February 28, 2023 • 13 mins
Justin speaks with Michelle Mitchell about her new book - Tweens
Topics included in this episode -
- Tweens by Michelle Mitchell
- What is the difference between tweens and teens?
- Changes in social behaviour
- Perspective taking
- Comparisons
- Physical changes
- Cognitive changes
- Self esteem
- Technology
Find us on Facebook at Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families
Email us your questions and comments at podcasts@happyfamilies.com.au
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
It's the Happy Families podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's the podcast for.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
The time poor parent who just wants answers Now Gooday.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
This is doctor Justin Colson, the founder of Happy Families
dot com dot au and dad to six daughters, one
no two, oh my goodness. Two of them are in
their twenties, one's about to be and then I have
a twelve ye I have a teenager, and I have
a soon to be tween she's about to turn nine.
(00:31):
So to help me to navigate these last three kids
moving into adolescents and getting on with their lives, I
brought in a friend, somebody who I really love to
talk to and learn from, somebody who has wisdom just
burgeoning outside of her ears. Her name is Michelle Mitchell.
If you follow me on Facebook, you will have noticed
Michelle's name come up fairly frequently. Michelle's worked with me
(00:53):
on summits, She's been on the podcast before, and Michelle
has a brand new book out. It's called Tweens What
Kids Need Now Before the teenage Years, Navigating friendships, moods, technology, boundaries,
body image, and the road Ahead. Hey, Michelle, thanks for
being on a Happy Families podcast again.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
It's great to see you, doctor, Justin Colson. Good to
see you too. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
So tell me about tweens because a lot of people
lump tweens and teens together, but developmentally we're talking about
a completely different experience when it comes to raising these kids.
What's the age group for a tween, what's going on
developmentally for them? And why do we need to distinguish
between tweens and teens.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I started writing this book for parents of tweens and
teens together because that's a typical narrative. We sort of
follow the transition. But the more I dug into the
research and really listen to what families were telling me,
I just had to narrow my message down. And so
a big message of this book is that tweens are
not the new teenagers. Despite the teen like issues they
(01:57):
might be facing, they actually experienced them in a completely
different way than our teenagers do. So even if it
is the big issues like vaping and self harm, they're
approaching them with childlike cognition and greater trust with adults,
And there's so much togetherness in those tween years, those
nine to twelve years, parents are like feel like they
(02:17):
have a little shadow around them. All the time, and
it's that beautiful togetherness that we really want to tap into.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Michelle, I love what you're saying here. I want to
ask you an unexpected question. As you're talking about that,
the thought popped into my mind. I've said it myself,
and I've heard so many parents say it. Oh, yeah,
they're nine going on nineteen.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, But my sense from what you're describing about this
developmental period is that they're not They're nine going on ten,
they're not ready to be a teenager. They are actually,
even though it feels like we're not ready for it.
They're just developing normally and healthy if we're setting up
the environment right and.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
The best way to support them is to be present
right now and understand what's going on in there brains
right now. And this is something that's really been lost
in research. Our kids have sort of been a bit
neglected because we've focused on the early years and then
we focused on them when they become the troubled teenagers.
But there hasn't been a lot of research around that
nine to twelve age. The Murdoch Children's Research Institute have
(03:18):
some some fantastic work in this area, and what's starting
to come to lie is that kids' brains are on
high speed. They're like a tree that's branches are reaching
far and wide, and the experiences and the environments that
we put around them actually help that growth. During this stage.
It's the most rapid stage of growth since toddlehood. And
(03:41):
if you think about that, that's pretty impressive. Like they're moldable,
they're responsive to their environments, they're adaptive, and there's this
really significant restructuring and reorganizing of their brain in preparation
for the teenage years. So they sometimes feel quite overwhelmed,
they feel exhausted. They get this accelerated growth in gusts.
(04:04):
And it's not just about their physical and biological changes.
Their emotional, social, sexual, cognitive changes are happening at the
same life altering pace. So this is a big time
in their life. They need us beside them.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So let me hit you with a quick lightning round
on those changes. I'm talking one or two sentence answers
for each of these domains. Let's start with social. When
you're atween, what's happening socially that's different to what had
happened prior to the age of nine.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Perspective taking They're starting to understand that other people have
their own mind and can think differently than they do.
The first time they realize that someone might not like them,
like it's a light bulb moment for them. This is
a big shock to their system. There's a huge amount
of comparisons. There's a huge amount of transitions. We've got
our kids developing at different rates, which makes for all
(04:57):
sorts of movement in friendships, which can be really hard
for them to handle.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
You've used the word movement. So let's go to the
physical domain next. When it comes to twins, what are
the biggest physical changes bearing in mind that they're still
not quite adolescents.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Okay, let's look at it as there's so many under
the bonnet changes that happen, Like the roots in the
tree that we talk about, it's expanding behind the scenes
before we see that first pubic here. So we can't
think of puberty and their growth like this unitary event
like they've hit puberty because you know, they're starting to
(05:32):
get their periods or whatever. The hormones start rising in
their body between eighty nine, So they've got these changes
happening internally. And what I think we've missed with this
age group is we don't always correlate behavior to that development.
We miss it so I think that we're being naughty
or bad, and we're very easy correlate it with teenagers,
(05:55):
but not with tweens.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Fascinating last one, No, I've got two more Cognitively in
terms of brain development. You've touched on this already, but
if you were to lightning around one or two sentences,
what's actually going on from a cognitive The ability to
think about things point.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Of view so important twins. If they're rigid, they're very concrete.
They try and understand new information by linking it to
their parents' ideas or things they really have a solid
grasp on. As they get older, they're going to try
and join those dots to all sorts of things beyond
our family, beyond our ideas, and they're going to be
(06:32):
freeer thinkers. What happens in this stage of growth is
they look to us as the source, and if we
don't be the source, someone else is going to.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yeah, usually Google or a friend in the playground that
doesn't know nearly as much as or nearly as healthy
things as we might. The last one for the Lightning
round in fact, you probably want to go a little
bit deeper on this one. So let's go there. Self esteem.
What happens with kids and the way they view themselves,
their identity development. I guess as they go through these
(07:02):
tween years.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, okay. I surveyed sixteen hundred parents, and one hundred percent, justin,
one hundred percent said to me that self esteem and
confidence was their most pressing concern. And when I really
dug into the comments and started to really listen to
what they were saying, they were telling me that kids
were starting to pull back rather than advance, and they
(07:24):
were starting to get very self conscious because they were
aware of other people's perspective of them. Isn't this interesting?
So taking a present into a party became a very
big deal. Wearing a collared shirt to a wedding caused
a massive meltdown. And so parents are watching on thinking
what's going on with my kid? And if I can
say anythink up front as reassurance, self esteem follows a
(07:47):
very clear trajectory. When they're younger, they have this sort
of over the top and inflated view of themselves. I mean,
they're going to be a pilot and an Olympian before Sunday.
But as they get older, they start to realize that
that it's not realistic and their flaws in comparison to
other people become a lot stronger. So that is comparison's kicking.
(08:09):
And I always say to kids, you are what you
are looking for. This is going to take some time,
but there's that innate blueprint inside of you that you
are searching for right now, and I think a big
part of the tween is is helping them explore that blueprint.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah, what I'm hearing is this is the time where
the foundations of what their future identity development will become.
This is this is such a pivotal time. I'm speaking
with Michelle Mitchell. She is the author of Twins What
Kids Need Now Before the Teenage Years. It's the Happy
Families podcast, the podcast for the type of parent who
just wants answers now. Loving our conversation Michelle Mitchell, the
(08:49):
author of Tweens What Kids Need Now Before the Teenage Years.
This is a time nine to twelve where kids suddenly
become i'm going to say, immersed in technology and they
start pushing boundaries. Technically, we know that kids aren't supposed
to be on social media and all that sort of
thing until they're thirteen. But anyone who works in and
around schools talks to kids often knows that a vast proportion,
(09:13):
far too high a proportion of these kids aged between
nine and twelve are on Instagram and TikTok and snapchat
and everything else as well. Can you talk to me
a bit about what you discovered in your research about
the exposure that our nine to twelve year old tweens
are having to technology and how it's affecting them.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
When I surveyed betweens themselves, they gave me five key messages,
and one of those messages was you are missing stuff.
So what they're saying to us as parents is we're
growing up quicker than you realize. You're a step behind
what's happening. And when I speak in schools around staying
safe online and anything around unsafe people, pedophiles, pornography comes
(09:56):
into the discussion. I will always have kids come to
me afterwards to have conversations with me that they haven't
felt comfortable having with their parents, and that breaks my
heart really to think that they're coming to me as
a complete stranger in their life, thinking that I'll understand
what's going on in their world more than their parents do.
And when they're tweens, they have this innate curiosity that
(10:18):
starts to surface, and we need to match that with
I guess, safeguarding their journey. But also there are conversations
if we are not prepared to talk to them about
pedophiles and pornography. Are they old enough to be online?
That would be my very very big challenged parents. And yes,
we need to bring the conversation in an age appropriate
(10:39):
way to our kids. But we need to be having
this conversation because they certainly are in the playground.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
And that's a provocative and important idea. They're online, they're
doing it, and like you said, no parent wants to
be told that they're a step behind they're nine year old.
But I think that that visual is absolutely spot on.
The other thought that I had as you were saying
that is with my daughter about to turn nine, we're
(11:06):
just a few weeks off now. We were walking along
the beach the other day, Michelle, and she was walking
behind me and she said this thing that really struck me,
and I think that it will resonate with you, especially
based on what we've been talking about she's walking behind me,
and I hear this beautiful little voice pipe up and
she says, Hey, Dad. I said, ah, huh, I'm walking
(11:26):
in your footsteps. And I just went, oh. I mean
she's not meaning it at all in the way that
I'm hearing it, but as a parent right at this age,
like you said, if we kind of bring this conversation
full circle, we are right in this special time where
they still really, really they're not embarrassed to say that
(11:47):
they want to be close to us. They're not trying
to walk in front or behind because they don't want
to be seen with us. They're not intentionally trying to
differentiate and individuate from us like they will in the
teen years. If there was one final thing that you
could share with parents to help them to build that connection,
to establish that foundation, to set things up now before
(12:08):
the teenage years, what's your real take home message from
the book, tweins, I hope I.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Can explain this. As much as it hits my heart,
I think we need to learn to flip it. As
much as we don't want our children to grow up,
I think there's something in our children that oftentimes doesn't
want to grow up. And the number one reason is
they're scared of losing our connection with us. And it
came through all of the survey comments that kids were
(12:36):
not wanting to be a pain to their parents and
not wanting to be argumentative like their older brothers and sisters.
They don't want to lose their mum and dad's love
by growing up. And sometimes our kids, you know, they
make mistakes, they start to become almost teenagers and they
push the boundaries, and I feel like how we respond
in that moment either ushes in the next season well
(12:58):
and sets the tone or where it kind of squashes
our kids and makes them feel like being a teenager
is a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Michelle Mitchell's new book is called Tweens What Kids Need
Now Before the Teenage Years. It's in store, it's online,
It's available right now wherever you buy your books. Michelle,
what a great conversation. Thanks so much for sharing what
you've shared.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Thanks for having me. Always love it.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland for
Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. And if
you like more info about making your family happier, especially
if you're raising tweens, check out Michelle's book Twins. Will
link to it in the show notes, or you can
find it online and visit happy families dot com, dot
a
It's the Happy Families podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's the podcast for.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
The time poor parent who just wants answers Now Gooday.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
This is doctor Justin Colson, the founder of Happy Families
dot com dot au and dad to six daughters, one
no two, oh my goodness. Two of them are in
their twenties, one's about to be and then I have
a twelve ye I have a teenager, and I have
a soon to be tween she's about to turn nine.
(00:31):
So to help me to navigate these last three kids
moving into adolescents and getting on with their lives, I
brought in a friend, somebody who I really love to
talk to and learn from, somebody who has wisdom just
burgeoning outside of her ears. Her name is Michelle Mitchell.
If you follow me on Facebook, you will have noticed
Michelle's name come up fairly frequently. Michelle's worked with me
(00:53):
on summits, She's been on the podcast before, and Michelle
has a brand new book out. It's called Tweens What
Kids Need Now Before the teenage Years, Navigating friendships, moods, technology, boundaries,
body image, and the road Ahead. Hey, Michelle, thanks for
being on a Happy Families podcast again.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
It's great to see you, doctor, Justin Colson. Good to
see you too. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
So tell me about tweens because a lot of people
lump tweens and teens together, but developmentally we're talking about
a completely different experience when it comes to raising these kids.
What's the age group for a tween, what's going on
developmentally for them? And why do we need to distinguish
between tweens and teens.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I started writing this book for parents of tweens and
teens together because that's a typical narrative. We sort of
follow the transition. But the more I dug into the
research and really listen to what families were telling me,
I just had to narrow my message down. And so
a big message of this book is that tweens are
not the new teenagers. Despite the teen like issues they
(01:57):
might be facing, they actually experienced them in a completely
different way than our teenagers do. So even if it
is the big issues like vaping and self harm, they're
approaching them with childlike cognition and greater trust with adults,
And there's so much togetherness in those tween years, those
nine to twelve years, parents are like feel like they
(02:17):
have a little shadow around them. All the time, and
it's that beautiful togetherness that we really want to tap into.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Michelle, I love what you're saying here. I want to
ask you an unexpected question. As you're talking about that,
the thought popped into my mind. I've said it myself,
and I've heard so many parents say it. Oh, yeah,
they're nine going on nineteen.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, But my sense from what you're describing about this
developmental period is that they're not They're nine going on ten,
they're not ready to be a teenager. They are actually,
even though it feels like we're not ready for it.
They're just developing normally and healthy if we're setting up
the environment right and.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
The best way to support them is to be present
right now and understand what's going on in there brains
right now. And this is something that's really been lost
in research. Our kids have sort of been a bit
neglected because we've focused on the early years and then
we focused on them when they become the troubled teenagers.
But there hasn't been a lot of research around that
nine to twelve age. The Murdoch Children's Research Institute have
(03:18):
some some fantastic work in this area, and what's starting
to come to lie is that kids' brains are on
high speed. They're like a tree that's branches are reaching
far and wide, and the experiences and the environments that
we put around them actually help that growth. During this stage.
It's the most rapid stage of growth since toddlehood. And
(03:41):
if you think about that, that's pretty impressive. Like they're moldable,
they're responsive to their environments, they're adaptive, and there's this
really significant restructuring and reorganizing of their brain in preparation
for the teenage years. So they sometimes feel quite overwhelmed,
they feel exhausted. They get this accelerated growth in gusts.
(04:04):
And it's not just about their physical and biological changes.
Their emotional, social, sexual, cognitive changes are happening at the
same life altering pace. So this is a big time
in their life. They need us beside them.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So let me hit you with a quick lightning round
on those changes. I'm talking one or two sentence answers
for each of these domains. Let's start with social. When
you're atween, what's happening socially that's different to what had
happened prior to the age of nine.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Perspective taking They're starting to understand that other people have
their own mind and can think differently than they do.
The first time they realize that someone might not like them,
like it's a light bulb moment for them. This is
a big shock to their system. There's a huge amount
of comparisons. There's a huge amount of transitions. We've got
our kids developing at different rates, which makes for all
(04:57):
sorts of movement in friendships, which can be really hard
for them to handle.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
You've used the word movement. So let's go to the
physical domain next. When it comes to twins, what are
the biggest physical changes bearing in mind that they're still
not quite adolescents.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Okay, let's look at it as there's so many under
the bonnet changes that happen, Like the roots in the
tree that we talk about, it's expanding behind the scenes
before we see that first pubic here. So we can't
think of puberty and their growth like this unitary event
like they've hit puberty because you know, they're starting to
(05:32):
get their periods or whatever. The hormones start rising in
their body between eighty nine, So they've got these changes
happening internally. And what I think we've missed with this
age group is we don't always correlate behavior to that development.
We miss it so I think that we're being naughty
or bad, and we're very easy correlate it with teenagers,
(05:55):
but not with tweens.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Fascinating last one, No, I've got two more Cognitively in
terms of brain development. You've touched on this already, but
if you were to lightning around one or two sentences,
what's actually going on from a cognitive The ability to
think about things point.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Of view so important twins. If they're rigid, they're very concrete.
They try and understand new information by linking it to
their parents' ideas or things they really have a solid
grasp on. As they get older, they're going to try
and join those dots to all sorts of things beyond
our family, beyond our ideas, and they're going to be
(06:32):
freeer thinkers. What happens in this stage of growth is
they look to us as the source, and if we
don't be the source, someone else is going to.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yeah, usually Google or a friend in the playground that
doesn't know nearly as much as or nearly as healthy
things as we might. The last one for the Lightning
round in fact, you probably want to go a little
bit deeper on this one. So let's go there. Self esteem.
What happens with kids and the way they view themselves,
their identity development. I guess as they go through these
(07:02):
tween years.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, okay. I surveyed sixteen hundred parents, and one hundred percent, justin,
one hundred percent said to me that self esteem and
confidence was their most pressing concern. And when I really
dug into the comments and started to really listen to
what they were saying, they were telling me that kids
were starting to pull back rather than advance, and they
(07:24):
were starting to get very self conscious because they were
aware of other people's perspective of them. Isn't this interesting?
So taking a present into a party became a very
big deal. Wearing a collared shirt to a wedding caused
a massive meltdown. And so parents are watching on thinking
what's going on with my kid? And if I can
say anythink up front as reassurance, self esteem follows a
(07:47):
very clear trajectory. When they're younger, they have this sort
of over the top and inflated view of themselves. I mean,
they're going to be a pilot and an Olympian before Sunday.
But as they get older, they start to realize that
that it's not realistic and their flaws in comparison to
other people become a lot stronger. So that is comparison's kicking.
(08:09):
And I always say to kids, you are what you
are looking for. This is going to take some time,
but there's that innate blueprint inside of you that you
are searching for right now, and I think a big
part of the tween is is helping them explore that blueprint.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah, what I'm hearing is this is the time where
the foundations of what their future identity development will become.
This is this is such a pivotal time. I'm speaking
with Michelle Mitchell. She is the author of Twins What
Kids Need Now Before the Teenage Years. It's the Happy
Families podcast, the podcast for the type of parent who
just wants answers now. Loving our conversation Michelle Mitchell, the
(08:49):
author of Tweens What Kids Need Now Before the Teenage Years.
This is a time nine to twelve where kids suddenly
become i'm going to say, immersed in technology and they
start pushing boundaries. Technically, we know that kids aren't supposed
to be on social media and all that sort of
thing until they're thirteen. But anyone who works in and
around schools talks to kids often knows that a vast proportion,
(09:13):
far too high a proportion of these kids aged between
nine and twelve are on Instagram and TikTok and snapchat
and everything else as well. Can you talk to me
a bit about what you discovered in your research about
the exposure that our nine to twelve year old tweens
are having to technology and how it's affecting them.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
When I surveyed betweens themselves, they gave me five key messages,
and one of those messages was you are missing stuff.
So what they're saying to us as parents is we're
growing up quicker than you realize. You're a step behind
what's happening. And when I speak in schools around staying
safe online and anything around unsafe people, pedophiles, pornography comes
(09:56):
into the discussion. I will always have kids come to
me afterwards to have conversations with me that they haven't
felt comfortable having with their parents, and that breaks my
heart really to think that they're coming to me as
a complete stranger in their life, thinking that I'll understand
what's going on in their world more than their parents do.
And when they're tweens, they have this innate curiosity that
(10:18):
starts to surface, and we need to match that with
I guess, safeguarding their journey. But also there are conversations
if we are not prepared to talk to them about
pedophiles and pornography. Are they old enough to be online?
That would be my very very big challenged parents. And yes,
we need to bring the conversation in an age appropriate
(10:39):
way to our kids. But we need to be having
this conversation because they certainly are in the playground.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
And that's a provocative and important idea. They're online, they're
doing it, and like you said, no parent wants to
be told that they're a step behind they're nine year old.
But I think that that visual is absolutely spot on.
The other thought that I had as you were saying
that is with my daughter about to turn nine, we're
(11:06):
just a few weeks off now. We were walking along
the beach the other day, Michelle, and she was walking
behind me and she said this thing that really struck me,
and I think that it will resonate with you, especially
based on what we've been talking about she's walking behind me,
and I hear this beautiful little voice pipe up and
she says, Hey, Dad. I said, ah, huh, I'm walking
(11:26):
in your footsteps. And I just went, oh. I mean
she's not meaning it at all in the way that
I'm hearing it, but as a parent right at this age,
like you said, if we kind of bring this conversation
full circle, we are right in this special time where
they still really, really they're not embarrassed to say that
(11:47):
they want to be close to us. They're not trying
to walk in front or behind because they don't want
to be seen with us. They're not intentionally trying to
differentiate and individuate from us like they will in the
teen years. If there was one final thing that you
could share with parents to help them to build that connection,
to establish that foundation, to set things up now before
(12:08):
the teenage years, what's your real take home message from
the book, tweins, I hope I.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Can explain this. As much as it hits my heart,
I think we need to learn to flip it. As
much as we don't want our children to grow up,
I think there's something in our children that oftentimes doesn't
want to grow up. And the number one reason is
they're scared of losing our connection with us. And it
came through all of the survey comments that kids were
(12:36):
not wanting to be a pain to their parents and
not wanting to be argumentative like their older brothers and sisters.
They don't want to lose their mum and dad's love
by growing up. And sometimes our kids, you know, they
make mistakes, they start to become almost teenagers and they
push the boundaries, and I feel like how we respond
in that moment either ushes in the next season well
(12:58):
and sets the tone or where it kind of squashes
our kids and makes them feel like being a teenager
is a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Michelle Mitchell's new book is called Tweens What Kids Need
Now Before the Teenage Years. It's in store, it's online,
It's available right now wherever you buy your books. Michelle,
what a great conversation. Thanks so much for sharing what
you've shared.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Thanks for having me. Always love it.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland for
Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. And if
you like more info about making your family happier, especially
if you're raising tweens, check out Michelle's book Twins. Will
link to it in the show notes, or you can
find it online and visit happy families dot com, dot
a
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An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.