January 7, 2026 • 35 mins
**BEST OF**
Do you find yourself constantly trying to ensure people like you? Bending over backwards to avoid giving bad news or make someone unhappy?
What if the extra reassurance, and the fear of being too direct are actually causing more harm than good?
To dive into this topic, we’re joined by Laura Henshaw to talk about how she realised her need to be liked was affecting those working under her.
Laura Henshaw is a dynamic force in the health and wellness industry. As the co-founder and CEO of the incredibly successful KIC app and community, she leads a mission to reshape how people perceive wellness and their relationship with themselves.
And they are certainly having an impact, with the KIC app currently sitting at over 2.5 million users and reaching people in over 120 countries.
Outside of business, Laura co-hosts the chart topping Kicpod podcast, where she engages in candid conversations on health, wellness, and personal growth. She also shares her insights through a monthly column in Vogue.
Laura shares:
- The ways your people-pleasing could be holding you back.
- Why giving feedback as a "shit sandwich" doesn’t actually work.
- How she changed her people-pleasing behaviour.
- Why you’ll never succeed at getting everyone to like your decisions.
- The one thing you should prioritise over kindness when giving feedback.
Key Quotes:
“How hard I work has nothing to do with how worthy I am as a person.”
“Most decisions you make there is going to be someone that’s not going to like the decision.”
Connect with Laura on Instagram, subscribe to KIC APP and follow KIC Pod
My latest book The Health Habit is out now. You can order a copy here: https://www.amantha.com/the-health-habit/
Connect with me on the socials: Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amanthaimber)
Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/amanthai)
If you are looking for more tips to improve the way you work and live, I write a weekly newsletter where I share practical and simple to apply tips to improve your life. You can sign up for that at https://amantha-imber.ck.page/subscribe
Visit https://www.amantha.com/podcast for full show notes from all episodes.
Get in touch at amantha@inventium.com.au
Credits:
Host: Amantha Imber
Sound Engineer: The Podcast Butler
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How I work is having a little break over the
festive season, so I have handpicked a few of my
absolute favorite episodes from the last year to play for
you in this best of series. I hope you enjoy
and I will be back with new episodes twice weekly
from January twenty nine. Do you find yourself constantly trying
(00:21):
to ensure that people like you, maybe bending over backwards
to avoid giving bad news or make someone unhappy. But
what if the extra reassurance and the fear of being
too direct actually causing you more harm than good. Many
of us battle with some degree of people pleasing in
our personalities, and the negative consequences can appear both in
(00:45):
our personal and professional lives. To dive into this topic,
we are joined by Laura Henshaw to talk about how
she realized that her need to be liked was affecting
those working under her. Laura Henshaw is a dynamic force
in the health and wellness industry. As the co founder
(01:06):
and CEO of the incredibly successful kick app and community.
She leads a mission to reshape how people perceive wellness
and their relationship with themselves, and Laura is having a
massive impact with the kick app. Currently sitting at over
two point five million users and reaching people in over
one hundred and twenty countries. In this episode, we discuss
(01:30):
the ways that your people pleasing could be holding you back,
How Laura changed her people pleasing behavior, and how she
broke her destructive habit of reading comments from all the trolls.
Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals,
(01:53):
and strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor
Amantha Imber. In addition to her credible success, Laura is
a self confessed people pleaser, but she's done the work
to improve in that area. In fact, she did that
work with her coach, Jennie Martino, who helped her realize
(02:14):
how her need to be liked was affecting her work.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
The biggest thing that comes to mind is when I
met Janie. One of the biggest things holding me back
in when I say reaching my full potential as a leader.
I feel like we're always learning and growing, right, So
I'm definitely not there yet, and I hope I never
get there, because you want to keep growing and evolving.
But something that was holding me back a lot was
how much I cared about what people think or thought
(02:44):
and also my need to be liked by every single person,
when you need to be liked by everyone that you're leading,
if that's kind of something that and I didn't consciously
put it as a KPI, but subconsciously that was number
one before everything else, which isn't the best for anyone
(03:04):
at all, because then you're leading a lot of the
time in fear because you don't want to let anyone down.
You want people to like you, so giving feedback is
incredibly difficult. Feedback is obviously incredibly important for people growing
in their career, al so in being clear and where
you actually want the business to go and taking control
of it and executing the vision, the strategy, etc. But
(03:28):
I was so stuck in thinking that that mattered. And
I think for me, I have a lot of people
pleasing tendencies and I don't want to say that all
women do not have that, and that's great, And I
don't want anyone listening to think that, oh, because I'm
a woman, I must be a people pleaser, because I
don't think that's the case at all. But I think,
unfortunately maybe in gender stereotypical roles where more of the
(03:49):
care is or expected to be, etc. And so sometimes
it does come up, and so my people pleasing tendencies
really leaned into that need to be liked, and so
I've had to undo a lot of that, which Janey
helped me work through, and I have just like the
way that I'm able to lead now in comparison, when
I look back at that person, I'm like, oh, my goodness,
(04:11):
it's crazy. Like I do identify still with with myself
of you know, three or whatever years ago, two years ago,
but I just feel so different, like I've been let
free in being able to let that go.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
I feel like you've just described my twenty twenty four.
I want to know for you, though, Laura, if you
think back over the last three years and this big
shift that you've made, what are some of those practical
things that you did, all those mindset shifts that you
had to make that had the biggest difference.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Oh, it's such a good question, and it's great that
you've also been on the journey because I think a
lot of people have and will relate to this. For me,
and one of the questions Janie asked me was, and
we work through this in one of my I think
it was almost my first session with Jane, which was
why do you want to be liked? Like, why is
that important? And is that actually what is important to you?
(05:02):
And what we came out to is not, I don't.
It's not really about being liked per se, but it's
about being respected. And I think that was kind of
rooted in a lot of stuff for me. I know
we might touch today on imposter syndrome and kind of
being a young female leader. Also because of where my
career started was with social or part of it was
(05:23):
social media, and so for a very long time I
felt that I wasn't taken seriously. Well I wasn't. Actually,
I can It's not just what I thought. I was
not taken seriously by a lot of people that I
worked with.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
How did you know for sure?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Well, I mean there were times when I was in
rooms with people that I worked with that would describe
so often Steph and I as the marketing girls, and
it's like, no, we built this brand, we run this business, etc.
There's been multiple occasions where that has happened in different ways,
and I think at that time, I felt like I
just had to prove myself and I think because of
(06:00):
that kind of I've definitely worked through that and now
I know that like, that's on them. I don't have
to prove myself to anyone. But that definitely was a
big cause of why I then felt that I had
to kind of lead that way. And so for me,
it was kind of thinking about, Okay, I need to
be respected, that's what's important, and then it's unpacking Okay,
(06:21):
how do you get respect with your team? How do
you get respect with the people around you by being
a good leader and knowing that you can still lead
with empathy, because that's very, very very important to me.
But I think it was also the realization that it
is impossible to be liked by everyone because no matter what,
like I know that, you know, in running a business,
you and everyone that's listening that does most decisions you make,
(06:44):
there is going to be someone that's not going to
like the decision. It's very very rare we make decisions
where everyone agrees on it and is going to like
the outcome, right, especially when you're running a business. And
so it was also that realization that I was, well,
I'm setting myself up to fail because I can't actually
achieve this and I'm not driving the business, and in
my role as CEO of if I'm not driving the
(07:05):
business forward, then I shouldn't be in the role.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
How then, because I feel like one of the hardest
areas where this plays out is when you have to
have those tough conversations. And I mean I hate calling
them tough conversations. I try to think of them as
important conversations, as opposed to difficult conversations because it changes
the mindset. But they're hard. If you've got a high
need to be liked and you are delivering news that
(07:32):
someone else is going to find tough or confronting or
hard to take on board. How did you change your
approach to those kinds of conversations.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
I think realizing that in going in to be liked.
So there was one instance I remember I delivered something
to the team and Janie was there and she said,
because I had always thought like I have to do
a like a sandwich, I think this is something I
don't actually sandwich. I don't agree that I should be.
I don't think it's the best way to approachings, but
I used to. And the feedback I got was it
(08:03):
was almost like I made a sandwich, but it was
like with the thinnest slice of ham in the middle,
which is what I had to deliver, And then it
had like a hundred pieces of bread on both sides,
so no one got the message. No one's tasty because
I put so much stuff around it in the fear
that of the thing I was delivering. What that then
(08:24):
means is, I think, when you're delivering out of a
place of fear, if you don't believe in what you're
saying or feel that it's fair or whatever it might be,
how the heck is your team going to find it
also fair and believe in it back. So that's number
one thing. But what I then was able to navigate
through time was realizing the biggest I think one of
the biggest realizations for me was feedback is a kindness.
(08:46):
Being clear is kind That's the biggest thing. And there's
a book I can't remember the name of it. I
will find it once I finished this pod and I
can send it through to put in the show notes.
But it's fantastic And at the start of it there's
a chapter around an employee that never gets feedback. They're
the really likable person in the office. They contribute to culture.
Radical candor yes, radical canduct yes, yeah, who's the author?
(09:09):
Is it Kim Scott? Yes, Kim Scott, radical candor. That
first chapter made I recommend anyone that is struggling with
this right now to read that. It made such a
big impact for me because this person in this book
wasn't giving any given any feedback because everyone was trying
to avoid it because they liked them and they thought
that would be best for them. And then when they
were let go and they said, why didn't anyone tell me?
(09:30):
It's like stepping back and actually thinking about that, why
didn't anyone tell you? Because they were trying to protect you?
But in trying to protect you and be likable, you know,
to them, you then set them up to fail in
their role. And if people are coming to work with you,
I think I always feel like Kick, we're so lucky
to have the team that we have, and for people
to take time within their career path at KICK, you know,
(09:53):
and for us to be part of their journey is
a really special thing, and it's very important that we offer,
you know, career growth and development for those people. But
if we're not giving feedback on how they can improve
or being clear with our expectations, that's not the best
for them, and it's also not the best for the business.
And that's where another really really big lesson from Janey
(10:13):
has come in on communication and the power of being
clear and that you can do that with empathy. And
that's been a huge, huge lesson for me as well.
And you just as I said, like that sandwich with
the hundred slices of bread on each side, it doesn't
help anyone. And you just say, it is hard. You
walk into the room, you know you're having a hard conversation.
(10:35):
You just need to start it. Once you're in the conversation,
it's absolutely fine. It's kind of just that start part
where you fee uncomfortable, but you're also assuming what the
other person is going to do or how they're going
to react. You don't know. And so I think we
need to also give people the benefit of the doubt
in that situation that though they might be aligned with
this or they might take this on board, it's also
their choice if they take it on board or not, right,
(10:57):
but it is as leaders it is our responsibility to
share that with them.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
I want to ask in terms of this need to
be liked and how you've kind of shifted that into
you know, it's a need to be respected, I'm reminded of.
I thought it was such a powerful interview that you
gave on the Imperfect, So I want to say that
was late twenty twenty three maybe, And during that interview
you spoke about how you read the comments online, all
(11:24):
of them, and Steph, your business partner and best friend,
doesn't and I remember being really surprised but curious. Has
your behavior changed in light of, I guess, trying to
manage your people pleasing ways? Or do you still do that? Oh?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Great question. I'm very proud to say that I don't
do that anymore.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
How did you stop?
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I mean, I working through all of this, and I
suppose it's kind of separate to my leadership journey per se,
but it'll write it. It all comes together and links in.
I tried to and have been on a journey to
stop caring about what people think. And Brene Brown talks
about this a lot, and it's one of my favorite
pieces of work that she has done when she talks
(12:06):
about people in the arena and if someone is not
in the arena with you, getting their butt kicked like
their opinion. I've definitely butchered this. But Essentially, it's like
their opinion doesn't matter because they're up sitting just watching
and observing. And I think what I was doing was
thinking that. For me, it comes down to growing up.
Something that I valued myself on a lot was being
(12:28):
a hard worker. And so that's something that I'm trying
to undo as an adult now because I think often
what I do is I hide behind the fact that
I work hard because then I don't have to think about, well,
hang on, what value do I add here? It's like, well,
I'm a hard worker. That's the value that I add.
But if I strip that back and I don't do that,
which can lead to burnout and you can't work, you know,
(12:51):
sixteen hours a day for the rest of your life
every single day. It's too much, you know, ebbs and flows,
and sometimes I'll be busy weeks and less busy weeks.
But I have had to rip that back, and I
think a part of that was there's a book called Burnout.
It's fantastic. There's one page that's about the whip and
I just I just related to it so much when
(13:11):
I read it, and essentially what they talk about is
and it's mainly aimed at women this book. For a
lot of people, we feel that we have to seek
out this like I was these trolling comments because the
reason I was seeking them out is because I feel
like I have to continue working hard, I have to
continue improving. And so if I would read it, it
was almost this fuel of the fire of Okay, I'm
(13:32):
not good enough yet. I have to keep in the book.
The way they talk about it is it's a whip.
I have to keep whipping myself because then if you
pull back and what they talk about in the book
and you look at where you've what you've built, or
how you in your career, where you've got to, and
you know with what we've built with Kick, I look
back and I think, Okay, the reason I have got
here is because of the whip. So if I put
(13:53):
the whip down and I stop fueling myself through all
of these kind of horrible trolling comments online, constantly trying
to be better and better and better, I won't have
any drive, and therefore I won't be able to continue
to grow. Then it's been working through like that is
not the reason that I have got to where I
am today and unpacking that, but it has been really,
(14:15):
really hard to do that, and it also depends, like
I feel like our confidence ebbs and flows, and I
know when you think of like the most kind of
corny Pinterest quote, it's like confidence is not a destination.
It's a journey. I know, and I can see like
the clouds around it. But it's true, right, you can
never ever, ever stop working on yourself. And so sometimes
I will go through stages where I feel tempted to
(14:36):
go and look at those comments and take them on board.
But I have done a lot of work on myself
to now have so many tools to not go and
do that and know that how hard I work has
nothing to do with how worthy I am as a
person and that I'm you know, capable of deserving of things.
(14:57):
That's been really hard to work through, but that has
been so important and in truly believing like within myself
to be able to kind of get through that stuff.
And I definitely still have self doubt, but it does
not control me like it used to.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Like that sounds absolutely phenomenal what you've done, Laura. That
is such a huge change to achieve. I don't know you,
but I feel proud, you.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Know, thank you. It's very kind.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
How then, do you know when enough is enough? At work?
I mean, you know, you're like this amazing mascot for
well being. You know, that's that's who you are, that's
what Kick is. Yet you're a business owner, you're a CEO,
you do obviously have an amazing work ethic, and you've
got friends and family. How do you know then when
(15:42):
enough is enough on a day to day or week
to week basis.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Well, I have to start by saying sometimes I don't
and this is something I'm absolutely working through. So I
do not have this down pattern perfect. But for me,
what I have learned is when I don't stop and
I don't have anything outside of work, first of all,
like the impact that that then puts me back in
a fear driven mindset because one hundred and ten percent
of my focus is on work, and so my full
(16:07):
fulfillment in my life is based on what happens, you know,
with Kick and running a business, Like the one thing
that is guaranteed is that stuff's going to go wrong.
Like that's the one thing. There's something else is guaranteed.
There's gonna be things that you're going to come up
against that you maybe have never solved before or are
really really going to challenge you like that is guaranteed
right as we know in anyone that's a business owner
will also know that. And so because of that, if
(16:30):
I have all of my eggs in the basket of work,
I am then operating knowing that I have to keep
going and going and going because this is the only
way I'm going to get fulfilment. And if something goes wrong,
controlling your emotional reaction within yourself and they're not going
down a path of for me really getting deep in
that self doubt mindset, but also a shame mindset in
(16:52):
that you know something might go wrong not go the
way that I wanted it to. I now am much
better at reframing into you know, this didn't go the
way I wanted it to. Here's my learnings. I'm moving
on instead of saying I am stupid, or I am dumb,
or I'm not good enough. Because what happens when you're
in that mindset or I have found, is that it
is so hard to get out of it. And once
(17:14):
you spiral it might start in one element of your
work or your job, it will spread into every element
of your life unless you and your work, and then
it will start to spread out psyche cancer unless you
take control of it. And so for me, I know
that if I have all of my eggs in the
basket of work and I work every single day and
don't take any breaks, that's kind of where I will
(17:35):
be end up. And that's not the best thing for me,
for the company, for anyone that I work with, because sometimes,
like you know, back, this has not happened for a
long time, but I've had spirals that have lasted like
six seven months, and that is so much time to
lose because when you don't believe in yourself and you're
trying to move a company forward, it's very, very, very difficult.
(17:56):
And so that's been one of the biggest things. And
then the other thing is is understand So having things
outside of work is very important, but then understanding as well.
If I push push, push, I'm not going to be
able to show up as my best self the next day.
My brain doesn't work as well. I get brain fog.
I find it really hard to focus on deep work.
I find it really hard to actually step back and
(18:17):
actually work out what am I working on that's impactful,
because you get so stuck in the weeds and just
on this kind of wheel of got to keep going,
got to keep going, and then you're actually again not
making impact. That's what's important, right, and so it's stepping
back and being able to do that. But it's definitely
something like, as I say this, I don't always get
(18:38):
it right.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
When you recognize that you're in a spiral. What has
worked for you in the past in terms of breaking
out of that, either quickly or slowly.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I think it's understanding shame has been one of the
biggest things Brene Brown. I reference her so much. She's
just incredible. Her work is for me personally, has made
such an impact. She has a book. It's got a
red cover. It's essentially all about different emotions and the
definitions Atlas of the heart, so you know all of them.
Amazing at of that. I highly recommend that book to
(19:10):
anyone that's listening because the way she defines and kind
of speaks through shame really help me understand what it is.
And I think when you understand what it is, it
is easier to call it out when it's happening. And
so what I sometimes I don't do this, but what
I try to do and what I find really works
is trying to step out from the situation and separate
(19:33):
from myself, like the way I'm talking to myself that
I'm not good enough, because I know how it feels.
And when I start feeling that way, I'm like, Okay,
hang on, I need to look like what's going on
in my brain, what's going on in my mind? And
I'm able to take those thoughts and almost like visualize
separating them from myself and then identifying that, Okay, I
have not all of a sudden lost my entire brain
(19:54):
capacity forgotten how to do my job and have just become,
you know, not be able to do anything that has
not happened. Now, while that's what I'm telling myself in
my head that has not happened, this is actually shame
and I need to get out of this, and then
I will reframe it away from you know, I am
not good enough to This didn't go the way that
I wanted. Here's my learnings. I'm going to move forward.
(20:16):
As I said, it's easier said than done, and sometimes
it does take a few days to be able to
kind of separate that. But it's coming back to focusing
on the present, because when you're doing that, you're just
caught up in you know, what's happened in the past,
and you're making stories up in your head, trying to
come back and cent to yourself and come back to
the present and taking those thoughts out from that and
(20:37):
working through them.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
How do you know when you're in a spiral? Like
can you think of a time when I don't know
you were last in it, or when it was particularly
hard to get out of?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
How do you know how it feels in my body?
I feel my chest is tight, I feel sad, and
I feel like really demotivated and maybe not depressed per se,
but just really down. And I know that that's not
how I usually feel, Like our body tells us. We know,
like how you feel is everything, And that's something that
(21:07):
in terms of going back to the advice that Jennie
has shared for me and what I've learned the most
from her, like that's one of the biggest things, is
going back to how do you feel? Like it's one
of the questions that comes up out of almost anything
that you're kind of working through, and so I know
what that feeling is and I can identify that, and
then it's yet working out how to get out of it.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
You spoke about not having all the balls in the
one basket, in the work basket. What actions do you
take where you feel like it is leaning that way, Like,
what are the steps that you've taken in the past
to be more balanced and I guess reduce the chance
of burnout and being in one of these virals.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
At first, it's acknowledging that all of my eggs are
in the work basket, which I mean again, for anyone listening,
it's pretty hard to do that, and especially when sometimes
I think we get in this almost marta mindset of
I have to all my eggs have to be in
this basket? Do they? Why are you just telling yourself
that probably that's usually what the answer is, but I
think will have to do this, well, why do you?
(22:07):
Probably not, You're just in this spiral, And so I
kind of step back and I look at, Okay, what
And especially for me as well, like one of my
kind of hobbies per se is running, but running is
also a big part of my work and making content,
and so I've had to also be quite honest with
myself because sometimes I'm like, oh, no, I've got my running,
but it's like, well, no, running is also technically a
(22:29):
part of my work, because you know, we've got the
Kick Growing program and Kick and all the content that
I create out of that. So I step back and
I think, Okay, well what am I doing outside of
work to fill my cut back up? And one of
the things I often find will kind of go off
and I don't know if this is the same for you,
that I will kind of first just put in the
bin per se is social time, because I think I
(22:51):
don't have time to do that. And you also, sometimes
when you feel exhausted, maybe because of work or whatever,
it might be the last thing you want to do
is go out for dinner or go and speak to
more people because you just want to be by yourself.
But you actually need to get out and do that.
And for me, it's been really really acknowledging that that
social time that fills my cup like that is recharging,
(23:13):
even though it's with people and solo time is very important,
but connection is also a way to fill like up
that sometimes I think when we get caught up in
our own heads, we just put it off and cancel
it because we don't think that we can show up.
But that's actually what helps well for me recharge my batteries.
So it's looking at, Okay, what am I doing, and
it's what am I spending time on?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
It.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Something that I always love to think about when it
comes to hobbies or just things that can take my
mind off just the grind of the day, is what
have I done lately? Where I didn't look at the time,
and time just passed by and I didn't even realize,
and I wasn't thinking about like, oh I need to
be productive after this, or you know, I'm only going
to do this for an hour. I didn't even notice
(23:54):
and the day passed. I mean, I don't do a
lot of it, but when I've done pottery before, that's
something that happens. When I spend time with kids, like often,
that's also what happens painting and reading, and so I
try to get those things back in my life. But
it's important to acknowledge as well that sometimes there are
periods where work will take a lot from you. And
(24:15):
it's accepting that and honoring that, because I think when
we try and fight it, it can just make it worse.
But just trying to make sure we're really honest with
ourselves if we say I don't have time to do
anything for myself. It's really asking like why and if
you can trying to do something, otherwise you won't show
up one hundred percent when you get to work. Anyway,
(24:36):
we will.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Be back with Laura soon, and when we return, Laura
shares the rituals and habits that keep her from overloading
on work, why it's crucial to avoid responding from an
emotional state, and her top tip for starting the week
strong to ensure you actually get things done. If you're
(24:57):
looking for more tips to improve the way you I
can live. I write a short weekly newsletter that contains
tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You can
sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha
dot com. I am curious as to how then you
(25:20):
stay disciplined with making sure that you do have time
for these other non work activities, because I think you know,
and I say this as someone who I think could
do with working less hours. It's kind of it's easy
to say and it's easy to know, but then it's
hard to do. And so I can share with you
something that I have found quite useful because I agree
with social connection, it's such an energizer. And I've got
(25:44):
my family. I've got my beautiful daughter, a beautiful partner,
and they're amazing friends that are so important. I'm an only child,
and so my friends are like family. And I have
a little ritual that I generally do it on Mondays
where I will just send a bunch of messages to
my friends and get social catch ups in the diary.
And I know that if I've got at least one
(26:04):
or two friend catch ups that might be a walk,
or it might be a meal or something else, then
that's a good week. I'm feeling my social cup for you, Like,
do you have any rituals or kind of little hacks
like that that almost keep you honest away from just
overloading on work.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Oh, that's such a good thing to do, especially at
the start of the week. I think for me, it's
scheduling in at the start of the week. Like that's
the biggest hack that we can do for ourselves, because
if you don't, you never set yourself up for success,
because then you don't have any boundaries kind of in
your day. You haven't set your routine up, and then
you will every time. I mean, it's the same thing
with moving your body right. If you don't prepare, if
(26:45):
you wake up in the morning and you don't know
what workout you're going to do, you haven't got your
clothes out, you haven't really allowed yourself enough time, and
you haven't thought through it and planned. It is so
easy to be like, oh it's too hard, I'm just
going to keep sleeping, or I'm just going to hit
to work early, or whatever might be. And it's the
same thing right with everything with planning. So for me
with movement, it's making sure I've worked out where that's
(27:08):
going to fit in my week, because if I haven't
the week, we'll just override it. And doing that at
the start of the week. And then also the social thing.
I try and make sure I have one kind of
social connection thing during the week and then one on
the weekend as well. And it's making the effort to
put that in right and sometimes I know and I can. Again,
it comes back to how I feel in my body,
(27:28):
Like when I start feeling down and tired and that
feeling like close to burnout, I look at a hang on.
If I look back at the past month or whatever,
I haven't done the things that I know can help
me work through this, so I don't always do it,
but that's a really good hack.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I want to pick up on what you said before
about Sydney, where you have to go to Sydney. No,
you get to go to Sydney. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Oh, I mean that's perspective? Is everything right? And I
think when we get caught up in the busyness of
like how many times do you ask someone how they're
going and they say busy? And I really try not
to do that because I like focusing on perspective and
then coming back to gratitude. When I focus on gratitude,
(28:13):
I'm able to be so much more present, and I'm
just able to show up in such a better way
than I do when I think, you know, the world
is happening to me instead of being like, no, I'm
happening to the world. Like we're in control of a
lot more than we think, and so so often we think, oh,
I have to go to this meeting, I have to
go to work today, I have to go to Sydney,
(28:34):
And it's reframing that to no, I get to go
to Sydney. And yes, you know, flying in and out
in a day might be tiring, but what an amazing
opportunity to be able to go and do whatever I'm
doing there, and then I think, Okay, well, it's pretty
awesome that someone you know cares about me enough to
want me to go to Sydney and meet them, Because
then when I go, I'm not going in this headspace
(28:55):
of I don't want to be here, I'm exhausted, I'm tired,
because that's going to pack the entire day. I'm going
to have a horrible experience one million percent.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
I want to ask you about something you You wrote
this really great post on LinkedIn, which I think it
was something like ten things I now know to be
true as a CEO, something like that. I'm paraphrasing, and
one of the things you wrote, I'll read it out
because I really loved it, and I'm curious as to
how how you apply this day to day. You said,
responding in an emotional state is never a good idea.
(29:25):
Always take a moment, a few minutes, an hour a day,
depending on how you feel and the response within your body,
before you respond, Wait until you can get into a
win win mindset instead of you versus the other person mindset.
Can you tell me about that? How did you learn
that lesson.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Oh, I mean, I've learned it many, many, many times.
I think when things happen, it might be that I
don't know, someone responded to something in a way that
you didn't feel was fair, or you're in a negotiation
and it's not feeling whatever it might be, usually because
it feels unfair, right, That's why we respond in that way,
and the first response, like our automatic res is, oh,
(30:01):
I need to tell them, like why they've made me
feel this way and why they're wrong and etc. There
is no way, like in the art of negotiation or
just generally approaching a conversation that if you approach a
conversation like that, you were going to get a good
outcome because you're going in wanting to I suppose you're
not really wanting to attack the other person, but that's
kind of how you're approaching it, because what you really
(30:22):
want if you step back, and it always comes back
to this, which is again in the moment. And that's
why I kind of said if it takes admitted an
hour a day, because sometimes things will trigger us into
a really intense emotional response, never ever, ever ever respond
in that time. It's I don't know any time in
my life when I've responded in that while I'm in
that feeling that it's been a good outcome, or if
(30:45):
we have got a good outcome, it's just taken so
long to get there. So step out and think, Okay, yes,
this person has really maybe it's a contract negotiation, they've
sent things through that have really offended you, like they
don't see my value, I'm being taken advantage of, etc.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Etc.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
So it's stepping back and being like, Okay, they have
responded in that way, so how I would have responded
like that's but I'm not going to take it personally.
I'm going to come back to what do I want
to get out of this and what do they want
to get out of it? And how can I respond
in a way to bring us closer to that outcome?
That will often help the other person to bring down
their guard, because if you go in with your guard
(31:24):
and you're in this attack mode, they are going to
straight get on the defense and negotiating with anyone or
having a conversation when someone is defensive is I mean,
we've all been in those situations. It's really difficult. Is
very very rare you will get anywhere.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Right how do you, I guess, almost take yourself down
off that cliff's edge when you're feeling like that to
calm yourself down, whether it's over a period of hours
or a day or more.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
I let myself feel the feelings. I think that's really important.
I think often we feel or we're told that we
have to. You know, we can't get upset, we can't
feel angry, they're fine. Like, you have to honor your emotions,
and when something triggers you, it's just a I suppose,
indication of something you really care about about yourself. So
I let myself feel the emotion, and depending on how
(32:11):
hard I'm feeling it, then I just I know if
I'm still like, if I'm still feeling that for a
long time, I know that I have to wait a
little bit longer. Usually I find a good night's sleep
will help me get out of that emotional state most
of the time, but I wait until I don't feel
super super triggered and I suppose attacked by it and
emotional about I let those emotions, I honor them, I
(32:31):
let them pass there. Of course, there are times when
it doesn't pass, and that's when I actually be like, okay,
we need to move forward, like coming back to again,
what is the outcome that they want? Like what's the
best outcome for them, what's the best outcome for me?
Like a win win mindset, and then like applying it
to that, and it is it's talking to people about it.
Talking it through always helps because I think sometimes we
can get in our head and we start making up
(32:53):
all of these assumptions and all of these stories. You know,
we always say, like the truth is there's one person
the other person's side, and then there's the truth right,
and sometimes too, what might happen? They might have triggered
something in you, and then you will then make up
this entire thing in your head that makes you really
angry and it keeps that emotion. But none of that
has happened. It's all made up in your head based
(33:15):
on how you think that personal responder or assumptions, etc.
So it's just being able to realize that if that's
lasting longer, what that is, step out of yourself and
then work through what am I trying to get out
of this? And what do they want? But it is,
as I said, it is much harder said than.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Done, isn't it. I want to finish with asking I
feel like you're the sort of person you know, given
how well well read you are and how thoughtful you are,
that you know perhaps has different mantras or sayings or
ways of being that perhaps a friend of mine at
different times in your life. I'd love to know right
now what is a mantra or a quote or something
(33:55):
like that that is serving you particularly well right now.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Oh, that's such a good thing. I think for me,
I'm still working through, as I said, like working on
confidence and removing self doubt is still something that I'm
working on. It's a journey. So the thing that right
now did I always come back to is that I
am good enough and I'm safe and that really helps me,
especially that I am safe part because I think I
(34:21):
don't know what it is, but it just makes me
feel calm when I say it and I believe it,
which is you know what we want to do when
we have a mantra.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Definitely, Laura, It's made such a joy having you on.
Thank you so much for sharing this last hour with me.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Thank you, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
I hope you love this chat with Laura as much
as I did. And I know some of it really
hit close to home, such as the need to be liked.
If you want to learn more about Laura, I highly
recommend checking out her podcast, Kickpod or the kick app.
I've put links to both of those in the show notes.
(35:01):
If you like today's show, make sure you get follow
on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.
How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of
the Warringery people, part of the Kulan nation.
How I work is having a little break over the
festive season, so I have handpicked a few of my
absolute favorite episodes from the last year to play for
you in this best of series. I hope you enjoy
and I will be back with new episodes twice weekly
from January twenty nine. Do you find yourself constantly trying
(00:21):
to ensure that people like you, maybe bending over backwards
to avoid giving bad news or make someone unhappy. But
what if the extra reassurance and the fear of being
too direct actually causing you more harm than good. Many
of us battle with some degree of people pleasing in
our personalities, and the negative consequences can appear both in
(00:45):
our personal and professional lives. To dive into this topic,
we are joined by Laura Henshaw to talk about how
she realized that her need to be liked was affecting
those working under her. Laura Henshaw is a dynamic force
in the health and wellness industry. As the co founder
(01:06):
and CEO of the incredibly successful kick app and community.
She leads a mission to reshape how people perceive wellness
and their relationship with themselves, and Laura is having a
massive impact with the kick app. Currently sitting at over
two point five million users and reaching people in over
one hundred and twenty countries. In this episode, we discuss
(01:30):
the ways that your people pleasing could be holding you back,
How Laura changed her people pleasing behavior, and how she
broke her destructive habit of reading comments from all the trolls.
Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals,
(01:53):
and strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor
Amantha Imber. In addition to her credible success, Laura is
a self confessed people pleaser, but she's done the work
to improve in that area. In fact, she did that
work with her coach, Jennie Martino, who helped her realize
(02:14):
how her need to be liked was affecting her work.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
The biggest thing that comes to mind is when I
met Janie. One of the biggest things holding me back
in when I say reaching my full potential as a leader.
I feel like we're always learning and growing, right, So
I'm definitely not there yet, and I hope I never
get there, because you want to keep growing and evolving.
But something that was holding me back a lot was
how much I cared about what people think or thought
(02:44):
and also my need to be liked by every single person,
when you need to be liked by everyone that you're leading,
if that's kind of something that and I didn't consciously
put it as a KPI, but subconsciously that was number
one before everything else, which isn't the best for anyone
(03:04):
at all, because then you're leading a lot of the
time in fear because you don't want to let anyone down.
You want people to like you, so giving feedback is
incredibly difficult. Feedback is obviously incredibly important for people growing
in their career, al so in being clear and where
you actually want the business to go and taking control
of it and executing the vision, the strategy, etc. But
(03:28):
I was so stuck in thinking that that mattered. And
I think for me, I have a lot of people
pleasing tendencies and I don't want to say that all
women do not have that, and that's great, And I
don't want anyone listening to think that, oh, because I'm
a woman, I must be a people pleaser, because I
don't think that's the case at all. But I think,
unfortunately maybe in gender stereotypical roles where more of the
(03:49):
care is or expected to be, etc. And so sometimes
it does come up, and so my people pleasing tendencies
really leaned into that need to be liked, and so
I've had to undo a lot of that, which Janey
helped me work through, and I have just like the
way that I'm able to lead now in comparison, when
I look back at that person, I'm like, oh, my goodness,
(04:11):
it's crazy. Like I do identify still with with myself
of you know, three or whatever years ago, two years ago,
but I just feel so different, like I've been let
free in being able to let that go.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
I feel like you've just described my twenty twenty four.
I want to know for you, though, Laura, if you
think back over the last three years and this big
shift that you've made, what are some of those practical
things that you did, all those mindset shifts that you
had to make that had the biggest difference.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Oh, it's such a good question, and it's great that
you've also been on the journey because I think a
lot of people have and will relate to this. For me,
and one of the questions Janie asked me was, and
we work through this in one of my I think
it was almost my first session with Jane, which was
why do you want to be liked? Like, why is
that important? And is that actually what is important to you?
(05:02):
And what we came out to is not, I don't.
It's not really about being liked per se, but it's
about being respected. And I think that was kind of
rooted in a lot of stuff for me. I know
we might touch today on imposter syndrome and kind of
being a young female leader. Also because of where my
career started was with social or part of it was
(05:23):
social media, and so for a very long time I
felt that I wasn't taken seriously. Well I wasn't. Actually,
I can It's not just what I thought. I was
not taken seriously by a lot of people that I
worked with.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
How did you know for sure?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Well, I mean there were times when I was in
rooms with people that I worked with that would describe
so often Steph and I as the marketing girls, and
it's like, no, we built this brand, we run this business, etc.
There's been multiple occasions where that has happened in different ways,
and I think at that time, I felt like I
just had to prove myself and I think because of
(06:00):
that kind of I've definitely worked through that and now
I know that like, that's on them. I don't have
to prove myself to anyone. But that definitely was a
big cause of why I then felt that I had
to kind of lead that way. And so for me,
it was kind of thinking about, Okay, I need to
be respected, that's what's important, and then it's unpacking Okay,
(06:21):
how do you get respect with your team? How do
you get respect with the people around you by being
a good leader and knowing that you can still lead
with empathy, because that's very, very very important to me.
But I think it was also the realization that it
is impossible to be liked by everyone because no matter what,
like I know that, you know, in running a business,
you and everyone that's listening that does most decisions you make,
(06:44):
there is going to be someone that's not going to
like the decision. It's very very rare we make decisions
where everyone agrees on it and is going to like
the outcome, right, especially when you're running a business. And
so it was also that realization that I was, well,
I'm setting myself up to fail because I can't actually
achieve this and I'm not driving the business, and in
my role as CEO of if I'm not driving the
(07:05):
business forward, then I shouldn't be in the role.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
How then, because I feel like one of the hardest
areas where this plays out is when you have to
have those tough conversations. And I mean I hate calling
them tough conversations. I try to think of them as
important conversations, as opposed to difficult conversations because it changes
the mindset. But they're hard. If you've got a high
need to be liked and you are delivering news that
(07:32):
someone else is going to find tough or confronting or
hard to take on board. How did you change your
approach to those kinds of conversations.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
I think realizing that in going in to be liked.
So there was one instance I remember I delivered something
to the team and Janie was there and she said,
because I had always thought like I have to do
a like a sandwich, I think this is something I
don't actually sandwich. I don't agree that I should be.
I don't think it's the best way to approachings, but
I used to. And the feedback I got was it
(08:03):
was almost like I made a sandwich, but it was
like with the thinnest slice of ham in the middle,
which is what I had to deliver, And then it
had like a hundred pieces of bread on both sides,
so no one got the message. No one's tasty because
I put so much stuff around it in the fear
that of the thing I was delivering. What that then
(08:24):
means is, I think, when you're delivering out of a
place of fear, if you don't believe in what you're
saying or feel that it's fair or whatever it might be,
how the heck is your team going to find it
also fair and believe in it back. So that's number
one thing. But what I then was able to navigate
through time was realizing the biggest I think one of
the biggest realizations for me was feedback is a kindness.
(08:46):
Being clear is kind That's the biggest thing. And there's
a book I can't remember the name of it. I
will find it once I finished this pod and I
can send it through to put in the show notes.
But it's fantastic And at the start of it there's
a chapter around an employee that never gets feedback. They're
the really likable person in the office. They contribute to culture.
Radical candor yes, radical canduct yes, yeah, who's the author?
(09:09):
Is it Kim Scott? Yes, Kim Scott, radical candor. That
first chapter made I recommend anyone that is struggling with
this right now to read that. It made such a
big impact for me because this person in this book
wasn't giving any given any feedback because everyone was trying
to avoid it because they liked them and they thought
that would be best for them. And then when they
were let go and they said, why didn't anyone tell me?
(09:30):
It's like stepping back and actually thinking about that, why
didn't anyone tell you? Because they were trying to protect you?
But in trying to protect you and be likable, you know,
to them, you then set them up to fail in
their role. And if people are coming to work with you,
I think I always feel like Kick, we're so lucky
to have the team that we have, and for people
to take time within their career path at KICK, you know,
(09:53):
and for us to be part of their journey is
a really special thing, and it's very important that we offer,
you know, career growth and development for those people. But
if we're not giving feedback on how they can improve
or being clear with our expectations, that's not the best
for them, and it's also not the best for the business.
And that's where another really really big lesson from Janey
(10:13):
has come in on communication and the power of being
clear and that you can do that with empathy. And
that's been a huge, huge lesson for me as well.
And you just as I said, like that sandwich with
the hundred slices of bread on each side, it doesn't
help anyone. And you just say, it is hard. You
walk into the room, you know you're having a hard conversation.
(10:35):
You just need to start it. Once you're in the conversation,
it's absolutely fine. It's kind of just that start part
where you fee uncomfortable, but you're also assuming what the
other person is going to do or how they're going
to react. You don't know. And so I think we
need to also give people the benefit of the doubt
in that situation that though they might be aligned with
this or they might take this on board, it's also
their choice if they take it on board or not, right,
(10:57):
but it is as leaders it is our responsibility to
share that with them.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
I want to ask in terms of this need to
be liked and how you've kind of shifted that into
you know, it's a need to be respected, I'm reminded of.
I thought it was such a powerful interview that you
gave on the Imperfect, So I want to say that
was late twenty twenty three maybe, And during that interview
you spoke about how you read the comments online, all
(11:24):
of them, and Steph, your business partner and best friend,
doesn't and I remember being really surprised but curious. Has
your behavior changed in light of, I guess, trying to
manage your people pleasing ways? Or do you still do that? Oh?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Great question. I'm very proud to say that I don't
do that anymore.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
How did you stop?
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I mean, I working through all of this, and I
suppose it's kind of separate to my leadership journey per se,
but it'll write it. It all comes together and links in.
I tried to and have been on a journey to
stop caring about what people think. And Brene Brown talks
about this a lot, and it's one of my favorite
pieces of work that she has done when she talks
(12:06):
about people in the arena and if someone is not
in the arena with you, getting their butt kicked like
their opinion. I've definitely butchered this. But Essentially, it's like
their opinion doesn't matter because they're up sitting just watching
and observing. And I think what I was doing was
thinking that. For me, it comes down to growing up.
Something that I valued myself on a lot was being
(12:28):
a hard worker. And so that's something that I'm trying
to undo as an adult now because I think often
what I do is I hide behind the fact that
I work hard because then I don't have to think about, well,
hang on, what value do I add here? It's like, well,
I'm a hard worker. That's the value that I add.
But if I strip that back and I don't do that,
which can lead to burnout and you can't work, you know,
(12:51):
sixteen hours a day for the rest of your life
every single day. It's too much, you know, ebbs and flows,
and sometimes I'll be busy weeks and less busy weeks.
But I have had to rip that back, and I
think a part of that was there's a book called Burnout.
It's fantastic. There's one page that's about the whip and
I just I just related to it so much when
(13:11):
I read it, and essentially what they talk about is
and it's mainly aimed at women this book. For a
lot of people, we feel that we have to seek
out this like I was these trolling comments because the
reason I was seeking them out is because I feel
like I have to continue working hard, I have to
continue improving. And so if I would read it, it
was almost this fuel of the fire of Okay, I'm
(13:32):
not good enough yet. I have to keep in the book.
The way they talk about it is it's a whip.
I have to keep whipping myself because then if you
pull back and what they talk about in the book
and you look at where you've what you've built, or
how you in your career, where you've got to, and
you know with what we've built with Kick, I look
back and I think, Okay, the reason I have got
here is because of the whip. So if I put
(13:53):
the whip down and I stop fueling myself through all
of these kind of horrible trolling comments online, constantly trying
to be better and better and better, I won't have
any drive, and therefore I won't be able to continue
to grow. Then it's been working through like that is
not the reason that I have got to where I
am today and unpacking that, but it has been really,
(14:15):
really hard to do that, and it also depends, like
I feel like our confidence ebbs and flows, and I
know when you think of like the most kind of
corny Pinterest quote, it's like confidence is not a destination.
It's a journey. I know, and I can see like
the clouds around it. But it's true, right, you can
never ever, ever stop working on yourself. And so sometimes
I will go through stages where I feel tempted to
(14:36):
go and look at those comments and take them on board.
But I have done a lot of work on myself
to now have so many tools to not go and
do that and know that how hard I work has
nothing to do with how worthy I am as a
person and that I'm you know, capable of deserving of things.
(14:57):
That's been really hard to work through, but that has
been so important and in truly believing like within myself
to be able to kind of get through that stuff.
And I definitely still have self doubt, but it does
not control me like it used to.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Like that sounds absolutely phenomenal what you've done, Laura. That
is such a huge change to achieve. I don't know you,
but I feel proud, you.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Know, thank you. It's very kind.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
How then, do you know when enough is enough? At work?
I mean, you know, you're like this amazing mascot for
well being. You know, that's that's who you are, that's
what Kick is. Yet you're a business owner, you're a CEO,
you do obviously have an amazing work ethic, and you've
got friends and family. How do you know then when
(15:42):
enough is enough on a day to day or week
to week basis.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Well, I have to start by saying sometimes I don't
and this is something I'm absolutely working through. So I
do not have this down pattern perfect. But for me,
what I have learned is when I don't stop and
I don't have anything outside of work, first of all,
like the impact that that then puts me back in
a fear driven mindset because one hundred and ten percent
of my focus is on work, and so my full
(16:07):
fulfillment in my life is based on what happens, you know,
with Kick and running a business, Like the one thing
that is guaranteed is that stuff's going to go wrong.
Like that's the one thing. There's something else is guaranteed.
There's gonna be things that you're going to come up
against that you maybe have never solved before or are
really really going to challenge you like that is guaranteed
right as we know in anyone that's a business owner
will also know that. And so because of that, if
(16:30):
I have all of my eggs in the basket of work,
I am then operating knowing that I have to keep
going and going and going because this is the only
way I'm going to get fulfilment. And if something goes wrong,
controlling your emotional reaction within yourself and they're not going
down a path of for me really getting deep in
that self doubt mindset, but also a shame mindset in
(16:52):
that you know something might go wrong not go the
way that I wanted it to. I now am much
better at reframing into you know, this didn't go the
way I wanted it to. Here's my learnings. I'm moving
on instead of saying I am stupid, or I am dumb,
or I'm not good enough. Because what happens when you're
in that mindset or I have found, is that it
is so hard to get out of it. And once
(17:14):
you spiral it might start in one element of your
work or your job, it will spread into every element
of your life unless you and your work, and then
it will start to spread out psyche cancer unless you
take control of it. And so for me, I know
that if I have all of my eggs in the
basket of work and I work every single day and
don't take any breaks, that's kind of where I will
(17:35):
be end up. And that's not the best thing for me,
for the company, for anyone that I work with, because sometimes,
like you know, back, this has not happened for a
long time, but I've had spirals that have lasted like
six seven months, and that is so much time to
lose because when you don't believe in yourself and you're
trying to move a company forward, it's very, very, very difficult.
(17:56):
And so that's been one of the biggest things. And
then the other thing is is understand So having things
outside of work is very important, but then understanding as well.
If I push push, push, I'm not going to be
able to show up as my best self the next day.
My brain doesn't work as well. I get brain fog.
I find it really hard to focus on deep work.
I find it really hard to actually step back and
(18:17):
actually work out what am I working on that's impactful,
because you get so stuck in the weeds and just
on this kind of wheel of got to keep going,
got to keep going, and then you're actually again not
making impact. That's what's important, right, and so it's stepping
back and being able to do that. But it's definitely
something like, as I say this, I don't always get
(18:38):
it right.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
When you recognize that you're in a spiral. What has
worked for you in the past in terms of breaking
out of that, either quickly or slowly.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I think it's understanding shame has been one of the
biggest things Brene Brown. I reference her so much. She's
just incredible. Her work is for me personally, has made
such an impact. She has a book. It's got a
red cover. It's essentially all about different emotions and the
definitions Atlas of the heart, so you know all of them.
Amazing at of that. I highly recommend that book to
(19:10):
anyone that's listening because the way she defines and kind
of speaks through shame really help me understand what it is.
And I think when you understand what it is, it
is easier to call it out when it's happening. And
so what I sometimes I don't do this, but what
I try to do and what I find really works
is trying to step out from the situation and separate
(19:33):
from myself, like the way I'm talking to myself that
I'm not good enough, because I know how it feels.
And when I start feeling that way, I'm like, Okay,
hang on, I need to look like what's going on
in my brain, what's going on in my mind? And
I'm able to take those thoughts and almost like visualize
separating them from myself and then identifying that, Okay, I
have not all of a sudden lost my entire brain
(19:54):
capacity forgotten how to do my job and have just become,
you know, not be able to do anything that has
not happened. Now, while that's what I'm telling myself in
my head that has not happened, this is actually shame
and I need to get out of this, and then
I will reframe it away from you know, I am
not good enough to This didn't go the way that
I wanted. Here's my learnings. I'm going to move forward.
(20:16):
As I said, it's easier said than done, and sometimes
it does take a few days to be able to
kind of separate that. But it's coming back to focusing
on the present, because when you're doing that, you're just
caught up in you know, what's happened in the past,
and you're making stories up in your head, trying to
come back and cent to yourself and come back to
the present and taking those thoughts out from that and
(20:37):
working through them.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
How do you know when you're in a spiral? Like
can you think of a time when I don't know
you were last in it, or when it was particularly
hard to get out of?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
How do you know how it feels in my body?
I feel my chest is tight, I feel sad, and
I feel like really demotivated and maybe not depressed per se,
but just really down. And I know that that's not
how I usually feel, Like our body tells us. We know,
like how you feel is everything, And that's something that
(21:07):
in terms of going back to the advice that Jennie
has shared for me and what I've learned the most
from her, like that's one of the biggest things, is
going back to how do you feel? Like it's one
of the questions that comes up out of almost anything
that you're kind of working through, and so I know
what that feeling is and I can identify that, and
then it's yet working out how to get out of it.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
You spoke about not having all the balls in the
one basket, in the work basket. What actions do you
take where you feel like it is leaning that way, Like,
what are the steps that you've taken in the past
to be more balanced and I guess reduce the chance
of burnout and being in one of these virals.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
At first, it's acknowledging that all of my eggs are
in the work basket, which I mean again, for anyone listening,
it's pretty hard to do that, and especially when sometimes
I think we get in this almost marta mindset of
I have to all my eggs have to be in
this basket? Do they? Why are you just telling yourself
that probably that's usually what the answer is, but I
think will have to do this, well, why do you?
(22:07):
Probably not, You're just in this spiral, And so I
kind of step back and I look at, Okay, what
And especially for me as well, like one of my
kind of hobbies per se is running, but running is
also a big part of my work and making content,
and so I've had to also be quite honest with
myself because sometimes I'm like, oh, no, I've got my running,
but it's like, well, no, running is also technically a
(22:29):
part of my work, because you know, we've got the
Kick Growing program and Kick and all the content that
I create out of that. So I step back and
I think, Okay, well what am I doing outside of
work to fill my cut back up? And one of
the things I often find will kind of go off
and I don't know if this is the same for you,
that I will kind of first just put in the
bin per se is social time, because I think I
(22:51):
don't have time to do that. And you also, sometimes
when you feel exhausted, maybe because of work or whatever,
it might be the last thing you want to do
is go out for dinner or go and speak to
more people because you just want to be by yourself.
But you actually need to get out and do that.
And for me, it's been really really acknowledging that that
social time that fills my cup like that is recharging,
(23:13):
even though it's with people and solo time is very important,
but connection is also a way to fill like up
that sometimes I think when we get caught up in
our own heads, we just put it off and cancel
it because we don't think that we can show up.
But that's actually what helps well for me recharge my batteries.
So it's looking at, Okay, what am I doing, and
it's what am I spending time on?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
It.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Something that I always love to think about when it
comes to hobbies or just things that can take my
mind off just the grind of the day, is what
have I done lately? Where I didn't look at the time,
and time just passed by and I didn't even realize,
and I wasn't thinking about like, oh I need to
be productive after this, or you know, I'm only going
to do this for an hour. I didn't even notice
(23:54):
and the day passed. I mean, I don't do a
lot of it, but when I've done pottery before, that's
something that happens. When I spend time with kids, like often,
that's also what happens painting and reading, and so I
try to get those things back in my life. But
it's important to acknowledge as well that sometimes there are
periods where work will take a lot from you. And
(24:15):
it's accepting that and honoring that, because I think when
we try and fight it, it can just make it worse.
But just trying to make sure we're really honest with
ourselves if we say I don't have time to do
anything for myself. It's really asking like why and if
you can trying to do something, otherwise you won't show
up one hundred percent when you get to work. Anyway,
(24:36):
we will.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Be back with Laura soon, and when we return, Laura
shares the rituals and habits that keep her from overloading
on work, why it's crucial to avoid responding from an
emotional state, and her top tip for starting the week
strong to ensure you actually get things done. If you're
(24:57):
looking for more tips to improve the way you I
can live. I write a short weekly newsletter that contains
tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You can
sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha
dot com. I am curious as to how then you
(25:20):
stay disciplined with making sure that you do have time
for these other non work activities, because I think you know,
and I say this as someone who I think could
do with working less hours. It's kind of it's easy
to say and it's easy to know, but then it's
hard to do. And so I can share with you
something that I have found quite useful because I agree
with social connection, it's such an energizer. And I've got
(25:44):
my family. I've got my beautiful daughter, a beautiful partner,
and they're amazing friends that are so important. I'm an only child,
and so my friends are like family. And I have
a little ritual that I generally do it on Mondays
where I will just send a bunch of messages to
my friends and get social catch ups in the diary.
And I know that if I've got at least one
(26:04):
or two friend catch ups that might be a walk,
or it might be a meal or something else, then
that's a good week. I'm feeling my social cup for you, Like,
do you have any rituals or kind of little hacks
like that that almost keep you honest away from just
overloading on work.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Oh, that's such a good thing to do, especially at
the start of the week. I think for me, it's
scheduling in at the start of the week. Like that's
the biggest hack that we can do for ourselves, because
if you don't, you never set yourself up for success,
because then you don't have any boundaries kind of in
your day. You haven't set your routine up, and then
you will every time. I mean, it's the same thing
with moving your body right. If you don't prepare, if
(26:45):
you wake up in the morning and you don't know
what workout you're going to do, you haven't got your
clothes out, you haven't really allowed yourself enough time, and
you haven't thought through it and planned. It is so
easy to be like, oh it's too hard, I'm just
going to keep sleeping, or I'm just going to hit
to work early, or whatever might be. And it's the
same thing right with everything with planning. So for me
with movement, it's making sure I've worked out where that's
(27:08):
going to fit in my week, because if I haven't
the week, we'll just override it. And doing that at
the start of the week. And then also the social thing.
I try and make sure I have one kind of
social connection thing during the week and then one on
the weekend as well. And it's making the effort to
put that in right and sometimes I know and I can. Again,
it comes back to how I feel in my body,
(27:28):
Like when I start feeling down and tired and that
feeling like close to burnout, I look at a hang on.
If I look back at the past month or whatever,
I haven't done the things that I know can help
me work through this, so I don't always do it,
but that's a really good hack.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I want to pick up on what you said before
about Sydney, where you have to go to Sydney. No,
you get to go to Sydney. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Oh, I mean that's perspective? Is everything right? And I
think when we get caught up in the busyness of
like how many times do you ask someone how they're
going and they say busy? And I really try not
to do that because I like focusing on perspective and
then coming back to gratitude. When I focus on gratitude,
(28:13):
I'm able to be so much more present, and I'm
just able to show up in such a better way
than I do when I think, you know, the world
is happening to me instead of being like, no, I'm
happening to the world. Like we're in control of a
lot more than we think, and so so often we think, oh,
I have to go to this meeting, I have to
go to work today, I have to go to Sydney,
(28:34):
And it's reframing that to no, I get to go
to Sydney. And yes, you know, flying in and out
in a day might be tiring, but what an amazing
opportunity to be able to go and do whatever I'm
doing there, and then I think, Okay, well, it's pretty
awesome that someone you know cares about me enough to
want me to go to Sydney and meet them, Because
then when I go, I'm not going in this headspace
(28:55):
of I don't want to be here, I'm exhausted, I'm tired,
because that's going to pack the entire day. I'm going
to have a horrible experience one million percent.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
I want to ask you about something you You wrote
this really great post on LinkedIn, which I think it
was something like ten things I now know to be
true as a CEO, something like that. I'm paraphrasing, and
one of the things you wrote, I'll read it out
because I really loved it, and I'm curious as to
how how you apply this day to day. You said,
responding in an emotional state is never a good idea.
(29:25):
Always take a moment, a few minutes, an hour a day,
depending on how you feel and the response within your body,
before you respond, Wait until you can get into a
win win mindset instead of you versus the other person mindset.
Can you tell me about that? How did you learn
that lesson.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Oh, I mean, I've learned it many, many, many times.
I think when things happen, it might be that I
don't know, someone responded to something in a way that
you didn't feel was fair, or you're in a negotiation
and it's not feeling whatever it might be, usually because
it feels unfair, right, That's why we respond in that way,
and the first response, like our automatic res is, oh,
(30:01):
I need to tell them, like why they've made me
feel this way and why they're wrong and etc. There
is no way, like in the art of negotiation or
just generally approaching a conversation that if you approach a
conversation like that, you were going to get a good
outcome because you're going in wanting to I suppose you're
not really wanting to attack the other person, but that's
kind of how you're approaching it, because what you really
(30:22):
want if you step back, and it always comes back
to this, which is again in the moment. And that's
why I kind of said if it takes admitted an
hour a day, because sometimes things will trigger us into
a really intense emotional response, never ever, ever ever respond
in that time. It's I don't know any time in
my life when I've responded in that while I'm in
that feeling that it's been a good outcome, or if
(30:45):
we have got a good outcome, it's just taken so
long to get there. So step out and think, Okay, yes,
this person has really maybe it's a contract negotiation, they've
sent things through that have really offended you, like they
don't see my value, I'm being taken advantage of, etc.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Etc.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
So it's stepping back and being like, Okay, they have
responded in that way, so how I would have responded
like that's but I'm not going to take it personally.
I'm going to come back to what do I want
to get out of this and what do they want
to get out of it? And how can I respond
in a way to bring us closer to that outcome?
That will often help the other person to bring down
their guard, because if you go in with your guard
(31:24):
and you're in this attack mode, they are going to
straight get on the defense and negotiating with anyone or
having a conversation when someone is defensive is I mean,
we've all been in those situations. It's really difficult. Is
very very rare you will get anywhere.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Right how do you, I guess, almost take yourself down
off that cliff's edge when you're feeling like that to
calm yourself down, whether it's over a period of hours
or a day or more.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
I let myself feel the feelings. I think that's really important.
I think often we feel or we're told that we
have to. You know, we can't get upset, we can't
feel angry, they're fine. Like, you have to honor your emotions,
and when something triggers you, it's just a I suppose,
indication of something you really care about about yourself. So
I let myself feel the emotion, and depending on how
(32:11):
hard I'm feeling it, then I just I know if
I'm still like, if I'm still feeling that for a
long time, I know that I have to wait a
little bit longer. Usually I find a good night's sleep
will help me get out of that emotional state most
of the time, but I wait until I don't feel
super super triggered and I suppose attacked by it and
emotional about I let those emotions, I honor them, I
(32:31):
let them pass there. Of course, there are times when
it doesn't pass, and that's when I actually be like, okay,
we need to move forward, like coming back to again,
what is the outcome that they want? Like what's the
best outcome for them, what's the best outcome for me?
Like a win win mindset, and then like applying it
to that, and it is it's talking to people about it.
Talking it through always helps because I think sometimes we
can get in our head and we start making up
(32:53):
all of these assumptions and all of these stories. You know,
we always say, like the truth is there's one person
the other person's side, and then there's the truth right,
and sometimes too, what might happen? They might have triggered
something in you, and then you will then make up
this entire thing in your head that makes you really
angry and it keeps that emotion. But none of that
has happened. It's all made up in your head based
(33:15):
on how you think that personal responder or assumptions, etc.
So it's just being able to realize that if that's
lasting longer, what that is, step out of yourself and
then work through what am I trying to get out
of this? And what do they want? But it is,
as I said, it is much harder said than.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Done, isn't it. I want to finish with asking I
feel like you're the sort of person you know, given
how well well read you are and how thoughtful you are,
that you know perhaps has different mantras or sayings or
ways of being that perhaps a friend of mine at
different times in your life. I'd love to know right
now what is a mantra or a quote or something
(33:55):
like that that is serving you particularly well right now.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Oh, that's such a good thing. I think for me,
I'm still working through, as I said, like working on
confidence and removing self doubt is still something that I'm
working on. It's a journey. So the thing that right
now did I always come back to is that I
am good enough and I'm safe and that really helps me,
especially that I am safe part because I think I
(34:21):
don't know what it is, but it just makes me
feel calm when I say it and I believe it,
which is you know what we want to do when
we have a mantra.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Definitely, Laura, It's made such a joy having you on.
Thank you so much for sharing this last hour with me.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Thank you, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
I hope you love this chat with Laura as much
as I did. And I know some of it really
hit close to home, such as the need to be liked.
If you want to learn more about Laura, I highly
recommend checking out her podcast, Kickpod or the kick app.
I've put links to both of those in the show notes.
(35:01):
If you like today's show, make sure you get follow
on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.
How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of
the Warringery people, part of the Kulan nation.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!