#1192 - Creating Better Spaces for Neurodivergent Children

When we change environments to support neurodivergent children, everyone benefits. In this preview of Saturday's interview with Professor Adam Guastella from Sydney Children's Hospital, discover why viewing autism as a 'disorder' might be missing the point, and learn how the right support systems can transform outcomes. Plus, understand why insufficient support leads to troubling patterns of bullying and underachievement.

Quote of the Episode: "When people have changed environments to be more inclusive to support children with autism and other neurodevelopmental needs, those environments are really good for everyone."

Key Insights:

• Focus should be on changing environments, not just children.

• Inclusive environments benefit all children.

• Support needs are both environmental and individual.

• Better support leads to better educational outcomes.

• Lack of support correlates with higher bullying rates.

• Academic underachievement often relates to poor support.

• Professional collaboration improves outcomes.

• Early intervention and support are crucial.

Resources Mentioned:

• Sydney Children's Hospital at Westmead

• Brain and Mind Centre, University of Sydney

• Self-Determination Theory research

• Happy Families

Action Steps for Parents:

1. Focus on environmental adaptations that support learning.

2. Build collaborative relationships with support services.

3. Ensure appropriate support systems are in place early.

4. Look for ways to create inclusive spaces that benefit everyone.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Would you like to understand autism better? Today? A preview
of a fascinating conversation that I've had with a professor
from Westmead Hospital and the University of Sydney about autism.
Hello and welcome to the Happy Families podcast, Real Parenting
Solutions every single day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.

(00:26):
My name's doctor justin course, I'm here with my wife
and mum to our six kids, Kylie, Kylie. Just recently
I've had a discussion with a professor who this guy
knows stuff. His name's Professor Adam A. Guestella. He works
at the Sydney Children's Hospital at Westmead and the Brain
and Mind Center at the University of Sydney and what

(00:47):
he tries to do is build collaborative partnerships between researchers
and clinicians and services to ensure that kids and families
receive the best available assessments and treatments to support well being.
He the co leader of the Child neuro Development and
Mental Health Team for the University of Sydney. This guy
knows his stuff around autism and as you know, there

(01:09):
is more and more challenge and more and more confusion
around raising children with neurodivergent challenges.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
I love how you talk about this idea of collaborative partnerships. Obviously,
he's a pretty clever guy. He's got some pretty big
letters at the end of his name. But I just
love the acknowledgment that it doesn't matter how smart or
clever you are, you can't be everything to everyone. And
the idea that he is looking at ways to pull

(01:37):
in all the goodness that he can to support family
specifically dealing with this challenge is just It's powerful.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
I love talking to him. On Saturday, We're going to
play the full interview, but I know not everybody has
time to listen to the whole thing, and some people
are sort of going, well, should I or shouldn't I
invest I'm going to play this snippet. I asked him
a question that I hear all the time, and I
wanted to hear the way he would respond to it.
I said, when it comes to autism specifically, it used
to be known as autism spectrum disorder, but increasingly people

(02:10):
are pushing back and pushing back hard against the idea
that autism is a disorder or even that ADHD is
a disorder, So I asked him how he would respond
to that particular query.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
The issue in this space really is that it's not
all about changing the child, which the term disorder sort
of insinuates that it's something we have to fix in
a child to get optimal health outcomes. And the answer
is certainly not that right. It's about actually going what
in the environment needs to change to make the environment

(02:44):
easier to learn from, What in the environment needs to
change to encourage more cohesive and more supportive interactions with
people and better friendships, and also what in the environment
needs to change so that people can succeed in achieving
the goals they want to achieve. And so the focus

(03:05):
is very much on helping the individual, but also recognizing
that the environment can change in a huge way as well.
And related to that, when people have done studies and
change environments to be more or we term inclusive to
support children and adults with autism and other neuro own

(03:25):
developmental needs, those environments are really good for everyone. You know,
all of a sudden, we start seeing improvements in learning
outcomes for all the kids in the class, not just
the kids that have in your own developmental condition.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
I love this I love this. I love this idea
that when we suggest that there's a disorder, we're suggesting
that something needs fixing. And if we turn that on
its head, it's the acknowledgment that our children are broken.
And our children aren't broken. The environment that surround them
is broken. It's not supporting them in the areas that

(04:01):
they need support and to have success. And I just
I love that if we were all on the same
page with this, society in general would be safer for everyone.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
This is one of those things that I have been
I guess, banging the drum about for such a long time.
We've created a society that is not in the best
interests of children's development.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
He even acknowledges that he acknowledges that when changes are
made to the environment, it's not only the children who
are struggling with autism, right that benefit, the entire class benefits.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
Got on and this. I talked to him a bit
about self determination theory. He wasn't familiar with it, and
I said, what do you think and he was like, oh,
this is it right. So that means that if we
can build stronger relationships, if we can help kids to
feel like they're progressing and developing mastery and confidence in
these areas, and if they feel like they're in the
driver's seat of their lives because they've got some volition, choice, autonomy,
they do so much better. And he just like, yes, yes,

(04:56):
and yes. When parents say to me, will that book
that you wrote, The Pairing Revolution, will that help my
autistic child or my ADHD child, My response one hundred
percent is yes, because when you create the environment the
supportive of their needs, of course they're going to thrive.
And that's really what he's getting at. What he was
really doing was just endorsing my book. I shouldn't say that, Sorry, Andrew,

(05:20):
if you're listening now, There's one other thing that I
do have to highlight. Though he's emphasized that environment matters,
it's key, but he also did clearly say that our
goal is to help the individual as well. It's not
either either, and some people are taking it really really
hard and saying no, no, no, no, there's nothing the matter

(05:41):
with my child. My child's perfect. It's the environment's of
the problem. We wouldn't do that to a neurotypical child.
We are very much interested in helping neurotypical children to
grow and we're quite happy to point out areas where
they're not performing strongly and work on remedial interventions and saying, hey,
this is an area where you're not doing so great,
let's build you up there. When we're talking about neurodivergent children,

(06:06):
the same principle applies. We don't just say, well, you're perfect,
the environment's the problem. It really is a both and
rather than either or.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well, it's an acknowledgment that we're all individual, right, They're
all really unique and we have different ways of learning.
And if we understand that and we're able to build
a structure that supports that individual space, then of course
we're all going to benefit.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
The great irony is when you get the environment right
and those basic psychological needs are being supported, you become
more growth oriented. Anyway, Okay, after break, one more thing
that Professor Andrew Gostela had to say that I just
got to play you ahead of our full length interview
on Saturday. When I was talking to Professor Andrew Costella

(06:53):
from the University of Sydney and Westmead Hospital about raising
children with developmental needs. We talked about how often it's
usually someone like Grandpa Joe or anymored who'll say it's
poor parenting, or these neurodevelopmental challenges are not actually a thing.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
You're saying it like it's your family members that are
often the biggest challenge. But in my personal experience, often
it has been the medical professionals who don't agree or
don't believe that what you're experiencing is real. And as
a parent who was dealing with the day to day

(07:33):
challenges that exist with having a neurodivergent child, to be
told that there is nothing wrong with them and it's
all your fault, essentially, it's such a lonely place to sit,
and not only lonely but heavy. It's heavy because you
know what you're experiencing on a day to day basis,

(07:54):
and you know the challenges that your child is experiencing,
and there doesn't seem to be anyone to help.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Asked him how this plays out in terms of what's
going on with kids in school and push back against
the NDIS and support There are plenty of people who
are arguing that we're wasting all of our tax payer
money on supporting kids that just need better pairing in
that kind of thing. Here's what he had to say.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
When you don't provide the right support and you don't
give people the needs that they have, then you get
poor outcomes. We know that autistic people and people with
ADHD have enormously high rates of bullying and schools enormously
high rates. They are victims over and over and over again,
and it's a consistent story of trauma and dislike of

(08:38):
schools in regards to their peers for a lot of
young people. We also know that under achievement, particularly in
those later years, is very very common in comparison to
their cognitive ability. And so if we're happy for people
not to succeed and fulfill their potential, if we're happy
for people to be excluded and to be bullied in

(08:59):
our schools and where happens, for people to underperform and
then to have what is often lifelong self esteem issues
and difficulties then moving on into other fields, then yes,
we should leave things the way they are. Stark.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
So, what I love again about this is this actually
creates this beautiful framework for what support workers that go
into children's homes actually do. It takes me back to
a conversation you and I had recently on the podcast
where we talked about this notion and idea of not
necessarily putting so much energy and effort into our children

(09:37):
hanging out with their classmates at the end of the day,
but finding positive role models adults in their lives who
can benefit them and they can learn and glean from
and see different perspectives. And if we look at that
with the acknowledgment that often these kids are the ones
that are victimized, they are the ones that are bullied,

(09:58):
they are the ones that are left alone in the playground,
and recognize that we have support workers there to be
another safe place, another safe port, another person who's cheering
them on from the sidelines. That actually changes the conversation.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
You can hear the entire interview with Professor Adam Gstella
from both Sydney Children's Hospital at Westmead and the Brain
and Mind Center at the University of Sydney this Saturday morning.
Great conversation for anyone who wants to know more about
neurodivergent needs raising kids who are autistic or who have
an ADHD diagnosis. This is a conversation that I just relished.

(10:39):
It's a little bit geeky, Kylie, It's an opportunity for
two psychology needs to geek out a bit on the
academic research, but really really compelling, all about helping with
executive function and you know what I'm not. It's just great.
Saturday morning, that's when you want to check it out.
The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
Bridge Media. If you'd like more information and resources to

(10:59):
make your family happier, visit us at happy families dot
com dot um

Speaker 3 (11:10):
M hmm