March 15, 2023 • 12 mins
Topics discussed in today's episode:
- The Explosive Child, by Dr Ross Greene an associate clinical professor at Harvard Medical School
- CPS model
- Inflexibility + inflexibility = Meltdown
- Problem solving proactively
- The truth about consequences
- Punishment vs problem solving
- Lives In The Balance
Get in touch with your questions and feedback to podcasts@happyfamilies.com.au
Find out more and register for the Raising Resilient Kids Summit.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
time poor parent who just answers Now. Yesterday on the
Happy Families Podcast, I joined doctor Ross Green. He is
the author of The Explosive Child and associate clinical professor
at Harvard Medical School. We were having a great conversation
about his CPS model, the collaborative and Proactive Solutions model
(00:28):
that he outlines in his book The Explosive Child. That
conversation continues today. Ross, thank you so much for being
here again.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I appreciate you invading me.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Ross when I was working through The Explosive Child some
time ago. Now, I came across a mathematical formula. And
normally this is the kind of thing that would turn
anybody off any kind of a parenting book, because hang on,
I'm reading parenting, I'm not reading maths. This is not
how I want to spend my Friday night. But it
struck me as being such a profoundly important formula. I'd
(00:57):
love to unpack it with you for a couple of minutes.
Just now, you describe the formula as such, inflexibility plus
inflexibility equals melt down. Can you talk about this in
the context of an explosive child, or in fact, in
the context of just I think any relationship, really the.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Kid is already inflexible by nature. That's inflexibility number one.
If your stance toward the kid is equally inflexible, perhaps
in an effort to show the kid whose boss, perhaps
in an effort to teach the kid a lesson, they'll
never forget all these things that we think we're supposed
(01:37):
to be doing as parents. So that's inflexibility number two.
If that's your equation, then it's not going to be pretty. Now.
The addendum to that is that doesn't mean you're a pushover.
A lot of people take inflexibility plus inflexibility equals melt
(01:59):
down to me and okay, so my kid's inflexible already,
then I have to be perfectly flexible. Where do I
have influence at that point? No one said that we
are replacing your inflexibility with one hundred percent flexibility. It's
just that the math equation still holds. If you pair
two inflexible people with each other, it's not going to
(02:22):
be pretty. That's where the problem solving process comes in.
This is just not about being inflexible with somebody who's
already inflexible. This is about proactively and collaboratively solving the
problems that you are being inflexible about in the first place,
so that there's really no inflexibility left in the equation.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Let's talk about timing here, because so often parents will say, well,
my child's being inflexible. I know that I'm supposed to
be flexible here, which means that we need to have
a collaborative and productive conversation. But if we reflect on
the high emotions equals on intelligence idea, how do how
do you communicate with parents around the idea that we
obviously need to find a solution really quickly because there's
(03:05):
a problem right here, right now. But this isn't necessarily
the time to sit down and try to work out
a collaborative, proactive solution because we're going to end up
with a meltdown. And I guess the other challenge is
so many parents will say, but I have the right
to be inflexible because I'm thirty years older than this
child or forty years older than this child, and I
know what I'm talking about. I know that I'm right.
(03:25):
They need to listen to me.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I have the right because I'm thirty years older to
make a great big mess out of something that didn't
have to be a great big mess in the first place.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
And yet so many parents will hold fastest to that
right in the moment. We're so right.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
The goal of the CPS model is to get people
out of the moment. Yeah, whatever expectation this kid is
having difficulty meeting right now, I promise you it's not
the first time. In fact, it's probably the fiftieth time.
Why we are still dealing with it in the heat
of the moment when it is entirely preble is probably
(04:02):
because we haven't yet made a list of all of
the expectations the kid is having difficulty meeting and prioritize
that list, so we know the unsolved problems we're trying
to solve right now, and we know the ones that
we're trying to put on hold right now. The first
edition of The Explosive Child was mostly about solving problems
in the heat of the moment. Every addition since then
(04:25):
has been about solving problems proactively, which simply means making
your list of every single expectation your child is having
difficulty meeting reliably whether they can meet it sometimes and
not others it's still an unsolved problem. Deciding which two
or three you're going to start working on first, and
(04:47):
starting to solve those problems proactively, not just collaboratively. In
the CPS model as well as in other places, we
would call that get out in front of it. If
you don't get out in front of it, you're going
to be behind the eight ball every single time and saying, well,
what am I supposed to do? I've got time pressure,
I'm in the heat of the moment. That is not
(05:08):
a given. You make your list, You're not going to
be in the heat of the moment anymore. As we
frequently say to the parents we work with, I'm going
to get you out of the heat of the moment,
but you need your list first.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
At which point you then sit down with your child
and you ask them what's up. You seem to be
having difficulty to go back to the language, you seem
to be having difficulty here, what's up? And then you
work through that collaborative conversation where you explore their world,
make sure that they understand what the expectations and the
limits are, and then work on solutions together that are
satisfactory for both parties. To the extent that you can.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
You got it.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, beautiful Ross. One more big question that I think
every parent will want to hear an answer to. You
have an entire chapter devoted to the truth about consequences.
This is the favorite topic of mine and I love
talking about it, but I love the way that you
(06:03):
articulate the ideas in this chapter. Would you just help
parents to get a sense of what the truth really
is about consequences and how they impact on a child's
ability to either be flexible and adaptible and to tolerate
frustration well, and all the things that we've talked about,
the emotion regulation and so on. What's the truth about consequences?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
The truth about consequences is that they're overrated and we
rely on them much too heavily. There's other aspects of
parenting that are far more important than consequences. But the
bottom line is, consequences are behavior modification strategies. What you're
consequencing our behaviors you don't like, and you're rewarding the
(06:49):
behaviors you do like, and you're punishing the behaviors you
don't like. Just one problem with that. There's a problem
that's causing that behavior. There's an expectation your child is
having difficulty meeting that's causing that behavior. Concerning behaviors don't
occur out of the blue. They occur when a kid
is having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. And the truth
(07:10):
about consequences is that they do not solve any problems.
And I'm quite convinced that they don't teach the skills
that these kids are found to be lacking. And so
that's why I'm saying that they're overrated. Yes, rewarding, rewarding,
(07:31):
and punishing. Behavior modification, what is known as parent management training,
is an evidence based approach. It's evidence based for modifying behavior.
That's what consequences are good at. And I was trained
in consequences early in my career. That's how I was trained.
But they don't solve the problems that are causing that behavior.
So evidence based though they might be, here's what I say.
(07:55):
We can no longer be satisfied with merely improving a
kid's behavior. If the problems that are causing that behavior
remain unsolved, it's not enough. And the best news is this,
if we solve the problem that's causing the behavior collaboratively
and proactively, not only is the problem solved, the behaviors
(08:19):
that were being caused by that problem subside. We've all
heard the cliche behavior is communication. All concerning behavior communicates
is that there's an expectation the kid is having difficulty meeting.
Once that problem is solved, the need for concerning behavior
is gone and the need for consequencing the behavior is gone.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I love the way you articulate that. I've come under
fire from some people who have very strong opinions about
how we should be dealing with children and the consequences
that they need to face for saying quite explicitly, I
have to the personal goal, and it's something that I
encourage the parents that I work with to have as
a goal to never get my children in trouble. My
(09:04):
goal is to not get them in trouble. I don't
want to be punishing them. I don't want to be
bribing them. I don't want to be sticking them in
their room. I don't want to be threatening them. My
goal is to never get them in trouble. And some
people will misinterpret that as me becoming permissive laisse fair,
letting the children have no rules to whatever they want.
But to the contrary consistent with what you've described. When
(09:26):
I see that we've got a challenge or a problem
or a difficulty in our home, that becomes now an
opportunity for connection. It becomes an opportunity for communication, It
becomes an opportunity for flexibility and adaptability and development of
frustration tolerance and emotion regulation and ultimately problem solving. And
if we solve those problems effectively, we never need to
(09:47):
get anyone in trouble in our home ever. And it
feels amazing to not be getting the kids in trouble.
I mean, it's the ultimate for me, it's the ultimate goal.
Don't get the kids in trouble, just work solutions when
problems arise.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
This paradigm that if you're not consequencing you must be
being passive and permissive is absolute total bs. You have
lots of options besides consequencing. They don't make you passive,
they don't make you permissive. In my opinion, punishing a kid,
(10:24):
at least on the surface of it, is a heck
of a lot easier than solving a problem with a kid.
It's harder over the long haul because you're solving nothing
by consequencing the kid, but it's not hard to say
to a kid, you just lost TV for a week.
Look how easy that was. Right, Sitting down with a
kid to solve a problem much more difficult. But only
(10:45):
one of those two things is actually going to solve
the problem.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Russ. Your book is The Explosive Child revised and updated
and you approach for understanding and pairing easily frustrated chronically
inflexible children. People can get that online wherever they want.
You provide loads of resources for parents who have rigid
and inflexible children, explosive children, children who don't regulate particularly well.
And I think that your resources are absolutely worth shouting
(11:12):
from the rooftops. If people want to learn more about
what you do and how your work can help their family,
where should they be visiting? Where would you send them?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Lives Indebalance dot org l ivees in the Balance dot
org Lives in the Balance is the nonprofit that I've
founded in two thousand and nine, and the first goal
of me founding Lives in the Balance was to provide
all kinds of free resources to people who wanted to
learn more about this model without them necessarily having to
(11:44):
buy a book. So the website is better than it's
ever been. More resources than there have ever been. We're
constantly adding to it. It's their waiting for people and
lives Inndebalance dot org works just as well on the
internet in our Sustralia as it does here in the
United States.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Lives Inthebalance dot org. We will link to that in
the show notes. Also a quick plug. It's very very
early days, but we were chatting before I press the
record button. You're heading to Australia. I'm sure people will
be excited to hear that limited information at the moment.
But if people follow you on Facebook or check your website,
I'm sure that come. Did you say it was September?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
September, I'll be in Australia for three weeks and like
eight or ten different cities.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Wonderful. Well, I'm looking forward to catching up with you
in personal and you when you show up here on
our shores. Thanks so much for joining me on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Ross, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rowland from
Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and for
more information about what we've talked about today, check the
show notes or Lives inthebalance dot org and as always
a whole lot of great info to help make your
family happier is also available at happy families dot com
dot au
It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
time poor parent who just answers Now. Yesterday on the
Happy Families Podcast, I joined doctor Ross Green. He is
the author of The Explosive Child and associate clinical professor
at Harvard Medical School. We were having a great conversation
about his CPS model, the collaborative and Proactive Solutions model
(00:28):
that he outlines in his book The Explosive Child. That
conversation continues today. Ross, thank you so much for being
here again.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I appreciate you invading me.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Ross when I was working through The Explosive Child some
time ago. Now, I came across a mathematical formula. And
normally this is the kind of thing that would turn
anybody off any kind of a parenting book, because hang on,
I'm reading parenting, I'm not reading maths. This is not
how I want to spend my Friday night. But it
struck me as being such a profoundly important formula. I'd
(00:57):
love to unpack it with you for a couple of minutes.
Just now, you describe the formula as such, inflexibility plus
inflexibility equals melt down. Can you talk about this in
the context of an explosive child, or in fact, in
the context of just I think any relationship, really the.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Kid is already inflexible by nature. That's inflexibility number one.
If your stance toward the kid is equally inflexible, perhaps
in an effort to show the kid whose boss, perhaps
in an effort to teach the kid a lesson, they'll
never forget all these things that we think we're supposed
(01:37):
to be doing as parents. So that's inflexibility number two.
If that's your equation, then it's not going to be pretty. Now.
The addendum to that is that doesn't mean you're a pushover.
A lot of people take inflexibility plus inflexibility equals melt
(01:59):
down to me and okay, so my kid's inflexible already,
then I have to be perfectly flexible. Where do I
have influence at that point? No one said that we
are replacing your inflexibility with one hundred percent flexibility. It's
just that the math equation still holds. If you pair
two inflexible people with each other, it's not going to
(02:22):
be pretty. That's where the problem solving process comes in.
This is just not about being inflexible with somebody who's
already inflexible. This is about proactively and collaboratively solving the
problems that you are being inflexible about in the first place,
so that there's really no inflexibility left in the equation.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Let's talk about timing here, because so often parents will say, well,
my child's being inflexible. I know that I'm supposed to
be flexible here, which means that we need to have
a collaborative and productive conversation. But if we reflect on
the high emotions equals on intelligence idea, how do how
do you communicate with parents around the idea that we
obviously need to find a solution really quickly because there's
(03:05):
a problem right here, right now. But this isn't necessarily
the time to sit down and try to work out
a collaborative, proactive solution because we're going to end up
with a meltdown. And I guess the other challenge is
so many parents will say, but I have the right
to be inflexible because I'm thirty years older than this
child or forty years older than this child, and I
know what I'm talking about. I know that I'm right.
(03:25):
They need to listen to me.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I have the right because I'm thirty years older to
make a great big mess out of something that didn't
have to be a great big mess in the first place.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
And yet so many parents will hold fastest to that
right in the moment. We're so right.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
The goal of the CPS model is to get people
out of the moment. Yeah, whatever expectation this kid is
having difficulty meeting right now, I promise you it's not
the first time. In fact, it's probably the fiftieth time.
Why we are still dealing with it in the heat
of the moment when it is entirely preble is probably
(04:02):
because we haven't yet made a list of all of
the expectations the kid is having difficulty meeting and prioritize
that list, so we know the unsolved problems we're trying
to solve right now, and we know the ones that
we're trying to put on hold right now. The first
edition of The Explosive Child was mostly about solving problems
in the heat of the moment. Every addition since then
(04:25):
has been about solving problems proactively, which simply means making
your list of every single expectation your child is having
difficulty meeting reliably whether they can meet it sometimes and
not others it's still an unsolved problem. Deciding which two
or three you're going to start working on first, and
(04:47):
starting to solve those problems proactively, not just collaboratively. In
the CPS model as well as in other places, we
would call that get out in front of it. If
you don't get out in front of it, you're going
to be behind the eight ball every single time and saying, well,
what am I supposed to do? I've got time pressure,
I'm in the heat of the moment. That is not
(05:08):
a given. You make your list, You're not going to
be in the heat of the moment anymore. As we
frequently say to the parents we work with, I'm going
to get you out of the heat of the moment,
but you need your list first.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
At which point you then sit down with your child
and you ask them what's up. You seem to be
having difficulty to go back to the language, you seem
to be having difficulty here, what's up? And then you
work through that collaborative conversation where you explore their world,
make sure that they understand what the expectations and the
limits are, and then work on solutions together that are
satisfactory for both parties. To the extent that you can.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
You got it.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, beautiful Ross. One more big question that I think
every parent will want to hear an answer to. You
have an entire chapter devoted to the truth about consequences.
This is the favorite topic of mine and I love
talking about it, but I love the way that you
(06:03):
articulate the ideas in this chapter. Would you just help
parents to get a sense of what the truth really
is about consequences and how they impact on a child's
ability to either be flexible and adaptible and to tolerate
frustration well, and all the things that we've talked about,
the emotion regulation and so on. What's the truth about consequences?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
The truth about consequences is that they're overrated and we
rely on them much too heavily. There's other aspects of
parenting that are far more important than consequences. But the
bottom line is, consequences are behavior modification strategies. What you're
consequencing our behaviors you don't like, and you're rewarding the
(06:49):
behaviors you do like, and you're punishing the behaviors you
don't like. Just one problem with that. There's a problem
that's causing that behavior. There's an expectation your child is
having difficulty meeting that's causing that behavior. Concerning behaviors don't
occur out of the blue. They occur when a kid
is having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. And the truth
(07:10):
about consequences is that they do not solve any problems.
And I'm quite convinced that they don't teach the skills
that these kids are found to be lacking. And so
that's why I'm saying that they're overrated. Yes, rewarding, rewarding,
(07:31):
and punishing. Behavior modification, what is known as parent management training,
is an evidence based approach. It's evidence based for modifying behavior.
That's what consequences are good at. And I was trained
in consequences early in my career. That's how I was trained.
But they don't solve the problems that are causing that behavior.
So evidence based though they might be, here's what I say.
(07:55):
We can no longer be satisfied with merely improving a
kid's behavior. If the problems that are causing that behavior
remain unsolved, it's not enough. And the best news is this,
if we solve the problem that's causing the behavior collaboratively
and proactively, not only is the problem solved, the behaviors
(08:19):
that were being caused by that problem subside. We've all
heard the cliche behavior is communication. All concerning behavior communicates
is that there's an expectation the kid is having difficulty meeting.
Once that problem is solved, the need for concerning behavior
is gone and the need for consequencing the behavior is gone.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I love the way you articulate that. I've come under
fire from some people who have very strong opinions about
how we should be dealing with children and the consequences
that they need to face for saying quite explicitly, I
have to the personal goal, and it's something that I
encourage the parents that I work with to have as
a goal to never get my children in trouble. My
(09:04):
goal is to not get them in trouble. I don't
want to be punishing them. I don't want to be
bribing them. I don't want to be sticking them in
their room. I don't want to be threatening them. My
goal is to never get them in trouble. And some
people will misinterpret that as me becoming permissive laisse fair,
letting the children have no rules to whatever they want.
But to the contrary consistent with what you've described. When
(09:26):
I see that we've got a challenge or a problem
or a difficulty in our home, that becomes now an
opportunity for connection. It becomes an opportunity for communication, It
becomes an opportunity for flexibility and adaptability and development of
frustration tolerance and emotion regulation and ultimately problem solving. And
if we solve those problems effectively, we never need to
(09:47):
get anyone in trouble in our home ever. And it
feels amazing to not be getting the kids in trouble.
I mean, it's the ultimate for me, it's the ultimate goal.
Don't get the kids in trouble, just work solutions when
problems arise.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
This paradigm that if you're not consequencing you must be
being passive and permissive is absolute total bs. You have
lots of options besides consequencing. They don't make you passive,
they don't make you permissive. In my opinion, punishing a kid,
(10:24):
at least on the surface of it, is a heck
of a lot easier than solving a problem with a kid.
It's harder over the long haul because you're solving nothing
by consequencing the kid, but it's not hard to say
to a kid, you just lost TV for a week.
Look how easy that was. Right, Sitting down with a
kid to solve a problem much more difficult. But only
(10:45):
one of those two things is actually going to solve
the problem.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Russ. Your book is The Explosive Child revised and updated
and you approach for understanding and pairing easily frustrated chronically
inflexible children. People can get that online wherever they want.
You provide loads of resources for parents who have rigid
and inflexible children, explosive children, children who don't regulate particularly well.
And I think that your resources are absolutely worth shouting
(11:12):
from the rooftops. If people want to learn more about
what you do and how your work can help their family,
where should they be visiting? Where would you send them?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Lives Indebalance dot org l ivees in the Balance dot
org Lives in the Balance is the nonprofit that I've
founded in two thousand and nine, and the first goal
of me founding Lives in the Balance was to provide
all kinds of free resources to people who wanted to
learn more about this model without them necessarily having to
(11:44):
buy a book. So the website is better than it's
ever been. More resources than there have ever been. We're
constantly adding to it. It's their waiting for people and
lives Inndebalance dot org works just as well on the
internet in our Sustralia as it does here in the
United States.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Lives Inthebalance dot org. We will link to that in
the show notes. Also a quick plug. It's very very
early days, but we were chatting before I press the
record button. You're heading to Australia. I'm sure people will
be excited to hear that limited information at the moment.
But if people follow you on Facebook or check your website,
I'm sure that come. Did you say it was September?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
September, I'll be in Australia for three weeks and like
eight or ten different cities.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Wonderful. Well, I'm looking forward to catching up with you
in personal and you when you show up here on
our shores. Thanks so much for joining me on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Ross, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rowland from
Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and for
more information about what we've talked about today, check the
show notes or Lives inthebalance dot org and as always
a whole lot of great info to help make your
family happier is also available at happy families dot com
dot au
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.