Therapy: Part 1

Ever wondered what therapy is like? Sit in on a session.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, I'm Annie and welcome to Stuff. Mom never told
you a production of I Heart Radios How stuff works.
This episode is going to be a little different, listeners

(00:25):
different to the next two episodes are gonna be very different.
That is true, Um, and that is because Samantha and
I um are going to let you sit in on
our therapy sessions. Yeah, it's a We're going to be
a lot closer after I told you I'm gonna I'm

(00:47):
here to make friends, so you're gonna know all my
dart apparently, and I'm gonna know all your dart too. True.
It's true turn around his fair play. We're hoping it
will help destigmatize therapy a little, maybe make it a
little us intimidating for people who have thought about doing
it and for whatever reason, have it because being vulnerable
is scary, very scary. Yeah. When we were first discussing

(01:10):
this mini series on trauma, Samantha and I wanted to
dedicate an entire episode to therapy because it can be
so helpful in learning ways to cope with trauma. And instead, yes,
you're getting to one for me, one for Samantha, Yes, UM,
and mine is not super intense. I'll say, UM, and

(01:30):
you'll get some some tools for coping. Uh. Disclaimer right
at the top. We know that therapy is not accessible
for everyone unfortunately, and you know I've been there where
I wasn't wasn't able to do therapy myself. UM. Again,
you all know I'm a social work or that's been
kind of like my theme UM and with that, oftentimes
I could not afford it. But we did discuss with

(01:51):
I think we end the episode with the Kenyan Michelle
about the fact that a lot of work places there
is a program oftentimes that at least introduced you in
tow therapy, whether it's a few sessions like two or
three sessions that you can have, and it also counts
us your work schedule. I know from my job it
offers that because it is that intense UM and it's
an employee program. But sometimes, like mine, I remember my

(02:14):
therapist that I was trying to get to UM ended
up having full schedule. So things happen. But yeah, I
understand that it is really sometimes can be difficult. But
there are a lot of places out there, and I'm
hoping that we can get some more resources that offer
sliding scale fees, which is sometimes not even good enough.
And I actually try to research if there were any

(02:34):
program so that will actually fund UM therapy, because I
think that should be a thing, and I couldn't find one.
So if someone knows about that, please tell me, because
I would love to see that as a program. Yeah. UM,
certainly if you UM have a job or in any
university or in college or something, and maybe there might

(02:55):
be something available that you just haven't heard about. That
was the case for me when I was in college.
And before we get into this trigger warning for this episode,
sexual abuse, assault, eating disorders, substance abuse, suicidal ideation, and
mental illness. And if we look at some numbers here
in the United States, over forty four million adults have

(03:16):
a mental health condition. Though the number of people seeking
help and being covered by insurance has been increasing over
the years, over nine million people still report that their
needs go unmet, and there's a shortage of mental health
workers to meet that demand in some areas for patients
to one mental health worker. In the UK, in seventeen,
over one point four million people were referred to mental

(03:38):
health therapy and UM. There has been some interesting recent
research and conversation around the intersection of men masculinity and
mental health with negative outcomes like mass shootings and sexual
assaults and violence. The American Psychological Association are the a
p A has specific guidelines for treating women and girls,
gender nonconforming and l g B, t q I A

(04:00):
plus ethnic groups older folks, but not men and boys.
And this is concerning also in terms of the rate
of male suicide, which is three times that of the
rate of women. From the National Institute of Mental Health.
Men are more likely than women to use almost all
types of illicit drugs, and illicit drug use is more
likely to result in emergency department visits or overdose deaths

(04:22):
for men than women. There's more stigma, I would say,
around men seeking treatment for mental health um and therefore
they seek help less frequently. It's kind of like the
whole men up idea. If you're a true man, you
can handle this, you can internalize this, just deal with it. Yes, yeah, yeah,

(04:45):
we just we just did an example of the exacting.
So that's manliness, right, Yeah, that's all it is. There's
even a term for guys having difficulty expressing their emotion
sens normative male alexithymia. That's a big word. Yeah, yeah,

(05:06):
and yeah, that is the stereotype that don't and in
the stereotype of therapy is you're sitting on a couch
and you're crying, and so that is a direct way
crying is not bad. And as you will hear in
my session, yes, no, it happens. It does happen, and
sometimes it happens when you least expected. I've got to say, um, recently,

(05:29):
I was at lunch with some mostly male friends and
I mentioned that I was doing therapy, and everyone either
expressed interest in finding a therapist or they were already
in therapy as well. So which is right? Because I
think the more we talk about it and more we
dey stigmatize and make it an um common thing, the
better it is for us as individuals who can actually

(05:51):
get help and then able to help others. It's fantastic.
I love it. Keep going and there are a lot,
a lot, a lot of different types of therapy, group therapy,
family therapy, marriage counseling. Evidence backs up the effectiveness of
cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT, along with dialectical behavior therapy
and family based treatment, but despite that those are not

(06:12):
frequently used. One survey found only six of therapist used
CBT only part of the time or in combination with
something else to treat things like depression and anxiety and
just a personal experience. Many of the UH different programs
that I use to help our children will use CBT UM,
but oftentimes cannot use CBT on people who are lower

(06:33):
i Q and or like autism because obviously CBT is
very much thinking and processing and UM understanding your individual needs,
so oftentimes makes feel that this is not as effective
for those types of UM patients or individuals. Just to
put that out there, and despite being a huge proponent

(06:55):
of therapy UM and seeking help when you need it,
this is my first serious attempt at therapy. UH. Samantha
pushed me very strong to do it. I would say,
we just talked about all the things that we want
to talk about. You became a mom with me, and
I was like, yes, we're gonna do therapy together. Yes,

(07:17):
but we're not doing it together in sessions. But at
the same time, oh man, that would be interesting, would
be super It could be like a couple of stay yeah,
except we're not like fighting with each other. We're just
like the man we're fighting the Man's were together, right, UM,
I have gone to therapy before. I got turned in
twice when I was in college for depressive or worrying behavior,

(07:38):
which entailed going to a therapist both times, and the
first time, the dude essentially told me like, this is
just gonna stress you out more. I don't think you
should go. And I was like cool. And the second time, UM,
she the therapist was like, I am not qualified to
help you. You should see somebody else. And the third
time I went to my own accord at my mom's
very strong request, but of my own record, and I

(08:00):
was trying to explain some of my trauma to her
and I flipped out, flipped out, screaming and crying, and
it scared me and I never went back. Um, but
I knew that I could really benefit from therapy. And UM,
that brings me to one of the things I think
that scares people away from therapy apart from stigma, and
that's finding the right therapist. And that is so important.

(08:24):
And UM, just to throw that out there, you and
I when we were discussing the two types of therapists
for us, when I was looking, I was making sure
a that it was a trauma focused therapist who knew PTSD, UM,
who understood triggering, who understood sexual trauma, who understood abuse trauma,
because I think it's very very important. I did look
at their education level. I did look at the level

(08:46):
of years that they practiced. And for me, actually I
wanted a person who was a person of color because
I feel like, and the old hear a little bit
on my end, it's like, I need someone that identifies
UM with what I've experienced, because I don't. I'm struggling
with my own identity as a person of color. So

(09:07):
it just happened that this woman Dr Coleman, who you
I'm not your to talk about. I met all of
those and it was been for me. I don't know
about you, it's been fantastic, UM. But yeah, it's very
very important that you understand when you're seeking a therapist,
you have the lead, you know what you need or
you know what you think you need. You need to
make sure you have someone who can meet those needs. Yeah,

(09:31):
and there are bad ones out there. There are ones
that aren't for you. There are ones that aren't trained
to handle with what you're dealing with. UM. Some areas,
UH don't have any options. I'm from a small town.
I'm very familiar with that. Um. And one thing for me,
on top of all the stuff that you just said, Samantha,
I if it involves travel, I'm very unlikely to stick
with it. So UM, Dr Coleman, here's the therapist that

(09:54):
we found. She does it online right, very convenient for me.
I was gonna say she is licensed in Georgia, which
that's a reminder. Each state has different qualifications and licensure. Um,
she's licensed here. Don't think she's licensed in Vermont, Vermont
also Chicago. I don't know, I think anyway. But UM,
it's been nice for me to actually because I can
sit at home and have my dog in my lap

(10:15):
like and that's one of the most amazing moments. Do
have a pillow? You haven't seen me in my pillow pet?
I don't think I have. His name is Rudy or Ruby? Depending?
Is it just the pillow? Is it in the shape
of a pet? It's a it's a bee. Oh my goodness.
That's so many things I'm learning about. Yes, yes, please.

(10:38):
Another thing to consider when you're getting therapy is your goals,
and it's good to go over those really early with
your potential therapist. UM, because you don't want to go
into multiple sessions if you're not going to get what
you want out of it. UM. Talking things out as great,
but having stress management and coping tools is I would say,
the ideal. UM. And in your first session, this is

(10:59):
what should happen. This is probably what is going to happen.
It's a conversation around what it is you're dealing with,
what you hope to accomplish, and whether or not the
therapist you're speaking with is a good fit for helping
you reach those goals. And I'm gonna throw that out
this out there. There is timing as well. As you
talked about that you and that one time, and it
did not It was not time. The last time I

(11:19):
went to therapy was three years ago, and I was
so caught up in all of the trauma that was
happening in my work that it was a daily process
that it was shut me down. UM. And I knew
after a year and a half. By the way, my
therapist was awesome, she was great. It just wasn't right
timing or it wasn't going where I needed to and
I needed a break. So even though like it's great,

(11:40):
you should definitely see therapist. Therapists are great. There is
a thing in your own um body, I think, and
in your own mental mentalities is this time, am I
ready to deal with these things? Because the first thing
they should tell you, the first thing we're gonna tell you,
is they am hard. Like I'm gonna curse. It's faking
hard like there's nothing else to say. It's it hurts,
it's painful, It hurts, it resonates, and you start really

(12:04):
understanding why you are the way you are. And that
shock in itself, it can it can feel like it
shatters you. The good news is you go past it,
and the good news is someone is there with you,
which is therapy, which is fantastic. But again you have
to be not necessarily ready, but aware, yeah, and able

(12:24):
to take on that extra right. So we just want
to throw that out there, just because we're talking about
this and just because we want you to be hear
it from us. Not necessarily for any but for me.
This has been years and years and years of therapy.
This has been years and years and years of being
in my field. And again, like I said, in the
next episode, you'll hear more from me, but it's timing.
There is timing to it too, UM. And one thing

(12:49):
I found from the New York Times. UH. They they
had an article about UM finding a good therapist for you,
and some questions they listed that you should look at
is what you specialize in, what kind of training did
you do with whom? And what manuals do you use?
And there is manuals. There are things out there, and
I'm sure this is the world of the internet, so

(13:10):
I'm sure you can look it up too. But there
are specific methods, specific ideas, and specific books. So oftentimes
if people can't do therapy, there are some self help
books and the workbooks that you can use as well.
And one thing before we we finally get into this
this session UM with me, UM, Samantha and I signed

(13:31):
a release saying we agreed to release the confidentiality of
these sessions. We did all the legal things. We protected
our confidentiality while recording and editing. We set boundaries and
discussed what we would and wouldn't talk about, UM that
would be healthy for us when when you're thinking in
the context of other people here right, what we wanting

(13:54):
people to hear exactly, And we sent the file for
review before we published again. Legal UM to our to
our therapist, and unless you are a podcast host during
an episode on therapy, your sessions are completely legally confidential
unless you wait fair right and the only reason anything
would ever be reported if you are at risk to

(14:16):
yourself or someone else or if there's some type of abuse.
So it is very confidential. Even at the point that
I think, I'm sure you did too, Dr Coleman, and
I said, and she was like, are you sure? And
we talked about it in like three different sessions about
what this looks like, how do we make sure we
are protected, You are protected, they and Dr Coleman is
protected because this is a very serious thing, hippa. Yeah,

(14:37):
we know it's a big part of law in them
your um animity and your rights essentially your private rights,
and it still does exist. So we agree fully and
we'll say that on there to allow this to happen,
because we think it's important that you hear what it
can be and not necessarily what it is for you.
But it's not as intense sometimes as you think. Yes,

(14:59):
so just keep that in mind that we didn't do
this lightly and this is and this is a six
month long discussion. I'm actually going here and even doing
it before, we were still like, oh my god, yeah,
this is happening. Yeah, and we did several sessions like
before we even got so that I think, Um, and
you're not talking about this. I thought is very important

(15:21):
that we set up the beginning because it takes a
little while to build trust in relationships with people, and
your relationship with therapist is important and it is a relationship.
So all of that aside. We're going to take a
quick break, but when we get back, we're gonna hop
right into the session with clinical psychologist Dr Marissa Coleman.

(15:47):
M HM, Hello, I hey, oh, how are how are
you feeling? I'm good, I'm good. How about you? I'm
pretty good. Yeah. I'm aware also of you being in

(16:07):
a a new space during our time together and how
it's a space that's associated with work and with other
topics and things, and curious how that's feeling for you now.
It is change. I feel I almost feel like I'm
having an out of body experience. Um. It's it's not

(16:32):
unlike because the show that that we're doing this for
I often um combine things that are very personal with work. UM,
so it's not a feeling that I'm necessarily unused to.
But it is something that I've experienced before when you're
like being very personal and very like yourself, but it

(16:55):
is it is your job. UM. It's an interesting inner section. Yeah,
that's what I was thinking of, just you know, overlap
of different parts of yourself but also different worlds. UM.
And so we'll just keep that in our minds and
in the space as we meet today per usual, Like

(17:20):
I usually ask if there's anything that's been on your
heart or your mind that you want to prioritize in
our time together, UM, feel free to let me know. UM.
I don't think so. I one thing I have been
experiencing and UM, I believe we touched on this a
little bit. Uh the last time we talked is UM.

(17:45):
I just feel like now that I've started sharing this
with you with somebody that sometimes it just like comes
out like I'll just be talking to someone and I'll
be sharing something that I'm like, God, why am I
talking about this? UM? And it's never anything two. It's
nothing that I feel bad sharing. It's nothing very uncomfortable. UM.

(18:07):
But it's just bizarre because I catch myself like all
of a sudden saying something and thinking why in the
world's gonna need to share that with some UM. And
I don't know if that's UM, just because it's that
I've started talking about it for the first time, I
don't know. Mm hmm. Yeah, that actually makes a lot

(18:28):
of sense to me, just that your defenses are likely
slowly becoming deactivated in ways that UM, they had been
very activated in the past, and so those filters of UM,
like guardedness of needing to protect certain parts of yourself,

(18:49):
like they may be more relaxed UM. And just like
with anything, the more that you do something, the more
familiar it starts to feel. Mm hmm. I'm areous if
there's a specific example or a time recently where you
had that that you could share with me. Yeah. So

(19:13):
on Sunday, I was hanging out with some friends watching
Game of Thrones and I was saying, how a really
bad habit of UM drinking too much on Sundays and
it's because I always call my mom on Sundays UM,
and uh. People were like, well, why do you dread that,

(19:33):
And just without thinking about I was like, well, my
dad has terminal cancer and my mom is miserable, and
like that's been going on for years. I've kind of
accepted it, but I don't really talk about it that much,
And to just have offered it that information without even
thinking about it, it really surprised me. Um. And it

(19:54):
could have been that I had been drinking bline. Um. Yeah.
I afterwards, I was kind of like, oh, I cannot
take that back, can I? No, No, you cannot. But
I'm curious about the person that you shared that information with.

(20:15):
Are they somebody that's close to you in your life?
Do you feel, um, do you feel like a specific
I don't know, closeness or connectedness with that person. I do.
It's um, he's kind of a newer person in my life.
And that's another thing that I do love my job

(20:37):
so much, and I'm fortunate that I work with a
lot of people who am I like hanging out with
outside of work, and so it's kind of an odd
thing where we know each other even though he's he's
pretty new, just because we have to work together and
then we hang out outside of work. Um. And he's
also somebody who's just really like easy going. So he

(20:58):
didn't react like he wasn't like, oh my god, I'm
so sorry. You're just kind of like, oh, yeah, you know,
very even keel and I think for me personally, it's
easier to share stuff with people do I think, like,
I'm pretty sure I know they're what their reaction will be. UM.
But yeah, we're fairly we're good friends. Sure. M Hm.

(21:21):
How did you feel after you share that information about
your dad and your mom? Embarrassed? Mostly um, just because
I didn't mean to um. It has just kind of
been slipping out a lot. Um. But he was Yeah,

(21:42):
he didn't, he did nothing he did made me feel
embarrassed about it. UM, But I was just kind of
like I felt like I had lost control of what
I would like to to share. UM. And we're still
I mean, I'm hoping that I'm not misinterpreting that we're

(22:03):
pretty close random you know, like if if we've only known,
it's been less than a year, so UM. There are
people I've known years and years I've never told that too.
M Hm. You just said something that was interesting to me,
and I feel like connects back to some of the
themes of what we've been talking about in past sessions
around the sense of control and the security that comes

(22:25):
from feeling like you're in control of yourself and therefore
what you share with others than also keeping your relationship
and control um with the other person. UM. Maybe we
should talk a little bit more about other times in
your life that you have felt out of control. UM. Yeah,

(22:52):
there's there's a time in my life in particular which
I'm not even sure why I felt so out of control,
because looking at it from the outside, I think people
would have been like, wow, you're really disciplined. Um. But
there was a time in my life where, um, I

(23:15):
was just so overly scheduled. I always had something to
do and um, and then I would get home really late,
and then I would somehow find something else to do,
and I would I wouldn't sleep, and it just felt
like I was trapped in this cycle of um of

(23:40):
that I had created, like this cage I had created,
and it was stuff of my own, Like I was
deciding to do everything, do all of this stuff. But
at the same time it felt like I almost wasn't
like it was compulsive almost, or like I just had
to keep finding something because I didn't want to not
be busy. UM. And I remember just feeling so all

(24:03):
the time, like panicked and like I was barely holding
on to this schedule that I had created for myself.
What would happen if you are not busy? That's the thing.
I never let it, never let it happened. I would

(24:24):
sometimes I would even say, um to myself, you're going
home after work and you were going to relax and
take care of yourself whatever it is. And I would
go home and like ten minutes later, I would find
something like Nope, I'm going out. Um. And it was

(24:45):
frustrating because it did feel, even though these are purportedly
decisions I am making, it did feel like there was
some snap thing like nope. Making that decision for me
I was I was saying, you need to go home,
and then something else was thing, No, you did not
even do that. Yeah, that is interesting. And I'm also

(25:06):
wondering if part of what was at play and that
dynamic within yourself was also not wanting to be alone
mm hmm, about being with other people, but also having
control over who you chose who you were with. Yeah. Yeah,
And I think there was a an aspect of distraction

(25:31):
of if you're with other people and you don't have
to think about anything else than the conversation you're having
with those those people. And I think I was just
really looking for distraction, something to to keep me busy.

(25:54):
When you were with other people and you were talking
and hanging out, was the topic and conversation mostly on
the other person. Yeah, generally, UM, I do I like.
For a long time, I've I've liked to have been

(26:14):
known as the person who listens well, which is why
this has been really interesting for me. It's kind of
been my thing. I like to be the person who's
on the listening end. Um. A lot of the people
I hang out with are good though, and including me
in conversation, like recognizing that and being like come on,

(26:39):
kind of drawing you out. Yeah. There. There's there's something
perhaps about being the listener that allows you to hide
parts of yourself that you don't want to share. Yeah.
Does that? I mean you think that that fits with

(27:02):
your understanding of your of yourself. It feels safer for sure. UM.
And it also I think it ties back into some
of the stuff we've talked about about having UM low
self esteem mhm and feeling like I don't really have

(27:22):
anything to contribute UM to the conversation, or like the
other person is way more interesting than I could ever be. UM.
Things like that, do you still feel that way. I do.

(27:46):
I do, but it's one of another one of those
things where I rationally know that that's not true, but
I still feel that it's true, m Um, because I've
done some really inesting stuff and I know that I have. Yeah.

(28:06):
But then then if I talk about that, then I
feel like I'm bragging or something and I can't win.
M Yeah, a lot of a lot of self talk
that is likely reinforced by UM again, staying in control

(28:28):
and not sharing too much. I'm curious when you said
that you rationally know that people are interested in what
you have to say, and you've done some interesting things,
but it doesn't always feel that way. I'm wondering if,
like when you talk about that feeling, is there a
certain place even within your body where you get that feeling.

(28:54):
I feel that way about so many things. UM. I
just it's almost like I don't I don't trust myself
at all. Um. I Actually I've never really thought about
it this way, but UM. One of the reasons I
um overschedule everything is because I don't trust that I

(29:17):
will get things done. If I don't, I just have
like a really deep seated thought that I'm not going
to do what I said I'm going to do, or
I just I don't trust the lack of trusting in
myself and a lot of people. Um. Yeah, yeah, there's

(29:44):
a lot of things where I'm like, rationally, I know
this must be true, but I don't feel that it's true.
Mm hm ums. As far as you can remember, when
did that lack of trust in yourself begin? I think,

(30:13):
I mean going back as far as um the first
the first instance of abuse that we've talked about, I think, Um,
I remember after that hearing people say, like I remember

(30:35):
a particular instance where my grandmother, it's like four or five,
she told me that like, um, she really thought it
was so beautiful and she loved my hair, and I
completely panicked and I um had this like it's all
that she had made for me. I was holding it
and I was like twisting it so much all of

(30:55):
the beings spilled out on the floor. Um. Yeah. I
just even then, it was like, I don't trust what
people people are saying, and I didn't trust myself to
believe it because I know she's my grandmother, like and
I really we had a good relationship and I loved her. Um,

(31:19):
but yeah, I didn't I couldn't trust that m hm,
you couldn't trust that what she was saying was true,
or you couldn't trust that by her saying that or
about you being pretty would Um how do I how
do I phrase this? Because I think they're I want
to distinguish between two things that I'm hearing. One not

(31:41):
trusting something that somebody is telling you your grandmother. But
then also I wonder if there's an element of believing
that by you being pretty means that something bad will
happen or that you'll get hurt, like that being pretty
isn't what keeps you safe. Yeah, I think it's I

(32:02):
think it's both. I Um. I've said before I definitely
have like a a knee jerk panic reaction to compliments,
especially about anything to do with beauty or my body. UM.
But I do have this. It's like an undercurrent of

(32:23):
just not trusting that that could be true, Like all right,
when I look in the mirrors like a horrendous and
I know that that that can be true, Um, but

(32:43):
I can't trust that. At the same time, it's confusing, Yeah,
which abuses confusing, right, And a lot of what we're
talking about, UM is connected to the grooming that you
experienced at such a young age, and the idea of

(33:06):
being complimented about your looks as being a part of
the grooming process. So it makes a lot of sense
why one that could potentially be well, why it is
a trigger for you, um, but also why um kind
of the first seeds of distrust are really interwoven with
that compliment. Yeah, m hm, you just said something about how, um,

(33:36):
I know that it's true. Meaning reminds me if I'm
getting this wrong. Um, but you were you were saying
something and then you stopped yourself and you said, well,
I know, I know that that's true, whether you're talking
about if somebody compliments you or that, oh you were
saying that you look at in the mirror, you look

(33:58):
at yourself and you don't always like what you see. Yeah,
but that you recognize like there are like it has
to be true, like if people compliment you know, And
I'm curious about what what part of you knows that
that when people compliment you, there are redeemable and there
are great and positive things about yourself, Like how do
you know that? I think there's a part of me

(34:24):
that has to believe, um that when people that I
do have been with me for for years and years
and years, and are there is no ulterior motive of
honestly sex um are being related to me UM like
your mother is not gonna, hopefully mid most cases isn't

(34:46):
going to tell you that you're ugly. But like UM,
friends and people that I just believe that they wouldn't.
They might be kind and be nice with their words,
but I think that I have to believe that since

(35:08):
really for friends, that they're being truthful. Mhm um. And
I am because I do this this show, and I've
done a lot of research around you know, self esteem
and body image, and I know the facts around it,

(35:28):
and I'm a very like rational, fact based person, which
is why I think I have this this cognitive dissonance
between UM. What I know must be true, but what
I feel they don't a lot of times they just
don't match up. Yeah. Yeah, I also want I want

(35:52):
to point out how that disconnect between mind and body
is a very common symptom or survivors of abuse and trauma.
Is this idea of particularly when it's involving um sexual
body parts, because the feeling itself can be confusing and

(36:14):
that sometimes it is pleasurable. But then in your mind
or even in your heart, you're like, but this isn't right,
and I don't feel good, and this is you know,
all of the insert whatever adjective you want, you know, um,
And so that in itself is confusing. Yeah, and so
it's easy for that too, that h that interaction to

(36:36):
spill over to other areas of life too. So I
know for us, one of our tasks is how to
integrate that more for you, Yeah, so that one you
can safely rely on your intuition and instincts and gut

(36:58):
reactions of if somebody does say something that's um disingenuous,
that you can trust your ability to sense that and
know that. And then vice versa, when somebody is sincere
and authentic with you, that you can trust that too.
M Um. What I heard you saying was that time

(37:19):
and consistency with people in your life like that helps
build that sense of trust. M We have a little
bit more for you listeners, but we're going to pause
for one more quick break for word from our sponsor.
M HM. Has there ever been a time when, um,

(37:51):
when you have gone with a gut instinct, whether it
was early on in a relationship and it ended up
being correct, Like you and you are either surprised by
that or like, do you have any experience of that?
Um yeah, uh no, not personally, but I can see

(38:11):
it in other people's relationships, which is the last thing
anyone wants. But I have a friend in particular where
several times I've been like, this person is no good
for you, and I usually don't unless they ask, like
or I'm very concerned, I'm not going to to voice that.

(38:32):
Um So, I feel like sometimes I can see in
other people. I think I've often felt it in my
own relationships, but I usually convinced myself that I'm being um, yes,
paranoid or it's It's difficult for me because I've never

(38:56):
really had a I don't remember to my to a a
time before I had like traumatic stuff. So I think
a lot of times I'm thinking, maybe this is normal
and I'm just being like overly sensitive to it. Um So,
I'll definitely stay in relationships long past when I think

(39:21):
this is not going to work, okay. So you start
to second guess yourself and doubt your ability to discern
and know what's right for you. And so what is
it that keeps you there. You had mentioned something about

(39:42):
how you may like minimize your feelings or brush it off.
It's like, oh, I'm just being too sensitive. But are
there other things that keep you in a situation that
you don't feel like it's great for you? I don't
I want to hurt the other person's feelings A lot

(40:04):
of time, UM, I have. I am very bad about
um letting people. I don't want to let anybody down.
I don't want to make anyone unhappy unhappy, and I

(40:25):
I think there is a sense of like, well, this
person is well willing to be with you, um and
they still are. So maybe you should see if you
can make it work, because who knows if there's another
person like that out there saying that out loud? How

(40:50):
does that feel? It's sad? I mean I've never this
isn't a surprise to me at all. I often think that,
but yeah I think it out loud? Is that it
makes me sad? Yeah, because I can I can see

(41:12):
the emotion when you talk about it. Looks like a
lot of sadness. Yeah. Is this something that you would
like to see shift in your life and your own
self perception? Yeah? I just feel like there's so many

(41:40):
threads for me to like, so many things I need
to tackle before I can even like ascertain what I want.
I don't even know what I want. Yeah, and I
would like to be able to say confidently, I this

(42:02):
relationship isn't good for me our no relationship is good
for me or without always wondering is it because I
went through these traumatic things? M hm hm Yeah, that's

(42:29):
I mean, that's just compelling to me to hear um,
because it's it's another way that the traumatic experiences you've
had continue to have a hold on not just you
and how you view yourself, but also like your life,
you know, and the and the near future you know essentially. Um. Yeah,

(42:57):
which is why I think it's just so brave of
you two work on this stuff and to talk about this,
because for so long it's kind of been this like
dark passenger for lack of better word, with you, you
know what I mean, Like, um, something that you carry
that you don't share, but like that impacts you and

(43:20):
every aspect of your life. Yeah, and it also keeps
you from your goal of like authentic connection and to
be seen and known by another person. Yeah. Yeah, there

(43:42):
are so many things that I have done for so
long that I had not realized that I was doing
just to to cope and to avoid into not have
to deal with it, right. And we've talked about how
that's adaptive, right until you're in situations that are safe

(44:06):
and that don't need um, that hyper vigilance you know,
to keep you safe, and then it becomes unhelpful and
it can keep you from your goals for yourself. Mm hmm.
Do you think that you are at that place where, um,

(44:27):
you you are safe? I think yes, Um. Again, it's
one of those things where, ah, I think I am safe,
and I feel pretty safe most of the time, but
then I have days where I really don't um. And

(44:53):
I mean the compliment thing is a great example, like
in any relationship that in theory you're going to like date, uh,
someone gives you a compliment the amount of like I've
got to get out of here right now that I feel, um,
it makes me so uncomfortable. Yeah, uh, and it's it's

(45:15):
like panic. I remember somebody was like getting ready to
compliment me and it was like stop stop up ups up. Um.
So I it's that, yeah, another thing where I'm pretty
sure that I am safe, but I don't always feel safe. Yeah,
really great distinction because again that gets that like the
mind and the body and the disconnect, right. I may

(45:37):
not feel safe in your body because you're being triggered
mm hmm, but your mind, in the reality of um
the situation, you may you likely are safe, you know,
but there's always that that risk, especially when you're in
a relationship with another person and you're getting to know
that person. So what if oh h And that's the

(46:02):
thing about triggers and why they can have a really
powerful hold on um anyone's way of being and a functioning,
is that there was a time when you we're safe
at preschool, and you did feel safe at preschool until
the first abuse instance, and then you were no longer

(46:22):
say you know what I mean, or the grooming started
and you started to get that kind of prickly feeling
or the hair in your arms or like that ikey
feeling and your tell me of like why is he
sitting so close to me? Yeah? Um? And so when
you're triggered by a compliment, it likely brings you back
to those feelings when you were a little girl. M hmm.

(46:51):
Have we done a writing exercise yet together? If I
asked you to do it. UM. I don't think I have,
but I'm thinking it may be helpful. UM, if you're
for it and interested, I feel free to say no. UM.
But writing a letter to little Annie, to you as
a little girl, UM, during that first instance of abuse,

(47:16):
H and what you would like to say to her,
are even thinking about what what you what she needs
or what you would have wanted. I think that could
be a powerful exercise to kind of get in tune
with like one year, not that little girl anymore, UM,
but also still you're still so closely connected. Yeah. UM,

(47:43):
that's it's really interesting to me that that's UM, that
that suggestion, I do you think would be really powerful
because I I've told you before, I have this UM
character that I wrote that I later realized she was
like my trauma personified. And one night I couldn't sleep
and I wrote a letter to her, apologizing to her

(48:05):
for what I had done to her writing UM, and
it was really moving. And she's a fictional character. But yeah,
I bet that would be yeah, pretty powerful for me.
M hm. Right. And if you do do that and
feel like you want to include that or involve that

(48:25):
in your therapy, that would be UM, great to hear
and for you to share. Also, the character I know
we've talked about her a bit, UM, feel free to
include her and bring her into any time. Don't tempt me.
I would love it. I love I love narrative work

(48:46):
because I think it's just a really powerful way to
do post traumatic healing, especially at the beginning, UM, when
the exposure of talking about your own experiences can be
almost too much. UM. It can feel safer for many
too to share and to talk through a character. Yeah yeah,

(49:09):
mhm UM. Going back to what we were talking about
about you get over scheduling yourself. UM. Did we chat
about what you were afraid of if you weren't as scheduled, like, like,

(49:33):
what would happen? UM? I have I have this if
I sit still too long with myself. UM. I would
describe it as like a like itching. UM. I just

(49:55):
get really uncomfortable and then I get like this, UM,
like gnawing anxiety of you you should be doing something,
you should be doing something UM. And it's it's something

(50:17):
that I also experience when I try to sleep UM,
And I I think I am just afraid of where
my thoughts will go if I don't occupy them. Um. Yeah,

(50:40):
Because I mean most of the time, even when I
can't sleep, it's fine. I mean it's not great, but
I can't sleep. But there's no like flashback happening or
anything like that. Um. But sometimes there are, and I
think that those times are powerful enough that I will

(51:05):
do what I have to what I think will be
my best bet to prevent them. M hmm. Yeah. I
think I'm just really uncomfortable in my own skin mhm. Um,
and I I like to have distraction from it. M hm.

(51:29):
Do you feel like you're almost like a different person
when you're around other people? Yeah? Yeah, Um is my WORF.
I used to say, like my greatest skill I was
pretending everything was okay. Um. I think when I'm around

(51:52):
other people, I'm just very like happy. I I I'm
like happy and I lava. All my nicknames are based
around laughter almost um. Yeah. And then when I'm by myself,

(52:14):
it's like the opposite end of this spectrum. And I've
gotten better, I haven't. Um, I've gotten better about being
like with myself by myself because eventually I had to,
like I was crashing hard. Um. That was one of
the things where I knew that I probably needed to

(52:35):
go get therapy. UM, but yeah, I think I am.
When I'm out with people, I'm much more like lighter
and that's because of the distraction, I think so. And
I think there's also an element of um having you know,

(53:00):
you have that social persona, UM, and my social persona
is that she's like like another person. I am like UM,
very um fun and outgoing and I'm always down to
hang and I've always got like jokes and puns and UM,

(53:22):
I'm just fun. And I think there's a defense around
that too, where I have that underlying sense of when
people realize what you really are, they'll never want to
hang out with you. But if you're super fun, then
they'll always like invite you to stuff, They'll want to
hang out with you. Mm hmm. So it's almost like

(53:45):
performing mm hmm. That was the sense that I was getting,
you know. UM. A lot of performers talk about the
idea of having a persona, and then when they are
out of the um spotlights how to speak or there
cameras aren't really right, then there's this lull of you know,

(54:09):
who am I If I'm not engaging with people in
ways that are expected of me. You know, there's like
an identity that's formed around how other people perceive you.
Mm hmm. How do you think that that tendency within

(54:29):
yourself connects to your traumatic experiences or if you think
that it does it all? Actually I think um, the
closest way that it does is probably ah my I
mean mainly my UM desire that to not make people

(54:57):
uncomfortable or sad. You protect people, um and make them happy,
and in doing so, not sharing that with with people,
not sharing what happened to me with people that are
close to me, UM, like pretending everything is okay so
that they don't have to worry about it or feel

(55:19):
bad about it. M Um. To protect others at the
sake of yourself yeah, um. And even you know, when
you're trying to cope yourself, you don't want to admit

(55:44):
but this has happened to you. Like there's there's even
an element of that of like if I can almost
pretend I am this person and then I don't have
to feel like that vulnerability and that feeling, that feeling

(56:05):
that oh I am not over it. There's something very
alluring about you know what this happened to me? But
I'm the life of the party. Yeah. Um, but eventually
you have to go home. Mhm mhmm. Yeah. That's the

(56:28):
thing about denial, it being one of the most primitive defenses, right,
is that, um, it can only work for so long. Yeah. Uh.
And that's the thing about trauma, you know, and whether

(56:48):
it's denial, avoidance, or dissociation or all of the above, Ah,
it will find a way to come out mm hmm.
And man of best itself, you know, which is why UM,
trauma focused work can be so scary because it removes

(57:12):
that defense. UM. But also that's the same reason why
it's really powerful, because UM it has the ability to
get to the root of the issue so that it
can be less poignant and impactful in one's life. Yeah,

(57:35):
I'm just talking about it like you're doing. Is a
really big part of that process mm hmm. Yeah. Oh man, Yeah,
it's it's been I don't know, it does feel like

(57:58):
I have if there's almost two people that are living
inside of me. Um. Just so it sounds weird to say,
but I do feel like there's the one that most
people know mm hmm, and there's another one yeah, and

(58:23):
the other one is hidden because out of is the
other one hidden out of UM, fear that the people
close to you would not be there for you or
would look at you differently if they knew. Yeah. Yeah,

(58:48):
I have a pretty decent amount of fear that when
you meet people mm hmmm, I'm comfortable, um, or if
they see they hear these things about you and they're thinking, oh, man, M,

(59:11):
I don't know if I want to have to deal
with this. And that's that's being really to my friends. Um,
I'm fairly confident. Yeah, I'm almost you know, it's me.
It's I'm the line M that is uncomfortable with with

(59:33):
being open with that person. Mm hmm. Yeah yeah. And
even just saying that, Um, there's a lot of emotion
in that statement. I can see what makes you the

(59:56):
most uncomfortable about that? Do you think I think? Um?
I think it makes it real, It makes it like
I can't and that's another thing I can't take back
and did. Also, I have built myself on on making

(01:00:20):
people happy and on also being strong. It feels like
admitting I was weak mm hmmm. Um. And there are
certain things that um, I think people find funny about
me that I think if they knew this source was

(01:00:43):
from traumatic experience, they would feel guilty and also like, so,
for example, I'm very easily startled. Um, it's kind of
like a joke and it doesn't upset me, Like I'm
not I'm not saying this, but I'm worried that every
time someone startled me who knew that after the facts, right,

(01:01:08):
there would be this moment of like, oh, yeah, that
thing happened to you, right, right? So, so part of
what I hear you saying is that you feel like
if people knew, then they would start to think of
you as either a victim or as they think about

(01:01:34):
the abuse when thinking about you. Is that is that
part of what I hear you saying, hm, right, and
that you want to be known for so many other
things M yeah, rightfully, so I can I can understand
that fear. I think that's also tied into what you
said about how you feel like people would think of

(01:01:56):
you as weak mm hmm. You know, and I think
that you know, we've talked a bit about like unhelpful
um like cognitions and kind of unhelpful core beliefs around
the trauma that have been internalized that will do some
work on externalizing and then restoring through narrative work. But um,

(01:02:17):
this idea that trauma makes somebody weak is one that
I you know, I know, UM is a recurring theme
in our work together, and that I hear you talk
about in regards to yourself versus which is the same
as like the victim versus survivor m right, um, when

(01:02:40):
in fact it was actually a resilience in your strength
that allows you to continue to persevere and um thrive. Yeah.
And there's an element too of um, a survivor taking
on the persona or the identity of weakness that absolves

(01:03:02):
the offender of all of the responsibility. Yeah, you know
what I mean. M Yeah, just throwing that out there.
Not much that we have to do with that now,
but bookmarking some things to make sure that we address

(01:03:22):
and come back to. Yeah. Yeah, I think I've told
you before. I on days where I like, I can
feel compassion m um for my younger self because she
does feel like a younger sister. She doesn't, she doesn't
feel like me at all, But sometimes I'm like in

(01:03:44):
awe of what she dealt with. Yeah. I hope for
you that you can sit in that sense of awe
and let that permeate you more. Uh, because when I

(01:04:04):
sit with you and when I talk with you and
see you, that's what I see. And I'm sure that
the people in your life, UM that love you and
that are close with you see the same thing. Mhm
mhm mm hmm. So why don't this week We're gonna

(01:04:30):
have to pause in a moment, but why don't this
week you UM try to approach some of the self
compassion with intentionality and UM, even if it's just a
moment every day a thinking through and reflecting something that UM,
you are in awe of about yourself. Okay, Okay, I'm

(01:04:53):
gonna ask you about that next session. Okay, homework perfect.
And that's that. That's what therapy can look like. UM.
I never really know how these are going to go.
I didn't know what I was going to talk about.

(01:05:13):
I knew what I wouldn't talk about, UM, but I
I believe me I had that is the last thing
I thought I was And just so you know, I
was not present for this. Um our producer Andrew, who
was fantastic, was not present for those because we wanted
you to be in your safe, in your place and
make it normal as possible. With headphones and my I mean,

(01:05:34):
I will say for me it felt normal, but yeah,
that was something like even though we're here talking about it, obviously, UM,
it was done in a private manner. And there are
things we may have taken out or put up, get
together whatever, not necessarily rearranged, but put together because we
felt it was important. So again, we were still protecting

(01:05:56):
our own um selves, in our own emotions, in our
own and heal mental health. Yes, so just again Yeah,
and UM. One thing I did want to mention that
I have really appreciated about doing these sessions with Dr
Coleman is she gives me a lot of tools like
coping tools, UM, like safe place, measuring distress units. UM.

(01:06:18):
Will probably come back and talk about those in future episodes. Uh.
And one thing I found interesting after listening back to
this is I really played it safe. I wanted to
play it safe. UM. I didn't want to get into
details of my abuse. But at the same time, there
was something she asked me where I didn't even think
about the abuse and I should have, Like, um, there's

(01:06:40):
this question around control. And if I imagine my brain
is Google and she's giving me a search term, it's
like those sections of my life are blocked results. They
didn't even appear until later, and I was thinking about it, like, oh,
one of those moments. My denial game is very strong. Um.
And not that the answer I gave wasn't true. It's
very true, but it's just not the obvious choice at all. Um.

(01:07:04):
But yeah, I hope that if you've ever thought you
were the only one that had these very severe insecurities
and low self esteem, I present proof that you are not.
I think you and I'd already talked about the fight
that we both had a session about being feeling like
we had the imposter syndrome, and specifically about this podcast,

(01:07:26):
I think, oh yes, um, yep, but um, yeah, we
hope that this is um made it less scary, maybe
helped to stigmatize it a little for you listeners, And
you will be hearing Samantha's in the next episode. But
in the meantime, UM, thank you so much for joining us, Samantha,

(01:07:48):
Thank you guys let me be a part of this. Yeah,
and thanks to Dr Coleman, who agreed to do this
after after months of careful thoughts. So, if you're in
Georgia or in Vermont and you handle Ford therapy, she
is fantastic. Um. Thus far she has called me out
on a lot of things, which is in a good way. Yes,
in a good way. UM. Thanks as always to our

(01:08:11):
super producer Andrew Howard. Andrew, we love you, we do,
and thanks to you for listening. If you would like
to write to as you can, Our email is mom
Stuff at our stuff works dot com. You can also
find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast and on
Instagram at stuff Mom Never Told You. Give us the resources.
Stuff Mom Never Told You was a production of I

(01:08:31):
Heart Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcast from I
Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.