July 9, 2024 • 26 mins
The Find and Tell two-part finale begins here, as Mark and Ben share the theme Lost In Translation.
Both our storytellers have an extended amount of time to tell their story, and this week we will hear from Mark.
For his final story, Mark demystifies one element of modern romance that has punctuated his own experiences of dating: Ghosting. Why do people ghost? Is it ever okay to ghost? How do you deal with a ghosting? All these questions are laid out, and lead to some unexpected perspectives on the matter. Featuring the wisdom of a qualified psychologist, and a conversation between Mark and one of his old flames...
Don't miss the series finale next week to find out who will be crowned the Find And Tell champion and take home the grand prize.
Find And Tell is co-production between BlakCast & iHeart Australia.
Hosted by Jamila Rizvi
Storytellers are Naeun Kim, Mark Mariano, Ben Haywood & Kate Robinson
Show Producer is Jay Gasser
Mix & Mastering by Ryan Pemberton
Story producers are Indianna Symons, Ryan Pemberton, James Parkinson & Grace Richardson
Theme music by Alex Cox
Video production by All Things All Creatures @allthingsallcreatures
Special thanks to Mundanara Bayles, Corey Layton, Stephanie Coombes, Alyssa Partington, & Bree Steele.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name's Nan. I'm a storyteller on Fine and Tell.
I'm Australian born Korean and I'm currently living on Gadigle Country.
I'd like to recognize the traditional custodians of this continent
whose land was stolen nearly two hundred and fifty years ago,
in particular the Camaragle and Warneri people, whose Land Is
podcast was recorded on and we extended our respect to
(00:22):
all Aboriginal and torrest Right islander peoples. The rich storytelling
history of the world's oldest living culture is what we
pay homage to when we tell stories on Fine and Tell.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Hello, I'm Jimilla Risby and this is Find and Tell,
the search for the next generation of Australian storytellers, and
here we are. We started with hundreds of applications from
wannabe podcasters from all around Australia. We narrowed it down
to just four storytellers who you have gotten to know
(00:57):
and fall in love with on the show over the
last few weeks, and now now we're down to the
final two, Ben and Mark. All that's standing between them
and being crowned our first ever Find and Tell Champion
is one last story whoever tells it best will win
the crown and they'll take home best in Class podcasting
(01:20):
goodies and gear from the team at Rhade Australia and
a range of short courses from the Australian Film, Television
and Radio School, so our winner can continue to find
and tell stories well into their future. Both Ben and
Mark's final theme is lost in translation, and today we're
going to hear from Mark. Since his very first story,
(01:43):
Mark has been willing to be totally vulnerable with me,
with you, our audience. He's shared his experiences as a
gay man growing up in the Mormon Church and the
everyday challenges faced by people who are plus size. He's
even tickled our nostalgia by bringing up memories of Cosma
DeVito's dramatic exit from Australian idol what feels like one
(02:06):
hundred years ago. Mark has this natural talent for bringing
us the audience into his world. He weaves his humor
and his warmth into everything he does, even when he's
tackling some really serious subjects. So for the very last time, Mark,
welcome back to find and tell Hi.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Oh my goodness, that was a bitter sweet This really
is the last time right, it's.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So exciting to see you again. But yeah, knowing this
is it, I am so psyched to hear your final story.
Tell me, have you developed your storytelling style over that time?
Do you feel like you know a bit more about
the kind of storyteller you are?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Well, you know, I guess it just depends on the
story as well. Some will require a lot of me,
some won't. I may just be a platform or I
may just be like a conduit. So I think the
biggest thing that I've learned really is just to be flexible,
to be agile, to take things with grace, and to
(03:08):
problem solve in ways that I never thought i'd have
to problem solve, like even from a logistical perspective sometimes,
particularly with this episode. So yeah, just to be flexible
and love the whole process.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
In the meantime, the theme for this final episode is
lost in translation. When I first told you and Ben
the theme where did your Where did your mind go?
Did you have a story that came about quickly? Or
did you have to go hunting?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Actually, this was the first time that I was stumped.
From the very beginning. I think I had I had
stories that I wanted to tell, even going into this
competition that I was able to work into the incredible
themes we've been given before. But this was the first
time I was like, oh my goodness, I don't have
anything that come immediately to mind, and so I had
(03:54):
to work through that freak out first and then eventually like,
really back in, have a good solid think to really
just like dig deep and look inwards. And I hope
people enjoy listening to me.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yep, they definitely will. I know that for sure, So
let's do it. The theme is lost in translation and
Mark this is your fourth and final contribution to Find
and Tell.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
So I hate being ghosted. I hate being left in
the dark. When you're left with gaps of information, you
fill it with your own. Is it because I'm fat?
I do something wrong and I say something wrong?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Go?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I don't I deserve an explanation. Ghosting can sometimes feel
like a stab in the heart. It's so much worse
than regular rejection. It's like a rug has been pulled
out from under your feet, which really fucking sucks. I
remember the very first time I was ghosted. I was
(04:57):
twenty one and super fresh to the dating scene. Into
that apps, I matched with this cute Filipino guy in
my area and we hit it off. We spoke day night,
punding over our love for K pop, and I remember
messaging chat tomorrow one evening, but by the next morning
his profile was gone. So why do we keep putting
ourselves out there? Well, I guess we're all looking for
(05:21):
that spark, right, I'm talking Anne Hathaway early two thousands
y two k cheesy rum coom spark. To some, it's
a kiss that has you kicking your feet up, like
in the Princess Diaries.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
In old films, whenever a girl get seriously kissed, her
foot would just.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Kind of popped, or a sloppy passion the rain like
in the Notebook. To others, it's enemies to lovers, cliche
like and you've got male or friends to lovers in
suddenly thirty, I'm.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Just crying because I'm happy.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
I want you to be so so happy. I love you, mad,
You're my best friend.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Cheesy, cheesy, I know, but I want that so bad.
I want to stroll hand in hand with someone in
Central Park. I want to spend hours yapping and explaining
and venting. I want that Gilmore Girl's conversation speed where
the connection is undeniable and almost unspoken. It's a little
sad to admit at twenty eight, but I don't think
(06:26):
I've ever felt that spark, at least not in full.
I've come really close, but they would all just eventually
fizzle out. But one aspect of dating in twenty twenty
four that Renee Zelger and Colin Firth didn't prepare me
for was ghosting and fair Bridget Jones's Diary would have
been a completely different movie. The ending was Bridget blocking
(06:47):
mister Darcy on Tinder. So why do people ghost? And
how do we move on? Sometimes I wish I could
go back in time, break all the rules and revisit
some of my almost not to beg but to just
I don't know, find out why why didn't it work out?
If only I had a platform where I talked to people,
(07:09):
and if only iHeart was the same company that an
old flame now has his own radio show and podcast with,
I could reach out and ask the questions I've been
wanting to ask.
Speaker 6 (07:18):
Oh wait, hang on a minute, Oh god, Oh, I
don't know. I feel bad. I feel guilty. I feel bad, Okay, cool, I.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Don't feel guilty. No, that wasn't the intention of this
chat at all.
Speaker 6 (07:30):
You can grill me.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
I'm an open book if you want to grill me.
He grilled me, absolutely not. Look so that's Mitch true.
He's the night show host on Kiss in Sydney and
we matched on Tinder back in twenty seventeen, and from
the jump I felt a connection. We would chat for
hours and hours and hours, and he got all of
my pop culture references. We were right on the cusp
of that spark, but that soon dropped off. We'll come
(07:57):
back to him later. It's juicy, I know, I know.
But before we get there, we got to do some work.
We're going to therapy. I have so many questions about
ghosting as a phenomena, and I want to understand why
people do it, or if people feel the same way
I do. In the aftermath, I first reached out to
(08:17):
my mates and ask for their ghost stories.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
I've been ghosting so many times I don't know.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Usually it's not like dates with people, and then I
think that maybe they're a friend of confrontation or don't
want to spend the energy on it. Maybe the same
reason I goost people. The sheer number of friends who
have been ghosted did not surprise me, But what was
surprising was how many had been the ghoste.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
So I have ghosted myself just once.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
It wasn't fair.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
He didn't deserve it, but he was just a nice
guy and I was a bit young and a bit silly.
Speaker 6 (08:47):
Yeah, I just never messaged again.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I think most people would agree that ghosting isn't the
most mature way to end things, but I learned that
sometimes ghosting is necessary to keep yourself safe.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
On the third day, he invited me to his place.
The apartment creeped me out. Basically, I was not feeling it.
I was really anxious. My intuition was like, get out
of here. He took my phone and wouldn't let me
book the obar and I had to like pam my
way out of there. And I managed to get out
of there. And then he sent me a few messages
(09:21):
wanting to meet up again, and I didn't respond.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
So is ghosting as black and white, as right or wrong?
Some stats on mind found that most people actually think
ghosting is appropriate in certain situations, and nearly two and
three have ghosted someone else. Almost everyone will experience it
at some stage. I guess people just ghosts and that's
a reality. But why what are the reasons?
Speaker 5 (09:53):
I think you know that I'm about to say this.
There is no single answer and there is no simple
answer as to why people ghost others.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
As promised, here is relational psychologist Smoothly there who practically
gave me a free therapy session answering all of my
big ticket questions about ghosting. Smoothly helps people who've been
impacted by relationships and the trauma that can come with
personal displacement. For the Darwin based psych ghosting is so
(10:23):
much more complex than we could ever.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
Think, and for so many people who ghost, it is
about being too overwhelmed to own up and say they
don't want to see the other person again. And I
want to be clear, this is not an excuse. This
is usually the reason they do this. Sometimes it can
be too stressful or too uncomfortable to say no. Some
(10:46):
people ghost others because they're insecure themselves. They might not
be emotionally mature or empathetic, or they might refuse to
take accountability for how their behavior impacts other people. Regardless
of intent, this kind of behavior is extremely poor communication.
It's hurtful to the other person. Usually, ghosting says more
(11:08):
about the person doing the ghosting than the ghosting.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Yeah, that makes sense. I don't need a therapist to
tell me that when I get ghosted, I automatically blame myself.
And maybe that's why it hurts so much when someone
leaves me with no answers. I'm not to find that
closure on my own. It brings my deepest insecurities to
the surface, and I become my harshest. In our critic
(11:35):
for Smithie, this pattern of thinking is what ghosting really
taps into.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Someone who gets ghosted, if they already struggle with loneliness
or rejection, sensitivity, or self esteem, ghosting can then perpetuate
that thinking, and they might internalize the rejection and they
might be convinced that somehow they miss the mark or
they're not good enough to date. They might start building
this narrative in their head, built on confirmation bias, that
(12:04):
dating is never going to work out for them, or
that they need to change who they are, they need
to change their personality in order to be likable. If
somebody tends to have this experience multiple times, and if
they are not encouraged to self reflect and think about
this from a mental health lens, it just drives them
(12:25):
further down a really negative paths.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Those anxious and irrational thought cycles are hard to predict
and control, and we may not always have someone else
to help us out of them. So then, how do
we change that? How do we not internalize the external
data we've been given? How do we feel empowered to
break these cycles on our own? Look, I think it's
time to face the inevitable. We need to look inwards,
(12:54):
confront the dark stuff, and work our way to the light.
Except that our feelings may not always be reciprocated, and
accept that ghosting is unavoidable, whether that be from a
lack of chemistry or a loser with no empathy. So
what now? What should we do when we're ghosted? Scream
into our pillows, close the curtains and blast olivery of Rodrigo,
(13:18):
Cry into a drive through speaker box, Oh just me,
Oh my bad. Smoothie suggests that we focus on what's
in our control. The way that someone acts on Tinder
is not in our control.
Speaker 5 (13:31):
You are going to feel some sort of faith if
you get ghosted. Let's accept that feelings of feelings and
fighting and invalidating your feelings is not going to help.
What is going to help is understanding why you feel,
how do you feel, and starting to process them. This
can include things like self reflection, understanding your triggers, understanding
(13:52):
your past experiences how do these shape your current feelings.
This might involve not immediately believing your just because someone
did not text you back. It's very easy for us
to fall into feeling shame when we perceive ourselves as
not being good enough or being unworthy of being responded to,
(14:13):
being replied to. I would really encourage people to replace
that with what you would tell a friend who got ghosted.
It sucks. It's really hard, so remember to be self compassionate.
Being self compassionate will not fix the problem, no, but
you know what, it'll give you enough time and space
(14:36):
to start feeling like yourself again so that you can
then reflect and problem solve and re energize and talk
about it.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
I'm a big believer in rejection being redirection. If I'm
going to be a loyal subscriber to faith and that
everything happens for a reason, I must also believe that
some connections aren't meant to be. It's not the end
of the world, and he it may just not be
that into me This might be hard to hear, but
surviving a ghosting may require some tough self reflection. I've
(15:08):
always struggled with confronting rejection head on. I lose myself
in those inner conversations so easily, but to ground myself
I must push through. Smoothie says that self care is
a vital part of the process, so I asked her,
how can we take better care of ourselves when we're
grieving and processing a rejection.
Speaker 5 (15:29):
I agree that sometimes it is about having those difficult
conversations or honest conversations with yourself, and self care is
definitely not about massages and candles date They can be great,
but self care has to be sustainable. It is about
putting yourself first, about valuing yourself and making a habit
(15:51):
out of it.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
After chatting with Smithie, I took her advice and started
to self reflect. I paused my sixteen three watch of
The Devil Wares Prada, opened the curtains, fluffed and reshaped
my pillows, and I looked back on my almosts, on
the ghosters and on the fizzlers. Some were short lived,
some a bit longer. I can forgive most of them
(16:17):
and still hurt with the rest. But I can't think
my way through that pain. I have to feel it
and then eventually let it go as I work through
the self deprecation and the confusion to then eventually find
my own approaches to self care. There is one situationship
in particular that keeps making a recurring guest appearance in
the Rolling rom com in my mind. So let's get
(16:40):
back to Mitch, the radio host that I almost felt
that spark with, the one I've always wanted to look
in the eye and have a conversation with.
Speaker 6 (16:48):
This will be fun, fun, I'm say.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Okay, So I'll read the script narration that I have
planned for this and then we'll go straight into a chat. Okay,
I'm so excited. Okay. So, like I said, things with
Mitch started as most modern love stories do, on Tinder
in twenty seventeen. This was before he was kiss a
Fem's night show host and before he was voted Australia's
(17:11):
most relatable media personality. Whatever he was though, the cashcock
running errands for Kyle and Jackie. Oh oh god, our
banter was electric. This was the chemistry I'd been waiting for.
We both adored sushi and spent so many late nights
laughing about musical theater. We shared our dreams and aspirations
(17:33):
of living in New York, and we were so hopeful
for our features. This went on for a couple of months,
and we promised to meet, but things just never worked
out and our timing never aligned. Then I started to
feel him pull away. Was that accurate? Is that how
you remember?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Okay?
Speaker 6 (17:53):
Why am I pining for this relationship that never happened.
Speaker 7 (17:55):
I'm moaning the loss of the love that I didn't
even know existed.
Speaker 6 (17:59):
I've got a half erection. I didn't even know it's possible.
Speaker 7 (18:02):
I am in love with you all over again, and
I do remember it in that way.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
There, it is that mixtruy charm. We just bounced off
each other so easily. But it was only seven years later,
on the other side of that fizzle, that I was
comfortable and secure enough to reach out and speak to
him again.
Speaker 7 (18:22):
I'll be honest, that part of my life was very
weird at that point. I was like, send me in
the closet. I was using dating and the apps to
enter that world. Right. I was just nervous, But I'm
a nervous person in general. I don't like letting people down.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Like I still had a minute where I was like, Oh,
is it because I'm this or is it because that
person is this?
Speaker 7 (18:41):
But then like, if you want the answer, how many
years later has it been seven years six or seven
six or sevenays later? That's not the reason, it's not
your beautiful. The connection was really strong and I remember
it and it was like I genuinely thought, like, Wow,
I'm really enjoying this conversation with this person.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
And.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Okay, I need to come clean. I need to come clean.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I can't keep painting sweet Mitchell
this way as some dreadful Ghoster because he wasn't one.
No Mitch came to the top of my mind because
he didn't ghost me. He instead just told me straight
up that things were getting serious with another person and
that he would just like to be friends.
Speaker 7 (19:20):
I remember writing how I actually felt I just want
I owed you, I really liked you, and I owed
you a genuine reason as to why I wasn't gonna work.
It was getting very serious with my then partner, who
I stayed with for five years.
Speaker 6 (19:32):
So I do remember that.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Yes, well, you know, like the original and immediate reaction
was oh my god, this is shitty. But then that
only lasted for like two months, less than a month, okay,
like forty five minutes.
Speaker 6 (19:43):
I'm worth maybe three months.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
No, maybe like a minute and a half. Okay, interesting,
what you had done was given me an answer? Yeah,
I had a thought that I could grasp onto. You
didn't leave me in the dark. I was given an
uncomfortable answer, but at least I was given one. Yeah,
my time for me to move on, find someone else
I have better compatibility with.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
That's how you do it, guys, Yeah, it's not hard.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
By saying the uncomfortable stuff out loud, Mitch had saved
me from the blame, the turmoil, the confusion. I felt
that with others, but he was one I didn't have
to worry about, and I can't thank him enough. He
could have left me on red, he could have ghosted,
he could have been awful, but he wasn't. Sadly though,
(20:25):
Mitch was the exception and not the rule. Some conversations
will never be had and some things will get lost
in translation, and that has to be Okay, what was
that great saying again? Yeah, rejection is redirection.
Speaker 6 (20:41):
Oh well, like that you was at the Darwin Psychologist.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
No, it was someone else. It was it was a
thirty five year old.
Speaker 6 (20:48):
Interest it got it okay and sent me the link.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Shall we call it a rap? Before we roll the
final credits, here are some last bits of advice straight
from the director. Cut.
Speaker 7 (21:01):
Dating is tough. You can't let it get you down.
That's not your person. A person's not right for you,
or that's not your hook out, that's not the moment,
they're not right for you.
Speaker 6 (21:09):
You cannot let a little ghosting stop you from dating
or going forward.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
And let's also be real to the ghosters out there.
Ghosting others is not going to make it easier for
you to date. People don't like being treated like they're disposable.
So unless it has to do with your safety, consider
if you can communicate what you're feeling in ways that
are clear and non blaming. So practice communicating effectively and assertively.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Everyone deserves today if that's what they want, of course,
and if ghosting is an unfortunate inevitability, then we must
remain open hearted to keep our peace. Maybe then it's
about making sure that the firing you burns bright on
its own, so that when the ghost's clear and the
sparks come fireworks.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Mark, I can see you smiling. How does it feel
listening to that?
Speaker 3 (22:22):
That felt so Norah Efron, queen of two thousands of
wrong goings?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Hey, there's nothing wrong with having a self comparison to
Norah Efron. You did bring all the feelings. You brought
all the feelings in that one. And I promise I'm
going to get to the podcasting, but I have to
ask about the personal stuff first. It would have been
confronting reaching out to contact Mitch and ask him to
be part of this. How did you do it and
how did you kind of get yourself ready to do that?
Speaker 3 (22:47):
It was so funny. I think I put off having
that initial invite conversation with him, but then this was
simply just a matter of like reaching out to him
on Instagram like, Hey, I've got this incredible interview coming
up and I want you to be part of it.
Are you down? And he was so willing to help
and so lovely about it. I'm so grateful for him
(23:08):
for his vulnerability as well. It was very healing speaking
to him, and to interlace that with what Ruthie was
speaking about, it was just I feel like, I've felt
a lot of romantic feelings and fragments, and so to
have these two conversations really helped provide like a framework
to how I emote and how I should move forward
(23:29):
and you know, feel my feelings instead of think through them.
So yeah, it was such a healing experience speaking to
Mitch and then to Smithie as well.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
What made you want to tell a story about ghosting
and explore the subject.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Well, I am very proudly a hopeless romantic.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
I think I got that. I think that came through.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
I also would consider myself a late bloomer. I never
experienced romantic love when I was younger, which, you know,
now navigating this in my twenties, I feel a little
bit stumpeded, which sort of overtakes my mind sometimes. When
I finally took ownership of sort of my dating life,
I found I was encountering ghosters a lot and it
bothered me a lot, And I was like, why does
(24:12):
this bother me? There are people who are get ghosted
and it's not a big deal, But to me, I
was like, why is this the case? And so I
really really wanted to like explore this phenomena, learn so
much about myself and about how ghosting works, and then
take the listeners with me as well, so that it's
a big overall learning experience for all of us.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
What do you hope that listeners take away from this story?
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Look, there are two major takeaways for me, the first
being you know what I learned with Smoothie. I think
to love yourself is to be uncompromising with your wants
and needs. You know, in the meantime, interrogate your feelings,
feel them, do your thing. The second thing really is
that I am single, I am on the prowl. I'm
single and ready to mingle. Yeah. So if there are
(24:57):
any queer men who are listening and are interested and
have loved my storytelling and my voice, I will happily
do the same in their ear. So if you're interested,
reach out. You know, my dms are open.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Oh my god, there's a whole new spinoff podcast that
I am seeing that is possible right now, Mark all
the producers, they're going to have their inboxes flooded, flooded
with requests from admirers of yours and your beautiful voice.
I have loved what a great job you have done
with all your episodes, and particularly today Thank you so much, Mark.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Well, folks. Mark has set the bar high and in
our final episode we will be hearing from Ben. That's
before I decide who is going to be our first
ever Find and Tell Champion. It is getting really exciting
now everyone, you do not want to miss it. Hit
follow in your podcast app now because the epic conclusion
(26:04):
to Find and Tell is on the way. Thank you
also to Afters and Roade Australia for supporting our storytellers
with some incredible prizes. Find and Tell is a co
production between iHeart Australia and the black Cast podcast network.
Black Cast empowers First Nations people and people of color
to reclaim their narratives, to strengthen cultural identity and contribute
(26:28):
to a more inclusive Australia by showcasing exciting emerging talent
from Australian communities.
My name's Nan. I'm a storyteller on Fine and Tell.
I'm Australian born Korean and I'm currently living on Gadigle Country.
I'd like to recognize the traditional custodians of this continent
whose land was stolen nearly two hundred and fifty years ago,
in particular the Camaragle and Warneri people, whose Land Is
podcast was recorded on and we extended our respect to
(00:22):
all Aboriginal and torrest Right islander peoples. The rich storytelling
history of the world's oldest living culture is what we
pay homage to when we tell stories on Fine and Tell.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Hello, I'm Jimilla Risby and this is Find and Tell,
the search for the next generation of Australian storytellers, and
here we are. We started with hundreds of applications from
wannabe podcasters from all around Australia. We narrowed it down
to just four storytellers who you have gotten to know
(00:57):
and fall in love with on the show over the
last few weeks, and now now we're down to the
final two, Ben and Mark. All that's standing between them
and being crowned our first ever Find and Tell Champion
is one last story whoever tells it best will win
the crown and they'll take home best in Class podcasting
(01:20):
goodies and gear from the team at Rhade Australia and
a range of short courses from the Australian Film, Television
and Radio School, so our winner can continue to find
and tell stories well into their future. Both Ben and
Mark's final theme is lost in translation, and today we're
going to hear from Mark. Since his very first story,
(01:43):
Mark has been willing to be totally vulnerable with me,
with you, our audience. He's shared his experiences as a
gay man growing up in the Mormon Church and the
everyday challenges faced by people who are plus size. He's
even tickled our nostalgia by bringing up memories of Cosma
DeVito's dramatic exit from Australian idol what feels like one
(02:06):
hundred years ago. Mark has this natural talent for bringing
us the audience into his world. He weaves his humor
and his warmth into everything he does, even when he's
tackling some really serious subjects. So for the very last time, Mark,
welcome back to find and tell Hi.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Oh my goodness, that was a bitter sweet This really
is the last time right, it's.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So exciting to see you again. But yeah, knowing this
is it, I am so psyched to hear your final story.
Tell me, have you developed your storytelling style over that time?
Do you feel like you know a bit more about
the kind of storyteller you are?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Well, you know, I guess it just depends on the
story as well. Some will require a lot of me,
some won't. I may just be a platform or I
may just be like a conduit. So I think the
biggest thing that I've learned really is just to be flexible,
to be agile, to take things with grace, and to
(03:08):
problem solve in ways that I never thought i'd have
to problem solve, like even from a logistical perspective sometimes,
particularly with this episode. So yeah, just to be flexible
and love the whole process.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
In the meantime, the theme for this final episode is
lost in translation. When I first told you and Ben
the theme where did your Where did your mind go?
Did you have a story that came about quickly? Or
did you have to go hunting?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Actually, this was the first time that I was stumped.
From the very beginning. I think I had I had
stories that I wanted to tell, even going into this
competition that I was able to work into the incredible
themes we've been given before. But this was the first
time I was like, oh my goodness, I don't have
anything that come immediately to mind, and so I had
(03:54):
to work through that freak out first and then eventually like,
really back in, have a good solid think to really
just like dig deep and look inwards. And I hope
people enjoy listening to me.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yep, they definitely will. I know that for sure, So
let's do it. The theme is lost in translation and
Mark this is your fourth and final contribution to Find
and Tell.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
So I hate being ghosted. I hate being left in
the dark. When you're left with gaps of information, you
fill it with your own. Is it because I'm fat?
I do something wrong and I say something wrong?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Go?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I don't I deserve an explanation. Ghosting can sometimes feel
like a stab in the heart. It's so much worse
than regular rejection. It's like a rug has been pulled
out from under your feet, which really fucking sucks. I
remember the very first time I was ghosted. I was
(04:57):
twenty one and super fresh to the dating scene. Into
that apps, I matched with this cute Filipino guy in
my area and we hit it off. We spoke day night,
punding over our love for K pop, and I remember
messaging chat tomorrow one evening, but by the next morning
his profile was gone. So why do we keep putting
ourselves out there? Well, I guess we're all looking for
(05:21):
that spark, right, I'm talking Anne Hathaway early two thousands
y two k cheesy rum coom spark. To some, it's
a kiss that has you kicking your feet up, like
in the Princess Diaries.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
In old films, whenever a girl get seriously kissed, her
foot would just.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Kind of popped, or a sloppy passion the rain like
in the Notebook. To others, it's enemies to lovers, cliche
like and you've got male or friends to lovers in
suddenly thirty, I'm.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Just crying because I'm happy.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
I want you to be so so happy. I love you, mad,
You're my best friend.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Cheesy, cheesy, I know, but I want that so bad.
I want to stroll hand in hand with someone in
Central Park. I want to spend hours yapping and explaining
and venting. I want that Gilmore Girl's conversation speed where
the connection is undeniable and almost unspoken. It's a little
sad to admit at twenty eight, but I don't think
(06:26):
I've ever felt that spark, at least not in full.
I've come really close, but they would all just eventually
fizzle out. But one aspect of dating in twenty twenty
four that Renee Zelger and Colin Firth didn't prepare me
for was ghosting and fair Bridget Jones's Diary would have
been a completely different movie. The ending was Bridget blocking
(06:47):
mister Darcy on Tinder. So why do people ghost? And
how do we move on? Sometimes I wish I could
go back in time, break all the rules and revisit
some of my almost not to beg but to just
I don't know, find out why why didn't it work out?
If only I had a platform where I talked to people,
(07:09):
and if only iHeart was the same company that an
old flame now has his own radio show and podcast with,
I could reach out and ask the questions I've been
wanting to ask.
Speaker 6 (07:18):
Oh wait, hang on a minute, Oh god, Oh, I
don't know. I feel bad. I feel guilty. I feel bad, Okay, cool, I.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Don't feel guilty. No, that wasn't the intention of this
chat at all.
Speaker 6 (07:30):
You can grill me.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
I'm an open book if you want to grill me.
He grilled me, absolutely not. Look so that's Mitch true.
He's the night show host on Kiss in Sydney and
we matched on Tinder back in twenty seventeen, and from
the jump I felt a connection. We would chat for
hours and hours and hours, and he got all of
my pop culture references. We were right on the cusp
of that spark, but that soon dropped off. We'll come
(07:57):
back to him later. It's juicy, I know, I know.
But before we get there, we got to do some work.
We're going to therapy. I have so many questions about
ghosting as a phenomena, and I want to understand why
people do it, or if people feel the same way
I do. In the aftermath, I first reached out to
(08:17):
my mates and ask for their ghost stories.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
I've been ghosting so many times I don't know.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Usually it's not like dates with people, and then I
think that maybe they're a friend of confrontation or don't
want to spend the energy on it. Maybe the same
reason I goost people. The sheer number of friends who
have been ghosted did not surprise me, But what was
surprising was how many had been the ghoste.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
So I have ghosted myself just once.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
It wasn't fair.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
He didn't deserve it, but he was just a nice
guy and I was a bit young and a bit silly.
Speaker 6 (08:47):
Yeah, I just never messaged again.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I think most people would agree that ghosting isn't the
most mature way to end things, but I learned that
sometimes ghosting is necessary to keep yourself safe.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
On the third day, he invited me to his place.
The apartment creeped me out. Basically, I was not feeling it.
I was really anxious. My intuition was like, get out
of here. He took my phone and wouldn't let me
book the obar and I had to like pam my
way out of there. And I managed to get out
of there. And then he sent me a few messages
(09:21):
wanting to meet up again, and I didn't respond.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
So is ghosting as black and white, as right or wrong?
Some stats on mind found that most people actually think
ghosting is appropriate in certain situations, and nearly two and
three have ghosted someone else. Almost everyone will experience it
at some stage. I guess people just ghosts and that's
a reality. But why what are the reasons?
Speaker 5 (09:53):
I think you know that I'm about to say this.
There is no single answer and there is no simple
answer as to why people ghost others.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
As promised, here is relational psychologist Smoothly there who practically
gave me a free therapy session answering all of my
big ticket questions about ghosting. Smoothly helps people who've been
impacted by relationships and the trauma that can come with
personal displacement. For the Darwin based psych ghosting is so
(10:23):
much more complex than we could ever.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
Think, and for so many people who ghost, it is
about being too overwhelmed to own up and say they
don't want to see the other person again. And I
want to be clear, this is not an excuse. This
is usually the reason they do this. Sometimes it can
be too stressful or too uncomfortable to say no. Some
(10:46):
people ghost others because they're insecure themselves. They might not
be emotionally mature or empathetic, or they might refuse to
take accountability for how their behavior impacts other people. Regardless
of intent, this kind of behavior is extremely poor communication.
It's hurtful to the other person. Usually, ghosting says more
(11:08):
about the person doing the ghosting than the ghosting.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Yeah, that makes sense. I don't need a therapist to
tell me that when I get ghosted, I automatically blame myself.
And maybe that's why it hurts so much when someone
leaves me with no answers. I'm not to find that
closure on my own. It brings my deepest insecurities to
the surface, and I become my harshest. In our critic
(11:35):
for Smithie, this pattern of thinking is what ghosting really
taps into.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Someone who gets ghosted, if they already struggle with loneliness
or rejection, sensitivity, or self esteem, ghosting can then perpetuate
that thinking, and they might internalize the rejection and they
might be convinced that somehow they miss the mark or
they're not good enough to date. They might start building
this narrative in their head, built on confirmation bias, that
(12:04):
dating is never going to work out for them, or
that they need to change who they are, they need
to change their personality in order to be likable. If
somebody tends to have this experience multiple times, and if
they are not encouraged to self reflect and think about
this from a mental health lens, it just drives them
(12:25):
further down a really negative paths.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Those anxious and irrational thought cycles are hard to predict
and control, and we may not always have someone else
to help us out of them. So then, how do
we change that? How do we not internalize the external
data we've been given? How do we feel empowered to
break these cycles on our own? Look, I think it's
time to face the inevitable. We need to look inwards,
(12:54):
confront the dark stuff, and work our way to the light.
Except that our feelings may not always be reciprocated, and
accept that ghosting is unavoidable, whether that be from a
lack of chemistry or a loser with no empathy. So
what now? What should we do when we're ghosted? Scream
into our pillows, close the curtains and blast olivery of Rodrigo,
(13:18):
Cry into a drive through speaker box, Oh just me,
Oh my bad. Smoothie suggests that we focus on what's
in our control. The way that someone acts on Tinder
is not in our control.
Speaker 5 (13:31):
You are going to feel some sort of faith if
you get ghosted. Let's accept that feelings of feelings and
fighting and invalidating your feelings is not going to help.
What is going to help is understanding why you feel,
how do you feel, and starting to process them. This
can include things like self reflection, understanding your triggers, understanding
(13:52):
your past experiences how do these shape your current feelings.
This might involve not immediately believing your just because someone
did not text you back. It's very easy for us
to fall into feeling shame when we perceive ourselves as
not being good enough or being unworthy of being responded to,
(14:13):
being replied to. I would really encourage people to replace
that with what you would tell a friend who got ghosted.
It sucks. It's really hard, so remember to be self compassionate.
Being self compassionate will not fix the problem, no, but
you know what, it'll give you enough time and space
(14:36):
to start feeling like yourself again so that you can
then reflect and problem solve and re energize and talk
about it.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
I'm a big believer in rejection being redirection. If I'm
going to be a loyal subscriber to faith and that
everything happens for a reason, I must also believe that
some connections aren't meant to be. It's not the end
of the world, and he it may just not be
that into me This might be hard to hear, but
surviving a ghosting may require some tough self reflection. I've
(15:08):
always struggled with confronting rejection head on. I lose myself
in those inner conversations so easily, but to ground myself
I must push through. Smoothie says that self care is
a vital part of the process, so I asked her,
how can we take better care of ourselves when we're
grieving and processing a rejection.
Speaker 5 (15:29):
I agree that sometimes it is about having those difficult
conversations or honest conversations with yourself, and self care is
definitely not about massages and candles date They can be great,
but self care has to be sustainable. It is about
putting yourself first, about valuing yourself and making a habit
(15:51):
out of it.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
After chatting with Smithie, I took her advice and started
to self reflect. I paused my sixteen three watch of
The Devil Wares Prada, opened the curtains, fluffed and reshaped
my pillows, and I looked back on my almosts, on
the ghosters and on the fizzlers. Some were short lived,
some a bit longer. I can forgive most of them
(16:17):
and still hurt with the rest. But I can't think
my way through that pain. I have to feel it
and then eventually let it go as I work through
the self deprecation and the confusion to then eventually find
my own approaches to self care. There is one situationship
in particular that keeps making a recurring guest appearance in
the Rolling rom com in my mind. So let's get
(16:40):
back to Mitch, the radio host that I almost felt
that spark with, the one I've always wanted to look
in the eye and have a conversation with.
Speaker 6 (16:48):
This will be fun, fun, I'm say.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Okay, So I'll read the script narration that I have
planned for this and then we'll go straight into a chat. Okay,
I'm so excited. Okay. So, like I said, things with
Mitch started as most modern love stories do, on Tinder
in twenty seventeen. This was before he was kiss a
Fem's night show host and before he was voted Australia's
(17:11):
most relatable media personality. Whatever he was though, the cashcock
running errands for Kyle and Jackie. Oh oh god, our
banter was electric. This was the chemistry I'd been waiting for.
We both adored sushi and spent so many late nights
laughing about musical theater. We shared our dreams and aspirations
(17:33):
of living in New York, and we were so hopeful
for our features. This went on for a couple of months,
and we promised to meet, but things just never worked
out and our timing never aligned. Then I started to
feel him pull away. Was that accurate? Is that how
you remember?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Okay?
Speaker 6 (17:53):
Why am I pining for this relationship that never happened.
Speaker 7 (17:55):
I'm moaning the loss of the love that I didn't
even know existed.
Speaker 6 (17:59):
I've got a half erection. I didn't even know it's possible.
Speaker 7 (18:02):
I am in love with you all over again, and
I do remember it in that way.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
There, it is that mixtruy charm. We just bounced off
each other so easily. But it was only seven years later,
on the other side of that fizzle, that I was
comfortable and secure enough to reach out and speak to
him again.
Speaker 7 (18:22):
I'll be honest, that part of my life was very
weird at that point. I was like, send me in
the closet. I was using dating and the apps to
enter that world. Right. I was just nervous, But I'm
a nervous person in general. I don't like letting people down.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Like I still had a minute where I was like, Oh,
is it because I'm this or is it because that
person is this?
Speaker 7 (18:41):
But then like, if you want the answer, how many
years later has it been seven years six or seven
six or sevenays later? That's not the reason, it's not
your beautiful. The connection was really strong and I remember
it and it was like I genuinely thought, like, Wow,
I'm really enjoying this conversation with this person.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
And.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Okay, I need to come clean. I need to come clean.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I can't keep painting sweet Mitchell
this way as some dreadful Ghoster because he wasn't one.
No Mitch came to the top of my mind because
he didn't ghost me. He instead just told me straight
up that things were getting serious with another person and
that he would just like to be friends.
Speaker 7 (19:20):
I remember writing how I actually felt I just want
I owed you, I really liked you, and I owed
you a genuine reason as to why I wasn't gonna work.
It was getting very serious with my then partner, who
I stayed with for five years.
Speaker 6 (19:32):
So I do remember that.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Yes, well, you know, like the original and immediate reaction
was oh my god, this is shitty. But then that
only lasted for like two months, less than a month, okay,
like forty five minutes.
Speaker 6 (19:43):
I'm worth maybe three months.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
No, maybe like a minute and a half. Okay, interesting,
what you had done was given me an answer? Yeah,
I had a thought that I could grasp onto. You
didn't leave me in the dark. I was given an
uncomfortable answer, but at least I was given one. Yeah,
my time for me to move on, find someone else
I have better compatibility with.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
That's how you do it, guys, Yeah, it's not hard.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
By saying the uncomfortable stuff out loud, Mitch had saved
me from the blame, the turmoil, the confusion. I felt
that with others, but he was one I didn't have
to worry about, and I can't thank him enough. He
could have left me on red, he could have ghosted,
he could have been awful, but he wasn't. Sadly though,
(20:25):
Mitch was the exception and not the rule. Some conversations
will never be had and some things will get lost
in translation, and that has to be Okay, what was
that great saying again? Yeah, rejection is redirection.
Speaker 6 (20:41):
Oh well, like that you was at the Darwin Psychologist.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
No, it was someone else. It was it was a
thirty five year old.
Speaker 6 (20:48):
Interest it got it okay and sent me the link.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Shall we call it a rap? Before we roll the
final credits, here are some last bits of advice straight
from the director. Cut.
Speaker 7 (21:01):
Dating is tough. You can't let it get you down.
That's not your person. A person's not right for you,
or that's not your hook out, that's not the moment,
they're not right for you.
Speaker 6 (21:09):
You cannot let a little ghosting stop you from dating
or going forward.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
And let's also be real to the ghosters out there.
Ghosting others is not going to make it easier for
you to date. People don't like being treated like they're disposable.
So unless it has to do with your safety, consider
if you can communicate what you're feeling in ways that
are clear and non blaming. So practice communicating effectively and assertively.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Everyone deserves today if that's what they want, of course,
and if ghosting is an unfortunate inevitability, then we must
remain open hearted to keep our peace. Maybe then it's
about making sure that the firing you burns bright on
its own, so that when the ghost's clear and the
sparks come fireworks.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Mark, I can see you smiling. How does it feel
listening to that?
Speaker 3 (22:22):
That felt so Norah Efron, queen of two thousands of
wrong goings?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Hey, there's nothing wrong with having a self comparison to
Norah Efron. You did bring all the feelings. You brought
all the feelings in that one. And I promise I'm
going to get to the podcasting, but I have to
ask about the personal stuff first. It would have been
confronting reaching out to contact Mitch and ask him to
be part of this. How did you do it and
how did you kind of get yourself ready to do that?
Speaker 3 (22:47):
It was so funny. I think I put off having
that initial invite conversation with him, but then this was
simply just a matter of like reaching out to him
on Instagram like, Hey, I've got this incredible interview coming
up and I want you to be part of it.
Are you down? And he was so willing to help
and so lovely about it. I'm so grateful for him
(23:08):
for his vulnerability as well. It was very healing speaking
to him, and to interlace that with what Ruthie was
speaking about, it was just I feel like, I've felt
a lot of romantic feelings and fragments, and so to
have these two conversations really helped provide like a framework
to how I emote and how I should move forward
(23:29):
and you know, feel my feelings instead of think through them.
So yeah, it was such a healing experience speaking to
Mitch and then to Smithie as well.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
What made you want to tell a story about ghosting
and explore the subject.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Well, I am very proudly a hopeless romantic.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
I think I got that. I think that came through.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
I also would consider myself a late bloomer. I never
experienced romantic love when I was younger, which, you know,
now navigating this in my twenties, I feel a little
bit stumpeded, which sort of overtakes my mind sometimes. When
I finally took ownership of sort of my dating life,
I found I was encountering ghosters a lot and it
bothered me a lot, And I was like, why does
(24:12):
this bother me? There are people who are get ghosted
and it's not a big deal, But to me, I
was like, why is this the case? And so I
really really wanted to like explore this phenomena, learn so
much about myself and about how ghosting works, and then
take the listeners with me as well, so that it's
a big overall learning experience for all of us.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
What do you hope that listeners take away from this story?
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Look, there are two major takeaways for me, the first
being you know what I learned with Smoothie. I think
to love yourself is to be uncompromising with your wants
and needs. You know, in the meantime, interrogate your feelings,
feel them, do your thing. The second thing really is
that I am single, I am on the prowl. I'm
single and ready to mingle. Yeah. So if there are
(24:57):
any queer men who are listening and are interested and
have loved my storytelling and my voice, I will happily
do the same in their ear. So if you're interested,
reach out. You know, my dms are open.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Oh my god, there's a whole new spinoff podcast that
I am seeing that is possible right now, Mark all
the producers, they're going to have their inboxes flooded, flooded
with requests from admirers of yours and your beautiful voice.
I have loved what a great job you have done
with all your episodes, and particularly today Thank you so much, Mark.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Well, folks. Mark has set the bar high and in
our final episode we will be hearing from Ben. That's
before I decide who is going to be our first
ever Find and Tell Champion. It is getting really exciting
now everyone, you do not want to miss it. Hit
follow in your podcast app now because the epic conclusion
(26:04):
to Find and Tell is on the way. Thank you
also to Afters and Roade Australia for supporting our storytellers
with some incredible prizes. Find and Tell is a co
production between iHeart Australia and the black Cast podcast network.
Black Cast empowers First Nations people and people of color
to reclaim their narratives, to strengthen cultural identity and contribute
(26:28):
to a more inclusive Australia by showcasing exciting emerging talent
from Australian communities.
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