baby would have completely derailed our lives. So I
made the extremely difficult choice to get an abortion. I
did it for all of the right reasons, yet I
still feel like there's a void in my heart. My
abortion was not an easy decision, but it was a
decision that I made for myself and my future family.
I really appreciate that you started the podcast with the
(43:56):
statement we support the right to choose women who use abortion.
Faced so much hostility that it's refreshing to hear a
compassion in turn into the conversation. Again, thank you so
much for all that you do. Your podcast have become
a staple in my life. Please keep up the good
work and continue to approach your subjects with respect and compassion.
Thank you, Ali, and thanks to everybody who's written into us.
(44:18):
Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our
email address and for links all of our social media
as well as all of our videos, blogs and podcasts
with our sources. So you can learn more about Meg
Keene in a practical wedding, head on over to stuff
mom Never Told You dot com for more on this
(44:39):
and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works
dot com
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