June 4, 2024 • 36 mins
It's time to meet our final two storytellers, Mark Mariano and Naeun Kim. This week they go head-to-head on the theme Unlikely Allies.
Mark grew up as a member of the Mormon church. But in his early teen years he left it all behind - because he felt that his sexuality and his spirituality could not co-exist. In this story, he explores that divide, and whether it needs to be there.
And Naeun investigates the name "Karen", which has become synonymous with a demanding, entitled white woman with a compulsive tendency to ask for the manager. But perhaps there is an inner Karen in all of us, and how do we use it for good?
Find and Tell is the search for the next generation of Australian storytellers. Each episode, join host Jamila Rizvi and the best up and coming storytellers the country has to offer.
Follow along each Wednesday to find out who will be crowned the Find And Tell champion and take home the grand prize.
Find And Tell is co-production between BlakCast & iHeart Australia.
Hosted by Jamila Rizvi
Storytellers are Naeun Kim, Mark Mariano, Ben Haywood & Kate Robinson
Show Producer is Jay Gasser
Mix & Mastering by Ryan Pemberton
Story producers are Indianna Symons, Ryan Pemberton, James Parkinson & Grace Richardson
Theme music by Alex Cox
Video production by All Things All Creatures @allthingsallcreatures
Special thanks to Mundanara Bayles, Corey Layton, Stephanie Coombes, Alyssa Partington, & Bree Steele.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name's Noon. I'm a storyteller on Fine and Tell.
I'm Australian born Korean and I'm currently living on Gadigle Country.
I'd like to recognize the traditional custodians of this continent
whose land was stolen nearly two hundred and fifty years ago,
in particular the Camaragle and Wornderi people whose land this
podcast was recorded on, and we extended our respect to
(00:22):
all Aboriginal and Torres Right Islander peoples. The rich storytelling
history of the world's oldest living culture is what we
pay homage to when we tell stories on Fine and Tell.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Hello and welcome back to Find and Tell the search
for the next generation of Australian storytellers. I'm Jamilla Risby
and after a nation wide search, we found four budding storytellers.
We've taught them the ropes of podcasting and set them
loose to find and.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Tell some stories.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Each episode, two of our storytellers go head to head
and share a story they've created based on a theme,
and just like you, I'm hearing them for the first
time before I gather my thoughts and decide the episode's winner.
No pressure, right, every win puts our storytellers closer to
being crowned our Find and Tell champion and winning a
(01:13):
whole bunch of goodies from our friends at Rhode. Last episode,
it was Ben who took home the points, and now
we're about to hear from two new storytellers who will
battle it out over today's theme. Unlikely Allies, All right,
let's unearth our next storyteller.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Hi. My name is Mark Mariano. I am a queer
Filipino writer, model, and comedian from Blacktown in Western Sydney
on dark Land. I love capop, I love thrifting. I
love having a good bookie and telling a good story.
I'm currently a freelance writer. I'm a bit of a
jack of all trades. I've done stuff in TV, social media,
spoken word, Melatus gig was a food writing one, but
(01:54):
there were more stories outside of the food world that
I wanted to tell. So my friend sent me this
incredible call out for Find and Tell and it sounded
like exactly what I wanted to do. I'm so glad
that I did because the stories that we've put together
are just so heartwarming, so wholesome, and I can't wait
for you to hear them.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Hi, Mark, welcome to find and tell Hi.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Hello, how are you?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
It is so lovely to see you, and I'm very
excited to hear all about the story that you've created
and your very first story of the show.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Oh my goodness, I'm so excited.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
So this week's theme is unlikely Allies. Tell me when
you first heard that theme, excited, stressed, tense.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
I was like, am I going to have to fight someone?
Am I?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Who will my allies be? Who will my unlikely allies be?
Speaker 4 (02:44):
My mind went in so many different directions, and then
it wasn't until I spoke to one of my producers
where it was like, why don't we do something a
little bit more personal? Like why don't we do something
that's a bit close to home? And so it's a
little scary. I'm a little scared to have it out
in but at the same time, I'm I think this
is a really important story to tell, So I'm excited.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
What kind of stories do you like to hear?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So put yourself in the shoes of the audience as
opposed to the podcaster.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
What do you like to listen to?
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Well, I'm a bit trashy. I is good because I
feel like podcasts are such an intimate form, and so
when I listen to podcasts, that's where I often go
when I want to hear about what a celebrity feels
like or what a celebrity is going through. I feel
like there's a lot of time and a lot of
a lot of room on podcasts to really dig deep
(03:37):
and really sort of be vulnerable. I'm very like person driven,
and so when I search my podcast I'm like, who
is who is someone that I want to know more about?
Who is someone with complex traumas who presents a different
way but what we want to trauma exactly?
Speaker 5 (03:54):
Mark?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Without giving too much away, what led you to today's story?
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Well, you know, I have a really complicated relationship with
spirituality and religion, and you know, as someone who's proudly queer,
I think this is something that has been on my
mind on a lot, and I thought I was alone
in this experience, but you know, after, you know, speaking
to others who are in a similar space, you know
I'm not alone, and I wanted to sort of dig
(04:22):
a little bit deeper. What does it actually mean to
be a queer person who has ties to a religion
or who was born and raised in a religion like myself.
So I'm hoping the episode turned out okay, and then
I'm not slandering any you know, religious figures. I'm sorry,
so hopefully no blessed with me today, but we'll tell
a good story in the meantime.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Oh, you've definitely piqued my interest, Mark, so let's get started.
Let's hear you'll find and tell first story, which is
all about unlikely allies.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
My last day as a member of the Mormon Church
was just like any other Sunday. I wore a tie
that strangled my double chin and a hand me down
button up shirt that desperately needed an iron. I hugged
my friends goodbye and ignored the weird looks from the
tough boys in my scripture class that made fun of
my high pitched voice. My normally heavy red Bible holder
(05:18):
felt lighter as I swayed out of those holy whole ways.
I settled in my mom's white Toyota echo Beyonce's halo
blasting on the radio, and as we drove home, the
church got smaller and smaller in my mother's rear view.
But I never looked back once. Mormonism is one of
(05:41):
the more illusive Christian religions, and not many people know
about it. The Book of Mormon musical really helped bring
it into the zeitgeist. But I'm sure I made the
faith look a little silly and confusing as well. I
was born into the church, and while I left it
as a young teenager, I know enough to answer some
frequently asked question. Gens, Can Mormons drink coffee? So under
(06:05):
the faith's Word of Wisdom doctrine they actually can't. Something
about not being able to have hot drinks. Mormons in
general tend to avoid caffeine, and yes, that also means
a crisp glass of Coca cola. Can Mormons get divorced? Yes,
but with a lot of steps and counseling and red tape.
As my parents found during theirs. What is Mormon soaking?
(06:29):
It's weirdly not what you think. It's probably worse. So
it's a bit of a premarital sex loophole, a way
of getting it on without actually doing the physical act.
It went viral on TikTok in case you want to
go down that Internet rabbit hole, but please google at
your own risk. Can Mormons be queer? Hmm? This question
(06:54):
has been on my mind, my whole life. Can sexuality
and spirituality coexist? From an official standpoint? The Human Rights
Campaign reported from the church website that the experience of
same sex attraction is a complex reality for many people.
(07:17):
The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on
it is. The Church actually considers Mormons who act on
feelings of same sex attraction to have disobeyed church teachings
on morality and thus are subject to discipline. Brad Harker
is the founder of the Peacock Mormons, who are working
to challenge the current policies and systems in place.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
Peacock Mormons started in twenty eighteen. We were just a
group of eighty of us. Most of us were Mormons.
Some of them were friends and were allies that wanted
to support us in the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras,
and we marched in the Mormon missionary attire, which you
know is the white shirt and the badge and the tie.
(08:02):
The badge said Elder Equality on it. We mass for equality.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
So I actually saw the Peacock Mormons march in the
twenty twenty three Sydney Gain Lesbian Martigars parade. They were
dressed in glittery gold in homage to the Golden Angel
Moroneye statue at the peak of every Mormon church building.
Moroneye was a warrior and a catalyst for the Mormon Church,
a shining beacon, guiding people, even the founder, Joseph Smith
(08:28):
to the faith. If I'm going to be honest, I
was a little taken aback. First. I was angry that
the church, in a presumably official capacity, was marching, like
how dare they? After a few deep breaths, the anger
subsided and a larger truth came over that other gay
(08:49):
Mormons existed and that I wasn't alone.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
It was like a statement, a beautiful statement. And every
time we march, we do reach out to the Mormon
prophet and we write a letter and we ask him
to change some of the policies.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
The prophet is like the Beyonce of the Mormon Church.
He is a conduit to our heavenly Father and often
dictates where the church stands on modern social issues.
Speaker 5 (09:12):
So we've made some headway. Once upon a time they
had an awful rule that said, you can't baptize people
if your parents are in the same sex relationship, you
cannot be baptized. Which was really awful and quite an
ugly rule, and they changed it two years after we
marched in twenty eighteen. We weren't the only ones that
asked them to change the policy. There were other people
(09:33):
in the world that joined us as well. It was
a comradeship effort.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
The stakes were extremely high for Brad. He's a sixth
generation Mormon with pioneer lineage, but with a clear sense
of self.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
He came out and they were shocked and Mum said, no,
please like girls, Brad, please like girls. I unfortunately had
to let it down and say, look, I'm dating guys now,
and this is different from what you've been used to.
They still deeply go to church every week they attend
and they receive teachings from the church that gay is
(10:06):
not okay. This is very difficult for them. My father
has the most problems with it. MO Mum is an advocate,
she's embraced she had turned around it and she voted
yes for marriage equality. But my dad, my dad voted no.
He voted against it.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
When it came to Brad's local congregation, his branch, the
reaction was a little different. Homophobia ran rampant in all
levels of that church, So this isn't a surprise to
me at all. The loving community we build as members
from birth all but falls apart when our queerness comes
into play.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
The bishop called me up and wanted to excommunicate me,
and this was an awful thing to have happened because
I was gay. He said, I've heard the rumors from
your wife and we want to excommunicate you.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
The wife in question was from Brad's second marriage.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
We fell out of love. My wife didn't want to
be with me anymore, and so I was going through divorce.
And this made me feel like I should be true
to everyone about my sexuality. So as I've got the
people that have turned on me and have asked me
off communications, and then I've got the other side of
people that have continued the communications with me and are
(11:25):
still positive and they go to church, but they still
engage with me in a positive way.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
While my bishop never tried to excommunicate me, at least
that I know of, my experience was somewhat similar to Brad's.
When I hit puberty and actualized my gayiness, I consciously
uncoupled from the church. People started treating me different. There
were those tough boys again, who tease that I walked
(11:54):
to girly. There were others who did it behind my back,
exchanging sinful theories, hushed conversations. I thought it was impossible
for spirituality and sexuality to coexist, and I've carried that
confusion and internal conflict since testing one, two three, testing
(12:19):
huh speak Hello, Hello, oh Hello. It's like we're sitting
next to each other. We are seven years away. How
crazy is that? With this question heavy on my mind,
I caught up with my friend Lama, a fellow queer Mormon.
We met as adults, but as kids we were part
of neighboring branches that would have crossed paths at some point.
(12:40):
He left two, but he soon found his way back.
Speaker 6 (12:44):
I feel like I'm one of the very lucky cases
where whether it's my family or the people within the
church who have just like really embraced me for the
person that I am to my face at least, like
I always chuck it up to. These people have every
single thing and they're asking to be like, I hate you,
I don't want anything to do with you, but I
(13:05):
have been met with nothing but love from my friends.
Leaders A bit of a different story, but you know what,
people aren't perfect, so can the two actually coexist?
Speaker 4 (13:20):
I was never quite sure, but Brad is.
Speaker 5 (13:23):
This is a misconception, a huge misconception in the gay
community and LGBTQIA plus a lot of people believe that
you cannot have faith and still be gay that I
don't believe those two things can coexist. And this is
so wrong. It's so wrong. There are so many gay
people out there that have faith in a God, or
(13:45):
spirituality or a being, and.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Brad's words give me comfort. Maybe spirituality and sexuality aren't
two completely different things after all. The way I see
it at both their cores is a fundamental truth. Love
conquers all.
Speaker 7 (14:03):
And has given me home with peer, with kind and.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Leave me God me, saide.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
Me, he me fine.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
As much as I've drawn the line with the church,
I guess there are some things about it that I
hope to never shake, parts of the faith that have
made me who I am now. And them thinks so too, Ingrat,
that's faith in your head.
Speaker 6 (14:48):
That is like, you know what, even though like you've
distanced yourself from the church from a very young age,
it's still so present in you. Is this so crazy?
Is it? It is? You're always like, is the anything I
can do? Do you want me to do this? Do
you want me to hold Like it's whether that is
something that is ingrained in us as being members, or
(15:11):
if that's just who you are, but like you know,
it's just so present, it's still active in your mind.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Leaving the church, I had to let go of so
many things, the camaraderie, the community, the friendships. But they're
not gone, not really, They're still here, just not in
the confines of a chalky white hallway.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Oh Mark, congratulations, Oh thank you.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
What a beautiful pace of work. And also I learned
so much.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
You know, what really struck me was the use of
music and how you used not just the voices of
church choirs, but quite different church choirs to build tension,
to sort of calm me back down again, and then
to hear you singing at the end there.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
It was really elegantly done. When you went into this process.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Was music something you were thinking about from the beginning
or did that come in at a later stage.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Music individually is such a big part of who I am.
I love singing, not that well as we just heard.
Actually some of those hymns are my own recording. I
went to the church. I visited sacrament for the first time,
I would say in like upwards of ten years more.
Even more so, this is the first time I went
with my sister and my mum, who are still active
in the church. I recorded it and it was just
(16:44):
like calming presents. Hymns have always been so calming for me,
so I knew I definitely wanted to include that in
the episode.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Tell me about the two interviews with Brad and with Lamart.
Why did you choose those two to speak to What
did you want them to teach the audience through you?
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Lama, We've had so many conversations about this. It's just
it's so funny. And I mentioned this in the episode.
We would have seen each other at some point. We
went to the same large events, we went to the
same big congregations, but it was only until after we
had both left the church that we had met and connected.
And I think that there's an element of fate there.
I think, you know, I needed to encounter someone who
(17:24):
like me, grew up in a really similar environment. I
guess I wanted to sort of know that I wasn't alone,
that someone else struggled with this, that someone else had
a really difficult time YEA. In terms of Brad, I
think he brought a really logistical, pragmatic approach. He took
some direct action, like he addressed the prophet and the presidents,
(17:49):
some pretty high up people to make change and enact
change and advocate for the queer community within the church,
which to me was so shocking to hear because I'd
never heard of that before. I never heard that. I
knew that there were other queer people within the church,
but I didn't know that there was people actively trying
to make change and it was healing. It was healing.
I was like, Oh my goodness, here's someone else who
(18:10):
has figured things out in their own stage of their
life and has used that empowerment to then do that
for other people within the church, which is something that
I'm hoping this episode does. I don't know if I'm
ever going to ring up the profit. I don't know
if I'm ever going to do that, but to know
that there are people like Brad who are is such
a healing thing for me, and I'm hoping for other
(18:30):
people who listen to this too.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
You haven't eased yourself into this process in any way,
have you. You've started with a combination of topics of
sexuality and spirituality. You didn't like pick an easy theme
to kick off. Why did you want to tell this story?
Speaker 4 (18:45):
I think there are just there are people who inherently
struggle with those two things within them. And it was
a journey that, like I said, was something that I'd
been through, but so so so many other people have
as well, and there are still people on this and
he's struggling with that finding this perfect balance between oh
my goodness, am I going to go to hell? Oh
(19:06):
my goodness, can I love who I love freely? Or
am I going to be exiled for this? Am I
going to be punished for this? And that's been on
my mind, I would say, since I was a little kid,
and even up until now. And that is such a
sad thing for a young person to go through, don't
you think There's so many other things you need to
be figuring out in this world, and then to then
(19:27):
have to deal with that too must be such an
intense burden.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I suspect that there are a whole bunch of younger
versions of yourself listening right now who are also going
to benefit enormously from having heard that work.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Well done. Congratulations Matt, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
That was such a powerful way to kick off Unlikely Allies.
In just a moment, you will meet our final storyteller.
This is fine and tell where this week our storytellers
are exploring the theme Unlikely Allies. We just heard from Mark.
(20:07):
Let's meet our next and final storyteller.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
My name is Nan. I am from Stratfield in Sydney
and I work as a news journalist. I like telling
stories with really interesting and strong characters. With normal news reporting,
there's certain styles and durations that really restrict the way
you can tell a story. And there were so many
(20:32):
stories that we were missing out on because a lot
of it ends up on the cutting room floor. And
I felt this way of storytelling would be a perfect
opportunity to dig a little deeper and talk to people
and explore topics that Australia might never be able to
hear of.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Naan, welcome to find and tell.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Hello, thanks for having me.
Speaker 8 (20:58):
Now.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Your background is in news journalism. What did it feel
like moving into a space of telling stories that don't
necessarily have that strong current affairs driver.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
It was like learning another language. To be honest, I
thought everything I knew about storytelling just went out the window,
because with news reporting, it's a lot of reacting to
events or things that people have said. But in this case,
you're actually proactively looking for a conflict or some sort
(21:30):
of new fresh angles. So having to unearth that from
nothing was a bit of a challenge in the beginning,
but I think I got there in the end, I hope.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
So without giving it all away, what led you to
the story we're about to hear?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Growing up Asian in Australia, I've always been interested in
other marginalized communities in society, especially in Australia and the world.
And yeah, whenever there's misconceptions about a certain group of people,
I tend to into that and see if there's a
reason behind that, or some truth behind that, or yeah,
(22:06):
why it's become that way. So that is what led
me down this rabbit hole.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
All right, let's go down the rabbit hole with you.
This is your first contribution to find and tell on
the theme of unlikely allies.
Speaker 6 (22:20):
There's a dangerous threat spreading across the country right now,
and I'm talking about of course.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Karen's maybe you know a Karen.
Speaker 8 (22:32):
Does it bring up some weird things for you When
I say Karen, Yeah, it's taken on a whole new
and somewhat negative life on social media.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Or maybe you are a Karen. There's no denying the
name has come a long way from its Scandinavian origin, Catherine,
meaning pure Karen is now synonymous with a demanding, entitled
woman with a compulsive tendency to ask for the manager.
She's usually middle aged, white and has a bobcut too.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
My definition of Karen would probably be a lady that
seems to be overly involved in other people's business.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
A Karen is a miserable, middle aged woman who is
intent on making everyone else just as miserable as she.
Speaker 5 (23:14):
Is, looking down their nose at everything, just looking for something,
looking for a problem everywhere.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
It wasn't until the pandemic that the K word became
a regular fixture here in Australia. Social distancing, lockdowns and
mandatory mask wearing set the stage for some very unhappy
and very vocal karens. We met Karen from Brighton in
July twenty twenty when she complained about the lockdown walks
around her beachside suburb.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Well, you get sick of walking the same streets.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
You know I've done I've done all of Brighton.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Just a few days later, another Karen emerged, this time
from Bunning's.
Speaker 7 (23:55):
I'm just asking if you've got a mask well, and
you are not all ask me or questioned me about it.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
While memes come and go, it really does seem this
one is here to stay. In twenty twenty two, Karen
dropped out of the most popular baby names list in
the US for the first time. That same year, in
the UK, only one baby Karen was registered. Like family,
we don't get to choose our name. We also don't
(24:26):
get to choose if it will turn into a meme
one day. So what's a Karen to do?
Speaker 4 (24:34):
For me?
Speaker 9 (24:35):
The instinct is to laugh at it is to identify
that stereotype.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Karen James is a TV writer from South Africa. Ever
since her name became internet shorthand for a certain type
of entitled woman, she's been sent every Karen meme you
could think of from her friends. But she doesn't get offended. Instead,
she wants to dig a little deeper.
Speaker 9 (24:55):
You know why. It is funny where the truth is
in that where the social kind of truth and and
nuances lie.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Karen saw how rampant that stereotype of a privileged white
woman was, especially during the pandemic, but she also saw
the benefits being confident and desertive. From there, the Karen
Book of Rules was born. Written with another writer named
Karen Karen Shimco, the book aims to show how we
(25:23):
can use our Karenness for good.
Speaker 9 (25:27):
So the current Book of Rules as a bit of
a tongue in cheek self help guide very much for
how to use your carendness or your Karenness, your white privilege,
I guess for good, how to be the best version
of a Karen in this world.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
The book covers a range of social situations like zoom calls,
dinner parties, and for those times when you actually need
to speak to the manager. There's even a Karen checklist
to help people's self diagnose. After all, anyone can be
a Karen.
Speaker 9 (26:00):
Karen's come in all genders and races and shapes and sizes,
and you can be guilty of those behaviors and centering
yourself in the world even if you're not a white
middle class woman. The underlying thing is, oh, this eurotype
exists because the white middle class women move through the
(26:22):
world in a certain way and occupy a certain space
in society, and let's look at that. Let's critically kind
of examine that.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Karen argues that white women have more power than marginalized
women in society, so they should harness they're in a
Karen that outspoken confidence to help others when they can.
Speaker 9 (26:45):
If you're in a context where you have some social power,
can you help anyone with That? Often happens with friends
that they're looking to rent an apartment and people are
maybe not taking their calls because they're black or whatever
it might be. I've done that for people before they've
asked me, please call and find out if this is
still available and use your own nice white lady.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
Boys.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
On the other end of the Karen scale is one
where you choose to be in the presence of Karen's
excuse me, shut up and listen.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
This is Karen Sharon.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Pritchard here at Karen's Diner. You'll be hard pressed to
find a nice word anywhere. It's an Australian restaurant chain
paying some sort of tribute to the stereotypically through middle
aged Karen. Customers knowingly get roasted while trying to enjoy
the meal. They paid for. But if your name is Karen,
you get a free drink.
Speaker 8 (27:42):
I mean blowing out the candles on a kid's birthday
cake before a chance too, Like who gets to do
that and it's accepted and their parents piss themselves laughing.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Amanda Jane Pritchard is a writer, performer and comedian for Melbourne,
but her stint as a Karen at Karen Steiner is
by far her favorite. She found it surprisingly easy to
get into character, but soon found it difficult to separate
from the role she was playing at work.
Speaker 8 (28:13):
It gets in your system being Karen. You come out
of working like a four hour, five hour shift and
I would walk down lag On Street in Melbourne and
I would be like getting so frustrated with people who
were slow walkers, and I would just be like, get
out of the road. And then one day there was
a pigeon in front of me and I yelled at
the pigeon. I'm like, get out of the way, pigeon.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
The Karen character didn't just improve a comedy, it also
showed Amanda how we're all vulnerable to Karen tendencies, whether
we like it or not. But it turns out it's
not the worst thing in the world.
Speaker 8 (28:48):
It's part of I think also just culturally and we
expect everything immediately now and yeah, and we all feel
really entitled. There's that element of being a Karen and
people expect you to be nasty, but it's more for me.
(29:12):
I took it as being quick and funny and like
trying not to do the regular stuff that.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
You can do.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Inspired by her work at the Diner, Amanda wrote a
musical comedy. It's called The Unbearable Righteousness of Being Karen.
The show uses all the tropes you'd expect from a
modern day Karen, but surprisingly it's the real life Karen's
having the last laugh.
Speaker 8 (29:37):
And a lot of Karen's came loads. That's the other
thing the Diner and my show, a lot of people
coming whose name is Karen, and they're just they're having
fun with it. If a Karen person named Karen can
have fun about it, then I think that's that's the key.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
It's fair to say Karens haven't been having a lot
of lately. In nineteen sixty five, Karen was the most
popular girl's name in Australia, but it's now the butt
of many jokes. Behind every joke though there's always some
truth in the case of Karen's, the meme has compelled
us all to think about race, gender and power in
(30:17):
our society. Take it from a real life Karen.
Speaker 9 (30:21):
There is an ease that white women have in society.
Quite often, they are seen as non threatening by a
lot of society. They are seen as having a certain
status and ability to move through social hierarchies. And so
instead of just using that in a selfish way and
making it about yourself and what you want and what
(30:42):
you need, use that more broadly for other people. I
think that's how we Karen for.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Good, Naan.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
That was so great to listen to, And that phrase
I'm going to Karen for right there at the end
is something I think we need to put on a billboard.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
It's a good motto to live by.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
I reckon, why.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
For you did the story of Karen need to be explored?
What did you want to tell people about?
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I think because it's a word that's so ingrained in
our vocabulary now that we don't even think twice when
we use it and noticing it when it's hurt in context,
you really think about, oh, what if someone is actually
named Karen, or they don't have any agency over their names, so,
you know, having lived their whole lives as a normal
(31:35):
you know Karen, and then suddenly the whole world's against them.
I thought, Yeah, they surely they'd have something they'd want
to share and something they want other people to rethink,
and yeah, just give them a second, second chance and
a second take.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
With this kind of journalism, I think one of the
pitfalls that creators can fall into is assuming knowledge because
you don't know who your audience is, right, you don't
know who's put their headphones on today and listening to
your story. So how did you make choices about what
information you needed to share upfront and immediately so that
the audience had that base level of information to come
(32:10):
into this with.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
So this story, I did a lot of research and
went down lots of rabbit holes about Karen's and I
found out that the general consensus and sentiment around the
world towards Karen's is still quite negative.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Yeah, there's all these hate groups against Karen's on Facebook,
or all these memes and dedicated YouTube channels like you know,
Karen's in the Wild, So there was quite a lot
of Still I felt a lot of hatred towards them.
So there were lots of ways that I thought I
could have went down and to do something serious or
something as you know, hard hitting that I think would
(32:49):
probably do Karen's a disservers and would project more of
their curenners.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
I guess so.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And I got the idea from talking to Karen James,
the author of the Current Book of Rules, that Yeah,
humor is the best way to educate people, and I
thought taking this in a lighthearted, humoristic approach would get
the message across more people, and more people would be
inclined to listen to or want to listen to something
about Karens.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
So any nervousness about this being heard by an audience,
how do you think people will react?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
I am nervous about the Karens around the world hearing
this particular story as well. Amanda one of the talents
that I interviewed who did a musical comedy about Karens.
She had a lot of Karens ride in and try
to get her show canceled.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
So, oh wow, we've got to prepare ourselves. Yes, yes,
let's the network know.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yes, So hopefully it's received well by them. And yeah,
I'm more excited because I think I've probably been keeping
this a secret from most people around me and finally
letting them hear everything in its full glory without all
the stress and all that panic that I went through.
So I'm excited about that.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Naon, congratulations again on your first Find and Tell story.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
I cannot wait to hear more.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Okay, it's time for me to pick who answered the theme
of Unlikely Allies the best? Is it Naar or is
it Mark? You will hear from the winner in just
a moment. This is Fine and Tell and the theme
this week was Unlikely Allies. From the opening lines of
(34:33):
Mark's script, I thought he created real intrigue and interest
in what is a really personal story. I loved how
he used music to bring a real emotional sense of place,
especially his own singing.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
That was very brave, very brave.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
In the future, I'd really love to see a bit
more practice from Mark on his narration. I thought it
was great scripting, but sounded a little bit like he
was reading sometimes. Naon was super prof professional in the
way she approached this, And when we're listening to something
like that, you feel really comfortable, like the person in
the driver's seat has got this under control. I was
(35:09):
concerned that the prompt for this week's episode got a
little lost In Naan's episode, it felt like a tenuous
link to Unlikely Allies, and there was a lot going
on in this episode. I think Naan tried to take
a lot of content and shove it into a very
short period of time, and while it can be really challenging,
I'd love to see her edit a little bit more
in her future episodes. After hearing both stories, I have
(35:34):
decided who our winner is and Hey, Mark, it's going
to be you. What.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Congratulations?
Speaker 4 (35:41):
Oh my god, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Oh thank you, thank you for so generously sharing and
taking us inside a part of your life and also
a big part of who you are.
Speaker 4 (35:53):
Congratulations, Thank you. This isn't a win for me, This
is a win for anyone else who struggles with their
sexuality and their spirituality.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
So now you've heard from all four of our Find
and Tell storytellers.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Do you have a favorite yep?
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Find out all about them at find and tel dot
com dot Au and make sure you don't miss our
next episode. Just hit follow in your podcast app. Find
and Tell is a co production between iHeart Australia and
the black Cast podcast network. Black Cast empowers First Nations
people and people of color to reclaim their narratives, strengthen
(36:37):
cultural identity, and contribute to a more inclusive Australia by
showcasing exciting emerging talent from Australian communities.
My name's Noon. I'm a storyteller on Fine and Tell.
I'm Australian born Korean and I'm currently living on Gadigle Country.
I'd like to recognize the traditional custodians of this continent
whose land was stolen nearly two hundred and fifty years ago,
in particular the Camaragle and Wornderi people whose land this
podcast was recorded on, and we extended our respect to
(00:22):
all Aboriginal and Torres Right Islander peoples. The rich storytelling
history of the world's oldest living culture is what we
pay homage to when we tell stories on Fine and Tell.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Hello and welcome back to Find and Tell the search
for the next generation of Australian storytellers. I'm Jamilla Risby
and after a nation wide search, we found four budding storytellers.
We've taught them the ropes of podcasting and set them
loose to find and.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Tell some stories.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Each episode, two of our storytellers go head to head
and share a story they've created based on a theme,
and just like you, I'm hearing them for the first
time before I gather my thoughts and decide the episode's winner.
No pressure, right, every win puts our storytellers closer to
being crowned our Find and Tell champion and winning a
(01:13):
whole bunch of goodies from our friends at Rhode. Last episode,
it was Ben who took home the points, and now
we're about to hear from two new storytellers who will
battle it out over today's theme. Unlikely Allies, All right,
let's unearth our next storyteller.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Hi. My name is Mark Mariano. I am a queer
Filipino writer, model, and comedian from Blacktown in Western Sydney
on dark Land. I love capop, I love thrifting. I
love having a good bookie and telling a good story.
I'm currently a freelance writer. I'm a bit of a
jack of all trades. I've done stuff in TV, social media,
spoken word, Melatus gig was a food writing one, but
(01:54):
there were more stories outside of the food world that
I wanted to tell. So my friend sent me this
incredible call out for Find and Tell and it sounded
like exactly what I wanted to do. I'm so glad
that I did because the stories that we've put together
are just so heartwarming, so wholesome, and I can't wait
for you to hear them.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Hi, Mark, welcome to find and tell Hi.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Hello, how are you?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
It is so lovely to see you, and I'm very
excited to hear all about the story that you've created
and your very first story of the show.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Oh my goodness, I'm so excited.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
So this week's theme is unlikely Allies. Tell me when
you first heard that theme, excited, stressed, tense.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
I was like, am I going to have to fight someone?
Am I?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Who will my allies be? Who will my unlikely allies be?
Speaker 4 (02:44):
My mind went in so many different directions, and then
it wasn't until I spoke to one of my producers
where it was like, why don't we do something a
little bit more personal? Like why don't we do something
that's a bit close to home? And so it's a
little scary. I'm a little scared to have it out
in but at the same time, I'm I think this
is a really important story to tell, So I'm excited.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
What kind of stories do you like to hear?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So put yourself in the shoes of the audience as
opposed to the podcaster.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
What do you like to listen to?
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Well, I'm a bit trashy. I is good because I
feel like podcasts are such an intimate form, and so
when I listen to podcasts, that's where I often go
when I want to hear about what a celebrity feels
like or what a celebrity is going through. I feel
like there's a lot of time and a lot of
a lot of room on podcasts to really dig deep
(03:37):
and really sort of be vulnerable. I'm very like person driven,
and so when I search my podcast I'm like, who
is who is someone that I want to know more about?
Who is someone with complex traumas who presents a different
way but what we want to trauma exactly?
Speaker 5 (03:54):
Mark?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Without giving too much away, what led you to today's story?
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Well, you know, I have a really complicated relationship with
spirituality and religion, and you know, as someone who's proudly queer,
I think this is something that has been on my
mind on a lot, and I thought I was alone
in this experience, but you know, after, you know, speaking
to others who are in a similar space, you know
I'm not alone, and I wanted to sort of dig
(04:22):
a little bit deeper. What does it actually mean to
be a queer person who has ties to a religion
or who was born and raised in a religion like myself.
So I'm hoping the episode turned out okay, and then
I'm not slandering any you know, religious figures. I'm sorry,
so hopefully no blessed with me today, but we'll tell
a good story in the meantime.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Oh, you've definitely piqued my interest, Mark, so let's get started.
Let's hear you'll find and tell first story, which is
all about unlikely allies.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
My last day as a member of the Mormon Church
was just like any other Sunday. I wore a tie
that strangled my double chin and a hand me down
button up shirt that desperately needed an iron. I hugged
my friends goodbye and ignored the weird looks from the
tough boys in my scripture class that made fun of
my high pitched voice. My normally heavy red Bible holder
(05:18):
felt lighter as I swayed out of those holy whole ways.
I settled in my mom's white Toyota echo Beyonce's halo
blasting on the radio, and as we drove home, the
church got smaller and smaller in my mother's rear view.
But I never looked back once. Mormonism is one of
(05:41):
the more illusive Christian religions, and not many people know
about it. The Book of Mormon musical really helped bring
it into the zeitgeist. But I'm sure I made the
faith look a little silly and confusing as well. I
was born into the church, and while I left it
as a young teenager, I know enough to answer some
frequently asked question. Gens, Can Mormons drink coffee? So under
(06:05):
the faith's Word of Wisdom doctrine they actually can't. Something
about not being able to have hot drinks. Mormons in
general tend to avoid caffeine, and yes, that also means
a crisp glass of Coca cola. Can Mormons get divorced? Yes,
but with a lot of steps and counseling and red tape.
As my parents found during theirs. What is Mormon soaking?
(06:29):
It's weirdly not what you think. It's probably worse. So
it's a bit of a premarital sex loophole, a way
of getting it on without actually doing the physical act.
It went viral on TikTok in case you want to
go down that Internet rabbit hole, but please google at
your own risk. Can Mormons be queer? Hmm? This question
(06:54):
has been on my mind, my whole life. Can sexuality
and spirituality coexist? From an official standpoint? The Human Rights
Campaign reported from the church website that the experience of
same sex attraction is a complex reality for many people.
(07:17):
The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on
it is. The Church actually considers Mormons who act on
feelings of same sex attraction to have disobeyed church teachings
on morality and thus are subject to discipline. Brad Harker
is the founder of the Peacock Mormons, who are working
to challenge the current policies and systems in place.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
Peacock Mormons started in twenty eighteen. We were just a
group of eighty of us. Most of us were Mormons.
Some of them were friends and were allies that wanted
to support us in the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras,
and we marched in the Mormon missionary attire, which you
know is the white shirt and the badge and the tie.
(08:02):
The badge said Elder Equality on it. We mass for equality.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
So I actually saw the Peacock Mormons march in the
twenty twenty three Sydney Gain Lesbian Martigars parade. They were
dressed in glittery gold in homage to the Golden Angel
Moroneye statue at the peak of every Mormon church building.
Moroneye was a warrior and a catalyst for the Mormon Church,
a shining beacon, guiding people, even the founder, Joseph Smith
(08:28):
to the faith. If I'm going to be honest, I
was a little taken aback. First. I was angry that
the church, in a presumably official capacity, was marching, like
how dare they? After a few deep breaths, the anger
subsided and a larger truth came over that other gay
(08:49):
Mormons existed and that I wasn't alone.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
It was like a statement, a beautiful statement. And every
time we march, we do reach out to the Mormon
prophet and we write a letter and we ask him
to change some of the policies.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
The prophet is like the Beyonce of the Mormon Church.
He is a conduit to our heavenly Father and often
dictates where the church stands on modern social issues.
Speaker 5 (09:12):
So we've made some headway. Once upon a time they
had an awful rule that said, you can't baptize people
if your parents are in the same sex relationship, you
cannot be baptized. Which was really awful and quite an
ugly rule, and they changed it two years after we
marched in twenty eighteen. We weren't the only ones that
asked them to change the policy. There were other people
(09:33):
in the world that joined us as well. It was
a comradeship effort.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
The stakes were extremely high for Brad. He's a sixth
generation Mormon with pioneer lineage, but with a clear sense
of self.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
He came out and they were shocked and Mum said, no,
please like girls, Brad, please like girls. I unfortunately had
to let it down and say, look, I'm dating guys now,
and this is different from what you've been used to.
They still deeply go to church every week they attend
and they receive teachings from the church that gay is
(10:06):
not okay. This is very difficult for them. My father
has the most problems with it. MO Mum is an advocate,
she's embraced she had turned around it and she voted
yes for marriage equality. But my dad, my dad voted no.
He voted against it.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
When it came to Brad's local congregation, his branch, the
reaction was a little different. Homophobia ran rampant in all
levels of that church, So this isn't a surprise to
me at all. The loving community we build as members
from birth all but falls apart when our queerness comes
into play.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
The bishop called me up and wanted to excommunicate me,
and this was an awful thing to have happened because
I was gay. He said, I've heard the rumors from
your wife and we want to excommunicate you.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
The wife in question was from Brad's second marriage.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
We fell out of love. My wife didn't want to
be with me anymore, and so I was going through divorce.
And this made me feel like I should be true
to everyone about my sexuality. So as I've got the
people that have turned on me and have asked me
off communications, and then I've got the other side of
people that have continued the communications with me and are
(11:25):
still positive and they go to church, but they still
engage with me in a positive way.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
While my bishop never tried to excommunicate me, at least
that I know of, my experience was somewhat similar to Brad's.
When I hit puberty and actualized my gayiness, I consciously
uncoupled from the church. People started treating me different. There
were those tough boys again, who tease that I walked
(11:54):
to girly. There were others who did it behind my back,
exchanging sinful theories, hushed conversations. I thought it was impossible
for spirituality and sexuality to coexist, and I've carried that
confusion and internal conflict since testing one, two three, testing
(12:19):
huh speak Hello, Hello, oh Hello. It's like we're sitting
next to each other. We are seven years away. How
crazy is that? With this question heavy on my mind,
I caught up with my friend Lama, a fellow queer Mormon.
We met as adults, but as kids we were part
of neighboring branches that would have crossed paths at some point.
(12:40):
He left two, but he soon found his way back.
Speaker 6 (12:44):
I feel like I'm one of the very lucky cases
where whether it's my family or the people within the
church who have just like really embraced me for the
person that I am to my face at least, like
I always chuck it up to. These people have every
single thing and they're asking to be like, I hate you,
I don't want anything to do with you, but I
(13:05):
have been met with nothing but love from my friends.
Leaders A bit of a different story, but you know what,
people aren't perfect, so can the two actually coexist?
Speaker 4 (13:20):
I was never quite sure, but Brad is.
Speaker 5 (13:23):
This is a misconception, a huge misconception in the gay
community and LGBTQIA plus a lot of people believe that
you cannot have faith and still be gay that I
don't believe those two things can coexist. And this is
so wrong. It's so wrong. There are so many gay
people out there that have faith in a God, or
(13:45):
spirituality or a being, and.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Brad's words give me comfort. Maybe spirituality and sexuality aren't
two completely different things after all. The way I see
it at both their cores is a fundamental truth. Love
conquers all.
Speaker 7 (14:03):
And has given me home with peer, with kind and.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Leave me God me, saide.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
Me, he me fine.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
As much as I've drawn the line with the church,
I guess there are some things about it that I
hope to never shake, parts of the faith that have
made me who I am now. And them thinks so too, Ingrat,
that's faith in your head.
Speaker 6 (14:48):
That is like, you know what, even though like you've
distanced yourself from the church from a very young age,
it's still so present in you. Is this so crazy?
Is it? It is? You're always like, is the anything I
can do? Do you want me to do this? Do
you want me to hold Like it's whether that is
something that is ingrained in us as being members, or
(15:11):
if that's just who you are, but like you know,
it's just so present, it's still active in your mind.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Leaving the church, I had to let go of so
many things, the camaraderie, the community, the friendships. But they're
not gone, not really, They're still here, just not in
the confines of a chalky white hallway.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Oh Mark, congratulations, Oh thank you.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
What a beautiful pace of work. And also I learned
so much.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
You know, what really struck me was the use of
music and how you used not just the voices of
church choirs, but quite different church choirs to build tension,
to sort of calm me back down again, and then
to hear you singing at the end there.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
It was really elegantly done. When you went into this process.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Was music something you were thinking about from the beginning
or did that come in at a later stage.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Music individually is such a big part of who I am.
I love singing, not that well as we just heard.
Actually some of those hymns are my own recording. I
went to the church. I visited sacrament for the first time,
I would say in like upwards of ten years more.
Even more so, this is the first time I went
with my sister and my mum, who are still active
in the church. I recorded it and it was just
(16:44):
like calming presents. Hymns have always been so calming for me,
so I knew I definitely wanted to include that in
the episode.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Tell me about the two interviews with Brad and with Lamart.
Why did you choose those two to speak to What
did you want them to teach the audience through you?
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Lama, We've had so many conversations about this. It's just
it's so funny. And I mentioned this in the episode.
We would have seen each other at some point. We
went to the same large events, we went to the
same big congregations, but it was only until after we
had both left the church that we had met and connected.
And I think that there's an element of fate there.
I think, you know, I needed to encounter someone who
(17:24):
like me, grew up in a really similar environment. I
guess I wanted to sort of know that I wasn't alone,
that someone else struggled with this, that someone else had
a really difficult time YEA. In terms of Brad, I
think he brought a really logistical, pragmatic approach. He took
some direct action, like he addressed the prophet and the presidents,
(17:49):
some pretty high up people to make change and enact
change and advocate for the queer community within the church,
which to me was so shocking to hear because I'd
never heard of that before. I never heard that. I
knew that there were other queer people within the church,
but I didn't know that there was people actively trying
to make change and it was healing. It was healing.
I was like, Oh my goodness, here's someone else who
(18:10):
has figured things out in their own stage of their
life and has used that empowerment to then do that
for other people within the church, which is something that
I'm hoping this episode does. I don't know if I'm
ever going to ring up the profit. I don't know
if I'm ever going to do that, but to know
that there are people like Brad who are is such
a healing thing for me, and I'm hoping for other
(18:30):
people who listen to this too.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
You haven't eased yourself into this process in any way,
have you. You've started with a combination of topics of
sexuality and spirituality. You didn't like pick an easy theme
to kick off. Why did you want to tell this story?
Speaker 4 (18:45):
I think there are just there are people who inherently
struggle with those two things within them. And it was
a journey that, like I said, was something that I'd
been through, but so so so many other people have
as well, and there are still people on this and
he's struggling with that finding this perfect balance between oh
my goodness, am I going to go to hell? Oh
(19:06):
my goodness, can I love who I love freely? Or
am I going to be exiled for this? Am I
going to be punished for this? And that's been on
my mind, I would say, since I was a little kid,
and even up until now. And that is such a
sad thing for a young person to go through, don't
you think There's so many other things you need to
be figuring out in this world, and then to then
(19:27):
have to deal with that too must be such an
intense burden.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I suspect that there are a whole bunch of younger
versions of yourself listening right now who are also going
to benefit enormously from having heard that work.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Well done. Congratulations Matt, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
That was such a powerful way to kick off Unlikely Allies.
In just a moment, you will meet our final storyteller.
This is fine and tell where this week our storytellers
are exploring the theme Unlikely Allies. We just heard from Mark.
(20:07):
Let's meet our next and final storyteller.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
My name is Nan. I am from Stratfield in Sydney
and I work as a news journalist. I like telling
stories with really interesting and strong characters. With normal news reporting,
there's certain styles and durations that really restrict the way
you can tell a story. And there were so many
(20:32):
stories that we were missing out on because a lot
of it ends up on the cutting room floor. And
I felt this way of storytelling would be a perfect
opportunity to dig a little deeper and talk to people
and explore topics that Australia might never be able to
hear of.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Naan, welcome to find and tell.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Hello, thanks for having me.
Speaker 8 (20:58):
Now.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Your background is in news journalism. What did it feel
like moving into a space of telling stories that don't
necessarily have that strong current affairs driver.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
It was like learning another language. To be honest, I
thought everything I knew about storytelling just went out the window,
because with news reporting, it's a lot of reacting to
events or things that people have said. But in this case,
you're actually proactively looking for a conflict or some sort
(21:30):
of new fresh angles. So having to unearth that from
nothing was a bit of a challenge in the beginning,
but I think I got there in the end, I hope.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
So without giving it all away, what led you to
the story we're about to hear?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Growing up Asian in Australia, I've always been interested in
other marginalized communities in society, especially in Australia and the world.
And yeah, whenever there's misconceptions about a certain group of people,
I tend to into that and see if there's a
reason behind that, or some truth behind that, or yeah,
(22:06):
why it's become that way. So that is what led
me down this rabbit hole.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
All right, let's go down the rabbit hole with you.
This is your first contribution to find and tell on
the theme of unlikely allies.
Speaker 6 (22:20):
There's a dangerous threat spreading across the country right now,
and I'm talking about of course.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Karen's maybe you know a Karen.
Speaker 8 (22:32):
Does it bring up some weird things for you When
I say Karen, Yeah, it's taken on a whole new
and somewhat negative life on social media.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Or maybe you are a Karen. There's no denying the
name has come a long way from its Scandinavian origin, Catherine,
meaning pure Karen is now synonymous with a demanding, entitled
woman with a compulsive tendency to ask for the manager.
She's usually middle aged, white and has a bobcut too.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
My definition of Karen would probably be a lady that
seems to be overly involved in other people's business.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
A Karen is a miserable, middle aged woman who is
intent on making everyone else just as miserable as she.
Speaker 5 (23:14):
Is, looking down their nose at everything, just looking for something,
looking for a problem everywhere.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
It wasn't until the pandemic that the K word became
a regular fixture here in Australia. Social distancing, lockdowns and
mandatory mask wearing set the stage for some very unhappy
and very vocal karens. We met Karen from Brighton in
July twenty twenty when she complained about the lockdown walks
around her beachside suburb.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Well, you get sick of walking the same streets.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
You know I've done I've done all of Brighton.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Just a few days later, another Karen emerged, this time
from Bunning's.
Speaker 7 (23:55):
I'm just asking if you've got a mask well, and
you are not all ask me or questioned me about it.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
While memes come and go, it really does seem this
one is here to stay. In twenty twenty two, Karen
dropped out of the most popular baby names list in
the US for the first time. That same year, in
the UK, only one baby Karen was registered. Like family,
we don't get to choose our name. We also don't
(24:26):
get to choose if it will turn into a meme
one day. So what's a Karen to do?
Speaker 4 (24:34):
For me?
Speaker 9 (24:35):
The instinct is to laugh at it is to identify
that stereotype.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Karen James is a TV writer from South Africa. Ever
since her name became internet shorthand for a certain type
of entitled woman, she's been sent every Karen meme you
could think of from her friends. But she doesn't get offended. Instead,
she wants to dig a little deeper.
Speaker 9 (24:55):
You know why. It is funny where the truth is
in that where the social kind of truth and and
nuances lie.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Karen saw how rampant that stereotype of a privileged white
woman was, especially during the pandemic, but she also saw
the benefits being confident and desertive. From there, the Karen
Book of Rules was born. Written with another writer named
Karen Karen Shimco, the book aims to show how we
(25:23):
can use our Karenness for good.
Speaker 9 (25:27):
So the current Book of Rules as a bit of
a tongue in cheek self help guide very much for
how to use your carendness or your Karenness, your white privilege,
I guess for good, how to be the best version
of a Karen in this world.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
The book covers a range of social situations like zoom calls,
dinner parties, and for those times when you actually need
to speak to the manager. There's even a Karen checklist
to help people's self diagnose. After all, anyone can be
a Karen.
Speaker 9 (26:00):
Karen's come in all genders and races and shapes and sizes,
and you can be guilty of those behaviors and centering
yourself in the world even if you're not a white
middle class woman. The underlying thing is, oh, this eurotype
exists because the white middle class women move through the
(26:22):
world in a certain way and occupy a certain space
in society, and let's look at that. Let's critically kind
of examine that.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Karen argues that white women have more power than marginalized
women in society, so they should harness they're in a
Karen that outspoken confidence to help others when they can.
Speaker 9 (26:45):
If you're in a context where you have some social power,
can you help anyone with That? Often happens with friends
that they're looking to rent an apartment and people are
maybe not taking their calls because they're black or whatever
it might be. I've done that for people before they've
asked me, please call and find out if this is
still available and use your own nice white lady.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
Boys.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
On the other end of the Karen scale is one
where you choose to be in the presence of Karen's
excuse me, shut up and listen.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
This is Karen Sharon.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Pritchard here at Karen's Diner. You'll be hard pressed to
find a nice word anywhere. It's an Australian restaurant chain
paying some sort of tribute to the stereotypically through middle
aged Karen. Customers knowingly get roasted while trying to enjoy
the meal. They paid for. But if your name is Karen,
you get a free drink.
Speaker 8 (27:42):
I mean blowing out the candles on a kid's birthday
cake before a chance too, Like who gets to do
that and it's accepted and their parents piss themselves laughing.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Amanda Jane Pritchard is a writer, performer and comedian for Melbourne,
but her stint as a Karen at Karen Steiner is
by far her favorite. She found it surprisingly easy to
get into character, but soon found it difficult to separate
from the role she was playing at work.
Speaker 8 (28:13):
It gets in your system being Karen. You come out
of working like a four hour, five hour shift and
I would walk down lag On Street in Melbourne and
I would be like getting so frustrated with people who
were slow walkers, and I would just be like, get
out of the road. And then one day there was
a pigeon in front of me and I yelled at
the pigeon. I'm like, get out of the way, pigeon.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
The Karen character didn't just improve a comedy, it also
showed Amanda how we're all vulnerable to Karen tendencies, whether
we like it or not. But it turns out it's
not the worst thing in the world.
Speaker 8 (28:48):
It's part of I think also just culturally and we
expect everything immediately now and yeah, and we all feel
really entitled. There's that element of being a Karen and
people expect you to be nasty, but it's more for me.
(29:12):
I took it as being quick and funny and like
trying not to do the regular stuff that.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
You can do.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Inspired by her work at the Diner, Amanda wrote a
musical comedy. It's called The Unbearable Righteousness of Being Karen.
The show uses all the tropes you'd expect from a
modern day Karen, but surprisingly it's the real life Karen's
having the last laugh.
Speaker 8 (29:37):
And a lot of Karen's came loads. That's the other
thing the Diner and my show, a lot of people
coming whose name is Karen, and they're just they're having
fun with it. If a Karen person named Karen can
have fun about it, then I think that's that's the key.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
It's fair to say Karens haven't been having a lot
of lately. In nineteen sixty five, Karen was the most
popular girl's name in Australia, but it's now the butt
of many jokes. Behind every joke though there's always some
truth in the case of Karen's, the meme has compelled
us all to think about race, gender and power in
(30:17):
our society. Take it from a real life Karen.
Speaker 9 (30:21):
There is an ease that white women have in society.
Quite often, they are seen as non threatening by a
lot of society. They are seen as having a certain
status and ability to move through social hierarchies. And so
instead of just using that in a selfish way and
making it about yourself and what you want and what
(30:42):
you need, use that more broadly for other people. I
think that's how we Karen for.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Good, Naan.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
That was so great to listen to, And that phrase
I'm going to Karen for right there at the end
is something I think we need to put on a billboard.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
It's a good motto to live by.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
I reckon, why.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
For you did the story of Karen need to be explored?
What did you want to tell people about?
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I think because it's a word that's so ingrained in
our vocabulary now that we don't even think twice when
we use it and noticing it when it's hurt in context,
you really think about, oh, what if someone is actually
named Karen, or they don't have any agency over their names, so,
you know, having lived their whole lives as a normal
(31:35):
you know Karen, and then suddenly the whole world's against them.
I thought, Yeah, they surely they'd have something they'd want
to share and something they want other people to rethink,
and yeah, just give them a second, second chance and
a second take.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
With this kind of journalism, I think one of the
pitfalls that creators can fall into is assuming knowledge because
you don't know who your audience is, right, you don't
know who's put their headphones on today and listening to
your story. So how did you make choices about what
information you needed to share upfront and immediately so that
the audience had that base level of information to come
(32:10):
into this with.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
So this story, I did a lot of research and
went down lots of rabbit holes about Karen's and I
found out that the general consensus and sentiment around the
world towards Karen's is still quite negative.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Yeah, there's all these hate groups against Karen's on Facebook,
or all these memes and dedicated YouTube channels like you know,
Karen's in the Wild, So there was quite a lot
of Still I felt a lot of hatred towards them.
So there were lots of ways that I thought I
could have went down and to do something serious or
something as you know, hard hitting that I think would
(32:49):
probably do Karen's a disservers and would project more of
their curenners.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
I guess so.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And I got the idea from talking to Karen James,
the author of the Current Book of Rules, that Yeah,
humor is the best way to educate people, and I
thought taking this in a lighthearted, humoristic approach would get
the message across more people, and more people would be
inclined to listen to or want to listen to something
about Karens.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
So any nervousness about this being heard by an audience,
how do you think people will react?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
I am nervous about the Karens around the world hearing
this particular story as well. Amanda one of the talents
that I interviewed who did a musical comedy about Karens.
She had a lot of Karens ride in and try
to get her show canceled.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
So, oh wow, we've got to prepare ourselves. Yes, yes,
let's the network know.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yes, So hopefully it's received well by them. And yeah,
I'm more excited because I think I've probably been keeping
this a secret from most people around me and finally
letting them hear everything in its full glory without all
the stress and all that panic that I went through.
So I'm excited about that.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Naon, congratulations again on your first Find and Tell story.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
I cannot wait to hear more.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Okay, it's time for me to pick who answered the theme
of Unlikely Allies the best? Is it Naar or is
it Mark? You will hear from the winner in just
a moment. This is Fine and Tell and the theme
this week was Unlikely Allies. From the opening lines of
(34:33):
Mark's script, I thought he created real intrigue and interest
in what is a really personal story. I loved how
he used music to bring a real emotional sense of place,
especially his own singing.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
That was very brave, very brave.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
In the future, I'd really love to see a bit
more practice from Mark on his narration. I thought it
was great scripting, but sounded a little bit like he
was reading sometimes. Naon was super prof professional in the
way she approached this, And when we're listening to something
like that, you feel really comfortable, like the person in
the driver's seat has got this under control. I was
(35:09):
concerned that the prompt for this week's episode got a
little lost In Naan's episode, it felt like a tenuous
link to Unlikely Allies, and there was a lot going
on in this episode. I think Naan tried to take
a lot of content and shove it into a very
short period of time, and while it can be really challenging,
I'd love to see her edit a little bit more
in her future episodes. After hearing both stories, I have
(35:34):
decided who our winner is and Hey, Mark, it's going
to be you. What.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Congratulations?
Speaker 4 (35:41):
Oh my god, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Oh thank you, thank you for so generously sharing and
taking us inside a part of your life and also
a big part of who you are.
Speaker 4 (35:53):
Congratulations, Thank you. This isn't a win for me, This
is a win for anyone else who struggles with their
sexuality and their spirituality.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
So now you've heard from all four of our Find
and Tell storytellers.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Do you have a favorite yep?
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Find out all about them at find and tel dot
com dot Au and make sure you don't miss our
next episode. Just hit follow in your podcast app. Find
and Tell is a co production between iHeart Australia and
the black Cast podcast network. Black Cast empowers First Nations
people and people of color to reclaim their narratives, strengthen
(36:37):
cultural identity, and contribute to a more inclusive Australia by
showcasing exciting emerging talent from Australian communities.
Popular Podcasts
1. Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
2. Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
3. Crime Junkie
If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people.