BEST OF
Do difficult workplace conversations terrify you?
Does the idea of having to tell a colleague something they won’t like make you just want to pack up for the day and go home instead?
If that’s the case then returning guest Dom Price might have the mindset flip and strategies you need to approach these conversations with enthusiasm instead of trepidation.
Dom is the resident Work Futurist at Atlassian one of the largest software businesses in the world and has responsibilities spanning 7 global R&D centres.
On top of that he is a celebrated keynote speaker and a former Director of Deliotte.
I wanted to talk to Dom about having difficult conversations in the workplace and was honestly surprised by some of the insights he shared.
In this episode Dom shares:
- Two things you might be doing that are actually making conversations more difficult.
- Tricks you can use to make difficult conversations easier.
- The unique way he prepares for tough conversations that you can do as well.
- How to approach a conversation with someone when you don’t feel safe.
Key Quotes:
“You don’t course correct well by accident, you course correct on purpose.”
“We’ve spent so long talking about psychological safety that we’ve not realised it’s a set of actions, it’s not a set of words.”
“Preparation is good. Over preparation isn’t good.”
Connect Dom via X, Linkedin, or on his website.
My latest book The Health Habit is out now. You can order a copy here: https://www.amantha.com/the-health-habit/
Connect with me on the socials: Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amanthaimber)
Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/amanthai)
If you are looking for more tips to improve the way you work and live, I write a weekly newsletter where I share practical and simple to apply tips to improve your life. You can sign up for that at https://amantha-imber.ck.page/subscribe
Visit https://www.amantha.com/podcast for full show notes from all episodes.
Get in touch at amantha@inventium.com.au
Credits:
Host: Amantha Imber
Sound Engineer: Martin Imber
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I am on a little break for a few weeks,
so I'm re releasing some of my favorite episodes from
the last twelve months. I will be back with brand
new interviews from July thirty one, and until then, enjoy
today's chat. Do difficult workplace conversations terrify you to the
idea of having to tell a colleague something they won't
(00:21):
like make you just want to pack up for the
day and go home instead. If that's the case, then
Dom Price might have the mindset, flip and strategies that
you need to approach these conversations with enthusiasm instead of trepidation.
I'm very excited to have Dom back on the show
once again to get to the bottom of what seems
(00:44):
to be a real problem in a lot of workplaces.
Dom is the resident work futurist at Atlasion, one of
the largest software companies in the world, and has responsibilities
spanning seven global R and D centers. Want to talk
to Don about having difficult conversations at work, and was
(01:04):
honestly surprised by some of the insights he shared. In
this episode, we discussed the common thing many of us
do that makes these conversations more difficult than they need
to be the simple thing he says, we'll make these
conversations even easier, and the unique way he prepares for
difficult conversations that many of us don't do. Welcome to
(01:33):
how I work a show about habits, rituals, and strategies
for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber.
It seems like in the past six months, every second
conversation I have with a client at invent Him is
about how their organization's culture is overly positive and no
one actually feels comfortable having challenging conversations and driving accountability.
(01:57):
What I wanted to know, is this just in my
sphere of experience, or is this something that John has
noticed as well.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
There's a conversation with someone from Inventing that I was
having right about this, like the cancel culture has reached
the workplace, and I was like, oh, and I don't
think I've been aware of it, which probably makes sense.
I'm a middle aged white guy with privilege, right, so
I'm securing my role. Right, I've been at the company
for eleven years. I Am not worrying about where the
next meal comes from. Right, So I'm in a position
(02:30):
where I just have to admit my privilege. It's easier
for me to speak up and have that conversation. But
when they mentioned the cancel culture, I'm like, I suddenly
turned a different lens on it, and I put it
on myself, and I was like, where have I filtered?
Where have I not spoken up? And I actually suddenly
found a list and there was a list. But I
was like, oh, there's times when, if all things were equal,
(02:53):
I probably should have spoken up and said something. But
I did the thing that I tell everyone else not
to do, which is, you know, I just someone hustle,
do it it's fine, or they know they're self aware,
they don't need me, or now it's not a good time,
I'll do it next time, right, And so I did
all the rationalization that we all have kicks in every
now and then. And if I look back, it's because
(03:14):
I sensed right. It's a sense and a belief that
the consequences were too high, so it wasn't worth it.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
So can you give me any example of where you
did hold back and what the consequences were in your mind,
whether that be real or perceived consequences.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
So there was there was a specific workshop that was
the very first memory that triggered me, right, and I
remember sitting there and thinking it was going off track,
probably like midway through the first morning, and in my head,
and this is a fascinating thing about this topic. It's
the voice in the head, which me and you know
is highly irrational, very mean, and quite cutting. Right, it's
(03:52):
not a supportive at all. But the voice in the
head is saying, if you speak up now, you know
how you're going to be perceived. It's you again, you
doing that thing you do. And so I'm having a
whole chat in my head. And the net result of
that chat was don't speak up right, let the workshop
run its course. Now I think I was half right
and half wrong. I needed to let it run a
(04:12):
little bit and maybe I could navigate or be suggestive.
I didn't need to bang the table and go, this
is a complete waste of time. Now, you're all idiots.
I started going to That's not what I was suggesting,
but I misconstrued how my words would be interpreted so
much that it was safer not to say anything and
hope that the workshop works itself out, which again me
(04:34):
and you know, very rarely happens. Right, You don't cause correct,
well by accident, you course correct on purpose. So I
end up waiting till the end of the first day.
When I had a moment with the person facilitating, I
was like hey, and they're like, I, how do you
think it's going really good? Right? I was like, ah,
not great, And so I finally got the confidence up
to say something, and the look of horror on their
(04:56):
face and the only words they said, by which destroyed me.
They were like, I just wish you'd said something earlier
and I could have done something, And I was like,
oh no.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Not having the difficult conversation has massive consequences. So I
want to ask, why is this happening so much now?
Why was I not hearing and maybe you weren't hearing
back in twenty twenty three, because we're recording this in
October twenty twenty four. What is happening now that is
making this so hard to have these conversations.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I think there's a few DYNAMICXIT player. I think just generally,
we've spent so long talking about psychological safety that we've
not realized it's a set of actions, it's not a
set of words. So I think that's and I've seen
that play out right, And I know we spoke about
this before I seen it in saying you know, we're
in a safe space, and you're like, you know, you
(05:50):
don't get to say that and create it, right, It's
how I feel, not the words to come out of
your mouth. Right, So yeah, a bit of a like
red flag number one. I think psychological safety is a
term is banded around, but probably not that well understood
in terms of the actions you take to create it.
I also think, like in all honesty, I think we're
still building the muscle of how to work in a
distributed world. I don't think it's entirely natural for many
(06:12):
of us. Right, I'm forty six years old, So if
you think, like when the pandemic hit, I was like
forty one. So I'd worked for twenty one years in
predominantly office environments, right, always in multinational organizations around the world.
But I had a desk and an office and a screen, right,
and that was the mechanism of work. And for the
last sort of four years that's not been the case.
That's four years to learn a new way of working
(06:33):
after twenty one years of that way being in grain.
So I think we've not done enough unlearning, and I
think the pendulum swing of return to office no flexibility, No,
it's hybrid, like that whole pendulum swings. That's sort of
not helped. And then just thirdly, I think the cancel
culture has crept in. And I've spoken about a wonderful
conversation with a lady by an mfmy Penn something. She
(06:55):
was saying that she's been coaching a whold of like
middle aged guys who are like I do put my
hand up and go for a promotion because I'm a
middle aged white guy. And I was like what, and
she explained it. I was like, oh, we've kind of
we've had their reverse. So the example I'd give, and
I saw this firsthand with one of my customers recently,
one of the senior leaders is like they had a
diversity and inclusion person that just took great enjoyment in
(07:19):
pointing out the one thing that you got wrong. And
so one of the leaders had put out of communication
it was ninety nine percent right, one percent wrong, and
they got pulled over the coals for it being wrong
is wrong, Like it wasn't a fully inclusive communication. You
got it wrong. So that leader's just stopped communicating, They've
not changed how they communicate. They're like, there's no point
I feel do it that well and still get pulled
(07:41):
over the coals. I just won't do it again. And
they're in a leadership position, So just think about it.
If this is a leader who should be storytelling, to
tell a story to build awareness and context in psychological safety,
and they decide not to because they think the consequences
is too high, you've just lost psychological safety. So no
one's going to speak up anymore. Like it. It's a
self fulfilling prophecy. So I like in it. And I
(08:03):
know you've got kids as well. When me and Becker
first had their kids and then we had a conversation
which was, let's start every situation with forgiveness. We're tired,
this is our first time of being parents. We're going
to get it wrong. Don't shout at me for getting
it wrong. Try and understand what happened and how it
went wrong. Right, So starting with forgiveness that feels normal
in a relationship, but in the work context, I'm going
(08:24):
to start by pointing out the thing that you're missing,
not the things that you've gotten. That just seems like
a dangerous precedent to me.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
I would love to get into how you approach difficult conversations,
and I might share some of the things that I do,
but I don't think that I am doing it particularly well.
It's definitely an area where I need work, so I'm
keen to learn from you, Dom. I would love to
know to start with, what are the main types of
difficult conversations that you're finding you're having and maybe others
(08:54):
at lassie and needing to have.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
In the workplace, it's almost always a dore of feedback, right,
And it could be feedback in the in the here's
something you did or didn't do. It could be feedback
in that every now and then, yeah, I work I
saw with this as well. We don't all have one
hundred percent of self awareness. So every now and then
it's one telling you something that you've not acknowledged or
seen yet and you're like, oh, like, I don't know
(09:17):
how that's going to go down. So it's normally pointing
something out that is somewhat controversial or fueled in some way. Right,
it's a hot topic where you're nervous about the consequences. Right,
it feels like there might be recourse. That's why it's
fascinating because one of the first things is just reframe, right,
it's just conversation. The fact that we label it difficult
(09:39):
conversation or crucial conversation, suddenly we've upped the odds and
you're like, oh no, this is now a difficult conversation.
I must go and prepare for said in whose eyes?
Is it difficult? Like we've already labeled it a bad thing? Right,
so mindset wise, God knows chemically what's going on in
our brain. When you're like, I'm now sitting you down
for a difficult and I imagine this one that Amantha, I'm
(10:01):
now going to sit you down for a difficult conversation,
Like why is it difficult? What's difficult about it? So
I actually the reframe of like either if I don't
say this, what happens as you said before, or otherwise
that I think about it as a gift. If it's
someone's not seeing something and I'm helping them build more
awareness and I'm doing it with good intent, I'm not
doing it for wan upmanship or for maliciousness, then that's
(10:22):
a gift. It genuinely should be a gift. And if
I reframe it like that, my words are very different.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
What else are you doing to prepare for that conversation?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Lots of questions if you know me well enough to
not I suffer with an abundance of confidence, which can
be quite destructive. And so I'm always like, oh, if
I've seen something and I've used the halo effectacy again
and again and again, what biases am I applying to
this That might may or may not be true, but
they're certainly influencing the way I'm seeing it. I always
(10:52):
think that for any stimulus you put in the middle
of a room, if hundred of us stood around in
a circle, we're all looking at the same thing, but
we've got a different view. And so I have to
check my biases every now and then. And then. Normally
the hardest question to answer, but one that's full of wonderment,
is what might be going on for that person right now.
It's not that you can ever answer that, but it's
(11:13):
just one of going You probably know a fraction of
a percentage of what's happening with them, so be careful.
I don't make assumptions about what's going on with them,
and therefore charging with answers maybe charging there subtly, but
with questions like what is going on right now? How
are you going? So the question I asked this person,
I was like, how did you think that the workshop went?
(11:34):
And they were like amazing? And I was like, oh good, good.
In that case, would you like my view because it's
a participant. But my question to then was what are
you seeing that made you think it was amazing? Because
I'm genuinely curious about that. You They weren't lying, They
genuinely thought it was. So I'm like, you explain your
world and it'll make me more aware of what you
(11:54):
what signals you took in. Too many of us enter
the conversation to go so I'm going to persuade you
why I'm right and you're wrong. And that's not a
difficult conversation. That's a one way conversation. Versus, tell me
more about your situation, your world, what's going on? How
did you find that that that's bringing them into the conversation.
It's a completely different model.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
It's interesting because I can see how that can apply
to giving someone feedback, But I wonder when it is
an objectively hard conversation, like let's just say it's pay
review time someone hasn't hit their targets and you're there
to tell them you're not getting a pay rise for
another twelve months. Like that is not a fun conversation.
There is no way of spinning that to go. But
(12:36):
what's your perspective? Do you maybe think this is the roundestad?
How is it different in those instances where I think
we can agree this is objectively not a good conversation
to be having for anyone.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Maybe I'm just like an absolute narcissist, but I've had
those conversations in my career and I don't mind them
because the normal normally based off a fact like this
was your target. You did not hit that target. So
I think facts are friends. Right when you've got a fact,
you're like, ah, this isn't my opinion anymore. It's not
I don't think you made your target. You didn't make
your target, but you're like, cool, okay, so that didn't
(13:08):
happen and the consequences of that are and then normally
it's a reset to go how do you feel about that?
Because I always want to check in with the person
as that make you feel if they're like I expected
it and you hadn't. In my target, but you're like okay,
or they're like I didn't meet it and I still
think I should have had one hundred percent pay round.
You're like, okay, that's a different problem to solve, but
I need to know your perspective is a very important
data point. But then that's a flip of a conversation
(13:31):
to go do you want an invite? Do you want
to have a career conversation about what thriving looks like
here and how we can work together to do that,
or don't you That's a genuine option, And because sometimes
people are like, nah, I've reached my pinnacle or I'm
done here. I don't like it and I want to
move on. You're like, oh, there's no point met sugar
coating into the bad news. You're done here and let's
have a chat about how we help you gracefully exit
(13:53):
and what's next. Or they're like, no, I'm in here's
the circumstances that meant I didn't nail it last year.
How can we have a conversation about what that looks
like if I'm thriving. I think what makes that conversation harder,
manth is how long we leave it for it's the
time difference between missing the target and having the chat.
(14:15):
Because you missed the target, having that chat is in context, Hey,
who's your target? We set that's fair, Like, let's have
a meaningful conversation about why did you miss? What the ups,
what were the downs, what the circumstances. That's a great
time to have that conversation. Three months later, when you
book a meeting with the person, that's an ambush. It's like, oh,
this is a fate to complete. You missed, You don't
(14:36):
like it's over, and so I don't think that's a
particularly engaging conversation. That's what I used to work with
and said, bad news doesn't get better with time, and
it doesn't, but we just leave it too long with
the hope that something magical will make it better. It doesn't,
so it then feels like an ambush and it's too late.
I can't cause correct, I can't do anything different.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
We will be back with Don soon, and when we return,
we'll be discussing the unique way he prepares for difficult
conversations and his's advice on what you can do to
safely have a difficult conversation with someone in a higher
position than you. If you're looking for more tips to
(15:14):
improve the way you work can live. I write a
short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have
helped me personally. You can sign up for that at
Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. You mentioned that
you ask like or you think about in preparation for
(15:35):
the conversation, asking questions like do you write these down?
Because I know you're a natural question asker. I can
very well see you just going in and improvising brilliantly
in these conversations.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
But do you.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Actually prepare, like, sit down and write the things that
are on your mind, the things that you're curious about,
even do a role play? Does any of this happen
in your world?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
No? Not in a glamorous way. What what I do
do is I write down themes for my style of
learning and work. Questions can be my enemy because if
I have questions written down, I will ask them even
if the answer to the previous question made the next
question null and vote right, because I'm like, well it's
here that's getting you like, that's weird. It's like I'm
(16:20):
working with a machine now, versus saying thematically, what do
I want to cover. So like thematically, what I want
to cover right now with you is what's happening at
how or life in general. I want to cover the
specificit of you're working your task, and I want to
cover the fact that you missed three months off because
you had to sick leave. Right, They're the things I
want to cover. And under the banner of those, I
want to ask the most open question possible, not leading questions,
(16:44):
but open questions. I want to give you an honest
chance to share and portray your view the world. Again,
you're not right, I'm not right, You're not wrong, I'm
not wrong. We can have a difference of opinion. But
with those questions, I'm like, these are the three themes, right,
the three data points. Let's talk about them. Which one
do you want to start with? Is not like my
first question because I want them to pick. I don't
want to say I want to start with your sales technique, right,
(17:07):
because I think that's the most important. I want then say,
you know what, The thing I really want to start
with is the home situation. Here's my environment right now
in my life and what's going on. You're like, ah, okay,
that gives me a rich context as to why other
things are happening. But letting them build their own adventure
there gives me a whole lot of answers that they're
not giving me that if I ask a specific question,
(17:27):
I might get a specific answer, but I don't know
the answer I would have got if I'd ask the
broader question. And so when I treat these as a
genuine two way conversation, and for that, I have to
give myself the permission of time, which we don't give ourselves.
Were like, I've got ten minutes to have a crucial
conversation your crap right, versus going I've got an hour
for this. And it's not that I've got a single
(17:48):
objective in mind to make you think that you're bad.
I just want to cover the data points and have
a rich tapestry for conversation and agree some kind of
next steps. And so when I give myself time to
do that and open questions and those things, that feels
like a nice structure for me versus these are the
specific questions I want to ask, because I find I
get specific answers which often satisfy what I wanted to hear.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
It's funny, don't we prepare in such different ways, Like
I feel like I'm pretty good at improvising. I even
studied it for many years of my life. But when
I know that I have a difficult conversation, and I
like your point about, well, if you're framing it in
your mind that it's going to be a difficult conversation,
then that's not helping anyone. But sometimes the reality is
(18:32):
I know that I'm here to deliver some news that
is going to be hard to take, and that is
objectively going to be a bit of a crappy conversation.
I think I go the other way. I do a
lot of preparation and I sort of I write down
different possibilities. I think about what can I control, And
something I always want to be in a difficult conversation
(18:54):
is I want to be clear, because I feel like
clarity is very helpful.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yeah, vagaries don't help one in those conversations.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
No, But I feel like people err on the side
of being vague and indirect because that almost feels like
the easier option.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah, feel safer, it does, it does.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
So I will write down what are the key messages
that I feel like I need to clearly deliver in
this conversation and it's funny. I love how you are
giving the person that you're having that conversation with a
lot of autonomy to choose their own adventure. I'm learning
from that because in my mind, I'm thinking, what is
(19:32):
the best structure to get across these things that feel
difficult but I need to get across. And I think
you know, some conversations it is more about feedback and
it can go in different ways. But maybe more recently,
I've had to have a few tough conversations that it's
like I've got news to deliver. It sucks, and I
feel like I need to create a bit of a
(19:53):
guidebook for myself and then I will role play with
my partner if it's a really difficulty conversation that I'm
feeling stressed about. And I feel like I spend an
inordinate amount of time preparing for these conversations. I don't
know if it's making me any better at them. I
think it's maybe increasing my nerves because of the weight
that I'm putting on it. What feedback would you give me,
(20:16):
Tom about this process, because it's like leagues apart from yours.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I think the first headline is preparation is not bad,
But I'd hate lot to take away from this conversation
that just go with your instinct and fly by the
seat your pantag. That's going to create a hold of
really wacky, like messed up crucial conversations. So I think
a little bit of preparation goes well. I prepare with themes,
understanding and contexts. I get my facts. I've always got
my Bulley point facts written down that I want to
(20:41):
make sure I cover. But but I'm doing a very
different type of prep to you. So I think, regardless
of what kind of personality style you are, preparation's good.
Over preparation isn't good. And there isn't a moment when
you go at that minute you over prepared, like I think,
it's when you think you can control the conversation. And
that for me is this massive red flag. And I
(21:03):
fall into this trap before of thinking it's my conversation
and it's not. It's our conversation. And if I'm role
playing and they have no idea what I'm role playing for,
and they only get that sense in the first thirty seconds,
and they were telling you, I don't worry. I spent
all night rehearsing when partner, I've got this, I've got
it down to fifty five minutes. Right, Oh, right, Like
(21:24):
that's that's not a conversation anymore, that's a broadcast. So
I think preparation is good, but we need to just
be honest that these conversations are very rarely perfect, and
so how do you let them take on some level
of organic and natural course? And for that, I'm like,
I need to open my ears and close my mathith.
Occasionally some prep goes well, but I'm like, I need
(21:45):
to be open to the idea that this conversation might
be derailed and that could be a good thing.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I'm hearing that. I feel like maybe I maybe I've
gone too far in over preparing. I sometimes think this
in my partner comments, he said, oh my gosh, the
amount of time you spend preparing for conversations that are
going to be challenging. I've never seen anyone spend that
much time preparing for.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
What drives you to do that? I get what you're doing.
What's the driving for?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Yeah, it's a good question. I think that you know
for reasons that I'm sure emerged in just like my
upbringing and my experience as a child. I think I
have a fear of the person that I'm speaking to
about the difficult thing getting really angry with me, and
that like when I figured that out, actually figured that
(22:30):
out in therapy because I was talking to my therapist
about a really difficult conversation I was preparing for and
he said, what do you think is going to happen?
And I said, I think they're going to scream at
me or that's what That's my deepest fear. And that
really happens in most workplaces. Well, I guess not. You know,
there is anly workwises that would happen.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
It's also like it's still in mine.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Yeah, I think I have a fear of being maybe
misconstrued or misinterpreted, and I think that feeds into that
cancer culture where I've experienced that in the past, where
I've just I've got one small thing wrong and it's
just had really big consequences.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, the nineteen percent right and the one cent exactly,
It can be paralyzed. Yeah, because when when you've put
so much of your and you're a heart and soul
kind of person, right, You've you've run your own business,
you've scaled up a business. You care about your people
when you're doing that. It's not all about profit. There's
a lot of care involved, right, and when you do that,
and so one goes, here's the one thing you got wrong.
I just want to flip the table and take those
(23:29):
people down because you're like, why can't you account for
the bits that went well. I'm happy to have the
chat about the one percent that went wrong, but can
we have the context of when it went wrong and
how and all the things that went well, because otherwise
it seems a little bit overly negative.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
I mean, imagine if people started doing that dom I
feel like that would be quite transformative. Something else I'm
curious about, something I am aware of in myself is
that just in those few minutes before I entered the
zoom call or the team's call or whatever channel i'ming
this difficult conversation through, is that I feel my nerves
(24:04):
and I've started using different breathing techniques just to calm
myself down, just in those three to four minutes before
I connect with that person. Do you experience nerves before
these conversations?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I can't imagine you experiencing nerves.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I can't explain it. I do this other scenarios where
I feel nerves or nervous excitement, like when people explain
the negative nerves that the anxiety, the heart poplitation. I
don't think I've ever had that, or not in my
recent memory, ever had that. And the weird thing for
me is I'm actually the opposite of that. If I
can give them one insight that makes them more rounded
(24:42):
as a leader, that's the gift of the session. If
they hate me at the end of that, so be it.
I can't control their mood and feelings towards but I can't,
so I'm going to like I can influence it, can't
control it, but I can control whether I'm honest with
them or not. So if I'm honest with them and
I give them the gift of a bit of feedback
or an insight or a lesson or something that says, hey,
I think if you can find a way of building
(25:02):
this into your living style, I think you become a
more rounded leader. And here's why. Here's the example, here's
the scenario. Then I've done much job right. So it's
like a weird flip moment. But the nerves, I don't
know why. Maybe it's a weird child to think. I
just don't get nerves in those scenarios.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
What you're saying around the reframing what you're about to
say as a gift. I like that, But what if
it's genuinely not? Like, what if it is just an
objectively crappy conversation like I'm sorry, we have to let
you go, or your performance is not up to scritch,
you are fired. Are you still finding a way to
(25:39):
see that as a gift because you're freeing them up
for the thing that they're meant to be doing. Like,
how are you viewing that?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
The gifts in things? Sounds geeky right when you apply
to overy scenario. It sounds a bit tripe, right, But
I'm like, where do we use the word positive in
any negative situation? Are there some positives we can take
for it? Yeah? There are. Now whether you look at
those positives or not completely up to you. If you
don't just live in the negative, I think you're going
(26:05):
to spiral down. So that's your choice. But my choice
would be to lay in a little bit and not
a false positivity, but like honest positivity, which is, hey,
it didn't work out here, here's why my suggestions you
would be the next time you're looking for a job
in a different environment, look for these kind of facets.
I think you might do a little bit better in
this kind of environment rather than this one that didn't
really suit you. Right, they're not going to like that,
(26:27):
but I think that gives them something directionally to say,
you still need work, if you still need to keep
a roof over your head and feed your family and
whatever else. So when you go out for work and
I give you a suggestion about where you might find that,
right or next time, your attitude in these scenarios meant
that you were hard to work with, so no one
worked with you. Maybe having a think about why you're
turning up like that? Is there some where you can
(26:47):
get help from? Right? Is it some kind of counseling
service or mentor or character or, like you said, therapy
where you can go and understand why you are the
way you are. So with the harshest feedback of hat
even though it hurt, and even when from someone that
I didn't like, still had a grain of truth in it.
Now I could easily use the power of rastalization to go,
I don't like that person, so I'm going to choose
(27:07):
to ignore it and you go, or I can partner
the fact that I don't like them and go. They
still felt that way enough to say it out loud,
So maybe there's a grain of salt in it, and
maybe I should be a little bit reflective about why
it happened in that way.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
How about during the conversation. And I know you're not
the biggest fan of frameworks, but you know sometimes they're
useful when it comes to delivering feedback.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, in a tough conversation, having some structure, like even
if it's like I want to spend twenty minutes here,
ten here and ten, anything like.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
That just helps tell me what structure or framework or
kind of guidelines do you use when you're thinking about
how to deliver feedback to someone in a way that
they're really going to hear it.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
The first most important thing for me is context, like
either me providing them context about why we're having the
conversation and all them providing me with context about where
they're at. And then as early as possible, here's a
set of facts. So the truth is, we had a
workshop together, and the objective of that workshop was to
get all of our stakeholders aligned on our mission? How
(28:09):
did you feel that when? And I say, okay, what
does the feedback sey? Because you feel like it went well,
But let's present the other fact. What did the feedback
say from the stakeholders? Oh, sixty percent of debt and
forty percent weren't that bothered? Okay? The data is telling
us that we didn't quite get there. If we had
our time again, what could we've done differently to get
more stakeholders on board of that workshop? Which stakeholders do
(28:31):
you think we missed? And then normally it's me giving
them some feedback around if to get that higher? Here's
three suggestions, right, here's something that we could do better
to drive that. What help do you need the next
time you were in a workshop? Because this is going
to happen again. That's always the part of the conversation
that I think gets missed. So I think we call
it a difficult conversation. Can we think about the bit
in the middle that here's why I have to tell
(28:52):
you the workshop didn't go well. We forget about why
do you think the workshop didn't go well? And we
forget about that? How can I help you do a
workshop it next time? We forget about those bits and go,
I'm plaed to give you some really bad news. And
so I think just just that that as a rough
structure for me, is a conversation, and it doesn't flow
in a linear fashion, right, I jump around, But they're
(29:13):
the elements that I'm trying to bring in. For for
any observation I share, there's got to be a so
what next time this happens? What are we going to
do differently? And if the answer is nothing, you've clearly
not heard the feedback.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
So there's the shared context, there's the facts, there's the
feedback that emerges from the facts.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
It has normally got like an asterisk of behavior m
as well. That's what I'm trying to bring in behavior. Right,
So in that workshop example, it's like when you didn't
engage with this specific stakeholder, That's why I think they
didn't score the workshop positively, right, They didn't feel like
they were engaged properly. So that the behavior was you
spoke to these three people that you know, well, you
(29:51):
forgot about the fourth person that you didn't know as well.
Did you realize you did that? In the workshop? You
spent more time with AB and C and not enough
time with D.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
So then you're giving them advice and working at if
they essentially need help implementing that advice. Is there a
point where you're asking them to come up with their
own solutions? Does that happen between the feedback giving and
the advice giving.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Typically, it's normally the question of oh, the statement this
is going to happen again, So how did we achieve a
dif an outcome? Or if you had your time again,
how would you do it differently? Again? Going back through
that scenario can be quite helpful because it's not abstract,
it's real. It happened right as you could go, Oh,
if I had my time again after lunch, I think
I would have done another ice breaker and got I
(30:36):
would have sent those people were engaged. Or I could
have done a reflective exercise just before lunch. We could
have done thumbs right, how's the one feeling? And if
I would have picked the people that were thumb sideway
is not awesome? Not awful? I would have grabbed them
at lunch time and checked in why and course corrected right,
See like, oh, can we do that next time? Because
they all sound very dual? Yes we can. Cool, let's
do those next time? Right, So now we set a
(30:58):
new expectation of how we're going to perform, rather than
you didn't perform, So we use the inspiration, right, the
trigger of it didn't go well, that's the trigger. The
purpose of the conversation, though, isn't that The purpose of
the conversation is how do we make it better next time?
That's the only point of having the conversation. If all
(31:19):
I do is tell you about it something I've just
buried you. I've not made you a better person, I've
made you a worse person.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
What do you do after the conversation, Because that sounds
like a really productive conversation that you're having. What is
your role as the feedback giver in making sure that
behavior does change for the better and that you're not
sitting with that person a month later with the exact
same feedback.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, there was one a while ago, probably out a
year ago. I set the person just so you know,
that wasn't an enjoyable conversation for me. I don't want
to be having this conversation again in six months time.
So what do I need to do or what do
we need to do? Like this? There's accountability on both
us here because I don't want to be doing this
dance again. It's not it's not a great use of
my sumon, and I think it's a great use of your.
Neithers are in a great mood after it. It was important,
(32:03):
but it wasn't a high five or round bouncy conversation.
And then what we came out with there was we
agreed milestones, so it wasn't just actually, it's like, Hey,
here's the things I'm going to go away and try
in the next four weeks. Let's check it in four
weeks time. I was like, ooh, what progress do you
think you will have made in four weeks that I
can hold you account before you helped set my expectation
of what I should see, because you're not going to
(32:24):
have miraculously changed, but like, what does progress look like
at that milestone? And then at the two months and
the three like and we agreed that that was a
healthy conversation that they also included some feedback for me
in there that they didn't feel I'd been particularly clear
in my expectation. I was like, good feedback. And then
we talked about the anti pattern, so I was like, hey,
the anti patter here is next time you're in a workshop,
(32:47):
I dive in and run it. That's the anti pat
No one's won there. I've used my time on something
that I shouldn't be doing. You've lost control of the situation.
So you feel kind of disengaged, right, kind of not
very empowered, and we should agree that that's the anti pattern.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Anti pattern. I've never heard that term before. Anti pattern.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Yeah, we use it all the time to go how
do we call out the inadvertent bad behavior or the
negative thing? Right, So it's just a healthy way of going.
Every way of working has a set of consequences that
we can't always see. So you're like, oh, let's see them,
let's call them out. What might go wrong here and
therefore let's call that out now. It reduces the chance
to be happening.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I want to circle back to something that we touched
on right at the beginning, which is around psych safety.
How then have you coached, say, other people you know
within your workplace or people that you help where they
maybe need to have a difficult conversation with someone that
is higher up in the hierarchy. But they're saying, dom,
(33:46):
I just don't feel psychologically safe. What advice do you
give them.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
It's normally a question of what's your intended outcome here?
What's the real goal? Then it's taught me through this situation,
give me the examples what happened like, and that's me
sense checking their examples to their goal, right, which are
almost always out of kill teth like, my goal is
it's a gift. Don't want to help them be a
better leader. And you're like and then I'm like cool,
(34:10):
like told me to the example of life and they
said this, and they said that, and you're like, that's
basically you've become a gossip and you're trying to diminish
the person. So is there's clearly a power issue dynamic
or a political dynamic here that that you're not talking
to me about that that's there, right, and that's part
of the coaching to go, hey, if you went into
that conversation that way, everyone's a loser. Right. So there's
(34:30):
the lose loose scenario. They feel like, crap, they've lost
all faith in you. You're not going to give me
on a project again, they don't want to work with you.
That's you pay rise Like, that's a lose lose. What
does the win win? Look like right, and what might
be the scenarios where you help them and they help you,
and where your relationship has improved from that conversation not deteriorated.
And that's hard because when you look at those conversations
(34:52):
play out, the majority of them are a deterioration of
relationship versus going if my intent here is to build
bamb and fix the relationship, how might I turn up
to help do that? Right? And it's it's kind of
the old school Olive branch. I often in those situations
like I'm going to go first, right, So I'm going
(35:12):
to walk up to that person, go hey, I know
there's been a few scenarios where we work together and
I've pissed you off. I want to level that, like,
here's what happened, here's why, here's a situation. I'm not
right for doing it, but it happened, and I go that. However,
one of the things I've really loved to talk to you about,
if that's okay, is a few of the things I've
found how you've interacted that haven't got the best out
of me. Is that a conversation you'd be will't haveing it?
(35:33):
And if so, when right? But I've gone first with
my olive branch, so I've presented some safety, whereas I
think sometimes we turn up in those conversations like we're perfect,
like I'm amazing, I'm here to let you know your frailties.
That's not cool, that's that's not going to work. Like
I'm great and you're mediocre, and it's just a matter
of time until I tell you that that's not a
relationship building conversation, it's a relationship destroying conversations. So I
(35:57):
think we're going to be really careful with language and intent.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I love that, Dom, Dom. I wish i'd had this
conversation many years ago. I feel like there have been
many instances where I would have loved to have channel
your advice. So thank you so much for sharing so generously.
I know I'm definitely taking away a lot of practical tips.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
I can't wait for your feedback.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I hope you'll love this chat with Dom as much
as I did. I know that I'll be trying out
a few of these techniques and ideas when preparing for
my next difficult conversation. And if you're keen to find
out more about Dom, you can find a link to
his website and social media channels in the show notes.
If you like today's show, make sure you hit follow
(36:41):
on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.
How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of
the Warrangery people, part of the cool And Nation.
I am on a little break for a few weeks,
so I'm re releasing some of my favorite episodes from
the last twelve months. I will be back with brand
new interviews from July thirty one, and until then, enjoy
today's chat. Do difficult workplace conversations terrify you to the
idea of having to tell a colleague something they won't
(00:21):
like make you just want to pack up for the
day and go home instead. If that's the case, then
Dom Price might have the mindset, flip and strategies that
you need to approach these conversations with enthusiasm instead of trepidation.
I'm very excited to have Dom back on the show
once again to get to the bottom of what seems
(00:44):
to be a real problem in a lot of workplaces.
Dom is the resident work futurist at Atlasion, one of
the largest software companies in the world, and has responsibilities
spanning seven global R and D centers. Want to talk
to Don about having difficult conversations at work, and was
(01:04):
honestly surprised by some of the insights he shared. In
this episode, we discussed the common thing many of us
do that makes these conversations more difficult than they need
to be the simple thing he says, we'll make these
conversations even easier, and the unique way he prepares for
difficult conversations that many of us don't do. Welcome to
(01:33):
how I work a show about habits, rituals, and strategies
for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber.
It seems like in the past six months, every second
conversation I have with a client at invent Him is
about how their organization's culture is overly positive and no
one actually feels comfortable having challenging conversations and driving accountability.
(01:57):
What I wanted to know, is this just in my
sphere of experience, or is this something that John has
noticed as well.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
There's a conversation with someone from Inventing that I was
having right about this, like the cancel culture has reached
the workplace, and I was like, oh, and I don't
think I've been aware of it, which probably makes sense.
I'm a middle aged white guy with privilege, right, so
I'm securing my role. Right, I've been at the company
for eleven years. I Am not worrying about where the
next meal comes from. Right, So I'm in a position
(02:30):
where I just have to admit my privilege. It's easier
for me to speak up and have that conversation. But
when they mentioned the cancel culture, I'm like, I suddenly
turned a different lens on it, and I put it
on myself, and I was like, where have I filtered?
Where have I not spoken up? And I actually suddenly
found a list and there was a list. But I
was like, oh, there's times when, if all things were equal,
(02:53):
I probably should have spoken up and said something. But
I did the thing that I tell everyone else not
to do, which is, you know, I just someone hustle,
do it it's fine, or they know they're self aware,
they don't need me, or now it's not a good time,
I'll do it next time, right, And so I did
all the rationalization that we all have kicks in every
now and then. And if I look back, it's because
(03:14):
I sensed right. It's a sense and a belief that
the consequences were too high, so it wasn't worth it.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
So can you give me any example of where you
did hold back and what the consequences were in your mind,
whether that be real or perceived consequences.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
So there was there was a specific workshop that was
the very first memory that triggered me, right, and I
remember sitting there and thinking it was going off track,
probably like midway through the first morning, and in my head,
and this is a fascinating thing about this topic. It's
the voice in the head, which me and you know
is highly irrational, very mean, and quite cutting. Right, it's
(03:52):
not a supportive at all. But the voice in the
head is saying, if you speak up now, you know
how you're going to be perceived. It's you again, you
doing that thing you do. And so I'm having a
whole chat in my head. And the net result of
that chat was don't speak up right, let the workshop
run its course. Now I think I was half right
and half wrong. I needed to let it run a
(04:12):
little bit and maybe I could navigate or be suggestive.
I didn't need to bang the table and go, this
is a complete waste of time. Now, you're all idiots.
I started going to That's not what I was suggesting,
but I misconstrued how my words would be interpreted so
much that it was safer not to say anything and
hope that the workshop works itself out, which again me
(04:34):
and you know, very rarely happens. Right, You don't cause correct,
well by accident, you course correct on purpose. So I
end up waiting till the end of the first day.
When I had a moment with the person facilitating, I
was like hey, and they're like, I, how do you
think it's going really good? Right? I was like, ah,
not great, And so I finally got the confidence up
to say something, and the look of horror on their
(04:56):
face and the only words they said, by which destroyed me.
They were like, I just wish you'd said something earlier
and I could have done something, And I was like,
oh no.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Not having the difficult conversation has massive consequences. So I
want to ask, why is this happening so much now?
Why was I not hearing and maybe you weren't hearing
back in twenty twenty three, because we're recording this in
October twenty twenty four. What is happening now that is
making this so hard to have these conversations.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I think there's a few DYNAMICXIT player. I think just generally,
we've spent so long talking about psychological safety that we've
not realized it's a set of actions, it's not a
set of words. So I think that's and I've seen
that play out right, And I know we spoke about
this before I seen it in saying you know, we're
in a safe space, and you're like, you know, you
(05:50):
don't get to say that and create it, right, It's
how I feel, not the words to come out of
your mouth. Right, So yeah, a bit of a like
red flag number one. I think psychological safety is a
term is banded around, but probably not that well understood
in terms of the actions you take to create it.
I also think, like in all honesty, I think we're
still building the muscle of how to work in a
distributed world. I don't think it's entirely natural for many
(06:12):
of us. Right, I'm forty six years old, So if
you think, like when the pandemic hit, I was like
forty one. So I'd worked for twenty one years in
predominantly office environments, right, always in multinational organizations around the world.
But I had a desk and an office and a screen, right,
and that was the mechanism of work. And for the
last sort of four years that's not been the case.
That's four years to learn a new way of working
(06:33):
after twenty one years of that way being in grain.
So I think we've not done enough unlearning, and I
think the pendulum swing of return to office no flexibility, No,
it's hybrid, like that whole pendulum swings. That's sort of
not helped. And then just thirdly, I think the cancel
culture has crept in. And I've spoken about a wonderful
conversation with a lady by an mfmy Penn something. She
(06:55):
was saying that she's been coaching a whold of like
middle aged guys who are like I do put my
hand up and go for a promotion because I'm a
middle aged white guy. And I was like what, and
she explained it. I was like, oh, we've kind of
we've had their reverse. So the example I'd give, and
I saw this firsthand with one of my customers recently,
one of the senior leaders is like they had a
diversity and inclusion person that just took great enjoyment in
(07:19):
pointing out the one thing that you got wrong. And
so one of the leaders had put out of communication
it was ninety nine percent right, one percent wrong, and
they got pulled over the coals for it being wrong
is wrong, Like it wasn't a fully inclusive communication. You
got it wrong. So that leader's just stopped communicating, They've
not changed how they communicate. They're like, there's no point
I feel do it that well and still get pulled
(07:41):
over the coals. I just won't do it again. And
they're in a leadership position, So just think about it.
If this is a leader who should be storytelling, to
tell a story to build awareness and context in psychological safety,
and they decide not to because they think the consequences
is too high, you've just lost psychological safety. So no
one's going to speak up anymore. Like it. It's a
self fulfilling prophecy. So I like in it. And I
(08:03):
know you've got kids as well. When me and Becker
first had their kids and then we had a conversation
which was, let's start every situation with forgiveness. We're tired,
this is our first time of being parents. We're going
to get it wrong. Don't shout at me for getting
it wrong. Try and understand what happened and how it
went wrong. Right, So starting with forgiveness that feels normal
in a relationship, but in the work context, I'm going
(08:24):
to start by pointing out the thing that you're missing,
not the things that you've gotten. That just seems like
a dangerous precedent to me.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
I would love to get into how you approach difficult conversations,
and I might share some of the things that I do,
but I don't think that I am doing it particularly well.
It's definitely an area where I need work, so I'm
keen to learn from you, Dom. I would love to
know to start with, what are the main types of
difficult conversations that you're finding you're having and maybe others
(08:54):
at lassie and needing to have.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
In the workplace, it's almost always a dore of feedback, right,
And it could be feedback in the in the here's
something you did or didn't do. It could be feedback
in that every now and then, yeah, I work I
saw with this as well. We don't all have one
hundred percent of self awareness. So every now and then
it's one telling you something that you've not acknowledged or
seen yet and you're like, oh, like, I don't know
(09:17):
how that's going to go down. So it's normally pointing
something out that is somewhat controversial or fueled in some way. Right,
it's a hot topic where you're nervous about the consequences. Right,
it feels like there might be recourse. That's why it's
fascinating because one of the first things is just reframe, right,
it's just conversation. The fact that we label it difficult
(09:39):
conversation or crucial conversation, suddenly we've upped the odds and
you're like, oh no, this is now a difficult conversation.
I must go and prepare for said in whose eyes?
Is it difficult? Like we've already labeled it a bad thing? Right,
so mindset wise, God knows chemically what's going on in
our brain. When you're like, I'm now sitting you down
for a difficult and I imagine this one that Amantha, I'm
(10:01):
now going to sit you down for a difficult conversation,
Like why is it difficult? What's difficult about it? So
I actually the reframe of like either if I don't
say this, what happens as you said before, or otherwise
that I think about it as a gift. If it's
someone's not seeing something and I'm helping them build more
awareness and I'm doing it with good intent, I'm not
doing it for wan upmanship or for maliciousness, then that's
(10:22):
a gift. It genuinely should be a gift. And if
I reframe it like that, my words are very different.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
What else are you doing to prepare for that conversation?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Lots of questions if you know me well enough to
not I suffer with an abundance of confidence, which can
be quite destructive. And so I'm always like, oh, if
I've seen something and I've used the halo effectacy again
and again and again, what biases am I applying to
this That might may or may not be true, but
they're certainly influencing the way I'm seeing it. I always
(10:52):
think that for any stimulus you put in the middle
of a room, if hundred of us stood around in
a circle, we're all looking at the same thing, but
we've got a different view. And so I have to
check my biases every now and then. And then. Normally
the hardest question to answer, but one that's full of wonderment,
is what might be going on for that person right now.
It's not that you can ever answer that, but it's
(11:13):
just one of going You probably know a fraction of
a percentage of what's happening with them, so be careful.
I don't make assumptions about what's going on with them,
and therefore charging with answers maybe charging there subtly, but
with questions like what is going on right now? How
are you going? So the question I asked this person,
I was like, how did you think that the workshop went?
(11:34):
And they were like amazing? And I was like, oh good, good.
In that case, would you like my view because it's
a participant. But my question to then was what are
you seeing that made you think it was amazing? Because
I'm genuinely curious about that. You They weren't lying, They
genuinely thought it was. So I'm like, you explain your
world and it'll make me more aware of what you
(11:54):
what signals you took in. Too many of us enter
the conversation to go so I'm going to persuade you
why I'm right and you're wrong. And that's not a
difficult conversation. That's a one way conversation. Versus, tell me
more about your situation, your world, what's going on? How
did you find that that that's bringing them into the conversation.
It's a completely different model.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
It's interesting because I can see how that can apply
to giving someone feedback, But I wonder when it is
an objectively hard conversation, like let's just say it's pay
review time someone hasn't hit their targets and you're there
to tell them you're not getting a pay rise for
another twelve months. Like that is not a fun conversation.
There is no way of spinning that to go. But
(12:36):
what's your perspective? Do you maybe think this is the roundestad?
How is it different in those instances where I think
we can agree this is objectively not a good conversation
to be having for anyone.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Maybe I'm just like an absolute narcissist, but I've had
those conversations in my career and I don't mind them
because the normal normally based off a fact like this
was your target. You did not hit that target. So
I think facts are friends. Right when you've got a fact,
you're like, ah, this isn't my opinion anymore. It's not
I don't think you made your target. You didn't make
your target, but you're like, cool, okay, so that didn't
(13:08):
happen and the consequences of that are and then normally
it's a reset to go how do you feel about that?
Because I always want to check in with the person
as that make you feel if they're like I expected
it and you hadn't. In my target, but you're like okay,
or they're like I didn't meet it and I still
think I should have had one hundred percent pay round.
You're like, okay, that's a different problem to solve, but
I need to know your perspective is a very important
data point. But then that's a flip of a conversation
(13:31):
to go do you want an invite? Do you want
to have a career conversation about what thriving looks like
here and how we can work together to do that,
or don't you That's a genuine option, And because sometimes
people are like, nah, I've reached my pinnacle or I'm
done here. I don't like it and I want to
move on. You're like, oh, there's no point met sugar
coating into the bad news. You're done here and let's
have a chat about how we help you gracefully exit
(13:53):
and what's next. Or they're like, no, I'm in here's
the circumstances that meant I didn't nail it last year.
How can we have a conversation about what that looks
like if I'm thriving. I think what makes that conversation harder,
manth is how long we leave it for it's the
time difference between missing the target and having the chat.
(14:15):
Because you missed the target, having that chat is in context, Hey,
who's your target? We set that's fair, Like, let's have
a meaningful conversation about why did you miss? What the ups,
what were the downs, what the circumstances. That's a great
time to have that conversation. Three months later, when you
book a meeting with the person, that's an ambush. It's like, oh,
this is a fate to complete. You missed, You don't
(14:36):
like it's over, and so I don't think that's a
particularly engaging conversation. That's what I used to work with
and said, bad news doesn't get better with time, and
it doesn't, but we just leave it too long with
the hope that something magical will make it better. It doesn't,
so it then feels like an ambush and it's too late.
I can't cause correct, I can't do anything different.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
We will be back with Don soon, and when we return,
we'll be discussing the unique way he prepares for difficult
conversations and his's advice on what you can do to
safely have a difficult conversation with someone in a higher
position than you. If you're looking for more tips to
(15:14):
improve the way you work can live. I write a
short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have
helped me personally. You can sign up for that at
Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. You mentioned that
you ask like or you think about in preparation for
(15:35):
the conversation, asking questions like do you write these down?
Because I know you're a natural question asker. I can
very well see you just going in and improvising brilliantly
in these conversations.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
But do you.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Actually prepare, like, sit down and write the things that
are on your mind, the things that you're curious about,
even do a role play? Does any of this happen
in your world?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
No? Not in a glamorous way. What what I do
do is I write down themes for my style of
learning and work. Questions can be my enemy because if
I have questions written down, I will ask them even
if the answer to the previous question made the next
question null and vote right, because I'm like, well it's
here that's getting you like, that's weird. It's like I'm
(16:20):
working with a machine now, versus saying thematically, what do
I want to cover. So like thematically, what I want
to cover right now with you is what's happening at
how or life in general. I want to cover the
specificit of you're working your task, and I want to
cover the fact that you missed three months off because
you had to sick leave. Right, They're the things I
want to cover. And under the banner of those, I
want to ask the most open question possible, not leading questions,
(16:44):
but open questions. I want to give you an honest
chance to share and portray your view the world. Again,
you're not right, I'm not right, You're not wrong, I'm
not wrong. We can have a difference of opinion. But
with those questions, I'm like, these are the three themes, right,
the three data points. Let's talk about them. Which one
do you want to start with? Is not like my
first question because I want them to pick. I don't
want to say I want to start with your sales technique, right,
(17:07):
because I think that's the most important. I want then say,
you know what, The thing I really want to start
with is the home situation. Here's my environment right now
in my life and what's going on. You're like, ah, okay,
that gives me a rich context as to why other
things are happening. But letting them build their own adventure
there gives me a whole lot of answers that they're
not giving me that if I ask a specific question,
(17:27):
I might get a specific answer, but I don't know
the answer I would have got if I'd ask the
broader question. And so when I treat these as a
genuine two way conversation, and for that, I have to
give myself the permission of time, which we don't give ourselves.
Were like, I've got ten minutes to have a crucial
conversation your crap right, versus going I've got an hour
for this. And it's not that I've got a single
(17:48):
objective in mind to make you think that you're bad.
I just want to cover the data points and have
a rich tapestry for conversation and agree some kind of
next steps. And so when I give myself time to
do that and open questions and those things, that feels
like a nice structure for me versus these are the
specific questions I want to ask, because I find I
get specific answers which often satisfy what I wanted to hear.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
It's funny, don't we prepare in such different ways, Like
I feel like I'm pretty good at improvising. I even
studied it for many years of my life. But when
I know that I have a difficult conversation, and I
like your point about, well, if you're framing it in
your mind that it's going to be a difficult conversation,
then that's not helping anyone. But sometimes the reality is
(18:32):
I know that I'm here to deliver some news that
is going to be hard to take, and that is
objectively going to be a bit of a crappy conversation.
I think I go the other way. I do a
lot of preparation and I sort of I write down
different possibilities. I think about what can I control, And
something I always want to be in a difficult conversation
(18:54):
is I want to be clear, because I feel like
clarity is very helpful.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yeah, vagaries don't help one in those conversations.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
No, But I feel like people err on the side
of being vague and indirect because that almost feels like
the easier option.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah, feel safer, it does, it does.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
So I will write down what are the key messages
that I feel like I need to clearly deliver in
this conversation and it's funny. I love how you are
giving the person that you're having that conversation with a
lot of autonomy to choose their own adventure. I'm learning
from that because in my mind, I'm thinking, what is
(19:32):
the best structure to get across these things that feel
difficult but I need to get across. And I think
you know, some conversations it is more about feedback and
it can go in different ways. But maybe more recently,
I've had to have a few tough conversations that it's
like I've got news to deliver. It sucks, and I
feel like I need to create a bit of a
(19:53):
guidebook for myself and then I will role play with
my partner if it's a really difficulty conversation that I'm
feeling stressed about. And I feel like I spend an
inordinate amount of time preparing for these conversations. I don't
know if it's making me any better at them. I
think it's maybe increasing my nerves because of the weight
that I'm putting on it. What feedback would you give me,
(20:16):
Tom about this process, because it's like leagues apart from yours.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I think the first headline is preparation is not bad,
But I'd hate lot to take away from this conversation
that just go with your instinct and fly by the
seat your pantag. That's going to create a hold of
really wacky, like messed up crucial conversations. So I think
a little bit of preparation goes well. I prepare with themes,
understanding and contexts. I get my facts. I've always got
my Bulley point facts written down that I want to
(20:41):
make sure I cover. But but I'm doing a very
different type of prep to you. So I think, regardless
of what kind of personality style you are, preparation's good.
Over preparation isn't good. And there isn't a moment when
you go at that minute you over prepared, like I think,
it's when you think you can control the conversation. And
that for me is this massive red flag. And I
(21:03):
fall into this trap before of thinking it's my conversation
and it's not. It's our conversation. And if I'm role
playing and they have no idea what I'm role playing for,
and they only get that sense in the first thirty seconds,
and they were telling you, I don't worry. I spent
all night rehearsing when partner, I've got this, I've got
it down to fifty five minutes. Right, Oh, right, Like
(21:24):
that's that's not a conversation anymore, that's a broadcast. So
I think preparation is good, but we need to just
be honest that these conversations are very rarely perfect, and
so how do you let them take on some level
of organic and natural course? And for that, I'm like,
I need to open my ears and close my mathith.
Occasionally some prep goes well, but I'm like, I need
(21:45):
to be open to the idea that this conversation might
be derailed and that could be a good thing.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I'm hearing that. I feel like maybe I maybe I've
gone too far in over preparing. I sometimes think this
in my partner comments, he said, oh my gosh, the
amount of time you spend preparing for conversations that are
going to be challenging. I've never seen anyone spend that
much time preparing for.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
What drives you to do that? I get what you're doing.
What's the driving for?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Yeah, it's a good question. I think that you know
for reasons that I'm sure emerged in just like my
upbringing and my experience as a child. I think I
have a fear of the person that I'm speaking to
about the difficult thing getting really angry with me, and
that like when I figured that out, actually figured that
(22:30):
out in therapy because I was talking to my therapist
about a really difficult conversation I was preparing for and
he said, what do you think is going to happen?
And I said, I think they're going to scream at
me or that's what That's my deepest fear. And that
really happens in most workplaces. Well, I guess not. You know,
there is anly workwises that would happen.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
It's also like it's still in mine.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Yeah, I think I have a fear of being maybe
misconstrued or misinterpreted, and I think that feeds into that
cancer culture where I've experienced that in the past, where
I've just I've got one small thing wrong and it's
just had really big consequences.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, the nineteen percent right and the one cent exactly,
It can be paralyzed. Yeah, because when when you've put
so much of your and you're a heart and soul
kind of person, right, You've you've run your own business,
you've scaled up a business. You care about your people
when you're doing that. It's not all about profit. There's
a lot of care involved, right, and when you do that,
and so one goes, here's the one thing you got wrong.
I just want to flip the table and take those
(23:29):
people down because you're like, why can't you account for
the bits that went well. I'm happy to have the
chat about the one percent that went wrong, but can
we have the context of when it went wrong and
how and all the things that went well, because otherwise
it seems a little bit overly negative.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
I mean, imagine if people started doing that dom I
feel like that would be quite transformative. Something else I'm
curious about, something I am aware of in myself is
that just in those few minutes before I entered the
zoom call or the team's call or whatever channel i'ming
this difficult conversation through, is that I feel my nerves
(24:04):
and I've started using different breathing techniques just to calm
myself down, just in those three to four minutes before
I connect with that person. Do you experience nerves before
these conversations?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I can't imagine you experiencing nerves.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I can't explain it. I do this other scenarios where
I feel nerves or nervous excitement, like when people explain
the negative nerves that the anxiety, the heart poplitation. I
don't think I've ever had that, or not in my
recent memory, ever had that. And the weird thing for
me is I'm actually the opposite of that. If I
can give them one insight that makes them more rounded
(24:42):
as a leader, that's the gift of the session. If
they hate me at the end of that, so be it.
I can't control their mood and feelings towards but I can't,
so I'm going to like I can influence it, can't
control it, but I can control whether I'm honest with
them or not. So if I'm honest with them and
I give them the gift of a bit of feedback
or an insight or a lesson or something that says, hey,
I think if you can find a way of building
(25:02):
this into your living style, I think you become a
more rounded leader. And here's why. Here's the example, here's
the scenario. Then I've done much job right. So it's
like a weird flip moment. But the nerves, I don't
know why. Maybe it's a weird child to think. I
just don't get nerves in those scenarios.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
What you're saying around the reframing what you're about to
say as a gift. I like that, But what if
it's genuinely not? Like, what if it is just an
objectively crappy conversation like I'm sorry, we have to let
you go, or your performance is not up to scritch,
you are fired. Are you still finding a way to
(25:39):
see that as a gift because you're freeing them up
for the thing that they're meant to be doing. Like,
how are you viewing that?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
The gifts in things? Sounds geeky right when you apply
to overy scenario. It sounds a bit tripe, right, But
I'm like, where do we use the word positive in
any negative situation? Are there some positives we can take
for it? Yeah? There are. Now whether you look at
those positives or not completely up to you. If you
don't just live in the negative, I think you're going
(26:05):
to spiral down. So that's your choice. But my choice
would be to lay in a little bit and not
a false positivity, but like honest positivity, which is, hey,
it didn't work out here, here's why my suggestions you
would be the next time you're looking for a job
in a different environment, look for these kind of facets.
I think you might do a little bit better in
this kind of environment rather than this one that didn't
really suit you. Right, they're not going to like that,
(26:27):
but I think that gives them something directionally to say,
you still need work, if you still need to keep
a roof over your head and feed your family and
whatever else. So when you go out for work and
I give you a suggestion about where you might find that,
right or next time, your attitude in these scenarios meant
that you were hard to work with, so no one
worked with you. Maybe having a think about why you're
turning up like that? Is there some where you can
(26:47):
get help from? Right? Is it some kind of counseling
service or mentor or character or, like you said, therapy
where you can go and understand why you are the
way you are. So with the harshest feedback of hat
even though it hurt, and even when from someone that
I didn't like, still had a grain of truth in it.
Now I could easily use the power of rastalization to go,
I don't like that person, so I'm going to choose
(27:07):
to ignore it and you go, or I can partner
the fact that I don't like them and go. They
still felt that way enough to say it out loud,
So maybe there's a grain of salt in it, and
maybe I should be a little bit reflective about why
it happened in that way.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
How about during the conversation. And I know you're not
the biggest fan of frameworks, but you know sometimes they're
useful when it comes to delivering feedback.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, in a tough conversation, having some structure, like even
if it's like I want to spend twenty minutes here,
ten here and ten, anything like.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
That just helps tell me what structure or framework or
kind of guidelines do you use when you're thinking about
how to deliver feedback to someone in a way that
they're really going to hear it.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
The first most important thing for me is context, like
either me providing them context about why we're having the
conversation and all them providing me with context about where
they're at. And then as early as possible, here's a
set of facts. So the truth is, we had a
workshop together, and the objective of that workshop was to
get all of our stakeholders aligned on our mission? How
(28:09):
did you feel that when? And I say, okay, what
does the feedback sey? Because you feel like it went well,
But let's present the other fact. What did the feedback
say from the stakeholders? Oh, sixty percent of debt and
forty percent weren't that bothered? Okay? The data is telling
us that we didn't quite get there. If we had
our time again, what could we've done differently to get
more stakeholders on board of that workshop? Which stakeholders do
(28:31):
you think we missed? And then normally it's me giving
them some feedback around if to get that higher? Here's
three suggestions, right, here's something that we could do better
to drive that. What help do you need the next
time you were in a workshop? Because this is going
to happen again. That's always the part of the conversation
that I think gets missed. So I think we call
it a difficult conversation. Can we think about the bit
in the middle that here's why I have to tell
(28:52):
you the workshop didn't go well. We forget about why
do you think the workshop didn't go well? And we
forget about that? How can I help you do a
workshop it next time? We forget about those bits and go,
I'm plaed to give you some really bad news. And
so I think just just that that as a rough
structure for me, is a conversation, and it doesn't flow
in a linear fashion, right, I jump around, But they're
(29:13):
the elements that I'm trying to bring in. For for
any observation I share, there's got to be a so
what next time this happens? What are we going to
do differently? And if the answer is nothing, you've clearly
not heard the feedback.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
So there's the shared context, there's the facts, there's the
feedback that emerges from the facts.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
It has normally got like an asterisk of behavior m
as well. That's what I'm trying to bring in behavior. Right,
So in that workshop example, it's like when you didn't
engage with this specific stakeholder, That's why I think they
didn't score the workshop positively, right, They didn't feel like
they were engaged properly. So that the behavior was you
spoke to these three people that you know, well, you
(29:51):
forgot about the fourth person that you didn't know as well.
Did you realize you did that? In the workshop? You
spent more time with AB and C and not enough
time with D.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
So then you're giving them advice and working at if
they essentially need help implementing that advice. Is there a
point where you're asking them to come up with their
own solutions? Does that happen between the feedback giving and
the advice giving.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Typically, it's normally the question of oh, the statement this
is going to happen again, So how did we achieve a
dif an outcome? Or if you had your time again,
how would you do it differently? Again? Going back through
that scenario can be quite helpful because it's not abstract,
it's real. It happened right as you could go, Oh,
if I had my time again after lunch, I think
I would have done another ice breaker and got I
(30:36):
would have sent those people were engaged. Or I could
have done a reflective exercise just before lunch. We could
have done thumbs right, how's the one feeling? And if
I would have picked the people that were thumb sideway
is not awesome? Not awful? I would have grabbed them
at lunch time and checked in why and course corrected right,
See like, oh, can we do that next time? Because
they all sound very dual? Yes we can. Cool, let's
do those next time? Right, So now we set a
(30:58):
new expectation of how we're going to perform, rather than
you didn't perform, So we use the inspiration, right, the
trigger of it didn't go well, that's the trigger. The
purpose of the conversation, though, isn't that The purpose of
the conversation is how do we make it better next time?
That's the only point of having the conversation. If all
(31:19):
I do is tell you about it something I've just
buried you. I've not made you a better person, I've
made you a worse person.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
What do you do after the conversation, Because that sounds
like a really productive conversation that you're having. What is
your role as the feedback giver in making sure that
behavior does change for the better and that you're not
sitting with that person a month later with the exact
same feedback.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, there was one a while ago, probably out a
year ago. I set the person just so you know,
that wasn't an enjoyable conversation for me. I don't want
to be having this conversation again in six months time.
So what do I need to do or what do
we need to do? Like this? There's accountability on both
us here because I don't want to be doing this
dance again. It's not it's not a great use of
my sumon, and I think it's a great use of your.
Neithers are in a great mood after it. It was important,
(32:03):
but it wasn't a high five or round bouncy conversation.
And then what we came out with there was we
agreed milestones, so it wasn't just actually, it's like, Hey,
here's the things I'm going to go away and try
in the next four weeks. Let's check it in four
weeks time. I was like, ooh, what progress do you
think you will have made in four weeks that I
can hold you account before you helped set my expectation
of what I should see, because you're not going to
(32:24):
have miraculously changed, but like, what does progress look like
at that milestone? And then at the two months and
the three like and we agreed that that was a
healthy conversation that they also included some feedback for me
in there that they didn't feel I'd been particularly clear
in my expectation. I was like, good feedback. And then
we talked about the anti pattern, so I was like, hey,
the anti patter here is next time you're in a workshop,
(32:47):
I dive in and run it. That's the anti pat
No one's won there. I've used my time on something
that I shouldn't be doing. You've lost control of the situation.
So you feel kind of disengaged, right, kind of not
very empowered, and we should agree that that's the anti pattern.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Anti pattern. I've never heard that term before. Anti pattern.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Yeah, we use it all the time to go how
do we call out the inadvertent bad behavior or the
negative thing? Right, So it's just a healthy way of going.
Every way of working has a set of consequences that
we can't always see. So you're like, oh, let's see them,
let's call them out. What might go wrong here and
therefore let's call that out now. It reduces the chance
to be happening.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I want to circle back to something that we touched
on right at the beginning, which is around psych safety.
How then have you coached, say, other people you know
within your workplace or people that you help where they
maybe need to have a difficult conversation with someone that
is higher up in the hierarchy. But they're saying, dom,
(33:46):
I just don't feel psychologically safe. What advice do you
give them.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
It's normally a question of what's your intended outcome here?
What's the real goal? Then it's taught me through this situation,
give me the examples what happened like, and that's me
sense checking their examples to their goal, right, which are
almost always out of kill teth like, my goal is
it's a gift. Don't want to help them be a
better leader. And you're like and then I'm like cool,
(34:10):
like told me to the example of life and they
said this, and they said that, and you're like, that's
basically you've become a gossip and you're trying to diminish
the person. So is there's clearly a power issue dynamic
or a political dynamic here that that you're not talking
to me about that that's there, right, and that's part
of the coaching to go, hey, if you went into
that conversation that way, everyone's a loser. Right. So there's
(34:30):
the lose loose scenario. They feel like, crap, they've lost
all faith in you. You're not going to give me
on a project again, they don't want to work with you.
That's you pay rise Like, that's a lose lose. What
does the win win? Look like right, and what might
be the scenarios where you help them and they help you,
and where your relationship has improved from that conversation not deteriorated.
And that's hard because when you look at those conversations
(34:52):
play out, the majority of them are a deterioration of
relationship versus going if my intent here is to build
bamb and fix the relationship, how might I turn up
to help do that? Right? And it's it's kind of
the old school Olive branch. I often in those situations
like I'm going to go first, right, So I'm going
(35:12):
to walk up to that person, go hey, I know
there's been a few scenarios where we work together and
I've pissed you off. I want to level that, like,
here's what happened, here's why, here's a situation. I'm not
right for doing it, but it happened, and I go that. However,
one of the things I've really loved to talk to you about,
if that's okay, is a few of the things I've
found how you've interacted that haven't got the best out
of me. Is that a conversation you'd be will't haveing it?
(35:33):
And if so, when right? But I've gone first with
my olive branch, so I've presented some safety, whereas I
think sometimes we turn up in those conversations like we're perfect,
like I'm amazing, I'm here to let you know your frailties.
That's not cool, that's that's not going to work. Like
I'm great and you're mediocre, and it's just a matter
of time until I tell you that that's not a
relationship building conversation, it's a relationship destroying conversations. So I
(35:57):
think we're going to be really careful with language and intent.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I love that, Dom, Dom. I wish i'd had this
conversation many years ago. I feel like there have been
many instances where I would have loved to have channel
your advice. So thank you so much for sharing so generously.
I know I'm definitely taking away a lot of practical tips.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
I can't wait for your feedback.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I hope you'll love this chat with Dom as much
as I did. I know that I'll be trying out
a few of these techniques and ideas when preparing for
my next difficult conversation. And if you're keen to find
out more about Dom, you can find a link to
his website and social media channels in the show notes.
If you like today's show, make sure you hit follow
(36:41):
on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.
How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of
the Warrangery people, part of the cool And Nation.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.