November 5, 2025 • 31 mins
We sit down with Dr Sharonne Zaks AM, a Melbourne-based dentist internationally recognised for pioneering trauma-informed dental care.
Sharonne explains how the dental chair—one of the most vulnerable places a person can be—can re-trigger memories for survivors of trauma. Her work has transformed how dentists think about trust, consent, and patient empowerment, leading to the Australian Dental Council adopting trauma-informed care into all dental training.
Want to learn more about Sharonne's work? Go to zaksdental.com.au
The Double A Chattery podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice. No doctor/patient relationship is formed and this podcast is no substitute for professional psychological or other medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. The use of information in this podcast is at the listener’s own risk. Listeners should seek the help of their health care professionals for any medical conditions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is for general information only and should not
be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their
healthcare professionals for specific medical advice before we begin. Today's
episode contains descriptions of sexual assault and trauma. Please make
a wise decision about your choice to listen.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hello, I'm Amanda Keller and I'm Anita mcgrae and welcome
to Double A Chattery. And I'm excited about today, Anita.
This is somebody that you've wanted to interview for some time.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I've got to say, Amana, I listened to this woman
give a talk as part of a conference I had attended.
I can't remember when, I can't remember where. It was
a few years ago, but she talked about an issue
that I had actually never considered before in my work
as a forensic practitioner, and it was it was an
(01:08):
extraordinary talk, and I just it has stayed with me
as as a subject that is fascinating, but that she
came across this Sharon Zach as a compassionate, caring, unique person.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I'd never heard of such a thing as a trauma dentist.
I can't wait to hear his story. We'll talk to
her next. Doctor, Sharon Zachs is a Melbourne based dentist
and educator internationally recognized for pioneering trauma informed dental care.
(01:56):
Let's break that down. Let's meet the woman herself. Sharon.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Hello, Hello, thank you very much for having me on.
It's an honor to be.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Here, pleasure. We are so delighted to have you. And
I've I've got to say that, as I've said in
the intwer that I heard you give us a talk
a keynote a few years ago at a conference that
I can't remember, but I remember your talk because I
remember thinking, I have never heard of this particular area
(02:26):
of work. It's basically something that you have really brought
into the forefront and really developed a lot of the protocols.
And so I'd really like to hear about how what
brought you into doing trauma dentistry like us. Tell us
a little bit about your background, Tron.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well, from the very first moment I started to work
as a dentist and began to see patients, I found
that I had an instant rapport with people with dental
anxiety and phobia and a great success working together. We
just connected and so yes, very instantly I just absolutely
loved working together with patients to help them overcome fears.
(03:09):
And I absolutely find being in this trusted role with
people in their most vulnerable state such an honor and
incredible reward, particularly regarding helping people to release shame and
deep embarrassment. The mouth is just so loaded emotionally, and
people carry so much shame about it, and so I
(03:29):
just can really it's hard to put words to how
moving it is when people feel fully accepted with no
judgment about the things that they're most ashamed about, and
that kind of allows people to sort of have their
voice back and to be able to recover a deep
(03:49):
sense of dignity and agency that trauma has lost. And
particularly in twenty twelve, I met a survivor of sexual
assault who was very unusual in being open about her
history and her fears and her triggers for memories in
the dental setting. So it was sort of working together
with her that brought me into the idea of trauma
(04:12):
more specifically. But from the very beginning, from nineteen ninety eight,
I've been working with people with dental anxiety and phobia
and absolutely loving it.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
We all feel nervous going to a dentist, but you're
talking about something much more than that. What is it
about the mouth that gives people this anxiety?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
You know, Dentistry is very unique in the health professions
because we're working with people in such a vulnerable setting.
There's an enormous power imbalance in not just a physical
sense in that people are lying in our laps, but
also in a psychological and emotional sense. And so we're
all vulnerable in the dental setting. And then there's the
(04:49):
mouth itself, which is very sensitive and deeply symbolic and primal. Really,
it's linked to our appetites and consumption. The mouth. It's
very intimate if you think of kissing and sex. It's
so linked to how we interact with people and the
world every day. Really, our mouths are how we connect
with each other, so speaking and smiling and laughing and
(05:12):
singing and kissing, and so they're absolutely critical for all
of our relationships and for our self worth and confidence
and mental health. And so if you think about teeth,
they're very symbolic of our power and strength and confidence.
They're sort of the part of our animal body that attacks,
and so the loss of teeth can just be devastating
(05:32):
emotionally and psychologically and really disempowering and trigger deep shame.
And so yes, dentistry and the mouth are just so
unique because we're working with people in such a vulnerable
way physically and emotionally, and also on such a sensitive
and intimate personal part of the body.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I read an article just that was recently in the
Conversation and it talked about when people are shown pictures
of people with decayed teeth that participants in this study
said that the person was lower in intelligence and social
skills and confidence and self esteem and they didn't appear
as happy where there was decay.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
That was judgment we might when we see images.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Absolutely, So it is so interesting that often the most
vulnerable people in our communities are you know, people with
either through financial issues or through trauma issues, haven't or
can't go and access the the dental care that that
(06:37):
may be available to them because of that anxiety. But
also just thinking about how do like, I can't imagine
being a vulnerable person and saying I need to get
this done, but how do I do that with a
dentist who may not understand? So, how do you communicate
with your patients about the work that you do.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
I want to pick up on what you just mentioned.
It is enormously critical our smile and our mouths. It's
one of the main places our eyes are drawn to
when we look at faces, and a lot of the
assessments we make based on people's appearance are unconscious. And yes,
they've done. There's a lot of evidence to show that
not only do we judge people in terms of their
(07:23):
teeth and mouths and smile regarding their self esteem and employability.
So it's massive for job interviews and physical health and
personal hygiene, but also it goes into trustworthiness and all
of these areas, just as you're describing how outgoing people
are educated and so the transformation that can happen when
(07:45):
we restore oral health is incredibly profound, and it's just
such a gateway to recovering people's dignity and agency and
so on. But to answer your question regarding how I
communicate with patients, sort of, my name's got out there
now because there's been a lot of media attention from
around the world. I didn't realize I was the first
(08:07):
person to develop this, but as it happens, so that's
very exciting to be able to help so many people
around the world. Every week I'm inundated with emails from
people survivors from around the world and dentists wanting help
and training in this area and support organization. So it's very,
very exciting. But also for me being a quiet introvert,
(08:30):
it's been a great challenge to confront public speaking anxiety
and speak in front of thousands of people. But back
to your question, sorry, regarding how people come to me
and we work together, the real foundation is building the
right relationship from the beginning, really setting things up. So really,
(08:52):
in a summary way, it's about building trust and safety
and taking the mindset of believing in people's strengths and
capability to handle things even when they don't, especially when
they don't, and using their strength to empower them through
the treatment process. Moving away from that old paternalistic medical
model of focusing on a diagnosis and what's wrong with
(09:14):
people into a much more sort of motivating, positive focus
regarding capability. I can tell you quite a lovely story
of a patient if you like, in that regard, and
then yes, setting up an equal status collaborative partnership with
people to work towards shared treatment goals. So these are
(09:34):
the sort of foundational aspects of how people can feel comfortable,
particularly regarding not fearing judgment, so they can really bring
anything up, their most sort of crazy worries and just
feel validated and heard with no risk of being shut
down or rushed or sort of judged in any way
(09:56):
or shamed. So and the last sort of big foundational
aspect of my approach is to offer choices wherever possible,
so because trauma takes away people's power and control. By definition,
a traumatic event is so overwhelming that we can't cope.
It's just sort of beyond the level of stress. It's
(10:16):
a real shock to the system. All trauma involves this
loss of power and control, So my approach with patients
is really geared to redressing this power in balance and
giving back power, control and choice at all times, from
beginning to the middle to the end, in hundreds of
small ways. But the real sort of lynchpin and sort
of foundation for everything else to work is the relationship
(10:39):
itself and really making sure that people don't feel judged
no matter what and fully accepted. And it's a revolution
for a lot of survivors. Sometimes it's the dental relationship
has been the first time they've been able to have
that trust and someone believe in them and have a
relationship that's not based on a victim perpetrated dynamic and
(11:02):
so on.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Wow, you mentioned earlier that you work with victims of
sexual assault. Yes, people with the history of sexual abuse.
What role, what do they bring to their horror of
going to the dentist, what's specific to them?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Well, this work for me started when I met this
patient in twenty twelve and she mentioned that when I
lie her back, she gets flashbacks from when her uncle
was raping me because of the dental environment. And that's
when I sort of recognized the penny dropped and I thought, gosh, actually,
there are many parallels between dental visits and sexual assault.
(11:40):
And I went home and I wrote this huge list
and I couldn't believe it. So I'll tell you a few.
Because of all the trauma events, all the kinds of trauma,
sexual assault is the most similar of all to dental visits.
And so in sexual abuse and sexual assault, the mouth
is very commonly involved. It's usually involved. So yes, these
(12:02):
are some thoughts I had when this patient said that
to me, which is that people are lying in the
lap of a trusted authority figure, so it's a reminder
of childhood abuse. People are immobilized in the dental context,
so it's a reminder of being pinned down. People feel
like they can't speak, or they might actually not be
(12:22):
able to speak with instruments in the mouth, so that's
a reminder of being silenced. Having the dentist above you,
and accidental touching. Due to the close proximity of bodies,
there's a lot of invasion of personal space in the
dental context, and the horizontal chair position is often the
same position as the abuse, so it's a direct trigger
and reminder. Penetration of the mouth with fingers and instruments,
(12:46):
having the mouth filled up and holding open for a
long time, they're all reminders of oral rape and not
knowing what to expect or what will happen next. That
kind of mirrors that experience. Trust has already been broken,
and soeople are really understandably scared of being betrayed again.
The smell of latex gloves can be a reminder of
(13:06):
condoms and the taste of blood in the mouth. I
could go on and on, but really the whole sort
of scenario is that people feel like they're under someone
else's control and like they can just do anything they
want to them. And so that's why what I've developed
is directly to address that, to really restore power, control
and choice and in the process bring people back their
(13:30):
voice so they can have a really refined control over
exactly what's happening to their body and agency like they've
never had it before in the dental setting. It's so exciting.
People just get thrilled when they're able to sort of
ask for little changes, can we have the blind up?
And then they laugh and say, oh my god, I've
never been able to ask for this before. And that
(13:51):
sort of agency and voice then gets taken beyond the
dental environment out into the rest of their lives. And
that's what's just so inspiring.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Wow, when you see and what you've come up with
and being able to take that to the world. What's
the protocol? What are you teaching other dentists as to
how to deal with all this?
Speaker 3 (14:07):
So I go through all of the principles of the
trauma informed approach and exactly in great detail how to
build trust and safety from bringing compassion and empathy and
replacing any judgment with curiosity and having solid boundaries. And
yet there's a whole big sort of hours of lecturing
(14:29):
that I give regarding exactly how to bring the trauma
informed approach into the dental context, how to empower patients,
how to sort of work out treatment goals together moving
out of that old caretaking approach into that collaborative approach
and get people motivated and inspired to look after their
teeth and own the process of their treatment. And then
(14:52):
I go through a huge amount of clinical tips. So
I've developed this big toolbox for before, during, and after
appointments for exactly how we can give that power control
and choice and to really make in fact make the
experience fun for people, not only not traumatic, but actually
go into that positive, enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Direction you mentioned, Sorry, no I had i am if
you are extraordinary? Sure on you really are? You said
that you're trying to empower your patients. Sometimes it might
(15:34):
be pulling the blind up. What are other ways to
give us insight into what might relieve these patients of
their trauma in a setting like that.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Oh? Absolutely, It's very customized to each person, So there
are no formulas or recipes. It's very much tailored to
each person. And so when we meet, I sit and
really give undivided, unhurried attention to listen to exactly what's
happened that might have been traumatic in the past, exactly
what their fears are, their triggers for memories, and then
(16:04):
we work out strategies together. It can often involve quite
a lot of lateral thinking and creativity, which is really fun.
I've brought in a live band to the surgery, had
a massuse, got in a disco ball. I'm really open
to absolutely anything, and humor is a massive part of
helping people to release tension. So bringing in Yeah, I've
(16:25):
got jokes timed to different dental procedures. You know, impression
material setting takes ten minutes, so I've got a really
funny joke that goes for that time. So that's one
of the tools that I find indispensable. Play and humor
are kind of the opposite experiences to trauma in many ways,
but I'll tell you some other ones. So in terms
of beforehand, I encourage people to bring a support person
(16:49):
to their visits, and they're helpful in so many ways,
and to do something relaxing before the visit and plan
something fun that they can look forward to for afterwards,
and when they're in the room, I'm really mindful of
what people are seeing and hearing and experiencing with all
of their senses, because the dental environment is just so
confronting in that regard, and so when we talk, I
(17:10):
make sure our eyes are about the same height. I
don't stand over people and avoid hovering as I work.
Really respect people's personal space, and we often have their
favorite music playing and the door open if they prefer,
and I cover all the sharp instruments on the tray
so that people are looking at those. And people often
love using the lead apron as a weighted blanket or
(17:32):
holding a comforting object, and so all the sensory aspects
are considered. And then in conversations I really make sure
to go through all of the past bad experiences and
find out exactly what happened and work out ways to
avoid anything like that again. And I ask people to
suggest ways to make things easier for them, and I'm
really again open to anything with no judgment. So that's
(17:56):
the whole aim is just how can we make things easier.
Body language is utterly critical, so that's the main way
our messages are sent, actually, and so I'm monitoring my
body to ensure it's relaxed and open the whole time,
my facial expressions, tone of voice, talking volume. I keep
my touch very gentle, respectful, and especially intentional, and so
(18:19):
body language is enormous. And regarding the informed consent process,
people are often too nervous to be listening fully because
they're so anxious. So before making any treatment decisions, I
make sure that people are calm. I might give them
some written information to consider at home first and really
make sure that they're present and in a good place
to make decisions. And then in terms of procedures, I
(18:41):
break things up to suit each patient and tell people
exactly how long things will take, and yeah, it's all
sort of giving them control at every point. And then
regarding during procedures, unfortunately, trauma often takes away people's ability
to speak up and have agency, and so I'll always
(19:01):
observe people to see how they're managing the whole time
and stop if I think they might need it. And
so that's really really common in survives of all kinds
of trauma, that yeah, they've lost their agency and voice,
and so yes, my dental assistant is also monitoring everything.
We work very closely together, and then humor of course,
(19:23):
and after the appointment, we yeah, people usually like to
book their next visit on the same day so that
they don't fall back into fear driven avoidance, because often
the longer people wait, the more scared they get, so
they like to just have that already in there. And
then I always call people after the appointment to see
how they're recovering and answer any questions and just to
(19:45):
show that I care, so I really want to know
how they're going. So my gosh, I talk about this
for hours, but I'm aware of time. So that's just
a few examples.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Is this stuff you wish every dentist new?
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Absolutely, I am on a massive mission and to hopefully
allow this trauma informed approach to be integrated as standard
in dental practice and even more across all human services,
so that we can all be aware of trauma and
its impacts, particularly regarding how to recognize certain fears and
behaviors and not take perhaps certain difficult behaviors personally aggression,
(20:22):
and be able to be compassionate so that we understand
where it's coming from and so on. But with regard
to all dentists knowing this one really exciting announcement by
the Australian Dental Council recently is that my body of work,
the trauma informed dental skill set and knowledge, is now
going to be compulsory to include in all the undergraduate
dental courses around Australia. So it means that all newly
(20:45):
graduating dentists will be able to sort of recognize and
respond sensitively and refer survivors of trauma including family violence
and so on, and that can hopefully connect people to
the services they need which will save their life lives.
And yes, the UNI sort of peace having that education
(21:06):
built in from the beginning will allow many more patients
in the community to be seen and not referred to specialists.
And also I'm in the process because there's been such
an enormous demand for this work. I've been actually overrun
with people flying in from across Australia to see me
and requests from support organizations and so on. I'm in
(21:27):
the process of setting up what, as far as I'm aware,
will be the world's first national social enterprise trauma informed
dental service, specifically built, purpose built with input from survivors
to serve people impacted by all kinds of trauma and
abuse with dental anxiety and phobia, and in particular people
(21:48):
with complex situations that can't be accommodated in the general
dental setting. So it will allow thousands of people in
desperate need who are excluded from the current dental system
to access care. And it's going to be funded externally
and staffed by dentists and doctors and psychologists such as yourself, Anita,
and lawyers and a whole team of experts working together
(22:10):
to provide the best quality of care. And at the moment,
I'm just in the process of looking for people to
join the board of directors and advice and help with
accounting and business development and accessing funding and building a
website and donation of equipment and materials. So it's an
enormous project to take on, but it's so needed in
(22:31):
the community and I'm very excited about it. Where the
education I'm doing will form part of the training of
the clinic, and the physical clinic will be very intentionally
set up to calm the nervous system with all the
site sound smells, angles of the walls and so on,
and they'll be research. So I'm extremely excited about this,
(22:53):
and I hope that it really helps to address some
of the inequities in access to dental care in Australia.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Fantastic doing the Lord's workshure on.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
I don't know what to say.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
That My grandfather was a dentist and my grandmother used
to chase me around the house with a hanky to
pull out my loose tooth when I was young. So
you are you are a revelation to hear that it matters,
it goes.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yes, I'm glad that your all been removed.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
No more hankys, no more, no more trauma, even though
the treatment may take technically longer, and that the people
that might be coming in to see you may have
avoided dental work for a very long time. That it
seems as though you are taking people on a journey
towards healing that is just holistic and respectful, and you know,
(23:54):
healing in a way that is not just about making
sure that their mouth looks beautiful, but about oral health,
about about recovery.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
You know.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
I'm so impressed.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Oh, thank you, Yes, Oh my gosh. I cannot begin
to tell you how significant oral health is for survivors
of trauma in particular, and the impact we can have
as dentists is just so profound. So in my lectures
and educating dentists, I really emphasize the inspiring, rewarding aspects
of just how much we can help people even to
(24:28):
physically heal their trauma, because we're working so closely with
people's bodies, and the body carries a strong visceral memory
of trauma, So when people are less triggered and less anxious,
their trauma actually heals to a lot of survivors of
trauma aren't aware that their dental struggles are related to
their trauma histories at all. They don't realize, and so
they're often isolated in shame and blame themselves for their neglect,
(24:50):
and a lot of dentists sort of haven't been aware
and accidentally retrigger memories and retraumatize people without realizing it.
I'll tell you about a survivor of sexual assaul who
I met, and she was in her early fifties when
we met, and like many survivors of sexual assault, she
used to just come in and sit on the dental
chair and burst into tears. And she hadn't come for
(25:12):
many years to a dentist because of her dental phobia,
and so she needed a lot of work. Things were
very advanced when we met, and she was really embarrassed
about this, and one of the things she needed was
to have her wisdom teeth out. They were all decaying
and causing her pain, and she couldn't understand why I
believed in her capability to handle this, and she thought
(25:33):
the general anaesthetic was going to be her only option,
but she really didn't want it, and she told me
that she felt broken and hopeless, And so every time
she came in, I just kept reinforcing how resilient and
courageous she was with concrete examples that I could see
from her behavior over the visits, and that belief in her.
(25:53):
My belief in her gave her the courage to start
challenging herself and taking some little risks bit by bit,
and so she started to trust that she didn't need
sedatives before her appointments, and we'd gradually do more in
one session and over time, with lots of small victories
along the way. She proved to herself that she could
manage everything, actually, and her courage and determination in facing
(26:16):
her fears was so inspiring to be with. As we
went and two years after we met, she came in
one day and said, she just sort of announced it.
I'm ready take them out. And so I took her
wisdom teeth out in the chair under local anesthetic, and
although it was quite a challenge for her, she coped really,
really well, and she was so proud about herself at
(26:37):
the end, proud of herself, and I remember we were
actually both in tears because she'd been petrified of having
a wisdom teeth out for decades and she'd finally done
it in the chair. So it was a really enormous achievement.
And a few weeks after this, she recovered well and
she asked for an expansion of her role at work
(26:58):
that she'd been wanting for years but she'd been just
too too shy to ask. And she got it and
then absolutely loved this new role. And four months later
she got a really big promotion and now she manages
a whole team. And she came in I still see her,
and she came in and she said, you know, all
of our experiences gave me the confidence to go for
(27:20):
it at work. And so that's just one tiny example,
but there are hundreds and hundreds of the same kind of.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Idea, not a tiny example, just an amazing example.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Thank you, Charon, Charon, thank you for all of for
all that you've given us today and all you're giving
the dental profession and all you're giving society. What an
extraordinary thing you're doing. And thank you.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Oh, thank you very much for having me on. And
I wanted to say thank you for the piano Amanda.
I absolutely loved it. I'm a piano player. I thought
you just have had a wonderful job. And also congratulations
on your hundredth episode. That's a really.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Significant Thank you, Charon, thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Oh, thank you wonderful to chat. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Oh, let's get to our glimmers. I'm just I am
just overwhelmed by today's episode.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Sharon is my glimmer. I mean, I'm stunned at the
extraordinary nature of the work she's doing. And when you
hear it, it's so obvious, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
It's so obvious, and she's so passionate and she's been
so passionate for over twenty five years about this. This
is just amazing.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Okay, all right, how about I go with a different
glimmoll Let's let's change gears a little white sula. I
saw this that in Tokyo monks spend hours every day
smoothing fabric, not for perfect folds, not so that they
don't have creases, but for in a calm. So this
is almost like a why ironing is good for you?
They say, when your hand moves slowly, your mind stops running,
(28:58):
the steam rises, the scent of cotton mixes with your breath,
and your body finds rhythm. In that moment, the brain
shifts from anxiety to focus. No mantras, no poses, no
mindfulness causes, just an iron repetition and the quiet feeling
of taking your mind back. So though apparently, Harvard neurobiologists
(29:18):
found that such repetitive actions like ironing lower anxiety levels
by twenty three percent.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Do you like ironing?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I don't mind it. If I'm just going to stand
in front of the TV and iron and there collars
and tricky things, it is quite soothing.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
There is something you think about, especially about something that's
really wrinkled, and then you smooth it out and it
just looks, it just hangs beautifully. I do like that.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
So maybe you're seeing it as the pleasure of ironing.
It but having the nice result without realizing that what
you're also liking is the calming nature of that.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, there is something quite repetitive and meditative about doing that.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, so that's a glimmer. Think about the meditation while
you're doing your ironing be such a chore.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Maybe maybe my glimmer is well, is about how my
two year old grandson actually went and darped me in
yesterday for what I was taking care of him last night,
and he was He stayed for dinner and and.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Make some gram He stayed for dinner. We opened a
bottle of kiante.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
And anyways, my son, his father went and picked him
up and he called me on the way home and said,
you know, Logan has gone and darbed you in. And
I'm like, what do you mean? And he said, well,
he said, Logan said, Grandma gave me a knife. I
had given him like a child's knife, because he really
(30:44):
likes trying to go and cut his pasta up and.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So child's And are you sure is it your Canadian
version of a child's knife?
Speaker 1 (30:52):
It's probably a machete, were an axe.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Come on, knowing you and it probably is. It probably is.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
It was a so so have had to go and
call and say that my grands had had ratted you out.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, Grandma gave me a ne I don't see that
on a Hallmark card for Christmas to you.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
It's one of my prime prime bear and grandparenting Mormons.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I'll tell you take it and run with it as
it were, Just don't run with the scissors.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Well.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I have found today's episode of Double a Chattery rewarding
and extraordinary in so many ways. And now I know
that you're a serial killer, and.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
So that's great, and there's always things to discover about me.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Ama. We'll leave it at that. We'll see you next time. Bye.
This podcast is for general information only and should not
be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their
healthcare professionals for specific medical advice before we begin. Today's
episode contains descriptions of sexual assault and trauma. Please make
a wise decision about your choice to listen.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hello, I'm Amanda Keller and I'm Anita mcgrae and welcome
to Double A Chattery. And I'm excited about today, Anita.
This is somebody that you've wanted to interview for some time.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I've got to say, Amana, I listened to this woman
give a talk as part of a conference I had attended.
I can't remember when, I can't remember where. It was
a few years ago, but she talked about an issue
that I had actually never considered before in my work
as a forensic practitioner, and it was it was an
(01:08):
extraordinary talk, and I just it has stayed with me
as as a subject that is fascinating, but that she
came across this Sharon Zach as a compassionate, caring, unique person.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I'd never heard of such a thing as a trauma dentist.
I can't wait to hear his story. We'll talk to
her next. Doctor, Sharon Zachs is a Melbourne based dentist
and educator internationally recognized for pioneering trauma informed dental care.
(01:56):
Let's break that down. Let's meet the woman herself. Sharon.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Hello, Hello, thank you very much for having me on.
It's an honor to be.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Here, pleasure. We are so delighted to have you. And
I've I've got to say that, as I've said in
the intwer that I heard you give us a talk
a keynote a few years ago at a conference that
I can't remember, but I remember your talk because I
remember thinking, I have never heard of this particular area
(02:26):
of work. It's basically something that you have really brought
into the forefront and really developed a lot of the protocols.
And so I'd really like to hear about how what
brought you into doing trauma dentistry like us. Tell us
a little bit about your background, Tron.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well, from the very first moment I started to work
as a dentist and began to see patients, I found
that I had an instant rapport with people with dental
anxiety and phobia and a great success working together. We
just connected and so yes, very instantly I just absolutely
loved working together with patients to help them overcome fears.
(03:09):
And I absolutely find being in this trusted role with
people in their most vulnerable state such an honor and
incredible reward, particularly regarding helping people to release shame and
deep embarrassment. The mouth is just so loaded emotionally, and
people carry so much shame about it, and so I
(03:29):
just can really it's hard to put words to how
moving it is when people feel fully accepted with no
judgment about the things that they're most ashamed about, and
that kind of allows people to sort of have their
voice back and to be able to recover a deep
(03:49):
sense of dignity and agency that trauma has lost. And
particularly in twenty twelve, I met a survivor of sexual
assault who was very unusual in being open about her
history and her fears and her triggers for memories in
the dental setting. So it was sort of working together
with her that brought me into the idea of trauma
(04:12):
more specifically. But from the very beginning, from nineteen ninety eight,
I've been working with people with dental anxiety and phobia
and absolutely loving it.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
We all feel nervous going to a dentist, but you're
talking about something much more than that. What is it
about the mouth that gives people this anxiety?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
You know, Dentistry is very unique in the health professions
because we're working with people in such a vulnerable setting.
There's an enormous power imbalance in not just a physical
sense in that people are lying in our laps, but
also in a psychological and emotional sense. And so we're
all vulnerable in the dental setting. And then there's the
(04:49):
mouth itself, which is very sensitive and deeply symbolic and primal. Really,
it's linked to our appetites and consumption. The mouth. It's
very intimate if you think of kissing and sex. It's
so linked to how we interact with people and the
world every day. Really, our mouths are how we connect
with each other, so speaking and smiling and laughing and
(05:12):
singing and kissing, and so they're absolutely critical for all
of our relationships and for our self worth and confidence
and mental health. And so if you think about teeth,
they're very symbolic of our power and strength and confidence.
They're sort of the part of our animal body that attacks,
and so the loss of teeth can just be devastating
(05:32):
emotionally and psychologically and really disempowering and trigger deep shame.
And so yes, dentistry and the mouth are just so
unique because we're working with people in such a vulnerable
way physically and emotionally, and also on such a sensitive
and intimate personal part of the body.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I read an article just that was recently in the
Conversation and it talked about when people are shown pictures
of people with decayed teeth that participants in this study
said that the person was lower in intelligence and social
skills and confidence and self esteem and they didn't appear
as happy where there was decay.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
That was judgment we might when we see images.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Absolutely, So it is so interesting that often the most
vulnerable people in our communities are you know, people with
either through financial issues or through trauma issues, haven't or
can't go and access the the dental care that that
(06:37):
may be available to them because of that anxiety. But
also just thinking about how do like, I can't imagine
being a vulnerable person and saying I need to get
this done, but how do I do that with a
dentist who may not understand? So, how do you communicate
with your patients about the work that you do.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
I want to pick up on what you just mentioned.
It is enormously critical our smile and our mouths. It's
one of the main places our eyes are drawn to
when we look at faces, and a lot of the
assessments we make based on people's appearance are unconscious. And yes,
they've done. There's a lot of evidence to show that
not only do we judge people in terms of their
(07:23):
teeth and mouths and smile regarding their self esteem and employability.
So it's massive for job interviews and physical health and
personal hygiene, but also it goes into trustworthiness and all
of these areas, just as you're describing how outgoing people
are educated and so the transformation that can happen when
(07:45):
we restore oral health is incredibly profound, and it's just
such a gateway to recovering people's dignity and agency and
so on. But to answer your question regarding how I
communicate with patients, sort of, my name's got out there
now because there's been a lot of media attention from
around the world. I didn't realize I was the first
(08:07):
person to develop this, but as it happens, so that's
very exciting to be able to help so many people
around the world. Every week I'm inundated with emails from
people survivors from around the world and dentists wanting help
and training in this area and support organization. So it's very,
very exciting. But also for me being a quiet introvert,
(08:30):
it's been a great challenge to confront public speaking anxiety
and speak in front of thousands of people. But back
to your question, sorry, regarding how people come to me
and we work together, the real foundation is building the
right relationship from the beginning, really setting things up. So really,
(08:52):
in a summary way, it's about building trust and safety
and taking the mindset of believing in people's strengths and
capability to handle things even when they don't, especially when
they don't, and using their strength to empower them through
the treatment process. Moving away from that old paternalistic medical
model of focusing on a diagnosis and what's wrong with
(09:14):
people into a much more sort of motivating, positive focus
regarding capability. I can tell you quite a lovely story
of a patient if you like, in that regard, and
then yes, setting up an equal status collaborative partnership with
people to work towards shared treatment goals. So these are
(09:34):
the sort of foundational aspects of how people can feel comfortable,
particularly regarding not fearing judgment, so they can really bring
anything up, their most sort of crazy worries and just
feel validated and heard with no risk of being shut
down or rushed or sort of judged in any way
(09:56):
or shamed. So and the last sort of big foundational
aspect of my approach is to offer choices wherever possible,
so because trauma takes away people's power and control. By definition,
a traumatic event is so overwhelming that we can't cope.
It's just sort of beyond the level of stress. It's
(10:16):
a real shock to the system. All trauma involves this
loss of power and control, So my approach with patients
is really geared to redressing this power in balance and
giving back power, control and choice at all times, from
beginning to the middle to the end, in hundreds of
small ways. But the real sort of lynchpin and sort
of foundation for everything else to work is the relationship
(10:39):
itself and really making sure that people don't feel judged
no matter what and fully accepted. And it's a revolution
for a lot of survivors. Sometimes it's the dental relationship
has been the first time they've been able to have
that trust and someone believe in them and have a
relationship that's not based on a victim perpetrated dynamic and
(11:02):
so on.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Wow, you mentioned earlier that you work with victims of
sexual assault. Yes, people with the history of sexual abuse.
What role, what do they bring to their horror of
going to the dentist, what's specific to them?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Well, this work for me started when I met this
patient in twenty twelve and she mentioned that when I
lie her back, she gets flashbacks from when her uncle
was raping me because of the dental environment. And that's
when I sort of recognized the penny dropped and I thought, gosh, actually,
there are many parallels between dental visits and sexual assault.
(11:40):
And I went home and I wrote this huge list
and I couldn't believe it. So I'll tell you a few.
Because of all the trauma events, all the kinds of trauma,
sexual assault is the most similar of all to dental visits.
And so in sexual abuse and sexual assault, the mouth
is very commonly involved. It's usually involved. So yes, these
(12:02):
are some thoughts I had when this patient said that
to me, which is that people are lying in the
lap of a trusted authority figure, so it's a reminder
of childhood abuse. People are immobilized in the dental context,
so it's a reminder of being pinned down. People feel
like they can't speak, or they might actually not be
(12:22):
able to speak with instruments in the mouth, so that's
a reminder of being silenced. Having the dentist above you,
and accidental touching. Due to the close proximity of bodies,
there's a lot of invasion of personal space in the
dental context, and the horizontal chair position is often the
same position as the abuse, so it's a direct trigger
and reminder. Penetration of the mouth with fingers and instruments,
(12:46):
having the mouth filled up and holding open for a
long time, they're all reminders of oral rape and not
knowing what to expect or what will happen next. That
kind of mirrors that experience. Trust has already been broken,
and soeople are really understandably scared of being betrayed again.
The smell of latex gloves can be a reminder of
(13:06):
condoms and the taste of blood in the mouth. I
could go on and on, but really the whole sort
of scenario is that people feel like they're under someone
else's control and like they can just do anything they
want to them. And so that's why what I've developed
is directly to address that, to really restore power, control
and choice and in the process bring people back their
(13:30):
voice so they can have a really refined control over
exactly what's happening to their body and agency like they've
never had it before in the dental setting. It's so exciting.
People just get thrilled when they're able to sort of
ask for little changes, can we have the blind up?
And then they laugh and say, oh my god, I've
never been able to ask for this before. And that
(13:51):
sort of agency and voice then gets taken beyond the
dental environment out into the rest of their lives. And
that's what's just so inspiring.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Wow, when you see and what you've come up with
and being able to take that to the world. What's
the protocol? What are you teaching other dentists as to
how to deal with all this?
Speaker 3 (14:07):
So I go through all of the principles of the
trauma informed approach and exactly in great detail how to
build trust and safety from bringing compassion and empathy and
replacing any judgment with curiosity and having solid boundaries. And
yet there's a whole big sort of hours of lecturing
(14:29):
that I give regarding exactly how to bring the trauma
informed approach into the dental context, how to empower patients,
how to sort of work out treatment goals together moving
out of that old caretaking approach into that collaborative approach
and get people motivated and inspired to look after their
teeth and own the process of their treatment. And then
(14:52):
I go through a huge amount of clinical tips. So
I've developed this big toolbox for before, during, and after
appointments for exactly how we can give that power control
and choice and to really make in fact make the
experience fun for people, not only not traumatic, but actually
go into that positive, enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Direction you mentioned, Sorry, no I had i am if
you are extraordinary? Sure on you really are? You said
that you're trying to empower your patients. Sometimes it might
(15:34):
be pulling the blind up. What are other ways to
give us insight into what might relieve these patients of
their trauma in a setting like that.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Oh? Absolutely, It's very customized to each person, So there
are no formulas or recipes. It's very much tailored to
each person. And so when we meet, I sit and
really give undivided, unhurried attention to listen to exactly what's
happened that might have been traumatic in the past, exactly
what their fears are, their triggers for memories, and then
(16:04):
we work out strategies together. It can often involve quite
a lot of lateral thinking and creativity, which is really fun.
I've brought in a live band to the surgery, had
a massuse, got in a disco ball. I'm really open
to absolutely anything, and humor is a massive part of
helping people to release tension. So bringing in Yeah, I've
(16:25):
got jokes timed to different dental procedures. You know, impression
material setting takes ten minutes, so I've got a really
funny joke that goes for that time. So that's one
of the tools that I find indispensable. Play and humor
are kind of the opposite experiences to trauma in many ways,
but I'll tell you some other ones. So in terms
of beforehand, I encourage people to bring a support person
(16:49):
to their visits, and they're helpful in so many ways,
and to do something relaxing before the visit and plan
something fun that they can look forward to for afterwards,
and when they're in the room, I'm really mindful of
what people are seeing and hearing and experiencing with all
of their senses, because the dental environment is just so
confronting in that regard, and so when we talk, I
(17:10):
make sure our eyes are about the same height. I
don't stand over people and avoid hovering as I work.
Really respect people's personal space, and we often have their
favorite music playing and the door open if they prefer,
and I cover all the sharp instruments on the tray
so that people are looking at those. And people often
love using the lead apron as a weighted blanket or
(17:32):
holding a comforting object, and so all the sensory aspects
are considered. And then in conversations I really make sure
to go through all of the past bad experiences and
find out exactly what happened and work out ways to
avoid anything like that again. And I ask people to
suggest ways to make things easier for them, and I'm
really again open to anything with no judgment. So that's
(17:56):
the whole aim is just how can we make things easier.
Body language is utterly critical, so that's the main way
our messages are sent, actually, and so I'm monitoring my
body to ensure it's relaxed and open the whole time,
my facial expressions, tone of voice, talking volume. I keep
my touch very gentle, respectful, and especially intentional, and so
(18:19):
body language is enormous. And regarding the informed consent process,
people are often too nervous to be listening fully because
they're so anxious. So before making any treatment decisions, I
make sure that people are calm. I might give them
some written information to consider at home first and really
make sure that they're present and in a good place
to make decisions. And then in terms of procedures, I
(18:41):
break things up to suit each patient and tell people
exactly how long things will take, and yeah, it's all
sort of giving them control at every point. And then
regarding during procedures, unfortunately, trauma often takes away people's ability
to speak up and have agency, and so I'll always
(19:01):
observe people to see how they're managing the whole time
and stop if I think they might need it. And
so that's really really common in survives of all kinds
of trauma, that yeah, they've lost their agency and voice,
and so yes, my dental assistant is also monitoring everything.
We work very closely together, and then humor of course,
(19:23):
and after the appointment, we yeah, people usually like to
book their next visit on the same day so that
they don't fall back into fear driven avoidance, because often
the longer people wait, the more scared they get, so
they like to just have that already in there. And
then I always call people after the appointment to see
how they're recovering and answer any questions and just to
(19:45):
show that I care, so I really want to know
how they're going. So my gosh, I talk about this
for hours, but I'm aware of time. So that's just
a few examples.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Is this stuff you wish every dentist new?
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Absolutely, I am on a massive mission and to hopefully
allow this trauma informed approach to be integrated as standard
in dental practice and even more across all human services,
so that we can all be aware of trauma and
its impacts, particularly regarding how to recognize certain fears and
behaviors and not take perhaps certain difficult behaviors personally aggression,
(20:22):
and be able to be compassionate so that we understand
where it's coming from and so on. But with regard
to all dentists knowing this one really exciting announcement by
the Australian Dental Council recently is that my body of work,
the trauma informed dental skill set and knowledge, is now
going to be compulsory to include in all the undergraduate
dental courses around Australia. So it means that all newly
(20:45):
graduating dentists will be able to sort of recognize and
respond sensitively and refer survivors of trauma including family violence
and so on, and that can hopefully connect people to
the services they need which will save their life lives.
And yes, the UNI sort of peace having that education
(21:06):
built in from the beginning will allow many more patients
in the community to be seen and not referred to specialists.
And also I'm in the process because there's been such
an enormous demand for this work. I've been actually overrun
with people flying in from across Australia to see me
and requests from support organizations and so on. I'm in
(21:27):
the process of setting up what, as far as I'm aware,
will be the world's first national social enterprise trauma informed
dental service, specifically built, purpose built with input from survivors
to serve people impacted by all kinds of trauma and
abuse with dental anxiety and phobia, and in particular people
(21:48):
with complex situations that can't be accommodated in the general
dental setting. So it will allow thousands of people in
desperate need who are excluded from the current dental system
to access care. And it's going to be funded externally
and staffed by dentists and doctors and psychologists such as yourself, Anita,
and lawyers and a whole team of experts working together
(22:10):
to provide the best quality of care. And at the moment,
I'm just in the process of looking for people to
join the board of directors and advice and help with
accounting and business development and accessing funding and building a
website and donation of equipment and materials. So it's an
enormous project to take on, but it's so needed in
(22:31):
the community and I'm very excited about it. Where the
education I'm doing will form part of the training of
the clinic, and the physical clinic will be very intentionally
set up to calm the nervous system with all the
site sound smells, angles of the walls and so on,
and they'll be research. So I'm extremely excited about this,
(22:53):
and I hope that it really helps to address some
of the inequities in access to dental care in Australia.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Fantastic doing the Lord's workshure on.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
I don't know what to say.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
That My grandfather was a dentist and my grandmother used
to chase me around the house with a hanky to
pull out my loose tooth when I was young. So
you are you are a revelation to hear that it matters,
it goes.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yes, I'm glad that your all been removed.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
No more hankys, no more, no more trauma, even though
the treatment may take technically longer, and that the people
that might be coming in to see you may have
avoided dental work for a very long time. That it
seems as though you are taking people on a journey
towards healing that is just holistic and respectful, and you know,
(23:54):
healing in a way that is not just about making
sure that their mouth looks beautiful, but about oral health,
about about recovery.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
You know.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
I'm so impressed.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Oh, thank you, Yes, Oh my gosh. I cannot begin
to tell you how significant oral health is for survivors
of trauma in particular, and the impact we can have
as dentists is just so profound. So in my lectures
and educating dentists, I really emphasize the inspiring, rewarding aspects
of just how much we can help people even to
(24:28):
physically heal their trauma, because we're working so closely with
people's bodies, and the body carries a strong visceral memory
of trauma, So when people are less triggered and less anxious,
their trauma actually heals to a lot of survivors of
trauma aren't aware that their dental struggles are related to
their trauma histories at all. They don't realize, and so
they're often isolated in shame and blame themselves for their neglect,
(24:50):
and a lot of dentists sort of haven't been aware
and accidentally retrigger memories and retraumatize people without realizing it.
I'll tell you about a survivor of sexual assaul who
I met, and she was in her early fifties when
we met, and like many survivors of sexual assault, she
used to just come in and sit on the dental
chair and burst into tears. And she hadn't come for
(25:12):
many years to a dentist because of her dental phobia,
and so she needed a lot of work. Things were
very advanced when we met, and she was really embarrassed
about this, and one of the things she needed was
to have her wisdom teeth out. They were all decaying
and causing her pain, and she couldn't understand why I
believed in her capability to handle this, and she thought
(25:33):
the general anaesthetic was going to be her only option,
but she really didn't want it, and she told me
that she felt broken and hopeless, And so every time
she came in, I just kept reinforcing how resilient and
courageous she was with concrete examples that I could see
from her behavior over the visits, and that belief in her.
(25:53):
My belief in her gave her the courage to start
challenging herself and taking some little risks bit by bit,
and so she started to trust that she didn't need
sedatives before her appointments, and we'd gradually do more in
one session and over time, with lots of small victories
along the way. She proved to herself that she could
manage everything, actually, and her courage and determination in facing
(26:16):
her fears was so inspiring to be with. As we
went and two years after we met, she came in
one day and said, she just sort of announced it.
I'm ready take them out. And so I took her
wisdom teeth out in the chair under local anesthetic, and
although it was quite a challenge for her, she coped really,
really well, and she was so proud about herself at
(26:37):
the end, proud of herself, and I remember we were
actually both in tears because she'd been petrified of having
a wisdom teeth out for decades and she'd finally done
it in the chair. So it was a really enormous achievement.
And a few weeks after this, she recovered well and
she asked for an expansion of her role at work
(26:58):
that she'd been wanting for years but she'd been just
too too shy to ask. And she got it and
then absolutely loved this new role. And four months later
she got a really big promotion and now she manages
a whole team. And she came in I still see her,
and she came in and she said, you know, all
of our experiences gave me the confidence to go for
(27:20):
it at work. And so that's just one tiny example,
but there are hundreds and hundreds of the same kind of.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Idea, not a tiny example, just an amazing example.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Thank you, Charon, Charon, thank you for all of for
all that you've given us today and all you're giving
the dental profession and all you're giving society. What an
extraordinary thing you're doing. And thank you.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Oh, thank you very much for having me on. And
I wanted to say thank you for the piano Amanda.
I absolutely loved it. I'm a piano player. I thought
you just have had a wonderful job. And also congratulations
on your hundredth episode. That's a really.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Significant Thank you, Charon, thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Oh, thank you wonderful to chat. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Oh, let's get to our glimmers. I'm just I am
just overwhelmed by today's episode.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Sharon is my glimmer. I mean, I'm stunned at the
extraordinary nature of the work she's doing. And when you
hear it, it's so obvious, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
It's so obvious, and she's so passionate and she's been
so passionate for over twenty five years about this. This
is just amazing.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Okay, all right, how about I go with a different
glimmoll Let's let's change gears a little white sula. I
saw this that in Tokyo monks spend hours every day
smoothing fabric, not for perfect folds, not so that they
don't have creases, but for in a calm. So this
is almost like a why ironing is good for you?
They say, when your hand moves slowly, your mind stops running,
(28:58):
the steam rises, the scent of cotton mixes with your breath,
and your body finds rhythm. In that moment, the brain
shifts from anxiety to focus. No mantras, no poses, no
mindfulness causes, just an iron repetition and the quiet feeling
of taking your mind back. So though apparently, Harvard neurobiologists
(29:18):
found that such repetitive actions like ironing lower anxiety levels
by twenty three percent.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Do you like ironing?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I don't mind it. If I'm just going to stand
in front of the TV and iron and there collars
and tricky things, it is quite soothing.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
There is something you think about, especially about something that's
really wrinkled, and then you smooth it out and it
just looks, it just hangs beautifully. I do like that.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
So maybe you're seeing it as the pleasure of ironing.
It but having the nice result without realizing that what
you're also liking is the calming nature of that.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, there is something quite repetitive and meditative about doing that.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, so that's a glimmer. Think about the meditation while
you're doing your ironing be such a chore.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Maybe maybe my glimmer is well, is about how my
two year old grandson actually went and darped me in
yesterday for what I was taking care of him last night,
and he was He stayed for dinner and and.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Make some gram He stayed for dinner. We opened a
bottle of kiante.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
And anyways, my son, his father went and picked him
up and he called me on the way home and said,
you know, Logan has gone and darbed you in. And
I'm like, what do you mean? And he said, well,
he said, Logan said, Grandma gave me a knife. I
had given him like a child's knife, because he really
(30:44):
likes trying to go and cut his pasta up and.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So child's And are you sure is it your Canadian
version of a child's knife?
Speaker 1 (30:52):
It's probably a machete, were an axe.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Come on, knowing you and it probably is. It probably is.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
It was a so so have had to go and
call and say that my grands had had ratted you out.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, Grandma gave me a ne I don't see that
on a Hallmark card for Christmas to you.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
It's one of my prime prime bear and grandparenting Mormons.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I'll tell you take it and run with it as
it were, Just don't run with the scissors.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Well.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I have found today's episode of Double a Chattery rewarding
and extraordinary in so many ways. And now I know
that you're a serial killer, and.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
So that's great, and there's always things to discover about me.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Ama. We'll leave it at that. We'll see you next time. Bye.
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