BEST OF
Warning: This episode contains radical ideas that may change the way you lead forever! In this episode of How I Work, leadership guru and author of global bestseller Radical Candour Kim Scott shares her unconventional approach to leadership and feedback.
Join us as we explore the ins and outs of radical candour, the framework that’s transformed the way leaders communicate with their teams. Kim dives deep into her personal journey, revealing the hard-learned lessons and “a-ha!” moments that led her to develop this game-changing approach. In this episode, you’ll discover:
- The truth about why most managers fail to give effective feedback
- The power of caring personally and challenging directly in leadership
- How to avoid the pitfalls of ruinous empathy and obnoxious aggression
- Practical strategies for soliciting criticism and handling feedback like a pro
- The secret to mastering the art of praise and criticism
- Techniques for creating a culture of open communication and respectful debate
- Surprising ways radical candour can boost team productivity and foster growth
Whether you’re a seasoned executive or a first-time manager, this episode is packed with actionable insights and game-changing ideas that will help you take your leadership skills to the next level. Tune in now and discover how embracing radical candour can revolutionise the way you lead and work. 🎧Grab your copy of Kim’s new book Radical Respect. Follow Kim on Linkedin.
My latest book The Health Habit is out now. You can order a copy here: https://www.amantha.com/the-health-habit/
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If you are looking for more tips to improve the way you work and live, I write a weekly newsletter where I share practical and simple to apply tips to improve your life. You can sign up for that at https://amantha-imber.ck.page/subscribe
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Get in touch at amantha@inventium.com.au
Credits:
Host: Amantha Imber
Sound Engineer: Martin Imber
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I am on a little break for a few weeks,
so I'm re releasing some of my favorite episodes from
the last twelve months. I will be back with brand
new interviews from July thirty one, and until then, enjoy
today's chat. What if the secret to becoming an exceptional
leader lies in embracing Radical Canada. I first came across
(00:23):
Kim Scott's international best selling book Radical Canda several years ago,
and I know many leaders who swear by her approach
for giving and receiving feedback. So I reached out to
Kim to come on how I work and teach me
all about the ins and outs of how to be
better at feedback. Kim has led teams in companies like
(00:47):
Google and YouTube, as well as being a CEO coach
at Dropbox and Twitter, not to mention being on faculty
at Apple University. If you have ever struggled with giving
or receiving feedback, then I guarantee this episode will help
you master the art of radical candor and transform the
way you communicate. My name is doctor Amantha Imbert. I'm
(01:15):
an organizational psychologist and founder of Behavior change consultancy Inventium,
and this is how I work a show about how
to help you get so much more out of the
hours in your day. Now, unless you have been living
under a management rock, you have probably heard of the
term radical candor. It's the style of feedback giving that
(01:37):
revolutionized how people in tech companies give each other feedback.
But in case you haven't heard of radical candor, let's
start with a quick recap with Kim Scott, the woman
behind the framework.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Radical candor is what happens when you care personally and
challenged directly at the same time, also known as compassionate candor. So,
if you think about radical candor in terms of a
two by two framework.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
You ready, I'm going to lay it on you.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Let's go okay. So, on the vertical axis is care personally.
On the horizontal axis is challenged directly, and when you
do both at the same time, that is radical candor.
But when you challenge directly but you forget to show
that you care personally, as we all are bound to
do from time to time, that is obnoxious aggression. Sometimes
(02:28):
people confuse radical candor and obnoxious aggression, but they're two
very different things.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Obnoxious aggression is bad.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
It's bad because it hurts people It's bad because it's inefficient.
If I'm a jerk to you, then you sort of
go into fight or flight mode, and then you literally
cannot hear what I'm saying, so I'm wasting my breath.
But it's also bad for another reason. For me, at least,
when I realize I've been a jerk, it's not my
instinct to go the right way on care personally. Instead,
(02:59):
I go the wrong way, unchallenged directly, and then I
wind out in the worst place of all manipulative insincerity.
So noxious aggression is front stabbing. Manipulative insincerity is backstabbing.
It's where passive aggressive behavior, political behavior, all of the
stuff that erodes trust most quickly creeps in. However, although
(03:20):
it is fun to tell stories about obnoxious aggression and
ruin of sympathy, these are not the mistakes most of
us make most of the time. Most of us make
most of our mistakes in this last upper left hand quadrant,
where we do remember to show that we care personally,
but we're so worried about not hurting someone's feelings or
(03:40):
offending them that we failed to tell them something they'd
be better off knowing in the long run, and that
is what I call ruin a sympathy. So that's what
radical canner is and what it is not.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I definitely struggle in that up left quadrant. I could
definitely relate to that, I w because what do people
find hottest about a flying radical canda in their role
as a leader?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
You know, I think it's a little bit like diet
and exercise. Actually, we kind of everybody knows we should
be you know, we should be eating well, we should
be getting enough exercise or sleep. I think we all
know we how to do it, but it's hard. Behavior
change is really hard, and so I think a big
part of it is just building the habit of radical candor.
(04:25):
And you'll know that you've succeeded when it's a little
bit like brushing your teeth. You know, you feel gross
if you don't do it. I think it shouldn't be
like a root canal, should be more like brushing your teeth.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
How did you manage to make it habitual in your
own work life?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
I learned through the school of hard knocks. I got
it wrong over and over and over again. And I
think one of the things that helped me more than
anything else was telling stories. First to myself and labeling
them and then writing them in the book, and then
telling them when I do talks and workshop talk on
podcasts about when I get it wrong. So I have
(05:03):
this ruinous empathy story that I call my Bob's story,
and for me, it just summarizes all of what's wrong
with ruinous empathy. And then when I'm tempted not to
say the thing that I know I need to say,
I think about that Bob story, and it reminds me
that it's actually kinder to say it in the long run,
(05:24):
because I think that's also it feels mean to say
the thing, but it's actually much kinder in the long run.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I love the idea of having stories to remind yourself
of why to push yourself into that radical Canda quadrant.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
You want to hear the Bob story. I would love to.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
This.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
This is really what helped me more than anything else,
because I also struggle with ruinous empathy, and if I'm
honest with myself, there's always a dose of manipulative and
sincerity in my ruinous empathy. So at one point in
my career, and this is really one of the more
painful moments in my career, I had hired this guy
and we'll call him Bob. And I liked Bob a lot.
(06:06):
He was smart, he was charming, he was funny.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
He would do.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Stuff like, we're at a manager off site playing one
of those endless get to know you games, and everybody's
getting more and more stressed out because there's tons of
work and people kind of are ready to get back
to work. And Bob is a guy who has the
courage to raise his hand and to say, you know,
I can tell everybody's getting stressed out, and I've got
an idea. It'll help us get to know each other
(06:30):
and it'll be really fast. Whatever his idea was, If
it was really fast, we were all down with it.
So Bob says, let's just go around the table and
confess what candy our parents used when potty training us.
Really weird, but really fast, weirder yet we all remembered.
And then for the next ten months, every time there
(06:52):
was a tense moment and a meeting, Bob would pull
out just the right piece of candy for the right
person at the right moment.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
So Bob was quirky but very lovable.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
He brought a little levity to the office. Everybody loved
working with Bob. It was just one problem with Bob.
He was doing terrible work. I couldn't understand what was
going on because he had this incredible resume, this great
history of accomplishments. I learned much later the problem was
that Bob was smoking pot in the bathroom three times
a day, which maybe explained all that candy that he had,
(07:23):
but I didn't know any of that. All I knew
was that Bob was handing mark into me, and there
was shame in his eyes. He knew it wasn't nearly
good enough. And I would say something to him along
the lines of, oh, Bob, you're so smart, you're so awesome.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
We all love working with you. Maybe you could make
it just a little bit better, which of course he
never did.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
So let's pause for a moment. Why did I say
something so banal to Bob? I think part of the
problem was that Bob was sensitive and popular, and I
really didn't want to hurt his feelings. But also, if
I'm honest with myself, little manipulative insincerity going on because
(08:04):
he was so popular and so sensitive that there was
part of me that was afraid that if I told
him and no uncertain terms that his work wasn't nearly
good enough, that he would get upset, he might even
start to cry, and then everyone would think I was
a big you know what. And so the part of
me that was worried about my reputation as a leader,
that was the kind of manipulative insincerity part. The part
(08:25):
of me that was worried about Bob's feelings that was
the ruinous sympathy part. This went on for ten months,
and eventually the inevitable happened, and I realized that if
I didn't fire Bob, I was going to lose all
the best performers on my team. And because not only
had I been unfair to Bob by not telling him
(08:46):
that his work wasn't nearly good enough, I'd been unfair
to the whole team. And everybody was frustrated. Their deliverables
were late because his deliverables were late. They were not
able to do their best work because they are having
to spend so much time redoing his work. And the
best performers on the team were going to quit. They
were going to go work someplace somewhere else where they
could do their best work. I realized that I had
(09:09):
failed to do.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
My job, it was time to do it.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
And when I finished explaining to him where things stood,
he kind of pushed the chair back from the table.
He looked me right in the eye and he said,
why didn't you tell me?
Speaker 3 (09:21):
And as that.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Question was going around in my head with no good answer,
he looked at me again and he said, why didn't
anyone tell me? I thought you all cared about me?
And that was like, it hit me so hard. I
hadn't told him because I thought I was trying to
be nice, and now because I hadn't told him, I'm
firing him.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Not so nice after all.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
And that is the moment in my career that really
prompted me to think very deeply about why so many
people this is the most common mistake that managers make,
I mean, frankly, that we make in all our relationships.
And it's what really prompted me to write the book
Radical Candor and come up with a two y two
framework and to do better next time, because all I
(10:04):
could do in the moment was make myself a very
solemn promise that I would never make that mistake again.
Because even Bob at this point agreed he should go
his reputation on the team was just shut.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
It really speaks to what you say around managers need
to be good at willing to tick people off. And
that really resonated with me because as a lead in myself,
I really struggle with that.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, me too. Yeah, what if you found for.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yourself and leaders that you've worked with, how do we
get better at that?
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Remembering you're not trying to tick people off, but you
have to be willing to take a risk. Your job
as a manager is to help people grow and improve
and even though it might you know, in the case
of Bob, it might have hurt his feelings in the
short run, but in the long run it was better
(10:57):
for him. What I really wanted to do is be
kind to Bob. I've got to tell him the thing,
even if it sings a little.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Bit in the moment, and that is hard.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I mean, one of the things about being a manager
is that it can feel sometimes like a lonely one
way street. You're giving and you're not allowed to expect
to get. That's why you get paid the big box
as a manager, and think about it as paying it forward.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Someone did that hopefully. I mean.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
You may have had some bad managers in your past,
but hopefully everyone's had some good managers too, and you're
sort of paying it forward being.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Good at willing to take people off and having that
as a skill. I've also heard you talk about you're
not a fan of managers being friends with their direct reports.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Not that I would say, don't be friends with them.
But the thing that's really important to remember is that
it is a very human relationship. It may not be
a friendship, it better not be a romance. And unless
it's a family business, it shouldn't be a family You
certainly don't want to play favorites, and that's one of
the risks. In many ways, a manager letting people know
(12:07):
when they're making a mistake as the labor of love.
But it shouldn't start with giving criticism. It should always
start with soliciting it and then giving praise, and then
giving criticism and then engaging how it's landing.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Let's get into criticism and praise. What questions should I
be asking to elicit criticism from my team?
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
So if you say, do you have any feedback for me,
you're wasting your breath.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
I can already tell you the answer.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Oh no, everything's fine, Like nobody wants to give you feedback,
except your teenage children. One of the things that I
recommend is that people come up with their go to
question and I'll tell you what mine is, which I
didn't to be fair, I didn't make up myself. I
had a coach tell me this, so you can borrow
(12:54):
it if it works for you. Is what could I
do or stop doing that would make it easier to
work with me? And if you buy the book and
read it, you'll notice it's worded a little bit differently
in the book. And I got some feedback that the
way I worded it in the book was imperfect. So
the way it's worded in the book is is there anything?
(13:15):
And someone pointed out, you don't want to ask a
question that can be answered with a yes or no.
So what could I do or stop doing that would
make it easier to work with me. I was working
with Krista Quarrels when she was CEO of Open Table
and she said, Kim, I could never imagine your words
coming out of my mouth.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
And she said, the question I like to ask is
tell me why I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Okay, that's a fine way to ask too, it's got
to sound like you. But The other thing about your
question is you want to make sure that you adjust
it for the person you're asking it up. There are
a couple of people on Christmas team who found that
question too aggressive, and so for them she had to
sort of back off and ask it more gently.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
What are some other variations on that question that you
asked to elicit face back from others that are stuck
with you?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Jason Rosoff, who is the person who I co founded
Radical can or the company with he likes to ask
where this week did I get involved where you didn't
want me involved? And where did I not get involved
where you did want me involved? And the interesting thing
there is that some people really like their managers to
(14:25):
mostly leave them alone, and other people really want them
more involved. And so as a manager, you want to
try to be a thought partner, not a micromanager or
an absentee manager. But different people are going to define
those things differently, So it's useful to find out what
people want from you.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
How do you know when you're asking too often for criticism?
Is there a line somewhere?
Speaker 2 (14:51):
As a general rule, I want to ask at the
end of every one on one, like once a.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Week, so I want to ask about that, because it's
one thing to ask for feedback, and it's another too
you receive it in a way that positively reinforces the feedback,
giving you more feedback.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
So how have you, kim become.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Better at receiving criticism And I'm interested, particularly in criticism
that you feel is unwarranted.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yeah, you want.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
To make sure that you're listening with the intent to understand,
not to respond. The first step is to manage your
own defensiveness. The next thing that's really important is to
reward the candor when you get it. When someone gives
you some feedback, they are taking a risk, and if
you don't reward risk richly, you'll never.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Take that risk again. It's tricky because it's easy to
feel like a disagreement poses a risk to your relationship.
But some of the best relationships of my career have
started with a good, respectful disagreement.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I want to ask about a situation I was in
a few months ago where I had been given some
feedback via one of my team that was about someone
that had left the organization. And when I heard the feedback,
I knew intellectually I need to receive the feedback and
not get defensive, but when I heard the feedback, I
(16:11):
actually knew that there was another side of the story,
and at the time, I thought, how do I respond
to this? And I made the decision to just be
quiet and listen and thank the person for the feedback.
But then I walked away from that conversation and I
felt so frustrated, And a few weeks later, I said, hey,
when you gave me this feedback, it was really hard
(16:32):
to take for this reason, and I didn't share with
them my side of the story because I wanted to
protect confidentiality. But I'd gotten really frustrated sitting with that,
and I want to know, what should I have done
better in that situation, Kim.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yeah, it seems like a really hard situation because you
couldn't share your side of the story. I think I
would double click on that a little bit and say,
are there maybe there are some details of your side
of the story that you can't but maybe there's some
that you can share. Because it never is very satisfying
to say that's not what happened, but I can't tell
you what happened, you know, So I think what I
(17:10):
would have done in that moment is to say I
really appreciate that you shared this with me, and I'm
sorry that you had the experience you had.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
It sounds like it was really frustrating.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
However, there's more to this story, and here's what I
can tell you. There's a lot more that I cannot
tell you, but I want to assure you that I
wouldn't have done what you thought I did. You know
something along those lines, because the problem with just saying
thank you for the feedback and walking away and feeling
(17:43):
frustrated is that, unless you're an Oscar winning actor, that
person knew you were frustrated.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
We will be back with Kim soon talking about what
to do if you really disagree with the feedback that
you've just been given, and also Kim's views on the
best way to give someone praise. If you're looking for
more tips to improve the way you work and live,
I write a weekly newsletter where I share practical and
(18:13):
simple to apply tips to improve your life. You can
sign up for that at Amantha dot substack dot com.
That's Amantha dot substack dot com. In those situations where
you're receiving feedback and or criticism, let's say, and you
(18:35):
find the five to ten percent that you can agree
with and embrace and learn from. But if there is
a situation where you do disagree with a large chunk,
should you raise that at the time or should you
give it some space and then come back to it
potentially when emotions have come down? What should we be
doing there?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
First of all, don't shut all over yourself. There's no
one right answer, So how some compassion for yourself. If
I am feeling like I'm really upset, then I might wait. However,
if I'm calm enough that I feel like my executive
function is more or less fully engaged, it's a little
bit easier to have the conversation on the spot.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
I would love to talk about the flip side to
giving criticism, which is giving praise and how do I
do a good job of giving praise.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
The rules of thumb for praise are the same as
those for criticism. You want to for both praise and criticism.
You want to be humble. You're not the arbiter of
what's good or bad. You're sharing your perspective. You want
to state your intention to be helpful. You want to
do it right away. The purpose of praise is to
tell people what to do. More of why would you wait.
(19:47):
You want to praise in public, criticize in private, and
you want to do it in person.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Something I'm curious about is the idea of how we
can get better as a team at debating obviously doing
that with respect. What advice do you have to get
better at creating a culture of debate in a respectful way.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
One of the most important things you can do is
to create consequences for bullying, because there's nothing that will
destroy a good debate faster than someone who decides to
bully others in the course of that debate. And the
thing about debate is that it has to happen in public.
Making sure that you're creating an environment in which people
(20:29):
are respectful, that where you're disrupting bias when it happens,
and where you create conversational consequences for bullying as well
as compensation consequences and career consequences. Ultimately, that's going to
help you create a culture of debate. You also want
to make sure that you ask people to really check
(20:50):
their egos when they come into debate. You're debating an idea,
you're debating a notion, and the goal is to come
together the best idea the best solution that you can have.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
You seen certain methods of helping people check their ego
and be focused on debating the ideas and not the person.
Just people naturally feel a little bit attached to their ideas.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
And take it personally when they criticized.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, criticism shouldn't happen in public. You shouldn't criticize a
person in a debate. Anytime you criticize someone in public,
they're going to take it personally.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
So it's not a good idea. But you can debate.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
One of the things I talked about in Radical Respect
is a Rogerian debate. And the idea of a rogarian
debate is that you and I at a certain point
and the discussion, we switch roles and I argue for
your side and you argue for my side. And that
can really help people learn to listen to each other
and learn to talk more respectfully to each other so
(21:56):
that we can put our heads together and come up
with a better answer. I mean, that's the point of
being on a team, as you get different points of
view and you put them out on the table, and
that's what helps you come up with the best answer.
Steve jobs Likens debate on a team to a rock tumbler.
You put a bunch of ordinary stones in this tin?
Can you put some grit in there? It's on the motor,
(22:17):
it spins around. There's a lot of noise, a lot
of friction, but outcome these beautifully polished stones. And that's
what we can do for each other if we're willing
to debate and discuss ideas openly.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
I do love that. How do you know at what
point to introduce that? Do you typically assign someone with
the role of facilitator to go, okay, now it's time
to switch viewpoints? How have you found that works in
practice when you've used it.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I'm usually not very good at being very formal.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
The way that I tend to use it is if
I notice the quality of the conversation degrading, I will suggest,
why don't we switch roles? I also use it when
I have a particular point of view, and if I
have some kind of authority in the situation, I want
to lay that power down, and so I find it
very useful to say, Okay, I know here's what you think.
(23:05):
Here's what I think. Why don't I argue your point
of view? When you argue mine and that can make
it easier for folks to argue with me and also
maybe to understand my point of view.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I love that I'm definitely going to be taking a
lot of these ideas back to my business INVENTI and Kim,
thank you for all the tools and strategies that you've
given me as a leader, and thank you so much
for your time today.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, thank you for yours love your podcast, and hopefully
the Radical candor Radical Respect podcast can help your listeners
as well.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
If you liked this chat with Kim Scott, you should
definitely go out and grab her latest book, Radical Respect,
and if you haven't read her classic Radical Canada, I
highly recommend it as a really simple and practical way
of improving how you give and receive feedback and ultimately
become a better leader. If you enjoyed today's episode, I
(24:00):
would love to ask a favor. Click follow on the
podcast app that you're listening to this on, and if
you're feeling really generous, leave a review for the show.
Following this podcast and leaving reviews helps how I work
find new listeners and your support is one of the
things that makes this podcast possible. Thank you for sharing
(24:22):
part of your day with me by listening to How
I Worked.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
If you're keen for.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
More tips on how to work better, connect with me
via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just
search for Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded on
the traditional land of the Warrangery people, part of the
cool And Nation. I am so grateful for being able
to work and live on this beautiful land and I
(24:48):
want to pay my respects to elder's past, present and emerging.
How I Work is produced by me Amantha Imba. The
episode producer was Rowena Murray, and then thank you to
Martin Imba who does the audio mix for every episode
and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.
I am on a little break for a few weeks,
so I'm re releasing some of my favorite episodes from
the last twelve months. I will be back with brand
new interviews from July thirty one, and until then, enjoy
today's chat. What if the secret to becoming an exceptional
leader lies in embracing Radical Canada. I first came across
(00:23):
Kim Scott's international best selling book Radical Canda several years ago,
and I know many leaders who swear by her approach
for giving and receiving feedback. So I reached out to
Kim to come on how I work and teach me
all about the ins and outs of how to be
better at feedback. Kim has led teams in companies like
(00:47):
Google and YouTube, as well as being a CEO coach
at Dropbox and Twitter, not to mention being on faculty
at Apple University. If you have ever struggled with giving
or receiving feedback, then I guarantee this episode will help
you master the art of radical candor and transform the
way you communicate. My name is doctor Amantha Imbert. I'm
(01:15):
an organizational psychologist and founder of Behavior change consultancy Inventium,
and this is how I work a show about how
to help you get so much more out of the
hours in your day. Now, unless you have been living
under a management rock, you have probably heard of the
term radical candor. It's the style of feedback giving that
(01:37):
revolutionized how people in tech companies give each other feedback.
But in case you haven't heard of radical candor, let's
start with a quick recap with Kim Scott, the woman
behind the framework.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Radical candor is what happens when you care personally and
challenged directly at the same time, also known as compassionate candor. So,
if you think about radical candor in terms of a
two by two framework.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
You ready, I'm going to lay it on you.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Let's go okay. So, on the vertical axis is care personally.
On the horizontal axis is challenged directly, and when you
do both at the same time, that is radical candor.
But when you challenge directly but you forget to show
that you care personally, as we all are bound to
do from time to time, that is obnoxious aggression. Sometimes
(02:28):
people confuse radical candor and obnoxious aggression, but they're two
very different things.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Obnoxious aggression is bad.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
It's bad because it hurts people It's bad because it's inefficient.
If I'm a jerk to you, then you sort of
go into fight or flight mode, and then you literally
cannot hear what I'm saying, so I'm wasting my breath.
But it's also bad for another reason. For me, at least,
when I realize I've been a jerk, it's not my
instinct to go the right way on care personally. Instead,
(02:59):
I go the wrong way, unchallenged directly, and then I
wind out in the worst place of all manipulative insincerity.
So noxious aggression is front stabbing. Manipulative insincerity is backstabbing.
It's where passive aggressive behavior, political behavior, all of the
stuff that erodes trust most quickly creeps in. However, although
(03:20):
it is fun to tell stories about obnoxious aggression and
ruin of sympathy, these are not the mistakes most of
us make most of the time. Most of us make
most of our mistakes in this last upper left hand quadrant,
where we do remember to show that we care personally,
but we're so worried about not hurting someone's feelings or
(03:40):
offending them that we failed to tell them something they'd
be better off knowing in the long run, and that
is what I call ruin a sympathy. So that's what
radical canner is and what it is not.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I definitely struggle in that up left quadrant. I could
definitely relate to that, I w because what do people
find hottest about a flying radical canda in their role
as a leader?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
You know, I think it's a little bit like diet
and exercise. Actually, we kind of everybody knows we should
be you know, we should be eating well, we should
be getting enough exercise or sleep. I think we all
know we how to do it, but it's hard. Behavior
change is really hard, and so I think a big
part of it is just building the habit of radical candor.
(04:25):
And you'll know that you've succeeded when it's a little
bit like brushing your teeth. You know, you feel gross
if you don't do it. I think it shouldn't be
like a root canal, should be more like brushing your teeth.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
How did you manage to make it habitual in your
own work life?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
I learned through the school of hard knocks. I got
it wrong over and over and over again. And I
think one of the things that helped me more than
anything else was telling stories. First to myself and labeling
them and then writing them in the book, and then
telling them when I do talks and workshop talk on
podcasts about when I get it wrong. So I have
(05:03):
this ruinous empathy story that I call my Bob's story,
and for me, it just summarizes all of what's wrong
with ruinous empathy. And then when I'm tempted not to
say the thing that I know I need to say,
I think about that Bob story, and it reminds me
that it's actually kinder to say it in the long run,
(05:24):
because I think that's also it feels mean to say
the thing, but it's actually much kinder in the long run.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I love the idea of having stories to remind yourself
of why to push yourself into that radical Canda quadrant.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
You want to hear the Bob story. I would love to.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
This.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
This is really what helped me more than anything else,
because I also struggle with ruinous empathy, and if I'm
honest with myself, there's always a dose of manipulative and
sincerity in my ruinous empathy. So at one point in
my career, and this is really one of the more
painful moments in my career, I had hired this guy
and we'll call him Bob. And I liked Bob a lot.
(06:06):
He was smart, he was charming, he was funny.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
He would do.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Stuff like, we're at a manager off site playing one
of those endless get to know you games, and everybody's
getting more and more stressed out because there's tons of
work and people kind of are ready to get back
to work. And Bob is a guy who has the
courage to raise his hand and to say, you know,
I can tell everybody's getting stressed out, and I've got
an idea. It'll help us get to know each other
(06:30):
and it'll be really fast. Whatever his idea was, If
it was really fast, we were all down with it.
So Bob says, let's just go around the table and
confess what candy our parents used when potty training us.
Really weird, but really fast, weirder yet we all remembered.
And then for the next ten months, every time there
(06:52):
was a tense moment and a meeting, Bob would pull
out just the right piece of candy for the right
person at the right moment.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
So Bob was quirky but very lovable.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
He brought a little levity to the office. Everybody loved
working with Bob. It was just one problem with Bob.
He was doing terrible work. I couldn't understand what was
going on because he had this incredible resume, this great
history of accomplishments. I learned much later the problem was
that Bob was smoking pot in the bathroom three times
a day, which maybe explained all that candy that he had,
(07:23):
but I didn't know any of that. All I knew
was that Bob was handing mark into me, and there
was shame in his eyes. He knew it wasn't nearly
good enough. And I would say something to him along
the lines of, oh, Bob, you're so smart, you're so awesome.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
We all love working with you. Maybe you could make
it just a little bit better, which of course he
never did.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
So let's pause for a moment. Why did I say
something so banal to Bob? I think part of the
problem was that Bob was sensitive and popular, and I
really didn't want to hurt his feelings. But also, if
I'm honest with myself, little manipulative insincerity going on because
(08:04):
he was so popular and so sensitive that there was
part of me that was afraid that if I told
him and no uncertain terms that his work wasn't nearly
good enough, that he would get upset, he might even
start to cry, and then everyone would think I was
a big you know what. And so the part of
me that was worried about my reputation as a leader,
that was the kind of manipulative insincerity part. The part
(08:25):
of me that was worried about Bob's feelings that was
the ruinous sympathy part. This went on for ten months,
and eventually the inevitable happened, and I realized that if
I didn't fire Bob, I was going to lose all
the best performers on my team. And because not only
had I been unfair to Bob by not telling him
(08:46):
that his work wasn't nearly good enough, I'd been unfair
to the whole team. And everybody was frustrated. Their deliverables
were late because his deliverables were late. They were not
able to do their best work because they are having
to spend so much time redoing his work. And the
best performers on the team were going to quit. They
were going to go work someplace somewhere else where they
could do their best work. I realized that I had
(09:09):
failed to do.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
My job, it was time to do it.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
And when I finished explaining to him where things stood,
he kind of pushed the chair back from the table.
He looked me right in the eye and he said,
why didn't you tell me?
Speaker 3 (09:21):
And as that.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Question was going around in my head with no good answer,
he looked at me again and he said, why didn't
anyone tell me? I thought you all cared about me?
And that was like, it hit me so hard. I
hadn't told him because I thought I was trying to
be nice, and now because I hadn't told him, I'm
firing him.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Not so nice after all.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
And that is the moment in my career that really
prompted me to think very deeply about why so many
people this is the most common mistake that managers make,
I mean, frankly, that we make in all our relationships.
And it's what really prompted me to write the book
Radical Candor and come up with a two y two
framework and to do better next time, because all I
(10:04):
could do in the moment was make myself a very
solemn promise that I would never make that mistake again.
Because even Bob at this point agreed he should go
his reputation on the team was just shut.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
It really speaks to what you say around managers need
to be good at willing to tick people off. And
that really resonated with me because as a lead in myself,
I really struggle with that.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, me too. Yeah, what if you found for.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yourself and leaders that you've worked with, how do we
get better at that?
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Remembering you're not trying to tick people off, but you
have to be willing to take a risk. Your job
as a manager is to help people grow and improve
and even though it might you know, in the case
of Bob, it might have hurt his feelings in the
short run, but in the long run it was better
(10:57):
for him. What I really wanted to do is be
kind to Bob. I've got to tell him the thing,
even if it sings a little.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Bit in the moment, and that is hard.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I mean, one of the things about being a manager
is that it can feel sometimes like a lonely one
way street. You're giving and you're not allowed to expect
to get. That's why you get paid the big box
as a manager, and think about it as paying it forward.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Someone did that hopefully. I mean.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
You may have had some bad managers in your past,
but hopefully everyone's had some good managers too, and you're
sort of paying it forward being.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Good at willing to take people off and having that
as a skill. I've also heard you talk about you're
not a fan of managers being friends with their direct reports.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Not that I would say, don't be friends with them.
But the thing that's really important to remember is that
it is a very human relationship. It may not be
a friendship, it better not be a romance. And unless
it's a family business, it shouldn't be a family You
certainly don't want to play favorites, and that's one of
the risks. In many ways, a manager letting people know
(12:07):
when they're making a mistake as the labor of love.
But it shouldn't start with giving criticism. It should always
start with soliciting it and then giving praise, and then
giving criticism and then engaging how it's landing.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Let's get into criticism and praise. What questions should I
be asking to elicit criticism from my team?
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
So if you say, do you have any feedback for me,
you're wasting your breath.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
I can already tell you the answer.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Oh no, everything's fine, Like nobody wants to give you feedback,
except your teenage children. One of the things that I
recommend is that people come up with their go to
question and I'll tell you what mine is, which I
didn't to be fair, I didn't make up myself. I
had a coach tell me this, so you can borrow
(12:54):
it if it works for you. Is what could I
do or stop doing that would make it easier to
work with me? And if you buy the book and
read it, you'll notice it's worded a little bit differently
in the book. And I got some feedback that the
way I worded it in the book was imperfect. So
the way it's worded in the book is is there anything?
(13:15):
And someone pointed out, you don't want to ask a
question that can be answered with a yes or no.
So what could I do or stop doing that would
make it easier to work with me. I was working
with Krista Quarrels when she was CEO of Open Table
and she said, Kim, I could never imagine your words
coming out of my mouth.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
And she said, the question I like to ask is
tell me why I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Okay, that's a fine way to ask too, it's got
to sound like you. But The other thing about your
question is you want to make sure that you adjust
it for the person you're asking it up. There are
a couple of people on Christmas team who found that
question too aggressive, and so for them she had to
sort of back off and ask it more gently.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
What are some other variations on that question that you
asked to elicit face back from others that are stuck
with you?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Jason Rosoff, who is the person who I co founded
Radical can or the company with he likes to ask
where this week did I get involved where you didn't
want me involved? And where did I not get involved
where you did want me involved? And the interesting thing
there is that some people really like their managers to
(14:25):
mostly leave them alone, and other people really want them
more involved. And so as a manager, you want to
try to be a thought partner, not a micromanager or
an absentee manager. But different people are going to define
those things differently, So it's useful to find out what
people want from you.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
How do you know when you're asking too often for criticism?
Is there a line somewhere?
Speaker 2 (14:51):
As a general rule, I want to ask at the
end of every one on one, like once a.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Week, so I want to ask about that, because it's
one thing to ask for feedback, and it's another too
you receive it in a way that positively reinforces the feedback,
giving you more feedback.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
So how have you, kim become.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Better at receiving criticism And I'm interested, particularly in criticism
that you feel is unwarranted.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yeah, you want.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
To make sure that you're listening with the intent to understand,
not to respond. The first step is to manage your
own defensiveness. The next thing that's really important is to
reward the candor when you get it. When someone gives
you some feedback, they are taking a risk, and if
you don't reward risk richly, you'll never.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Take that risk again. It's tricky because it's easy to
feel like a disagreement poses a risk to your relationship.
But some of the best relationships of my career have
started with a good, respectful disagreement.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I want to ask about a situation I was in
a few months ago where I had been given some
feedback via one of my team that was about someone
that had left the organization. And when I heard the feedback,
I knew intellectually I need to receive the feedback and
not get defensive, but when I heard the feedback, I
(16:11):
actually knew that there was another side of the story,
and at the time, I thought, how do I respond
to this? And I made the decision to just be
quiet and listen and thank the person for the feedback.
But then I walked away from that conversation and I
felt so frustrated, And a few weeks later, I said, hey,
when you gave me this feedback, it was really hard
(16:32):
to take for this reason, and I didn't share with
them my side of the story because I wanted to
protect confidentiality. But I'd gotten really frustrated sitting with that,
and I want to know, what should I have done
better in that situation, Kim.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yeah, it seems like a really hard situation because you
couldn't share your side of the story. I think I
would double click on that a little bit and say,
are there maybe there are some details of your side
of the story that you can't but maybe there's some
that you can share. Because it never is very satisfying
to say that's not what happened, but I can't tell
you what happened, you know, So I think what I
(17:10):
would have done in that moment is to say I
really appreciate that you shared this with me, and I'm
sorry that you had the experience you had.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
It sounds like it was really frustrating.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
However, there's more to this story, and here's what I
can tell you. There's a lot more that I cannot
tell you, but I want to assure you that I
wouldn't have done what you thought I did. You know
something along those lines, because the problem with just saying
thank you for the feedback and walking away and feeling
(17:43):
frustrated is that, unless you're an Oscar winning actor, that
person knew you were frustrated.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
We will be back with Kim soon talking about what
to do if you really disagree with the feedback that
you've just been given, and also Kim's views on the
best way to give someone praise. If you're looking for
more tips to improve the way you work and live,
I write a weekly newsletter where I share practical and
(18:13):
simple to apply tips to improve your life. You can
sign up for that at Amantha dot substack dot com.
That's Amantha dot substack dot com. In those situations where
you're receiving feedback and or criticism, let's say, and you
(18:35):
find the five to ten percent that you can agree
with and embrace and learn from. But if there is
a situation where you do disagree with a large chunk,
should you raise that at the time or should you
give it some space and then come back to it
potentially when emotions have come down? What should we be
doing there?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
First of all, don't shut all over yourself. There's no
one right answer, So how some compassion for yourself. If
I am feeling like I'm really upset, then I might wait. However,
if I'm calm enough that I feel like my executive
function is more or less fully engaged, it's a little
bit easier to have the conversation on the spot.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
I would love to talk about the flip side to
giving criticism, which is giving praise and how do I
do a good job of giving praise.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
The rules of thumb for praise are the same as
those for criticism. You want to for both praise and criticism.
You want to be humble. You're not the arbiter of
what's good or bad. You're sharing your perspective. You want
to state your intention to be helpful. You want to
do it right away. The purpose of praise is to
tell people what to do. More of why would you wait.
(19:47):
You want to praise in public, criticize in private, and
you want to do it in person.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Something I'm curious about is the idea of how we
can get better as a team at debating obviously doing
that with respect. What advice do you have to get
better at creating a culture of debate in a respectful way.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
One of the most important things you can do is
to create consequences for bullying, because there's nothing that will
destroy a good debate faster than someone who decides to
bully others in the course of that debate. And the
thing about debate is that it has to happen in public.
Making sure that you're creating an environment in which people
(20:29):
are respectful, that where you're disrupting bias when it happens,
and where you create conversational consequences for bullying as well
as compensation consequences and career consequences. Ultimately, that's going to
help you create a culture of debate. You also want
to make sure that you ask people to really check
(20:50):
their egos when they come into debate. You're debating an idea,
you're debating a notion, and the goal is to come
together the best idea the best solution that you can have.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
You seen certain methods of helping people check their ego
and be focused on debating the ideas and not the person.
Just people naturally feel a little bit attached to their ideas.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
And take it personally when they criticized.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, criticism shouldn't happen in public. You shouldn't criticize a
person in a debate. Anytime you criticize someone in public,
they're going to take it personally.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
So it's not a good idea. But you can debate.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
One of the things I talked about in Radical Respect
is a Rogerian debate. And the idea of a rogarian
debate is that you and I at a certain point
and the discussion, we switch roles and I argue for
your side and you argue for my side. And that
can really help people learn to listen to each other
and learn to talk more respectfully to each other so
(21:56):
that we can put our heads together and come up
with a better answer. I mean, that's the point of
being on a team, as you get different points of
view and you put them out on the table, and
that's what helps you come up with the best answer.
Steve jobs Likens debate on a team to a rock tumbler.
You put a bunch of ordinary stones in this tin?
Can you put some grit in there? It's on the motor,
(22:17):
it spins around. There's a lot of noise, a lot
of friction, but outcome these beautifully polished stones. And that's
what we can do for each other if we're willing
to debate and discuss ideas openly.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
I do love that. How do you know at what
point to introduce that? Do you typically assign someone with
the role of facilitator to go, okay, now it's time
to switch viewpoints? How have you found that works in
practice when you've used it.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I'm usually not very good at being very formal.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
The way that I tend to use it is if
I notice the quality of the conversation degrading, I will suggest,
why don't we switch roles? I also use it when
I have a particular point of view, and if I
have some kind of authority in the situation, I want
to lay that power down, and so I find it
very useful to say, Okay, I know here's what you think.
(23:05):
Here's what I think. Why don't I argue your point
of view? When you argue mine and that can make
it easier for folks to argue with me and also
maybe to understand my point of view.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I love that I'm definitely going to be taking a
lot of these ideas back to my business INVENTI and Kim,
thank you for all the tools and strategies that you've
given me as a leader, and thank you so much
for your time today.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, thank you for yours love your podcast, and hopefully
the Radical candor Radical Respect podcast can help your listeners
as well.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
If you liked this chat with Kim Scott, you should
definitely go out and grab her latest book, Radical Respect,
and if you haven't read her classic Radical Canada, I
highly recommend it as a really simple and practical way
of improving how you give and receive feedback and ultimately
become a better leader. If you enjoyed today's episode, I
(24:00):
would love to ask a favor. Click follow on the
podcast app that you're listening to this on, and if
you're feeling really generous, leave a review for the show.
Following this podcast and leaving reviews helps how I work
find new listeners and your support is one of the
things that makes this podcast possible. Thank you for sharing
(24:22):
part of your day with me by listening to How
I Worked.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
If you're keen for.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
More tips on how to work better, connect with me
via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just
search for Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded on
the traditional land of the Warrangery people, part of the
cool And Nation. I am so grateful for being able
to work and live on this beautiful land and I
(24:48):
want to pay my respects to elder's past, present and emerging.
How I Work is produced by me Amantha Imba. The
episode producer was Rowena Murray, and then thank you to
Martin Imba who does the audio mix for every episode
and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.
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