Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now a concerning report in the Northern terret Train News
on the weekend about victims of crime, defendants and witnesses
falling through the cracks of an overwhelmed court system, as
in custody numbers in Darwin's spike by two hundred and
fifty percent now. According to data obtained by the Northern
Tiret Train News, the Darwin local courts in custody numbers
(00:21):
on the first day of each week has dramatically increased
over the past seven months. According to the report, on
the sixteenth of June, there were forty nine people on
the in custody list compared to fourteen the fourteen in
the cells on the first Monday of December last year.
Now joining us in the studio is bethwhile the President
(00:42):
of the Criminal Lawyers Association of the Northern Territory. Good morning, Beth,
minding Katie, thanks so much for your time this morning now, Beth.
According to the paper on June sixteen, as I touched on,
there were forty nine people on the in custody list
compared to fourteen people in the cells on the first
Monday of Decement last year. What kind of impact are
(01:03):
these numbers having? On the system from your perspective.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
So, Katie, what I've seen down at the courts, and
I was there two weeks ago when we were having
these huge numbers through, we're seeing a delay in matters
getting reached in court of the night. Every of the
forty nine people needs all their paperwork to be read
by a lawyer that them will go in and see
(01:28):
their client. That can take all morning to sort out.
We're even seeing just basic things like a queue of
lawyers waiting to see that the prisoners that are in
the cells because there's only four holding cells, so we're
having to wait to see our clients. That means that
we're not ready to go before lunchtime, and then after
(01:50):
lunch everybody's ready to go, and then matters aren't reached
and they're then adjourned to the next day or the
day after, and just the can keeps getting kicked down
the road. So we're not seeing outcomes and the system
certainly overwhelmed.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
How significantly have those numbers grown in recent months?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well, those statistics that you just read out are accurate
and frightening, So something like two hundred and fifty percent
in spike that we're seeing and it's a natural consequence
of a series of decisions that have been taken by
various players. One is that the court, the judges stopped
doing their own call bail applications over the weekends and overnight.
(02:32):
That means that no one would be getting bailed from
the station, so everybody's getting brought before the court. We've
also had the Attorney General confirm that she's directed police
to arrest more people, So we're seeing that those decisions
on the ground as to whether or not somebody might
be warned or bailed or charged by way of summons,
(02:52):
which used to be the presumption, those people are instead
being arrested and brought before the courts. So all of
those things together, as well as the new Bayer laws,
have meant that we're seeing this spark.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So really it is a lot of it is as
a result of those legislative changes. Yes, now, can you
give me some examples of what the situation means on
a day to day basis. I mean you touched on
it just before when you talked about lawyers sort of
not being able to see the people that they need
to go in and see. But talk us through what
it means on that day to day basis, it.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Means it matters aren't getting reached before the courts, so
they're not somebody might be on quite a minor charge.
It might be a driving offense, so you know a
lot of people do get picked up for driving offenses,
even for speeding over a certain limit. Is imprisonable, which
means it's arrestable, which means you get brought before the court.
So people or they might have a warrant for failing
(03:48):
to attend for a driving matter for example. Now people
like that won't be getting bail, and sometimes it means
that they're not facing court on the first day. A
lot of people, because the prisons are so for are
not going to the prison, they're going to the watch houses.
So they'll be in the watch houses for about seven
days before they're even able. The lawyers or even their
family might know where they are. So we can't find
(04:10):
people because forty nine people aren't getting brought before the court.
There's forty nine on a list, But there are various
places around the Darwin and Greater Darwin area and watch
houses and so on, so the difficult to find, difficult
to get paperwork, difficult to get instructions from and again,
so what you might have is people spending up to
seven days in custody for what for something that they
(04:30):
would never get a term of imprisonment for. They'd get
a fine for it, but instead they've been shuffled in
quite awful conditions in the watchhouses for that time. I
had a prisoner the other day that was complaining that
he hadn't had a shower. He was smelly. I preparated
it back to the guards. He was worried he was
(04:51):
getting an affection under his armor boil because he hadn't
had a shower. So basic things like that are happening,
and people are getting lost in the system because of
the numbers and the pressure.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
But if I know some people listening will be going, well,
you know, we don't want criminals out on the street,
people who've broken the law out on the street. But
from what you're saying to me, you know, in some
instances you are talking about offenses which may not be
as serious as what our listeners might think they are.
Would that be correct?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
That's right? And when a lot of the listeners hearing
this saying, well, this would never happen to me because
I don't break the law. So I don't have to
worry about it. This is about criminals. They're getting what
they deserve. But imagine this scenario. Imagine you're having an
argument with your neighbor and there's some neighborhood dispute that's happening,
and they ring the police. They make a complaint against you.
(05:40):
It's not true, but the police doesn't know that. There's
no If you're getting arrested straight away, just say they've
said you've asulted them, You get in prison, you get
locked up, You then can't speak to anybody, can't establish
your innocence. We lose this presumption of innocence because we're
getting arrested straight away, remanded, spending a week in custody
(06:00):
before you've even spoken to anybody. So apply that to
yourself and it could happen to you. This is what's
happening now in our prison system, in our correction system,
our justice system, and we all should have pause for
concern of that.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
But in terms of what could be done to try
and move things along more quickly, because we've got an
enormous number of people on remand as well, there is
no doubt that we need to get things moving much
more quickly by the sounds of things, what could be done.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yes, so we've got about over fifty percent on remand
so just a huge amount of that's where we're seeing
the spikes of people that aren't being seen by courts.
There's a few really easy things that could happen. We
could have longer sitting days at court because using the
example I did before, the lawyers aren't ready to go
until two o'clock. And to say that we'll start at
nine point thirty and make sure all the lawyers are ready,
(06:50):
it's not going to happen because of what takes the time.
It takes the time to get the paperwork, to speak
to your client, to get a plan ready, to be
able to do a plea or a bail application or
adjourning a matter, all of those things take time. If
we had longer sitting days and two courts stood up
in the afternoon rather than the morning to take the overflow.
I know that we've got one extra judge that's going
(07:11):
to be appointed later in the year, and that that's good,
But when we're talking about two hundred and fifty percent spikes,
it's not going to cover it. But if we do
at least have a number of courts running in the
afternoon and longest sitting days. Then what we might see
is that we're getting to three o'clock at the end
of the day, which is not even the end of
(07:32):
a day, and from three o'clock we're getting cut offs
and everything's getting adjourned to the next day. So then
we just have the same thing. It's Groundhog Day at
court and instead of actually getting through matters with longer days,
then instead of ajourning everything off and you have to
start again.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
It seems crazy to me that, you know, like that
sounds like quite a logical and simple thing to do
to just extend the you know, to extend the day,
have longer sitting dues.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Well, because if we need more court rooms, for example,
than instead of building a whole new courthouse, we just
use them for longer And that seems to make sense.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
And so I mean, why is something like that not happening.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I don't know. I did. I gave them the suggestion
earlier on in the year, and I don't know what
hasn't been enacted. There's a few things you'd need to do.
You need to get the court stuff, perhaps on split shift,
so you there's a bit of recruitment that we need
to happen in order to stand that up. That doesn't
seem to be like an overwhelming hurdle.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I mean, Beth, if we're able to do that, if
we were able to extend those sitting days and we're
able to push through some of these cases a little
bit more quickly, what impact do you think that would
have more broadly, not just for you know, for those
that are waiting for their cases to be heard, but
even when you look at you know, victims of crime,
everybody within the system.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
So it would mean that we've got less delay, that
we could see a reduction in the remand rate because
people would be processed more quickly, they might be sentenced
more quickly, which takes them out of that Romand population
and into the sentence prisoner, which is and it is
the pressure in the Roman population that the problem is
in terms of victims. What we are seeing at the
(09:14):
moment is with an overwhelmed system and people just dealing
with the duty court, the remand the arrest in Romand courts,
then the hearing courts don't necessarily get enough attention, and
so what we can see is matters getting adjourned when
we've got witnesses summons, victims summons to attend for their
(09:35):
court date and those matters not getting reached. And now
that should be a real concern for people too, and
that's been occurring all year with the added pressure that
matters just aren't getting reached.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Well, yeah, I believe correct me if I've got these
numbers wrong. But when I caught up with Najar a
couple of weeks ago that actually said that when you
talk about remand, I think the average in the Northern
Territory court was about ninety days on remand, and then
in the Supreme Court think it was around three hundred days. Yeah,
I mean they're massive numbers.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yes they are. The Supreme Court is dealing with much
more serious offenses and if you're listing no matter for trial,
then three hundred days is probably comparable to other places
in Australia because they're the serious offenses. But what has
really spiked is the proportion of prisoners on remand in
(10:25):
the local court. And that's about listing days very much
so listing a matter for hearings or directions, and those
lists are really blowing out. So and that's just an
administrative logistical thing, and it is frustrating the ability to
have an effective justice system all round for everybody involved
(10:46):
in it.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Well, Berthwhild I always appreciate your time. I know you're
a busy woman. Thank you very much for joining me
in the studio this morning. Thank you Katie, thank you
Now a concerning report in the Northern terret Train News
on the weekend about victims of crime, defendants and witnesses
falling through the cracks of an overwhelmed court system, as
in custody numbers in Darwin's spike by two hundred and
fifty percent now. According to data obtained by the Northern
Tiret Train News, the Darwin local courts in custody numbers
(00:21):
on the first day of each week has dramatically increased
over the past seven months. According to the report, on
the sixteenth of June, there were forty nine people on
the in custody list compared to fourteen the fourteen in
the cells on the first Monday of December last year.
Now joining us in the studio is bethwhile the President
(00:42):
of the Criminal Lawyers Association of the Northern Territory. Good morning, Beth,
minding Katie, thanks so much for your time this morning now, Beth.
According to the paper on June sixteen, as I touched on,
there were forty nine people on the in custody list
compared to fourteen people in the cells on the first
Monday of Decement last year. What kind of impact are
(01:03):
these numbers having? On the system from your perspective.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
So, Katie, what I've seen down at the courts, and
I was there two weeks ago when we were having
these huge numbers through, we're seeing a delay in matters
getting reached in court of the night. Every of the
forty nine people needs all their paperwork to be read
by a lawyer that them will go in and see
(01:28):
their client. That can take all morning to sort out.
We're even seeing just basic things like a queue of
lawyers waiting to see that the prisoners that are in
the cells because there's only four holding cells, so we're
having to wait to see our clients. That means that
we're not ready to go before lunchtime, and then after
(01:50):
lunch everybody's ready to go, and then matters aren't reached
and they're then adjourned to the next day or the
day after, and just the can keeps getting kicked down
the road. So we're not seeing outcomes and the system
certainly overwhelmed.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
How significantly have those numbers grown in recent months?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well, those statistics that you just read out are accurate
and frightening, So something like two hundred and fifty percent
in spike that we're seeing and it's a natural consequence
of a series of decisions that have been taken by
various players. One is that the court, the judges stopped
doing their own call bail applications over the weekends and overnight.
(02:32):
That means that no one would be getting bailed from
the station, so everybody's getting brought before the court. We've
also had the Attorney General confirm that she's directed police
to arrest more people, So we're seeing that those decisions
on the ground as to whether or not somebody might
be warned or bailed or charged by way of summons,
(02:52):
which used to be the presumption, those people are instead
being arrested and brought before the courts. So all of
those things together, as well as the new Bayer laws,
have meant that we're seeing this spark.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So really it is a lot of it is as
a result of those legislative changes. Yes, now, can you
give me some examples of what the situation means on
a day to day basis. I mean you touched on
it just before when you talked about lawyers sort of
not being able to see the people that they need
to go in and see. But talk us through what
it means on that day to day basis, it.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Means it matters aren't getting reached before the courts, so
they're not somebody might be on quite a minor charge.
It might be a driving offense, so you know a
lot of people do get picked up for driving offenses,
even for speeding over a certain limit. Is imprisonable, which
means it's arrestable, which means you get brought before the court.
So people or they might have a warrant for failing
(03:48):
to attend for a driving matter for example. Now people
like that won't be getting bail, and sometimes it means
that they're not facing court on the first day. A
lot of people, because the prisons are so for are
not going to the prison, they're going to the watch houses.
So they'll be in the watch houses for about seven
days before they're even able. The lawyers or even their
family might know where they are. So we can't find
(04:10):
people because forty nine people aren't getting brought before the court.
There's forty nine on a list, But there are various
places around the Darwin and Greater Darwin area and watch
houses and so on, so the difficult to find, difficult
to get paperwork, difficult to get instructions from and again,
so what you might have is people spending up to
seven days in custody for what for something that they
(04:30):
would never get a term of imprisonment for. They'd get
a fine for it, but instead they've been shuffled in
quite awful conditions in the watchhouses for that time. I
had a prisoner the other day that was complaining that
he hadn't had a shower. He was smelly. I preparated
it back to the guards. He was worried he was
(04:51):
getting an affection under his armor boil because he hadn't
had a shower. So basic things like that are happening,
and people are getting lost in the system because of
the numbers and the pressure.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
But if I know some people listening will be going, well,
you know, we don't want criminals out on the street,
people who've broken the law out on the street. But
from what you're saying to me, you know, in some
instances you are talking about offenses which may not be
as serious as what our listeners might think they are.
Would that be correct?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
That's right? And when a lot of the listeners hearing
this saying, well, this would never happen to me because
I don't break the law. So I don't have to
worry about it. This is about criminals. They're getting what
they deserve. But imagine this scenario. Imagine you're having an
argument with your neighbor and there's some neighborhood dispute that's happening,
and they ring the police. They make a complaint against you.
(05:40):
It's not true, but the police doesn't know that. There's
no If you're getting arrested straight away, just say they've
said you've asulted them, You get in prison, you get
locked up, You then can't speak to anybody, can't establish
your innocence. We lose this presumption of innocence because we're
getting arrested straight away, remanded, spending a week in custody
(06:00):
before you've even spoken to anybody. So apply that to
yourself and it could happen to you. This is what's
happening now in our prison system, in our correction system,
our justice system, and we all should have pause for
concern of that.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
But in terms of what could be done to try
and move things along more quickly, because we've got an
enormous number of people on remand as well, there is
no doubt that we need to get things moving much
more quickly by the sounds of things, what could be done.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yes, so we've got about over fifty percent on remand
so just a huge amount of that's where we're seeing
the spikes of people that aren't being seen by courts.
There's a few really easy things that could happen. We
could have longer sitting days at court because using the
example I did before, the lawyers aren't ready to go
until two o'clock. And to say that we'll start at
nine point thirty and make sure all the lawyers are ready,
(06:50):
it's not going to happen because of what takes the time.
It takes the time to get the paperwork, to speak
to your client, to get a plan ready, to be
able to do a plea or a bail application or
adjourning a matter, all of those things take time. If
we had longer sitting days and two courts stood up
in the afternoon rather than the morning to take the overflow.
I know that we've got one extra judge that's going
(07:11):
to be appointed later in the year, and that that's good,
But when we're talking about two hundred and fifty percent spikes,
it's not going to cover it. But if we do
at least have a number of courts running in the
afternoon and longest sitting days. Then what we might see
is that we're getting to three o'clock at the end
of the day, which is not even the end of
(07:32):
a day, and from three o'clock we're getting cut offs
and everything's getting adjourned to the next day. So then
we just have the same thing. It's Groundhog Day at
court and instead of actually getting through matters with longer days,
then instead of ajourning everything off and you have to
start again.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
It seems crazy to me that, you know, like that
sounds like quite a logical and simple thing to do
to just extend the you know, to extend the day,
have longer sitting dues.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Well, because if we need more court rooms, for example,
than instead of building a whole new courthouse, we just
use them for longer And that seems to make sense.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
And so I mean, why is something like that not happening.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I don't know. I did. I gave them the suggestion
earlier on in the year, and I don't know what
hasn't been enacted. There's a few things you'd need to do.
You need to get the court stuff, perhaps on split shift,
so you there's a bit of recruitment that we need
to happen in order to stand that up. That doesn't
seem to be like an overwhelming hurdle.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I mean, Beth, if we're able to do that, if
we were able to extend those sitting days and we're
able to push through some of these cases a little
bit more quickly, what impact do you think that would
have more broadly, not just for you know, for those
that are waiting for their cases to be heard, but
even when you look at you know, victims of crime,
everybody within the system.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
So it would mean that we've got less delay, that
we could see a reduction in the remand rate because
people would be processed more quickly, they might be sentenced
more quickly, which takes them out of that Romand population
and into the sentence prisoner, which is and it is
the pressure in the Roman population that the problem is
in terms of victims. What we are seeing at the
(09:14):
moment is with an overwhelmed system and people just dealing
with the duty court, the remand the arrest in Romand courts,
then the hearing courts don't necessarily get enough attention, and
so what we can see is matters getting adjourned when
we've got witnesses summons, victims summons to attend for their
(09:35):
court date and those matters not getting reached. And now
that should be a real concern for people too, and
that's been occurring all year with the added pressure that
matters just aren't getting reached.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Well, yeah, I believe correct me if I've got these
numbers wrong. But when I caught up with Najar a
couple of weeks ago that actually said that when you
talk about remand, I think the average in the Northern
Territory court was about ninety days on remand, and then
in the Supreme Court think it was around three hundred days. Yeah,
I mean they're massive numbers.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yes they are. The Supreme Court is dealing with much
more serious offenses and if you're listing no matter for trial,
then three hundred days is probably comparable to other places
in Australia because they're the serious offenses. But what has
really spiked is the proportion of prisoners on remand in
(10:25):
the local court. And that's about listing days very much
so listing a matter for hearings or directions, and those
lists are really blowing out. So and that's just an
administrative logistical thing, and it is frustrating the ability to
have an effective justice system all round for everybody involved
(10:46):
in it.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Well, Berthwhild I always appreciate your time. I know you're
a busy woman. Thank you very much for joining me
in the studio this morning. Thank you Katie, thank you
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