Bonus Interview: Women in Tabletop Gaming

In this bonus interview, we continue the conversation around women in tabletop game development with Heather O'Neill and Heather Wilson of 9th Level Games.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff I've
never told you. Today, we have a bonus interview for you,
continuing our conversation around women in tabletop games in the

(00:28):
world of tabletop game development. We recorded it a little
while ago, so this is like a collision of Past
Annie and President Annie. I hope it doesn't mess with
the spacetime continuum. But let's jump right in to the
past and to the interview. So we're here today to
talk more about women in tabletop gaming and specifically developers

(00:53):
in tabletop gaming. And we're here with not one but
two Heathers. Hello, there's Can you introduce yourselves and tell
us a little bit about what you what you do. Sure,
I'm Heterodeal CEO of Ninth Level Games, which sounds work
for what it is, but but yeah, I'm a game

(01:14):
designer and also do a lot of the bigness end
of the work for our publishing company. And I am
Heather Wilson. I am c o O of Ninth Level Games,
and I do some design work, um and I also
do a lot of editing, and um I did to
write our contracts, which some people find very boring but

(01:36):
I found very exciting. Oh, I have so into contracts.
I actually will. I will dive into why it is
that at Universal Orlando you can go to like Spider
Man and the Hulk, even though Disney owns them, but
you can't in California. It's all about contracts. So I

(02:02):
am like on board with you with how interesting that is. UM,
and you both have been involved in developing some games,
some pretty rad games, some games that I'm a fan of. UM,
would you mind talking about some of the ones that
some of the games that you have developed. Sure? Obviously,

(02:24):
I think that the one that is probably our collaboration,
which was shorting your text, came out in early two
dozen sixteen, after a successful kickstarter in late fifteen, or
it's a really sixteen, Um, it's for so many years now.
But it was really funny because up until that point,

(02:44):
I think at all about this other. But for me,
I I didn't think I would make a game. I
did a lot of like now, body as off me,
let me tell you what I think is good, let
me do this, let me protest it. But I didn't
think I would make a game. And then we kind
of had this calm that in the I to work
as well, I think we could probably be, you know,
and then our other partner of Clip who's my husband,

(03:07):
who was already doing from RPP design, was like, yeah,
let's do it, right Heather, Yeah, I mean that's pretty
much exactly it. Like, we were playing sort of a
prototype of Shortinger's Chats and we thought it'd be fun
to just put it out there. And it really changed
the direction of the company when we did that, because

(03:29):
you know, before that, we had really only put out
role playing games, and so to find this card game
that we were super into and be like, yeah, let's
give this a shot, and then it did really well
on Kickstarter and it continues to sell really well, and
so it allowed us to sort of feel like we
had the freedom to make more games that we wanted

(03:53):
to make, and so that's what we've been doing and
having a really good time doing it. So it sounds
like a and neither of you ever expected you would
get into this, because my next question was going to be,
did you ever think that you would be in the
development process of tabletop gaming? You have a view might

(04:15):
have I definitely did not even consider until probably around
two thousand thirteen, never even thought about it. I definitely.
Like I had had some thoughts about it. I'd gone
to some conventions and people were like, making games easy,
You should just make a game. Now. First of all,
that's not true. Making this is not easy, but they

(04:35):
were right in that, you know, it was a lot
of fun and I love making stuff like Heather kind
of test to what my office looks like. It's just
like an exclusion of crafts materials and books and papers,
and it just hadn't occurred to me. But now that
I'm doing it, it's all that I want to do.

(04:57):
Like I've always when I was a kid, I'm like,
I'm gonna be a writer when I grow up. And
I realized that I don't want to tell specific stories.
What I want to do is help other people tell stories.
And that makes me like really happy and excited. Yeah, yeah,
I love that. UM. As someone who is a big

(05:17):
tabletop gaming fan and recently into your Dungeons and Dragons,
I do think it is a very fun and beneficial
way for people to to tell stories. And I would
love if you could both speak to what does the

(05:38):
process entail, like what goes into making a game. This
is gonna be a long point. There's gonna be a
long answer. Good. Um, yeah, because it's not. I don't
feel that it's freight forward for every game. It's not
step one, room fifteen, and you have big your game's
always done. Um of some milestone points I would say

(06:02):
that you can touch on, but I feel like they're
all different depending on the level of games. Also, we
might be used to this situation, but we have I
would say, three key plock lines, one of which is
RPG products, one of which is organ card games, and
one of which is as we call other strainness. It's
just weird stuff that we just want to put out. So, um,

(06:24):
each one of them has a different life cycle. I
was just gonna say real quick, with the three things
I'm thinking of it, you know idea. Look that's perfectly
for you know, one to one month to six years.
So everything that ends up taking start with an initial
design concept, get a rough discussion going about that, play

(06:47):
test its possibly start getting some you know, concrete ideas
written down, get some art, real lay testing, go from there.
That would probably be the main line, but it never
goes liar. Yeah, whether we we tend to go back

(07:08):
and forth. So we'll we'll start with an idea, and
sometimes that idea immediately leads to prototype. Sometimes it takes
more back and forth, and then we'll we'll do a
lot of testing. Normally in our like in all of
our product lines, we talked to each other before we
put games in front of anyone else. But then after

(07:33):
we've sort of like all three of us have looked
at it and gotten a feel for what we want
to do, we will bring games to conventions, um will
play them with our friends and UM something we've done
in the past and we're going to move back into
in the next coming years is will get a game

(07:53):
to a point where it feels pretty good, but it's
not quite ready to, you know, put in stores, and
we'll make Ashcan versions and we'll sell those at conventions
and online so that people who are fans of what
we do can can play that game early, they can

(08:16):
sort of offer us feedback. And a lot of times
when we're doing in Hashtan edition, UM is because we
haven't quite nailed down either the aesthetic that we want
or there's something we think is missing in the design,
but we know the game is already fun, so we
want to sort of get it out there into the
market and see what people think. UM, And then with

(08:39):
our RPGs, UM, we are just now moving into a
whole new system that Chris has designed, and we're really
really excited to get those out the door because it's
something like the system, something he's been working on for years,
and UM one of the titles will come out initially

(09:01):
with that system. The Excellence is something I've been working
on for a couple of years. So it takes a while,
but the more games we make, the faster the process is.
Right and as you could probably imagine, UM, role playing games,
the lead up is so much longer than than a

(09:22):
carter board game. That's longer in the playtesting and the
development by but just getting the core concept sound if
you can be able to get it to a playable
point right takes longer for role playing. So I would
say most of the role playing products are somewhere between
probably two to four years so we actually get them

(09:42):
out there. We did as a kind of an expected
one last year called The Try the Middle School, which
is an anthology of RPG storytelling and archetype game that
we had how many designers fifteen other designers I think
it was, Yeah, Yeah, it's like fifteen sixteen, So luckily

(10:03):
we didn't have to design them all, but we did
a good number of them to collaborate with people, which
is a lot of a lot of people to coordinate
and other Is that very well? Um? But that even
that for being us years to come the solution from
idea to published and now it's like out for sale,

(10:24):
you know. So yeah, yeah, it was really fast for us. Um.
I'm going to assume that both of you are players
of table of Talk games. Yes, yes, m hm. How
did you get into it? Well? I always like your
traditional board games, right, you know, card games, that kind

(10:47):
of stuff in the games and things like that. And
some of my friends when I was maybe like eighth
ninth grade, we're getting at magic and they told me
about it, and I was like, I wanted to get that,
so I kind of just kind of put su the
side and they didn't care it was a fourth person,
so I think I didn't really care about it. But
then as I got a little bit older, I actually

(11:08):
met Chris when I was about eight teams and his
whole family played games and my family didn do that.
So I was like, oh, what's this that's breaking out?
You know, risk could I breaking out, you know if
even if it was just m you know, cards or something,
it's I just was craving that to do this is
so much fun with this, And that was right around

(11:29):
I don't think it was definite when that was Katon
came out and dressed, but it was a little bit
after that. So that was my gateway game. It kept
me so um that I started playing that kind of thing,
and I really wasn't in the role playing or anything
at all. And I would say I'd probably only been

(11:50):
whole into storytelling and that kind of thing for them
maybe the past five or those years. I'm definitely more
an analytical place to speak a person or the board games.
But Heather meant his all this earlier, and I just
want to tuch on this real quick before we forget
about it. Um. You were saying your creativity, you just
want to make games, and I'm fine that with myself too.

(12:11):
The things I used to want to do, like do
a craft or watch a movie or read a book
with almost what's the game? Now that's like, it's just
something else so fun, And I didn't realize that I,
you know, whenever fifteen or sixteen or you know, a
little kid like whatever. You know, they're fun. But when
I got older and we got into it, oh yeah,
this is what I wanted to GI. Yeah. So for me,

(12:35):
I have grown up around games, like I remember my
grandfather and my uncle playing D and D together when
I was in first grade, and when I would stay
with my dad, we would always play games together, like
he would play Mastermind with me, and I have to say,
I really appreciate the fact that, like he would play

(12:55):
that game over and over with a small child, so
pop of but I you know, I sort of fell
away from it as I got into middle school and
high school. And then when I was in college, I
was just looking for something to do and there was
this Lord of the Rings card game. I was like,
I'll try that, and then I tried the Magic card

(13:17):
game and I was like, oh okay, and it just
sort of went from there. And after college, I ended
up working in a comic book in gaming store in Connecticut,
and through that I started larning and doing more tabletop
stuff and starting to go to conventions, and so it
all just sort of snowballed into doing this. Now, can

(13:43):
I ask um? Going off of that, I read a
lot of accounts of people of women specifically, who would
go into gaming stories of comic with stories and would
kind of be asked, oh, your boyfriend likes these games,
assuming that there they couldn't possibly be there because they

(14:05):
wanted to be there. If if you were working in
this complic store, did you ever experienced something like that
on on the other side of like people coming in
and assuming you didn't know what you were talking about.
You know, strangely I didn't like I as I look
back on it now, I had a very unique experience

(14:27):
because the store at the time I worked for it
was owned by two dudes, one who had owned it
by himself and then UM ended up looking for a
business partner, and one of his partners was actually a
full time nurse. UM, so that nurse came in and
sort of like, I think he's the one who made

(14:48):
it a bit more welcoming. But you know, I walked
in the door, and from the first I felt really
at home there. And then as I was behind the counter,
generally mo people took what I said at face value.
I think maybe there were one or two times where
someone asked me a comic book question and just kind

(15:09):
of like dismissed my answer. But other than that, it
was just a shockingly supportive environment and um, I had
a great time working there. Yeah. The other A want
of piggyback on this on your question because as an
actual girlfriend as a gamer in my low twenties, Okay, Um,

(15:31):
everybody assumed, especially when if we were to a game store,
what a really people were like, what wow, why they're
a girl? Even in the school store, like that would
happen every time we went into a game store, magic toornament,
anything like that. But if we ever were talking about
games or a convention or at a game store, nobody
assumed that I would know anything about it, right, They

(15:53):
would assume I was just digging along. Um. Luckily, I've
kind of always been a one of the boys out
of forty kind of person, So I was just going
to work, go right back at you like, actually, no,
it's just the whole thing. But it definitely happened, and
that was kind of my first experiences with it, and
then I wasn't until I want to say, yeah, about

(16:15):
ten years ago maybe an eight was my first convention
that I ever went to, So I didn't actually little
convention until it already deal with a lot of those
situations and you know, surprisingly, what's funnier. I was about
the comment on this content is I think you're experience
the game store like that's like the best experience, and

(16:37):
then you look at something that's two thousand eighteen, and
some of these experiences in two thousand eighteen have not
been so good, and it's like what is a second? Yeah?
What the heck? Yeah? Yeah, like why why are we reverting?
You know? Yeah? By now it's crazy. We've been going
to convention. Well I've been doing on my osense, so

(16:58):
and I but we've been going at levels about thousand
and thirteen, including how they're I mean that's about when
we got involved. Um. And then obviously you have a hum,
we're probably going before two thousand and nine on your own. Yeah,
it's a consumer, but I would say from on, you know,
you're playing the game, you're working at boos, you're running

(17:19):
an event, those kind of things, you're having a meeting
or something, um. Not all the time. Back then would
everything be oh, great, we totally you're a game designer. Awesome.
It wouldn't be like that. But I feel like likes
just gotten really big on last five years, and there
are a lot of people, a lot more people involved.
And I don't know if some of these guys are

(17:40):
like you taking my hobby away, because it feels like that,
but I feel like you're there a little more of
a threatening vibe. Threatened vibe I mean from the gaming community.
Not everybody, but some of the established people where Just
this summer at the Origin, there were many events, including
things or Heather I had a talk afterwards, like what

(18:01):
do have to happen? You know, this guy's explained the
game around or this that my game great? You know.
Um this year especially, I I was surprised how um,
how different it was at some of the same conventions
maybe going through for a while. Yeah, I I super

(18:22):
agree with what Heather said, Like it's just weird. Like
four years I've been going to cons and I've rarely
had issues, and then this past year it's just been
like what is happening? Like suddenly there are people who
forget that, like it's not okay to touch strangers and
stuff like that, And I'm just so surprised. And every

(18:46):
time that I get into a situation like that, I'm
always surprised because I have this expectation of people in
the table top world, that they're gonna be nice and cool, unrespectful,
because that's what you know, the closest gamers around me are.
And so when I encounter that that situation where they're not,

(19:12):
it's not only is it frustrating because the situation is bad,
but it's frustrating because I expect better. Yeah, it's interesting
that you you say that I've never been to a
tabletop convention like gen Con or something, but I have been.
I've researched a lot about it for this episode, and um,

(19:35):
it's interesting that you say that it feels like it's
gotten worse. I was talking to Tracy on the previous
episode to this one about just playing tabletop games, and
we both discussed how we had this kind of internalized
misogyny that made us think that we weren't meant for

(19:59):
this world, like this was not our realm, and for
me specifically, like I remember the first time someone a guy,
was like, do you play D and D? And I
had a reaction that was like, oh no, no, and
now I play it and I love it. I love it,
but I it was just like a knee jerk, Oh

(20:20):
god no. Um, and I kind of see that. Yeah,
I guess I was kind of like that one because
when I first met my husband and his friends were
not only the tabletop gamers, but they were also a
role players and also a lot of the extended crew
was I was definitely like, I don't I didn't know
really what it was. But I also kind of like, okay,

(20:41):
this is where I draw the line. I did do
that back then, for sure, that definitely happened, and now
I'm kind of like, what are we doing? You know,
we're still in the plank. I'll try it, you know. Yeah.
I for me, it was very much I thought, and
I'm almost ashamed to admit it now, but I thought
it was too complicated to for me like there's too

(21:02):
much involved in D and D like I'm a nerd.
I was never like that student nerdy. It was that
is too complicated. And now that I've played it, I
it makes me angry that for so long I was
deterred from this thing that has been very beneficial and
helpful then like a social activity for me, because I

(21:24):
was intimidated by it. And to this day, even if
I've had a wonderful experience, like it sounds like the
both of you have in general had a good experience. Yeah, yeahfinitely,
so have I. But I still feel intimidated when I

(21:45):
see there's an event in town where they have um
every other Monday, they have like d NT and it's
one of those like, you know, an hour long here's
your character type thing and you show up with strangers,
and I'm afraid to do it because I'm afraid I
will encounter basically misogyny, right right, yeah, yeah, And I

(22:12):
thank you, you know, And the shame of it is,
and I know many people in the in this world
gaming world that have said this before. It's okay, we
gotta go out there. And you know a lot of
women have said, Okay, I'm gonna go out there. I'm
gonna have fun. You know. Unfortunately this bad thing happened
last time, but I'm gonna keep going back out there,

(22:33):
and they do. You know, the shame of it is,
you know, especially what you were saying, You're going to
go to a thing you've never gone to before, You're
gonna try something new, like that's scary enough, and then
the idea that you're going to go out and potentially
get these horror stories that you've heard about. I'm sure
enough the only person. That's probably come of people that
would go and do this, but they just won't because
of of the connotation and the shame of it. Is

(22:56):
same for for even board games, like you walk into
a or match tournament, you walk to do a room,
it's gonna be like eight five percent guys, maybe more,
you know what I mean. So you're gonna go in
there and it's gonna be a little bit intimidating probably,
which is sad. It shouldn't be. Um, there's individual people
might not be intimidating, but there is just this um

(23:18):
overarching intimidation, and I think that's why a lot of
movement designers and even UH players kind of have this
imposter syndrome. Was like, well, I'm not sure, I'm not.
That's like, no, now, you're just as good as these guys.
It's just there's only six of us and there's eight
hundreds of them, you know. So we've been dealing with

(23:40):
this a lot recently that wouldn't would you say, in
the last about five years, is just started kind of
coming to a head for a lot of players. Yeah, yeah,
I would think. So, yeah, I would say, I've got
to notice gating more and more as more women into
the gaming world. Especially we're seeing it any conventions and
things like that, not as much small, local, local thing.

(24:00):
So I mean, I'm happy to report that from when
we started doing this and now I see so many
more women out conventions and we're playing and having a
good time and running companies. So it's happening, and it's
sorely which surely getting there, right, It's it's gonna be
a long time for that connotation I think to go away, yeah,

(24:24):
And but I think it will get there. Like I
think that as more women get involved and as we
just talk about our involvement, that makes a huge difference
to the community, just like being sort of open about
the fact that like, yeah, I played d India every
week and you know, here's what I like about my character,
or you know, have you played this game and I

(24:47):
think you would like that. Like social media is a
great place to sort of make those connections and help
bring that about. And I think that for a while
people were just sort of letting the loudest voice in
the room be the one that was listened to. And

(25:11):
as we you know, as we deal with horrible stuff
in real life, I think more people are coming to
realize that, like, I don't have to let that happen.
I don't have to let the loudest voice in the
room be the only voice. Like if I like games,
I want to play games, I'm going to go into
those spaces. And it might be anxious about it, but
I belong just as much as anyone else. Anything that's

(25:32):
really valuable and important. Oh I agree. Um. We touched
on in our last episode. Playing tabletop games has measurable
physical and mental benefits. It's good for you, uh, and
it's not for everybody. I'm not saying like, uh, this

(25:54):
is a wonderful thing for everyone, but in general, and
this is a big point I tried to drive home
in my the last episode we did is I have
friends who for a long time told me they hated
playing board games and tabletop games. And there's so much
out there, and so eventually I convinced them, let's try

(26:17):
these other games. Because what they didn't like about them
was that they were competitive. But there are games where
you don't have to be competitive, or it's competitive in
a different way, or you're playing against the game itself
and instead of instead of playing against each other. Um.
And they have since come around and they love certain games.
I've introduced them to Dixit, especially, um they love dix It.

(26:44):
But the point being, there's so much room for creativity.
There's so many different games out there that I feel
like when we think of tabletop gaming, we're thinking of
like Clue, which is wonderful. I love Clue, but yeah,
you know, like those big games, but there's so much
out there, and they're so sartatistic and creative, and there's

(27:05):
so many different mechanisms out there. Yeah, and I do
think you know the one, uh, the one that isn't
the hurdle. It's starting now a little bit for game
designers that aren't making those huge epic you know six
our board games is you know, you're kind of in
competition with the board game get type crowd people that

(27:27):
are like that's that's a good game versus fix It,
which is a good game and it's a fun game. Um.
Or you know another late game that's out that's very
popular right now is Pdominant or petch work. For all
these games that are kind of late and ribasious, they're
done in less than thirty minutes. They're so good games.
They're the kind of games and bring out more often

(27:49):
because more people can play them, you can get them
done quicker. And that's the kind of games we make
to the later fun good mechanisms. But it's not going
to take you six hour to play, very like something
you could teach you fam remembers what your said. So
it's one of these things where I mean I sometimes
feel like the game I just made, I was like,

(28:09):
I don't know if this is like a good enough
game like that, and it's like it is. It's just
not gloom Haven level of complexity scan and it doesn't
need to be so um, you know. Struggling with that
hurdle is like the next thing I'm picking up. Before
we were like cooling met a game, and now we're like, okay,
we make games. We made a game a little different. Yeah, yeah,

(28:34):
And like I superget that, like because I too feel
like it's a game is going to if I need
to sit down at a board for an hour or longer,
I'm probably not going to be able to play that
game because I just it's too much energy and I'm
too much like, oh, I want to do a different thing,
but I'll play like five to ten shorter games all

(28:57):
in a row. Just because it's like get for and exciting,
and there's so much more out there now than they're
used to be for like someone who's, you know, a
more casual gamer, sort of like in between that like
heavier game or somebody who wants to play like, for example,
a zul is another game that's out now that casual

(29:18):
but has a lot of depths and doesn't require two
hours of sitting at a table. And I'm so excited
that the industry is growing that way because like there's
room for all of those games. There's room for your
like twelve hour war Hammered campaign that you're going to
play in one day, and there's room for like a

(29:41):
casual card game like The Key Dragon Society that you
just want to play because it's cute and there's not
a lot of dramatic tension there. We have some more
of our conversation, but first we have a quick break
for a word fromer sponsor. We're back, Thank you, sponsor.

(30:05):
Let's get back to the interview. It's been kind of
a recent thing for me to discover and I've been
loving it. Of all of the spectrum of games that
you can play, I know, like we kind of touch
on this, but I would love if you could give
a little bit of a bigger explanation of like why

(30:28):
what drew you too developing tabletop games? Why why do
that at all? Yeah, Like, and I touched on earlier,
there was this concept of you know, how can we
make sure your cap of game. It literally was a
conversation of what we're having and it take we grabbing
next cards and wrote some things attom right, and then um,

(30:52):
we were like, wait a second, this could actually happen,
and just rearing into the concept, we could like see
what it was going to be. Already we were coming
up with the names of thing we're ready to go.
So because that happened that could be don't want them done.
But going through that process at least for me, and
you know, let me know if you think the same
way was what that got done? It was like not

(31:13):
only was that super fulfilling, it was super fun and
it like practice, it is a creativity that some other
like solo craft and artworks and writing like wasn't doing
for me anyway. So a lot of the fun of
what we do, what I like to do is think
about like the concept and like how would you make
a game for that or think of a game concept,

(31:34):
our game mechanic, Like what kind of thing would that be?
To me, that's like a fun puzzle that I'm solving
all the time. So I don't know about you have that,
but that is that's what keeps me going with it.
I think that's really fun. Yeah, you learned to what
Heather said. I love the puzzle solving aspect of it.
I love coming up with a pun about an animal

(31:55):
and being like, Okay, now, how could I turn this
into a game? And another part of it for me
is that, um, I've been working in the video game
industry for my day job since about two thousand five,
and there's there's like a whole different conversation to be
had about video games. But one of the things that

(32:18):
draws me to tabletop is this very like social nature
of it. And one of the things that I get
really excited about is helping people have a particular experience.
Right Like, when I make a game, in the back
of my mind, I'm like, I want people to play this,

(32:39):
and I want them to feel happy about this aspect.
I want them to laugh at this, I want them
to feel a certain way, and I want them to
leave the table having just like felt fulfilled by what
they've done and so like that's part of it for me.
And then another part of it is like introducing ideas

(33:02):
and concepts because you can learn so much from games, right,
Like you can learn weird facts about the world that
you never knew. Um, it changes the way that your
brain thinks, Like you can learn more math. Just stuff
like that gets me really really excited. Yeah, I agree

(33:22):
with you on the I do kind of think about,
like what's the experience that they're having at the table.
I've had game concepts where I was like the way,
like this is the game, like you know, this is
definitely how the game is going to be, and then
how they're playing it is not how I wanted to
go back to the drawing board, you know that kind
of thing. So, I mean it's sometimes it's frustrating because

(33:43):
you have to go through a lot of levels of
this bubble slobbing. But I think that's kind of the
fun rewarding part about it is it was actually reminding
me of when you were saying that how there look,
you know, I was like a chef or something. Is
like pubs like so happy that they really enjoyed that meal. Right,
It's kind of what you get it right and you
feel like it was right, and then people enjoy what

(34:06):
you did the way you expected, but say you're like, yes,
that's what I'm looking for, right, And yeah, not that's
going to happen every week like that anything. It's going
to think a while to get these games out there
and get that experience. But you know, that's definitely what
it is for me. And from a mechanics design I

(34:26):
have that math mind, so you know, sometimes they go
overly crunch you with the numbers and then I have
to scale back. Other times, you know, Heather or I
will come up with the concept and one of level
run with that. So so it's fun also for collaborating
for me. Yeah, and I like one thing, I really
I want to say this out loud, the whole podcasting

(34:47):
world can hear it. Like I think that Heather is
our best designer, like she thinks in this perfect blend
of math and theme, And so for me, it's super
exciting to work on projects with her because like I

(35:09):
know that whatever she comes up with, it's gonna be great,
and like she might not like it initially and we
might want to make changes or whatever. But like as
soon as how they started working on Equal Party, which
is the game that she designed that will have out
later this year, I was just like, are you kidding me?
You're a genius. I'm sorry, excited remaking this game? Thank you?

(35:38):
What is that support system? Wow? I know, yeah, yeah,
I love it. I love women supporting women. Yes, it
is all going than too. But he had somebody like,
you know, um, one of these things where again, never
I never thought that that's something I was going to do,
but it just so just so happened that, you know,
after trying to the process of the first game, it's

(36:02):
oblidified it for us. So we're going to be going
into this year probably putting out two or three more
card games at Board Games and two or three more
arputs by the middle of next year. So we're definitely
ramping up. Yeah, it's just fine. We're really exciting. We
just this week we've had a conversation about a possible

(36:26):
new venue for getting our games out there. And like
every time that we have those conversations that we get
to that point, it's so exciting because like I can
feel the company growing and I can feel us growing
as designers and as publishers, and it just I don't know,
it just makes me happy. Yeah, yeah, you know. And

(36:49):
then they always say like do what you love, right,
It's like, well, it's like I don't even have to
working with us to do this. It's just something I'm
always thinking about, you know, or I don't mind working on.
So that's the good signs that we like it. Yeah,
letting a lot of our free guys doing it. You know.
I love the comparison to a good dish created by

(37:10):
a chef. That's wonderful. It wasn't until Heather the way
Heather was talking about it. I'm like, you know what
this is reminding me of how proud the chef is
when you know, when somebody play the game, but what
it is like that, And yeah, I mean that's the
keep to going. And I'm also I also think it's
really foreign playing someone else's game because're like, oh my god,
this is such a cool, like what's come over with

(37:32):
this concept? Because just because I let's thinking of a
million things doesn't mean we're not even touching the surface
of what everybody else is doing either, you know. So
it's really fun being the gaming community and get to
try these games before they come out by a bunch
of different designers, and you know, to the way they're thinking.
Like I also really like that. That's another angle that

(37:53):
I didn't expect to be involved with either, going to
all these industry events and things. So that's the Yeah. Yeah,
I uh my my minimal experience. I'm getting ready to
d M my first game for Dungeons and Drawings. Yeah,
And um, it's been fun because we have a career

(38:15):
that's been playing for like a year and a half now,
and we take turns d M NG and just knowing
like one person who d M is very good at
this one thing and how creative they were about this,
and someone else is really good at this other thing
and they were creative about this. Um, it's been really

(38:35):
rewarding and exciting to plan basically what sounds like a
plan that no one will follow. But speaking of playing
other people's games, do you both have any favorites or
any games that inspired you? Yeah? So for me, we

(38:57):
we have these friends Anthony and Nicole Lamato. There are
companies called Cardboard Fortress, and I'm always inspired by their
games because they're so unique and whenever they have a prototype.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I never would have thought
of that, Like that's just amazing. And another continual inspiration

(39:22):
and sort of a favorite for me is the very
old Palladium Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles role playing game. I yeah,
I must have won those books like a billion times,
like tried to run a game for my dad when
I was welved, and just for some reason, those books

(39:46):
like really stuck with me and like really inspire me
to World Belt. And then like as far as games
that I just want to play all the time, I'm
I always want to play Splendor, and I always want
to play this card game called Tempora, which is a
push your luck game where everybody is a cat and

(40:10):
you're trying to eat the most sushi without getting a
tummy egg. That is my life. Yeah, you know, it's funny.
One of the games. Like I guess that I'm not
really a huge role playing person. I didn't read the
RPG books when I was younger. I don't really read

(40:30):
them now. But one of the games that I always
always always want to play and that I'm super groundbreaking
for me to play with Fiasco, which is Jason Mornings
kind of story telling but like an intro RPG that
guide you by building relationships so that I'll play that
any day, And it really got me over the hump

(40:52):
of being nervous about while playing and story tampling and
makes me think about the way he sets his games
up about how to do that from an experience level,
you know, for for our games. So definitely that for
that perspective. And then I also love Splendor. But a
game that it totally still out, but it was called Bananza, yeah,

(41:14):
is a game where you plant beings in a field
to German game, so that's what it's called. Back the
stilly name. There's actually an interesting cart mechanics strategy, but
you also have to similarly to Settlers of the time,
you have to kind of yell out, hey, I can
give you get to negotiate and give people options the

(41:35):
wholes they're gonna be acuities, I can get the three,
or I can give you this at this And I
like that a lot. So that's something else that kind
of inspired me, Like that's a different kind of mechanics
and you're seeing by just moving pieces around the board.
So that was one of the first games that you
basically almost yelling at each other across to people. But
it's super fun. So that's another one that will always play.

(41:57):
And daughter was an interesting concept. Two. Piggyback on what
Heather said, I've actually stopped playing Bonanza because I am
not a competitive game player. Except for Bonanza. I will
just turn into a monster at the table. And and

(42:17):
Heather mentioned Jason morning Star, and the two of us
were lucky enough to play a prototype of his at
a convention this last ball and it was so exciting
because like man, he thinks in these really unique ways
and makes such fantastic games like oh and um, a

(42:39):
cute little anexcote is that you know, we're both named Heather,
and you know we're friends and we worked together and
we had not played Fiasco together. So a couple of
years ago at a convention, we were like, hey, let's
play Fiasco because a friend of ours had wrote a
Fiasco playset for being in a Wizard School. And completely separately,

(43:01):
we both named our characters be York without knowing that
the other one was doing Yeah, New York, just wizards
for other for Heather. And it's so funny because you
know we don't see it all the time. I mean,
were tough pretty often, but we were just like on

(43:22):
that mind all at that time. It was very funny.
But yeah, definitely that one if you haven't tried that,
that Fiasco game is a great intro if you if
you want to start role playing. Um, from experience, I
can put to that, there's like it's fun out there.
But that would say those are the the ones that
could stick out to me as like pivotal moments. For me,

(43:44):
it was Pandemic for sure. Okay, yeah, oh my god.
What is it that you like about Pandemic? I think
it's because, um, I could play it with two people,
and like I said, a lot of my friends are
I'm very I'm extremely competitive. I am so competitive. I

(44:09):
kind of have to like dial into a different persona
and when I'm playing with my non competitive friends because
I'll just turn them off of everything. Um. But they
liked Pandemic because we weren't competing against each other. We
were competing against the game, even if it was very difficult.
I think it was more like they didn't want to
create enemies. We played Life once and we'll never talk

(44:31):
about it again. Like it was inos it was infamous.
I'm like, you know, I didn't really win the lottery, right,
but people were mad. But Pandemic, Yeah, it was great,
Like we will not talk about it. I remember specifically

(44:53):
the people were arguing about kids, about jobs and it's
a game. Weel. Yeah, but I loved I love the
Pandemic because it allowed me to introduce friends of mine
who I hang out with a lot to a game
that they would actually play, and um, it was fun.

(45:15):
That's awesome. We have a little bit more left to discuss,
but first we have one more quick break forward from
our sponsor m H and we're back. Thank you, sponsor.
Let's get back to it. One thing that is not

(45:38):
awesome that I didn't want to talk about is, as
I'm sure both of you know, you're kind of a
rarity in the world of tabletop game development. I believe
it's less than ten percent. I think it's eight percent
of tabletop game developers are women. It sounds like both
of you have had a generally good experience, But have

(46:00):
you experienced sexism in this tailtop gaming world or other
obstacles that have gotten in your way? Yeah? I mean
I wouldn't say it's it's really really horrible or anything
like that, but I feel like, definitely there has been
some where, you know, especially before anybody knew my name

(46:22):
or our names, who was like, who the heck are
these people? How does their ticks started doing that good?
It's like whoa, whoa, whoa. If that was some dude,
wouldn't have paid anything about it, you know. So some
of some of that kind of stuff at the very beginning,
or more consumer people would say, oh you made this game,
like yeah, yeah, like maybe taken aback as you're actually
talking about it. They think, oh, you're a woman in

(46:44):
the booth. You're just here to sell the game to me.
You don't make the games. And that was that I
think changed a little bit because people maybe not but
I haven't noticed as many consumers doing it. But I've
definitely remember the first couple of years than be Shoka
that was like, oh you made this game. Yeah, there's

(47:05):
definitely I've I've experienced that as well, the surprise that like,
you know, I made the game. And then there's also
this happens to me a lot when I'm demoing, and
I tend to just let it go because it doesn't
feel worth the fight to me. But a lot of
times when I'm explaining how to play a game. If

(47:28):
the group is mixed or all dudes, they will jump
in and start explaining for me. And yeah, I find
that really frustrating. And I definitely have run into like
if I'm talking to, you know, a man who's developing games,

(47:50):
the thing that happens is like, I'll be really excited
about an idea, and every once in a while, like
the dudes in the industry that I talked to a
at it or like, oh yeah, that's okay, but what
if you did this instead? And that's kind of disappointing. Um,
And most of the time I don't listen to them,
which is good. Like, that's my advice. If someone saying

(48:14):
like things like that that are making you feel bad,
just stop listening to them. Yeah. And the thing I
could say, one of the things that's hard, there's two
levels of this. So there's the level where it's hum
that's really hard because I'm trying to sell a game
to you, Okay, so I don't just trying to demo
this game. If people look going until we buy our game, right,

(48:35):
and you don't want to start anything of these people
because you wanted to buy the game. But also where
that line where we where we say okay, like buddy,
you got a body, you know, but yeah, doing that,
it feels like you're thing not worth a fight in
that situation. I've seen more. I've had more things happen
in the industry that were either its completely looked over.

(49:00):
There's a to do designers for table and me at
the table and another gy comes up and like, doesn't
even be high to me because it's sambling on to
other people. That definitely happens, and just you know, some
nicer people or some you know, were aware people will
sometimes say something like what do you think, Heather, because

(49:20):
they could tell that the other two people are just
in their own world, is completely ignoring me, and we're
having a game design composition and they just as Tom,
I don't know anything about game design. That's definitely happened
a couple of times. And I think partly that there
is kind of this it's not really right, it's not
really their fault, but there's certain game designers that are
men in the industry that anything they touch is basically

(49:42):
goal through a bunch of people, and even other male
designers can't compete with them, and let alone a female
desider So sometimes I'm in a situation talking with them
and they're talking to me and everything is fine, But
if the other people around us that that either completely
ignore me, completely dismiss what I say, overstep when I'm talking,

(50:04):
talk right over me, and it's like whoa, he's also
So I've had a lot of those situations where if
I know that well enough, I like to say, like, whoa,
what the heck you know? But if I don't know
these people, or I'm in a weird situation, even and
I'm pretty competent person, I will still kind of feel like, Okay,
that was bad and I gotta get the situation. There's
been things like that from an industry perspective that I

(50:26):
that I did not like. Obviously, definitely the the idea
that Heather had where the content you're talking about, where
someone will just say, oh, I have this better idea
for what you're working on. I've definitely seen from testing
groups and different things. I learned one of the locations
of group club, the Gamemakers Gilles in Philadelphia. So Nicole,

(50:50):
who also was from here, she runs the one in Philadelphia.
I want to run the one in the Philadelphia suburb
and usually it's mostly all men. There might be another
woman that shows up in my group, and there's a
lot of gotta deal with their now. Because I run
it and because they're introduced to me right away as
the leader. I usually don't have too many problems, but

(51:13):
sometimes I do. And that's tough as well, where either
you know, getting a word and edge wise then taking
your opinion to heart and actually thinking you know what
you're talking about, that kind of stuff after they hear, oh,
oh you learn the game company, Oh you have a
couple of published games. Oh then they changed the KAM.
But if I came in and just started talking, I
think and they didn't know that, I think I'd even

(51:36):
get more pushed back. But sometimes I have to be like, well,
let me think of this game, and you know, this
one sells pretty well as far as the noble. They're like,
oh wait a second. You know, so all of a sudden,
I got spread because of that. But if I don't,
if I don't have that and I'm just another game
designer or just another woman with food feedback, it doesn't
have this to come back to them. They're probably discounting

(51:56):
everything that you just say, you know, which is annoying,
you know, and I don't know necessarily how to change that.
You can, yeah, I thank you have to start respecting women. Yeah,
well right, yeah, we've had a good experience. We're not,

(52:19):
you know, necessarily jaded by the industry. However, we still
have this kind of stuff happening to us, and we're
in a good situation, right, So take that to heart.
You know, this is the best option that you're probably
going to hear a story. You're going to hear from people,
so you know, yeah, I mean I don't because we're

(52:40):
talking game industry and there's a lot of men in
the game industry. This is coming up. But if you
just think about like just in general, like a business
world or you know, talking about whatever else we're talking about,
tech world, whatever, it's probably very similar. It's just so
happens that because we're talking about there, we're saying a

(53:01):
game industry. It's not not just game industry. You know,
then the women, but it's just so male dominated that
it's sometimes I think even on conscious that these guys
even come up with the concept that that we would
know what we're talking about them. They're they're innocent in
that I didn't know like, well you need to know,

(53:23):
so there some of that happened to Yeah, so I
think that's very true. I think a lot of it
is like people just not knowing any better, right, And
because I spend a lot of time on the Internet,
that allows me to learn a lot very quickly, but
not everybody does that. And so there's part of me

(53:46):
that's like, Okay, I'm gonna call things out when I
see them as much as I can. But I also
I also understand that sometimes people need a little time
to learn. M h. Yeah. But I mean I'll give
someone the benefit it out here and there. But we
definitely and I definitely have seen it happen where you know,

(54:07):
it's the same person, the same group of people. They
either don't want to learn, or they don't care, or
they literally can't get the concept. Heca Sometimes there's back
they've been told already. They either it goes right over
their heads, they don't even understand what we're talking about.
They choose not to listen, or they think they're listening

(54:29):
and helping it and really not a lot of that,
which that bothers me. Actually, sometimes more when someone tries to,
you know, be on a woman's side, and you can't
quite tell if it's real or not. Sometimes that is
they're so only board sometimes that I can't tell us

(54:49):
it's even real. But I'll take that over some of
the other stuff. I'll take that. But sometimes there is
some of that too that I don't know, we'll see. Yeah,
it's just so much because it's so social on like
video games and all of that. Like you're not just
doing all this on chats and tweets, which is horrible,
and people will say more because it's it's anonymous. But

(55:11):
this is stuff that they're saying to your face, and
even though it might not be as harsh as what
would be said on Twitter, they're still saying something to
you or about you, And even if it's only hence,
it's kind of what they would say on Twitter. It's
like there's somebody behind that, right, and sometimes the tone
even you can tell. So there's definitely that is where

(55:35):
I've noticed, and it probably is just the state of
the world. Definitely have noticed people speaking up a little
bit more on things and overstepping people a little bit
more in the last few years, being a little less
PC I would say convinced it's not all conventions, but
I have seen that a little bit popping up and
again trying to get that in the bud And we

(55:56):
haven't had too many horrible situations happen around us or anything,
but definitely witnessed it, seeing it and heard it on
it a lot last couple of years. Yeah, m hmm.
What other problems do you see, if any? And how
could we make tabletop games better for everyone? Big question? Sorry,

(56:21):
we're gonna solve all the problems. Yeah, we're going to
do it. But yeah, I think that right now, there's
a problem of pricing. Um. One of the things that
I see is like they'll be prices that will be
for a game on Kickstarter. There's the price that it

(56:41):
is in your friendly local game store, and then there's
the price that it is in Target. And if you're
a person who has started out buying your games in Target,
and then you're going to a game store or a convention,
and maybe you're a little surprised that the prices are higher.
And it's it's all a matter of scale, right, Like,

(57:03):
we can't as a small company take the risk of
printing enough copies that our cost is so low that
we can sell at lower costs. And I think there's
sort of um people don't always realize what they're getting
for their money, what they should be getting for their money,

(57:23):
and and also on the flip side, what they should
be charging. Um. As more people get into game design
and development, they don't know, they don't know what to
sell their games for, and they'll they'll print, like, you know,
two hundred page hardcover that they need to sell for
forty dollars and then it may not do as well.

(57:45):
And I think that that sort of there are so
many aspects to the problem. And I think the other
thing that we are missing as an industry is actionable data.
We don't have a central organizations that are gathering like
that pricing data and what it's manufacturing is costing, and

(58:07):
what is the demographic data depending on genre of game,
and that's all stuff that really empowers people to make
the correct choices for the games they want to make.
And if I could like change anything about the industry
that didn't have to do with sexism, it would be that, Yeah,

(58:29):
I would took back a little bit on this quickly.
On that is so many people consumers, I will say,
will look at a game the only look at the
size of the box that the pieces in the box,
and they'll say that's not worth forty dollars or only
twenty dollars. But maybe the box is really big, it's
all full of empty space in there, and it has cars,

(58:51):
but it's it's only twenty dollars. Whereas box that waller
that has from the pieces in it and it has
a long replayability life cycle for forty dollars, so they say, oh,
that's about that's forty bucks. I'm not saying forty bucks
for that. And there's just this perceived value. Marketing toys
has already mess this up for people's brains, all of

(59:13):
us when all that plastic packaging. I want to see
all the pieces. I want to know this box is
really big. I want this cool insert and they don't
really understand that. The only people that can do that
and keep that phrase low putting a hundred thousand copies, right, So, uh,
it is shame for people in the indie roles that
are making really good games. It's super hard to compete

(59:37):
at a high level, right, and you get your breakthroughs
and that's great, and then you usually start doing that
many so you can actually sell it cheaper. Um, But
there's there's definitely some of that where um, it's really
hard to to change people's perspective of perceived value. And
it doesn't help when the industry is all over the place,
because uh, we've said it's a couple of times. I

(01:00:00):
think christ might have come up with it, or maybe
somebody else came up with this concept which was gaining.
The industry is kind of like the Indian music industry,
right there's a hundred different genres and sub genres and
things that everybody has their favorite game and they're not
the same, and there's on many different labels. You can
also self published. You can play this little show and

(01:00:20):
you have a following and you're happy, or you need
to sell out stadiums, and it's it's very similar and
chaotic and also run very crazily like the industry of
the music, where there isn't really hard dad on what's
going to work because it's taste driven. So you've got
your taste driven sales that they're going to no matter
what it costs, and then you've got your perceived value people.

(01:00:43):
So that's something I don't know if what the lever change,
but I agree that that's tough in our market because
some people are who are new are coming into the
industry being oh, well, you know, exploding kidneys or whatever
my game needs, they can't even make enough money to
sell it for So then you see the shame. You

(01:01:05):
see people come out of the gate. They actually lose
money on their first kick Starter, they the fold as
a company. It's a shame because a lot of these
things happen the kind of the same. There's not really
data out there, and unfortunately it takes years and years
in time to find out about this speration. So while

(01:01:25):
it's great that we are growing as an interest and
bringing a lot of new designers, and I'm just worried
that so many of them are just gonna has such
a hard time. So yeah, that's an issue. Yeah, and
how much you can know about it, you know, I mean,
the only I wouldn't say far as you know, it
seems to me. The other thing we have talked about

(01:01:48):
a lot is representation just in general and games. And
I can't say the numbers because there is no data
on this, but I would say that probably in the
last five year of the say generically, there has been
an uptick when I'm looking at games I'm noticing, like, oh,
there's three female characters, or this game has a same

(01:02:10):
sex couple in this picture, or look, there's a person
of color over here. All of these different things not
where we need to be like, because I'm still noticing,
I'm three. Look, you know, you know, a good job.
You know, there's there's more of that being stolen. At
least people are starting to think about it. So maybe
in five more years, just because of second nature, hopefully,

(01:02:32):
you know. Yeah, a statistic I found that has been
reaffirmed by more than one steady is that you're more
likely to find a sheep on the cover art of
a tape top game as opposed to a woman. That's
that's steady, right. Yeah, And and sometimes some of those
some of the pictures of women that are on some

(01:02:53):
of these games are oh gosh, the pictures of women
that we do know you are totally correct, you know
what I mean, because sometimes because they're there, but it's
not in the way that they should be there. Um,
you know, one of the things we do. And you know,
I didn't think about this because it's so second nature.
And Heather Wilson was an advocate for this right off
the bats. Riding our cats, which are about cats are

(01:03:15):
not human people. But we made sure that we talked
about having at least female representation and they are based
off real female physicists, so you know, we did do that.
And then a lot of our games we're almost I
guess all of our games we've done that where we say, okay,
we need to have if we have a male designer
on that game, it's got to be a female artist

(01:03:36):
or vice versa. You know, we'll say like if we can,
we'll like to get both. If we can't, at least
one of those two major things is female. Yeah. Yes,
but we try very very hard to do that to
introduce diversity into the product itself and into the people

(01:03:57):
that we work lass. Yeah, because we can't instill diversity
in them. I mean, we try and make sure that
it's right exactly exactly, and you know, I I agree. Um,
you know, there's so many games. I still remember the story.
It was probably like a six or eight years ago.

(01:04:18):
A guy was bringing in the game and it was
of course like ton of adusn't quality game game, and
there was six characters and the game was fine. At
the end of the game, somebody said why do the
white dude, and he said, you know, you never even
knew if that. We're like, yep, I'm sure you never did.
So it's just this is one of these things that

(01:04:39):
sticks out that is hopefully changing as it gets pointed
out more and more and as people like you could
advocate for it and designers that want to do it right.
And there's more designers in the industry I think now
than there was a buck teen years ago that actively
want that in their game, so well, you know we're
working towards that. Yeah, that's great. I think as more

(01:05:02):
women are, like I am a great example because I
was someone who was so intimidated by this world, and
then as I've come into it, as I've seen other
women do it and talk about it, and seeing all
these games that I can play, I have become a
big advocate for it. I bought female friends in who
are now play games, so I think that's a big

(01:05:25):
piece of it. Do you have any useful advice for
women who are getting into tabletop games or who want to,
like um, either playing on the playing side or developing side.
You still advice as a loaded term. Do you have
any advice, take any advice let's stay on the plane. Yeah,

(01:05:45):
let me stay on the playing side, because I would
stay on the playing side. And I've also brought a
lot of friends in the gaming over the last two years,
and a lot of people who also, like your friends,
thought they would never play table top game. I would
say that if you are someone who's thinking about trying
paper cup game and your friends are asked me to
go do it, there's two things that you should think about.
First of all, go in non judgment because maybe it's

(01:06:09):
not as complex, so crazy or scary as he thought.
But also speak up about the kind of games you
did like after that game day, because what I'll find
is some people will really like the co op Pandemic
Tide games, and then they'll hate the Magic two players
combat game. And other people will say, you know, I
really like this card game where you have to make

(01:06:29):
all these decisions, and they'll they'll find another side of
themselves that I didn't even know it was there that's
being brought out by the game. And I'm somebody who
also I don't need to I like two games and games,
but I kind of like the feeling of the game
more than the feel of the game. So sometimes you
have to look pass back too. I've seen so many

(01:06:50):
people look at the game and go, you know, I
don't want to play that. If you didn't hear the roles,
we didn't try it yet, I bet you you're gonna
like it. I know there's a dragon on the cover,
but ignore the dragon and then it's gonna be young.
Or I know there's like a scary looking monsters not
actually scary. Sometimes, you know, we can't be go with
these game insolved a lot of times the mechanics. It
looks really fun, and then you'll find through that mechanic, Oh,

(01:07:12):
I like you with this? Are you're looking with this?
Or there's also these sixty other games probably right um,
which is fun. So I would suggest that it once
you do find anything that you can even remotely like,
tell your gamer friends but you like that, and they
could probably suggest a bunch of our games in that genre.
And on the design side, my advice would be find

(01:07:34):
some allies, quickly, find community, look around and see what
other women in the world are designing and developing games
and contact them, like, contact them via Twitter or Facebook
or wherever you find them, meet them at cons, and
and build yourself a community of allies who are going

(01:07:57):
to help you feel good about what you're doing and
help you remember why you wanted to make games, so
that at those times when you feel discouraged, you've got
some friends to back you up, you know. And like,
find people who are at the stage that you're at,
Find people who are newer than you, Find people who've

(01:08:21):
been doing it way longer than you, and and and
talk to them, pick their brains and and ask them
to be a support for you, and in turn support them. Like,
having women in the industry that I'm friends with has
made a huge difference for me. Like it it makes

(01:08:42):
me feel like, hey, I belong here to and look
so do all these other women. Yeah, and I would
say that's definitely true. There's a there's a very part
I would say painting it community, meaning that they're over
to talking to anyone and any woman that reaches out
of them, you know, or anyone actually this which is

(01:09:02):
a little bit good probably talked to. However, um, you know,
if you don't know how to go about doing this
any you go on to a game convention, you see,
oh I see some women at this boot you know,
did you guys make these games? I've literally had people
come up to me at Evetts and say, oh, is
this your company? And then I said yes, and then

(01:09:22):
they say, okay, well, I've just just because at making
game and I wanted to ask you the questions, and
then I'm giving them my card and pull them to
email me. We've had numerous people contect other people and
our other women designers or company owners in our group
via Twitter or something and say, hey, I just wanted
to ask you some of the advice. I didn't know
how to els to reach out to, but I knew

(01:09:43):
you did this game or knew you worked in this company,
and that's how it started. And now sometimes they're part
of our group. You know, it just so happened that
that's kind of how it is, because there isn't really
a resource, just one resource where you can find everybody.
So I think how the decis in this reaching out
is email or Twitter is better, uh that than a

(01:10:04):
person great, and they do more than most people will
be more than happy to walk through it and give
you Resially. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that
people who are passionate about something are more than happy
to help other people who are passionate about the same thing.
What about You've kind of touched this a little bit,

(01:10:28):
but to close out, what about the both of you,
do you have any projects on the horizon you're excited
about or any other things that you're excited about in
this tabletop realm um. Well, Heather Wilson has her first
role playing games coming out the spring to be The Excellence,

(01:10:49):
based off of the system that works creating this year
because that's exciting. And then I have my first solo
design for game come out in probably early summer called
Reeople Party, which is a co op game about a
party and they're all little meeples like from Carcophones, the
little guys and uh, they'll have different personalities and you

(01:11:12):
move them around that try to take khotos very non
violent theme, but it's co op and and I'm hoping
that that really resonates well with a woman audience. And
I think, how excellent shill as well, because you want
to go over with that. So The Excellence is a
role playing game in which you are a princess and

(01:11:34):
you're not the term princess is not gendered in this game.
You just you're a princess of a thing like you can't.
It can't be generally, you can't be like the Princess
of music, but it needs to be specific, like you're
the princess of sad country songs or something like that.
And each session is played like an adventure, like an

(01:11:55):
eighties or nineties cartoon, where you know you've got a
thing that you're trying to get, but really the goal
is just to be better friends. And it's a lot
of fun. And one thing that I'm excited that Heather
is working on is um a game that we've been
wanting to make for a while, which is Pavlov's Dogs,
and she ran through a number of design iterations and

(01:12:19):
it just kept getting better. So we're getting a lot
closer to getting it to the point where we'll think
about how we want to bring it to market. So
I'm excited about that. And I'm also excited about a
card game that I'm working on, which it was going
to be called Alpha Birds, but there's another game out
there called Alpha Birds, so we were calling we've tentatively

(01:12:44):
been calling it Numb to Plume, and I made a
little bit of a breakthrough with the design a few
months ago, and so I'm excited to move forward with
that and get it closer to uh, you know where
we would want people to be playing it. So I'm
just I'm excited about every thing we're doing. Oh I
am too, I want to play all these things. Yeah. Yeah.

(01:13:05):
We just got together last weekend and had like to
be like planning session for the years. So we're all
soaked up right now. Yeah, and we we came up
with some nice like like guidelines for for I mean,
it's something we've always done, right, Heather and I and
Chris have very much been in sync in the kinds

(01:13:27):
of games that we want to make without ever really
articulating it. So we sat down and we started to articulate, like, Okay, well,
how do we define the types of games we make?
And it was so cool because it was like, oh, yeah,
this is exactly what we've been doing all along, and
we just put some words to it. So it was
it was great. Oh I love it. I'm so excited

(01:13:52):
to see what the both of you do in the future.
M I'm a big fan. Like I said, so thank you.
I'm very excited and I'm so glad that that both
of you joined us for this episode. Um, where can
people find you? Well? They can find us on Twitter

(01:14:16):
and Instagram at ninth Level Games and that's nine the
numeral Um, and we're on Facebook as well, and then
personally you can find me on Twitter at Reindeer b
and then my my personal Twitter is at cat Businesses
and you can check out everything pretty much. We have

(01:14:40):
everything on our website that we're working through early right now,
so that's ninth Level, nine d level dot com and
we've got a couple of those things growing up. You
can get some concepts of what we're working on there. Awesome. Well,
thank you both so much for for doing this and
for doing it after hours. I know you have another job.
I appreciate a lot, and uh, like I said, I'm

(01:15:02):
a big fan, so this was exciting for me. Thank
you so much for has been awesome. Yeah, that brings
us to the end of this super special Bonus Interview episode.
Thanks again to both of the Heathers for joining us,
and thanks to Tracy V. Wilson for putting me in
touch with them. I really want to play some games now.

(01:15:25):
As you might have noticed, some things are changing here
at stuff I never told you since Bridget is moving
on to other projects and we all miss her. So much,
and I'm so excited for her and see what she
will do. We'll keep you posted on what she's up
to you and with any like you'll hear from her
again soon on this very show. We're working on some
cool things and making more new content and trying to

(01:15:46):
nail down the format and the voice, and I can't
wait to share that stuff with you. In the meantime,
I can't express enough how much I appreciate all of
you listeners and your support and your patients, And thanks
as always to our produced through Andrew Howard, and thank
you again for listening. H