Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We know that this situation with the deaths in custody
has meant that there has been a real spotlight in
recent days on police. Northern Territory MP Marion Scrimdaw calling
for the Australian Federal Police last week to take over
the investigation into the Alice Springs death in custody, saying
(00:20):
it was a first step towards healing and justice. Then,
as we have just discussed, of course with Naja, a
second death in custody following the passing of a sixty
eight year old man after he was taken into protective
custody by AFP officers and was initially conveyed to the
Palmerston Watchhouse. He passed away of course at Royal Darwin
(00:41):
Hospital sometime later days later. Now joining me on the
show is Nathan Finn, the president of the Northern Territory
Police Association. Good morning to you, Finny, Good.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Morning Katy, and good morning to your listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Finny. What are members saying to you following the two
deaths in custody.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Well, first of all, Katie, I understand why your text
lines blowing up after that last interview. There's some frustrations
in the community and again, there's rhetrics out in the
community that don't know exactly what's occurred, and there's investigations
going on into that fact. We acknowledge the deep tragedy
the recent deaths in custody. There are distressing events and
no one, including a members of the police force, ever
(01:18):
want to see this occur. Katie. The Northern Church Police
Association is actively supporting the officers involved in the Allow
Springs incident. Whilst obviously these matter remain under investigation and
the other investigation as well involving the Australian Federal Police
also an investigation being appropriate mid comment further on on
the investigation as such, but the fact is, the rhetric
that's out there about him stealing a chocolate bar and
(01:40):
that sort of stuff, it's a tragedy that's occurred. Our
members didn't want this to occur. They felt that they'd
had to intervene because of the situation that was unfolding
in front of them. Violently attacking a security guard is
the reason why our members become involved and had to
take action.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Finny, as you have said, obviously want to be very
careful here in what we say. Have you spoken to
those members following following the Alice Springs deep in custody here.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Katie, as soon as we've got notification on the twenty
seventh of May, myself and that my fellow field officer
Todd Limbery traveled to Ollie Springs and to support the
members involved in the process. Even though there's a lot
of members involved in the process that actually attended the
incident in coals, it's still a stressful situation regardless of
if they've done anything wrong or haven't done anything wrong.
The investigation will look into that side of things. We're
(02:31):
there to support our members, to make sure that they're
supported in going through the process. It's not a nice process, Katie,
to go through an interview and be directed interview for
your involvement in the situation, regardless of what you thought
was right or wrong. There's still obviously that perception that
there's potentially something that they're going to look at, and
we don't want to see that. We don't want to
see our members go through that situation. We don't definitely
(02:52):
the members involved didn't want to didn't anticipate that this
would ever occur. But again, we can't go to a
situation knowing what the behavioral instincts of this person is
we haven't got that information. We have to react with
in split seconds, and our officers did that to protect
a member of the community that was under threat from
this situation.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
What do you say to the calls, you know, people
asking for the security vision to be released or CCTV
vision to be released.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, Katie, Again, that's a decision for the Northern Territory
Police Force and a decision for the investigators to conduct that.
That's the investigation they're running. We don't have any saying
that what the investigation is. Again, if there was information
suggest that, and if they could, they probably would have
released it. What we're indicating is that and we're supporting
our members the best possible way we can and advocating
(03:41):
for them to make sure they're supported throughout this whole process.
It's a tragedy. It is a tragedy. I've reached out
to members of the community. I've worked in UNIMR community.
I understand the family issues there. This person was supposed
to be in the care of someone, he wasn't in
the care of someone, and this is unfortunately led to
what's what's occurred. Our members are quite rightfully frustrated. They're
(04:04):
danned if they do dan, if they if they don't.
They can't walk past something that's occurring like this. They
have to become involved even though they're not equipped to
deal with it at the time. They haven't got police radio,
they haven't got anything else to deal with it. They
still have to respond and they still have to put
their life on the line as well in responding to
make sure the community is safe.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Finny, we know that, Marian Scrimdaw said. The investigation by
Northern Territory Police of previous previous death in custody of
nineteen year old Cumen Jai Walker following a police shooting
in Yuan Demu in twenty nineteen demonstrated the agency's integrity
and independence, but many of those involved in the investigation
(04:42):
experienced ostracism, and the trial and coronial journey has resulted
in resentment amongst officers and others from within the Northern
Territory Police. Do you think, based on what she's said there,
that there does need to be an independent investigation.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I fully agree we don't need an independent investigation. It's
not necessary at this time. Katie. We've seen time and
time again where our members have been held when they've
done something wrong, held responsible and criminal actions being obviously portrayed.
And when you talk about the Cuman Joe Walker, that's
a prime example. After three days one of our members
was arrested and obviously ultimately resulting his acquittal later on
(05:21):
in a Supreme court. But we've seen this time and
time again. Our members are subjected to if they step
outside the boundaries in the realms of which they are
entitled to work in, they are held responsible. They are
put before the court where the court will make a
decision on their criminality.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
And it is for that reason that you've got the
confidence of the Northern Territory Police to investigate these two situations.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Definitely, Katie, and the investigation's got to take place. And
all this rhetoric in the community space telling what we
should do, what we shouldn't do. Let the people that
are experts in this field investigate the matter. If there's
any criminality to what's occurred, they'll be held responsible and
the members deemed to have committed those offenses will be
held responsible in the court. Competent jurisdiction will make a
(06:02):
determination on that.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Finny, I am going to move along because we know that.
Yesterday the Chief Minister, who's also the Northern Territory Police Minister,
Leafanocciaio fronted budget estimates Now you yesterday said that the
Chief Minister continues to dodge any responsibility for the consent
agreement negotiations, brushing off concerns as Public Service Minister Joe
(06:24):
Hersey's problem and said a minister who can barely articulate
what's even been put on the table for police when
asked about it in Parliament. Has a pay agreement been
signed off or what's the go because I know that.
It also said that your own acting police commissioner is
signing off on payoffers that fly in the face of
(06:44):
his own public statements.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, correct, Katie, and this is an ongoing incidents. The
negotiation has been going on since the first of February.
We're still going through. We received the second offer from
government as late of the fifth of June last week,
so we'll received that reverview that we've rejected that simple
because they still have departmental housing to be removed from
police officers in Darwin.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
So we've said so it's all the housing at this point.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
And it's the pay as well, it's definitely a whole package,
and they're they're tailing it as a whole package. We've
got negotiations continuing this afternoon in respect to that, and
these are ongoing. Our members are frustrated. They want to
have a fair pay deal that represents the danger that
they face every single day. So our advertisements and everything
they're coming out from the Northern Churchary Police Association is
(07:31):
showing that we're not just the normal public sector staff.
We face the danger every day. We're running towards the
danger every day, and it means that we have the
emotional scars that come across the trauma that we deal
with on a daily basis. We're not your normal public servant, Katie.
Our members are struggling. They have been struggling for a
number of years being under resource and our members are
(07:51):
quite frustrated and they want the respect that they so
fairly deserve.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So, Finny, what's on the table at the moment? Is
it three point five percent? Did I read that correctly?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
It's around three point three seven percent? What it is
we want to get it over to the national average,
which we're seeing nationally averages over five percent. And I've
said that before on this radio program. We've said this
to the negotiation team negotiating on behalf the government as well.
We want to see at least that to come across
per year, per annum for our members, to make sure
that we enter into a deal that personally I accept.
(08:24):
If I won't accept the deal, why would I expect
my members to expect that deal as well? And we
need to make sure that we're presenting the whole of
the membership in this pay fight and to make sure
that they're well renumerated for what they do.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Finny, before I let you go, The government today announcing
a twelve month trial from the first of September to
allow prooved members of the public to carry low percentage
OC spray. What do you make of it?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Where do you start? What the actual Like? I woke
up this morning to this, so I had no knowledge
of it, haven't had any discussions with government about it,
haven't hadny discussions with police about it either. It's just
disappointed we're not going to sold or a brief by
the government prior to any of these announcements. We have
a number of serious concerns and questions about and we
need urgent clarification about what they're proposing. Potentially who has
(09:11):
access to it. How do we know who's got access
to it, who's got lawful access to it? The fact
that this significant training in using the OC spray and
it's often used against you and aggravates a situation as well, Katie.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
So they say, from what I can read or from
what I have been told, that it is obviously a
lower percentage. It's what's used in Western Australia at the
moment as well. Apparently in WA they're able to use
it there. Look, I've got to tell you someone who
goes running on my own quite often, if I was
confronted by somebody, I feel like it would at least
give me something to defend myself.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
They have pros and have comes and not totally against it,
but again we want further information about how this is
going to work. Again, we're supposed to be reducing crime,
not actually arming the public to assist with reducing the crew.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Do you reckon it? Could see you know that crime
escalate or issues escalate.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
With any can con trol weapons such as OC spray.
It's going to come in the hands of people that
don't have the authority to have it. It's also going
to open up to the members of the public who
use it in relation to assaults committed if they weren't
justified to use it. Who investigates that? Being police, what
decontamination process we go through. We're strictly trained in the.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Use of it.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
We have a use of force report that goes through.
It's also checked at a number of different levels across
the organization, with oversight of the Professional Standards Command as well. Again,
I've seen situations where oc spray hasn't worked on certain people,
it's actually aggravated the situation and puts you in further danger.
So we've got to be mindful of that as well. Again, again,
I don't disagree with it. I don't totally disagree with it,
but I'd like to see further.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Information about and I think that's fair enough.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Details person and our members don't want to see this
falling into the hands of criminals and offenders using it
against our police and use it against other people. We're
already seeing the use of deoda and cans et cetera,
sprayd in people's faces to steal their car keys, to
steal their handbags. We're already seen this action in the public.
And if you don't think that this is going to
(11:03):
be in the hands of offenders out in the public,
it's going to be very shortly.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Okay, well, Finny, no doubt, plenty more to discuss on
that topic. The text line is going off on this one,
and so we will continue this discussion. It is always
good to have you on the show. Really appreciate your
time this morning.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
And also Katie, it is First Responder's Day and we're
saying thank you to our first responders. We've provided a
number of coffee shops across the Northern Territory where our
first responders can drop into and we're supporting them, just
like to obviously pass on thank you to the arch
Energized Cafe there in Yarrawonga, Maidens Lane and Catherine Bayleaf
Cafe and Tenant Creek, and also Yay's Cafe and Alice Springs.
(11:41):
So we're supporting our first responders today to say thank
you and the shouts on us. We're providing kappas and
coffee and that sort of stuff to our first responders
out in the community to say thank you on behalf
of the Northern Territory Police Association and keep doing what
you do to keep the community safe.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Yeah, absolutely, Nathan Finn, president of the Northern Territory Police Association.
Good to catch up with you mate, Thank you, thank you.
We know that this situation with the deaths in custody
has meant that there has been a real spotlight in
recent days on police. Northern Territory MP Marion Scrimdaw calling
for the Australian Federal Police last week to take over
the investigation into the Alice Springs death in custody, saying
(00:20):
it was a first step towards healing and justice. Then,
as we have just discussed, of course with Naja, a
second death in custody following the passing of a sixty
eight year old man after he was taken into protective
custody by AFP officers and was initially conveyed to the
Palmerston Watchhouse. He passed away of course at Royal Darwin
(00:41):
Hospital sometime later days later. Now joining me on the
show is Nathan Finn, the president of the Northern Territory
Police Association. Good morning to you, Finny, Good.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Morning Katy, and good morning to your listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Finny. What are members saying to you following the two
deaths in custody.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Well, first of all, Katie, I understand why your text
lines blowing up after that last interview. There's some frustrations
in the community and again, there's rhetrics out in the
community that don't know exactly what's occurred, and there's investigations
going on into that fact. We acknowledge the deep tragedy
the recent deaths in custody. There are distressing events and
no one, including a members of the police force, ever
(01:18):
want to see this occur. Katie. The Northern Church Police
Association is actively supporting the officers involved in the Allow
Springs incident. Whilst obviously these matter remain under investigation and
the other investigation as well involving the Australian Federal Police
also an investigation being appropriate mid comment further on on
the investigation as such, but the fact is, the rhetric
that's out there about him stealing a chocolate bar and
(01:40):
that sort of stuff, it's a tragedy that's occurred. Our
members didn't want this to occur. They felt that they'd
had to intervene because of the situation that was unfolding
in front of them. Violently attacking a security guard is
the reason why our members become involved and had to
take action.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Finny, as you have said, obviously want to be very
careful here in what we say. Have you spoken to
those members following following the Alice Springs deep in custody here.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Katie, as soon as we've got notification on the twenty
seventh of May, myself and that my fellow field officer
Todd Limbery traveled to Ollie Springs and to support the
members involved in the process. Even though there's a lot
of members involved in the process that actually attended the
incident in coals, it's still a stressful situation regardless of
if they've done anything wrong or haven't done anything wrong.
The investigation will look into that side of things. We're
(02:31):
there to support our members, to make sure that they're
supported in going through the process. It's not a nice process, Katie,
to go through an interview and be directed interview for
your involvement in the situation, regardless of what you thought
was right or wrong. There's still obviously that perception that
there's potentially something that they're going to look at, and
we don't want to see that. We don't want to
see our members go through that situation. We don't definitely
(02:52):
the members involved didn't want to didn't anticipate that this
would ever occur. But again, we can't go to a
situation knowing what the behavioral instincts of this person is
we haven't got that information. We have to react with
in split seconds, and our officers did that to protect
a member of the community that was under threat from
this situation.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
What do you say to the calls, you know, people
asking for the security vision to be released or CCTV
vision to be released.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, Katie, Again, that's a decision for the Northern Territory
Police Force and a decision for the investigators to conduct that.
That's the investigation they're running. We don't have any saying
that what the investigation is. Again, if there was information
suggest that, and if they could, they probably would have
released it. What we're indicating is that and we're supporting
our members the best possible way we can and advocating
(03:41):
for them to make sure they're supported throughout this whole process.
It's a tragedy. It is a tragedy. I've reached out
to members of the community. I've worked in UNIMR community.
I understand the family issues there. This person was supposed
to be in the care of someone, he wasn't in
the care of someone, and this is unfortunately led to
what's what's occurred. Our members are quite rightfully frustrated. They're
(04:04):
danned if they do dan, if they if they don't.
They can't walk past something that's occurring like this. They
have to become involved even though they're not equipped to
deal with it at the time. They haven't got police radio,
they haven't got anything else to deal with it. They
still have to respond and they still have to put
their life on the line as well in responding to
make sure the community is safe.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Finny, we know that, Marian Scrimdaw said. The investigation by
Northern Territory Police of previous previous death in custody of
nineteen year old Cumen Jai Walker following a police shooting
in Yuan Demu in twenty nineteen demonstrated the agency's integrity
and independence, but many of those involved in the investigation
(04:42):
experienced ostracism, and the trial and coronial journey has resulted
in resentment amongst officers and others from within the Northern
Territory Police. Do you think, based on what she's said there,
that there does need to be an independent investigation.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I fully agree we don't need an independent investigation. It's
not necessary at this time. Katie. We've seen time and
time again where our members have been held when they've
done something wrong, held responsible and criminal actions being obviously portrayed.
And when you talk about the Cuman Joe Walker, that's
a prime example. After three days one of our members
was arrested and obviously ultimately resulting his acquittal later on
(05:21):
in a Supreme court. But we've seen this time and
time again. Our members are subjected to if they step
outside the boundaries in the realms of which they are
entitled to work in, they are held responsible. They are
put before the court where the court will make a
decision on their criminality.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
And it is for that reason that you've got the
confidence of the Northern Territory Police to investigate these two situations.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Definitely, Katie, and the investigation's got to take place. And
all this rhetoric in the community space telling what we
should do, what we shouldn't do. Let the people that
are experts in this field investigate the matter. If there's
any criminality to what's occurred, they'll be held responsible and
the members deemed to have committed those offenses will be
held responsible in the court. Competent jurisdiction will make a
(06:02):
determination on that.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Finny, I am going to move along because we know that.
Yesterday the Chief Minister, who's also the Northern Territory Police Minister,
Leafanocciaio fronted budget estimates Now you yesterday said that the
Chief Minister continues to dodge any responsibility for the consent
agreement negotiations, brushing off concerns as Public Service Minister Joe
(06:24):
Hersey's problem and said a minister who can barely articulate
what's even been put on the table for police when
asked about it in Parliament. Has a pay agreement been
signed off or what's the go because I know that.
It also said that your own acting police commissioner is
signing off on payoffers that fly in the face of
(06:44):
his own public statements.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, correct, Katie, and this is an ongoing incidents. The
negotiation has been going on since the first of February.
We're still going through. We received the second offer from
government as late of the fifth of June last week,
so we'll received that reverview that we've rejected that simple
because they still have departmental housing to be removed from
police officers in Darwin.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
So we've said so it's all the housing at this point.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
And it's the pay as well, it's definitely a whole package,
and they're they're tailing it as a whole package. We've
got negotiations continuing this afternoon in respect to that, and
these are ongoing. Our members are frustrated. They want to
have a fair pay deal that represents the danger that
they face every single day. So our advertisements and everything
they're coming out from the Northern Churchary Police Association is
(07:31):
showing that we're not just the normal public sector staff.
We face the danger every day. We're running towards the
danger every day, and it means that we have the
emotional scars that come across the trauma that we deal
with on a daily basis. We're not your normal public servant, Katie.
Our members are struggling. They have been struggling for a
number of years being under resource and our members are
(07:51):
quite frustrated and they want the respect that they so
fairly deserve.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So, Finny, what's on the table at the moment? Is
it three point five percent? Did I read that correctly?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
It's around three point three seven percent? What it is
we want to get it over to the national average,
which we're seeing nationally averages over five percent. And I've
said that before on this radio program. We've said this
to the negotiation team negotiating on behalf the government as well.
We want to see at least that to come across
per year, per annum for our members, to make sure
that we enter into a deal that personally I accept.
(08:24):
If I won't accept the deal, why would I expect
my members to expect that deal as well? And we
need to make sure that we're presenting the whole of
the membership in this pay fight and to make sure
that they're well renumerated for what they do.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Finny, before I let you go, The government today announcing
a twelve month trial from the first of September to
allow prooved members of the public to carry low percentage
OC spray. What do you make of it?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Where do you start? What the actual Like? I woke
up this morning to this, so I had no knowledge
of it, haven't had any discussions with government about it,
haven't hadny discussions with police about it either. It's just
disappointed we're not going to sold or a brief by
the government prior to any of these announcements. We have
a number of serious concerns and questions about and we
need urgent clarification about what they're proposing. Potentially who has
(09:11):
access to it. How do we know who's got access
to it, who's got lawful access to it? The fact
that this significant training in using the OC spray and
it's often used against you and aggravates a situation as well, Katie.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
So they say, from what I can read or from
what I have been told, that it is obviously a
lower percentage. It's what's used in Western Australia at the
moment as well. Apparently in WA they're able to use
it there. Look, I've got to tell you someone who
goes running on my own quite often, if I was
confronted by somebody, I feel like it would at least
give me something to defend myself.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
They have pros and have comes and not totally against it,
but again we want further information about how this is
going to work. Again, we're supposed to be reducing crime,
not actually arming the public to assist with reducing the crew.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Do you reckon it? Could see you know that crime
escalate or issues escalate.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
With any can con trol weapons such as OC spray.
It's going to come in the hands of people that
don't have the authority to have it. It's also going
to open up to the members of the public who
use it in relation to assaults committed if they weren't
justified to use it. Who investigates that? Being police, what
decontamination process we go through. We're strictly trained in the.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Use of it.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
We have a use of force report that goes through.
It's also checked at a number of different levels across
the organization, with oversight of the Professional Standards Command as well. Again,
I've seen situations where oc spray hasn't worked on certain people,
it's actually aggravated the situation and puts you in further danger.
So we've got to be mindful of that as well. Again, again,
I don't disagree with it. I don't totally disagree with it,
but I'd like to see further.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Information about and I think that's fair enough.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Details person and our members don't want to see this
falling into the hands of criminals and offenders using it
against our police and use it against other people. We're
already seeing the use of deoda and cans et cetera,
sprayd in people's faces to steal their car keys, to
steal their handbags. We're already seen this action in the public.
And if you don't think that this is going to
(11:03):
be in the hands of offenders out in the public,
it's going to be very shortly.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Okay, well, Finny, no doubt, plenty more to discuss on
that topic. The text line is going off on this one,
and so we will continue this discussion. It is always
good to have you on the show. Really appreciate your
time this morning.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
And also Katie, it is First Responder's Day and we're
saying thank you to our first responders. We've provided a
number of coffee shops across the Northern Territory where our
first responders can drop into and we're supporting them, just
like to obviously pass on thank you to the arch
Energized Cafe there in Yarrawonga, Maidens Lane and Catherine Bayleaf
Cafe and Tenant Creek, and also Yay's Cafe and Alice Springs.
(11:41):
So we're supporting our first responders today to say thank
you and the shouts on us. We're providing kappas and
coffee and that sort of stuff to our first responders
out in the community to say thank you on behalf
of the Northern Territory Police Association and keep doing what
you do to keep the community safe.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Yeah, absolutely, Nathan Finn, president of the Northern Territory Police Association.
Good to catch up with you mate, Thank you, thank you.
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