March 25, 2025 • 12 mins
What happens when the mirror moves from our wall to our head? In this preview of Saturday's interview with Professor Renee Engeln, discover how beauty sickness affects women and girls, why being "ladylike" might mean "stay small," and how to teach children to value their bodies for what they can do rather than how they look. Plus, understand why having two social media accounts might signal a deeper cultural problem.
Quote of the Episode: "Bodies are super cool... teach your children about how cool they are, like all the amazing things they can do—not so they can look good to other people."
Key Insights:
- Self-objectification develops when external scrutiny becomes internal.
- Beauty standards affect women disproportionately.
- "Ladylike" behaviour often teaches girls to stay small.
- Social media creates additional appearance pressure.
- Cultural expectations create exhausting beauty demands.
- Body appreciation should focus on function over appearance.
- Simple activities like hugging and smiling show body value.
- Cultural change is needed more than individual change.
Resources Mentioned:
- Beauty Sick by Renee Engeln
- Northwestern University research
- Happy Families
Action Steps for Parents:
- Focus on what bodies can do rather than how they look.
- Avoid appearance-based conversations.
- Enable physical exploration and movement.
- Celebrate body functionality over aesthetics.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Have you ever heard of the phrase beauty sick? What
does it mean to be beauty sick? How are we
teaching our kids about their bodies? Today? We talk everything
body image related as a precursor for a big conversation
this weekend with Professor Renee Ngeln. Hello and welcome to
the Happy Families Podcast, Real Parenting Solutions Every day on
(00:29):
Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Causon. Honey,
this one hits home pretty close for us seven girls
in the house, you and our six daughters and the
issue of body image.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I haven't read the book, but after today's interview, I
am really it's intrigued to me.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, beauty sick. How the cultural obsession with appearance hurts
girls and women. This is a book that I read
several years ago. I would say it's in my top
under top ten books of all time.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I think your top ten includes.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Like forty books. No, no, this is like if we
were to throw out books from my library, this would
be one that I would say, it sits on the shelf,
It's not going anywhere. This one must stay. It would
be one of the last ones that I'd get rid of.
It's such a profoundly good book. A couple of our
daughters have read it now, and like you said, this
is one that I reckon you would just you'll gobble
(01:26):
it up. Beauty Sick by Renee Engeln, Northwest University Academic. Anyway,
I'm going to play the whole interview on Saturday. It's
one for anyone who cares about the body image stuff
to check out. But I just wanted to share three
things that she said in the interview that I think
is super important. The first thing that she said, and
I'd really love to get your reaction to this, was
(01:50):
I was talking to her about the idea of being
beauty sick. What does it mean to be beauty sick?
And she raised this idea of having the mirror, rather
than in front of you in the living room or
the bathroom, having the mirror in your head.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
We've gone from having a culture that's always looking at women,
that's always commenting on how they look. We've gone from that,
from that coming from the outside to a point where
we've internalized it and we do that to ourselves. So
I try to stay away from academic jargon, but there's
a term that I always need to use, even though
it's jargon, which is self objectification.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Right.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
So the idea is if the world treats you like
an object long enough and with enough intensity, that eventually
you see yourself that way. Right. You don't need to
be looking in the mirror because it's in your head,
and so you're always monitoring how you look. You're always aware.
It's distracting. It's distressing, right. It crops up in inopportune times.
(02:49):
It keeps you from living the life that's more consistent
with your values. So that's what I mean when I
say beauty sick, is that you've got that mirror stuck
in your head and it's causing you trouble and it's
not your fault. That's always the thing I want to say.
This is not something wrong with individual girls and women.
(03:09):
It's something wrong with our culture.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Something wrong with our culture self objectification. She speaks so vividly.
These words feel like they whack me between the eyes.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I was having a conversation with a group of teenage
girls recently, and they were acknowledging the idea of having
two different social media accounts. One they call their spam
account and the other one was their official site for
one of a better word, And as adults in the room,
a few of us were like, but I don't understand
(03:43):
why do you need a spam account.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
And there's all that extra work you've got to do
as well er.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Percent, And they said, the spam account is just for
a handful of people that they trust that they can
kind of share anything. They don't have to filter it.
They don't have to make sure that you know they're
centered in the frame, or that their hair has done
a certain way, or they're wearing the right clothes. There's
no filtering going in there. They just put the photos
there that they like. Their main account requires so much.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Ex curation and yeah, care.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Care factor before they'll even post a photo, let alone
post multiples. And when we kind of dug a little deeper,
they started showing us the kinds of photos they'd put
on their spam account. Well, they're just your everyday photos.
They're having fun, they're eating food with a friend, they've
you know, kind of wrapped themselves up in a scarf
because it's cold. But oh no, I definitely couldn't put
(04:36):
that on my main account. And so when you listen
to what she's saying this idea that the mirror is
actually in our heads where we're going through that process
seeing yourself with as without anyone else's input.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Well, that's self monitoring. It's insane, it's exhausting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah totally. During the interview, we talk about a couple
of things that we're not going to play now, like
TV women who have to wear something different every time
and still get absolutely mocked mercily for any of their
clothing choices, whereas a guy like Karl Stefanovic wears the
(05:11):
same suit and tie every day for a year and
nobody says a thing like you said exhausting. The amount
of effort that goes into appearance, there is something wrong
with the culture.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Having been on TV, you will have experienced this. How
long does it take you to do hair and makeup?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
So I'm sure that Ali Langton won't mind me saying this,
but on parental guidance, she is in the studio, so
we'll do a full day of recording. Usually starts around
about eight thirty nine o'clock and it finishes at about
six thirty seven pm. Ali has to be at the
studio for seven because hair and makeup takes that long.
And Ali is naturally beautiful. She doesn't quite unquote need
(05:48):
any of that, but that's what TV requires, that's what's necessary.
So she'll be there from seven. I rock up at
eight fifteen and I'm in the studio thirty.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
That's because you're just naturally beautiful.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
It's got no no. I mean, I think it's because
there's nothing that they can do about how I look,
so they just shrug their shoulders and say, wow, that
just is what it is.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
But this is what I'm talking about. There is such
an unfair.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
The beauty standard is completely different from meditation women. Yeah, totally.
And Renee's point, the self monitoring, the self objectification. If
the world treats you like that long enough, you start
to treat yourself like that. It's what value my bringing
to the world based on my physical appearance.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I don't know how long ago this story came up,
but Pamela Anderson hit the news because she has gone
out in public. Yeah, without maker.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
It was like four or five months ago or something
like that.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, yeah, And I saw it on the jew Barrymore
Show and Drew did exactly the same thing. She came
on and when I very first saw it, not knowing
what it was. I'm like, Wow, what's wrong with Drew?
She looks really unwell, you're right, okay, And then obviously
watched it and start to see it unfold and she
started pulling out all of her hair extensions and stuff,
and just the acknowledgment that there's just this such a
huge expectation on women to look a certain way, no
(07:03):
matter how old they are. And as you go down
the street, I'm watching more and more older women who
you can tell have had work done, like multiple thousands
and thousands of dollars of work, because there's this emphasis
that they have to keep up an image.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, it's just.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Again, I just come back to that word exhausting. I
just feel exhausted thinking about the effort that's required to
keep up with this image.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
And that's why I felt like this conversation was so important.
On Saturday, we'll talk about what this means for parents
who are raising girls specifically, but also for boys who
may unknowingly expect that the females that they spend time
with will be spending additional time on their appearance because
that's the expectation. There's a handful of other things that
I wanted to share. I had several audio grabs from
(07:49):
the interview, but because time is getting away from us already,
after the break, I want to get really practical, because
this is the podcast that offers real parenting solutions every day.
After the break, we're going to hear what Renee has
to say about how to send positive and uplifting messages
about bodies to your kids. Okay, Kylie, Renee and I
(08:16):
were talking about the concept of what it is to
be lady like. Should we be teaching girls to be
lady like based on these issues? Here's what she said.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I find that whole phrase really problematic because what you're
teaching your girls when you say that is stay small, right,
don't take up space, don't move, don't learn to use
your body, don't stretch it, don't trust it. Instead, from
the beginning, think of your body in terms of how
it looks to other people. Does it look appropriate, does
it look modest? If you want them to look modest,
(08:47):
then put them in short so they can move however
they want. Right, And when you look at infants, I
guess when they're a little older they start to crawl.
It's actually quite hard for a lot of babies to
crawl in skirts and dresses, and even that is something
we don't think about. I mean, just imagine it. Imagine
now trying to crill in a dress versus pair of
(09:09):
pants or a pair of shorts. So, how we dress
girls in such a way that requires constant fussing and monitoring,
it has a real impact on how they grow up
to feel about their bodies.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
I wish I was a part of this conversation. This
is just crazy. I've never thought about it like this,
but I love that idea that we teach our girls
to stay small bodies, to not take up space. Holy smokes,
I'm just thinking, like, honestly, my mind is exploding just
listening to her talk and the acknowledgment that in that
(09:45):
one phrase, we've taught them that their bodies are fragile. Essentially,
when you think of a lady like I think of
tea parties and China cups, and I think of fragility.
And yet when we have a boy, where so telling
them to use those bodies and use every muscle in
their bodies and climb trees and take risks and stretch
(10:06):
and grow. And yet that's what we're expecting our girls,
and we wonder why we've got such a big divide.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So much that I want to say right now, but
that's actually a perfect segue to the last thing that
I wanted to share, which is what messages should we
be sending to our children, male and female about their bodies.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I think especially for young children, because they're learning to
use their bodies. Right, So encourage them to think about
their bodies not from this objectified perspective, not from how
do they look to other people, but from the perspective
of what do they do for you? What do they
allow you to experience? What do they allow you to feel.
I've had some people say to me, oh, that's able
(10:43):
as straight, because what if you're disabled. But that's I
don't mean that you have to be a marathon runner
to appreciate what your body does. Like, our bodies do
all kinds of things. Right. They allow for creativity and communication,
you know, they allow us to connect with other people.
If you have children who are into athletics of any kind, right,
(11:04):
they allowed that sort of thing. Bodies are super cool, right,
so teach your children about how cool they are, like
all the amazing things they can do, and how they
can care for their bodies so that they can keep
doing cool things, but not so that they can look
good to other people. Right, the best advice is to
just keep those conversations off the table. I just don't
(11:26):
have them.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
So I hear that, and I think even simpler bodies
can hug, bodies can smile.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So I a couple of you said that. Literally, I've
been sitting here just thinking that comment she made about
being accused of being ablest, And as I was sitting
there thinking about it, I was like, just the fact
that I can smell yeah, you know, homemade cookies, or.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I can walk along the beach and enjoy the ocean.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
My can convey love and appreciation to somebody that I
care about. There are just so many beautiful things that
our bodies can do, and it's not about how they
look that is able to convey those things or enable
us to experience things in life.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, we get caught up on the wrong stuff. It's
just a great conversation. I wish you'd been part of
it as well, but you don't love interviews, so I
did it on my own. Renee Ngel, Professor Renee Engeln.
The full length conversation will be played on Saturday for
your casual, easy weekend listening about body image and our
beauty sick society. Please join us on the weekend for
(12:32):
that great discussion. The Happy Families podcast is produced by
Justin Rulon from Bridge Media. More information and resources are
available to make your family happier at happy families dot com,
dot a
Have you ever heard of the phrase beauty sick? What
does it mean to be beauty sick? How are we
teaching our kids about their bodies? Today? We talk everything
body image related as a precursor for a big conversation
this weekend with Professor Renee Ngeln. Hello and welcome to
the Happy Families Podcast, Real Parenting Solutions Every day on
(00:29):
Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Causon. Honey,
this one hits home pretty close for us seven girls
in the house, you and our six daughters and the
issue of body image.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I haven't read the book, but after today's interview, I
am really it's intrigued to me.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, beauty sick. How the cultural obsession with appearance hurts
girls and women. This is a book that I read
several years ago. I would say it's in my top
under top ten books of all time.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I think your top ten includes.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Like forty books. No, no, this is like if we
were to throw out books from my library, this would
be one that I would say, it sits on the shelf,
It's not going anywhere. This one must stay. It would
be one of the last ones that I'd get rid of.
It's such a profoundly good book. A couple of our
daughters have read it now, and like you said, this
is one that I reckon you would just you'll gobble
(01:26):
it up. Beauty Sick by Renee Engeln, Northwest University Academic. Anyway,
I'm going to play the whole interview on Saturday. It's
one for anyone who cares about the body image stuff
to check out. But I just wanted to share three
things that she said in the interview that I think
is super important. The first thing that she said, and
I'd really love to get your reaction to this, was
(01:50):
I was talking to her about the idea of being
beauty sick. What does it mean to be beauty sick?
And she raised this idea of having the mirror, rather
than in front of you in the living room or
the bathroom, having the mirror in your head.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
We've gone from having a culture that's always looking at women,
that's always commenting on how they look. We've gone from that,
from that coming from the outside to a point where
we've internalized it and we do that to ourselves. So
I try to stay away from academic jargon, but there's
a term that I always need to use, even though
it's jargon, which is self objectification.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Right.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
So the idea is if the world treats you like
an object long enough and with enough intensity, that eventually
you see yourself that way. Right. You don't need to
be looking in the mirror because it's in your head,
and so you're always monitoring how you look. You're always aware.
It's distracting. It's distressing, right. It crops up in inopportune times.
(02:49):
It keeps you from living the life that's more consistent
with your values. So that's what I mean when I
say beauty sick, is that you've got that mirror stuck
in your head and it's causing you trouble and it's
not your fault. That's always the thing I want to say.
This is not something wrong with individual girls and women.
(03:09):
It's something wrong with our culture.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Something wrong with our culture self objectification. She speaks so vividly.
These words feel like they whack me between the eyes.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I was having a conversation with a group of teenage
girls recently, and they were acknowledging the idea of having
two different social media accounts. One they call their spam
account and the other one was their official site for
one of a better word, And as adults in the room,
a few of us were like, but I don't understand
(03:43):
why do you need a spam account.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
And there's all that extra work you've got to do
as well er.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Percent, And they said, the spam account is just for
a handful of people that they trust that they can
kind of share anything. They don't have to filter it.
They don't have to make sure that you know they're
centered in the frame, or that their hair has done
a certain way, or they're wearing the right clothes. There's
no filtering going in there. They just put the photos
there that they like. Their main account requires so much.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Ex curation and yeah, care.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Care factor before they'll even post a photo, let alone
post multiples. And when we kind of dug a little deeper,
they started showing us the kinds of photos they'd put
on their spam account. Well, they're just your everyday photos.
They're having fun, they're eating food with a friend, they've
you know, kind of wrapped themselves up in a scarf
because it's cold. But oh no, I definitely couldn't put
(04:36):
that on my main account. And so when you listen
to what she's saying this idea that the mirror is
actually in our heads where we're going through that process
seeing yourself with as without anyone else's input.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Well, that's self monitoring. It's insane, it's exhausting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah totally. During the interview, we talk about a couple
of things that we're not going to play now, like
TV women who have to wear something different every time
and still get absolutely mocked mercily for any of their
clothing choices, whereas a guy like Karl Stefanovic wears the
(05:11):
same suit and tie every day for a year and
nobody says a thing like you said exhausting. The amount
of effort that goes into appearance, there is something wrong
with the culture.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Having been on TV, you will have experienced this. How
long does it take you to do hair and makeup?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
So I'm sure that Ali Langton won't mind me saying this,
but on parental guidance, she is in the studio, so
we'll do a full day of recording. Usually starts around
about eight thirty nine o'clock and it finishes at about
six thirty seven pm. Ali has to be at the
studio for seven because hair and makeup takes that long.
And Ali is naturally beautiful. She doesn't quite unquote need
(05:48):
any of that, but that's what TV requires, that's what's necessary.
So she'll be there from seven. I rock up at
eight fifteen and I'm in the studio thirty.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
That's because you're just naturally beautiful.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
It's got no no. I mean, I think it's because
there's nothing that they can do about how I look,
so they just shrug their shoulders and say, wow, that
just is what it is.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
But this is what I'm talking about. There is such
an unfair.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
The beauty standard is completely different from meditation women. Yeah, totally.
And Renee's point, the self monitoring, the self objectification. If
the world treats you like that long enough, you start
to treat yourself like that. It's what value my bringing
to the world based on my physical appearance.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I don't know how long ago this story came up,
but Pamela Anderson hit the news because she has gone
out in public. Yeah, without maker.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
It was like four or five months ago or something
like that.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, yeah, And I saw it on the jew Barrymore
Show and Drew did exactly the same thing. She came
on and when I very first saw it, not knowing
what it was. I'm like, Wow, what's wrong with Drew?
She looks really unwell, you're right, okay, And then obviously
watched it and start to see it unfold and she
started pulling out all of her hair extensions and stuff,
and just the acknowledgment that there's just this such a
huge expectation on women to look a certain way, no
(07:03):
matter how old they are. And as you go down
the street, I'm watching more and more older women who
you can tell have had work done, like multiple thousands
and thousands of dollars of work, because there's this emphasis
that they have to keep up an image.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, it's just.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Again, I just come back to that word exhausting. I
just feel exhausted thinking about the effort that's required to
keep up with this image.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
And that's why I felt like this conversation was so important.
On Saturday, we'll talk about what this means for parents
who are raising girls specifically, but also for boys who
may unknowingly expect that the females that they spend time
with will be spending additional time on their appearance because
that's the expectation. There's a handful of other things that
I wanted to share. I had several audio grabs from
(07:49):
the interview, but because time is getting away from us already,
after the break, I want to get really practical, because
this is the podcast that offers real parenting solutions every day.
After the break, we're going to hear what Renee has
to say about how to send positive and uplifting messages
about bodies to your kids. Okay, Kylie, Renee and I
(08:16):
were talking about the concept of what it is to
be lady like. Should we be teaching girls to be
lady like based on these issues? Here's what she said.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I find that whole phrase really problematic because what you're
teaching your girls when you say that is stay small, right,
don't take up space, don't move, don't learn to use
your body, don't stretch it, don't trust it. Instead, from
the beginning, think of your body in terms of how
it looks to other people. Does it look appropriate, does
it look modest? If you want them to look modest,
(08:47):
then put them in short so they can move however
they want. Right, And when you look at infants, I
guess when they're a little older they start to crawl.
It's actually quite hard for a lot of babies to
crawl in skirts and dresses, and even that is something
we don't think about. I mean, just imagine it. Imagine
now trying to crill in a dress versus pair of
(09:09):
pants or a pair of shorts. So, how we dress
girls in such a way that requires constant fussing and monitoring,
it has a real impact on how they grow up
to feel about their bodies.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
I wish I was a part of this conversation. This
is just crazy. I've never thought about it like this,
but I love that idea that we teach our girls
to stay small bodies, to not take up space. Holy smokes,
I'm just thinking, like, honestly, my mind is exploding just
listening to her talk and the acknowledgment that in that
(09:45):
one phrase, we've taught them that their bodies are fragile. Essentially,
when you think of a lady like I think of
tea parties and China cups, and I think of fragility.
And yet when we have a boy, where so telling
them to use those bodies and use every muscle in
their bodies and climb trees and take risks and stretch
(10:06):
and grow. And yet that's what we're expecting our girls,
and we wonder why we've got such a big divide.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So much that I want to say right now, but
that's actually a perfect segue to the last thing that
I wanted to share, which is what messages should we
be sending to our children, male and female about their bodies.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I think especially for young children, because they're learning to
use their bodies. Right, So encourage them to think about
their bodies not from this objectified perspective, not from how
do they look to other people, but from the perspective
of what do they do for you? What do they
allow you to experience? What do they allow you to feel.
I've had some people say to me, oh, that's able
(10:43):
as straight, because what if you're disabled. But that's I
don't mean that you have to be a marathon runner
to appreciate what your body does. Like, our bodies do
all kinds of things. Right. They allow for creativity and communication,
you know, they allow us to connect with other people.
If you have children who are into athletics of any kind, right,
(11:04):
they allowed that sort of thing. Bodies are super cool, right,
so teach your children about how cool they are, like
all the amazing things they can do, and how they
can care for their bodies so that they can keep
doing cool things, but not so that they can look
good to other people. Right, the best advice is to
just keep those conversations off the table. I just don't
(11:26):
have them.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
So I hear that, and I think even simpler bodies
can hug, bodies can smile.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So I a couple of you said that. Literally, I've
been sitting here just thinking that comment she made about
being accused of being ablest, And as I was sitting
there thinking about it, I was like, just the fact
that I can smell yeah, you know, homemade cookies, or.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I can walk along the beach and enjoy the ocean.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
My can convey love and appreciation to somebody that I
care about. There are just so many beautiful things that
our bodies can do, and it's not about how they
look that is able to convey those things or enable
us to experience things in life.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, we get caught up on the wrong stuff. It's
just a great conversation. I wish you'd been part of
it as well, but you don't love interviews, so I
did it on my own. Renee Ngel, Professor Renee Engeln.
The full length conversation will be played on Saturday for
your casual, easy weekend listening about body image and our
beauty sick society. Please join us on the weekend for
(12:32):
that great discussion. The Happy Families podcast is produced by
Justin Rulon from Bridge Media. More information and resources are
available to make your family happier at happy families dot com,
dot a
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Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.