January 15, 2025 • 34 mins
**BEST OF**
Laura Mae Martin has my dream job – she is Google’s Executive Productivity Advisor. Her job is to advise the top folk at Google on how to be more productive. In this chat, we cover:
* Ruthless Prioritisation: the importance of saying no to good things to make room for great things.
* Sunday Planning Ritual: Laura’s ritual of planning the upcoming week every Sunday, and her exact process for doing this.
* List Funnels: a method to manage tasks by categorising and prioritising them to ensure nothing falls through the cracks.
* Downtime: the critical role of downtime in productivity, with Laura sharing her practice of “No Tech Tuesday” to disconnect and recharge.
* Generative AI in Productivity: how generative AI tools can augment productivity, automating routine tasks and freeing up time for more strategic work.
* And much, much more…
Get a copy of Laura’s new book Uptime.
My latest book The Health Habit is out now. You can order a copy here: https://www.amantha.com/the-health-habit/
Connect with me on the socials:
Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amanthaimber)
Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/amanthai)
If you are looking for more tips to improve the way you work and live, I write a weekly newsletter where I share practical and simple to apply tips to improve your life. You can sign up for that at https://amantha-imber.ck.page/subscribe
Visit https://www.amantha.com/podcast for full show notes from all episodes.
Get in touch at amantha@inventium.com.au
Credits:
Host: Amantha Imber
Sound Engineer: Martin Imber
Episode Producer: Rowena Murray
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How I Work is having a little break over the
festive season, so I've picked a handful of my absolute
favorite episodes from the last eighteen months to play for
you in this best of series. I hope you enjoy,
and I'll be back with new episodes twice weekly from
January twenty eight. In a world that never stops, how
do you prioritize not just the good? The great Laura
(00:26):
May Martin is Google's executive productivity advisor, and she has
the answers. Laura's job is to advise the top execxit
Google on how to use their time better, and she
has transformed the art of prioritization and productivity into a science.
This is Laura's third time on How I Work, and
(00:49):
there is a reason I keep inviting her back. It's
because her advice is so incredibly practical and helpful. In
today's chat, we talk about how Laura organizes her day,
plans out her week, and tames her inbox. But Laura's
approach is not just about doing more, but about doing
(01:12):
what matters most. My name is doctor Amantha Imbert. I'm
an organizational psychologist and founder of behavior change consultancy Inventium,
and this is how I work a show about how
to help you get so much more out of the
hours in your day. When I think about the clients
(01:35):
I work with at Inventium, getting help with prioritization is
a topic that always comes up. So I wanted to
know how does Laura approach prioritization.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
The word prioritization when you ask people to de find it,
they start talking about like reordering things or finding the
things that are at the top and moving other things
to the bottom. So when I think of prioritization, I
have this vision of ruthless prioritization in my head, Like
I tell the execs that I coach, you're gonna turn down,
You're going to say no to You're gonna cut really
really really good things to make room for those great things.
(02:11):
And if you aren't cutting those things, even if you
have the time, you don't have the energy. Those aren't
the same. Just becoming aggressive about priorities is like the
right way to think about it, because if we go
with our natural like I could probably do this, I
can probably do this, we're over committed. What would future
me wish I had prioritized and go from there?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
So what are some specific rituals or like practices that
you have when it comes to sitting down and actually
working this stuff out.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, I'm so glad you asked that, because I read
a lot of books, as I'm sure you do, and
a lot of people love to share big picture ideas
and big picture things, and I'm always like, no, what
is the recipe? Like what do I do tonight? What
do I do tomorrow? And so actually, as I develop
all this material over the past eight years at Google,
(03:02):
these were things that I was actually doing. So when
I sat down to plan my week, this is what
I was doing. And then I made that into a
weekly planner that's in the book and now on my website.
And so having that Sunday night planning, I feel like
that's one of the big things that I definitely do
because I know somebody asked us to come for dinner
on Sunday or something. Immediately, I'm like, well, I'm gonna
(03:24):
have to do my Sunday planning Saturday or Monday, because
that's such a point of control in my week. Is
like looking ahead, looking at my commitments, looking what I
have time for, looking what I did last week, and
what was the good use of my time, look back,
look forwards. Making a daily list the night before of
what I planned to do to the next day. That's
definitely one of those tactical things that I do.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Tell me more about the Sunday planning. What does that
template look like that you're using. What are the questions
that you're thinking about?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yes, I have all of these on my website. I
think they're certainly easier to follow visually, but I'll talk
through them. The first piece of that is the look
back look forward, and I think that is an exercise
I teach for executives because a lot of times what
happens is you kind of barrel through your week and
then the week's over, and then do you ever actually
take the time to go back and say, like, what
(04:11):
was a great ease of my time? You know that
third meeting on Wednesday? Did I feel like it was
a little too long? Or I meet with this person
a little too often? And so we don't actually like
reflect and then make changes. We just go through it.
And so that piece is the look back, and the
look forward is just a series of questions that I
ask and look, is there any conflicts on my schedule
that I need to resolve? Looking at my schedule as
(04:32):
future me walking through each day, is there a place
I know that I'm going to be like, Gosh, I
wish I would have scheduled a break here, or really
wouldn't wish I committed to work on this when I'm
not going to have the energy. So that little worksheet,
you know, ten minutes of time is going to make
a big difference in your week. And then the next
piece of it is the actual list planning. And so
that's another thing I really get tactical and in the book,
(04:52):
because it's like not just like make it to do list, No,
It's like, well, if I have something to do in
a month, if I've somebody do tomorrow, if I don't
do it today, how do I make sure I get
to it another day? How do I keep all that
things accountable? So that list funnel I talk about is
something I do every Sunday. You know, I look at
my big main list. I call it the dashboard of
everything I could be doing at all times, you know,
(05:13):
everything I have to do in all areas of my life.
And then I look at my week and say, oh,
I actually have a pretty light day on Wednesday. Let
me get to some of that submitting medical bills that
I've been putting off. You know, that's just on that list,
but I'm keeping myself looking at it to make sure
it actually gets done. So that's my Sunday.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I would love you to talk more about list funnels.
I found that concept really intriguing in up time. Sorry
for someone that does not come across your work or
the idea of a least funnel? What is a list funnel?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Laura? Yeah, So the idea of that is just that
lists serve multiple purposes. And you know, if you want
to learn piano one day, and then your boss tells
you something at nine am that's do at five pm,
how do they go on the same list. How do
you capture things that you think of when you're on
a walk with your dog and you think of something
you need to do this week. So the idea of
(06:01):
the list funnel is just that it starts really wide.
So it's that huge main list broken into different categories
so it looks like a dashboard. It's like all the
calls I need to make, all the personal things I
need to do on my computer, all the errands I
need to run, the things around my house, and the
reason it's grouped like that is because one night you
might feel like, Wow, I'm really burnt out from looking
at the screen, but I want to get some stuff
(06:22):
done around the house. Great, Now I have a huge
group of those all together, or I have some time
in the car I'm going to make all the phone
calls I need to make. Great, they're all grouped together.
But the bigger piece of the funnel is you're not
going to get to all those things that week, So
why look at them over and over and stress yourself
out knowing that they're not going to get to that week?
So you've narrow it down down the funnel, Now what
(06:44):
am I doing this week? And then that helps you
go even smaller, which is what am I doing this day?
And the absolute smallest piece is what am I doing
hour by hour? Because all kinds of studies show that
if you actually plan out, if you actually write nine
to ten, work out tomorrow, ten to eleven, work on
that presentation, you're way more likely to do it. So
it's the idea that your action items funneled down and
(07:06):
then once they're executed, they're done, they're out of the funnel.
And so it's just a system that keeps you mentally safe,
knowing that everything you have to do is captured and
it's moving its way down. If it gets stuck in
the funnel because you didn't get to it, it's back
on the other list and you'll see it again.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Can you tell me for you personally, Laura, what are
all the categories of list funnels that you have in
your life?
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, that's so Actually exactly what I have in the
book is what I use. You're gonna laugh because like
in the book, I had to put an example list,
and I truly truly went to my current main list
and wrote everything I had on there, so you'll tell
it was like the spring, because I'm like register for
summer camps, kindergarten, kindergarten deadline, to submit paperwork, buying new
(07:54):
bathing suits for our beach trip. Like it was exactly
what I currently was doing at that time. So I
I do have those categories, you know, things at work
on the computer, things in my personal life on the computer,
calls returns, I need to make things I need to buy,
and then I keep grocery completely separate because that's its
own whole buying process. And then one list I talk
(08:16):
about that I would say this is the single thing
I use the most in a day is my capture list.
And that's my list of every single thought that comes
to me, whether it's something I need to do, something
I forgot, something I need to buy. It all goes
on one list and I access that using my voice.
So I just say, hey, Google, add eggs to the
capture list. Hey Google, add email Brian to the capture list.
(08:39):
And then when I look at that during some of
those rituals like on Sunday or on Tuesday and Thursday,
I do it. But it's all those ideas that have
come to me in one place. So I use that,
I mean probably fifteen times a day, just everything that
I think of that I need to do.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Now tell me about saying no, because I know you
used to be really bad at these and how did
you become good at it.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
I actually had a mentor a manager, and he gave
me that feedback. He was in nice words, constructive words.
He was like, you're kind of a pushover, and it's
getting to you because I can tell that you're over committed,
and I can tell that you're doing things that even
you know you shouldn't do. I think the biggest piece
for me was saying no without coming off as abrasive
(09:24):
or keeping that social capital that you have with friends
and coworkers. And it's a really fine line. And I
was worried about becoming that person who says no to everything,
because that has its own negative effects. And so I
try to do like actual sentences that I've used that
have gone well for me. You know, like, Hey, as
much as I would love to do that speaking event,
(09:45):
I'm actually holding that week for some work that I
think you know is coming in and I would call
this one no, But here's a resource that I used
for a similar event, and it would be great for
you to use it. And then sometimes I'll even follow
back up and say, like, how did the event go?
So sorry, speak at it like, hope everything went great.
So it's important to find that balance. And I think
that was really hard for me, but it's good because
(10:07):
it gave me like years of material of what has
worked well for me to say no. And so all
of those tactics I listed in the book.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, I love the tactics that you listened in the book.
I personally found them very helpful, and like you, I
used to struggle so much with saying no, although now
I feel like I get a lot of practice and
saying no multiple multiple times a day, so I think
the more you practice, the easier it becomes true.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Definitely yes, And you probably feel that when someone says
no to you, you respect them for it, and especially
if they're kind about it, you think, like, wow, they're
really thoughtful about their priorities. For whatever reason, it doesn't
fit in like you may be disappointed, but I think
it's just knowing that if you say no to someone
and you explain to them in the right way, they're
they're going to see your side of it and you're
(10:55):
not ruining a relationship.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
I guess yeah, I reckon. One of the biggest things
things that has changed the way I say no is speed.
So I used to think that by saying a slow no,
like sitting on a request for a few days and
then saying no was the more respectful way to do it,
as if I'd given it a few days thought. But
I can't remember which guest it was on how I work,
(11:18):
But they talked about the power of a quick note
like you just like people don't want to be left hanging.
They want to move on. If the answer is no.
And so the biggest change I've made in my life
around knows is that I will say a very quick no,
and I will give contacts, I'll explain why. But I
found speed and I really love it when I get
quick nos back because I can just move on and
(11:38):
I don't have to waste time following up.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
So yeah, yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Now with saying no, I mean no is about setting boundaries.
And in your book Uptime, you also talk about downtime,
and I want to know, like, for you personally, how
do you set boundaries for yourself? Given you are someone
that loves what you do. Your passion comes across so clearly,
but also you've got a family their priority. How do
(12:03):
you think about boundaries?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I think the first piece of it is actually like
setting them. And so when I work with an exec,
I say, like, what are some of your working boundaries?
And a lot of times I can tell how it's going.
If they have no answer to that, it means they
haven't really sat down and said I do this, I
don't do this, And I think that that's a piece
that you really have to define. Google has a lot
of cool things built into our culture where it's like
(12:27):
I can communicate those whether it's in my signature or
a user manual about me and working with me. But
I think that actually saying in my head like I
do not email on the weekends and I don't check
email on the weekends, Like saying that is actually really
powerful because it even keeps me accountable, you know, for
saying that that's something I do. I tell people that,
(12:48):
and then I know that they're not going to expect
an email from me because I've communicated that I do that.
I think it's finding those routines, so even like putting
my phone away before meals and things like that so
I'm not tempted to check or work while I'm with
my family. So you know, it's easy to say, oh,
I don't do this, but then send emails on the weekend,
and it's like, no, you have to really keep that,
(13:09):
Like eighty twenty. If it's a boundary that you've set,
you want to really keep that up to see the
benefits of it, because if you're it's just words, you're
not going to see the value.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
I like the idea of putting your boundary in your
email signature. Can you tell me what that looks like
for you, how do you communicate boundaries? And what are
some of the examples that you've seen with fellow Googles
in terms of how they're communicating boundaries in the email signature.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yes, a lot of our executives have like a user manual.
They call it like a how to work with me doc,
and so that's the bigger way of saying, here's how
to work with me. So I have one of those
that basically says, these are the things that I prefer
send me an email before adding time to my calendar,
because I prefer to communicate their first. During the workday,
I'm usually in meetings or focused intentionally, so please don't
(13:55):
chat me unless it's something that has to do in
the next thirty minutes or so I don't check in
on the weekends. I do check email from seven am
to six pm or whatever that is, or I do
check email Monday through Friday. Just communicating even like a
preference like boundaries like an aggressive word, I think, but
even a preference like I prefer to be emailed versus chat.
(14:16):
I think I've seen that in people's signatures, and it
just kind of gives you that oh okay, like I
didn't know that about them, you know, or some people,
some executives are like, just sign up for my office
hours and don't put another email in my inbox, Like
that's what those are for. So I've seen execs with
that and they link to the office hours and it's
like there, I was going to send them another email,
but now I know, oh that I'll just schedule this slots.
(14:37):
A lot of it's just communicating. It's just gently guiding
people to work with you the way that you want
to work. And it can be powerful, whether it's just
one line under your name.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
There's something about your morning, Rachel, which I know you've
thought about a lot, which really stood out to me,
and you talk about it being a gift from past you.
Could you tell me about that concept?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, so I'd like that's the thing when we're trying
to plan for future us. I try to do something
for myself the night before. That's a gift for mourning me.
So it's something that mourning me is going to walk
down and think, oh, I'm so glad you know X.
And so, whether that's pre packing lunches, setting the coffee
machine on a timer, making sure the kitchen is clean,
(15:21):
picking out my clothes. I'm doing something to set myself
up in the morning because that morning is just such
another point of control. It's another one of those like
Sunday night things where it's like, if you can get
control of your morning, it really does affect your whole day.
So I know that by spending a few minutes doesn't
make it much of a difference if I go to
bed ten minutes later because I made lunches, But it
(15:41):
does make a big difference in the morning if I
feel that light feeling of wow, this is already done.
Now I have a little more time to do this
or whatever that is. So I try to do that
for myself, and even with my kids, I try to
help them do that. Pick out your outfit before Why
don't you go ahead and pack up your backpacke, You'll
be so happy you did that in the morning. And
so I think it's just a good have to learn overall.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
I'm going to talk to my daughter Frankie after this chat.
Although one hack that I do use at home as
of HEROD, and I heard about this strategy a few
years ago from this quite well known female entrepreneur. She's
got quite a lot of kids and she would talk
about how she would put her young children to bed
(16:22):
wearing their school uniform and at the time, I thought, well,
that's that's a bit much. That's interesting, but it's a
bit much. I now have adopted that hack. When it's
a sports uniform day, my daughter is leaving in her
T shirt and shorts because it just removes friction for
the next day and it is a massive gift to
the whole family's future. Exactly, it's a future all of us.
(16:49):
We will be back soon with Laura talking about the
biggest problems that executives at Google have in managing their time,
and the most common strategy is she gives them to help.
If you're looking for more tips to improve the way
you work and live, I write a weekly newsletter where
I share practical and simple to apply tips to improve
your life. You can sign up for that at Amantha
(17:13):
dot substack dot com. That's Amantha dot substack dot com. Now,
a lot of your time at Google is spent coaching executives,
and I feel like a lot of people would imagine
a senior executive Google just being a master of their
time and productivity. But I imagine, you know, maybe that's
(17:36):
not the case, And I would love to know what
are the biggest challenges that you observe these leaders having
in terms of how they're thinking about and using their time.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah, I get that question a lot, Like what are
execs dealing with? They have total control of their time,
you know, thinking that they have maybe an administrative professional
working with them. Isn't it easier? And it's kind of
funny because you know, no matter what your level is,
if you're entering the workplace or you were a very
senior exec with a global team of a lot of
the issues are the same. But figuring out the time
(18:07):
management piece, the energy management piece. One of the cool
things about my job is that a lot of these
execs are productive and it's like maybe they've totally mastered
one piece of it and I'm learning from them, and
then I'm able to share those practices as I go
to different coaching sessions and so that's really cool, And
especially I talked in the book about one executive that
(18:27):
really mastered urgent. You know, he had a lot of
urgent coming up. He figured out how to have a
slot every day for urgent. His whole team knew that
slot when something urgent comes up, they all cleared their
calendars knowing that's when he's going to meet with him,
like things like that, I didn't think of that, He
thought of that, And now I've shared that with so
many people, and so it's cool because you know, while
(18:47):
I am able to share ideas and go through these
exercises that help the whole team think and their chief
of staff, I also am able to share, Oh, I
just talked to so and so last week and they're
able to do this and that would work great for you,
and connect them and things like that. So that's fun.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
What are the most common strategies that you find yourself
giving to these executives? Are there any kind of common
solutions that you find yourself talking about a lot with them.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
I think one of the biggest things that I constantly
get the feedback about that makes a huge difference is
finding those power hours and really working to protect them.
And so the biggest thing is when I say, oh,
when do you do most of your heads down work
or when are you most focused? Maybe it's a West
Coast executive in the US, and they'll say, oh, you know,
(19:36):
the morning. I'm a morning person. I really like, I'm
so focused. I love the mornings. And then I'm like, well,
when are you doing most of your heads down work? Oh,
always in the afternoon or at night, because my schedule
is full of East Coast meetings because I woke up
late and that's when all my team wants to meet.
So that's such a small thing. But even saying let's
just block the morning for you, even one maybe two days,
(20:00):
and give you like two two to three hour blocks
that are solid. You know they're there. You don't have
any meetings come, you turn off your chat, you close
your email. You really get done what you need to
get done. And that can be so powerful. I've heard
over and over the executives say like, gosh, I just know,
I always know I have my Wednesday morning, you know,
(20:20):
and it's their natural time. Because for that same executive,
blocking nine to eleven is so different than blocking three
to five. It's so different. Their output is different, their
energy is different. And so I think that that's one
of the big tactics that I feel like I'm always
talking about and always getting good feedback later on.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Yeah, I remember I interviewed Mel Silva, who heads up
Googling Australia and New Zealand and she had thinking dice,
which I think from memory, she scheduled them about once
every six weeks, and she would plan for them. And
it's a longer version of what you're describing. They are.
What else do you recommend to these execs that you
find yourself just hearing consistently great feedback like this. This
(21:00):
has really changed the way that I work.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
It's funny that you say that, because definitely one of
the biggest things that I wouldn't say I do it.
I wouldn't give myself the credit. But giving that permission
to have blank space in your schedule, whether it's a
no meeting Friday, or it's a think day, or it's
a really long break for a lunch where you're just
kind of thinking or decompressing. I feel like a lot
of the times I'm just kind of saying, oh, even
(21:25):
an exact higher up than you spends one day coding,
like you can do that too, or whatever it is.
So I feel like that idea of just like white
space in your schedule equals white space in your head
equals new ideas, big picture vision. So that's certainly a
piece of it. And then I would say the next
piece of it is just again getting like aggressive about
the schedules. I'm that person who's looking at each meeting
(21:48):
with them saying, do you really need thirty minutes here?
Or could we do fifteen minutes? Could we group these
three meetings together anywhere? Low hanging fruit on the schedule.
And it seems so small cutting meetings down fifty minutes,
But if you do that to ten meetings over the
course of a couple of weeks, it's like now you're
all of a sudden feeling like, Wow, I have more
time here, more time here. That's definitely something that when
(22:10):
I circle back, when I do my check back ins,
that's always like, oh, I feel like I have so
much time. I'm like with a magnifying glass on their schedule,
like why is this here? Have you always been in that?
Would you sign up for this tomorrow? Or have you
just always done it? So that's my job.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I love that, and that's such a great question, like
would you sign up for this tomorrow? I want to
switch gears and talk about downtime, the opposite of up time.
How do you think about downtime in your own life?
Speaker 2 (22:38):
That's funny you said the opposite, because I think that's
what we think the opposite, but in the book I
talk about how it's they go hand in hand, they're necessary.
So one example I always give is, you know, I
love my stationary bike. I normally do a forty five
minute just regular ride, regular class, but my highest score
is from a thirty minute interval class. If someone was
watching that, they would think, Wow, she got off the
(22:59):
bike fifteen minutes earlier, lazy, not working as hard, and
she took a ton of breaks. No, because of those breaks,
I was able to work harder in the sprints and
finish earlier. So that's kind of the point of downtime
is that people think like taking that hour for myself,
taking that vacation, like overall, I'm not working as hard. No,
(23:21):
that is actually what's fueling you to work hard. And
so in my own life, my husband and I like
five years ago, we started doing no tech Tuesday night.
But it was just my way of saying like, Okay,
I'm not going to go extreme and say like I'm
never looking at my phone or you know whatever, but
one night a week, from dinner until the next morning,
we can do something other than TV and technology. Could
(23:41):
be board games, just sitting and talking, sit outside and
we ended up loving it so much. I started this
challenge at Google and it's great and people feel the
digital detox. But the biggest piece of it is when
they say how they feel on Wednesday. And that's the
craziest part, Like I'm so much more productive on Wednesday.
I could not solve this problem, and I didn't want
(24:01):
to do no Tech Tuesday because I wanted to keep
heads down. But I let myself do it, and I
came up with the best answer when I woke up
on Wednesday morning. So those little routines of like I
put my phone down here, I always make time for
a workout when I'm on vacation, I do not check email,
I take my weekends. I come up with my best
ideas when I'm on a walk, not when I'm in
(24:21):
my ninth meeting. And so by prioritizing those times, I'm
actually a better long term employee. And so I think
that managers should prioritize downtime for their own teams and
reward that.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
I love what you say about no Tech Tuesday and
the no Tech Tuesday challengeing up time. I was curious
why Tuesday, and also I would love feto explain more
around the rules of what is a no Tech Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, I chose Tuesday mostly because Monday felt like I'm
still like starting the week, and one of my favorite
TV shows is on Monday, honestly, so I was like,
I don't know that I want to not watch that,
and Tuesday just has that rink to it. It's memorable.
A lot of people is like, oh, Tuesday's kind of
like a down night. You know, it's not in the
first day of the week, and you know I'm not
piled in work yet, and so I was like, let's
(25:11):
just do that, and then it's stuck. And the rules
are basically you pick a time and from that point
until the following morning. And I even do the wake
Up Wednesday Bonus challenge, which is if you can go
thirty minutes after you wake up you don't touch technology.
But the point is just like breaking that habit and
(25:31):
realizing that you probably look at your phone for a
lot of things you don't need. You probably do enjoy
some hobby that you just don't do because you have
access to your computer, and nothing needs to be extreme. Obviously,
technology has its place in our life, but so does
learning how to set it down, and so I think
it's just like a one of those small habits, small
routines that can just be eye opening. And I love
(25:54):
watching the comments pour in because it's a six week
challenge and the first week it'll be like, this was
so hard. I actually astounded how many times I went
to pick up my phone and didn't have it. I
kind of felt anxious, I kind of felt lonely, you know,
like all these things, and then it's like now, actually,
right as we're speaking, we're in the fifth week, and
I just read through them and it's like, I'm loving
this more and more. I added a second night. I
(26:16):
have people post pictures of what they accomplished, and it's
like knitting, iron beats painting. I learned a new recipe
and I actually had my grandma's handwriting instead of looking
up online. Just really cool ways of using your time,
you know. So that's how it all started.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Love that. I want to talk about generative AI. I
am sure that as a productivity expert you're using it
a lot, and particularly a productivity expert within Google, I'm
definitely using it a lot in my work. I want
to know how are you using it day to day?
Where has it changed workflows or how you're approaching different
(26:52):
kinds of.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Tasks when you think of it, like any tool, my
biggest rule on tools is like you've got to learn
the power of it, And for AI, I think that's
just like even bigger that can be from learn the
keyboard shortcuts in your email program to like learn how
AI can start that entire project for you. And so
one of the things that I really push is just
(27:14):
kind of like spending time watching some videos looking at prompts,
you know, even if it's like thirty minutes saying like
what's the coolest thing that Gemini can do in Google workspace?
Like I'm going to look that up and then see
people using it in Google sheets and say, wow, that's
so cool. I haven't thought of that. So I think
that that's the biggest piece is like getting ahead of
it and understanding what it can do. I always just
(27:36):
think in my head, how can I start with AI?
You know, anytime I sit down when I look at
my to do list, sometimes I just kind of scan,
like is there anything on here that I could just
source out? Because that's giving me more time for higher
value tasks. So any template I'm writing, looking for creative images.
When I'm doing a training that represents something kicking off
(27:56):
something with an email, looking at text and saying, God,
this really needs to be like half the word count
that it is, I'm going to ask it to narrow
that down for me, and just always using it as
like a starting point of what can AI do for
me so that I can be more strategic with my time?
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Are there certain tasks that you do as part of
your role that you have found JENII is just not
good for I'm always interested in, like what are the
categories of things where we should use GENI to augment
what we do and where does it really need the
human thought?
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, I think anything that feels analytical from your perspective.
So like that example of like the calendar analysis, I've
really been thinking in my head, like so AI could
basically tell me like what meetings I'm in and what
time I'm spending them, But they're not going to be able.
It's not going to be able to say do you
really need thirty minutes with John or could you do fifteen?
(28:55):
It's really combing through making those personal decisions. You can't
source that out, but if you can pull the information
with the help of a tool and then look at
it instead of you having to pull that information yourself.
You're getting the most out of AI at this point.
Now that being said, who knows where we'll be in
even a year. There could be some pattern learning where
(29:17):
it says, hey, we noticed that you started taking meetings
this time, and we notice that on Wednesday all your
meetings tend to go late. You know, should you that
kind of thing? So I'm just excited to see where
that goes because we don't know yet how it will
play into our lives and our workflow as it starts.
To learn things like.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
That, I'd love to finish by asking you around, like,
with all the training and coaching that you've done over
the years, what are the tips that you hear from
people that have been their favorite, like the stickiest ones,
the ones that have had the most tampedled. What are
the things that people just keep coming back to you
(29:56):
and going, Laura, this has been a game changer's.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Funny well, as you know because it was in your book.
I think the thinking of email like laundry. That is
something that like ten years after people have come take
my course, they come back to me and say, like
I cannot get that out of my head. It changed
my life. You know, funny things like that where they're like,
I sleep better because of this email training. I'm like,
it's an email training, but you know whatever. It kind
of gives them that mental clarity around email, which is
(30:22):
such a big personal thing for us.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
So, for those that haven't heard, your email is laundry,
and could you just like briefly expriabing that because I
love it.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yes, we do our laundry, and we would never open
the dryer and pick out one shirt full of that shirt,
walk it all the way up, put in the drawer,
pair of pants comes out, it's kind of wet. Should
we throw it back in the dryer? I found this sock.
I don't feel like finding the other stock, so I'll
just put one sock away. And I'm just going to
constantly open my dryer door fifteen times a day and
(30:52):
remind myself I don't have time to do it all.
I haven't done it, and I have no idea where
my pink shirt is. That sounds so stressful when we're
talking about laundry. So when we're talking about email, you're
doing the same thing. When you mark something as on red.
That's throwing what pants back in, you know, finding one
email and responding to it and then going back to
read another email. That's just folding one shirt. So instead,
(31:15):
what we should do is take everything out aka dryer
zero inbox zero, put it into laundry basket. Things I
need to fold, things I need to hang, things I
need to read, and then we do them all at
once as much as possible. So full, fold, fuld, fold, fold.
I'm carrying this whole pile of shirts up one time.
So read, read, read, read, read or respond respond, respond,
(31:35):
matching it with our energy because I'm so happy when
I don't waste really good power hours on reading industry news.
It's like, that's a great thing to do. When a
meeting ends ten minutes early. I think it's just like
a mindset shift. That's like, why am I doing my
email this way? It's really inefficient. So, you know, that's
one that definitely sticks with people.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
I think, what else what else steaks?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yeah, one that people really like is like the choosing
hot spots and not spots. Date dependency research tells us
that we take in all this information when we're working
or when we're doing anything anywhere. So you know, our
brain kind of knows the site smells, sounds of everything,
and so if we use that to our advantage, we
start doing certain tasks at certain places. So that could
(32:20):
mean like something's in the office, something's at home, or
like I always send email from this one chair in
my office, I always code from the cafe. It teaches
your brain to say, like, when I'm here, I do this.
When I'm here, I do this, and then you easily
slip into that pattern when you're in those places. So
people really like that one. And then the idea of
a not spot like places that you never work, you
(32:42):
never think about work because your brain is safe there
and your brain never has stressed. Or you know, you
keep your car canute sacred or whatever that is. So
those are some of the big big bites that people
always come back for.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Laura, I just love chats. This is the third time
you've been on How I Work. And I've got to say,
when I found out that you were writing a book,
I think maybe a year or two ago, when you
first mentioned it, I was just so excited. You are
just such a wealth of knowledge, but importantly, you make
it so simple and practical for people to apply so
thank you so much for coming back on How I
(33:17):
Work again. It's always such a joy. Thank you, Laura, Yes,
thanks for having me. I hope you like this chat
with Laura May Martin, and if you did, you should
definitely grab a copy of her book Up Time. I
get sat so many books about time management and productivity,
and this is one of the best I've read in years.
(33:38):
It is such a practical and balanced approach to thinking
about how we use our time. If you enjoyed today's episode,
I would love to ask a favor. Click follow on
the podcast app that you're listening to this on, and
if you're feeling really generous, leave a review for the show.
Following this podcast and leaving reviews helps How I Work
(33:59):
find new listeners, and your support is one of the
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I Work. If you're keen for more tips on how
to work better, connect with me via LinkedIn or Instagram.
I'm very easy to find. Just search for Amantha Imba.
(34:21):
How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of
the Warrenery people, part of the Cool and Nation. I
am so grateful for being able to work and live
on this beautiful land, and I want to pay my
respects to Elder's past, present and emerging. How I Work
is produced by me Amantha Imba. The episode producer was
(34:43):
Rowena Murray. And thank you to Martin Imba who does
the audio mix for every episode and makes everything sound
better than it would have otherwise
How I Work is having a little break over the
festive season, so I've picked a handful of my absolute
favorite episodes from the last eighteen months to play for
you in this best of series. I hope you enjoy,
and I'll be back with new episodes twice weekly from
January twenty eight. In a world that never stops, how
do you prioritize not just the good? The great Laura
(00:26):
May Martin is Google's executive productivity advisor, and she has
the answers. Laura's job is to advise the top execxit
Google on how to use their time better, and she
has transformed the art of prioritization and productivity into a science.
This is Laura's third time on How I Work, and
(00:49):
there is a reason I keep inviting her back. It's
because her advice is so incredibly practical and helpful. In
today's chat, we talk about how Laura organizes her day,
plans out her week, and tames her inbox. But Laura's
approach is not just about doing more, but about doing
(01:12):
what matters most. My name is doctor Amantha Imbert. I'm
an organizational psychologist and founder of behavior change consultancy Inventium,
and this is how I work a show about how
to help you get so much more out of the
hours in your day. When I think about the clients
(01:35):
I work with at Inventium, getting help with prioritization is
a topic that always comes up. So I wanted to
know how does Laura approach prioritization.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
The word prioritization when you ask people to de find it,
they start talking about like reordering things or finding the
things that are at the top and moving other things
to the bottom. So when I think of prioritization, I
have this vision of ruthless prioritization in my head, Like
I tell the execs that I coach, you're gonna turn down,
You're going to say no to You're gonna cut really
really really good things to make room for those great things.
(02:11):
And if you aren't cutting those things, even if you
have the time, you don't have the energy. Those aren't
the same. Just becoming aggressive about priorities is like the
right way to think about it, because if we go
with our natural like I could probably do this, I
can probably do this, we're over committed. What would future
me wish I had prioritized and go from there?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
So what are some specific rituals or like practices that
you have when it comes to sitting down and actually
working this stuff out.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, I'm so glad you asked that, because I read
a lot of books, as I'm sure you do, and
a lot of people love to share big picture ideas
and big picture things, and I'm always like, no, what
is the recipe? Like what do I do tonight? What
do I do tomorrow? And so actually, as I develop
all this material over the past eight years at Google,
(03:02):
these were things that I was actually doing. So when
I sat down to plan my week, this is what
I was doing. And then I made that into a
weekly planner that's in the book and now on my website.
And so having that Sunday night planning, I feel like
that's one of the big things that I definitely do
because I know somebody asked us to come for dinner
on Sunday or something. Immediately, I'm like, well, I'm gonna
(03:24):
have to do my Sunday planning Saturday or Monday, because
that's such a point of control in my week. Is
like looking ahead, looking at my commitments, looking what I
have time for, looking what I did last week, and
what was the good use of my time, look back,
look forwards. Making a daily list the night before of
what I planned to do to the next day. That's
definitely one of those tactical things that I do.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Tell me more about the Sunday planning. What does that
template look like that you're using. What are the questions
that you're thinking about?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yes, I have all of these on my website. I
think they're certainly easier to follow visually, but I'll talk
through them. The first piece of that is the look
back look forward, and I think that is an exercise
I teach for executives because a lot of times what
happens is you kind of barrel through your week and
then the week's over, and then do you ever actually
take the time to go back and say, like, what
(04:11):
was a great ease of my time? You know that
third meeting on Wednesday? Did I feel like it was
a little too long? Or I meet with this person
a little too often? And so we don't actually like
reflect and then make changes. We just go through it.
And so that piece is the look back, and the
look forward is just a series of questions that I
ask and look, is there any conflicts on my schedule
that I need to resolve? Looking at my schedule as
(04:32):
future me walking through each day, is there a place
I know that I'm going to be like, Gosh, I
wish I would have scheduled a break here, or really
wouldn't wish I committed to work on this when I'm
not going to have the energy. So that little worksheet,
you know, ten minutes of time is going to make
a big difference in your week. And then the next
piece of it is the actual list planning. And so
that's another thing I really get tactical and in the book,
(04:52):
because it's like not just like make it to do list, No,
It's like, well, if I have something to do in
a month, if I've somebody do tomorrow, if I don't
do it today, how do I make sure I get
to it another day? How do I keep all that
things accountable? So that list funnel I talk about is
something I do every Sunday. You know, I look at
my big main list. I call it the dashboard of
everything I could be doing at all times, you know,
(05:13):
everything I have to do in all areas of my life.
And then I look at my week and say, oh,
I actually have a pretty light day on Wednesday. Let
me get to some of that submitting medical bills that
I've been putting off. You know, that's just on that list,
but I'm keeping myself looking at it to make sure
it actually gets done. So that's my Sunday.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I would love you to talk more about list funnels.
I found that concept really intriguing in up time. Sorry
for someone that does not come across your work or
the idea of a least funnel? What is a list funnel?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Laura? Yeah, So the idea of that is just that
lists serve multiple purposes. And you know, if you want
to learn piano one day, and then your boss tells
you something at nine am that's do at five pm,
how do they go on the same list. How do
you capture things that you think of when you're on
a walk with your dog and you think of something
you need to do this week. So the idea of
(06:01):
the list funnel is just that it starts really wide.
So it's that huge main list broken into different categories
so it looks like a dashboard. It's like all the
calls I need to make, all the personal things I
need to do on my computer, all the errands I
need to run, the things around my house, and the
reason it's grouped like that is because one night you
might feel like, Wow, I'm really burnt out from looking
at the screen, but I want to get some stuff
(06:22):
done around the house. Great, Now I have a huge
group of those all together, or I have some time
in the car I'm going to make all the phone
calls I need to make. Great, they're all grouped together.
But the bigger piece of the funnel is you're not
going to get to all those things that week, So
why look at them over and over and stress yourself
out knowing that they're not going to get to that week?
So you've narrow it down down the funnel, Now what
(06:44):
am I doing this week? And then that helps you
go even smaller, which is what am I doing this day?
And the absolute smallest piece is what am I doing
hour by hour? Because all kinds of studies show that
if you actually plan out, if you actually write nine
to ten, work out tomorrow, ten to eleven, work on
that presentation, you're way more likely to do it. So
it's the idea that your action items funneled down and
(07:06):
then once they're executed, they're done, they're out of the funnel.
And so it's just a system that keeps you mentally safe,
knowing that everything you have to do is captured and
it's moving its way down. If it gets stuck in
the funnel because you didn't get to it, it's back
on the other list and you'll see it again.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Can you tell me for you personally, Laura, what are
all the categories of list funnels that you have in
your life?
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, that's so Actually exactly what I have in the
book is what I use. You're gonna laugh because like
in the book, I had to put an example list,
and I truly truly went to my current main list
and wrote everything I had on there, so you'll tell
it was like the spring, because I'm like register for
summer camps, kindergarten, kindergarten deadline, to submit paperwork, buying new
(07:54):
bathing suits for our beach trip. Like it was exactly
what I currently was doing at that time. So I
I do have those categories, you know, things at work
on the computer, things in my personal life on the computer,
calls returns, I need to make things I need to buy,
and then I keep grocery completely separate because that's its
own whole buying process. And then one list I talk
(08:16):
about that I would say this is the single thing
I use the most in a day is my capture list.
And that's my list of every single thought that comes
to me, whether it's something I need to do, something
I forgot, something I need to buy. It all goes
on one list and I access that using my voice.
So I just say, hey, Google, add eggs to the
capture list. Hey Google, add email Brian to the capture list.
(08:39):
And then when I look at that during some of
those rituals like on Sunday or on Tuesday and Thursday,
I do it. But it's all those ideas that have
come to me in one place. So I use that,
I mean probably fifteen times a day, just everything that
I think of that I need to do.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Now tell me about saying no, because I know you
used to be really bad at these and how did
you become good at it.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
I actually had a mentor a manager, and he gave
me that feedback. He was in nice words, constructive words.
He was like, you're kind of a pushover, and it's
getting to you because I can tell that you're over committed,
and I can tell that you're doing things that even
you know you shouldn't do. I think the biggest piece
for me was saying no without coming off as abrasive
(09:24):
or keeping that social capital that you have with friends
and coworkers. And it's a really fine line. And I
was worried about becoming that person who says no to everything,
because that has its own negative effects. And so I
try to do like actual sentences that I've used that
have gone well for me. You know, like, Hey, as
much as I would love to do that speaking event,
(09:45):
I'm actually holding that week for some work that I
think you know is coming in and I would call
this one no, But here's a resource that I used
for a similar event, and it would be great for
you to use it. And then sometimes I'll even follow
back up and say, like, how did the event go?
So sorry, speak at it like, hope everything went great.
So it's important to find that balance. And I think
that was really hard for me, but it's good because
(10:07):
it gave me like years of material of what has
worked well for me to say no. And so all
of those tactics I listed in the book.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, I love the tactics that you listened in the book.
I personally found them very helpful, and like you, I
used to struggle so much with saying no, although now
I feel like I get a lot of practice and
saying no multiple multiple times a day, so I think
the more you practice, the easier it becomes true.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Definitely yes, And you probably feel that when someone says
no to you, you respect them for it, and especially
if they're kind about it, you think, like, wow, they're
really thoughtful about their priorities. For whatever reason, it doesn't
fit in like you may be disappointed, but I think
it's just knowing that if you say no to someone
and you explain to them in the right way, they're
they're going to see your side of it and you're
(10:55):
not ruining a relationship.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
I guess yeah, I reckon. One of the biggest things
things that has changed the way I say no is speed.
So I used to think that by saying a slow no,
like sitting on a request for a few days and
then saying no was the more respectful way to do it,
as if I'd given it a few days thought. But
I can't remember which guest it was on how I work,
(11:18):
But they talked about the power of a quick note
like you just like people don't want to be left hanging.
They want to move on. If the answer is no.
And so the biggest change I've made in my life
around knows is that I will say a very quick no,
and I will give contacts, I'll explain why. But I
found speed and I really love it when I get
quick nos back because I can just move on and
(11:38):
I don't have to waste time following up.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
So yeah, yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Now with saying no, I mean no is about setting boundaries.
And in your book Uptime, you also talk about downtime,
and I want to know, like, for you personally, how
do you set boundaries for yourself? Given you are someone
that loves what you do. Your passion comes across so clearly,
but also you've got a family their priority. How do
(12:03):
you think about boundaries?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I think the first piece of it is actually like
setting them. And so when I work with an exec,
I say, like, what are some of your working boundaries?
And a lot of times I can tell how it's going.
If they have no answer to that, it means they
haven't really sat down and said I do this, I
don't do this, And I think that that's a piece
that you really have to define. Google has a lot
of cool things built into our culture where it's like
(12:27):
I can communicate those whether it's in my signature or
a user manual about me and working with me. But
I think that actually saying in my head like I
do not email on the weekends and I don't check
email on the weekends, Like saying that is actually really
powerful because it even keeps me accountable, you know, for
saying that that's something I do. I tell people that,
(12:48):
and then I know that they're not going to expect
an email from me because I've communicated that I do that.
I think it's finding those routines, so even like putting
my phone away before meals and things like that so
I'm not tempted to check or work while I'm with
my family. So you know, it's easy to say, oh,
I don't do this, but then send emails on the weekend,
and it's like, no, you have to really keep that,
(13:09):
Like eighty twenty. If it's a boundary that you've set,
you want to really keep that up to see the
benefits of it, because if you're it's just words, you're
not going to see the value.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
I like the idea of putting your boundary in your
email signature. Can you tell me what that looks like
for you, how do you communicate boundaries? And what are
some of the examples that you've seen with fellow Googles
in terms of how they're communicating boundaries in the email signature.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yes, a lot of our executives have like a user manual.
They call it like a how to work with me doc,
and so that's the bigger way of saying, here's how
to work with me. So I have one of those
that basically says, these are the things that I prefer
send me an email before adding time to my calendar,
because I prefer to communicate their first. During the workday,
I'm usually in meetings or focused intentionally, so please don't
(13:55):
chat me unless it's something that has to do in
the next thirty minutes or so I don't check in
on the weekends. I do check email from seven am
to six pm or whatever that is, or I do
check email Monday through Friday. Just communicating even like a
preference like boundaries like an aggressive word, I think, but
even a preference like I prefer to be emailed versus chat.
(14:16):
I think I've seen that in people's signatures, and it
just kind of gives you that oh okay, like I
didn't know that about them, you know, or some people,
some executives are like, just sign up for my office
hours and don't put another email in my inbox, Like
that's what those are for. So I've seen execs with
that and they link to the office hours and it's
like there, I was going to send them another email,
but now I know, oh that I'll just schedule this slots.
(14:37):
A lot of it's just communicating. It's just gently guiding
people to work with you the way that you want
to work. And it can be powerful, whether it's just
one line under your name.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
There's something about your morning, Rachel, which I know you've
thought about a lot, which really stood out to me,
and you talk about it being a gift from past you.
Could you tell me about that concept?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, so I'd like that's the thing when we're trying
to plan for future us. I try to do something
for myself the night before. That's a gift for mourning me.
So it's something that mourning me is going to walk
down and think, oh, I'm so glad you know X.
And so, whether that's pre packing lunches, setting the coffee
machine on a timer, making sure the kitchen is clean,
(15:21):
picking out my clothes. I'm doing something to set myself
up in the morning because that morning is just such
another point of control. It's another one of those like
Sunday night things where it's like, if you can get
control of your morning, it really does affect your whole day.
So I know that by spending a few minutes doesn't
make it much of a difference if I go to
bed ten minutes later because I made lunches, But it
(15:41):
does make a big difference in the morning if I
feel that light feeling of wow, this is already done.
Now I have a little more time to do this
or whatever that is. So I try to do that
for myself, and even with my kids, I try to
help them do that. Pick out your outfit before Why
don't you go ahead and pack up your backpacke, You'll
be so happy you did that in the morning. And
so I think it's just a good have to learn overall.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
I'm going to talk to my daughter Frankie after this chat.
Although one hack that I do use at home as
of HEROD, and I heard about this strategy a few
years ago from this quite well known female entrepreneur. She's
got quite a lot of kids and she would talk
about how she would put her young children to bed
(16:22):
wearing their school uniform and at the time, I thought, well,
that's that's a bit much. That's interesting, but it's a
bit much. I now have adopted that hack. When it's
a sports uniform day, my daughter is leaving in her
T shirt and shorts because it just removes friction for
the next day and it is a massive gift to
the whole family's future. Exactly, it's a future all of us.
(16:49):
We will be back soon with Laura talking about the
biggest problems that executives at Google have in managing their time,
and the most common strategy is she gives them to help.
If you're looking for more tips to improve the way
you work and live, I write a weekly newsletter where
I share practical and simple to apply tips to improve
your life. You can sign up for that at Amantha
(17:13):
dot substack dot com. That's Amantha dot substack dot com. Now,
a lot of your time at Google is spent coaching executives,
and I feel like a lot of people would imagine
a senior executive Google just being a master of their
time and productivity. But I imagine, you know, maybe that's
(17:36):
not the case, And I would love to know what
are the biggest challenges that you observe these leaders having
in terms of how they're thinking about and using their time.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah, I get that question a lot, Like what are
execs dealing with? They have total control of their time,
you know, thinking that they have maybe an administrative professional
working with them. Isn't it easier? And it's kind of
funny because you know, no matter what your level is,
if you're entering the workplace or you were a very
senior exec with a global team of a lot of
the issues are the same. But figuring out the time
(18:07):
management piece, the energy management piece. One of the cool
things about my job is that a lot of these
execs are productive and it's like maybe they've totally mastered
one piece of it and I'm learning from them, and
then I'm able to share those practices as I go
to different coaching sessions and so that's really cool, And
especially I talked in the book about one executive that
(18:27):
really mastered urgent. You know, he had a lot of
urgent coming up. He figured out how to have a
slot every day for urgent. His whole team knew that
slot when something urgent comes up, they all cleared their
calendars knowing that's when he's going to meet with him,
like things like that, I didn't think of that, He
thought of that, And now I've shared that with so
many people, and so it's cool because you know, while
(18:47):
I am able to share ideas and go through these
exercises that help the whole team think and their chief
of staff, I also am able to share, Oh, I
just talked to so and so last week and they're
able to do this and that would work great for you,
and connect them and things like that. So that's fun.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
What are the most common strategies that you find yourself
giving to these executives? Are there any kind of common
solutions that you find yourself talking about a lot with them.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
I think one of the biggest things that I constantly
get the feedback about that makes a huge difference is
finding those power hours and really working to protect them.
And so the biggest thing is when I say, oh,
when do you do most of your heads down work
or when are you most focused? Maybe it's a West
Coast executive in the US, and they'll say, oh, you know,
(19:36):
the morning. I'm a morning person. I really like, I'm
so focused. I love the mornings. And then I'm like, well,
when are you doing most of your heads down work? Oh,
always in the afternoon or at night, because my schedule
is full of East Coast meetings because I woke up
late and that's when all my team wants to meet.
So that's such a small thing. But even saying let's
just block the morning for you, even one maybe two days,
(20:00):
and give you like two two to three hour blocks
that are solid. You know they're there. You don't have
any meetings come, you turn off your chat, you close
your email. You really get done what you need to
get done. And that can be so powerful. I've heard
over and over the executives say like, gosh, I just know,
I always know I have my Wednesday morning, you know,
(20:20):
and it's their natural time. Because for that same executive,
blocking nine to eleven is so different than blocking three
to five. It's so different. Their output is different, their
energy is different. And so I think that that's one
of the big tactics that I feel like I'm always
talking about and always getting good feedback later on.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Yeah, I remember I interviewed Mel Silva, who heads up
Googling Australia and New Zealand and she had thinking dice,
which I think from memory, she scheduled them about once
every six weeks, and she would plan for them. And
it's a longer version of what you're describing. They are.
What else do you recommend to these execs that you
find yourself just hearing consistently great feedback like this. This
(21:00):
has really changed the way that I work.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
It's funny that you say that, because definitely one of
the biggest things that I wouldn't say I do it.
I wouldn't give myself the credit. But giving that permission
to have blank space in your schedule, whether it's a
no meeting Friday, or it's a think day, or it's
a really long break for a lunch where you're just
kind of thinking or decompressing. I feel like a lot
of the times I'm just kind of saying, oh, even
(21:25):
an exact higher up than you spends one day coding,
like you can do that too, or whatever it is.
So I feel like that idea of just like white
space in your schedule equals white space in your head
equals new ideas, big picture vision. So that's certainly a
piece of it. And then I would say the next
piece of it is just again getting like aggressive about
the schedules. I'm that person who's looking at each meeting
(21:48):
with them saying, do you really need thirty minutes here?
Or could we do fifteen minutes? Could we group these
three meetings together anywhere? Low hanging fruit on the schedule.
And it seems so small cutting meetings down fifty minutes,
But if you do that to ten meetings over the
course of a couple of weeks, it's like now you're
all of a sudden feeling like, Wow, I have more
time here, more time here. That's definitely something that when
(22:10):
I circle back, when I do my check back ins,
that's always like, oh, I feel like I have so
much time. I'm like with a magnifying glass on their schedule,
like why is this here? Have you always been in that?
Would you sign up for this tomorrow? Or have you
just always done it? So that's my job.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I love that, and that's such a great question, like
would you sign up for this tomorrow? I want to
switch gears and talk about downtime, the opposite of up time.
How do you think about downtime in your own life?
Speaker 2 (22:38):
That's funny you said the opposite, because I think that's
what we think the opposite, but in the book I
talk about how it's they go hand in hand, they're necessary.
So one example I always give is, you know, I
love my stationary bike. I normally do a forty five
minute just regular ride, regular class, but my highest score
is from a thirty minute interval class. If someone was
watching that, they would think, Wow, she got off the
(22:59):
bike fifteen minutes earlier, lazy, not working as hard, and
she took a ton of breaks. No, because of those breaks,
I was able to work harder in the sprints and
finish earlier. So that's kind of the point of downtime
is that people think like taking that hour for myself,
taking that vacation, like overall, I'm not working as hard. No,
(23:21):
that is actually what's fueling you to work hard. And
so in my own life, my husband and I like
five years ago, we started doing no tech Tuesday night.
But it was just my way of saying like, Okay,
I'm not going to go extreme and say like I'm
never looking at my phone or you know whatever, but
one night a week, from dinner until the next morning,
we can do something other than TV and technology. Could
(23:41):
be board games, just sitting and talking, sit outside and
we ended up loving it so much. I started this
challenge at Google and it's great and people feel the
digital detox. But the biggest piece of it is when
they say how they feel on Wednesday. And that's the
craziest part, Like I'm so much more productive on Wednesday.
I could not solve this problem, and I didn't want
(24:01):
to do no Tech Tuesday because I wanted to keep
heads down. But I let myself do it, and I
came up with the best answer when I woke up
on Wednesday morning. So those little routines of like I
put my phone down here, I always make time for
a workout when I'm on vacation, I do not check email,
I take my weekends. I come up with my best
ideas when I'm on a walk, not when I'm in
(24:21):
my ninth meeting. And so by prioritizing those times, I'm
actually a better long term employee. And so I think
that managers should prioritize downtime for their own teams and
reward that.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
I love what you say about no Tech Tuesday and
the no Tech Tuesday challengeing up time. I was curious
why Tuesday, and also I would love feto explain more
around the rules of what is a no Tech Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, I chose Tuesday mostly because Monday felt like I'm
still like starting the week, and one of my favorite
TV shows is on Monday, honestly, so I was like,
I don't know that I want to not watch that,
and Tuesday just has that rink to it. It's memorable.
A lot of people is like, oh, Tuesday's kind of
like a down night. You know, it's not in the
first day of the week, and you know I'm not
piled in work yet, and so I was like, let's
(25:11):
just do that, and then it's stuck. And the rules
are basically you pick a time and from that point
until the following morning. And I even do the wake
Up Wednesday Bonus challenge, which is if you can go
thirty minutes after you wake up you don't touch technology.
But the point is just like breaking that habit and
(25:31):
realizing that you probably look at your phone for a
lot of things you don't need. You probably do enjoy
some hobby that you just don't do because you have
access to your computer, and nothing needs to be extreme. Obviously,
technology has its place in our life, but so does
learning how to set it down, and so I think
it's just like a one of those small habits, small
routines that can just be eye opening. And I love
(25:54):
watching the comments pour in because it's a six week
challenge and the first week it'll be like, this was
so hard. I actually astounded how many times I went
to pick up my phone and didn't have it. I
kind of felt anxious, I kind of felt lonely, you know,
like all these things, and then it's like now, actually,
right as we're speaking, we're in the fifth week, and
I just read through them and it's like, I'm loving
this more and more. I added a second night. I
(26:16):
have people post pictures of what they accomplished, and it's
like knitting, iron beats painting. I learned a new recipe
and I actually had my grandma's handwriting instead of looking
up online. Just really cool ways of using your time,
you know. So that's how it all started.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Love that. I want to talk about generative AI. I
am sure that as a productivity expert you're using it
a lot, and particularly a productivity expert within Google, I'm
definitely using it a lot in my work. I want
to know how are you using it day to day?
Where has it changed workflows or how you're approaching different
(26:52):
kinds of.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Tasks when you think of it, like any tool, my
biggest rule on tools is like you've got to learn
the power of it, And for AI, I think that's
just like even bigger that can be from learn the
keyboard shortcuts in your email program to like learn how
AI can start that entire project for you. And so
one of the things that I really push is just
(27:14):
kind of like spending time watching some videos looking at prompts,
you know, even if it's like thirty minutes saying like
what's the coolest thing that Gemini can do in Google workspace?
Like I'm going to look that up and then see
people using it in Google sheets and say, wow, that's
so cool. I haven't thought of that. So I think
that that's the biggest piece is like getting ahead of
it and understanding what it can do. I always just
(27:36):
think in my head, how can I start with AI?
You know, anytime I sit down when I look at
my to do list, sometimes I just kind of scan,
like is there anything on here that I could just
source out? Because that's giving me more time for higher
value tasks. So any template I'm writing, looking for creative images.
When I'm doing a training that represents something kicking off
(27:56):
something with an email, looking at text and saying, God,
this really needs to be like half the word count
that it is, I'm going to ask it to narrow
that down for me, and just always using it as
like a starting point of what can AI do for
me so that I can be more strategic with my time?
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Are there certain tasks that you do as part of
your role that you have found JENII is just not
good for I'm always interested in, like what are the
categories of things where we should use GENI to augment
what we do and where does it really need the
human thought?
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, I think anything that feels analytical from your perspective.
So like that example of like the calendar analysis, I've
really been thinking in my head, like so AI could
basically tell me like what meetings I'm in and what
time I'm spending them, But they're not going to be able.
It's not going to be able to say do you
really need thirty minutes with John or could you do fifteen?
(28:55):
It's really combing through making those personal decisions. You can't
source that out, but if you can pull the information
with the help of a tool and then look at
it instead of you having to pull that information yourself.
You're getting the most out of AI at this point.
Now that being said, who knows where we'll be in
even a year. There could be some pattern learning where
(29:17):
it says, hey, we noticed that you started taking meetings
this time, and we notice that on Wednesday all your
meetings tend to go late. You know, should you that
kind of thing? So I'm just excited to see where
that goes because we don't know yet how it will
play into our lives and our workflow as it starts.
To learn things like.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
That, I'd love to finish by asking you around, like,
with all the training and coaching that you've done over
the years, what are the tips that you hear from
people that have been their favorite, like the stickiest ones,
the ones that have had the most tampedled. What are
the things that people just keep coming back to you
(29:56):
and going, Laura, this has been a game changer's.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Funny well, as you know because it was in your book.
I think the thinking of email like laundry. That is
something that like ten years after people have come take
my course, they come back to me and say, like
I cannot get that out of my head. It changed
my life. You know, funny things like that where they're like,
I sleep better because of this email training. I'm like,
it's an email training, but you know whatever. It kind
of gives them that mental clarity around email, which is
(30:22):
such a big personal thing for us.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
So, for those that haven't heard, your email is laundry,
and could you just like briefly expriabing that because I
love it.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yes, we do our laundry, and we would never open
the dryer and pick out one shirt full of that shirt,
walk it all the way up, put in the drawer,
pair of pants comes out, it's kind of wet. Should
we throw it back in the dryer? I found this sock.
I don't feel like finding the other stock, so I'll
just put one sock away. And I'm just going to
constantly open my dryer door fifteen times a day and
(30:52):
remind myself I don't have time to do it all.
I haven't done it, and I have no idea where
my pink shirt is. That sounds so stressful when we're
talking about laundry. So when we're talking about email, you're
doing the same thing. When you mark something as on red.
That's throwing what pants back in, you know, finding one
email and responding to it and then going back to
read another email. That's just folding one shirt. So instead,
(31:15):
what we should do is take everything out aka dryer
zero inbox zero, put it into laundry basket. Things I
need to fold, things I need to hang, things I
need to read, and then we do them all at
once as much as possible. So full, fold, fuld, fold, fold.
I'm carrying this whole pile of shirts up one time.
So read, read, read, read, read or respond respond, respond,
(31:35):
matching it with our energy because I'm so happy when
I don't waste really good power hours on reading industry news.
It's like, that's a great thing to do. When a
meeting ends ten minutes early. I think it's just like
a mindset shift. That's like, why am I doing my
email this way? It's really inefficient. So, you know, that's
one that definitely sticks with people.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
I think, what else what else steaks?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yeah, one that people really like is like the choosing
hot spots and not spots. Date dependency research tells us
that we take in all this information when we're working
or when we're doing anything anywhere. So you know, our
brain kind of knows the site smells, sounds of everything,
and so if we use that to our advantage, we
start doing certain tasks at certain places. So that could
(32:20):
mean like something's in the office, something's at home, or
like I always send email from this one chair in
my office, I always code from the cafe. It teaches
your brain to say, like, when I'm here, I do this.
When I'm here, I do this, and then you easily
slip into that pattern when you're in those places. So
people really like that one. And then the idea of
a not spot like places that you never work, you
(32:42):
never think about work because your brain is safe there
and your brain never has stressed. Or you know, you
keep your car canute sacred or whatever that is. So
those are some of the big big bites that people
always come back for.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Laura, I just love chats. This is the third time
you've been on How I Work. And I've got to say,
when I found out that you were writing a book,
I think maybe a year or two ago, when you
first mentioned it, I was just so excited. You are
just such a wealth of knowledge, but importantly, you make
it so simple and practical for people to apply so
thank you so much for coming back on How I
(33:17):
Work again. It's always such a joy. Thank you, Laura, Yes,
thanks for having me. I hope you like this chat
with Laura May Martin, and if you did, you should
definitely grab a copy of her book Up Time. I
get sat so many books about time management and productivity,
and this is one of the best I've read in years.
(33:38):
It is such a practical and balanced approach to thinking
about how we use our time. If you enjoyed today's episode,
I would love to ask a favor. Click follow on
the podcast app that you're listening to this on, and
if you're feeling really generous, leave a review for the show.
Following this podcast and leaving reviews helps How I Work
(33:59):
find new listeners, and your support is one of the
things that makes this podcast possible. Thank you for sharing
part of your day with me by listening to How
I Work. If you're keen for more tips on how
to work better, connect with me via LinkedIn or Instagram.
I'm very easy to find. Just search for Amantha Imba.
(34:21):
How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of
the Warrenery people, part of the Cool and Nation. I
am so grateful for being able to work and live
on this beautiful land, and I want to pay my
respects to Elder's past, present and emerging. How I Work
is produced by me Amantha Imba. The episode producer was
(34:43):
Rowena Murray. And thank you to Martin Imba who does
the audio mix for every episode and makes everything sound
better than it would have otherwise
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